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ITSA meetings to showcase transportation innovation in Detroit · Talking Michigan Transportation

• 0:07
  Jeff Cranson: Hello, welcome to the Talking Michigan Transportation Podcast.
• 0:11
  Jeff Cranson: I'm Jeff Cranson.
• 0:12
  Jeff Cranson: I spoke today with John Peracchio, who is a member of the State Transportation Commission here in Michigan, has been a frequent guest on the podcast, and I especially wanted to talk to him this week because of his years-long involvement in intelligent transportation systems and specifically the Intelligent Transportation Society of America, known as ITSA, which is convening its annual conference in Detroit next week.
• 0:44
  Jeff Cranson: John has a lot of insight gathered because of a lot of curiosity and all things that involve transportation, but he's especially been plugged into what ITS does in terms of technology and innovation and everything to make it safer.
• 1:00
  Jeff Cranson: The whole idea is that by getting people together from regional equipment manufacturers, the auto industry in general, researchers, academia, and certainly government agencies, that people can find out what's working and that can lead to better technologies and better outcomes.
• 1:19
  Jeff Cranson: So John had a lot to say about all those things, where we're at with the development and deployment of connected and automated vehicles, and some examples of things that are working in terms of technology and that kind of communication and collaboration.
• 1:35
  Jeff Cranson: So I hope you enjoy the conversation.
• 1:37
  Jeff Cranson: John Peracchio, welcome back to the podcast.
• 1:40
  Jeff Cranson: I always appreciate your insights.
• 1:43
  Jeff Cranson: Um you're a frequent guest, but that's because you're into so many things.
• 1:48
  John Peracchio: Um I appreciate that, Jeff.
• 1:50
  John Peracchio: If we keep this up, I'm gonna get myself an agent.
• 1:55
  Jeff Cranson: And uh maybe you'll get into the Five Timers Club because I think you've reached that milestone.
• 2:00
  John Peracchio: So wow, wow.
• 2:01
  John Peracchio: Is that like uh, you know, if you're a frequent host on Saturday Night Live, they do a special on you.
• 2:08
  Jeff Cranson: I'm still working on a design for the robe.
• 2:10
  Jeff Cranson: So look forward to that.
• 2:12
  Jeff Cranson: Great.
• 2:13
  Jeff Cranson: So I wanted to talk to you today because um your immense background and just curiosity about everything related to intelligent transportation systems and the fact that the Intelligent Transportation Society of America is convening their annual conference in the motor city next week.
• 2:32
  Jeff Cranson: And um I wanted first just to get the mission out there and then have you talk about that.
• 2:38
  Jeff Cranson: And that's what they say is for 35 years, the Intelligent Transportation Society of America has been a leading nonprofit uniting government, industry, and academia to champion policies and investments that make our transportation system safer, more innovative, and more efficient.
• 2:54
  Jeff Cranson: I think we can all get on board with that mission.
• 2:56
  Jeff Cranson: Um how would you say uh I guess I tell me without critiquing it, um, how are we doing, not just ITSA, but all of us toward that goal?
• 3:09
  John Peracchio: Uh so I I think we've made significant progress.
• 3:12
  John Peracchio: Um we've had some major hiccups, for example, uh with dedicated short-range communications uh using the 5.9 gigahertz spectrum, where the uh Federal Communications Commission basically pulled a rug out from under us.
• 3:27
  John Peracchio: Um and so we had to pivot uh into other ways to enhance vehicle connectivity.
• 3:33
  John Peracchio: Uh so it's it's all about uh vehicles and and infrastructure communicating to uh enhance uh safety and to do what the ITS America mission uh really states, uh make our transportation system safer.
• 3:49
  Jeff Cranson: We talked about that a lot at the time.
• 3:51
  Jeff Cranson: In fact, I remember um having people on from the University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute to talk about the 5.9 gigahertz issue.
• 3:59
  Jeff Cranson: Could you uh, you know, kind of briefly explain the fight there?
• 4:03
  John Peracchio: Well, it was a fight.
• 4:06
  John Peracchio: We were trying to maintain the use of that spectrum for traffic safety, uh, in short.
