Latest / Chip Ingram Sermon Podcast / Let's Talk about the Hard Stuff

Transcript

Let's Talk about the Hard Stuff · Chip Ingram Sermon Podcast

0:11
Today on Living on the Edge with Chip Ingram.
0:14
Is it possible to talk about politics, social
0:17
justice, and Black Lives Matter without launching
0:20
an argument? Is there a way to remove the barriers
0:23
that are dividing you and those you love? Your
0:26
kids, your grandkids, a close friend? The answer
0:30
is absolutely yes. And you'll learn how today.
0:33
Stay with me. Today on Living on the Edge, Chip
0:37
Ingram invites you to hear from guest teacher
0:39
Aaron Pierce, tackling one of the touchiest topics
0:43
there is, how to talk about politics without
0:46
losing the relationship. Aaron's ministry, Steiger
0:49
International, has spent decades planting itself
0:52
in secular spaces most Christians avoid, learning
0:55
how to build real relationships in tough places.
0:58
Today, he shares a powerful personal story from
1:01
the streets of Minneapolis and shows us how even
1:04
our most divisive topics, like politics, can
1:07
become doorways to the gospel if we're willing
1:10
to lead with love instead of an argument. Now,
1:13
here's Aaron with today's message titled, Let's
1:16
Talk About the Hard Stuff. I want to start by
1:19
just telling a story. You know, we were in the
1:21
center of the political universe when George
1:24
Floyd was killed. And man, it was crazy times.
1:27
And I remember taking a small group of people
1:30
from the Steiger Minneapolis team the Saturday
1:32
after it happened and going down to see what
1:35
was happening with the huge protests and just
1:38
standing there with a group of people. And buildings
1:41
were still on fire from the night before. And
1:44
just the intensity of the situation and seeing
1:47
thousands and thousands of young people. mainly
1:51
young people, all around just angry and searching
1:55
and crying out for justice. And it was so interesting
2:00
because there was just this deep sense of anger,
2:02
but also a sense of hollow solution. Like the
2:06
solutions just rang so hollow. And it was really
2:09
clear to me just looking around and seeing all
2:12
these people that were fighting for something,
2:14
that they were looking for a human answer to
2:18
a sin problem. And it was really an interesting
2:21
thing. And the dynamic was really strange, actually,
2:23
because I remember being here, thousands and
2:25
thousands of people, but there was really no
2:27
sense of leadership. It was a weird dynamic.
2:30
People were like looking, you know, it was a
2:33
crowd that was ready to be led. And so I was
2:36
just thinking about that. And we just were there
2:38
to really just observe and pray. And then we
2:41
came back a couple of days later. And this time
2:44
we went actually right to where the spot where
2:47
George Floyd was killed. And when we got there,
2:49
there was a big box truck and some speakers set
2:53
up. And there were some people with a microphone
2:55
talking. And there was a huge crowd all around
2:59
them. And so our group came and we kind of got
3:02
to the edge of the group with a number of people,
3:04
including Serena. who was part of our team, an
3:07
African -American woman who was very bold. And
3:10
I remember sitting there looking at it and remembering
3:13
the moment in the crowd before and how the crowd
3:17
was actually very much ready to be led. And so
3:20
I said to Serena, because it made a whole lot
3:22
more sense for her to do it, I said, hey, go
3:25
up there and ask for the microphone. And so she
3:28
did. She walked up and she asked them and no
3:32
one was going to say no to her. And so they gave
3:34
her the microphone. And first she sang a song,
3:36
which is really cool, drew people in. And then
3:39
she just began to preach the gospel. And she
3:41
began to share how the ultimate solution to the
3:47
brokenness of the world is Jesus. And it was
3:50
very clear, very bold, and people were glued.
3:56
to what she had to say. And she invited people
3:59
to pray to receive Jesus. And people raised their
4:01
hands, prayed out loud, right on the spot there.
4:04
And then we had hours and hours of conversation
4:06
right there at that spot. And then that whole
4:09
summer, our team went out back to that spot.
4:12
And I have never experienced a time when people
4:15
were more open to spiritual conversations and
4:18
talking about Jesus ever than in that season.
4:22
And there was that real season of hunger and
4:25
openness that summer in that moment. And it was
4:28
a really cool and powerful experience. And I
4:30
think what it speaks to is that while these issues,
4:35
these topics of politics and sexuality are very
4:38
divisive and they're very kind of intimidating
4:41
topics, they're also incredible opportunities
4:44
for the gospel. They're moments in which we can
4:47
connect. And actually, rather than seeing them
4:51
as things to avoid or putting them in that box
4:55
of politics, they're actually opportunities to
4:57
connect on a deeper spiritual level with people.
5:01
And so part of it is reframing in our own minds.
5:04
These things are not scary topics, but these
5:07
are actually opportunities if we approach it
5:09
in a different way. And so that's part of what
5:13
I want to talk about is how do we approach this
5:15
in a better way? Starting with the idea of politics.
5:18
So politics has ruined more than a few Thanksgiving
5:21
gatherings. That's like the thing that you hear
5:24
today, right? Like a lot of times there's a tension
5:26
often between the dad and one child on some political
5:31
issue. And we have this hyper -polarized world.
5:35
But I think that the part of it is that there's
5:37
an opportunity here that we can reframe this.
5:41
And that's what I want to talk about specifically
5:42
through the political lens. Now, one thing I
5:44
want to make very clear as we talk about this.
5:47
is that this is in the context of how to develop
5:51
relationships and engage in spiritual conversations
5:53
with secular people. So we're not making political
5:57
statements or saying how Christians should or
6:00
should not engage in the political process. That's
6:02
not what this is about. So remember the context
6:05
of this. So the first thing we have to understand
6:08
is the concept of fear in the political savior.
