Latest / Curiously Guided Podcast / Ep.18 | Healing Website Wounds: How to Move Forward After a Bad Website Experience

Transcript

Ep.18 | Healing Website Wounds: How to Move Forward After a Bad Website Experience · Curiously Guided Podcast

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to the Curiously Guided Podcast.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: We're your hosts, Mariah and Shay, two intuitive business strategists exploring the intersection of entrepreneurship, spirituality, and the subconscious mind.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: If you're interested in exploring and learning how to integrate strategy with energetics to help you grow a more profitable business in a way that actually feels good, then you're in the right place.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: In today's episode, Mariah and I are chatting all things website wounds, which may sound kind of like a crazy title.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: But one thing that we've noticed in the reason that we're talking about this on the podcast is a consistent theme we've seen among people we coach and entrepreneur friends and peers.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then in my work, I'm selling creative work all day.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm on sales calls all day long.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: And one thing I hear consistently is a lot of people have a lot of shit around their website.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's really important in business that we really are clear on where our energy is going and where our energy is being spent.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: And we kind of patch up the areas of our business that feel like energetic leaks.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: And one thing that I have noticed consistently is that a website brings up a lot of energetic weirdness among everybody.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so to give you an example of this, you know, just yesterday I was in a group coaching call and I heard a girl say the coach was bringing up her website.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: And the girl said, Oh, please don't look at my website.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: It makes me cringe.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: And how many people, I mean, I have felt that way and currently do feel that way.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like I feel like our websites are very important tools in our business.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: And if you want to hear us talk more about that, you should check out episode nine where we really dove into like, what role does a website even play in your business?
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: But websites are really, really important.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think they're almost like an extension of us that is really alive around the world 24-7, telling our story.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it can either be doing a really great thing for us, making great first impressions, you know, like doing the marketing, doing the sales, streamlining, streamlining client onboarding, all that wonderful stuff that a really positive, good website can do.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: But for most people, it's been a source of a lot of stress, pain, and anxiety.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: And whether that's you've tried to DIY it and you just like the idea of giving people a business card and having them look at your website makes you queasy because you feel like, ooh, I just that's not how I want to be represented.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's not telling my story.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Or what I see a lot of is people who have um gone through the more what I would call like a traditional website process and they've worked with a developer um more in an old style.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: It honestly, this industry is just the wild, wild west.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: So unfortunately, there's just a ton of people out there that have been burned in the past.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like they didn't feel like they themselves understood how to build a website.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: So they hired a developer or a designer, and then the experience was very rocky.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: They didn't feel heard, they ended up with something they didn't like or know how to use.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times they ended up in relationships where they have to keep paying that original agency just to keep the site up that they don't like, don't know how to use, and doesn't really serve them.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: So um I think that I I've noticed that a lot of my sales calls recently have just been kind of coaching people through.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: I I will I want to be respectful of the word trauma.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I know a lot of us have, you know, there could be capital T trauma and lowercase T trauma, and we're gonna have a trauma specialist on in season two of the podcast to dive more deeply into it.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: But what I have noticed in my work is that a lot of us have a lot of story and negative spirals and all the bad uh negative kind of feelings that can really suck us down, all wrapped up in the website.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: So today we kind of wanted to dive into um reframing some of that, untangling some of that, giving y'all some tips about what to look out for.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this thing can be really powerful and there's a way to do it well.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's also a way to stay in really weird, negative, downward energy about it.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of what we're hoping to accomplish with today's conversation.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think honestly, like when I really sit in the the past experiences and conversations that I've had with past clients, from my experience, I think that there are people that have website trauma.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like I do think that trauma is a fair word to use here because people have had really awful experiences.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: They feel betrayed, abandoned, like all of these really intense feelings.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: And even though, like a website on a logical level, it's kind of like, oh, it technically is a neutral thing.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's something that's on the web.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's not good nor bad.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: It just is a thing that talks about our business.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: But it's the experiences and the people that kind of bring, well, can bring some like negative context to it.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm glad that we're having this conversation because I feel like it's layered, I feel like it's complex.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think that there's a blanket statement of like what's causing this because I think that there's I think that there's a a a few things at play here.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: Number one, the online business world is the wild, wild west.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: There are so many different options for websites.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: There is not really a certification process, there's a lot of creativity, which is great.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: There's also tech.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: Tech can get extremely outdated very quickly.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: So somebody that created a website for you two years ago, it could already be outdated.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's also like a lack of boundaries when it comes on both sides, on the client side and the web designer or developer perspective.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: They're because like websites are the wild, wild west.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: And like some clients, when they when they go into a situation, they have this idea in their mind, but it's like if you don't understand websites and tech, or you're not really in that field, it might be hard to explain what you want in a way that like communicates your vision.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: Or it's like we assume because we're not on the back end, we assume that it's easy.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: We assume that maybe there's only one way to do things, but like from a web designer and developer perspective, there's so there's so many solutions to literally one problem that we can create a solution at all different levels in all different ways.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that there's just like so much that goes into it that for website designers and developers, sometimes it's hard to scope website projects.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's hard to have clear kind client expectations and boundaries.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then to be completely frank, some of it is a lack of integrity or willingness to support people moving forward.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, like this is very complex, and there really is like no right way to go about it.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's kind of why we wanted to dive into it and kind of just explain maybe like the whys and the thought process behind things and give you guys the tools to be able to go into a website process feeling empowered and maybe offer some perspective shifts.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, I love that.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: So let's start with the beginning.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, first take note how as we've been talking about websites.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: If you have a website, how do you feel and talk about your website?
