Latest / The Innovation Philosophie Podcast / The Sameness Trap: Why Industries Converge and Founders Build Copycats
Transcript
- speaker-0: Hello and welcome to the Innovation Philosophy Podcast, the show where we look at the economics of innovation and the conditions that produce genuinely new ideas. I'm one of your hosts, Nathan Reardon, and I'm joined by Pat Villasaran. Today, we are talking about the sameness trap. Every innovation cycle starts with a promise of radical differentiation, but if you watch an emerging market for long enough, something strange happens. The diversity of ideas shrinks, the unique theses get sanded down. And startups across an entire sector begin to look and act almost identically. We're going to be breaking down why entire industries converge on the exact same ideas and how even smart founders get tricked into building copycats. So to start us off then, Pat, what exactly is the sameness trap? Is it more than just copying other successful businesses? speaker-1: That's an amazing, amazing question, Nathan. And for those who are here on the very first episode of Innovation Philosophy, warmest welcome to you guys. I am Pat, and we are going to talk about so many amazing things that would equip you as a founder to understand what it takes to create a business, a venture, and a concept. That lasts a lifetime. When we talk about, we're gonna talk about sameness, Nathan, in as extensively as possible in this episode. But I want to define a premise on what innovation is at the very beginning, because this has been an overloaded, overused word that most do not understand because when they see what is the marketed packaged version of innovation. And these are just Silicon Valley startups. Innovation might be probably copy pasting something and then, you know, adding in 10 more features and then we call that innovation. Innovation at its core, Nathan, is an ability to have number one, discernment on what exists first. And I'm gonna come down onto your question, but that's we start with that first. You have to understand what exists first right now, before you're able to really find the thing that does not exist right now, so you could provide that solution. That is what innovation is versus versus the concept of optimization. For the past 50 years, we're gonna, you know, kind of like do a little bit of a U-turn before we go to the sameness trap because that's where it's coming into. For the last 50 plus plus years for the four from the Ford industries and like creating this kind of pipeline on how businesses should be run from the eight to five. And now there's this big divergence of how work should be done remotely across the world, multi-dimensional, multicultural, multi-geographical, right? That has evolved So massively because of the changing identity of what work means. And so when we go back to the concept of innovation, let's think about Nathan. Let's go back a little bit to history and let's think about the idea of when there was no light and electricity just yet. No light, no electricity. Yes, for sure. Let's go back to the time when there was already fire, lamps had existed, but no electricity. So really, the idea that humans, we need light to survive a little bit longer, right? And have that life outside of sunrise and all of these things. What does not exist, what did not exist at the time, was the ability for light to be expanded whenever we need it to, and as as conveniently as we need it to. So that is where the concept of electricity had come about. There was a need, Nathan. There was a need for something, then innovation had to happen. Innovation had to inevitably happen. That is the difference. That is the difference versus optimization. Because then, when the innovation of light and electricity had come about, then optimization is just about all of the different shades of light. The bigger the light is, which is the more cost-effective light. What type of light? What what are the sources of light? And now we're in this age of like solar sources. Before it was, it wasn't that. So in innovation philosophy, yes, we can you there's so many podcasts out there, there's so many resources out there about the concept of business. So many amazing business schools that would cover this as extensively as possible. But when we talk about Nathan, when we talk about innovation, it's that the electricity had not existed just yet. And so if we talk about the same yes. speaker-0: Brand new idea. Not just like you said, tweaking something and putting something else on top of something or giving it a shiny new coat of paint. Something that didn't exist yesterday and today, bam, it's there. And then it can be copied and altered. speaker-1: Iterated, optimized, exactly, exactly. We take a look at the best, the best and most innovative companies in the world in our lifetime right now. You've got Apple, you've got Elon Musk, and you've got these amazing, amazing plethora of innovators. However, again, I would I would boldly say that that word is wildly oversaturated and overused. Because innovation, again. On the categorical sense of it, innovation is that. how do you, and even for even for Tesla, the company itself, it's not a car company, it is a technology integrating solar, electricity, all of these concepts in, interpreted in the vehicle that is the car. It's not necessarily they didn't make another Toyota. They didn't make another all of these things. And so this is what I'm saying for founders. If you start with innovation first, now everyone's doing now Toyota, who was supposed to be the pioneer. Now Ford, who was supposed to be the pioneer, is now developing hybrid cars, electric cars. Why? Because someone else innovated the idea first. speaker-0: Okay, so you're saying that like the the the concept of the smart car is in itself innovation. It isn't just the upgrade of a car. speaker-1: Because the the car industry had existed for so long, how many decades before Elon Musk had stepped in and said there's another way to go about it. There's another way to go about this thing, and we're not looking at it from a bigger perspective. And he's always, he's always innovating. If there's one greatest innovator in our time and there's a lot of things, okay, about Elon Musk that is probably up for debate, but for today. And especially in this concept, in this conversation, in this podcast, we're going to talk about how he innovated a lot of these things. And so if we take a look at that on the concept of innovation alone, the one thing that I will tell you for those who are listening to this episode is this innovation, it is a a skill. There are people out there who can think like this, right? Da Vinci is one of my favorites. Da Vinci has always been one of my favorites. However, there is, I will tell you, Nathan, there is a framework on how you can teach your mind to think like this. And we we are going to talk about the sameness aspect, but we have to set the foundation first of like, okay. So this is an innovation is something that you think about, conceptualize about first because it takes a lot of thinking. It takes a lot of consideration. It takes a lot of boldness and courage to do that trial and error. Because again, innovation doesn't happen when innovation will never happen if you're always playing it safe. It will never happen if your only route is to play it safe. Because then