6:10
And this is an issue that we have as Christians
6:13
in the church. So much of the Christian response
6:17
to the decline of Christian influence and the
6:21
moral decay of society has been characterized
6:25
by fear. All right. So there are new books published
6:30
every year. foretelling the inevitable downfall
6:34
and collapse of American society because we've
6:37
forgotten our Christian roots. The internet is
6:40
filled with podcasts and blog articles decrying
6:43
the evil forces at work to undermine Christian
6:46
values and marginalize Christian voices. And
6:49
then as the hostility grows, we have these projections
6:52
and these images of... Pastors being arrested
6:55
because they're preaching the Bible and Christians
6:58
being fired because they won't bow down to the
7:01
ideology of the day. And all of these things,
7:04
there's, believe me, there's some truth to some
7:06
of that, right? There's truth to that. But the
7:09
challenge is, is that it's created a culture
7:12
of fear and anger. That's the culture that we've
7:17
created. And so what happens is, is when we have
7:20
a culture of fear, We see secular people as the
7:24
enemy. And then we adopt a zero -sum game of
7:29
winning and losing, right? That becomes the mentality.
7:33
So in a game of winners and losers, the end goal,
7:36
the end goal of defending Christian values, of
7:39
saving our country from the enemy, justifies
7:43
the means of achieving that goal, right? Even
7:48
if those means are completely anti -Christian,
7:52
in attitude and approach. It justifies it because
7:55
the consequences are so severe, right? And so
7:59
that is the mentality. And so this fear has led
8:02
many Christians to look to a political savior,
8:06
to a political power, which is ironic, right?
8:09
Because that's what the Jews wanted when Jesus
8:11
came, right? And so it's the very antithesis
8:14
of what Jesus did while he was on earth. And
8:17
so The big paradigm here is that followers of
8:21
Jesus, of all people, should not be known for
8:24
fear, but for hope, right? We should be known
8:27
for hope. And we have a hope that is unshakable
8:31
by circumstances exactly because we do not put
8:37
our hope in earthly things. That's why we have
8:40
an unshakable hope because it's not put in a
8:43
political party or a politician or even in our
8:48
religious freedom that our country provides.
8:50
That is not where our hope is. Our hope is in
8:53
Jesus and only Jesus. So if our country collapses
8:58
and Christians are persecuted like first century
9:02
Christians in Rome, by the way, I hope that does
9:04
not happen. But if that does happen, we still
9:08
have hope because we know that we are but sojourners
9:13
and exiles, as it says in 1 Peter 2 .11, and
9:16
that our citizenship is in heaven, as it says
9:18
in Philippians 3 .20. We still have hope if everything
9:22
collapses around us. And that is why our engagement
9:26
in the political process, but also in engaging
9:29
non -religious people should be hope -driven.
9:33
not fear -driven. That's a big, big paradigm
9:37
shift in how we approach this because that shapes
9:41
the way we engage. That shapes the way we see
9:45
everything. It's hope -driven, not fear -driven.
9:48
And so that impacts the way that we see them.
9:53
Them is a big issue today in our culture, right?
9:56
Because we live in this hyper -polarized era,
9:59
unlike any time in history, and it's us versus
10:02
them. Even if them is an exaggerated caricature
10:05
that bears little resemblance to the kind of
10:08
the complex, nuanced reality of who we are, right?
10:11
And we like to put these cartoon characters of
10:13
the other side that we can easily dismiss. And
10:16
so it's easy to hate people that are on their
10:19
other side because they are no longer image bearers,
10:22
they are the enemy, right? And so a while back,
10:26
I became friends with a pastor that I really
10:28
respected on Facebook. And I really appreciated
10:31
a lot of his teaching. But what I didn't realize
10:34
until we became friends on Facebook is how politically
10:36
outspoken he was. And there's not necessarily
10:39
anything wrong with that. That's not what I'm
10:41
saying. But it was his approach and tone that
10:45
really surprised me. You know, and we became
10:48
abundantly clear. from looking at his posts and
10:52
the way that he talked about them, that he didn't
10:55
have any liberal friends, right? That he didn't
10:58
have any friends that saw the world different
11:01
because of the way he talked. I mean, if he did
11:04
at one point, they've unfriended him a long time
11:07
ago, right? So here he was shouting eloquently
11:10
into his social media echo chamber. filled with
11:14
like -minded followers, having zero influence
11:17
on anyone that didn't already agree with him.
11:21
All while fostering a culture of fear and hostility
11:25
towards them. And so here's the thing. What do
11:30
you think about or how do you talk about them?
11:33
Specifically those that are politically opposed
11:35
to you. Do you envision real people with hopes
11:41
and fears? Just like you, do you see them as
11:43
people that Jesus loved so much that he died
11:45
on the cross for them? Or do you envision nefarious
11:48
people with malicious intentions out to get you?
11:51
Like, what do you envision when you consider
11:53
them? And I don't mean to be naive, but approaching
11:58
the world through a lens of conspiracy theory
12:01
or malicious intentions doesn't help you foster
12:04
a love for people. And so we need to remember
12:07
who the real enemy is. Right? We are in a war.
12:13
We are in war, but it's not against people. It's
12:16
against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly
12:18
realms, as it says in Ephesians 6 .12. And it's
12:21
a war for the souls of a generation who have
12:24
been deceived. And so I prefer to approach people
12:27
using this thing called Hanlon's razor. And Hanlon's
12:31
razor says, never attribute malice to that which
12:35
can be adequately explained by ignorance or deception.
12:39
And so maybe, Maybe you'll be duped every once
12:42
in a while, but at least you'll continue to foster
12:45
a love for people and see the best in people.
12:48
So let me illustrate this with a well -known
12:50
verse. You've probably seen this verse before.