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: Are you excited to send people there?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what have your past experiences been like?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: Mariah's exactly right.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I know firsthand companies and businesses that have lost tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dollars because they made a bad choice in a web developer and they paid them uh thousands of dollars every month for months on end and then walked away with nothing because they didn't really do their due diligence.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the let's start with like examine what your story is around websites and kind of trace that back, figure out where it all came from.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm hoping that at the very minimum, know that you are not alone.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: If you have had a weird experience where you lost money or had a really weird interaction with a developer or designer, or are struggling to get updates made on your website and it's a constant source of stress, like know that unfortunately that's kind of the norm in this industry.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I think for me and for a lot of people, I'm kind of walking through this with um it's like just knowing that it's not just you and it's not anything you did wrong, and it is actually a very common thing that happens, kind of takes the some of the shame, I think, out of it.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's less don't don't take it personally.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like know that there's but there it's common, but it doesn't have to be that way at the same time.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: So there is also hope.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to paint like a bleak picture.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think that just know you're not alone, know that this happens a lot in the industry and give yourself a little bit of forgiveness and grace, right?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like space, just kind of like get clear about what's here, what's popping up.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then that'll help us, I think, get some data points about how it could go a little more smoothly for you in the future.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: Who would have thought that we suggest journaling or like reflection, reflection or like reflecting about your website?
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I've never heard that of advice before, but like just like everything, in order to figure out where to go, we have to figure out where we are right now.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: And a way to do that is to give yourself space to reflect.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is there a situation that happened around a website that you loved?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: What did you like about that?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: What did you like about the person that was supporting you?
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: What did you like about the end design?
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like there are some people where they're just like, okay, I like my website now, but it's like I've grown so much that I just need a different edition of it.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: And if that's the case, same thing.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: Get really clear about what you liked or what you didn't like about the past experiences.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how is the communication?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: And especially communication around technology.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Did you feel like that person was able to explain and communicate things with you?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Or did you feel like you were kind of left with more questions?
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then taking radical responsibility for how you showed up in that scenario.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: Did you ask the questions that you needed to ask?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Did you speak up and tell them, like, hey, I'm really confused about this?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: Can you actually go a little bit deeper?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: Can you explain it in a different way?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have an example?
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think that switching the perspective from like, I don't want to be a pain in the butt client, or like, I don't want to ask too many questions, I don't know anything about this, instead of coming at it from that perspective, instead be like, no, like this is this is another arm of my business.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I would like to be curious about it.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: I would like to have some foundational education around this.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: And even if it's not your thing, you can still show up in an empowered way so that you can make an educated decision.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: But before we do that, you really have to like reflect and maybe journal about past experiences or past stories that you've heard from other people's experiences.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think that that's important.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: There's so much stories.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone constantly, oh, my buddy told me this or my friend did that.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I think getting clear about, you know, what are the lessons learned?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: What do you what have you learned so far about how you like to do it, how it's gone well, how it hasn't gone well.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then what Mariah is pointing to is absolutely true.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, where have you given your power away in the past?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think a big mistake I see a lot of people making at all levels is they've told themselves, I'm not a tech person, or I can't, I'm not a creative, or I can't understand this.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's all this advice about, you know, be in CEO mindset and delegate and hire out.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that's all true.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's certainly powerful.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: But I think, um, especially with websites, there's a lot of value in taking the time to be involved, do your due diligence, you know, learn a little bit about what platform you're going to get on and why.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: And what how maintenance, how do you want to maintain your website?
