Latest / Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo / Holly Pivec: Guarding Your Heart Against Cynicism & Hyper-Discernment

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Holly Pivec: Guarding Your Heart Against Cynicism & Hyper-Discernment · Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo

• 0:03
  Welcome to Worldview Matters, discussing controversial issues, discerning current events, defending biblical Christianity.
• 0:13
  No topic, off limits.
• 0:16
  And now, here's your host, David Fiorazzo.
• 0:20
  Hello, brothers and sisters in Christ.
• 0:21
  Thank you so much for tuning in and for sharing our podcast, another episode of Worldview Matters.
• 0:26
  I don't know what number we're on.
• 0:27
  I think we hit 500 earlier this year, so I'll ask my producer who will get an update.
• 0:32
  But I do want to tell you, this is the first week where we just put up the new conference website for next year.
• 0:39
  We've got all the speakers confirmed, 14 speakers, two days, April 30th, May 1st, Green Bay, Wisconsin, worldviewmattersconference.com, worldviewmattersconference.com.
• 0:54
  I'll be telling you about that for the next several weeks and months, so make sure to go there.
• 0:59
  We did sell out early.
• 1:01
  Last time we added some seats.
• 1:03
  We got a new venue.
• 1:04
  So Tundra Lodge, by the way, in Green Bay.
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  So I want to bring in our guest today.
• 1:09
  Holly Pivick is back with us.
• 1:10
  She's on Substack.
• 1:12
  Her main website, hollypivick.com.
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  Her books, New Apostolic Reformation, Reckless Christianity, and the most recent Counterfeit Kingdom.
• 1:22
  And she does a lot of exposing of the NAR.
• 1:25
  But the topic we're going to talk about today, she's over on YouTube as well as Substack, Exposing False Teachings Without Losing Your Soul.
• 1:33
  We're calling it the Cynicism Trap.
• 1:35
  It's based on one of her videos.
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  I think it's a very important topic to talk about because discernment is the word of the year.
• 1:42
  Holly Pivik, welcome back.
• 1:44
  Thank you so much for your time today.
• 1:46
  Thanks, David.
• 1:47
  I always love talking with you.
• 1:49
  Yes, and you're coming to us live from your new home.
• 1:52
  Well, you're, you know, temporary studio, but you're now in North Carolina.
• 1:58
  So hopefully you'll get settled by the next time we have you on.
• 2:02
  Everything will be great.
• 2:03
  But, you know, it's I know moving is hard.
• 2:06
  So thanks for squeezing us into your schedule today.
• 2:10
  Oh, yes, I was very glad to.
• 2:12
  Yeah.
• 2:13
  So, all right, let's talk about this.
• 2:15
  In a recent podcast, you spoke about avoiding the cynicism trap.
• 2:20
  What do you mean by that?
• 2:22
  I think I know, because I've been watching discernment ministries for probably a couple decades, and some of them go off the rails and go a little too far.
• 2:31
  So just give us an overview before we dive in further.
• 2:35
  Yes, of course.
• 2:36
  Yeah.
• 2:37
  So one thing that I've noticed is a lot of people when they about false teachings in the church, like the new house teachings, progressive Christianity, they, they notice that they start seeing these false teachings really everywhere, a lot of places.
• 2:58
  And so what happens is they can become cynical.
• 3:03
  And, you know, they're at church and they might hear some music that's produced by an art church like Bethel Church, Bethel Music, or, you know, they see things popping up in their church that might have some connections with a false movement or something like that.
• 3:22
  And it seems like everywhere they look, they're seeing these false teachings.
• 3:25
  And the temptation is to become cynical, to become jaded.
• 3:30
  And so just maybe even the danger is that people might just want to check out of church completely, check out of being involved with any ministries, because they're just like everywhere we look, we are running into false teachings.
• 3:44
  And that's something I sensed in talking with people and,
• 3:48
  It's something anyone who addresses false teachings regularly, like myself, have to fight back in our own hearts.
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  And I even share in the podcast that when I was at Biola, I had a theology professor who warned students about
• 4:05
  going into polemics, and that's the field of theology that addresses heresy and false teaching in the church.
• 4:11
  And said, you got to be really careful when going into that field, because, you know, the danger is that, that you'll become cynical.
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  And so you have to choose wisely going into that path.