that's what other people are doing. There's no, there's no big risk, there's no big reward. You don't don't don't don't then try to innovate, Nathan. Don't use the word innovation. If your point is optimization, business narrative, and finding the best ROI for something, that is not innovation. You're an amazing, you're you have amazing business acumen. Amazing. Congratulations to you. Innovation is a different ballgame, is what I'm saying. speaker-0: so in that case, is it possible for you to be creating your product and then you're quite a ways down the line, you've got a pretty solid idea of what you're going to do, what you're gonna create, what you're gonna provide. But then you listen to something like this and you think, I want to innovate. Do you have to start from the very beginning or can you pivot what you're already producing into something that is more innovative or is it very much from a from from day one you're innovating. speaker-1: That is really good. That is really, really, really good question, Nathan. Because a lot of the founders who would be listening to innovation philosophy, they've already got things pinned down. They already thought that this is the thing that they're gonna make happen is the most amazing, most innovative. It's the the founders, we think like that. That the thing that we're making is an invention in of itself. And so What I have to bring us back into is the concept of light before and electricity before it basically started. Tesla now is a big con part of our conversation. And innovation is a scientific experiment. And so if you're already in the trenches of it, you must require yourself to take a step back and always, always, always think. Because if you're always in the grub of the execution, what is happening is you're just thinking how to optimize the flow of the website, how to optimize user experience, how to do the marketing of it. Those are very important things. Those are important things and how to build something. But if you want to break into the market of innovation, if you want to be a massive standout from the Crowd, you always need to take probably 10 steps back higher. And when I say higher with a little bit more elevation, 10 steps, because usually we say 10 steps back as an analogy and in a reference. And usually people from a thinking perspective, they use that to say, okay, let's pause a little bit and let's see what the 10 steps from before, how did we arrive to this. Action in state right now. What did we do right and what did we do wrong? 10 steps up, Nathan, means that we you have to take a look at your product here and pull in 10 different sources. So you have 10 different perspectives helping you solve that problem. Let's let's put that a little bit more tangible. Yeah? You're a startup founder, you're building an app. You're building an app that would help people fall asleep better and have like really, really high quality of sleep. Because sleep is important. It's very important. It's very important. Cognitive function, everything. It's holistic. Sleep is so critical, right? So this app is, is from the concept of it, from the function, mission, vision of it, should have been, should have been so innovative because sleep is that critical. Everyone needs sleep. But how do I innovate from there? Outside of the function of it, I've done my research. Pat, how do what is innovation around sleep? Okay. This is probably going to be a free idea for someone who's already doing the thing and is a part of our innovation philosophy listeners. So welcome, welcome, come on in. but I would, if you if you take 10 steps, just 10 steps back, what you would normally do is do your market research. What are the existing competitors? What are the Doing the thing with traditional, Nathan. Traditional. But innovators usually come from a different perspective. And you're gonna see this as a pattern. Innovators would come from a wholly unrelated silo on that industry. And that is the reason why they are the ones who break the industry out. The same as car making. There has been this connotation of this has been the way we've done it again and again and again. So if someone comes in and says, but why is someone else not doing it this way? Just that question alone is worth what now? Trillions of dollars. That question alone is worth that. And we need the reason, Nathan, the reason why you and I started Innovation Philosophy Podcast is the world has boundless problems. And I want innovators. To solve that, not from a sameness perspective, but from this. Because I believe everyone ever so talented and so intelligent and so charismatic. And we've got founders have this. So many things and so many qualities that qualify you as a founder. But the education out there is hustle, hustle it through. Hustle it, don't hustle it. Yes, that those are right now, 2026 to 2027, that's a given. You wanna be an entrepreneur? That's a forgive my French. We're gonna this is an explicit podcast either way, but forgive my fucking French. But that's a fucking kind of like the that's base. You wanna be a founder? You wanna be an entrepreneur? That's the base awareness you should have. That's it. You don't you don't want You know, no holidays. You don't want all of these. I wanna secure nine to five. Do not. My dear found, do not go in here. This is not why we do it. Don't even try to step your foot in here. No, because one failure is gonna break you. One year of failure is gonna fucking break you. Just don't. Just stop right there. If you feel like I need it, like if you feel and you see that, and it's not we we see this a lot in social media, Nathan, of like, I've done this, I've done a million, and I've done a thin, and then you just post on social media. Those are amazing surface level tips. Most of these things are, I am not delineating it so hard. The thing, the thing that they have achieved, there's so many things that people do not see in the shadows of it, in the back end of it, that they that do not get posted on social media. So before you judge someone who's done it, a million followers and whatnot, they have done the work. So credit where credit is due. Credit where credit is due. However, when it comes to the concept of like I wanna innovate something. I want something about sleep. This is a big market, yes for sure. But innovation, even from a conceptual basis. is looking at it, Nathan, like this, okay? So diverse, perspective so diverse that you're not just looking at the statistic of male and female when it comes to sleep is this. And so women actually need this. Yes, for sure. These are again. If that's a problem you're trying to solve, amazing, amazing, go for it. I believe in you, go for it, founder. But the conversation is about innovation. literally groundbreaking society defining innovation. And so when you do that, you have to think about, did you know that before the Ford industries had come about an eight to five structure, that human beings actually have a biphasic sleep? So that means, Nathan, that human beings usually sleep very early. Right? Because if sunset, there's no electricity at the time, but there's, you know, like candles and very, very, very basic. And for those who would be experts on this, I'm not sure if I'm using the term right biphasic, but it technically means that you sleep for like about four hours and everyone goes up, Nathan. Everyone goes