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want to rely on an agency or do you want to keep it in-house?
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what what are your expectations there?
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: And and like Mariah said, websites can get a little weird because they're bridging the creative world with the tech world, which is often, and then in the business world is getting brought in.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like three people speaking three different languages.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I think that um it there's even though there is something to hiring an expert, I want you to at least learn the lingo and the vocab, get clear on the basics, and you can grill people in sales calls, like ask friends for referrals, like really ask web designers for examples of past work and references and follow up on those references.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: You wouldn't believe how many people out there are calling themselves a web designer and they've actually just stolen portfolio photos from somebody else and they've never worked with people before.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: So it there is um there's a lot to say about grabbing your power back.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: And at least I like to encourage never say I'm bad at tech.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you've ever said, I don't understand technology, I'm bad at it, like just don't say that.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: That is a limiting belief.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody can get better at tech.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: None of us were born understanding how computers work.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's totally a learnable skill that you can get better at.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, in the era we're living in, building a website has never been more easy, and maintaining it has never been more intuitive and user-friendly.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: So you can learn tech.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: I always tell my clients like, instead of saying I'm not good at it, say I'm getting better and better at technology every day, right?
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: Switch that to like I'm growing, I'm learning, I may not be where I want now, but I am building that muscle and spend time when you're hiring a web person.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: Get really clear on what you want, like we said, and then get out and do your market research, you know, do um however you like to hire, you know, asking for referrals, getting on the big platforms and databases and searching.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we talked a little bit about your options in that last podcast episode we shot, but get involved and ask a bunch of questions and be super curious.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like Mariah said, don't try to just be like easy and creatives are really good.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of times and tech people are kind of like wooing you with like the smoke and mirrors of how complicated it could all be.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: But like, don't buy that.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: Get in there, ask a ton of questions, don't be afraid to ask them questions and like really do your research and follow up because, like Mariah said, there's no regulation, and you can really be anyone asking you for anything.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then if they take money and run, there's not a lot you can do, right?
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of responsibility here.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: You said radical honesty earlier.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll say, like, take radical responsibility for your website as well.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think that because we're bridging so many worlds here, I like that that you gave that reframe.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: This is a collaborative process that requires communication.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: We cannot expect a web designer, whether good, bad, neutral, like whatever, we cannot expect a web designer to come in and to create the perfect website like for you without communication.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: It just will not happen.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: That is part of the creative process, is collaboration.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's why the hiring process, if we switch perspectives, I think that using this as the foundation of like, huh, how is this web designer or developer communicating with me?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: How are they handling my questions?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: Are they giving really good examples?
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: Are they answering things?
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: That could be a really great insight to like how they work.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Ask them about their collaborative process.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do you handle revisions?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: How do you, you know, how what is the best way for me to provide feedback?
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I like what you said, like ask for references.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: And try not, I know, I know that like in the online business world, it can feel weird to do that, to like ask for references, but just know that it's normal.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I have been on the other side, like I have been a past client, and I've had somebody that I worked with in this instance, it was email marketing.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: She helped me create like this amazing funnel.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: And she had a client that was asking for references.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so I ended up sending voice notes back and forth on Instagram answering this girl's question about the process that I went through with this other person with the email marketing.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's normal.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it should become even more normal.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: I really do.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think that like, because even when you're hiring somebody in the corporate world, you're asking for references.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: You don't know this person.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think just different ways of getting curious about the collaborative and the communication process, I feel like that would be a really good place to start and coming at it from a curiosity thing.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: And like I've kind of learned this as the business owner myself.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like I tell my clients on sales calls with SEO, but I also did with website design.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, listen, this is a collaborative and communicative process.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: You understand your business better than anybody else.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm here to bridge that gap, but I need your feedback on for SEO, what you want to show up for.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: Does this resonate?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Does this work with your goals?
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the biggest things for me has always been educating my clients so that they don't need me forever.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: That has always been a really big thing for me.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I reach out to people and like want to hire them for projects, it's kind of like, how deep are we going to get in this process?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then when we wrap up, where am I going to be?
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: Am I going to be, am I going to have the tools that I need in order to move forward?
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: Or is this a thing that I have to keep paying for?