• 4:23
  So, so that is a topic I felt like to address with my listeners.
• 4:29
  And it really seemed to resonate with people.
• 4:32
  What do you think about, I guess, guilt by association when one speaker, a sound doctrine, a biblical pastor will go to maybe an event where he speaks with, doesn't lock arms with or partner with these other pastors or organizations, but he might speak with...
• 4:53
  In a group with people that we probably would say, oh, no.
• 4:57
  What do you think about that?
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  Is that a concern?
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  Because some people split hairs over that, too.
• 5:03
  Yeah, I mean, that is a tricky issue.
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  I do think that people, that we need to be really careful with who we partner with, who we share platforms with, you know, that by sharing platforms with false teachers, that the danger is that it will look like we are affirming their false teaching.
• 5:25
  And I know people have to draw the line in different places on that, but I do think it's something that people need to be very mindful of.
• 5:33
  people who there are people who are very critical anytime they see someone speak at an event where someone else is speaking who you know might have some bad teaching and I think those people who are critical also need to be mindful that that
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  they need to be gracious and realize that there's a lot that's going into those decisions.
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  And maybe the person that made that decision had a reason.
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  For example, I'm invited to speak at places where I don't agree with the theology completely.
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  But at the same time, they want me to speak against NAR.
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  And so if they give me a platform to speak against NAR,
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  when I don't totally agree with their theology.
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  And in some cases, I might think that they actually have some NAR influence on them.
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  And the reason I accept the invitation is because I'm like, wow, they're inviting me to come warn their people about NAR, and these are the people who need to know about NAR.
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  And so everybody has to kind of, all the speakers have to make those decisions and hopefully we'll weigh those very carefully so they don't lend their credibility to false teaching.
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  So I just want to share for newer viewers to the podcast, or if you are a newer believer in Christ, NAR is the New Apostolic Reformation.
• 6:52
  Heidi has done a ton of research, and you can check out her books on that topic.
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  But there's also the case where someone agrees to go speak somewhere—
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  before a false teacher or someone else gets added to the event or speaker lineup.
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  And it's kind of out of your control.
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  So you have a choice to make.
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  You can prayerfully go forward and still speak the truth and do what you were called to do by God and share the true gospel.
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  Or you can say, you know what, I can no longer do this based on who else you have there.
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  And I think that comes down to a case-by-case or individual...
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  Doesn't it, what they discern and what they decide to do?
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  And you've got to give people grace, so we need to really remember that in these discernment issues, correct?
• 7:43
  Yeah, I think people need to look at the overall track record of a speaker and see, do they regularly speak with false teachers?
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  Are they someone that warns against false teaching and maybe realize that there's a reason they chose to go into this situation?
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  And there's one thing with—
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  you know, speaking with someone who's a flat-out false teacher who's promoting heresy, or maybe that person they're speaking with promotes some doctrines that are aberrant or they're not sound, but it's not outright heresy either.
• 8:13
  I mean, these are all factors that might go into someone's decision about whether to speak with someone whose teachings they disagree with.
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  But yeah.
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  The you know, I think that if if someone the main thing is that someone is warning against false teachings and that they don't have to compromise their their platform to go speak with someone else that they are free to say what they think they should be able to say, even critiquing false teachings.
• 8:43
  Yeah, we've mentioned grace several times already, and you call it a subtle line between spotting doctrinal error in the church and the extreme of that, not trusting anyone or anything, or looking for something under a rock, you know, going to the extremes.
• 9:02
  How do you navigate that subtle line, Holly?
• 9:07
  Yeah, well, so I actually shared three tips in my podcast for helping people not, you know, guard their heart against cynicism.
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  And the first tip is to remember that all believers are at different places in their walks with God, including ourselves.
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  And so we may be further along the path than other believers.
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  We may be more mature spiritually.
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  And so because of that, we may see false teachings.
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  that other people don't yet see.
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  And it's not that those people don't want to learn about the false teachings, but they're just not yet aware of them.
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  And so if you're in a church situation, remembering that other believers might be new believers, they might not be aware of the false teachings and show them grace, just like God has showed us grace because many of us in the past have believed things that we now wouldn't necessarily agree with, but God was patient with us and God,
• 10:02
  And our eyes were open to that error.
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  And in the same way, we need to be patient with other people and realize they're at different places.
