Latest / Coffee Playdate Podcast with Dr. Olga Deengar / Charting Conquered Ep 41: How Dr. Junaid Niazi Helps Physicians Reclaim Their Evenings
Transcript
- Dr. Olga Deengar: Welcome to the Coffee Playdate podcast. My name is Dr. Olga Dingar and I have a very special guest with me today, Dr. Junaid Niazi. Welcome. Dr. Junaid Niazi: Hi Olga, thanks for having me today. Dr. Olga Deengar: I'm excited to get started. always like to ask my guests if you drink coffee and how do you like your coffee? Dr. Junaid Niazi: I'm a bit of an odd duck. I don't like hot coffee. like room temperature or iced, even in the bitter, bitter cold. But it has to not taste awful, meaning I have to add some form of dairy and some sweetener to it. Dr. Olga Deengar: That is a very interesting way of drinking coffee, that's awesome. Whatever works for you, right? Dr. Junaid Niazi: Yep, it's just sort of a necessary caffeine concoction. Dr. Olga Deengar: Yeah, we're going to start with our first game. That's a rapid fire questions game. I'm going to ask you to choose between one of the two answers and you don't need to explain yourself. Just go with your gut instinct. First one is charting during the patient visit or at the end of the day. Dr. Junaid Niazi: testing my entire business foundation during the visit. Dr. Olga Deengar: Great. How about this one? Systems and templates or intuition and flexibility? Dr. Junaid Niazi: I'll go systems and templates. Dr. Olga Deengar: Would you rather have your EMR templates deleted forever or lose your calendar system? Dr. Junaid Niazi: I have the templates deleted. Dr. Olga Deengar: Yep, good. And the last one here charting perfectly but slowly or imperfectly but twice as fast. Dr. Junaid Niazi: imperfectly and twice as fast. Dr. Olga Deengar: Awesome. These are tricky ones. Dr. Junaid Niazi: Well, yeah, well, if you can't explain yourself, I'm always hedging or saying, but there's an exception to things. Fun game for me to play. Dr. Olga Deengar: Yeah, the next one is called take a sip. It's the same concept, but this time we both answer and if our answers match, then we take a sip from our coffee cups. Dr. Junaid Niazi: Got it? Dr. Olga Deengar: Voice dictation or typing everything out. Dr. Junaid Niazi: I like typing. Dr. Olga Deengar: I'm going to go with voice dictation. Next one. Dr. Junaid Niazi: I'm an odd duck there. Dr. Olga Deengar: Outside of work, do you like to recharge by reading and learning or spending time in nature? Dr. Junaid Niazi: We have to go with reading and learning. That's a close second with nature. Dr. Olga Deengar: Yeah, me too. Next one is a luxury hotel or a cozy Airbnb for your next trip. Dr. Junaid Niazi: I will say Cozy Airbnb. Dr. Olga Deengar: Yep, me too. Cheers. It depends where you're going, right, for your next trip. Dr. Junaid Niazi: That's, yeah, I was like, well internationally I might want. Dr. Olga Deengar: And the last question here, gym workouts or outdoor activities? Which do you prefer? Dr. Junaid Niazi: outdoor activities. Dr. Olga Deengar: outdoor activities. Me too. Cheers to that. All right. So, Jeanette, I wanted to have you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and the incredible work that you're doing. Dr. Junaid Niazi: Yeah, so I'm a double boarded internist and pediatrician in the Minneapolis area. I work in primary care. I've cut back my hours, so I'm not full full time about 70 % right now. And I've always had a desire to do something sort of else like feed a creative side, if you will. When I was a kid, I was pretty artistic. I was drawing, I was making stuff out of play or wire. And when you go through medical training, you kind of are set on a path and you don't really get to explore that creative side as much. I think after finishing residency, getting established in my practice, I was really craving just some way to explore that side for myself. I also play the play the drums so that music has been a big outlet for that. but I really wanted to do something that helped advance physicians and clinicians in the United States in our healthcare system. Because obviously as I went through training, as I got into my own practice, I started to realize there were so many issues that were keeping me and my colleagues really stuck and burning out. And I... was I thought there would there are ways out of it and I just wanted to start exploring that and I stumbled across a sort of mindset work and coaching and at first I thought it's kind of woo woo or you know rah rah toxic positivity type work but as I started to engage with it and actually self-reflect and journal and such it I saw the power in it especially at a very challenging time so 2020 obviously, start of a pandemic. Our second kid was born and I live in Minneapolis and George Floyd was murdered about nine blocks away from where I live. I had to drive around with a I am a physician like I'm allowed to be on the road