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then getting really honest with myself of like what kind of support I actually want.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you bring up a huge thing.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think um there's a lot we could go into here, but a lot of the focus in the design world and even the developer, there's two roles that go into building a website.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to clarify really quickly.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: We have the web designer who like outlines how it looks, and then the developer who actually does the tech and builds it, right?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so you have those two worlds, and they're, I would say a lot of designers are very motivated by having the portfolio piece.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: So there's so much focus that goes into how can we launch the most beautiful website that I then can, you know, like add to my portfolio.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: But then that's where the thinking stops.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: And this sounds so obvious, but you would not believe I would say a majority of the people I talked to, there was never a conversation about what happens once that beautiful website is live.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: And how does it age?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: And how do we make updates and changes to it?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that, you know, is more important than how it looks on day one, because really it doesn't really matter how beautiful it is if it gets dated immediately, or if you change your business model and your website isn't flexible enough to grow with you, you know, you can lose a lot of money in that way as well.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that's another way that people get burned, is just like, I spent all this money in this beautiful, you know, state-of-the-art website, but actually it wasn't aligned with my goals in the first place and it got dated immediately, or I needed a team to help me maintain it and my developer ghosted me, right?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that on, you know, there's two questions here that I think are vital when you're interviewing salespeople or um web design agencies.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: One is how is this website actually going to support me towards my goals?
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, really be clear.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not looking for something that's beautiful.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm looking for something that's beautiful to the right people, tells those people the right story that ends in them either usually buying or joining the audience, right?
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, really getting um, I think creative people and tech people, they can be really focused on their zone of genius.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it's easy for them to not ask you about your goals and what your business needs and focus more on like the portfolio piece.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm looking for people that are invested in my growth as a business.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: I want this to be a high ROI investment.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I want them to.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Be able to explain to me why they make the decisions that they do.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to know that it's in my best interest, if that makes sense.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then the other piece is maintenance.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: Who is going to be keeping the site up?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's a lot of people out there like Mariah and I, where we'll create you a system that's super easy to maintain, and then we'll train you on it.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then our goal is that you feel really great about doing the maintenance and like the day-to-day stuff.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but the the traditional model is you would pay an agency, um, and then you once the website was launched, you would continue to pay them a pretty hefty monthly fee for infinity for them to maintain your site.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that sounds okay if you need a lot of maintenance help, but a lot of times you get in those relationships and you'll send in a request for a change, even something simple like changing text or changing a photo, and then you have to wait four weeks because you're not a high priority for the agency anymore.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: So you kind of go into like back burner status.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so I run into a lot of people that are very frustrated because they have a website that they can't maintain and they're paying a lot of money for it.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I would I would be really clear out the gate with who you're talking to of how does this actually equal high ROI for me?
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then how will you support me in this like ongoing piece of it?
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because that is really where it matters, and most people don't think about those things.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that I just want to backtrack just a little bit.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you mentioned the difference between a designer and a developer, and the designer is more front-end creative, how it looks.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: Developer is like building code, that type of thing.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: I do want people to know that there are people that are both.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like if you're listening to this and we're saying designer slash developer, sometimes they're two different people, sometimes they're one person.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: So if you meet somebody that says, like, I'm a designer and the developer, that's not like a red flag or anything like that.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, like that's exactly what I was.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I I kind of move forward with like a developer first perspective because like my whole thing was strategy and function and like how it worked.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then the design fell in after that, where it's like, okay, we want this to look good, but like the main priority is how the fuck does this work?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: And like, is this going to work long term?
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I kind of just wanted to put the spotlight on that really quick.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have anything that you want to add to that?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sorry.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure I'm sure you can tell me, like nodding furiously.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's such a cool differentiation because I've I've been in a lot of agencies and you can make the decision for yourself.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want an agency that's more design forward or an agency that's more developer forward?
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: And there are fortunately in this world, you plethora of options.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if you're kind of like a high fashion, really premium brand, a lot of times going with like a design forward team that um, yes, they have development support they can build, but their main emphasis and power is in the design, that may make more sense for you.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: But if you have like kind of a complicated business, like um, say you need some kind of unique web functionalities, like you have a subscription box or like something that's a little bit more advanced, but the actual aesthetics aren't necessarily as important.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I would go with the development first.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like you, I would make sure that that team was really stacked development-wise.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's kind of like a nuance that I've honestly never even like said in words before, but that exists.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say every agency or even person that does both falls into like one camp or the other.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so it could be powerful for you to be aware of that and know what you would prefer.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then across the board, we want to do clear over clever always.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: But just like Shay said, when you're in the creative field, if you're either a high fashion or even an artist of some sort or something, when you're highly creative on the front end of what you do, you can get away with a little bit more cleverness because people expect that.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: For service providers, for coaches, clear over clever, always I'm sorry, we ain't getting super funky chicken with like all of the beautiful things on your website.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: We want people to be able to really sit with the content, the user journey, all of the fun stuff that actually goes into the website.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: But I kind of wanted to dive into you mentioned the old agency website model.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that just outlining this a little bit might fill in some gaps for people of like, where the fuck did this even come from?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: How did we get started with this stuff?