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  They may have not been raised in a Christian home or attended a church where they were taught to be discerning.
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  And so these are all things that will help us be more gracious and not become cynical towards other people who may be less discerning than us.
• 10:24
  The second thing was I encourage my listeners to not focus on only the false.
• 10:30
  That's a danger when you are addressing false teaching in the church, especially someone like myself who, and others who do this professionally, the danger is that you're always going to be thinking about false teaching and you're not going to be thinking about what's true and beautiful and lovely like
• 10:53
  So and I even share the example of when I was newly married, I got into watching murder mystery shows and not my husband.
• 11:01
  He always thought that's creepy.
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  I don't know why you like those shows.
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  But I got into watching them and a lot when he was gone.
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  And I would find myself becoming scared every time I heard a sound in my house that I didn't recognize or something.
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  I thought, oh, they're coming after me.
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  And so I realized what I was feeding my mind with was affecting my thinking.
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  And in the same way, people need to be careful that if we're always just thinking about false teaching, then we might see false teaching around every bush, behind every bush.
• 11:31
  And so we should also be reading books, theology that's true, listening to worship music, the things that will just enrich our souls and help us worship God, even going out in nature.
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  and enjoying God's beautiful creation, those kind of things.
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  So we don't become unbalanced.
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  And then the third tip I had for people to guard their hearts against becoming cynical is to find their people.
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  And by that, what I meant is when you're in a church, you might feel like you're one of the only people seeing
• 12:04
  false teachings, one of the only one who doesn't care about that.
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  But there are usually other people and you just need to find those.
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  And it could be a book study, you know, a book that's critiquing false teachings.
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  And then that will draw out other people in the church who share their concerns.
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  It will help create a culture of discernment in the church where they're
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  It might not be strong already.
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  And if they can't do that in their church, they can always do that outside the church.
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  Start reading a book together with friends.
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  You can go to conferences that warn about false teaching.
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  You know, you can join Facebook groups.
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  And I have my own Substack community where we have a book club where we're
• 12:41
  where we study and talk about NAR and false teachings together.
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  And so it's important to find your people so you don't feel like you're alone.
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  And one thing I want to be really clear about is when I talk about false teachings in your church, I'm not saying that anyone should tolerate heretical teachings.
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  Those would be essential if they deny essential Christian doctrines like the deity of Christ, the Trinity,
• 13:07
  salvation by faith alone, these kind of things.
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  And those churches are heretical and they should flee those churches because they're outside Christianity.
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  And they shouldn't tolerate aberrant doctrines either.
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  Those would be serious error that are dangerous even if they're not necessarily heretical.
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  So things like new apostolic reformation teachings, word of faith teachings, prosperity gospel teachings,
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  these things are aberrant and people need to run from those churches.
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  But what I'm talking about right now is churches that are generally sound, where the people in the church want to be discerning, but they have room to grow.
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  And if you start seeing, you notice things in those churches,
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  that bother you, like the use of nar music sometimes or different things like that, then in those cases, I'm saying that these are ways to guard your heart against cynicism.
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  Friends, I think one of the things I want to reemphasize of what Holly just pointed out is we need to remember other people.
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  We're at different levels of maturity in Christ, different levels of discernment.
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  But what you said, we're all at different places in our walk as well.
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  Some people aren't experienced.
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  They've just been taking whatever they can take at church and they take it as gospel.
• 14:27
  But we've got to really...
• 14:30
  as you said, guard our hearts and be discerning and know what the Bible teaches, because some of these are very subtle.
• 14:36
  Some of these teachings, some of these ideas, some of these false gospels.
• 14:40
  So let's now transition to another program you did.
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  I didn't know a lot about Catherine Crick.
• 14:47
  But when I read some of the information and what she teaches and some of the things she said, some of the practices, and were people laying stuff at her feet, this is just really concerning.
• 14:58
  So I want to talk about this for the next part of the podcast.
• 15:02
  And before I do that, I think it's important to go back to Ephesians 4, 11 and read this again and have you expound on it before we dive into her ministry.
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  It says, And he gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors, and some as teachers.
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  Verse 12, So, Holly,
• 15:37
  That's an important passage.
• 15:39
  There are a lot of pastors, they're not really equipping the saints, but there are some that are also throwing some stuff in there that doesn't belong or misinterpreting Ephesians 4 here in the fivefold ministry.
