Latest / PCMA Convene Podcast / Talk: The Anti‑Anti Sustainability Movement: Why Climate Action in Events Is Quietly Accelerating
Transcript
- Convene Talk, ep. 96/May 15, 2026 *Note: the transcript is AI generated, excuse typos and inaccuracies Magdalina Atanassova: This is the Convene Podcast. Welcome to another Convene Talk! Today’s conversation sits at a really interesting — and honestly, complicated — moment for sustainability. On one hand, we’re seeing increasing urgency around climate action. On the other, there’s a very visible pushback — politically, culturally, even within industries — against sustainability efforts themselves. Some are questioning the science, others the cost, and many the pace of change. But what’s equally interesting — and maybe less talked about — is what happens next. Because alongside that resistance, we’re also seeing a quieter, more determined response: organizations, communities, and individuals who are staying the course. Not louder, not necessarily more visible — but more intentional. So today, I want us to explore that tension — what Tanya Popeau, PCMA's head of sustainability, describes as the “anti–anti” movement — and what it means for how we design, plan, and show up in events right now. I'm excited that Tanya has agreed to join us today. So welcome back, Tanya. Tanya Popeau: Thank you very much. Great to be here. Magdalina Atanassova: So we had a brief conversation where you mentioned this idea of an anti anti sustainability movement. So can you unpack that for us? And what are you seeing right now? Tanya Popeau: Yeah, so firstly, let me take you back just because sustainability has always been underground. So if I think about myself as a United nations advisor, often I'd meet people, you know, in the hallway and I'd say, what do you do? What do you work on there? But like sustainability, no one's listening. So no one has been listening for quite some time. And then 2020 arrived and we all know what happened, the marches. And then it became top of the agenda. Fast forward to now, 2025, and it slipped back and we've seen a very anti sustainability movement, as you say. But those people who have been quietly pushing forward, focusing on sustainability for years are still there and they're still emboldened by the movement that has taken place over the last few years. They're a little bit aghast at what's happened maybe over the last 18 months, but they're still there and they are still CEOs of corporate companies, they are still leaders, they are still, most importantly, parents and grandparents of the next generation. And they are at the absolutely holding firm. I can see them on my LinkedIn. I meet with them in person and dare I say, they feel that they have a moral obligation to design a future that works for everyone. And that's what I hear consistently. Magdalina Atanassova: I love it. And I'm curious, does that resonate with what the rest of you are seeing or are you experiencing something different? Barbara Palmer: Maybe I see that too. I see that the conversation, the cultural Conversation is happening on one level and then on the ground level, people are still doing the things that they were doing. And I live in the Bay Area in California. I went to an event a couple of weeks ago, it was on Earth Day and it was 200 people from the events industry in the Bay Area. It was sold out. I barely squeaked in. Came together to hear a panel of women talking about sustainable events. And the meal was entirely plant based. To me it just illustrated that it can be embedded in cultures. And when people are doing sustainability, as you said, it's a purpose that is a long term purpose, they're not going to be buffeted around by the wind. I wanted to hear from you about the business case for sustainability. I mean, there can be, there's a lot of rhetoric about the science, but then there's also, I think one of the most compelling arguments is business. So I'm wondering what you're seeing there in terms of the industry and how we're looking at the business case rather than it's a moral imperative. Tanya Popeau: I'm glad you brought that up because I always talk about the business case first. And if I actually just take us back to Convene 4 Climate Rotterdam. We opened and one of the panel speakers was Ben and Jerry's. I can't remember her title, but Ben and Jerry's Lead for Social Mission. And when I asked her, you know, if you were a sustainability professional within your organizations, where would you start? And she said, start with the business case. And so obviously one of the biggest things that we talk about at PCMA and I personally believe in, is that business should be focused. You should be allowed to focus on profit and driving revenue and driving change at the same time. And that's more than possible. And so lots of the companies that we had at Convene 4 Climate, they were demonstrating the same thing. And it is about innovating within your model. I think it's always about innovating, looking at your services and your products to see how you can design products and services that have a dual purpose of driving both profit and change. It is possible those companies are doing it. So Ben and Jerry's emerged as a company that want, or I