• 4:14
  John Peracchio: And um the pressure, though, uh from the telecom industry to grab more and more spectrum because of the data needs that they have collided, uh, you know, no pun intended, with the traffic safety uh opportunity.
• 4:33
  John Peracchio: And so, you know, the dollars were on the side of the telecoms, not on the side of traffic safety.
• 4:40
  John Peracchio: Uh, hence the FCC took the position that um, you know, we should we should open that spectrum up to other uses.
• 4:48
  John Peracchio: And to be fair to the telecoms, you know, we've had access to that 5.9 gigahertz spectrum for more than a decade.
• 4:57
  John Peracchio: And really, except for General Motors and Cadillac, there was no broad deployment of dedicated short-range communications on the vehicle side.
• 5:09
  John Peracchio: And we did have uh some deployment on the infrastructure side.
• 5:14
  John Peracchio: Indeed, Michigan was a leading adopter of uh dedicated short-range communication roadside units, which were critical to having this all work.
• 5:24
  John Peracchio: Uh, but you know, beyond that, uh it just kind of stagnated.
• 5:28
  John Peracchio: And so, at that point, the FCC kind of threw up its hands and said, okay, telecoms, you can you can have uh really most of the spectrum.
• 5:37
  Jeff Cranson: I don't think you'll ever lose a drinking game that involves uh every time someone says to be fair to the telecom industry.
• 5:46
  John Peracchio: Well, okay.
• 5:46
  John Peracchio: I mean, we we need them and uh you know they uh they know where we are at all times.
• 5:53
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah.
• 5:53
  Jeff Cranson: So talk about uh I want to get into how this relates to connected and automated vehicles and how um that's become some of the focus in recent years, but that's not all of what ITS does.
• 6:05
  Jeff Cranson: But first, just talk about your personal involvement and what's provoked your interest and curiosity in all of this.
• 6:11
  John Peracchio: So um I worked for a uh major tier one automotive supplier uh for 10 years, um, uh Harman International Industries.
• 6:21
  John Peracchio: And at the time we were just beginning to develop and deploy uh navigation systems using uh highly uh defined map data.
• 6:33
  John Peracchio: And uh when I was at the uh at Harman, I I thought about this uh deeply.
• 6:39
  John Peracchio: I thought, man, this is a huge opportunity to go beyond just navigation systems, but to also uh talk about other kinds of uh information that can flow between a vehicle and infrastructure.
• 6:54
  John Peracchio: And ITS America attracted me.
• 6:57
  John Peracchio: Indeed, I had Harman join ITS America at the time because it was the only organization that bridged that public-private um uh gap, if you will, in terms of uh promoting research, development, and most importantly, deployment of um uh technologies that could make the roadways safer and more efficient.
• 7:21
  John Peracchio: Uh and then uh I started to think about other modes of travel, which you know became uh you know something of a um obsession for me to probe into things like maritime and uh and aerospace, because of course we're in a 3D world.
• 7:38
  John Peracchio: And so transportation transcends all of those uh spectrums.
• 7:45
  Jeff Cranson: So really it's just about everything that moves.
• 7:47
  Jeff Cranson: It pretty much interests you.
• 7:49
  John Peracchio: Indeed.
• 7:50
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah.
• 7:50
  Jeff Cranson: So I when I came to the department in the uh early 2010s, um, this was uh a nascent thing, the connected and automated vehicles thing.
• 8:01
  Jeff Cranson: Um Michigan uh was sort of in a in a lead in terms of looking into it, in part because uh major university um had a center that was looking at it, and because the MDOT director at the time, Kirk Steidel, had a particular interest in it and was a speaker every year at the Center for Automotive Research Management Briefing Systems uh meetings in Traverse City.
• 8:23
  Jeff Cranson: And I remember him joking at the time that when that session started, it was basically a phone booth, and over the years it grew into uh a big room.
• 8:32
  Jeff Cranson: So I came to believe that that's what brought me to ITS.
• 8:37
  Jeff Cranson: And while that's really important and there's a lot we can talk about there, you made the point to me that that's that that shouldn't at all define everything ITS does.