12:52
It says, when I saw the crowds, I was angry and
12:54
defensive with them because they were malicious
12:57
and plotting to hurt me. Right? You've heard
12:59
this verse, right? No, it's, this is, this is,
13:03
this is what it really was. When he, Jesus saw
13:06
the crowds, he had compassion on them. because
13:11
they were confused and helpless like sheep without
13:14
a shepherd. That should be our approach to people,
13:17
right? Rather than these malicious, nefarious
13:20
people that are out to get us and this fear and
13:23
hostility and fists up, we should see them as
13:26
people that are confused and helpless and like
13:29
Jesus have compassion on them. That should be
13:33
our approach. And so the thing to remember is
13:36
that often people's motivation, politically or
13:39
otherwise, is technically good when you consider
13:43
their underlying assumptions, right? They're
13:46
operating on an assumption and on a worldview
13:48
where to them, they believe they are doing right,
13:50
right? And so the challenge is not what they're
13:53
doing, it's the worldview that they're operating
13:56
under. So to give you an example, during the
13:58
whole George Floyd thing, one of the days that
14:01
I was there, I met a group of people and there
14:04
was one woman, young woman, and she described
14:06
herself as a revolutionary Marxist. And I remember
14:10
talking to her and thinking, wow, this woman
14:15
personifies the very definition of the enemy.
14:19
For many of my conservative Christian friends,
14:22
like this is the enemy personified. And it was
14:26
interesting because there was actually a lot
14:29
to admire about her, right? Because she was passionate
14:32
about the brokenness of the world. So she wanted
14:37
to do something about it. Now her framework.
14:40
that she was operating on was different than
14:42
mine. Like the main framework for her is that
14:45
she believed ultimately humans were good and
14:48
that if we could just get the right law and the
14:50
right political system and the right education,
14:53
we could solve our problems, right? Now, I challenged
14:56
her on that because I said, you know, it doesn't
14:58
matter. What happens is generally when you change
15:02
a political system, evil and oppression still
15:04
exist. And of course, we're talking about sin
15:07
and the heart. But the point is, I can actually
15:11
see this person in a loving, compassionate way,
15:14
rather than like the definition of the enemy
15:17
that's trying to get me, right? So that's the
15:20
first thing. It's our approach to other people.
15:24
What is our approach? Or how do we feel and look
15:26
about them? The second thing is that we can't
15:31
make secondary things primary. Don't make secondary
15:34
things primary. And it sounds obvious, but our
15:37
goal is to win people to Jesus, not our political
15:40
perspective. And they're not the same thing.
15:44
And often it seems that Christians are more passionate
15:46
about their political affiliation than Jesus.
15:49
Like the things that they're most getting passionate
15:52
and worked up about on social media is their
15:54
political stuff. And there's some of those issues
15:57
to me that are so secondary and so like good
16:01
Christians can have different views on it, but
16:03
we're so passionate about it. We often get stuck
16:06
in these downstream battles and secondary issues
16:09
rather than introducing people to Jesus. And
16:13
in terms of societal influence, the law is actually
16:17
very limited, almost useless in shaping worldview
16:22
or changing someone's heart. And so we need to
16:26
not confuse political power with societal influence.
16:32
And frankly, we're kind of there right now. We've
16:35
actually, some of the right -leaning morality,
16:37
we've kind of won in some ways politically, but
16:40
I don't think we've had a lot of societal influence
16:42
in other ways. So we have to make sure, again,
16:46
we separate that. And let me be clear again,
16:48
this is not about how Christians should engage
16:50
the political process. This is about how do we
16:52
reach secular people. So we need to remember
16:55
that so that as we engage with people who have
16:59
different political perspectives, We need to
17:01
make sure we're doing our best to get out of
17:03
the political box, like we talked, and avoid
17:06
debating secondary or symptomatic issues. And
17:10
instead, our goal is to point them to Jesus,
17:13
right? Now, again, I'm going to say it one more
17:15
time. We're not advocating political apathy or
17:19
abstaining from the political process. But as
17:21
Christians, we should seek to engage and influence
17:24
every sphere of society, but not from a place
17:27
of fear and not as our ultimate source of hope.
17:31
Right. If politics is not our ultimate source
17:33
of hope, then we're not going to like adopt that
17:36
win at all cost mentality because that's not
17:38
our ultimate hope. So that is my key point. So
17:41
next thing about politics, we live in an activist
17:45
culture. And I think this is awesome because
17:49
this activism really operates on a framework
17:52
that connects to the gospel in a powerful way.
17:56
We talked a lot before about filtered reality
17:59
and how we kind of project ourselves. And one
18:02
of the projections is that we're activists, that
18:04
we're making a difference. Often it's pretty
18:06
superficial and amounts to nothing more than
18:10
like a social media post and wearing a bracelet.
18:12
But nonetheless, there is a desire to fight for
18:18
something, to be part of something bigger than
18:22
myself. to care for the oppressed and the marginalized,
18:26
right? To meet the needs of the voiceless, like
18:30
to stand for what is right. All of these things
18:34
are good biblical things, right? In fact, the
18:38
reason this is in them is because they were created
18:42
for good works in advance. Whether they know
18:45
Jesus or not. And God has put that in them. A
18:48
more fair way to live out a secular humanistic
18:53
worldview is just to live for yourself. It's
18:56
just to get what you can. It's about pursuing
19:00
pleasure and happiness. But an activist culture
19:03
is about laying your needs down for the sake
19:06
of others. So it's a really interesting thing.
19:08
And so even though a lot of the things that people
19:11
get into, like environmentalism, racism, Black
19:15
Lives Matter, LGBTQ, sexuality, feminism, mental
19:19
health, suicide prevention, and economic justice.