should say involved as a company that wanted to do both and continue to do both. And they have three pillars that they focus on, one being economic, one being social, one being environmental. But they're very clear that the economic must remain at the heart of what they're doing because that's the very nature of business. And I think the final stage is that Generation Z Alpha, all of those coming up, they really, really, really care. And they may not have the biggest economic pot at the moment, but they will do. And the other area that they really shift corporations is, you know, they ask consistently about sustainability. It's very much a passion of theirs and at the heart of what they do. So if you want to continue to hire top talent and attract top talent to your corporate or for profit business, then you have to be able to demonstrate your sust. Michelle Russell: Well, I wish Ben and Jerry would have a fourth pillar which would be dietary, so that we could enjoy enjoying ice cream with fewer calories. But aside from that, I was wondering what you thought of the. I was very heartened to see that new conference that the inaugural conference in Santa Marta about. Have you seen it? It was an article in the Guardian and they're not putting in at the beginning the actual name of the conference. Anyway, it was a conference about getting away from fossil fuel. And it was, it was specific to that. And they talked about a couple of things. One was that the current situation with the Strait of Hormuz was actually a good thing for this conference because it brought the problem of fossil fuel to the forest. And on all of the pictures there are women, women leaders who are really pushing this forward, this agenda forward. And I see some. One of the delegates at the conference had a red hat that said make science great again, which we here love to hear here in the United States. So you haven't seen anything about that conference? Tanya Popeau: No, I haven't. I mean, I love what you're saying. Obviously anything that showed us a dependency on fossil fuels or a dependency on any sustainable activ is how vulnerable we are. You know, going back to Barbara's point and joining your point, that's why that's where the business case really comes from. And those businesses who are still pushing hard understand what happened during COVID for example, their supply chains became vulnerable people materials they were unable to source materials. So those that source locally obviously had that competitive advantage. And it's the same with fossil fuels. You know, I always say we're talking about a transition. We cannot do it overnight. But unless we make a plan to transition away from fossil fuels and be less dependent, we are going to be in trouble. And to those companies that are listening and are aggressively moving towards more renewable sources, it is in my mind proven that they are going to have a competitive advantage and at one point going to be way more advanced than those companies that are still heavily reliant and those countries that are still heavily reliant and continue to invest exclusively, if you like, in fossil fuels rather than having a plan to transition, you're going to be in trouble. Magdalina Atanassova: Barbara, I feel like you had something to say. Barbara Palmer: Well, I would just agree. I was just very much agreeing with the point about the vulnerability of depending on fossil fuels. And I was just thinking about what conferences do is bring people together with different points of view. And I feel like what I'm happy to hear about the conference that Michelle was talking about is that I think some of that discussion has been shut down. I know there's been a lot of move towards removing scientists from positions, scientists that held strong positions on fossil fuels and carbon. Those scientists have been removed from positions of influence. When I was thinking about your talk, I looked back to a story about a meeting that was a sign of early opposition to climate change discussions in the current administration. It was the EPA chief was planning to have a debate where there were scientists that they called this team that talked about, here's the evidence against climate change and human involvement in climate change. And here are the scientists that, that are presenting evidence that yes, we are affecting climate change and we need to take drastic steps. And that was canceled. And I feel like when you cancel those discussions that, that really causes great destruction. And so, like you said, not every country and not every entity is taking that route. So I think you can push it down in one place, but it's going to pop up everywhere else. You cannot stop the whole world from talking about and discussing the merits. And I feel like that the way that science is, we know that everything about that is subject to new information. But to not talk about it, I think it causes real harm. Tanya Popeau: Yeah, I guess I think a few things then. One, I think as we've spoken about, we're talking about business events and therefore business at large. This discussion infiltrated business and integrated into business. Throughout the last five years, okay, there's been a halt. And some of those