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SMNTY Classics: Bro-rista Coffee Culture · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm welcome to stuff.
0:07
Speaker 1: I never told your protection of iHeart Radio. So recently
0:19
Speaker 1: we did a happy Hour on Bat Bat Soda, which
0:22
Speaker 1: is a coffee soda, and we mentioned that there's a
0:25
Speaker 1: classic episode about kind of this bro coffee culture, and
0:31
Speaker 1: this is that episode that we wanted to rerun this classic. So, Samantha,
0:36
Speaker 1: I want to ask you, when did you start drinking coffee?
0:38
Speaker 1: Did you like it immediately? Uh? Yeah, I think it
0:42
Speaker 1: may even one of those drinks that that I knew
0:45
Speaker 1: was cool and adult like and so wanted to like
0:47
Speaker 1: it desperately. But I am a huge I had this
0:50
Speaker 1: huge thing. I think it started in Korea. It's like,
0:53
Speaker 1: these are vague memories and I've talked about my food
0:56
Speaker 1: sin three things from childhood that I have a memory
0:59
Speaker 1: of the powdered coffee mate creamer and loving that in coffee,
1:05
Speaker 1: like it tastes like caramel sugar to me, and I
1:07
Speaker 1: would eat it playne. I think I mixed it in
1:12
Speaker 1: hot water one time without the coffee, but that love
1:16
Speaker 1: translated into putting it in coffee and just loving it.
1:19
Speaker 1: And I don't know why. Like y'all have some weird associations.
1:23
Speaker 1: But I have an association of going to funeral homes
1:27
Speaker 1: as a child and drinking this coffee with the screamer
1:31
Speaker 1: because that was allowed since something traumatic was happening around
1:35
Speaker 1: me that I wasn't really watched too carefully, and no
1:37
Speaker 1: one stopped me from drinking this coffee and I loved it.
1:40
Speaker 1: That's that kind of the beginning, interesting, odd journey that
1:43
Speaker 1: I went on with coffee. But since then, growing into
1:45
Speaker 1: like getting older, I don't know there was a coffee
1:49
Speaker 1: at my house, though I will say that my parents
1:51
Speaker 1: never drank coffee. College when I really got into the
1:54
Speaker 1: coffee coffee scene and then got snobby into the coffee
1:57
Speaker 1: coffee coffee scene. Are you got snobby? Oh? Yeah? Like
2:00
Speaker 1: I had a lot of friends in independent coffee world,
2:04
Speaker 1: and so I knew about the brewing and the weighing
2:07
Speaker 1: and the tasting and the cupping and all of that
2:10
Speaker 1: at all tasting notes. I have some stories. But I
2:14
Speaker 1: got caught up in the world. I got caught up
2:16
Speaker 1: in that world. There's this whole like masa competition world,
2:19
Speaker 1: like so many things, and I got caught up in
2:21
Speaker 1: it for a little while. Since then, I have now
2:24
Speaker 1: changed over to Trainer Joe's because my coffee maker goes
2:27
Speaker 1: through coffee a lot, so I can't afford the very
2:30
Speaker 1: expensive but delicious coffee. Yes, well, I guess we should
2:35
Speaker 1: put a note in here. We are not currently sponsored
2:36
Speaker 1: by anyone we're mentioning, but if you want to I
2:40
Speaker 1: need more coffee, we're here. I love a good coffee sponsorship.
2:45
Speaker 1: I have a similar story, I don't think. I think.
2:49
Speaker 1: I I also really desperately wanted to like coffee because
2:52
Speaker 1: I felt like it was an adult beverage that everyone like.
2:58
Speaker 1: When I would watch entertain a mint Um they were
3:01
Speaker 1: drinking coffee. My mom drink it growing up, and I
3:06
Speaker 1: didn't like it, but I would force myself to drink
3:08
Speaker 1: it because I felt like it made me kind of cool.
3:11
Speaker 1: And eventually I did grow to to love it and
3:16
Speaker 1: I went through It's almost similar to my journey with
3:19
Speaker 1: alcoholic beverages, where I went through like my very sweet
3:23
Speaker 1: frappuccino days. I went through like you know, the coffee
3:27
Speaker 1: that has a thousand one galories in it, like love
3:31
Speaker 1: that did that Eventually wheedled that down to once a year,
3:35
Speaker 1: like around my birthday. Yes, yes, I just tried to
3:39
Speaker 1: pink drink. Shout out to our listener Jamie, it was
3:42
Speaker 1: pretty good. I've never had that. That was a weird,
3:44
Speaker 1: like that was a different option in Starbucks that I scacifically.
3:47
Speaker 1: I go for like like the same espresso drinks, but
3:51
Speaker 1: I was like, what does this pink drink with strawberries
3:53
Speaker 1: in it? And Jamie was like, this is what it is.
3:56
Speaker 1: I was like, oh cool. But anyway, but that was
3:58
Speaker 1: kind of like the indulgence like coffee coffee shop, that's
4:01
Speaker 1: like what do we do with these? Yeah, you'll have
4:06
Speaker 1: to give me more deeds on that later because, as
4:09
Speaker 1: it was made clear to Smith a recently, caffeine affects
4:13
Speaker 1: me very very strongly. So I have to like plan
4:16
Speaker 1: these things out. And I have a lot of memories.
4:19
Speaker 1: I think coffee is a very strong flavor, and it
4:22
Speaker 1: has a strong aroma, and it is ubiquitous and a
4:26
Speaker 1: lot of where in my experience anyway, So I do
4:30
Speaker 1: have a lot of memories of like whether it's being
4:32
Speaker 1: in the hospital and get that cheap coffee that's so bitter,
4:36
Speaker 1: or are being at work and you get are like
4:39
Speaker 1: office coffee machine. Like they just have all these memories
4:41
Speaker 1: with it and all these connections with it, and it's odd,
4:46
Speaker 1: as we say with a lot of things, it's odd
4:48
Speaker 1: that it's been so gendered in a lot of ways,
4:51
Speaker 1: and it's judged in a lot of ways based on
4:53
Speaker 1: what you like. And recently, if you have any interest
4:57
Speaker 1: in learning more about the history of coffee, run savor.