• 8:47
  John Peracchio: Well, but Michigan, I you know, uh to be fair to um uh Kirk Stoydle, uh, who along with um our legislature and governor at the time, Rick Snyder, uh created M City, which is what you're referring to at the University of Michigan, which was absolutely the leading edge of research and development on connected and automated vehicles.
• 9:11
  John Peracchio: And um, and perhaps we'll get into this a little bit later, but I just want to point out, you know, Public Act 332 of 2016 created the uh old Council on Future Mobility here in Michigan, but more importantly, it created a framework for testing uh connected and highly automated vehicles on public roadways actually operating well correct and in it with very little restriction.
• 9:37
  John Peracchio: Okay.
• 9:38
  John Peracchio: Uh and and I thought, you know, at the time this was groundbreaking in terms of um what a state could do to promote the these technologies.
• 9:49
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, I remember having to correct uh many people, lawmakers and and media uh outlets at the time, because Matt Smith, who then headed up ITS within MDOT, was adamant that what made this groundbreaking legislation was actual operations.
• 10:05
  John Peracchio: So well, and also with you know, back to the my point about very little restriction.
• 10:11
  John Peracchio: I mean, you know, comparisons are odious, but if you look at how California handled this, you know, they, you know, for example, uh the historically the California DMV has required disengagement data from operators of highly automated vehicles on their roadways in in California.
• 10:31
  John Peracchio: And frankly, it's like giving a gold watch to a monkey because they don't have the ability to analyze that data.
• 10:37
  John Peracchio: All right, they just compile it, um, and it's actually not even uh publicly available because of non-disclosure agreements.
• 10:46
  John Peracchio: And so that type of it to be honest, I think useless requirements uh we don't have here in Michigan.
• 10:54
  Jeff Cranson: Thinking about that that pioneering legislation and everything that's gone on, and I use CAVs as an acronym for connected and automated vehicles, emphasis on automated, not autonomous.
• 11:04
  Jeff Cranson: And I just like you, I bristle when people say autonomous, because that's very misleading for what we're talking about.
• 11:11
  Jeff Cranson: Um but so all kinds of conferences, OEMs, academia, others, uh increased research into this.
• 11:20
  Jeff Cranson: So, where do you think we stand?
• 11:22
  Jeff Cranson: And and what are the many reasons we're not all driving highly automated vehicles?
• 11:26
  Jeff Cranson: Is some thought we might be 15 years ago.
• 11:28
  John Peracchio: You know, bluntly, the technology is not mature enough.
• 11:33
  John Peracchio: Um, you know, there's promise there, uh, but it's on on both sides of the equation.
• 11:39
  John Peracchio: On the vehicle side and the infrastructure side, we need to do a lot more to ensure safe operation of highly automated vehicles.
• 11:48
  John Peracchio: And I think that's why you really don't see car companies uh heavily focused on uh SAE level three automation, where um, okay, the vehicle in some places can kind of drive itself, steer itself, uh, but at any moment you're going to need to take over.
• 12:10
  John Peracchio: The system will tell you, oh, you need driver to human driver to take over.
• 12:16
  John Peracchio: And um, and that's problematic because um, you know, people it takes uh people's uh time to adjust cognitively to the need to start driving when they were maybe reading a book.
• 12:30
  John Peracchio: Okay.
• 12:31
  John Peracchio: And so level three is very scary, and I'm not even gonna touch the potential product liability aspect of this, or if there's a traffic violation when in level three, is it the system, the vehicle itself, that's responsible, or is it the human driver?
• 12:52
  John Peracchio: Those are issues that still need to be uh worked out before we're going to have uh deployment uh of highly automated at the higher SAE levels of automation at scale.
• 13:05
  Jeff Cranson: I understand the marketing and branding decision, but I've always questioned whether it was really smart of Tesla to use the term autopilot right out of the gate.
• 13:14
  Jeff Cranson: Or or full self-driving.
• 13:16
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, yeah.
• 13:16
  Jeff Cranson: Because that applies, like you said, that you can read a book or take a nap, right?
• 13:21
  John Peracchio: Right.
• 13:21
  John Peracchio: And you could wind up in a ditch or wrapped around a telephone pole.
• 13:25
  John Peracchio: So, I mean it's really that I think is uh highly prop problematic, uh, that type of marketing.