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so how did we get here?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's a really good question.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: So basically, the old agency website model, you know, back in like, I don't know, the 2000s or the night, late 1990s, whatever.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it started with HTML websites.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: So like website code, where literally if you deleted one thing, meaning like one bracket, one quotation mark, if you deleted one of those while updating text on your website, the entire website would break.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: So like the fear that developers have with like clients going in later and updating content, like that fear comes from somewhere because that's how the web used to work.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: It used to be table layouts, which like for the normal human, that doesn't mean shit, but it's basically yeah, it's HTML, it's completely coded websites where in order to change text on a website, you would have to go in and physically change the HTML and like not fuck up the brackets.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of where it comes from.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it made sense for agencies to then be like, listen, we don't want you fucking shit up.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: So you're gonna pay us, we're gonna change the text, we can completely do that because we know what we're doing.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: And if we had to train you on this, your brain would ooze out of your ears.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like that does actually come from somewhere.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: It just made sense for your investment.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Now, obviously, depending on the type of website, if your website is super development heavy where like you needed a lot of custom things, you might still need to pay a developer to go in and change things.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: Or if that's the kind of support that you want, totally up to you.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: You can have that support.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: But now, with website platforms, CMS content management systems, we no longer, for the most part, have to rely on HTML-facing websites.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: The content management system like WordPress, ShowIt, Shopify, Squarespace.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: You only really have to code things if you need custom functionality or want to get a little fancy with some stuff.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: But they have been really awesome at taking the code away from the front end so that clients and website owners have more control over the content itself.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's where the name content management system comes from, where it's like the client can actually change the content without fucking up the design of the entire website.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I just wanted to go ahead and kind of explain that of like where we were and how did we get here?
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because I feel like that's that's pretty helpful.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think it's helpful because it influences a lot of the stories, like we talked about at the beginning.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: We a lot of us have all these stories around websites, and I think it comes from dated information, right?
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the idea, um, I still have clients on Squarespace, which is like the most user-friendly platform.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm afraid if I go in, I'm gonna wreck the whole site.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it's fortunate that that's not true, you know.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of like a lot of us have all these stories, but they came from like the way things used to be.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: And now it's really if you have a Squarespace site, it would be very difficult to go in there and like wreck the whole thing.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even know that it's possible.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um the whole thing, yes.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: But I have, I love my past clients, but I have seen when they go ahead and they try to update some text, and then I look at the page and I'm like, what?
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: What happened in there?
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: What happened in there?
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like if you do feel uncomfortable, just make sure that you have a developer or designer that is good with communication.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: And has like if you want, yeah, if you want that type of support, it's available to you.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something I don't want to devalue the industry um because I do think a big problem comes like we have all this messaging.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of mixed messaging.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, like we have all maybe these like dated stories come from this old agency model, but then also we're seeing like Squarespace commercials, which are telling you, hey, building a website is easy.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: You can do it in five minutes.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, that's really oversimplifying.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I run into a lot of people that are very surprised when I ask for like a five-figure website because they really assume that it's just so easy.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: And really, this is a profession.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this is something that people you can learn it too, but do you want to dedicate the time?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, do you want to become a web developer?
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's something I ask a lot of people on sales calls.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the there is something to understanding how a person uses a website, how our minds um kind of go through information and sort things and remember things.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: And there's all kinds of just nuances that, like, if you have the know-how, you can really design something that's very effective to actually get people to take whatever action you want them to take.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: And only a pro can, yes, you can get on Squarespace and throw up a website in 15 minutes, but is that website gonna make you money?
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, right?
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's where you bring in a pro.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: And there is 100% value in doing that.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so it kind of just gets back to what kind of support do you want?
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I do like to encourage people, like, yes, learn, but also if you want to delegate, that's fine.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: Just do your due diligence and make sure that you're talking with that person and you guys are clear six months from now, and I have a question, what happens?