businesses have turned back and dialed back on their climate goals. We know this, but for many of them, they still stand firm. And that makes me recall that kind of famous saying that administrations change, but businesses change, stay the same, or businesses remain, don't they? So effectively in, you know, in the, in administrative cycle, we see new presidents. But effectively, businesses are around for what, 20, 30, 100 years. And they, because they know that they're much more invested and much more focused on long term. At least a good proportion of them are. The other thing is, it brings me back to what I said sustainability was Underground. It really was. I used to. I used to meet, you know, the UN officers and they'd say, I'm depressed. We're in this, we're in the department. When nobody was listening. And suddenly it was the complete opposite. Which means, like you're saying, you can push it. Maybe. It's definitely. There's no denying that it's come off the top of the agenda for many people, even those businesses that remain firm, maybe it's not on the highest level of their agenda, but it's still there. Which means, and unfortunately, what happened really, at the start of 2020, it took crisis, it took a catastrophe to bring it to the forefront. Whatever it takes again, because it's not going away, it is my kind of understanding that it will have to come to the forefront again because really, what we're talking about, to me, we are in an evolution cycle both with AI. The way AI is going to transform every area of our lives, I think that's a given. It's the same with sustainability. It's the same. If I think about in the UK, the way, well, globally we moved from heavy industry, you know, steel to coal, to the light industry, technology. It had to happen because we. It wasn't profitable. And so whatever the driver, whatever the trigger, it will come back again to me and it will have to be at the forefront because businesses, society, cannot continue the way it is. Jennifer N. Dienst: I would love to know your thoughts on AI and sustainability and kind of how you see those merging and potentially affecting how people plan more sustainable meetings. What kind of popped into my mind when you, when you mentioned that was we just finished a story on food waste and there's like, there seems to be more and more tools for chefs in the kitchen to use AI to help with measuring food waste or just like technology in general. So I'm so curious what you think about that. Like, is there anything new that you're just like, oh, wow, that's going to change things. Tanya Popeau: So I think it is going to transform sustainability from measurement, from new technologies that will help us a measure, but also transform energy into more palatable kind of sources for us. It will help transition the renewal energy sector. All of those things. We know it's important because I know sustainability professionals are screaming at me right now to mention, whilst we have the advancement of AI, it's also creating its own problems with, as we know, energy, you know, excess, etc. We will deal with that, though. I absolutely believe, and I do believe the positives will outweigh the negatives. I think everything you're saying from our own internal PCMA. Is it Spark or Destinaitor? Well, they're using AI for location but also for, you know, adding in sustainable elements of the event planning to help with planners. But I also think it's still things like the everyday. If I walk through my local shopping mall around 11pm at night, it hurts me to see the amount of food that is still being thrown away. How can we connect an entire supply chain with, you know, those living in food poverty, you know, just 5, 10, 15. It's those kinds of things. We are to me, as I said in that kind, just as we were kind of 20, 25 years ago in that massive digital revolution. It's another cycle and this is where I would call on all of the innovators and all of the entrepreneurs to really utilize AI. And it's happening to, you know, all of the time. If I go to events, people are always coming up to telling me they've got this latest app or this latest kind of, you know, website that is being transformed or AI is at the background which is going to drive change across a particular sustainability area. So I don't think it's one area that we can pinpoint right now. I think so much is concentrated around energy because we already had lots of climate tech already. And this is what people are looking at crucially at, you know, energy transformation, but also at measurement. But I just think AI fashion, for example, I know it's not specifically around, you know, business events, but materials tracking our fashion labels, being able to source, that's going to, I think, majorly change. I think there's so much that we haven't seen yet. I think we don't really fully understand the capability at the moment. But I just think if you look across every single area of the supply chain and the value chain when it comes to business events is going to hit it. I think it's going to transform every area in a positive way. We just need to keep the energy usage down. Jennifer N. Dienst: Of course I love that take because I feel like it's doom or gloom or, you