5:00
Speaker 1: We have a history of coffee one and we had
5:02
Speaker 1: we just did instant coffee and people had a lot
5:04
Speaker 1: of thoughts about it, which was interesting because I grew
5:07
Speaker 1: up drinking instant coffee and I still will sometimes like
5:10
Speaker 1: I've got no real issue with it, but yeah, this
5:12
Speaker 1: gendering of it that I do think is changing, but
5:16
Speaker 1: it was for a good minute kind of this like
5:19
Speaker 1: real bro coffee culture. Yeah, yes, so uh. This classic
5:25
Speaker 1: episode goes all into that and we hope that you
5:28
Speaker 1: enjoy it. Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You From
5:34
Speaker 1: how stupports dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
5:43
Speaker 1: I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline. And Caroline, I gotta tell
5:46
Speaker 1: you that every day I need a cup of coffee
5:50
Speaker 1: in the morning. Oh heck, yeah, me too. Yeah. I
5:53
Speaker 1: have a good friend who just wakes up and drinks
5:57
Speaker 1: a water with a squeeze of lemon in it. And
6:00
Speaker 1: I tried that one morning, and while it was semi refreshing,
6:05
Speaker 1: I needed my coffee. Now, lemon doesn't propel me forward
6:09
Speaker 1: in my footsteps down the street. Only coffee can do that. Yeah,
6:13
Speaker 1: and it gives me some It gives me literally a
6:15
Speaker 1: reason to get out of bed. I like it that much. Um.
6:19
Speaker 1: And so that's one of the reasons why an article
6:22
Speaker 1: over at Bitch Magazine caught my eye not too long ago.
6:27
Speaker 1: It was by Lisa Nicely. It's called the slow roasted
6:31
Speaker 1: Sexism of specialty Coffee. And I have to admit when
6:35
Speaker 1: Kristen suggested we talk about gender and the coffee industry,
6:40
Speaker 1: I drew a blank. She threw hot coffee in my
6:43
Speaker 1: face and said, you're crazy. Then I shuffled my papers
6:47
Speaker 1: and walked away. Um. Yeah, no, I really didn't know
6:50
Speaker 1: that there was this whole I don't want to say underbelly.
6:53
Speaker 1: That sounds like we're talking about something that's very seedy.
6:55
Speaker 1: But I had no idea that there was this aspect
6:58
Speaker 1: to this whole culture. Yeah, I had no idea either.
7:01
Speaker 1: I mean, I think you and I are both well
7:03
Speaker 1: aware of the specialty coffee industry. Um. But yeah, when
7:10
Speaker 1: once you start digging into the gender, it gets really fascinating.
7:14
Speaker 1: So first, let's just talk a little bit about what
7:17
Speaker 1: we mean by specialty coffee. We're gonna get into just
7:20
Speaker 1: coffee coffee, but this really kicks off with a conversation
7:24
Speaker 1: about specialty coffee, which is really devoted to giving consumers
7:30
Speaker 1: a high quality coffee experience, which is not what I
7:33
Speaker 1: do every morning for myself. Me neither, no, but it
7:37
Speaker 1: is experience, italicized experience. Yes, um. But the people in
7:43
Speaker 1: this industry, the specialty coffee industry, really pay attention to
7:46
Speaker 1: every level of the coffee making process, the different bean varieties,
7:51
Speaker 1: the soil it's grown in, the correct way to roast it,
7:54
Speaker 1: the different flavor profiles and aromas, the acidity, the espresso dosage,
8:00
Speaker 1: and the flawless service and presentation at last. And you
8:04
Speaker 1: might think that the history of specialty coffee just begins
8:08
Speaker 1: with Starbucks, but actually it was unheard of before nineteen
8:12
Speaker 1: seventy four, And that was the year when a lady
8:16
Speaker 1: named Irma Knutson use the term for the first time
8:20
Speaker 1: in the Tea and Coffee Trade Journal. And essentially, specialty
8:24
Speaker 1: coffee denotes what at that time was somewhat radical idea
8:30
Speaker 1: of how different geographic microclimates of where coffee is grown
8:36
Speaker 1: produces various flavor profiles, and so specialty coffee emerges as
8:42
Speaker 1: this brewing craft that really seeks to preserve the integrity
8:48
Speaker 1: and intensity of those different flavors. Yeah. And I would
8:54
Speaker 1: just like to note that my brother in law works
8:58
Speaker 1: in specialty coffee, and and I enjoy going to him
9:03
Speaker 1: and my sister's house because I know I'm going to
9:06
Speaker 1: get amazing coffee. The only downside, Caroline, is because of
9:10
Speaker 1: this attention to detail in the morning, when I wake
9:13
Speaker 1: up and I want my cup of coffee immediately, I
9:15
Speaker 1: usually have to wait about half an hour because it's
9:19
Speaker 1: you know, he meticulously weighs out the beans and does
9:24
Speaker 1: the special kind of drip coffee brewing technique that takes
9:29
Speaker 1: a lot longer. This is not your K cup pop
9:32
Speaker 1: it in. Don't even get him started on K cups. Um. Yeah,
9:37
Speaker 1: it's incredible. I mean, the the final product is so rich,
9:41
Speaker 1: and it's very caffeinated, and it's a very lively experience
9:47
Speaker 1: drinking this. But it's a it's a process. I'm picturing
9:51
Speaker 1: you in a pharmaceutical company ad when you're talking about
9:54
Speaker 1: this coffee, like you said lively, and I'm just picturing
9:57
Speaker 1: you like bounding around, like all right, coffee. After I
10:01
Speaker 1: have a cup of his coffee, you are bounding around.
10:04
Speaker 1: It is incredible, but you just you have to wait
10:06
Speaker 1: for it. It's it's slow. Does he use one of
10:08
Speaker 1: those like kim X beaker things with ye? Fancy? I
10:12
Speaker 1: don't have I don't have the patients. I just want
10:14
Speaker 1: my coffee grounds that I get from whatever store and
10:18
Speaker 1: I want to pour them in the filter in my
10:19
Speaker 1: little whatever brand it is, coffee made or whatever, and
10:22
Speaker 1: I just wanted to drip and brew. I need it more,
10:26
Speaker 1: I need it faster, exactly. Well, there are so many
10:30
Speaker 1: people who are invested in specialty coffee that it's a
10:34
Speaker 1: massive industry. Now. It's worth in the US alone thirty
10:37
Speaker 1: billion dollars a year. That's all mugs sold at Starbucks.
10:42
Speaker 1: That's all that money is. It's all frappuccinos. That's it.