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so it's fortunately and unfortunately in this world, there's like always 10 ways to skin the cat in literally every way.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so it really gets down to finding a person that you really feel aligned with and you can build some trust with.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think finding trust is kind of hard in this world.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so if you are finding someone that communication is easy, um, their expectations are matching your expectations.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: I really like to encourage people to try to scope as much as possible on the front end.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: And what I mean by that, Mariah kind of alluded to this earlier, know that it's hard for web developers and um designers to price these projects because a lot of times you get into it, and when the client learns about all the possibilities, oh, I want to add this and I want to do that, and oh, I didn't tell you about this, but I wanted to bring in a wholesale division.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's very difficult to price and scope out website projects.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: And where a lot of um projects go awry is honestly the web designer doesn't charge enough because they don't know how to set those boundaries and scope at the beginning.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: They don't have the in the weeds conversation up front, then they don't charge enough, then they get into a project that will not end and goes on for months and months and months because they don't have good boundaried process.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so that designer just gets salty and mad because they feel really taken advantage of.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why they ghost.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like it's definitely a two-way street.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think look for someone that you can communicate with and look for someone I really encourage what I would call like an iterative process, a process where you work in baby steps together, where it's very collaborative, where never the designer's never running off and building a whole site and then asking for your feedback.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: Instead, we're taking one baby step together, checking in, taking the next baby step, checking in.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's to me a sign of a really healthy process that the designer has thought about.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I I just like to encourage people that there's a lot of work that goes into the beginning phase of finding someone, and it can seem tedious, but if you can really dive into the details as much as possible up front, it's going to make the whole project so much smoother.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: I love the way that you laid all of that out.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of like also use your intuition.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: We're all intuitive humans over here.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like if you're on a call with somebody and you're feeling resistance from them, or you're noticing that maybe you're getting triggered, or like you just didn't feel like your vision, your needs, your expectations, you don't feel seen, you don't feel heard, then I don't care what kind of sales tactics they have.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: I don't care what the game plan is, I don't care how good the price is.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: I really don't.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't give a shit.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's like if I don't feel safe and supported and valued in our first conversation, then I know that intuitively this is not going to be a beneficial relationship for either of us moving forward.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because like it's not to say that like they're a bad person.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that at all.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like we're not on the same wavelength here.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: And you bring up price, which I think is a point we haven't touched on exactly yet.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: But I will say it is, in my opinion, always worth it to pay for someone who has more reviews, who has the testimonials and the case studies.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: Their prices are always going to be a little bit higher.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but what most people do is they the website is like the last thing they've done, you know, in the business.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: They've done all the other stuff and you know, sourcing product and finding clients and all the marketing and all the branding, and and they're at the end and they're like, Oh, I need a website and I don't have any money.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: So let me find the cheapest thing possible.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna get on Fiverr.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: If that is your situation, I think if you truly don't have the money, take the time to DIY it.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: You can watch a couple YouTube videos on Squarespace and get yourself something pretty decent and a reasonable amount of time and save your money so that when you are ready, you can actually invest a little bit more in someone with like a proven process.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not saying go spend 50K.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: That could be appropriate for your business, it could not, but I have seen that when you go for the cheapest option in the web design world, it rarely turns out well.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you'll get the up-and-coming designer that maybe didn't quote you as high as they should have, and like lucky you, but that's kind of even a diamond in the rough.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think, in my opinion, it's worth it.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: And if you can't afford it, save up for it.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I think that that's a really good point.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I also want to point out when you are looking for somebody, before you even like reach out to them, take a look at their portfolio.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: And if they have links to the live site, look at those.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: Look at those, please.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: Take a look at the portfolio, see which style you like, see which websites live you like.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: Are they still functionable?
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, keep in mind that a lot of the times after you live launch, sometimes the client goes in there.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: And since a lot of us create on content management platforms, the client can change some stuff.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: So it might not look exactly like the portfolio picture.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think having client portfolio like past things that they've created that are still live, and you being able to check in on those is insanely important.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: And if you do hop on a sales call, ask them questions about it.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, I saw that you created a website for saleswithjay.com and I really like the home page of this.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: I really like that.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: Is this within the scope?
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like, does this align with the package that I'm looking at?
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, was there any custom functionality that I need to be aware of in order to get that?