know, a lot of times with, with AI which, you know, it's like any, it's like anything, it's like it can be used for evil, can be used for good. Like I saw an example of, I think it's Mark Cuban started, I think an app or a platform or something that uses AI that people can use to essentially fight their health insurance companies. Tanya Popeau: Oh, wow. Jennifer N. Dienst: To yeah, the ones that are getting like, you know, rejected and just having like a really tough time Getting approved. And I'm like, that is the, we need that, like, we need to put this to work. Doing things like that, doing the things that are so beyond complicated and uncomplicating, you know, those things. That's like where I, I love to see AI heading. Like, that's where I'm rooting for it. Tanya Popeau: Absolutely. And if you think PCMA, the medical associations, one of the biggest ways it's going to, is democratize kind of medical healthcare information knowledge, particularly across developing countries. It will bring us together even greater than the Internet did. So I was listening to something yesterday and it talked, obviously one of the major things that could be lost, which is the authenticity about whatever we're doing. You know, how fake obviously AI can be. And I heard something yesterday when they, they said businesses are spending huge amounts to bring back the imperfections. So if you think about the way I'm thinking of business events, and they would use exactly AI and just making sure, they would spend huge amounts of money to make sure that it's not too perfect because we don't respond to that perfection. So I thought that's really, really interesting. And that will impact business, event planners, marketers as much as anything. Barbara Palmer: What you just said is a perfect segue into what I was thinking. And you reminded me. I feel like if imperfection is in, my time has finally come. Tanya Popeau: So excited about that. Barbara Palmer: But one of the things, one of the things that I think, you know, if you frame sustainability as a takeaway, like, oh, we're going to take this away, we're going to take that away because it's such a grim future. The other side is what you gain and what you gain in authenticity. Like, who doesn't like to go to a place for a meeting and have the local cuisine where they found the local vendors and the farms that are nearby, and maybe they bring in the person who caught your fish, eats with you. Like, that experience is the definition, I think, of experiential events. And I think that can just be threaded to every aspect of you. Like, do you want to really hold a little cold, little plastic cup when you can get a warm china cup with your coffee? I mean, all of these things, I think really make a tangible difference in our emotional connection to events. And I think that those are part of sustainability. And I think that that is sometimes a part that is forgotten. And people want more time. You know, they say, oh, meetings are so scheduled. It's just a more kind of human pace that can be brought into meetings that can be expressed through sustainability. Tanya Popeau: I Absolutely agree. You know, sustainability has been, I don't know, hijacked or I think we need. We talk about or. You wrote an article about it recently, the way it needs to be rebranded and everybody always focus on detraction and limit and what needs to be stripped. And I think this is where obviously I come from, that innovation background. What about the amazing new ways of doing things, new models, new technologies, but not just new technologies, new business models, new products, new services that will come to life. It's not just about, you know, I'm really not with that kind of school of thought that means sustainability. You know, it's all brown bag and we don't enjoy any gifts anymore. Like nobody's trying to take away Christmas. I don't believe that. But it just, I think, look, when you look at history and you look at the kind of business models that we have before, they have all been designed to return profit to the stakeholder or to the shareholders, the main shareholders. That's the issue. If we started from a basis, and that's obviously lots of my background when I've worked with large corporates or companies, we start from a basis of how can we design business models, business events that drive profit and change at the same time. We didn't have that mindset before. We were just focused on returning profit and brilliant. We've done a great job. That's what businesses do. So we need to reframe that and start from the beginning and then innovatively design business models, events, products and services that work for all of the stakeholders, including people and planet. It's more than doable. I think we get so stuck in the past that this is the way it's done before, therefore, this is how we always have to do it. Whereas I think, you know, we just need to roll the dial again. And it's all about evolving into a new space. Magdalina Atanassova: Do you have any examples from our industry and what you're seeing maybe teams doing right now? Especially now that I'm thinking you're looking towards Convene 4 Climate and you're working with partners and so forth. So do you have any