10:46
Speaker 1: And so getting back to that bitch article, you might
10:48
Speaker 1: be thinking, well, where is the sexism and that Well
10:51
Speaker 1: at Lesta nicely argues that, as often happens in industries
10:57
Speaker 1: like this, is reminiscent of our conversations about women and them.
11:00
Speaker 1: As things including coffee have become more specialized, you often
11:05
Speaker 1: see a masculinization of that industry. Once the profits start
11:11
Speaker 1: going up and you you start developing different craft and
11:16
Speaker 1: specialty around it, more men come into the fold, and
11:21
Speaker 1: rather than coffee serving being something that you know, waitresses
11:25
Speaker 1: are doing in diners, now you have Barrista's right. It's
11:30
Speaker 1: all about kind of social prestige being associated with it,
11:33
Speaker 1: and that leads to higher wages. And as this happens,
11:37
Speaker 1: it's harder for women to get in and then advance
11:40
Speaker 1: in the field once they're in it, and so a
11:42
Speaker 1: lot of this ties into wages, career advancement, or even
11:46
Speaker 1: something like coffee competitions. Yeah, and we're gonna get into
11:52
Speaker 1: those contemporary gender issues with coffee, but first we've got
11:56
Speaker 1: to talk about the gendered history of coffee and coffee
11:59
Speaker 1: houses because it's it's really fascinating, Yeah, and so exclusive,
12:07
Speaker 1: so exclusive of women. But so um, let's go back
12:12
Speaker 1: way back to when coffee was first introduced, and it
12:16
Speaker 1: was pretty much entirely unknown before the middle of the
12:19
Speaker 1: fifteenth century, at which point it was expanding in the
12:22
Speaker 1: Red Sea basin area. So that's like the Ottoman Empire.
12:26
Speaker 1: It spreads to the Ottoman Empire over the sixteenth century,
12:30
Speaker 1: goes over to Venice. People in Venice are drinking it,
12:33
Speaker 1: physicians are using it. Then we have Western scholars and
12:37
Speaker 1: botanists who start talking about this fancy new plant. Then
12:41
Speaker 1: physicians in the West start talking about it too, and
12:44
Speaker 1: then the original hipsters come in the the English travelers
12:50
Speaker 1: like Sir Henry Blunt who visited Turkey and realized that, hey,
12:54
Speaker 1: you know what, not only are the Turks not so bad,
12:56
Speaker 1: but they have this incredible hot beverage and it is
13:00
Speaker 1: called coffee, and it's the best drink a man can drink.
13:04
Speaker 1: And we should note that a lot of this info
13:06
Speaker 1: is coming from this book we found called The Social
13:09
Speaker 1: Life of Coffee The Emergence of the British Coffee House
13:13
Speaker 1: by Brian William Cohen, and Cohen talks about how coffee
13:17
Speaker 1: houses really started developing into the central institution for the
13:22
Speaker 1: consumption of coffee and complementary exotic goods in Britain in
13:29
Speaker 1: the seventeenth century, right, And why did that happen? It
13:32
Speaker 1: was because of those original hipsters. There was this group
13:35
Speaker 1: of Englishmen who called themselves the Virtuosi. And what's key
13:39
Speaker 1: here about their their self descriptor is that it's an
13:42
Speaker 1: Italian word for individuals who were interested in promoting the
13:45
Speaker 1: arts and antiquities. They were basically seeking to align themselves
13:49
Speaker 1: with this fascinating international world of elite cultural interests. They
13:55
Speaker 1: were curious about the outside world. They wanted to develop
13:58
Speaker 1: a body of knowledge about it and all of the
14:00
Speaker 1: fancy exoticisms and rarities. And some of them got to travel,
14:04
Speaker 1: some of them didn't, but regardless, they wanted to get
14:07
Speaker 1: together and talk about all of those fancy things. And
14:09
Speaker 1: these virtuosly helped promote coffee as an excellent alternative to
14:15
Speaker 1: alcohol because it has those stimulant factors. You can get
14:18
Speaker 1: a buzz for sure off of coffee, right. But the
14:21
Speaker 1: way people talk about it, it's so funny. They align it.
14:23
Speaker 1: They align it with booze, they align it with heroin
14:26
Speaker 1: and opium and all sorts of stuff like nobody seems
14:29
Speaker 1: to trust this like hot, dark beverage that can cause
14:34
Speaker 1: you to to quake in your boots, and it's funny.
14:38
Speaker 1: The thing that really really struck me is that the
14:40
Speaker 1: way people back then all the way in the sixteen
14:43
Speaker 1: hundreds talked about coffee is the way people talk about
14:45
Speaker 1: coffee today. All sorts of people were saying, Oh, it's terrible,
14:49
Speaker 1: how can you like that stuff? And yet how in
14:52
Speaker 1: love with it? A lot of people are. They say
14:55
Speaker 1: that it's an acquired taste, like tobacco, and Cowan even
14:58
Speaker 1: compares it to smoking pot, and he points out that
15:01
Speaker 1: it's almost like coffee was made to be a social thing.