19:22
These are the hot topics. These are the things
19:24
that culture cares about. Even though a lot of
19:27
these things either are outright anti -biblical
19:30
or get twisted, right? It says something about
19:35
people. What it says most importantly is that
19:39
they believe the world is not as it ought to
19:41
be. And that is that, remember when he talked
19:44
about spiritual conversations, finding a truth
19:47
that they believe and affirming that? Those that
19:51
are politically active, that is a key truth that
19:54
we can hold, that we can affirm in them. And
19:58
then the question is, okay, how do we solve it?
20:00
How do we solve these problems that we're dealing
20:02
with? Is it really a political thing or is it
20:05
something bigger and deeper than that? And so
20:09
my challenge to you is we have, these things
20:11
have often evoked a lot of angry political them
20:17
reactions. And my, my challenge to you is see
20:21
them as opportunities to connect and to affirm
20:25
and then have a conversation seeking the truth
20:29
together. Like how do we take care of this planet?
20:33
Like, how do we see racial equality? How do we
20:36
treat, where does love come from? How do we create,
20:40
how do we treat people who are different with
20:41
dignity and love and respect, right? How do we,
20:44
how should women be treated? Can we acknowledge
20:47
the fact throughout history that there's been
20:49
a ton of marginalization and can we, what do
20:51
we do about that? And of course, Jesus was so
20:54
radical in the way he treated women, right? And
20:56
so see these as opportunities, not as political
20:59
conversations. All right. So I'll give you an
21:03
example of this. This was last year. I ended
21:06
up meeting a couple of these guys. They're tough
21:09
-looking, tattooed people. And I saw them, and
21:12
I thought, oh, they kind of look interesting.
21:14
So I went up to them, and I said, like, hey,
21:16
how are you doing? And then I said, what do your
21:20
tattoos mean? Because tattoos are personal, and
21:23
they're easy things to connect on. And so I said,
21:25
yeah, what do your tattoos mean? And he looked
21:27
at me, the guy in the back there, and he said,
21:30
well, which one? And I said, that one. And I
21:33
pointed to one with a circle with three downward
21:36
-facing arrows. And I found out later that that
21:39
actually was a symbol representing Antifa, which
21:42
is a left -wing political movement with some
21:44
extreme and sometimes violent elements to it.
21:47
But he said, well, it means anti -fascist, anti
21:50
-capitalist, anti -authoritarian. And I was like,
21:53
ooh, okay. And so I asked him, like, what does
21:57
that mean to you? Why do you believe that? And
21:59
he talked about, like, kind of the corruption
22:01
of the system and how you've got all these billionaires
22:04
in their yachts while the poor are struggling
22:07
and how that's unjust and all this kind of corruption
22:11
and political stuff. And then he began talking
22:13
passionately about implementing his kind of socialistic,
22:17
almost communist system in order to bring about
22:20
equality. At that point, a well -meaning Christian
22:26
man that was there doing outreach with us began
22:29
to have an argument with him about capitalism
22:33
versus socialism. And hopefully we realize by
22:37
now, that wasn't the moment for that. Frankly,
22:43
he completely missed the point. of that moment,
22:47
and that this was not the time to argue about
22:50
capitalism and socialism, blah, blah, blah. This
22:52
was a moment where we could connect. And so I
22:56
kindly but firmly took over the conversation,
22:59
and I followed basically a process, a process
23:03
of, first of all, affirming in him some good
23:07
things that I saw. So I said, man, I respect
23:10
you. because you see the brokenness of this world.
23:14
You see suffering and you're not willing to just
23:17
stand aside. You want to do something about it.
23:19
I respect that because I agree with you that
23:23
the world is broken as well. And I'm an activist
23:26
too. I'm a Jesus activist. So I'm connecting
23:29
on his playing field, right? But then I reframe
23:33
it. And I said, but the problem is that no matter
23:36
what economic or political system we seem to
23:38
put in place, we can't get rid of the corruption.
23:41
We can't get rid of the evil and the suffering.
23:43
And that's because I believe the core problem
23:45
is a corruption of the heart. I was using his
23:48
language and that there's no political system
23:51
that can solve that. And then I challenged him
23:55
and I told him that as a follower of Jesus, I
23:56
believe that we can't fix ourselves. And that
23:59
the only solution was a spiritual renewal and
24:02
restoration found through the death and resurrection
24:04
of Jesus. And then we end up having this really
24:07
deep, long conversation. And eventually he ended
24:11
up opening up and he said, well, you know, yesterday
24:13
I was at a funeral and the pastor came up to
24:16
talk to me and he was talking to me about this
24:17
stuff too. And I said, well, man, I think God
24:20
is pursuing you. And he said, yeah, I think you're
24:22
right. And it was a pretty amazing conversation
24:25
with an Antifa guy that wants, you know, that
24:29
for most people is like the enemy that we should
24:32
stand against, right? So how are we going to
24:35
engage the political process in a different way?
24:38
That's our challenge, all right? Okay, so now
24:43
that we've, you know, dealt with politics, let's
24:47
go to the next easy topic, which is sexuality.
24:54
sexuality is undoubtedly the issue that draws
24:56
the most hostility from secular culture, right?
24:59
Towards the church. And if you're going to be
25:01
actively engaging in secular culture, the topic
25:04
of LGBTQ plus is unavoidable. Like it just comes
25:09
up and societal attitudes have changed rapidly
25:12
in the last few decades, right? Those that identify,
25:15
we talked about this, those that identify as
25:17
LGBTQ has grown exponentially with each generation.
25:22
And so it's a crazy thing. And in today's culture,
25:25
there's very little room for rational conversation
25:27
that challenges the mainstream narrative. It's
25:30
tough, right? Because discussions about LGBTQ
25:33
rights are emotionally charged. And they're drawing
25:36
on themes of justice and equality connected to
25:40
the civil rights movements of the 50s and 60s.
25:42
That's what makes it so hard. Right? Because
25:44
you don't want to be on the wrong side of history.