during like curfew and everything closed down National Guard was in here. So it was a very interesting time and I was doing pretty well. And like, even my wife's like, what is like, how are you so you're just like focused and optimistic during this time. And I'm like, I think it's this coaching stuff I'm doing. So I I didn't know how I wanted to share coaching though with my colleagues. I just knew that it was something powerful and something that they could benefit from. And as I met other physician coaches and started helping out maybe coaching, guest coaching in their programs, one thing that always came up was I was always piping in when folks had questions about workflows or charting or things like that. And so one of them actually sort of challenged me and said, hey, you should do a class or a webinar for my group on this topic. from there, sort of the rest has been history. I started a group coaching program called Charting Conquered. And it's been running now for just over five years. And just finished our 10th cohort, I believe, 10th or 11th. Collecting data about it, trying to. build off of it and find new ways to reach physicians and APPs that are really considering leaving medicine because of all of the administrative burdens that are just the second job when they get home. Dr. Olga Deengar: Yeah. I mean, that's, that's quite a journey. And I'm glad that you stumbled upon coaching because I also believe there's incredible potential to really transform your life. When you work with a coach now, do you feel like you are just as energized now working with your clients as you were when you got started five years ago? Dr. Junaid Niazi: Yeah, I mean, think there's a, know, Zoom was new to everybody meeting people across the country was a little bit new. So there was maybe a little novelty at that point. But even with the this last cohort that finished up about a month ago, I mean, the energy is high on the calls. The every person is bringing their own situation. So even if I'm pulling from other experiences and other folks that I've coached. It's different. I might be pulled to present an example differently to them or reflect for them how they're thinking and what their specific thought processes are and where they're getting stuck. I don't know, that's, again, that's really tapping into that creative side, which we get to use some in medicine, educating patients and such, but on such a sort of intimate level where I'm also helping people really reclaim their time and reclaim their lives and find their joy in medicine again, I think it's very motivating for me. Dr. Olga Deengar: Yeah, and it is such a big challenge that we are faced with all of the administrative burden that we have. mean, physicians are like on the verge of quitting, at least some that I've met as well because of all of this. just too much. It eats up all of your time and then you don't have any time to spend with your family and be present with them when you come home. What are some of the ways that you help physicians navigate through this type of challenge? Dr. Junaid Niazi: Yeah, well, first is just recognizing they're not alone. So a lot of people, even if they read all the surveys and the data that is out there about how prevalent these issues are, they seem to think it's uniquely a problem with themselves. And they sort of have siloed themselves. just saying, and that's a quick realization and a quick epiphany for a lot of folks that enter my world is I'm not alone. thought it was just something was wrong with me. Not that I had never been taught these things, not that anyone had ever put effort or focus to consider what might be different paths forward. So number one is recognizing they're not alone because I think when you're able to recognize that and see that others are struggling with you, that opens you up to the possibility that there could be solutions that aren't like fixing yourself or that there are solutions that are possible. I think the second biggest thing is realizing how much of their issues with charting are actually mindset issues and based on these under the surface beliefs that they have about what their patients might think, what their colleagues might think, what they might think about themselves, and how that manifests. in the only physical evidence of their encounter, which is often their note, and so how people really invest a lot of emotional weight into their note. And they don't need to do that. Dr. Olga Deengar: Yeah. Speaking of mindset, what has been one of the biggest mindset shifts that you needed to make as you were creating your coaching business and building it? Dr. Junaid Niazi: Yeah, I'd say I go through phases where I'm really good at this and then phases where I'm not really good at it. But I think it's allowing the business and the exploration of entrepreneurship to feel fun and to feel like a game almost. And one way I've tried to