15:04
Speaker 1: He says, quote, acquiring a taste for such products requires
15:07
Speaker 1: a process of socialization and habituation in which the novice
15:11
Speaker 1: user learns to make sense of and enjoy their psychoactive
15:14
Speaker 1: effects and their taste. And so, you know, just like
15:18
Speaker 1: you go to Starbucks or wherever whatever local coffee house
15:20
Speaker 1: and sit down and sip your coffee, it was the
15:23
Speaker 1: same thing back in the day. Men were going to
15:25
Speaker 1: these coffee houses, training themselves to enjoy it and suck
15:29
Speaker 1: it down so that they could have all of these
15:31
Speaker 1: political and philosophical discussions with each other. Yeah, because as
15:35
Speaker 1: the popularity of coffee is brewing in the late seventeenth
15:40
Speaker 1: and early eighteenth centuries, you also have the emergence of
15:44
Speaker 1: consumer society and public sphere of people being out and
15:49
Speaker 1: like you said, gathering and talking about things and trading
15:52
Speaker 1: ideas and talking about current events. And the coffee house
15:56
Speaker 1: is such a prime example of that because you're going
15:59
Speaker 1: there being seen out, you're purchasing something. It's a unique
16:03
Speaker 1: social space in which class and rink are temporarily ignored
16:09
Speaker 1: to the benefit of political and philosophical conversations, allowing those
16:14
Speaker 1: ideas to flourish. And walk into a coffee house today
16:19
Speaker 1: and you'll probably see a group of people. You'll see
16:22
Speaker 1: a lot of people on their mac books, like from
16:25
Speaker 1: you know all on Twitter, but you'll also see one
16:28
Speaker 1: little cluster of people talking. Yeah, oh yeah, I mean
16:32
Speaker 1: speaking of that, I went into a coffee house during
16:34
Speaker 1: the snowpocalypse here in Atlanta, hoping to get a warm
16:36
Speaker 1: beverage and sit down in a corner. There was literally
16:39
Speaker 1: literally not an open space anywhere because everybody had their
16:43
Speaker 1: freaking computers. Oh yeah, and I looked Adam like you
16:46
Speaker 1: people could do this at home, But technically I could
16:49
Speaker 1: have done that at home too, but it's part of
16:51
Speaker 1: that coffee house five. You want to be out around people,
16:55
Speaker 1: and so by seventy the coffeehouse and coffee consumption is
16:59
Speaker 1: firm only entrenched in British society. But uh, even though
17:05
Speaker 1: a lot of people are drinking it by this point,
17:07
Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily have the best reputation because you know,
17:12
Speaker 1: some people compared it to you know, tobacco, alcoholics and
17:15
Speaker 1: an acquired taste. Not everybody got coffee. Yeah, and the
17:20
Speaker 1: people who thought they got coffee kind of got it wrong.
17:23
Speaker 1: They it was considered by a lot of people to
17:26
Speaker 1: be an anti aphrodisiac that could not only render men
17:30
Speaker 1: impotent but women barren, as opposed to chocolate, which hot
17:34
Speaker 1: chocolate was considered to be an aphrodisiac. So there's your
17:36
Speaker 1: bit of Valentine's trivia. But so anyway, I mean, the
17:40
Speaker 1: scare tactics around coffee are kind of ridiculous. The virtuos
17:44
Speaker 1: eat travel reports of Indigenous women incapacitating their husbands with
17:49
Speaker 1: drugs before engaging in adultery all went back to coffee.
17:53
Speaker 1: They talked about Sultan's developing an aversion to women because
17:56
Speaker 1: of it in coffee houses in Turkey and Persia keeping
17:59
Speaker 1: male prostitutes. So coffee is like tied up in all
18:03
Speaker 1: of these fears about like homosexuality and adultery and basically
18:09
Speaker 1: sinful sex. But in England that's actually seen as a bonus,
18:14
Speaker 1: these potentially de sexualizing qualities of coffee that they think
18:20
Speaker 1: is happening, um because they actually see coffee as something
18:26
Speaker 1: that helps preserve chastity. Drink it and you won't want
18:30
Speaker 1: to have sex so well, so all of these assumptions
18:34
Speaker 1: and stereotypes start attracting attention on their own. We get
18:40
Speaker 1: some mock petition pamphlets circulating that claim to represent women
18:44
Speaker 1: who were sick and tired of their men, using quote
18:47
Speaker 1: that drying in feebling liquor. They said that men were
18:51
Speaker 1: visiting coffee houses too much, thereby losing their masculine sexual vigor,
18:55
Speaker 1: and that coffee drinkers were likely to be cuckled by dildos,
18:59
Speaker 1: and that this meant the English state was likely declining. Yeah,
19:02
Speaker 1: and all of this was happening leading up to that
19:05
Speaker 1: seventy mark where you know you have the coffee house
19:08
Speaker 1: firmly entrenched in British society. And but one of those
19:11
Speaker 1: mock pamphlets was called This came out in sixteen seventy
19:16
Speaker 1: four and it was called the Women's Petition against Coffee,
19:20
Speaker 1: representing to public consideration the grand inconveniences accruing to their
19:24
Speaker 1: sex from the excessive use of that drying and feebling
19:27
Speaker 1: liquor presented do the right honorable keepers of the Liberty
19:31
Speaker 1: of Venus by a well Willer. And apparently that last
19:35
Speaker 1: bit about the liberty of Venus and a well Willer
19:38
Speaker 1: it was an ironic reference to uh licentious men and prostitutes, right,
19:44
Speaker 1: And so nobody actually knows who wrote this pamphlet, whether
19:47
Speaker 1: it was a man or a woman, but everybody is
19:50
Speaker 1: pretty certain that it is satire of all of this,
19:54
Speaker 1: like worry worry going around about, you know, whether you
19:58
Speaker 1: were going to be impotent after you drink coffee. Yeah,
20:00
Speaker 1: it's a it's a little confusing. There's like a tandem
20:04
Speaker 1: coffee popularity and panic going on at the same time.
20:07
Speaker 1: But in terms of coffee houses and gender, while women
20:12
Speaker 1: were perfectly welcome to make plenty of tea and have
20:17
Speaker 1: their lady friends over to their drawing rooms, they were
20:22
Speaker 1: not very welcome in coffee houses, even though among men,
20:26
Speaker 1: as we mentioned, a coffee house we've seen as a
20:28
Speaker 1: place where your your social rank was momentarily ignored, but
20:33
Speaker 1: your gender certainly would not be ignored. No, definitely, And
20:36
Speaker 1: it wasn't like they had an equivalent space to go to,
20:40
Speaker 1: like you said, they they were expected to have tea
20:42
Speaker 1: at home. Women's coffee houses were generally an anomaly, and
20:46
Speaker 1: even their sheer presence, even if they were just the
20:49
Speaker 1: servers there or the proprietors, proprietors of the establishment, women
20:53
Speaker 1: being in the quote male coffee houses we're seeing as
20:56
Speaker 1: problems to overcome. They were seen as obstacles to their
21:00
Speaker 1: philosophical discussions, like the presence of breasts in a room
21:03
Speaker 1: will somehow prevent you from discussing matters of the day. Yeah,
21:07
Speaker 1: And if women were present in coffee houses, they might
21:10
Speaker 1: have been behind the bar, they might have been prostitutes,
21:14
Speaker 1: um or every now and then, they might have been
21:18
Speaker 1: someone like Hester Penney, who was a successful single woman
21:22
Speaker 1: in the lace business who actually spent a lot of
21:25
Speaker 1: time in British coffee houses. It was sort of how
21:27
Speaker 1: she networked for her business. And but she was but
21:32
Speaker 1: she was such an exception to the rule. Oh yeah,
21:35
Speaker 1: big time. I mean she had a lot of traveling,
21:37
Speaker 1: a lot of staying in rooms above coffee houses, above pubs,
21:41
Speaker 1: things like that. But you know, we should say too
21:44
Speaker 1: that this is largely focused on more urban metropolitan coffee
21:49
Speaker 1: houses in London. Coffee houses in more rural areas where
21:53
Speaker 1: a lot more relaxed, they tended to serve as the
21:55
Speaker 1: favored locale for rest, recreation and even matchmaking. Oh that
22:00
Speaker 1: like today, how one thing I like to do while
22:02
Speaker 1: I'm waiting for my coffee is look around to see
22:07
Speaker 1: whether or not you can spot like an okay Cupid date.