up like twelve to one a.m. and have conversations, have, you know, like drink something or eat something for about two hours. And then fall asleep again for the next four or five hours in. So the concept of a continuous, right? The concept of a continuous seven to eight hours of sleep, that was not invented until the Ford Industries had come in and said, we need people who are gonna work in the factory. They need this full sleep, so we can't do that. So we need to introduce something in society that would train you. sleep that long. So you could work this full eight hours without stopping. speaker-0: That'll be wild. speaker-1: Exactly. Honestly, right? No. Yeah. Right. speaker-0: That's yeah, that's quite a wild way of thinking about things when especially if, you know, you don't get to sleep until after twelve, you know, you'd speaker-1: That is true. And you're in your brain, you're speaker-0: Mm. speaker-1: And so if you take a look at that, right? So now you're citing a different study. And I say I say ten steps, ten steps up, right? And so if you and then you integrate, you integrate holistic wellness, Nathan, right? What does that really mean? What does that mean? How does that are are there existing studies then that support this versus a full eight hours of sleep? Or is it because that We have accustomed in this new way of life as a society, that then we need this eight hours of sleep. So now you have full-on 20 different questions, Nathan, that you're answering versus this person needs a deep sleep, give them medical stuff, give them supplements. Manipulate the human body. Because that's what those things are for. That was the problem that we they were trying to solve, right? But if you're innovating really in the sleep app, how innovative is this? Right? Just think about just think about that. What is the kind of sleep that actually works for a human being? Because we're so diverse. Even from our DNA, our sources, and biology, it's so diverse for you to be spouting. Everyone needs eight hours of sleep. Yes, for sure. If there's data that supports that, we listen, better better listen to science. Right? Because the point is longevity in the game. But if you want to innovate something, those are the questions now. Now you're not looking now, Nathan, as a founder, as a someone who's developing your own app, it's gonna be a billion-dollar idea, right? It's the most innovative sleep app in the entire world. now you have a different set of questions to ask. So when you're problem solving that app, it is no longer about Are you a male or female? And then the app makes it blue and makes it pink if you're male and female. What is your sleep patterns? And then I integrate that with my Apple Watch, and then I can watch you sleep. It's the same. It's the sameness trap. The sameness trap could be cut, Nathan, by taking 10 steps up. speaker-0: just having a completely different perspective with different inputs from places that you would just never think to look. speaker-1: It's the looking that matters in innovation. It's the looking that matters. If you don't look at this corner, it's like photography, Nathan. And you're an actor, you're you're amazing at this. Photography allows you to be able to kind of focus in that one angle and one angle alone, even though it's a table. But having a different low angle, high angle, it gives you a whole new different perspective. Other than this is a table with Four legs and a wooden top. Most people look at problem solving from that perspective. That's a table, four four corners, four chairs, four corners, four chairs. But if you take a look at that from a different perspective, your essence then of that table means that. Look at this, Nathan. Okay. This is how innovation framework thinking then happens. You got a table. Traditional ones, right? Really, really good. It's there, there's some business to it, but like that's not that's not the point of this conversation. The point is innovation. Yeah. Four table four corners, one table, four legs. Therefore, therefore, problem solve this, four chairs. Four chairs on that table. But if you do like ten, ten steps up, multiple different divergent thinking of it, yeah, what then happens is hmm, four corners, there are human beings who are going to sit on this table. If my goal is intimacy, connectivity, and human relationships. How big should the table be? How close should the people in that table sit? How far away should I make that happen? Is this a table that denotes power? Is this a table that denotes camaraderie and friendship and equality? What is this table for? speaker-0: And then you've got loads of different kinds of table. speaker-1: Now we've got IKEA. Now we've got IKEA, who is one of the most exciting innovators too in the industry. Because they looked at that from a whole new different perspective. And so this is Nathan, this is kind of like my call to the founders out there. Because if you're already spending time, if you're already spending time coding the thing, marketing your startup. Doing the reels that we never had to do before as founders, putting yourself out in social media might as well, might as well build something that actually creates impact and change. You're already doing it. You're already doing it, Mason. And so, even one of the pillars, right, for innovation philosophy, social impact and overall impact, people, purpose, and planet. Right. So if you're already doing that, if we go back to the conversation around the tables and what you want to solve is a loneliness epidemic. What's what does that table look like, Nathan? What does that table feel like? So people can be no, it's so it's so powerful because I don't know what your dining table looks like, Nathan, but I would assume it's rectangle. speaker-0: Yes it is. speaker-1: So when you have people over, there are more chairs on the table, right? But if it is around the conversation of innovation and the loneliness epidemic, I just have so many ideas to it. Like what if there's like a four table and it's warm and soft on the edges, and then you put that in the middle of the park and the table has the simple word in the middle nay saying. It's it's a public project, you know, like something that you put in the park. four e equal sides of the table and it just says let's talk. Strangers Sitting down. Let's talk. speaker-0: So innovation can be in this instance taking something incredibly basic like a table, but completely redesigning it from a from a like you said, a very a much wider lens. You know, because if you're so if you're zo so zoomed in, all you're gonna see is just a wooden just a slab of wood. You zoom out a bit, it's a table. Do you zoom out more You've got different perspectives, different inputs, different ideas. Then you've got cure to the loneliness. speaker-1: Exactly. And now we've got people talking. How did we come about that, Nathan? Taking ten steps up. It is taking the ten steps up, right? How did we arrive to the because I've this is how I've been trained to sign to think, right? And so it comes naturally to me. but this is what we're trying to teach people, that there's a framework to it. if you listen to about five minutes back, it is about, hey, what's my purpose? What's my my my my purpose and my impact? if you put that then into the equation, I'm not just because business schools teach you where to source, how to