25:45
And anything less than total affirmation of all
25:48
things LGBTQ is quickly labeled as homophobic
25:51
and bigoted. And it's a big challenge. Secular
25:54
workplaces celebrate Pride Month with no regard
25:58
for anyone that might not agree with it. Like,
26:00
it's a really tough context. And the allies,
26:03
frankly, are the most vicious in their defense.
26:07
So this is a really challenging time for Christians
26:11
who hold to a traditional biblical sexual ethic.
26:14
It's hard. And the thought of engaging these
26:16
conversations can be terrifying and paralyzing.
26:19
And so the challenge is, and what I want to begin
26:22
to unpack, is how should a faithful follower
26:24
of Jesus live in a Pride Month world? How do
26:27
we do that? And so let's talk a little bit about
26:30
some key assumptions. The first step in engaging
26:32
this topic is to recognize that beneath the mask
26:36
of intense moral conviction, there is actually
26:41
deep confusion and brokenness. At the core of
26:45
the confusion today is the circular statement,
26:47
love is love. Now, this statement, as you know,
26:50
is a banner for LGBTQ rights, and it implies
26:53
that people should be free to love whoever they
26:55
want, however they want. But the question, of
26:57
course, is what is love? And pop culture messages
27:01
and love are so confused and conflicted. I mean,
27:04
love is sex. Love is lust. Love is a feeling.
27:07
Love is whatever I want it to be. And the reality
27:10
is that we're just confused. And we are desperate
27:14
for belonging and acceptance. That's the core
27:18
truth that you can hold on to, is that people
27:20
are desiring belonging and acceptance, but they
27:23
have no idea where to find it. Even within the
27:26
LGBTQ movement itself, there's so much confusion,
27:29
division, and incoherence. I mean, The L, the
27:33
lesbians and old school feminists are fighting
27:35
with the transgender movement. I mean, because
27:37
what are women's right if there's no such thing
27:39
as a woman, right? And mental health care is
27:41
in disarray because no longer are we seeking
27:43
to align people's mental state to their physical
27:46
realities or objective truth, but instead align
27:49
their bodies to their psychological feelings,
27:51
right? It's a crazy, confusing time. And as we
27:55
already discussed as it relates to politics,
27:57
Jesus' response to the confusion was compact.
28:01
That is always Jesus' response. When he saw the
28:05
crowds, he had compassion on them because they
28:08
were confused and helpless like sheep without
28:11
a shepherd. So like Jesus, as we engage this
28:15
topic, LGBTQ community and their allies, we need
28:21
to start from a place of radical love and mercy.
28:26
That's where we start. So part of... approaching
28:30
this with love is approaching it with empathy,
28:35
which means that we need to understand their
28:39
reality properly so that we can have a better
28:43
empathy. So while some of the explosive growth
28:46
in those that identify as LGBTQ is just kind
28:50
of just a trend, and oftentimes When people are
28:54
looking for a place to connect and belong and
28:56
be affirmed, they're going to identify this way.
28:58
And so there's some of that for sure going on.
29:01
But many people really do experience same -sex
29:05
attraction. And they do experience gender dysphoria
29:09
and other things that are confusing as it relates
29:13
to their sexuality. And over the years, debates
29:16
have raged about whether you're born gay or whether
29:19
it's a choice. And the truth is that the reasons
29:22
are complex and they're not the same for everyone.
29:25
And then we need to make a critical distinction
29:27
between temptation and sinful action. It's a
29:33
really clear thing because temptation is not
29:36
a sin, but the action in thought and deed in
29:40
response to the temptation is. And we know this
29:45
because Hebrews 4 .15 tells us that Jesus was
29:47
tempted in every way, just as we are, yet he
29:50
did not sin. He was tempted, but he did not sin.
29:54
And so the truth is that we are all sexually
29:57
broken. All of us. Each one of us, to some degree,
30:01
is the product of sin of others, our own sin,
30:05
and our fallen nature. And so that is why we
30:07
approach this whole topic with humility, empathy,
30:11
and compassion. Because we are all in that place
30:15
of brokenness. And it changes the approach and
30:20
the mentality that we have when we gauge people.
30:23
And then we can approach it with love and action.
30:26
We've talked about this in other contexts, but
30:28
one of the lies of our culture is that in order
30:30
to love someone, I must affirm their lifestyle
30:34
and behavior. And this is one of the biggest
30:36
challenges as it relates to sexuality. And as
30:40
we engage this topic, particularly if we're engaging
30:43
people that are hostile as it relates to this
30:46
topic, this is actually the first assumption
30:48
that we need to challenge. Like, we can't talk
30:51
about, is homosexuality a sin or God's original
30:54
design for the body? We need to talk about, can
30:56
I love you without agreeing with you? That's
31:00
actually the first thing that I need to talk
31:03
about. And so it's challenging, right? Because
31:06
sexuality in our culture has been tied to identity.
31:10
And so a rejection of my sexuality is a rejection
31:13
of my core identity, which makes this so incredibly
31:17
tough. So that is why the best way to challenge
31:20
this lie, the lie is to love someone I must affirm.
31:24
The best way to challenge that is not to argue
31:26
and debate, but actually to prove it by living.