22:10
Speaker 1: It's always so obvious for some reason. They never have
22:14
Speaker 1: coffee in front of them. They usually have an empty table,
22:16
Speaker 1: and they're both leaning back a little bit in their chairs,
22:19
Speaker 1: and and both are nervously laughing. And usually I try
22:22
Speaker 1: to sit by them to leaves dropped, because I'm a
22:25
Speaker 1: total creep um. But the weird sort of womanly exclusion
22:31
Speaker 1: from coffee, these like strange gendered hangups that we had
22:35
Speaker 1: regarding coffee, did not subside or disappear, I should say.
22:40
Speaker 1: In the twentieth century, there's this strange bit of vintage advertising,
22:47
Speaker 1: like mid century advertising that you see that's all focused
22:51
Speaker 1: on selling coffee based on like husbands being mean to
22:57
Speaker 1: their wives. Can explain this, but than I it was
23:01
Speaker 1: all based on fear like, there are so many of
23:03
Speaker 1: these ads that show the woman being you know, scolded
23:08
Speaker 1: essentially by her husband for burning the coffee or making
23:10
Speaker 1: it too weak or something, and that the husband would
23:13
Speaker 1: withhold his affection until she made the right cup of coffee,
23:16
Speaker 1: and then he would give her a kiss on the cheek,
23:18
Speaker 1: or he would he would say like, oh, the girls
23:20
Speaker 1: down at the office can make a better cup than this. Well,
23:23
Speaker 1: and we should say that even up to this point,
23:24
Speaker 1: like in theties and fifties, coffee is still very much
23:28
Speaker 1: considered a man's drink. In Esquire, for instance, in they
23:34
Speaker 1: have a guide to making the perfect cup of coffee
23:36
Speaker 1: because quote, it's a man's drink and the average woman
23:40
Speaker 1: to this day can't make a good cup of coffee.
23:46
Speaker 1: That's so weird. I mean, my my vision of this
23:49
Speaker 1: era is like the housewife brewing the coffee, right. So
23:52
Speaker 1: it's like it's very much within the home sphere, within
23:55
Speaker 1: the woman's business at the home, and so it's just, uh,
24:00
Speaker 1: I don't know, advertising, it's averaging, it's advertising. Yeah, I
24:04
Speaker 1: think my favorite slash least favorite tagline advertising coffee advertising
24:09
Speaker 1: tagline that I saw was from a nineteen sixties commercial
24:12
Speaker 1: I'm not sure which coffee company it was for, but
24:16
Speaker 1: it was from a frustrated husband saying to the camera,
24:19
Speaker 1: how could such a pretty wife makes such bad coffee?
24:24
Speaker 1: W what where? Now this might seem like a stretch,
24:29
Speaker 1: but scholars have looked into the what it's called the
24:33
Speaker 1: gender coding of coffee, and even today you still hear
24:39
Speaker 1: that nineteen Esquire piece echoed in terms of it being
24:43
Speaker 1: a man's drink, because if you think about say, the
24:47
Speaker 1: Starbucks men, you, if you put them on some sort
24:52
Speaker 1: of uh, gender normative spectrum, on the super masculine end,
24:58
Speaker 1: you're going to have a USO and on the super
25:02
Speaker 1: feminine you're going to have your no fat, skinny, extra
25:07
Speaker 1: whip frappuccino double caramel twist. But I don't know, with
25:12
Speaker 1: skittles in it or something. Skittles. Yeah, I love my
25:14
Speaker 1: Skittles frappuccina. Um, yeah, it's it's it's funny and strange.
25:19
Speaker 1: And yet unfortunately it makes sense that we seem to
25:22
Speaker 1: align these these drinks with gender well because it probably
25:27
Speaker 1: I mean, we might think of espresso or black coffee
25:29
Speaker 1: or strong coffee as being this more manly drink because
25:33
Speaker 1: it still goes back to when it was becoming popular
25:38
Speaker 1: in England in the sixteen hundreds, when it was like, oh,
25:42
Speaker 1: this is an acquired chase. It's the thing that you
25:44
Speaker 1: have to It's like Scotch, you know, or oh, well,
25:46
Speaker 1: you have to have a certain kind of strong palate
25:48
Speaker 1: to be able to stay on this right and well,
25:51
Speaker 1: Julie writes in her book Food, Culture and Society from
25:54
Speaker 1: two thousand seven, talks about how you know, you do
25:57
Speaker 1: have like we said, you do have coffee making coming
26:00
Speaker 1: into the home where it does enter the wife's fear
26:04
Speaker 1: to to make it. But espresso never really made that leap.
26:07
Speaker 1: I mean, think about how expensive an espresso maker is
26:10
Speaker 1: to get into your home. Um, it's largely still like
26:14
Speaker 1: a specialty drink that you have to go to a
26:16
Speaker 1: coffee shop for. And so in that regard, she says,
26:19
Speaker 1: it kind of held onto its masculine roots. Yeah, but
26:23
Speaker 1: she also notes how espresso beverages, and I would say
26:26
Speaker 1: just any coffee coffee beverages served with milk and sugar
26:32
Speaker 1: are feminine. So basically, the more milk, the more feminine.