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like, use their past portfolio examples as pillars for you to get curious about because that also makes it really easy for the designer to be like, oh my God, yeah, I totally understand the style that you're going with.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we can absolutely do this, but just know in that project they did X, Y, and Z.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: It like gives the website designer or developer like something to go off of and to bridge your vision with an actual outcome.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I am really glad you brought up live links in particular, because what you may find a lot of is a lot of like pictures of websites, and then you Google them and they don't exist.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: And um there is something about if you can find a live link where that site actually got launched and that person actually used it, there's a value to that.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's hard for me to like even express it, but know that it's very, very common in this industry to not be able to find concept projects are very popular for designers.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: So they'll they'll maybe even have a client.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they'll mock up a website, but they didn't actually like the relationship fell apart and they weren't actually able to launch it and get it live.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot of, or it was a school project or a for fun project.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's it if you can actually find live links, just know that's very valuable and I would encourage you to look for it.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: And ask the question how much does it cost to add a new page?
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because I have had clients to where it's like we knew that they were eventually going to grow in business because, like, that's the goal, isn't it?
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like we have to also create a website for where you at, where you're at right now.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, let's say you want to maybe add e-commerce down the line.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: That is an important thing for you to bring up to this person, even if it's not in this version of the website, be like, I'm thinking about this.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: Would this platform be a good fit for that?
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: So that's something to think about, but also just on a super simplistic basis.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I see this so often with SEO.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like best practice with SEO is to have a different page for the service that you offer so that we can target those specific keywords around you solving that problem.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: But a lot of website design packages only include, let's say, five or six pages.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: So all of your services are outlined on one page.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not saying that that's wrong.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just saying that best practice for SEO is that all of your services are on a separate page.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a sales page for each service, essentially.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to do that, but whatever.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: So basically, I have had to ask clients, okay, I know that we're about to launch this website.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: Is there any way, since this is your signature offer, is there any way that we can get a new page and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah?
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like they've never asked that question before.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: And they're just like, well, I don't know if we can add another page.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, okay, that is a question that I think we have to ask the website designer is like, hey, if I'm doing SEO moving forward, if I'm doing PR moving forward, if I want to create a sales page for something, what is the cost of that going to be?
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: And know that it's probably going to fluctuate.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's probably going to be like, here's a starting at cost, and here's the whatever, like a range, because it's like pages can be short, they can be long, they can include extra functionality, whatever, which is getting a base price, I think is extremely helpful.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think what you're saying is accepting the fact that business changes and you are going to change, and you need something that can be flexible enough to change with you, and you need a relationship that will allow you to throw up a page here, take something down, test out a new idea.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think that's right on because when you ask the designer that question, you're going to get a sense of how they do that ongoing support that we've talked about over and over again and what that looks like for them, um, which is just so important.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: If we can stress one thing, that's it.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I feel like just getting clear when you're talking to a website designer or developer, like what kind of support do you want after it's wrapped up?
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: And getting some kind of training, whether you want to go in and update the website yourself, regardless if you do, regardless if you don't, getting a training on how to update things is insanely valuable because then even if you don't want to do it, now you have something.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: What is it, an SOP?
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: The word like a process for somebody on your team.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you hire a VA to do this.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, okay, then you just send them that training video.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's such a good point.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I I would ask your designer to include like a library of training.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how does this work?
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because you may not be the one that does it and you want to hand it off to team and having that resource you can go back to and refer to is very useful.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think just yeah.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: So when you're trying to find the right person, I think that the process looks like a sit with any past past stories, past experiences that you've had on previous website projects or past stories, past experiences that you've heard of.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: What are your assumptions walking into this?
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think getting really, really clear on where you're coming from is insanely important in order to move forward and have a good experience because this gets to be fun.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: This is bringing your business into the online space.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: And a website as me and Shay knows insanely powerful.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: And the last thing that we want for you is for your website to become an energy leak.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: Something you make makes you feel like the other side of this is some something this could feel energizing and you could feel excited to send people to your website and you could be getting a ton of leads and like getting your name out there and your sales calls could be getting easier because people are getting all the information they need ahead of time, you know, and and the same with like your pitching and scoping or however you do that like it it it can be very powerful and useful.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: It can if you work with someone like Mariah who's like a visibility person, it can be making you a ton of money.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's just so many wonderful things that it can be doing.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like pretty heartbreaking for me when I see there's just so much trauma and people have lost a lot of money and have had a lot of really hard experiences and business and even shame and all these stories and it's so common.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I think like what I'm my hope to see in the world is that the industry itself can kind of like uh I don't know get to know itself a little bit better, act with a little bit more integrity, you know, a little bit more regulation.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I kind of think that's where we're heading.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: But like Maria said technology the way it changes so often, it's always going to be a little bit I think wild westy.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I think a lot of this comes back to like personal responsibility, getting in your power, like figuring out don't believe that you're not tech and you can't understand.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like get to a point where you can understand and you can feel good and expect that of the people you're working with that they should help you understand.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, don't sit in this kind of like you're the expert guru and I can't understand anything because that dynamic over time just never works.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah yeah I mean I completely agree.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like just stay like every fucking episode on this podcast stay curious.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: Stay curious about it because it's like your website absolutely can work wonders for you.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: And like my website not only shows up on Google and brings me leads but it also allows people to see if we're a good fit just based on the content that I have on my website.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I literally use it when people slide into my DMs.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: I don't type out what what my packages include or what I focus on.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm literally like hey are you looking for this are you looking for this and then I send them pages to my website and then I was then I tell them let me know if you have any more questions we can hop on a sales call if this feels good for you.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like they just it does so much work for you.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_01: So like don't discount a website if you've had a past experience in the past just know that there's a lot of power here and just getting really clear on where you are where you're going and what kind of support you want.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then checking in with your intuition checking in with your gut here.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: How do you feel about this person?