• 13:33
  Jeff Cranson: That sparks a thought that uh is off of my show map, but because you and I have discussed this before and I think you and I love these philosophical dilemmas.
• 13:42
  Jeff Cranson: Um talk about the trolley car uh dilemma and how that relates to trying to train machines to drive force.
• 13:51
  John Peracchio: Right, right.
• 13:52
  John Peracchio: I love the trolley um uh car example because you know, are you gonna and I'll you know change it a little bit.
• 14:00
  John Peracchio: Are you going to uh you know hit a school bus full of children or your grandmother?
• 14:06
  John Peracchio: Uh that's your choice.
• 14:07
  John Peracchio: Uh and or someone else dear to you.
• 14:12
  John Peracchio: And the system uh can only uh permit one course of action.
• 14:18
  John Peracchio: And that's that is the the real dilemma here.
• 14:21
  John Peracchio: Is it are humans uh good drivers?
• 14:24
  John Peracchio: Well, the data doesn't seem to support that uh assertion much.
• 14:28
  John Peracchio: Uh but are we ready to be able to do that?
• 14:30
  John Peracchio: Exactly.
• 14:33
  John Peracchio: But are we ready as a society to say, okay, um robot vehicles are are truly going to be safer?
• 14:41
  John Peracchio: Um and you know, I follow people like um Professor Emeritus uh Koopman of Carnegie Mellon University, uh, who is very pragmatic, I think, in pointing out the deficiencies of highly automated vehicle operations.
• 14:59
  John Peracchio: And then if you if you um uh listen to or read uh what uh has been published by Missy Cummings at George Mason University, she's very far uh into the criticism of car companies who are deploying even level two plus systems today without sufficient um uh research and development and testing.
• 15:26
  Jeff Cranson: When when this concept first emerged, it was uh, you know, in in the olden days of trolley, and the idea was that an operator would have to make that decision between uh a crash that kills or injures many versus uh maybe just one.
• 15:40
  Jeff Cranson: Um they weren't really contemplating AI then.
• 15:44
  Jeff Cranson: So um in an AI world, you know, is there a way?
• 15:48
  Jeff Cranson: How does somebody train a computer to make that kind of decision?
• 15:54
  John Peracchio: Well, the the the challenge is what uh what the experts, and I'm certainly no expert, uh, call edge cases, right?
• 16:00
  John Peracchio: It's those edge cases that you very difficult to program a system to handle.
• 16:07
  John Peracchio: Um and uh you know AI has has its own challenges, indeed, demons, I think, where you know, um sometimes when when the AI system can't give you an answer that's grounded in fact and reality, it makes something up, so-called hallucinations.
• 16:27
  John Peracchio: Now, do you want hallucinations driving your automated vehicle?
• 16:31
  John Peracchio: I don't think so.
• 16:32
  John Peracchio: So we have to we have to really take a step back and say AI can offer a lot of benefits, but it also requires uh monitoring and uh careful assessment before we deploy it at scale.
• 16:47
  John Peracchio: We will continue the conversation right after a quick break.
• 16:50
  MDOT Message: In Michigan, safety comes first on the roads.
• 16:53
  MDOT Message: To combat distracted driving, Michigan passed the hands-free law.
• 16:57
  MDOT Message: The law makes holding or manually using a cell phone or other mobile electronic device while operating a vehicle a primary offense.
• 17:05
  MDOT Message: This means an officer can stop and ticket you for violating the law.
• 17:09
  MDOT Message: This can include, but not limited to, sending or receiving a call, sending, receiving, or reading a text or email, accessing, reading, or posting to social media sites, or entering locations into the phone GPS.
• 17:23
  MDOT Message: With this law in place, drivers are encouraged to stay focused, keeping their hands on the wheel and their attention on the road.
• 17:30
  MDOT Message: Drive smart, drive safe, drive hands-free.
• 17:33
  MDOT Message: Michigan's hands-free law, making the road safer for everyone.
• 17:41
  Jeff Cranson: Sounds like the whole idea of ITSA was so that everybody wasn't operating in a silo, that you've got um private industry and government and academia, um, sharing information, sharing, you know, I mean, I mean, obviously, with all the cautions about what's proprietary, but at least speaking the same language, you know, finding out.