26:36
Speaker 1: And that's creating a weird association between women and lactation
26:41
Speaker 1: in my head. Um, but she says that it's not
26:43
Speaker 1: uncommon to hear specialty baristas mocking people who drink, say
26:48
Speaker 1: a sixty ounce latte or a decaf mocha, as those
26:52
Speaker 1: drinks are implicitly understood to be girly or sissy. And
26:57
Speaker 1: there was even another study that we found um conducted
27:01
Speaker 1: by Aubrey Limburgh in two thousand thirteen, where it was
27:04
Speaker 1: sort of an observational thing. She worked at a coffee
27:06
Speaker 1: shop and she was just noting how men and women
27:09
Speaker 1: acted at when they were ordering coffee, and especially how
27:14
Speaker 1: like a single woman by herself versus with us, say
27:17
Speaker 1: a boyfriend or partner, would act. And she found that
27:21
Speaker 1: when men by themselves would come up and say, order
27:25
Speaker 1: a cappuccino or one of the girlier kinds of drinks,
27:28
Speaker 1: that they would be like, oh, well, they'd always kind
27:31
Speaker 1: of like get a little nervous to be like, oh,
27:33
Speaker 1: I'll offer some qualifier, like well, I would just I
27:35
Speaker 1: gotta I guess I have a sweet tooth today. Yeah.
27:38
Speaker 1: They would always have to preface it like, hey, I'm
27:40
Speaker 1: not I'm not a girly man. Yeah, I'm a man's man.
27:43
Speaker 1: I know I'm not supposed to drink this right, and
27:47
Speaker 1: then you know, yeah, she also pointed out trends that
27:49
Speaker 1: she noticed, like, uh, women were a lot more indecisive
27:54
Speaker 1: if they asked for for suggestions from the staff they
27:56
Speaker 1: would meet, the girl would immediately take the suggestion, whereas
27:59
Speaker 1: men or guys would you know, walk up and know
28:02
Speaker 1: exactly what they wanted. You know. So it brings us
28:05
Speaker 1: up to today though, and we still need to talk
28:07
Speaker 1: about this issue of gender within specialty coffee because speaking
28:11
Speaker 1: of baristas, let's hop behind the counter and see what
28:16
Speaker 1: Lisa nicely and that bitch article is really getting at
28:20
Speaker 1: with her claim that there is a as she puts it,
28:24
Speaker 1: flow roasted sexism of specialty coffee. So let's talk about
28:28
Speaker 1: that when we come right back from a quick break
28:31
Speaker 1: and now back to the podcast. So we've talked a
28:35
Speaker 1: lot about the gendering of coffee drinking, but what about
28:38
Speaker 1: the gendering of coffee making and serving. This is specifically
28:43
Speaker 1: a focus on barista's or bro rista culture. Yeah, and
28:48
Speaker 1: I have a feeling that anyone working in a coffeehouse
28:51
Speaker 1: listening to this just cringe the at bro rista. But
28:56
Speaker 1: when you look into barista competitions, because yes, those are
29:00
Speaker 1: big things. There are things called Thursday night throwdowns that
29:03
Speaker 1: happen at a lot of either like specialty coffee UM companies,
29:08
Speaker 1: Like they'll open up their kitchens that for different barres
29:11
Speaker 1: is to come in and like practice their skills, or
29:14
Speaker 1: they might happen at different higher end coffee houses. Um.
29:17
Speaker 1: But when it gets into the competitive aspect of specialty coffee,
29:23
Speaker 1: because yeah, that's now a thing. Especially coffee is so
29:26
Speaker 1: big that there are now World Barista Championships. Actually there's
29:31
Speaker 1: only one World Breefa Championship, but these different competitions exist.
29:35
Speaker 1: And one thing Lisa nicely it Bitch points out is that,
29:39
Speaker 1: well it's usually just guys competing. Yeah, And the debate
29:44
Speaker 1: over that fact alone is pretty interesting because while there
29:48
Speaker 1: are a lot of people saying, you know, this is terrible,
29:50
Speaker 1: they're being very exclusionary, they're not letting women in, or
29:53
Speaker 1: they're not encouraging women, or they're even discouraging women from participating,
29:57
Speaker 1: there are others on the flip side who were saying, know,
30:00
Speaker 1: a lot of us don't even care. There's just as
30:02
Speaker 1: many men as women who don't give a hoot about
30:05
Speaker 1: these competitions. It's really about making good coffee and and
30:09
Speaker 1: we don't care. So what. Yeah, and speaking of so what,
30:12
Speaker 1: people listening who are not immersed in coffee culture might
30:15
Speaker 1: be thinking, well, who cares about Barisa competitions period? I mean,
30:19
Speaker 1: those are the kinds of accolades that will get you
30:21
Speaker 1: good jobs in this industry, so that it absolutely does
30:25
Speaker 1: make a difference. Um. But for instance, with the World
30:29
Speaker 1: Barista Championship, since the year two thousand, the year two thousand,
30:35
Speaker 1: all the winners have been guys. However, if you look
30:40
Speaker 1: at the US Barisa Championship, it has had four female winners.
30:44
Speaker 1: In fact, one woman, Heather Perry, one twice in a
30:48
Speaker 1: row I think, and she came in second in two
30:50
Speaker 1: thousand seven at the World Barista Championships. So they're definitely
30:54
Speaker 1: women who are slinging coffees at these really intense competitions.
30:59
Speaker 1: I've part of one and yeah wow. And when a
31:03
Speaker 1: lot of these conversations come up, there are some barista's
31:07
Speaker 1: out there who are saying, you know what, can we
31:09
Speaker 1: just let sleeping dogs lie? There was one woman who
31:11
Speaker 1: wrote a column in response to this, uh, this discussion,
31:15
Speaker 1: basically saying, I don't even want you to think about
31:17
Speaker 1: my gender for whatever reason. I want to be taken
31:20
Speaker 1: seriously as a barista, as someone who makes quality coffee.
31:24
Speaker 1: I don't want you to think of me differently, either
31:27
Speaker 1: because of or despite my gender. Yeah, I mean. And
31:30
Speaker 1: this also came up uh in a cover story for
31:35
Speaker 1: Barista magazine. Yes that exists. Uh. It was a cover
31:38
Speaker 1: story from two thousand twelve called Coffee Women of the
31:42
Speaker 1: Pacific Northwest. And I will say that the photo essay
31:46
Speaker 1: that went along with it did look like something out
31:47
Speaker 1: of Portland. It was lovely women in fields with coffee paraphernalia,
31:53
Speaker 1: draped in gorgeous blankets. Um, so it's kind of funny.