• 15:51
  Tell us about that before we dive into Catherine Crick and just inform our viewers about her ministry.
• 15:58
  Yeah, so as you mentioned, you know, I've written four books about the new apostolic reformation movement.
• 16:03
  And the core teaching of that movement is that apostles and prophets are supposed to govern the church today.
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  They are supposed to hold hierarchical governing offices and all others, including pastors and elders, are supposed to submit to them.
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  And they say that that's so that the apostles and prophets can bring critical new revelation that the church requires today.
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  to bring God's physical kingdom to earth.
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  And they would say those apostles and prophets have been missing for centuries.
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  And now they're being restored through this movement so the church can have these revelation, these strategies to bring God's kingdom to earth.
• 16:37
  Well, they base that doctrine on Ephesians 4.11, the verse you just read.
• 16:42
  They would say that verse teaches that Christ gave apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers five offices to govern the church in each generation.
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  And they would say that the problem is that churches have been missing the apostles and prophets.
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  They've only had like a threefold ministry.
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  And so that's, they say we need all, all five offices.
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  So the church really can become, sometimes they'll give an analogy of like a fist to, to bring God's kingdom to earth and the apostle and prophet or, you know, like the thumb and the forefinger, the most important offices.
• 17:15
  And so fivefold ministry really is a, and it's.
• 17:17
  And so my point of my article about Katherine Crick was she's been getting a lot of attention.
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  She's a 35-year-old pastor at a church in Los Angeles, and she's very sensational.
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  She started off as an actress, from what I understood, and didn't stick with that.
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  She ended up becoming an apostle instead.
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  And she's very theatrical.
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  Like you mentioned, she had a birthday celebration where people came and laid birthday gifts at her feet, and, you know, she had a birthday celebration.
• 17:46
  like the people brought gifts to the apostles in the book of Acts, the Christ apostles.
• 17:51
  You know, she does these dramatic deliverance, casting out demons, allegedly, and healing people.
• 17:58
  There was a book signing event where she was signing her new book, copies of her new book at a Barnes & Noble, and that video went viral recently because
• 18:06
  the people that came to her book signing, her followers, were falling on the floor and jerking and crying and yelling and having allegedly under the influence of the Holy Spirit.
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  But this is the type of reaction people have when they come into her presence.
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  And so a lot of people have been pointing out
• 18:24
  that she's like a cult leader and she's dangerous.
• 18:27
  And it's true that Catherine Crick is dangerous, but what I wanted to point out in my episode was that all of her core doctrines about five-fold ministry, her other core doctrines and practices, are the same as what pastors and apostles and prophets are teaching in churches across America and around the world.
• 18:47
  These are new standard New Apostolic Reformation teachings.
• 18:50
  And my concern is that people will get so hung up on her journey
• 18:55
  theatrics and the sensationalism and they'll all point fingers at her and say she's dangerous while they're at the same time they're missing what you know the soft spoken pastors older men maybe are teaching it at their that their church that these teachings are just as dangerous, even if they're not.
• 19:13
  as sensational.
• 19:14
  So I was really encouraging people to become more discerning.
• 19:17
  And one thing that really concerns me is I've actually seen people who are either part of the new Apostolic Reformation or I would say they're adjacent to the new Apostolic Reformation, people who have defended leaders in the new Apostolic Reformation who have actually been coming after Catherine Crick and exposing her.
• 19:36
  And so the danger is, you know, by going after
• 19:39
  the low hanging fruit, people like Catherine Crick, they can look like they're discerning and they can fly under the radar and still continue to promote the same teachings that she does.
• 19:50
  Very interesting.
• 19:51
  So what she's in Southern California.
• 19:53
  What, what is five F church?
• 19:55
  Is that the name of her church?
• 19:57
  Yeah, it stands 5F.
• 19:59
  It stands for five-fold ministry.
• 20:01
  That's the core doctrine we're talking about.
• 20:04
  So in her new book, I can't remember the name of it right now, but in her new book, she has an entire chapter, chapter two, which addresses restoring the five-fold ministry.
• 20:15
  That's just standard NAR doctrine.
• 20:18
  And if you read it, it's just, it sounds like it could be any NAR leader's book.