31:29
out that love. That's the way you're going to
31:32
actually challenge that lie, is you're actually
31:35
going to love them even though you disagree with
31:38
them. And this doesn't have to just be people
31:41
that are LGBTQ. It can be someone that's politically
31:44
on the other side or anyone that might disagree
31:46
with you. How are you going to demonstrate that
31:48
you can love them in action while not agreeing
31:53
with their lifestyle? That's how you prove it,
31:55
by doing it. And so remember that people are
31:59
longing for deep relational connection. Like
32:02
that is an assumption you need to remember is
32:04
always true. And so if you can continue to be
32:07
a friend and develop authentic relationships
32:09
with people, you are able to show them Jesus
32:11
through your actions. And that is often where
32:14
it starts. And again, it can be really simple
32:18
things. You know, I remember we were doing an
32:22
outreach and a gay couple walked by and we had
32:26
some free water. We said, hey, you want some
32:27
water? And they're like, yeah. And they were
32:29
like, what are you guys doing here? Oh, we're
32:30
Christians. They're like, oh yeah, well, we're
32:32
not religious. And I was like, oh, okay, that's
32:34
fine. And we began to talk and it's like, well,
32:35
what's going on in your life? And is there anything
32:37
we could pray for you guys for? And one of the
32:40
guys' mom had cancer. And I was like, well, hey,
32:42
can we pray for her? And they're like, yeah,
32:45
sure. Can I put my hand on her shoulder? Sure.
32:47
And so I put my hand on her shoulder and just
32:49
prayed for healing and also just prayed for God's
32:52
love and just prayed for them. And the end of
32:55
it, one of the guys looked at me and said, man,
32:56
I'm not religious, but that was really cool.
32:59
And so it's the example of showing love, proving
33:05
that I can love you and not agree with you, proving
33:08
that. And that doesn't mean compromising our
33:10
theological beliefs at all. Again, remember that
33:13
being in a relationship and association with
33:15
someone is not synonymous with affirming their
33:17
lifestyle. It's about challenging that lie that
33:20
stands in the way of them meeting Jesus. That's
33:23
what we're doing. So I'll give you an example
33:25
of this. This is Josiah. So it's me and Serena.
33:29
And Josiah, we met him at a park and we started
33:31
to talk to him. And it turned out he's kind of
33:34
a pretty lonely guy. And we started to talk to
33:37
him about what's going on in his life. He told
33:41
us his life story, and he had grown up in a Catholic
33:43
church, really didn't mean all that much to him,
33:46
went to college, walked away from it all, and
33:47
ended up becoming gay. And he had just moved
33:52
to Minneapolis, but he was pretty disconnected,
33:55
and he had a boyfriend, but they had just broken
33:57
up, and he was feeling pretty lonely. And so
34:01
we just began to talk to him. And we were pretty
34:03
clear from the beginning that we were Christians,
34:05
but we just began to talk and develop a relationship
34:07
and ask him about other stuff in his life. Like
34:10
it's not always about sexuality. They have more
34:12
to him. And so he was an artist and he was showing
34:16
some of the art that he was creating and that
34:18
he was working on a business. And I was like,
34:21
man, that's cool. I was like, hey, I have a little
34:23
bit of business background. We should get together.
34:24
Maybe I can help you with your business plan.
34:26
And he was like, yeah, that'd be awesome. So
34:28
we exchanged contact information. And a few weeks
34:31
later, we met at a caribou. And we looked at
34:33
his business plan stuff. And we just talked about
34:36
how can you do this business well? What are some
34:39
things you need to be thinking about? And then
34:41
I began to challenge him. And I said, hey, a
34:44
couple of things that I think are really helpful
34:45
when you're thinking about a business is that
34:47
you've got to think about being in business is
34:51
hard. And you need to find something to hold
34:55
on to, an identity that can't be shaken. Because
34:58
you're going to come across storms, and you need
35:00
to look to something that's going to hold you
35:01
in the storm. And I said, for me, I find my identity
35:05
in the unconditional love of God. Because no
35:08
matter what I do, or no matter what happens to
35:13
me, I know that that unconditional love of God
35:16
will never go away. That's where I put my hope.
35:19
And I didn't tell him, okay, now you have to,
35:21
I said, now you've got to find your thing that
35:24
you're going to hold on to that circumstances
35:25
can't shake. And then I said a little later,
35:28
and I said, you know, the other thing is just
35:30
the goal of just making as much money as possible
35:33
isn't enough. Like that's not a good enough goal.
35:36
You need to find a purpose, a purpose that is
35:38
beyond just making money. You know, because I
35:43
said, because I believe that each of us were
35:45
put on this planet for a purpose. And that we
35:48
are called to find that purpose and live that
35:50
out. And what I was doing, and I'll talk about
35:53
that here in a second, is I was challenging the
35:55
narrative that there is no purpose, that there's
35:57
no purpose for our bodies, and that there's no
36:00
purpose of trying to align ourselves to a...
36:05
transcendent purpose, right? So again, I was
36:08
having a spiritual conversation, not a gospel
36:10
conversation. And I was having a friendship conversation
36:13
with the guy who had grown up at the church,
36:15
but had rejected it and is walking in a lifestyle
36:18
in which he believes Christians are his enemy,
36:21
right? So this is the kind of approach that we
36:25
have to take if we're going to engage people
36:27
in this community. Now, a couple other key things
36:32
to understand in terms of just When you're engaging
36:35
the topic, because there are some key assumptions.
36:37
The key spiritual kind of apologetic assumption
36:41
that you're challenging essentially is related
36:44
to purpose. Because the question is, is there
36:47
a transcendent universal purpose for sex, marriage,
36:52
and our bodies? That's the question. Or are marriage
36:55
and traditional sex ethics a social construct
36:58
that can and perhaps should be abolished for
37:01
the sake of personal happiness? Like that's the
37:04
question essentially that we're asking. Now in
37:07
the secular world, meaning and purpose is self
37:10
-defined. So there is no transcendent designer
37:13
that has imparted a particular way to live our
37:16
lives. You know, in this world, you sex, which
37:19
is now devoid of the consequence of procreation,
37:22
thanks to contraception and abortion, is a personal
37:26
source of pleasure and self -expression governed
37:29
only by the concept of mutual consent. Like that's
37:32
the only kind of thing that you've got to say
37:34
within. So sex in any form or context that does
37:39
no harm to others is viewed as the ultimate expression
37:43
of freedom. And it's kind of this like liberating,
37:48
unshackling of social constraints that have oppressed
37:50
our true identities. Like that's the worldview
37:53
that shapes the kind of sexual ethics that we
37:56
have today. And so you can't be your whole self,
38:00
there's a quote I heard in this conversation,
38:02
if you listen to the rules of others. It's kind
38:05
of the mindset that you hear. Now, of course,
38:08
sadly, the consequences of this sexual free -for
38:11
-all is a completely different story, right?