create the product. Again, Nathan, I'm not these are very, very important questions. You need to build a business to create that that impact still. Very important. Concepts, but we're talking about innovation philosophies in here. And so, Nathan, if we have what even just one hundred founders thinking like this, one hundred founders thinking how to use public spaces, pitching to mayors of every city on the planet just for those four table, anyone can steal this because this is for impact. That four table that four that one table idea, four chairs. Let's talk. How powerful, Nathan, is that movement? speaker-0: Yeah, very powerful. speaker-1: That alone. That alone. And so however you want to monetize that, for sure, monetize that. You can get partners, you can get brand values aligned brands, then you can build a business about around it. Yes, for sure. But just understanding the concept of how innovation happens, how it should happen, and what you should think about as a founder, those are the most critical things that we need to put. in foundational conversations right now. Otherwise, we're wasting another year, Nathan, and AI is innovating way too fast for innovators to be trained up and to come about. speaker-0: So why then bringing it back to the sameless trap, why are leaders, founders, why are they driven into the trap? Is it just risk aversion or is it just like the standardization of best practices? What's actually causing it? speaker-1: That is a good question. It was triggered by Facebook, really. If you take a look at that, Facebook, Google, and Microsoft. These are the three, three. I mean, Elon Musk is now up, up, up, up, up in there. But this movement was triggered by those three. Big names, Microsoft, MetaNow, Facebook. When entrepreneurs started seeing unicorns. As the only pathway to success. Everyone else then started to see that as the only framework, Nathan, as the only framework that go to Silicon Valley. Because we've got autobiographies of Steve Jobs and everyone else on that deck. Everyone. But I do love Naval Ravikant's perspective always, which is going back to the process of thinking. Hmm. It but it was. Madly triggered by the Silicon Valley movement. However, we have to understand that innovation is not central to where Silicon Valley is. Innovation needs to happen across the world. Multiple different entrepreneurs need to solve multiple different problems from their own set of life experiences. However, Nathan, if we're saying you're you're in the United Kingdom, If we say that the way, the way, the only way of how you do business is the way that it's been done in Japan, which is an entirely different culture. Entirely different culture. And I bring that back in there, right? I think for sure, for sure. These are amazing, amazing, you know how How much Japan is as a self-sustaining country. They're so powerful, they are almost, almost there when it comes to being a self-sustaining country, that I don't need trades stuff. Yes, yes, they're so powerful. There's so much to learn from them. However, if I put that in and force the UK and say, This is the only way, Nathan. The only way, the only way that you're gonna be successful, you're gonna have so much failure versus, okay, we've got all of these like bright little things and seeds right now in the United Kingdom. How do we nurture that in? The problem, though, and the reason why this sameness trap has come about is because of that movement. That now we need D VCs, now we need investors, now we need we need them still. There is a whole ecosystem that is working right now. But it's almost the same as like the simplicity of like male and we're not talking just genders, talking about kind of like energies around it, right? Masculine and feminine energies. Yeah? If you force a feminine energy to solve a problem from this perspective, okay? Feminines, they do have like different phases in one month. It is just biology, right? But if you force them to perform the same way men do, which have a daily cycle, women have monthly cycles, right? Then there's it's not even it's apples and oranges. And so for the past how many years? 15, 20 years since this amazing, amazing thing happened. Everyone then is now trying to define that as the blue the only that's the thing. It is a blueprint, it is a blueprint for someone, but it's not the only thing, Nathan. It is not the only blueprint, and that is why we have innovation philosophy, because you have to learn how to think first. If you know how to think, then you can solve the problem and make your own fucking blueprint. speaker-0: So you're suggesting just completely do away with sort of industry standards when you're speaker-1: Mm. speaker-0: coming up with your own your own product. So d are there are there any at what point does adopting an industry standard cross the line into losing your competitive advantage then? Because you've got like there are going to be There are gonna be certain things that you have to have. from a from an acting perspective, you've got to have headshots. You've got to have a showreel. You you cannot be you could be the best actor ever, but you can't be discovered if no one can find you. So, you know, I imagine it's very similar in the business world, you've got to have some way to be found. That would be an industry standard. So at what point is there like a right, yes, we must you must have these things, but after this point, now you're just copying what other people are doing. And how how how can you know that? speaker-1: Your keyword there is critical. Industry standard. Industry standard. Did you know that there is something called ISO? ISO is basically the gold standard of all standards because they industrialize the process of standardizing stuff. That's how standardized ISO is on the standardization level of it, right? There is, there's this is an art and a science. There's a full on science. It's a standardization, Nathan. Could you imagine, right? ISO, it is a global standard. If you could believe it, there's a global standard that's holding all the standards up to standard, Nathan. That's how insane standardization is. That's why it's hard to innovate. Because if you're already standardized, that's the point, Nathan, of ISO. If you're already stand it's really good to have ISO because that kind of like it's a badge of honor that you know your shit from A to Z. That's gonna be done, especially for enterprises, large enterprises, that whatever it is, whoever is doing the thing, there's a standard way of doing this, and so quality doesn't, you know, diminish. You want that. You want that. You don't want your iPhone, Azen, to be different to my iPhone. You want that standardized for every single user. There's a point for standardization. Yeah? But that again, that is not the point of this podcast. nor this entire conversation. And so when we are going back to the concept of standardization around innovation, Nathan, you have to understand that be that before anything is standardized, that idea of innovation has to happen first. Innovation has to happen first. Everything else follows. You have to follow all of these marketing best practices. And I always say this with Innovation and f even philosophy. The the w philosophy's way of thinking. Philosophy is a way of thinking, multiple ways of thinking, and asking ourselves internally, why am I thinking like this? So