• 18:02
  Jeff Cranson: I I'm a big believer in borrowing from others that everything is derivative.
• 18:07
  Jeff Cranson: And uh the first question anybody at MDOT will ask when something comes up is well, what are the what are the states doing?
• 18:13
  Jeff Cranson: That's what I always want to know.
• 18:14
  Jeff Cranson: Like we might not have to, you know, reinvent anything here.
• 18:17
  Jeff Cranson: So that is probably the best of ITSA.
• 18:21
  Jeff Cranson: Is that fair to say?
• 18:23
  John Peracchio: It's a it's a completely accurate um uh summation.
• 18:28
  John Peracchio: Uh, I mean, collaboration among private sector folks and public agencies uh is really what drives ITS America to um back to its mission, back to achieving the objectives that the organization has set out for itself.
• 18:44
  Jeff Cranson: So talk about uh some examples.
• 18:46
  Jeff Cranson: You mentioned something to me that uh the Ohio DOT is doing with Honda, which has a major presence in Ohio, obviously.
• 18:53
  Jeff Cranson: Um talk about that and some others.
• 18:56
  John Peracchio: Right.
• 18:56
  John Peracchio: So the really fascinating collaboration between uh Ohio Department of Transportation and Honda on using existing vehicle centers to uh um aggregate in real time road data.
• 19:13
  John Peracchio: I mean actual uh information about potholes, about uh crashes, about uh really everything that's happening on the roadways, and uh using a software package to uh manage the flow of data and to aggregate it, uh assemble it in a useful way, and then disseminate it so that uh Ohio DT DOT can take uh action uh sometimes immediately if there's if there's a sufficient um uh emergency situation on a roadway.
• 19:48
  John Peracchio: And I think that's a great example of how the private sector can collaborate with a public agency to enhance uh safety and improve transportation efficiency.
• 20:00
  John Peracchio: Um and other examples are out there where uh state DOTs, tolling agencies, uh collaborate with the private sector uh to do the these the same thing.
• 20:14
  Jeff Cranson: I mean, ultimately that's the goal here, right?
• 20:16
  Jeff Cranson: To reduce crashes.
• 20:17
  Jeff Cranson: So, if you're sharing that information, um I think you talked about even weather-related hazards.
• 20:24
  Jeff Cranson: Um all of that is designed to reduce crashes.
• 20:27
  Jeff Cranson: I always feel like as much as we develop new technology, we develop new ways to distract ourselves and still cause crashes.
• 20:36
  Jeff Cranson: Um, so can we can we uh can we win?
• 20:41
  Jeff Cranson: Can we get on the positive side of that?
• 20:43
  John Peracchio: Well, I think I think for the most part, law is on our side already.
• 20:48
  John Peracchio: So, um most states have um you know distracted driving rules where you're not supposed to be able to, you're not supposed to text while driving enforcement is you know challenging.
• 21:03
  John Peracchio: Uh it's hard to enforce those laws.
• 21:05
  John Peracchio: I think that um uh the vehicles themselves are going to be um designed to detect distracted driving as we move forward.
• 21:16
  John Peracchio: And that will help whether it's haptics or an alarm or something, uh, because we already have crash avoidance technology deployed in vehicles.
• 21:25
  John Peracchio: And so I think that that is a trend we're going to see that that doesn't um necessarily require uh you know uh regulation, although it may come to that, because a lot of states are and the federal government uh right now is considering mandating crash avoidance systems.
• 21:43
  John Peracchio: So um, you know, it could be come like seatbelts.
• 21:47
  Jeff Cranson: I should look this up, but uh maybe you have some sense of this.
• 21:50
  Jeff Cranson: But um I know that when we first started talking about this uh years ago, if I asked for a show of hands in a room about An automated vehicle, people would shake their heads and say, like, no way.
• 22:04
  Jeff Cranson: And I've said, Are you okay with auto braking?
• 22:07
  Jeff Cranson: And they'd say, Yes.
• 22:08
  Jeff Cranson: Are you okay with rear assist?
• 22:09
  Jeff Cranson: Yes.