31:57
Speaker 1: But um one of them, Layla Gambari, said women have
32:02
Speaker 1: to be really good to get to that level, talking
32:04
Speaker 1: about the competition level, and she says, the truth is
32:07
Speaker 1: that not a lot of women are doing this, so
32:10
Speaker 1: that does need to be pointed out. But again, throughout
32:14
Speaker 1: their conversation too, it was clear that they didn't want
32:17
Speaker 1: to be seen these women who were being highlighted in
32:19
Speaker 1: the magazine as just a niche. They didn't want to
32:22
Speaker 1: be women in coffee. They're at the top of their
32:24
Speaker 1: game professionally there, you know, they wanted to just be
32:27
Speaker 1: seen as you know, an incredible coffee experts, right, yeah,
32:33
Speaker 1: I mean this, I this is stuff that I never
32:36
Speaker 1: would have thought of it would have thought about that
32:38
Speaker 1: that was even an issue looking back at the history
32:42
Speaker 1: of UM kind of sexism and and coffee is crazy.
32:47
Speaker 1: Well you, I mean, you hear anecdotally too from if
32:51
Speaker 1: you go into more of the lower rungs of coffee culture,
32:54
Speaker 1: away from the competition, you do hear from women who
32:58
Speaker 1: are working behind counters who have noticed that there is
33:03
Speaker 1: a difference. And I think it's more of a service
33:05
Speaker 1: industry thing where you you know, customers walk up and
33:09
Speaker 1: they see, uh, mail barista behind the counter, and they
33:12
Speaker 1: assume that he's more of a specialty guy who knows
33:17
Speaker 1: he's a barista in other words, whereas women are treated
33:20
Speaker 1: more as just just servers. They're just waitresses there. You know,
33:24
Speaker 1: it's kind of the feminization of of lower level service
33:27
Speaker 1: industry work, right, And a lot of people have written
33:30
Speaker 1: pieces about just that horrible interaction customer barista or customer
33:35
Speaker 1: server interaction UM where people do kind of make assumptions
33:39
Speaker 1: about women and men making the coffee and and basically
33:43
Speaker 1: treating women like, oh, you're so cute, you made a
33:45
Speaker 1: cup of coffee, good job, you know, or or just
33:49
Speaker 1: commenting on their looks, just being generally inappropriate toward women.
33:53
Speaker 1: I wonder if that this is totally tangential, and I
33:57
Speaker 1: have no academic citation for this, but I wonder if
34:00
Speaker 1: that wasn't kind of perpetuated by Rachel and friends, because
34:06
Speaker 1: you know, she works at the coffee shop, but she
34:08
Speaker 1: just sort of serves as like a pretty face and
34:10
Speaker 1: she never knows how to make the coffee. It's like
34:12
Speaker 1: that stereotype that like women in coffee shops are just
34:14
Speaker 1: Rachel's to be there. Interesting. I don't know, I didn't
34:18
Speaker 1: watch enough Fronts to even think about that, but you
34:20
Speaker 1: might have a point. An old roommate of mine had
34:21
Speaker 1: the entire box Setle episode and there was a period
34:25
Speaker 1: when we had no cable, So I'll just leave it
34:28
Speaker 1: at that. Well, but also what we haven't touched on,
34:30
Speaker 1: you know, moving away from moving outside the walls of
34:33
Speaker 1: the coffee shop to the actual fields, mountains, areas geographically
34:39
Speaker 1: where this coffee has grown and who is doing the growing,
34:41
Speaker 1: because well, we do have a discussion going on in
34:44
Speaker 1: this country about male versus female, man versus woman making
34:48
Speaker 1: the coffee. Who's getting more money the industry being professionalized, Um,
34:52
Speaker 1: you have even greater disparities when it comes to the
34:56
Speaker 1: farmers themselves. Yeah. I feel like almost the most it
35:00
Speaker 1: is important thing globally speaking to pay attention to in
35:03
Speaker 1: this conversation of gender and coffee is the issue of sourcing,
35:07
Speaker 1: really paying attention to where your coffee comes from. And
35:10
Speaker 1: this is also where paying attention to buying fair trade
35:15
Speaker 1: makes a big difference, because uh, this is over at
35:18
Speaker 1: the fair Trade blog. They mentioned that female ownership of
35:22
Speaker 1: coffee bushes is an entrenched taboo because in a lot
35:26
Speaker 1: of the countries where our coffee comes from, they live
35:29
Speaker 1: in more patriarchal societies where men are absolutely the heads
35:32
Speaker 1: of household and even though women and children might be
35:36
Speaker 1: doing a majority of the work in terms of planting
35:40
Speaker 1: and cultivating and harvesting the coffee beans or the coffee berries, um,
35:46
Speaker 1: they don't see any of the profits from it, right,
35:51
Speaker 1: and so the male head of household kind of has
35:53
Speaker 1: say over how that money is spent. Yeah. The Guardian
35:57
Speaker 1: in fact estimates that the women tend to do six
36:03
Speaker 1: of the productive work, and so there are lots of
36:06
Speaker 1: initiatives underway through fair trade organizations. UM. You also have
36:10
Speaker 1: the National Union of Coffee, Agribusiness and Farm Enterprises for instance,
36:15
Speaker 1: that are really starting to go into these communities and
36:18
Speaker 1: educate the men about the importance of sharing the wealth
36:24
Speaker 1: in a way and um kind of making it more
36:27
Speaker 1: of an equal gender equal process, but also empowering women
36:32
Speaker 1: with their own money and land and control over wealth
36:37
Speaker 1: because traditionally in developing countries, when women control the wealth
36:42
Speaker 1: and a household, it is spent more wisely. Absolutely, And
36:46
Speaker 1: there are groups that are forming too that want to
36:48
Speaker 1: buy specifically from female farmers, with some of the proceeds
36:53
Speaker 1: going to fund things like mobile cervical cancer screening buses
36:57
Speaker 1: things like that, or even purchasing new efficient stoves so
37:00
Speaker 1: smoke doesn't fill the home that improves general health, etcetera, etcetera. Yeah,
37:04
Speaker 1: I mean, and it's it's I'd never thought about this
37:07
Speaker 1: before at all. I mean, and it's again paying attention
37:10
Speaker 1: to where your food and drink comes from. UM. But
37:14
Speaker 1: there are suggestions too that when women grow the coffee
37:17
Speaker 1: and are given that control over it, the product is better.