for the concept of our podcast, really, how how is innovation being thought about by founders nowadays? Right? And so when we talk about standardization, it only happens after the concept of innovation happens. And innovation only happens when you have an understanding of what happened in history before. So it's not you're not coming in and saying, like, I just want to change the light industry, yes, for sure. But if you haven't looked at how fire began, there's no concept around friction. If you hadn't looked at the Time where when the sun rises and when it sets down, you wouldn't know what the function is for. So there is, you have to understand what has existed in that industry, in that market first. So let's talk about acting. So if the standard way of being booked, in shows and TVs, Nathan. And being a Hollywood actor, right, is a bulletproof blueprint. And just I have to go to Juilliard and I have to do all of these like acting classes. And that's it. I'm gonna be successful. Now I've got like three TV shows and I've got multiple offers from people. If there is a cut, there is a way the industry works. Go to the edition, go to the thing. There is a way. We're not reinventing the entire wheel. We're innovating. Does that we catch that? We're not reinventing entire prophecies and standardization of some of these things. But innovation happens. When an actress like Jennifer Lawrence comes into the industry and says, This is my body, I'm not changing the fuck. That was the time when everyone needs to be a size zero. And she was like, No, no, no, no. I need all the fats. This is my body. I'm not gonna filter myself in. Because before, before she entered the room, everyone was curated. Everyone was Will Smith. You have to be a superstar. You have to be an Enigma. You cannot be a normal person. We didn't have reels, Nathan, at the time when she came through. We didn't have reels. She was, she was the live reel. She was it. And she said, I'm gonna act because I can embody a character in and out, the best way this character needs to be represented. And you're gonna listen to me because I'm the one who's gonna do that. And she did. And she did. if she had followed the standardized way, go to editions wait five more years when you have all the right networks and connections and do like fifty five commercials. 'Cause you have the body, you have the face, you have to do you have to do all these things and you have to do a photo shoot like this. If she had followed that, Nathan, there's no Jennifer Lawrence that would have existed in our time. So this, this, this is applicable not only in business, but in over in life. If you're just thinking one dimensional about the things that you feel you want to pursue, and you're copying everyone, then you're gonna be in everyone else's boat where everyone's waiting for addition passes, everyone's doing the thing. What is the thing that you there's this thing too, Nathan, about identity? Right? If we take a look at now let's talk a little bit about acting because you're an actor. If we take a look at Jessica Chastain and you apply Jennifer Lawrence's blueprint, her blueprint, to Jessica Chastain, it's not gonna work. Why? It's identity. speaker-0: And it won't be as genuine and people will be able to sense that speaker-1: That's not her. speaker-0: fake and phony about it. speaker-1: Exactly. And so this is true for founders as well. You cannot be Elon Musking yourself if that is not your DNA. That is why I teach vision mentorship. Nathan, I don't teach MBA stuff. I teach vision mentorship because for you to arrive to what is your God given vision, because if your life experiences, Nathan, it's so unique to you. It is so unique to you, no one else can copy this. It's a vision made from when you were a child. You've seen something no one else can see. You were given then a gift. It's like a whole formula in. You've seen something, you've experienced something. No one else ever had. Yeah? And you're given a few different pieces and ingredients of gifts. that only you have. Only you have, but that that that concoction, right? Of set of gifts that then you need to nurture because it's like this is where a lot of anxiety and depression comes in, Nathan. Because a lot of talented people know they are talented. But since I already know that, I don't want to have to do the work to cultivate this talent and to put it out there. I'm already talented in it. Like, what the fuck? No. I'm already the thing. This is why. This is why. This is why a lot of people experience that downtrend. Because you know there's already something inside of you, but you're not doing anything about it. speaker-0: So looking at that individuality speaker-1: Hmm. speaker-0: sort of helping you stand out. How if you've if you've got a product and there are four other four other founders that may they've made virtually similar products how is a customer supposed to looking at it from the customer's perspective now how do a customer choose when presented with the five Basically identical products. speaker-1: I love that question, Nathan. I love that question. Hmm. It is the same as the Jessica Chastain, Jennifer Lawrence kind of thing. It is the same when I say vision mentorship. Everyone, the same script, right? Superhero woman. Superhero woman. Probably mom. I don't know. let's make a script on the go, right? trying to be the best runner in the world. Both the same thing. Jennifer Lawrence, Jessica Chester, right? But the people the same story, the same exact movie. Same exact movie. But, but, Nathan, eight billion people in the world. Eight billion. Eight billion people in the world. Same script, I tell you, same script. But the acting would be different, right? The acting, the delivery, the the the the the costumes would be different, the cinematography would be different because these are two different actors. Literally, Nathan. Even even if I put the same title on that movie, there would be people who would go to Jessica. There would be people who would go to Jennifer Lawrence. Simply because simply because of who they are. It's not about the features and the functionality. It is about the vision of that founder. We have so many electric cars right now. Why are people now we now electric cars have been introduced to the market. But why are people now diving into Chinese dominated manufacturers? Why? If it's just the features and functionality, the pricing of it, those are those are things. But human beings, we make decisions based on emotions, really. We can logic the way we can logic our way through the pricing. the features, da da da. It doesn't matter. At the end of the day, you're gonna make a decision based on what resonates most for you. And if our founders don't have vision locked in, you're not vision locked in, mission locked in, you don't know what you're standing for, you do not know why you're doing this, you do not know why you're sacrificing your sleep, your years for something for for something that you're building. This is not about money. The most successful entrepreneurs, Nathan, this is not about money. There's something that needs to be built out from them that they need to make out of nothing. speaker-0: So you're saying there's like there's going to be an emotional connection that is going to make your product stand out from the from the others that are just there's that get not a