• 22:09
  Jeff Cranson: Are you okay with lane assist?
• 22:11
  Jeff Cranson: Yes.
• 22:11
  Jeff Cranson: Backing camera.
• 22:12
  Jeff Cranson: Yes.
• 22:13
  Jeff Cranson: So all those components are what ultimately make for an automated vehicle, right?
• 22:19
  John Peracchio: Absolutely.
• 22:20
  John Peracchio: Maybe another one you could mention in the same uh sentence is um location, uh, where you are.
• 22:29
  John Peracchio: Uh and uh so people are very nervous for privacy reasons about uh having a vehicle that they're driving, um, you know, having uh the infrastructure know exactly where you are.
• 22:41
  John Peracchio: But of course, you know, if you own a uh smartphone, uh they always know where you are.
• 22:48
  John Peracchio: And if it's I mean if it's on.
• 22:50
  John Peracchio: So it to me, it it's like uh we again the forest from the trees.
• 22:55
  John Peracchio: To your point, you add all these technologies up, and it's very close to a highly automated vehicle.
• 23:02
  John Peracchio: Uh and you know, we have now level two SAE level two plus.
• 23:07
  John Peracchio: Yeah, explain what that means.
• 23:09
  John Peracchio: So it's it it's basically um uh what's a good example?
• 23:15
  John Peracchio: Maybe the uh GM cruise system, where for certain uh roads that have been um carefully analyzed by the um the system, uh you can take your hands off the wheel, okay?
• 23:30
  John Peracchio: And this can go on for as long as you are those roads that are a part of the system, right?
• 23:38
  John Peracchio: But once you get off those roads, you have to you know uh take over control of the vehicle.
• 23:46
  John Peracchio: Um, but they're mapping more and more roads.
• 23:49
  John Peracchio: And so the plus part is that this is an expanding universe of roadways where you can you know operate your vehicle without having hands on the steering wheel.
• 24:01
  Jeff Cranson: So maybe to uh twist the cliche a little bit because it's been more incremental than we would have hoped 15 or 20 years ago, it's uh a half step forward, a quarter step back.
• 24:13
  Jeff Cranson: I mean, we're making some progress, but then you know, you mentioned the story and I saw it, and I think anybody who's interested in this did of the Waymo's uh encircling a cul-de-sac near Atlanta.
• 24:24
  Jeff Cranson: Um that's gotta be bad for PR.
• 24:28
  John Peracchio: It's terrible.
• 24:29
  John Peracchio: It was in an article in the Wall Street Journal.
• 24:31
  John Peracchio: I mean, but also, you know, when they had a power outage in San Francisco, the vehicles just like stopped, right?
• 24:37
  John Peracchio: You know, and it caused all kinds of uh problems.
• 24:40
  John Peracchio: But the cul-de-sac um example is you know, it thankfully no one was hurt.
• 24:48
  John Peracchio: So I think we could be mildly amused by it, but it really messed up a neighborhood for hours and hours on end.
• 24:55
  John Peracchio: But that's why urban planners would say we shouldn't have cul-de-sacs.
• 24:58
  John Peracchio: Well, there you there you go.
• 25:00
  John Peracchio: That's right.
• 25:01
  John Peracchio: And you know, I just uh conjured up uh roundabouts where the automated vehicles just go in circles forever, and there's no good explanation for that.
• 25:14
  John Peracchio: Uh and um Waymo, uh, you know, to take a take a crack at them, they really have not been transparent about why that happened.
• 25:24
  John Peracchio: And that's the kind of thing that Professor Koopman and Professor Cummings uh really latch on to as a as a failing.
• 25:32
  John Peracchio: You know, we need more transparency about how these things uh function.
• 25:36
  John Peracchio: And when they don't function, okay, please come up with a plausible explanation and don't just run and hide.
• 25:44
  John Peracchio: And at the end of the day, NHTSA and the NTSB, they're going to demand that type of information.
• 25:50
  John Peracchio: Uh, whether it ultimately becomes public, I don't know.
• 25:53
  John Peracchio: But clearly uh they're doing themselves a disservice by not being completely transparent.