construct this when talking with other entrepreneurs and other coaches it's almost like an escape room. Like you get to try something and if it doesn't work, you have to you have to try to find another solution. But everything that you try is information about something that didn't work, which is still useful and can still push you forward. But if you if you don't look at it sort of through this lens of this can be fun, it just becomes it can become another chore. And then it becomes something you want to avoid doing or you're putting off or you're procrastinating. And so I think for me, consistently making it something that I enjoy coming back to that I enjoy doing and iterating and pivoting and such. And so I love tinkering with different aspects of the business because that's something that's fun to me and fun for me. Dr. Olga Deengar: I love that. I always try to ask myself, like, how do I make this even more fun? Can I add some music? Can I add an experience that I haven't thought of before? And I love that you also try to kind of gamify every opportunity, every challenge that comes your way as you build your business. What's one specific example that you can give with relation to this? Dr. Junaid Niazi: Yeah, so when I was before I had found my path with documentation and charting, I actually was planning on being a physician sort of finance, personal finance coach, and I was really struggling to find, you know, because the their skills in becoming a coach, but then their skills and running a business and those are actually two separate skill sets and sometimes you think like, I've trained as a coach and people are just going to find me and that is not the case. So I put a lot of time and effort and I was really dreading kind of like building out my original website. And it was just sort of slowing me down for months. And I wanted to do it myself because I wanted to find my words, my verbiage, kind of that message I wanted to get through. And when I just stopped taking it so seriously, like, so much depends on this, because at this point, nothing really depended on like no one knew about me. I knew about me, I was literally an N of one that cared about this website. So when I was finally able to let go of all this extra emotional baggage, I was attaching to it, and just kind of like, let's just see what comes get a draft out there and just edit away and treat it like a game. if I try this and I don't like how this sounds or how this copy works in relation to something else, I can change it pretty easily. I'm the only person who knows about this thing at this point. Dr. Olga Deengar: Yeah, I know what you mean. It's like you think that people would kind of come and gravitate towards you once they find out that you're a coach, but you really have to put in the work to really get the word out and just make people aware that this is what you're doing and this is the value that you can bring Dr. Junaid Niazi: Mm-hmm. Dr. Olga Deengar: to them. So I can totally relate to this. Dr. Junaid Niazi: Yeah, turns out the internet's a big place, so. Dr. Olga Deengar: Yeah. Now we talked about mindset and I want to shift a little bit to challenges. So thinking about a challenge that you've had in the past on your journey, what was that challenge and how did you learn and grow from it? Dr. Junaid Niazi: Yeah, for this is related to the gamifying sort of aspect of it, but. taking, you know, recognizing that I am often the bottleneck in my business and figuring out how can I offload the work that doesn't require my expertise, my input, while keeping the business feeling like it's still mine. And I think when... One of the challenges is we often treat our business like a baby and you just kind of want to like, you know, protect and nurture that baby. But a baby like is, can cry at any time of the day, require, you know, needs to be fed, needs to have its diapers changed all the time. And it really helps to have other people that can step in and help you with those tasks from time to time and even take the baby for a little while when they're crying, just so you can have a breather. So. recognizing that getting something out there is and we thought you know one of your rapid fire questions was about imperfect notes twice as fast verse perfect that took twice as long getting imperfect anything out there program blog post podcast whatever it may be is just way way better than not getting it out and letting 80 % of the work you've done, all the cognitive labor part of it just sort of wallow and fester away. so getting people to come help you and outsourcing tasks, this has obviously changed in the last three years with AI specifically, but just, think it's. important that I often pause and be like, how am I getting in the way of this? how could this sort of what's least, you some people might call it their MVP minimal viable product, but sort of the least complex, easiest