get rich quick scheme, but it's like a I can flip this and I'll make a quick buck. But if there's if there's you know obviously people are gonna buy that, but For longevity and creating a connection with the customer that will in the end win out. speaker-1: And if you take a look at the most successful longevity brands, Nike, Apple, right? I say these brands, you know them. I say these brands and you know them. I have read Dog Shoe and the autobiography for Steve Jobs, you would then understand that the reason why the brands have achieved longevity. Is it is because founders did not compromise on their vision and the mission. So, for example, for an IKE, it is about making the best shoe possible in the way that it's needed to be done. In the essence of Apple, it is truly, truly about simplicity in innovation. Just do it for Nike, right? Just just do it. And when the concept is so simple, Nathan, the concept had arrived because of those move 10 levels up. The concept had arrived, that simplicity of a concept. So as an innovator, what you want is the simplicity of it all at the top. Everything else follows. If you hire more executives in your team in the future, right? The only reason they would be hired and get on your team is because the mission and the concept and the identity of the company is so strong. That gets followed through everywhere, everywhere else. Design, production, marketing, right? Have you ever seen Apple do something that is, you know, I mean, the there's a lot of conventional ideas now over the past few years when it comes to their designs, but No one really has come quite close yet to how they innovated the concept of technologies, hardware and software being in one design. So when engineers and software engineers at Apple are given a task to innovate this, right? And they do this every year. They they have like a really, really high bar. Because they have to innovate, Nathan, every that was asked innovate every year in the biggest, most successful enterprise, one of the most successful enterprises in the planet. So innovate every year. That was asked for every single engineer. And Steve Jobs was so strict. He would fire people on the spot if your idea is safe. If your idea is safe, that is not an Apple methodology, he would say. That is not our identity. Think outside the box. speaker-0: But I I would say speaker-1: Mm-hmm. speaker-0: as a founder that works for Apple when you have got massive teams, but not just massive teams, you've got massive of people who are who will bend over backwards to work at Apple. If you're speaker-1: Hmm. Hmm. speaker-0: what what does that look like when you do something when you've got a smaller team of ten people and you're saying Innovate, innovate, innovate and then someone comes up with something safe. how does that translate to a smaller scale? Because you can't just then fire ten percent of your staff. speaker-1: That is a tactical human capital structure question, Nathan, that we go over episode three. So that's a good skip of the question. because it's all about human agility. Yes, stay tuned. but that is a really good question. I would also say when it comes to a smaller team, that is way more critical then. As a founder, you have to 'Cause if it is an even smaller team. That is way more critical than having like 100 employees because one person you're entrusting for this whole function, customer support, and is not aligned with how you want your brand to be represented, mission, vision, not aligned. You this person is representing your entire brand then. Then therefore, there is a much stricter honesty. It's much stricter. when it's a small team to say, I'm sorry, this is not working out. You might be a very, very talented person, but in this startup, as a startup, we're trying to do something. And we cannot have this team not aligned. Because in startups, Nathan, every single day counts. One week, that's why there's a big distinction. When you use the word startup and when you use the word mid small to medium enterprise company. Do you know why? Small to medium enterprise companies follow a structured business blueprint, standardized, optimize the cost of stuff, make sure that the production like Again, very, very important questions, right? Very important questions. But they're not on that problem solving space. Yeah. Startups, their momentum moves quite different. Every single day is trying to Problem solve twenty different steps ahead and simplify the problem and the solution in one single day. Whilst whilst doing everything humanly possible in twenty-four hours in twenty-four hours, Nathan, that's why startups are different. In twenty-four hours, what should what should technically take three months to solve? speaker-0: So I guess taking it back to the lesson speaker-1: Hmm. speaker-0: of between Apple and being able to just remove someone easily and then speaker-1: Mm-hmm. speaker-0: team of ten, speaker-1: Mm. speaker-0: you can't actually take the risk of keeping the person on the team because that is a much bigger speaker-1: That's bigger risk. speaker-0: of the company pulling in the same direction as everyone else. So you've got speaker-1: That is a much bigger risk. speaker-0: But then it's ten percent of the team isn't pulling in the right direction at the startup. speaker-1: That is that is an even bigger risk for start of founders. That is an even bigger risk. And so if you want something that is redefining in terms of the sameness trap, Nathan, you can't in terms of the sameness trap, founders then are required. This is the opposite end of that sameness trap. For you to build something, you have to build this with a team. You really need people aligned with you to build something. And so founders are required to have a really, really strong set of communication skills. Because if they can't communicate the vision, what no one is there with them. No one is gonna believe them in the thing that they're trying to build. You can't communicate it. And so you can't. So what what am I looking at here, Pat? What am I what are you trying to do? Right? And so however. The sameness has to be internally locked in. It's not a trap. That sameness of ideas, of values, of tenacity, of belief system that has to be internally locked in. It's not about the external thing. What are my com fuck the competitors, Nathan? They're doing their own thing. Do you have time? Do you have time as a founder? I just explained how 24 hours is so critical for startups. No, no, no, no, no. Let them do their own thing. Do your thing, but make sure that that thing inside is internally locked in. That is when you want the sameness. Every single day, Nathan. Every s even for our team, every single day it has to be out, Nathan. Like, are we communicating to our founders? Nathan. Are we what is the best way to talk about this and to put that message out? Because I have to remind you, as complex as the macroeconomic stuff is happening, at the end of the day, it is about teaching people and giving them the framework that if you just think differently. Then there's a way out of this. speaker-0: So what what does that actually look like then within a team? Like how can a team or founder tell if they've fallen into the sameness trap before someone externally points it out like their customers, for example? speaker-1: that's a good ooh, these are really good questions. I love