• 25:59
  Jeff Cranson: So as you go into this conference and prepare to have conversations with lots of people from, you know, all over the continent, I guess, and beyond.
• 26:09
  Jeff Cranson: Um, how do you feel?
• 26:11
  Jeff Cranson: Do you feel uh cautiously optimistic or bullish?
• 26:14
  Jeff Cranson: Or what's the future of technology and its ability to help reduce crashes, which is the ultimate goal?
• 26:20
  John Peracchio: Yeah, so I am optimistic, and indeed, um uh sort of a precursor to the ITS America event in Detroit um next week was an ITS Canada annual conference and expo in Edmonton a couple of weeks ago.
• 26:35
  John Peracchio: Uh Mishka DOT had a strong presence there.
• 26:39
  John Peracchio: And uh what was fascinating was uh, among other things, is um technologies to keep uh disabled pedestrians safer.
• 26:49
  John Peracchio: A really interesting set of systems uh that help uh folks who are visually and hearing impaired cross uh intersections safely using a range of technologies, indeed, using smartphone applications.
• 27:06
  John Peracchio: Uh, and then there was another display of technology.
• 27:10
  John Peracchio: Actually, our uh Michigan DOT director, Brad Wieferich, tried it out.
• 27:15
  John Peracchio: It was a virtual uh planning tool to allow non-disabled folks to experience what it means to navigate a city street as a disabled person in a wheelchair.
• 27:29
  John Peracchio: And uh it was it was absolutely fascinating.
• 27:33
  John Peracchio: So, Director Wieferich um, you know, was and we could see what he could see, right?
• 27:38
  John Peracchio: And he managed to crash into a couple of walls, he killed a couple of bicyclists while he was in his wheelchair.
• 27:47
  John Peracchio: And I mean, it was humorous, but a huge opportunity in terms of planning what I call the curbscape to take care of um uh our most disadvantaged travelers who are disabled, uh, because if you can take care of them, you can take care of anyone.
• 28:06
  John Peracchio: So it's a long-winded answer to your question about being optimistic.
• 28:10
  John Peracchio: I'm optimistic if we can come up with those types of technologies to take care of um of those types of folks, uh I think we're on the right track.
• 28:20
  Jeff Cranson: Well, that's really well said.
• 28:21
  Jeff Cranson: And I know your friend and mine, David Bukowski, who directs the disability advocates of Kent County.
• 28:27
  Jeff Cranson: Um, I've talked to him often about those kinds of simulations and things that you can do to, if not put us in their shoes, put us in in their wheels and help understand what that's like.
• 28:39
  Jeff Cranson: And hopefully it gives you an appreciation as a driver, um, as an able-bodied driver or pedestrian, um, what hurdles they face.
• 28:48
  Jeff Cranson: So, yeah.
• 28:49
  John Peracchio: Absolutely.
• 28:50
  John Peracchio: I mean, it's interesting.
• 28:51
  John Peracchio: So, for the hearing impaired, I just give you one quick example.
• 28:55
  John Peracchio: Uh hearing impaired people sometimes can hear certain sounds at the lower end of the spectrum.
• 29:03
  John Peracchio: And so one of the technologies actually produces an alert at the lower end of the spectrum so that so that the uh the um uh hearing impaired person can actually hear something and know it's not safe to cross the street versus okay, it's fine now.
• 29:22
  Jeff Cranson: That's really interesting.
• 29:23
  Jeff Cranson: Well, John, thank you as always.
• 29:25
  Jeff Cranson: Um looking forward to uh seeing you in Detroit next week.
• 29:29
  Jeff Cranson: Should be really interesting and uh be interested to hear your thoughts afterwards.
• 29:33
  Jeff Cranson: Thank you very much for having me.
• 29:35
  Jeff Cranson: I'd like to thank you once more for tuning in to Talking Michigan Transportation.
• 29:38
  Jeff Cranson: You can find show notes and more on Apple Podcasts or Buzzsprout.
• 29:43
  Jeff Cranson: I also want to acknowledge the talented people who help make this a reality each week, starting with Randy Debler, who skillfully edits the audio, Jesse Ball, who proofs the content, and Jacke Salinas, who posts the podcast to various platforms, and transcribes the audio to make it accessible to all the time.