38:14
Loneliness, anxiety, depression are at epidemic
38:16
levels, especially amongst young adults. Sexual
38:19
violence has been linked to a copious amount
38:21
of time viewing increasingly hardcore pornography,
38:23
and sexual satisfaction is plummeting. So sexual
38:27
freedom has instead led to bondage and addiction.
38:30
Now in the Christian worldview, because here's
38:33
the paradigm, we don't want to talk about what
38:35
you can't do. We want to present a positive view
38:38
of sexuality, a positive vision for sexuality.
38:43
And in the Christian worldview, we were created
38:45
intentionally by God. He created our bodies,
38:49
minds, and souls with a clear purpose and a way
38:53
to operate them. as revealed in the Bible, that
38:56
will allow us to thrive, to thrive spiritually,
39:00
physically, emotionally, and sexually. So God's
39:04
design for sex and marriage and our body is not
39:06
about control or limiting our happiness. It's
39:09
about protecting us from harm and allowing us
39:12
to thrive. That's why he's created his way of
39:16
doing things. And this is true in other areas
39:19
as well. And this is one of the ways you can
39:20
kind of make this logical leap. Because the more
39:24
scientists discover about the body, let's say
39:26
as it relates to nutrition and exercise, the
39:29
more we can align ourselves to that truth, right?
39:32
Like there's certain foods that we're learning,
39:34
well, this is not really good for us, so I should
39:37
stop doing that so I can live in alignment with
39:41
the truth of how my body was designed to operate.
39:44
And that is a truth that secular culture will
39:47
buy into, by and large. And it's the same truth
39:50
as it relates to our sexuality. Because what
39:53
happens is we're trying to approach someone with
39:54
love. And we want to point them to Jesus. But
39:58
inevitably, you're going to have someone say,
40:00
well, is homosexuality a sin? Do you affirm homosexuals?
40:05
And dodging that question at that point is just
40:07
unhelpful. So what do you do in that moment?
40:11
Here's how I think you should handle it. First
40:13
of all, I usually respond as, well, do you really
40:16
want to know? And what I'm begging the question
40:18
there is, do you really want to hear what I have
40:21
to say or are you just kind of looking to fight
40:22
me? And even by asking that question, it makes
40:25
them go, okay, no, yeah, I do really want to
40:27
know what you have to say. And then the second
40:30
thing I'll say is, okay, well, if you want to
40:32
understand my view on sexuality, you need to
40:35
see it in context. And too often we kind of just
40:39
take it out of context and we don't understand
40:41
where that all fits in. So if I'm going to explain
40:46
it to you, let me give you the context. So the
40:49
context here is that I believe that every one
40:51
of us has incredible value because we were created
40:57
by God. That he loves us and knows us and that
41:03
he created us for a purpose. And that because
41:06
of that, no matter how I live my life, every
41:09
person deserves to be treated with love and dignity
41:12
and respect. So I'm challenging the first narrative
41:16
already, right, in that. And I'm also giving
41:18
a basis for human value and dignity that the
41:21
secular worldview does not have, right? And then
41:24
I say, and because I believe that we are created
41:27
by God on purpose, that he created us, like we've
41:31
talked about, to live in a certain way for our
41:34
good. That his rules are not about control or
41:38
limiting our freedom or fun. It's about, he wants,
41:42
he's like a good dad that wants the best for
41:44
us. And that when we live in alignment with that,
41:48
it's how we thrive and how we are healthy. So
41:52
my view on sexual ethic fits there. Now you may
41:56
not agree with it, but you understand that it
41:58
doesn't mean I hate people. And it doesn't mean
42:01
that I want to take away your fun, but I actually
42:03
want what's best. for you. And that is, that
42:07
is the basis why I believe that sexuality is,
42:11
is intended between one man and one woman in
42:14
the context of marriage. That is how it is for
42:17
our good. Now that's the context from which I
42:20
can explain it. Now they may still be offended
42:23
or they may still not like it, but at least they
42:25
understand the context, right? So that, that
42:28
is my encouragement is that that's the way you
42:30
can approach that question if it comes up. Now,
42:34
last thing, it's Jesus first, sexuality and behavior
42:39
and discipleship second, right? The goal here
42:44
is that we're introducing people to the person
42:46
of Jesus. And as they get to know Jesus, then
42:49
the secondary things of their behavior and their
42:51
sin will be dealt with afterwards. So one of
42:54
the challenges for the LGBT community and secular
42:57
culture in general, especially those that grew
42:59
up in the church, is they have a very legalistic
43:01
view of Christianity, right? They, and the LGBTQ
43:04
in particular believe that to become a Christian,
43:07
I have to act and behave a certain way first.
43:10
And that's not true, right? They don't understand
43:13
God's grace and unconditional love. And what
43:15
they don't understand is that submitting my sexuality
43:18
to God's design is a discipleship issue based
43:21
on trust that God is good, right? And which means
43:25
I know him, I trust him and that his ways are
43:27
better than my ways. And that until I have an
43:31
encounter, with the living God made possible
43:35
by Jesus' death and resurrection, and I surrender
43:38
my life to him and invite the Holy Spirit to
43:41
live in me, none of that will make sense. It
43:45
doesn't make sense to give up my sexuality unless
43:47
I know a good God who I trust and who I will
43:52
submit to. And so that's why they need to encounter
43:56
Jesus. And so as with anyone, the goal is not
43:59
to convince them to adopt your moral framework.