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: Are they communicating?
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_01: Are they collaborating?
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_01: And like just getting really clear about every phase every step basically and yeah look for somebody that does baby steps.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: I like that you said that yeah that's important for me with creative work especially and that's how you keep development the the reason people really get burned price wise is because they go into development without a clear plan.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then the developers can really just like run wild in any direction and that's where things get very very very expensive.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: So like Mariah said if you can go in with a very clear plan of action and work together in baby steps, you prevent the train from ever being able to run off the rails in that way.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then the other side of this is Ryan I the other day said your website should be up on the wall in that like employee of the month frame.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it could be the most valuable player you have on your team it's such an asset.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm just hoping that you know more and more people can like find the power in it and and think about them in it.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm hoping that we're kind of telling a story of like think about this in a new way like maybe trust yourself trust the feelings you're having as you're going through this process maybe push yourself a little bit um get out of your comfort zone you know kind of take a bit more of a curious and intuitive approach to an industry that I don't think has had much intuition involved up until this point.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where I think you'll have a lot of luck and success.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah absolutely and I just want to do a little plug here me and Shay have been talking about the possibility of hosting a workshop about websites and creating ones that like make you money but feel good and like are strategized in a way that isn't so techie and agency and blah blah blah.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's like wealthy websites for the normal person.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean we're not sure about the name or anything like that quite just yet but if all if you're really resonating with like our perspective on this I would like to invite you to sign up for the workshop wait list.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: The link to that is going to be in the show notes or you can hop over to the website curiouslyguided.com slash workshop dash waitlist I think that that's it.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_01: Make sure that you're on there because this is definitely a website or it's definitely a workshop that we feel really strong about and we're just we we keep noticing this gap in the industry.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: So if you want to start making more money from your website definitely sign up to that wait list.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: But I think we're going to close this down Shay do you have any last thoughts you want to get out here no I love that yeah um keep an eye out for basically Ray and I culminating as you guys can tell we're super nerds.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: So we're we're putting together like literally everything we know about like what actually makes a website profitable.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: There's all kinds of little tweaks and simple things you can do that make massive impact.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: So the whole concept of our workshop is like maybe you need the 50k website but before you do that let's take a look at what you got and see if we can optimize and find ways to make money kind of in place, right?
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: Before you make the big investment, let's optimize what you have.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: So we are really excited to put it together.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: We have a it's it's been a joy so far.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it's going to be really fun if you're interested in getting our eyeballs on your website and um it's definitely going to be high ROI.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: So keep an eye out for it.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh sign up for the workshop wait list.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: We're also just going to have a lot of fun workshops coming up in the future.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're curious at all, get on that wait list.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: And with that, I think we're going to close this episode down.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_00: If you enjoyed this episode feel free to share it with someone you think would love it or tag us on social media.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: We really are so grateful for you sharing this podcast with your friends.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_00: I I've built my whole business on referrals and I think word of mouth is really powerful.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: So if you know someone who is speaking our language, Mariah and I are on a mission to kind of build community around being more intuitive in business, being more curious in business.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: So please we are just so grateful if you could share this with anyone you think that it would resonate with also DM us if you have episode ideas or if you have questions.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_00: We also would appreciate a five star review if you have the time to go leave us one that helps the podcast rank a little better on Apple and the other podcast platforms.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: And until next time remember that you have the power to create whatever the fuck you want.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: Follow the nudge ask questions and let curiosity guide the way we'll see you in the next episode