them. No, these are really good questions. Yes, yes. I love that. I love that. I haven't thought about that, but I do have the answer. You would know that you have fallen into the sameness trap when you are in two quarters at most. Let's go a little bit tactical, Nathan. If you're coming into a pivot, you're trying things out and you're two quarters in and it's not changing. You're following someone else's blueprint. And you're not you're not thinking again 10 levels up. You're not thinking again 10 levels up. And that is why this is a scientific experiment. Innovation is a scientific experiment. And you if you don't, that is why it's a longevity game for founders. The most successful startups that you see right now, BRICS, for example, is an eight-year, 12 years in the making. There's so many startups out there that look like really, really fancy on paper, but they started like for example, as a construction AI startup before they innovated into this finance thing. speaker-0: Right. speaker-1: How massive is the gap? Because they needed to pivot. Yeah, like let's see, let's use a very popular example. Netflix. Before there was you know, DVDs and the renting of the stuff. Before they were really they had to take 10 steps up, Nathan, and say, this is not working. People are losing the DVDs, we're spending the thing, I have to buy the DVDs again. Let's we have to think about this. We have to think about this. We have to really, really think about this and then pivot from there. But if you're a founder, especially at the beginning stages, right? Or whether you are in the middle, if in two quarters, that's six months, nays in, that's massive. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: It's like it's like startups have dog years. Sight startups have dog years. a traditional company has the capital and the spend to stay in just Float in one problem and think about it in forty five different meetings before something gets changed. They have the capacity to do that and this problem gets solved in four and a half years before something changes. And then someone else had come through and had broken that market again. There's such there's such a luxury and laid-backness in structures for enterprises. Just because they can. This is coming in, this is doing this, we do a tweak in terms of the marketing, we optimize the sourcing. That's why plastics have become massive in our lifetime. This is just optimization on how to reduce the costs in, right? Then another thing comes in, another problem solving comes in. And then now I can I I had the capacity in the time frame, four years. Someone had six months to just fix this one thing and they did it. And so for founders, you would know when you need to pivot, I think even three months, three months, you have to stay with that idea still. Three months you have to be patient enough with the builds. Six months you have to be patient with optimization. What am I doing that is not working? And then optimize from there. Six months, you know you need to know how to change from there, or you have to make drastic decisions on what needs to be changed. But from a tactical perspective, that's a really good question. Six months, you know. Six months, you know, when you need to change things. speaker-0: And then how can a founder know or tell the difference then between solving a genuine market problem and just giving into FOMO of everyone else is doing this? It looks like it could be for legitimate reasons do they try and do it themselves or do they go or they take a step back and go, actually there's a different problem that I could solve. speaker-1: It goes back to identity, Nathan. It goes back to identity. If you know what your core skill sets are, you will never, never be afraid, never be afraid of a competitor. Because you have the life experiences, you have a different set of perspectives, and then you have a different set of skill sets that would make you stand out. But you have to be really, really strong in that. if you don't have that core identity, what then's gonna happen is whenever you're failing in your build, the build phase of the startup, the build phase is the phase when you're not hitting three times yet, Nathan, of your capital spent versus the profit. If you're not there yet, you're still building. If you're not there yet, you're still building. If you're not there yet, you're still building. But if in the middle of it you just looked at your neighbor and said, Look at their fancy car, I might want that fancy car. That's not the car for you, Nathan. That's not the a full-on electric thing with just a low end with top out. That's probably not the car for you, Nathan. You probably need something that is more, you know, seven seater, a little bit elevated, seven inches, twelve inches height. Because you're gonna be a family man. A different thing. But you just looked at your neighbor like, look at this fancy guy's car. Let them be. You know, that is how you know if you're copying thing, you you you have to go back to wait a minute, what is my vision in here? What is the mission in here? Because I'm building a family. The future kids won't fit in this like it's so tiny, Nathan. Before they even go down to the thing. The elevation of that freaking sports car is just like I don't know, like two, three inches in before you're even like sitting down in the thing. So that is how I would simplify that concept in. speaker-0: So it's pretty much just about having the the courage and the strength to just to move forward, not worry about what everyone else is doing and have having your plan and sticking to it. But yeah also being malleable enough to have that vision of ten ten steps up and the influence from other people. So you've got your core vision. Yes. You know what you're doing. You will also listen to other people. speaker-1: Listen to listening is so important, I have to say. You have your vision, yes for sure. But if you have a team, you then have to trust them with why you hired them in the first place. And so having team, mentors, mentors are so critical. That's why I have a mentorship program. Mentors are very important. Again, no great person has not had one mentor in their life. No one great, no one great. Athletes, every single one has had a mentor. And so if you feel like, I'm doing great, I'm doing great, and you feel like you don't need a mentor, that's probably when you need one. Because mentors, what they do is not necessarily be better at you in everything that you do, but it's providing that additional perspective that you're not seeing because you're so much in the trenches of it. So listening is important because if you are truly an innovator, your concept should not be closed off. It's not necessarily like I don't believe in my mission. Mission and vision has to be immovable, Nathan. But you have to be open and humble enough to say, I have so much yet to learn. I have so much yet to earn, and I have so much yet to. Discover about this world of electricity that I didn't know about before. speaker-0: So just having that hunger and desire to always learn. So what then does 'cause it can be quite risky sticking sticking to your guns. what does a healthy risk taking culture look like when you are trying to do something radically different and you're trying to break away from industry norms. speaker-1: We have to still that question down because that is such a wide concept and we could go ten ways about it. But if I'm just looking at it from a problem solving perspective as an innovator. The risk has to be there. The risk. The risk has to be there. You also need to know that there is a possibility of failure, but you're not adhering to that beef. Does that make sense? This could fail for sure. For sure. Disney, Disney, the story of Disney. That's not gonna work. That's a that's a mouse. That's a drawing of a mouse. But Disney, Walt Disney, had a much bigger vision. He had much, he risked his entire life nashing. So when we talk about risks around innovation, around something so radical, it changes cultures and it changes perspectives. It it has impact. Oof. You risk everything. You risk everything. There's no, there's no let me risk ninety-two percent of it. No. 