44:02
but to introduce them to the person of Jesus.
44:05
And Jesus is the ultimate answer to the intimacy
44:08
that we seek. He's the only one that will satisfy
44:12
our deepest desire for belonging and acceptance.
44:16
And when I experience the profound love of Jesus
44:19
and understand the beauty of who he is and what
44:23
he has done for me, all that the world has to
44:26
offer pales in comparison. I love the song, Turn
44:30
Your Eyes Upon Jesus, that says, turn your eyes
44:33
upon Jesus, look full into his wonderful face,
44:36
and the things of earth will grow strangely dim
44:39
in the light of his glory and grace. So rather
44:43
than focusing on their behavior, focus on introducing
44:46
them to the person of Jesus and surrendering
44:49
their life to Jesus. They are convicted and empowered
44:52
by the Holy Spirit to make him Lord of every
44:54
part of their life, including their sexuality.
44:59
You're listening to Living on the Edge and a
45:02
lesson from guest teacher Aaron Pierce called
45:04
Let's Talk About the Hard Stuff. If you've missed
45:08
any part of our series called Caring Enough to
45:10
Connect, don't forget you can always catch it
45:13
again whenever it's convenient by subscribing
45:15
to the Living on the Edge podcast. Everything
45:19
Aaron has poured into this series comes together
45:21
in his study resource called Not Beyond Reach
45:24
Participants Guide. Across 10 video -based sessions,
45:29
it carries you across these important topics,
45:31
starting spiritual conversations, introducing
45:34
the person of Jesus, and navigating tough subjects
45:37
with grace and conviction. It's built for small
45:40
groups, but just as valuable for a parent, a
45:43
grandparent, or anyone wanting practical tools
45:46
for reaching more people with Jesus. Each session
45:49
includes discussion questions and exercises built
45:52
to push your group past simply talking about
45:55
these ideas into actually living them out. So
45:58
don't wait. Get your copy today by going to livingontheedge
46:02
.org slash offers. Somewhere in your life, there's
46:06
a person who feels unreachable. Whether it's
46:09
a child, a neighbor, or a co -worker, this ministry
46:12
exists to remind both of you that no one really
46:15
is beyond God's reach. Teaching like today's
46:18
only continues to go out to homes like yours
46:21
because listeners choose, again and again, to
46:24
stand behind it financially. Wherever you're
46:27
listening from today, we invite you to support
46:29
this ministry with a generous gift. Just visit
46:32
us online at livingontheedge .org or call 888
46:36
- 333 -6003. You can also send your gift by mail
46:41
addressed to Living on the Edge, P .O. Box 3007,
46:46
Suwannee, Georgia, 30024. Now here's Chip Ingram
46:51
with Aaron to close us out. Thanks, Dave. Well,
46:54
Aaron, you have wrapped up your series today
46:56
by pressing, I think, maybe the biggest hot button
46:59
issue and conflict between the church and culture
47:02
there is. This tension between You know, loving
47:06
and holding to the truth, affirming people, but
47:10
at the same time, not affirming moral lifestyle
47:14
that contradicts what's best for people, because
47:17
God has made it really clear. It reminds me of
47:20
just the need to be bold and winsome, to be loving.
47:25
And this message really reminded me of... A lady
47:29
that I've read some of in the last few years
47:32
that's been really powerful. She's such a sharp
47:35
intellect. Her name is Dr. Rosaria Butterfield,
47:38
was a very outspoken lesbian. And she tells the
47:43
story of meeting for dinner with a pastor and
47:46
his wife, evangelical pastor and his wife. She
47:49
knew where they stood. They knew where she stood.
47:52
And literally, I mean, for, I mean, it sounded
47:55
like a couple years, like almost every week they
47:58
would have dinner and they were just friends.
48:01
And it was a safe place. And she could ask all
48:03
her questions and they could have disagreements.
48:06
And she has this great line. So many people talk
48:09
about my conversion and the change in my life.
48:12
And they always want to bring up my homosexuality.
48:15
Little did people know. that homosexuality wasn't
48:19
the big issue in my life. My sin before a holy
48:23
God, that was the big issue. It was out of the
48:26
bridge and the friendship and then the love and
48:30
the Bible and then the truth and their life that
48:34
brought her where the Spirit of God would reveal
48:37
to her what she needed was a Savior, and that
48:41
Savior is Jesus. That's the message of this book,
48:44
isn't it, Aaron? And it's really that we need
48:47
to build bridges. We need to love. We need to
48:49
stand strong on the truth. But we have to do
48:52
it in a winsome, loving way that accepts people
48:56
where they're at, builds a relationship, opens
48:59
the door to spiritual conversations. And then
49:02
after that, you have a gospel conversation where
49:05
we bring them to the point where they realize
49:07
there's a Savior. who loves them and loves us
49:11
right where we are. And I just want to say, Aaron,
49:14
thank you so much for sharing with the Living
49:17
on the Edge family. And I'd just like to end
49:19
this whole series by giving you a chance to kind
49:22
of answer one question. What do you hope that
49:25
people will get from listening to this series
49:27
and from reading the book that we've put together?
49:31
Thank you, Chip. It's been such an honor and
49:34
a privilege to be able to do this with you. And
49:36
my prayer is that this book and the series that
49:41
we're doing together would just be a source of
49:44
hope and encouragement for parents and grandparents
49:47
and for pastors and youth and young adults that
49:51
this generation, while often it can feel very
49:54
challenging, this generation is not beyond reach.
49:58
And if you'd like to go deeper with everything
50:01
Aaron has shared with us, look for his book called
50:03
Not Beyond Reach at livingontheedge .org. That's
50:08
all for today. Join us next time here on Living
50:10
on the Edge. Today's program is produced and
50:16
sponsored by Living on the Edge.