version to launch this upon which I can iterate. Dr. Olga Deengar: Yeah. And that's really interesting that you bring up AI there have been some AI tools like an AI scribe and other things that were introduced that helped them become more efficient at charting. Do you see that as well with your clients that they've become more efficient because of AI? Dr. Junaid Niazi: Yeah, I like to caution them that these are just AI tools, just like other tools. I can give you a tool and you cannot know how to use it and you could end up slowing yourself down. and there's been some articles actually just came out, I think about six weeks ago, the average AI primary care doc that uses an AI scribe saves a total of 16 minutes a day. on documentation and ends up seeing, pardon? Dr. Olga Deengar: That's not that much. Wow. That's not that much. Dr. Junaid Niazi: Right, right. But I think it's the cognitive load that they're sort of offloading that people think that this is, helping me tremendously, right? So right now with the state that, for example, most AI scribes are at, it's not worth it for me to actually shift and use them except for in very specific cases. So if you're coming in for a very acute issue, URI, UTI, back pain, something like that, I will use our AI scribe. for most of my patients who are coming in for wellness or Medicare or something like that. My note over the years, my HPI is very organized and I chop it down and add little bits as I go. And AI currently cannot capture that without me re dictating all of that out. And that would just take me forever. also puts it as a giant block of text. it's getting better with some of these things, but right now the the pain of switching over to AI for all my visit notes, for example, greatly outweighs potential benefit. And that's sort of an individual thing that people have to consider for themselves. Dr. Olga Deengar: Yeah, you have your own system in place. You've been doing it in a very efficient way for a long time. So why make that switch? You're of causing yourself more pain with doing so. Dr. Junaid Niazi: Yeah, I mean, I close most of my encounters before the patient has left the room. And with AI, I'd have to wait until that little dictation, which is getting faster, know, often within 30 seconds to two minutes after I leave the room. But that would still slow me down and leave Dr. Olga Deengar: Yeah. Dr. Junaid Niazi: a little open loop for me, which I'm not a fan of. Dr. Olga Deengar: No, I totally get that. Now, shifting gears a little bit, just wanted to see what type of advice would you give someone who is just starting out in a similar space as you? Dr. Junaid Niazi: Yeah, I think the through line here is you just you got to get started and you just got to keep taking little steps and you will miss step but the greatest predictor of your success is going to be how willing you are to misstep and fail and adjust course correct iterate pivot whatever it may be and that's a scary thing for physicians specifically because in our line of work or day jobs, misstepping, failing is generally considered not an option and can have dire outcomes. So it's really something we have to intentionally internalize and say that this is okay. Like all those motivational posters that were around our schools when we were kids that we all thought were like, this is just silly nonsense because our education system really didn't abide by those motivational posters. It's like, yeah, that stuff's actually kind of true. Dr. Olga Deengar: You Dr. Junaid Niazi: following those posters. Dr. Olga Deengar: Yeah, I love that advice. That's really great. And is there a book recommendation that you have for listeners today? Dr. Junaid Niazi: Yeah, this will probably apply to just folks that are in a certain stage. They're not necessarily starting from scratch at this point, but they've been in business for a couple of years and they realize they want to get kind of more organized and kind of again, extract themselves out of their business so they're not the bottleneck. So there's a book called Get Scalable by Ryan Dice and I find myself coming back to that book not infrequently to use one of his methods or tools to employ or bring about in my business. Dr. Olga Deengar: I haven't heard of that one yet. I'm excited to read it. That's great. Dr. Junaid Niazi: Yeah, it's a good one. Dr. Olga Deengar: And how can our listeners learn more about your work? Where can they find you? Dr. Junaid Niazi: Yeah, they can find me. My website is prosperous life MD.com all one word. And then I'm most prolific on Instagram is my preferred social media where I'm Junaid Niazi underscore MD. So they can find me there. Dr. Olga Deengar: Perfect. Well, thank you so much, Junaid. It's been a pleasure having you on the Coffee Plate Aid podcast and I'm excited to see how your business grows. Dr. Junaid Niazi: Yeah, I appreciate it. It's been fun. Thank you.