'Cause there's someone, Nathan. Someone, you're 92%, you're already going at it, you're already pulling 92%. You are already pulling 92%. Someone younger, much more tenacious, much more willing, much more of this, much more of this is risking 1000% over your 92%, and you expect to be the one breaking the barriers. No. Right? speaker-0: Yeah. How in that case? speaker-1: Mm. speaker-0: If we if we take it a bit bit further away from risk then and risk taking. speaker-1: Mm, mm, mm-hmm. speaker-0: How do you balance being radically different? speaker-1: Need. speaker-0: still meeting sort of basic customer expectations. So for example, you're trying to make a phone and you want to do something completely different, but ninety-nine percent of people are still going to expect this phone to be able to make phone calls, send texts. speaker-1: Mm. speaker-0: Obviously there is there is the phone that's the what is it Yeah. It just does speaker-1: Yeah, lightphone, yeah. I love that, yes. speaker-0: phone and text. speaker-1: That is a good example. That is a really good example. for the dump phones and light phone, we can cite them up in here for lightphone. They started with just the idea of texting and going back to basics. And just if you need sound, upload your MP3 in here. alarm, text, and just be with the phone and just say texting and calling, like the people that you know, like 25 contacts in. You don't need a hundred. You don't need a hundred, right? So use this phone. But Lightphone also innovat Lightphone version one to Lightphone two now, which now has GPS, which now has integration, which now has Spotify. It is becoming a phone, but still integral to what they had built. No interfaces, no whatsoever, just five clicking things. It's there, right? It is still functional. It is still coming into what the users want, Nathan. But the integrity of the brand is like we're not gonna make it so pretty that it's gonna distract you. We're gonna put the GPS in because we know that that's important for so people you can find places and people can find you. You need music that's you're already paying for. You need the internet. We're gonna put internet in here, but it's not gonna function as something that would distract you from your humanity, which is the core purpose of why we made this happen. So that was a really, really good example. So there are ways to go about to. creating something that users want and need, but never diverging to the purpose of why you started that thing in the first place. speaker-0: So yeah, so still upgrading, improving what you're you're doing, improving your offering to people and I guess making it a bit more palatable to a wider range of people. Because speaker-1: If that is your goal. speaker-0: I you know, if a phone if that's your goal. 'cause yeah, I wouldn't vote for a phone that just did texting and phone calls. But if yeah, texting phone calls, map and Spotify, that's Yeah. Immediately ninety percent of what I'm to use my phone. speaker-1: That now makes it that's what I want exactly. Exactly. speaker-0: Eighty nine percent might be doom scrolling in you know speaker-1: Yes. That is why that is why we they did that, right. Exactly. Mm-hmm. There we go. Is exactly that. speaker-0: They're once of the speaker-1: It's exactly that. Now you're gonna be on the wait list for Lightphone. They did not sponsor this, unfortunately. So Lightphone on the next episode of Innovation Philosophy. We're just I mean, we're here. speaker-0: Send me. speaker-1: Lightphone. Exactly. And do a demo. Lightphone three. We're ready, Lightbone. We gotta tag them here, Nathan. We gotta tag them on the we're ready for your innovation. And that's where we're basically, that's why we're we mentioned you in episode one. I'm just saying this could be a thing. But yeah, Nathan, I think that's it. I mean, for the sameness trap, you know, we talked about whore c whole whole concepts in terms of in a what innovation is to begin with. I think we have to start we have to start there. sameness. Standardization, all of these things had a starting friction trigger point before we had known them as the norm. Before we speaker-0: Yes. speaker-1: had known them as the norm. Yeah. speaker-0: I've got one last question to ask you and I I Okay Pat before we started recording that I had a bit of a curve for for her. I think everyone can agree. speaker-1: I'm getting nervous. speaker-0: So put you on the spot or provide a live example to our listener, what should we be doing as a podcast to stand out and not fall into the sameness trap of every other podcast out there? speaker-1: Damn, That was a really hard question. And that actually that's really good because people then can see the application of this, right? we're gonna talk Nathan. And for those who are listening to episode one of Innovation Philosophy, we are going to talk about things in business because this is an entrepreneurship podcast like HR, AI agents. We're gonna talk about all of those things, yeah. This is still business entrepreneurship. However, the one thing that we would never ever stray away from, Nathan, is the concept that if we are problem solving AA agents for the future, if we are problem solving hiring and you know, human capital, right? It still will be focused on the lens around those two things, innovation and the philosophy, which is the framework of thinking around these things. So it's it is going back to basics. Having in our foundations right, not moving in to to be if you find inspiration in what we're saying or what we're talking about in here, amazing. Thank you that you had found insight and to get inspired by our conversation. That's amazing. But really what we want to teach is how to think. That will never change. So that's how we're gonna make this an innovation of itself. speaker-0: Perfect. Love it. that wraps up today's episode of Innovation Philosophy. I think if there's one takeaway for me, it will just be about having the the bravery and the the strength to go for the idea and not worry what other people are producing, how they're altering what they're doing and just I've got my vision. This is what I'm doing. Thank you for listening. Please check us out on Instagram. leave a comment if you have any questions about anything we've covered today, and we will try and answer the questions next time. And we will be back with the next episode where we will be talking about the economics of originality. And we're gonna be asking if markets can systematically underfund genuinely new ideas. See you then, Impact Maker.