37:20
Speaker 1: You have a greater harvest, I mean, because if they're
37:23
Speaker 1: in there already doing six of the work. They know
37:27
Speaker 1: how to grow that coffee. Um. So it's it's interesting
37:31
Speaker 1: to sort of take more of a global perspective of
37:34
Speaker 1: this conversation away from just what's going on at your
37:38
Speaker 1: local coffee haunt. Yeah, and I'm trying to think of
37:42
Speaker 1: of the of the coffee spots that I go to,
37:46
Speaker 1: what kind of gendered patterns I've noticed. I mean, there
37:49
Speaker 1: definitely is the drink divide where you are more likely
37:53
Speaker 1: to see women drinking there. I mean, I love a
37:55
Speaker 1: soy latte, I'm not gonna lie, um, but I also
37:58
Speaker 1: love a black coffee. Yeah. I mostly only ever drink
38:02
Speaker 1: just a black coffee. Rarely would I ever drink an
38:05
Speaker 1: espresso because but that's more. I like to savor it.
38:08
Speaker 1: I want to drink it longer. I don't want it
38:10
Speaker 1: to go away so fast. Yeah, I want to enjoy
38:13
Speaker 1: a hot beverage. Yeah. Yeah, I remember growing up it
38:16
Speaker 1: was always a joke and I never really thought about
38:19
Speaker 1: it in my household because my mom drinks exclusively black coffee,
38:24
Speaker 1: whereas my dad requires sugar and milk, And it was
38:28
Speaker 1: always kind of like if he ever accidentally drank her coffee,
38:31
Speaker 1: It's like oh, no, yours is so strong, and she'd
38:34
Speaker 1: be like, well, I guess even though I'm a lady,
38:37
Speaker 1: I like my coffee strong, and we would all laugh.
38:40
Speaker 1: And then my mom, who's a flight attendant, likes to
38:43
Speaker 1: tell jokes about when you're going down the aisle with
38:45
Speaker 1: your beverage cart, you know, saying coffee, tea or me.
38:49
Speaker 1: So my mind, yeah, like coffee service has been intertwined
38:52
Speaker 1: with well service. Yeah, and Caroline, we could keep talking
38:58
Speaker 1: about the stuff. I feel like we haven't even touched
39:00
Speaker 1: on everything, but um, for the sake of our listeners, ears,
39:04
Speaker 1: we're gonna wrap it up now, and we want to
39:06
Speaker 1: hear from any Barris is listening to this ring a
39:10
Speaker 1: bell at all? I will say that when I mentioned
39:14
Speaker 1: to my brother in law who works for a specialty
39:17
Speaker 1: coffee company that I'm not going to name just in
39:19
Speaker 1: case he'll be weird for him. Um, but they do
39:22
Speaker 1: make delicious coffee. Uh. When when I told him that
39:24
Speaker 1: we were doing a podcast on gender and sexism and
39:28
Speaker 1: specialty coffee, he knew what I was talking about. So
39:34
Speaker 1: I want to hear from you all. What do you think? Mom? Stuff?
39:36
Speaker 1: Discovery dot com is where you can send us your letters,
39:38
Speaker 1: and you can also tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast
39:41
Speaker 1: or send us a message on Facebook. And we got
39:45
Speaker 1: a couple of messages to share with you right now
39:48
Speaker 1: about our episode on can Birth Control Kill You? So
39:55
Speaker 1: I've got one here from Jen and she writes hi
39:59
Speaker 1: late these thank you all caps so much for your
40:03
Speaker 1: big picture look at the recent Vanity Fair article can
40:05
Speaker 1: Birth Control Kill You? I'm an O. B G. I
40:08
Speaker 1: in position at the Kaiser Permanente in northern California where
40:11
Speaker 1: the lead study you quoted was conducted, and have had
40:13
Speaker 1: to feel so many questions from patients in response to
40:16
Speaker 1: this recent very one sided article. I always counsel patients
40:21
Speaker 1: requesting birth control on the risks and benefits, including vt E,
40:25
Speaker 1: as is my responsibility as a physician. That being said,
40:28
Speaker 1: I also make sure to tell them that their risk
40:30
Speaker 1: of blood clots is dramatically higher with pregnancy, which is
40:33
Speaker 1: the main reason women start birth control to begin with.
40:35
Speaker 1: You mentioned this briefly at the end of the podcast,
40:37
Speaker 1: but to put things in perspective, while two out of
40:40
Speaker 1: ten thousand women on no birth control and seven out
40:43
Speaker 1: of ten thousand women on the neuver ring will develop
40:46
Speaker 1: blood clot one in five hundred to two thousand women
40:49
Speaker 1: who are pregnant will develop blood clots. All in all,
40:53
Speaker 1: it is much safer to be on the Neuver Ring
40:55
Speaker 1: than it is to be pregnant, especially in that cohort
40:58
Speaker 1: of women with higher risk actors. I love listening to
41:01
Speaker 1: your podcast and love that you have given so much
41:03
Speaker 1: even sided attention to important topics such as this. So
41:07
Speaker 1: thanks Jen, Well Kristen. I hope the letter you just
41:10
Speaker 1: read makes our next listener who wrote in feel a
41:13
Speaker 1: little bit better. This is a letter from Lacey, who
41:17
Speaker 1: says I'm currently using the Neuva Ring. I've been on
41:19
Speaker 1: it for several years now, and it's the only birth
41:21
Speaker 1: control that I've ever liked. And I've tried Deborah Privera
41:25
Speaker 1: and the patch, which was awful and oral birth control.
41:29
Speaker 1: Your episode made me nervous, but I did want to
41:31
Speaker 1: say with regards to asking the doctor about birth control,
41:34
Speaker 1: my guy know has always told me that Neuva Ring
41:36
Speaker 1: is the safest form of birth control because it's the
41:38
Speaker 1: lowest dose of estrogen, which always made me feel so good.
41:41
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I love this birth control and it's good
41:43
Speaker 1: for me. Great. So it's alarming to hear the opposite,
41:46
Speaker 1: but thank you for the podcast. This type of information
41:48
Speaker 1: is so important, so thank you for writing in, Lacy,
41:51
Speaker 1: and again, I hope you your mind is put a
41:53
Speaker 1: little bit at ease from the doctor who wrote in
41:56
Speaker 1: that Kristen. Kristen read her letter. Um again, every everybody
42:00
Speaker 1: out there, just make sure you educate yourself and talk
42:03
Speaker 1: to your doctor exactly and educate us. Let us know
42:06
Speaker 1: your thoughts. Mom. Stuff at discovery dot com is where
42:09
Speaker 1: you can send us your letters and if you want
42:11
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