examples? Tanya Popeau: I do not necessarily, but I'm going to use this opportunity as a shameless plug because you talk about Convene 4 Climate Lisbon, and I'm not sure whether it's been aired, it's a bit of a sneak preview. But we are just about to launch something which globally will allow people to bring their solutions to us. So if you ask me that in October, I'm going to have a whole Repository of solutions which across, you know, which showcase innovative kind of ideas practices across the whole entire value chain for business events. So watch this space and give me a few months and I'll come back and answer your question. Magdalina Atanassova: I love it. And maybe that's a good invitation to people to looking Convene 4 Climate and market on their calendars apply it's with the application, right? It's not just you show up. Tanya Popeau: Watch out for the announcement on Monday 18th May, watch out on LinkedIn. So if they're not following us already or if they haven't registered for Convene 4 Climate change, do so because we're about to launch something very, very exciting Magdalina Atanassova: awesome like it, you know, that's what we're here for, to announce good news and like sneak peeks and what are the signals, even the small ones that tell you sustainability efforts are still progressing even if the narrative feels noisy. Tanya Popeau: I love that question. So I always feel like I do have rose tinted glasses. However, I'm out and about all of the time events talking to large corporates and I am talking to people on the ground. So as I said, when I talk to corporates, they're still very much firmly there. And even inside, you know, at some of the biggest banks, I think people forget that people work in organizations, people who actually care. So they may not have written their plan or they may not have decided to remove, you know, that climate change goal or credential from their large global plan, but they still care. And so we still have power as people. And that's all I hear. And obviously people always come up to me and tell me this needs to change and that needs to change and what can we do? I also look on my own LinkedIn with, you know, lots of followers from some of the major corporations, they're still in it. So I would say to anybody who cares or is maybe a bit despondent at this time or just there's lots of despairing, I think that we hold firm, hold firm. I think there's still going to be significant change in this area. Barbara Palmer: So I have just encountered some research about how many more women leaders there are in sustainability compared to the average globally. The rate of women that are vice presidents in sustainability roles is 63%. And so it occurred to me, and it's in the context of the story about the young women that were at convening leaders, that this is actually a really good place in our industry for people to take on roles in sustainability in events. Could you speak to that a little Bit like, what do you think about that? Tanya Popeau: Well, do you know, I can absolutely believe that because last year when I was focusing on finding speakers, I. I had to work really, really hard to find men. So it was very, very interesting, I guess. And I don't know, you know, these stats, but I guess if you looked in the charitable sector, you'd probably find a similar, you know, area. I guess it's around, you know, women and. God, I don't want to make these stereotypes, but compassion and driving change in these areas. So it's a similar area. I mean, I certainly know that. I've equally been to lots of competitors where there are, you know, male CEOs. I think what happens is. Or what I've seen. So if I think of the CEO that they are kind of reporting into, it often tends to be a man. But I've certainly seen lots of female kind of sustainability professionals. I don't know. I don't know the explanation for that, but certainly it provides, I guess, an avenue and a route, and there are lots of models. There are lots of different women who are championing this area and succeeding in this area. Certainly. I agree. That's what I've seen. Well, that was. Barbara Palmer: That response was just gold for what I'm working on right now. Magdalina Atanassova: So thank you. Tanya Popeau: Yeah, thanks. And thank you. Barbara Palmer: Thank you, Maggie. Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah, I love that. Thank you, Tanya, so much for your time and insights. And we love having you with us and giving a little bit more nuance to what we're seeing, because sometimes, you know, we are in our little bubble. And it's really helpful when you can bring this different light, especially when you're working with different industries and when you're speaking with different professionals. So it's been awesome. Thank you for joining us. Tanya Popeau: Thank you so much. And thank you, as ever, for all your support with C4C. It's been amazing. I really, really appreciate it. Magdalina Atanassova: Remember to subscribe to the Convene Podcast on your favorite listening platform to stay updated with our latest episodes. For further industry insights from the Convene team, head over to PCMA.org/convene. My name is Maggie. Stay inspired. Keep inspiring. And until next time.