• 20:22
  I've read
• 20:24
  dozens of books saying the same thing as she is, but she's getting all the attention because she's more sensational.
• 20:31
  Theatrics.
• 20:32
  It's no wonder she was an actress.
• 20:34
  I mean, Southern California, people go for stuff like that.
• 20:39
  It might look good and flashy, but friends, more often than not, it's not biblical.
• 20:45
  And people come to see the show.
• 20:47
  People will, you know, you can attract a crowd, but it's easy to attract a crowd.
• 20:51
  It's harder to make disciples, isn't it?
• 20:57
  That, yeah, that's for sure.
• 20:59
  So one more thing I wanted to ask you about specifically about titles like Mama and Papa.
• 21:06
  How are these being misused within her ministry?
• 21:10
  Yeah, so one thing people who have been critiquing Catherine Crick have pointed out is that they referred to her as Mama.
• 21:19
  And people are saying, you know, that's weird.
• 21:21
  Why would they refer to her as Mama?
• 21:24
  But people need to realize that it's common in the New Apostolic Reformation to refer to
• 21:29
  apostles and prophets, well, spiritual fathers and spiritual mothers.
• 21:33
  And so Bill Johnson is called
• 21:37
  Papa Bill, Cheyenne, a leading apostle in this movement who ran for governor recently, he's called Papa Che.
• 21:45
  Cindy Jacobs is a prophet in this movement, and she's been called Mama Cindy Jacobs.
• 21:50
  And so when people call Catherine Crick Mama, you know, they're just doing the same thing that is just standard NAR practice.
• 21:59
  Yeah.
• 22:01
  So we've got five minutes left.
• 22:03
  It's going by fast.
• 22:03
  But one of the things we talked about in a previous episode with you was our concerns about Paula White, Kane, and her being in this faith office speaking into President Trump's ear.
• 22:16
  Now he's got a lot of advisors.
• 22:18
  I'm sure he gets...
• 22:19
  conflicting advice at times, but have you heard anything recently?
• 22:24
  There we go.
• 22:25
  That was one we did with you last year, I think, discerning Paula White NAR, the new White House faith office.
• 22:33
  Have you heard any updates on that?
• 22:34
  Have you heard any other people that you're concerned about that are in that office that are, you know, working, you know, or in the administration?
• 22:44
  Have you heard anything, Holly?
• 22:47
  Yeah, you know, I can't think of anything offhand, but I will say I am regularly contacted by reporters, and these are secular reporters, who are very concerned about this new Apostolic Reformation movement.
• 23:02
  And a lot of it is because...
• 23:05
  you know, they see the influence of these people on President Trump and and and they see that the NAR leaders seek to bring God's kingdom to earth.
• 23:16
  And so their concerns is they're seeking to establish something like a theocracy.
• 23:21
  So I'm often speaking with reporters talking about this, and they know I'm an evangelical Christian, and they are interested in the fact that there are evangelical Christians who are warning about this movement.
• 23:35
  And one thing I say to these reporters is, you know, they often seem really concerned that these NARA leaders might actually be able to establish some type of theocracy because of their influence on religion.
• 23:49
  President Trump or other conservative politicians and I often tell them that I that's not really my big concern We live in a nation with you know this democratic government with Checks and balances and so I don't think that they are going to get very far with establishing a theocracy and You know, but there, you know, they obviously are you
• 24:15
  damaging the church's witness in the public square.
• 24:18
  People are thinking that this is what Christianity is because of all their distortions of Christianity.
• 24:24
  And the other ways this movement is hurting people in so many ways, just splitting families and churches, you know, destroying people's faith, making people feel like it's their fault if a loved one isn't healed of a sickness or disease.
• 24:38
  This movement is damaging in so many ways, but yeah,
• 24:42
  The media, the secular media, you know, understandably, they're they don't you know, they're not as concerned about Christian theology and what they would call intramural debates.
• 24:54
  And so they really want to focus, focus on the politics.
• 24:57
  So it's interesting that to have have these discussions with these reporters.
• 25:04
  And it's interesting that secular reporters contact you.
• 25:07
  That's what's interesting to me.
• 25:08
  But friends, we need to know how to respond to this because you're right.
• 25:11
  Some of these movements and false teachings and the activity or the theatrics at way too many churches give criticism.
• 25:19
  Christianity and the Bible a bad name when they're abusing it or it's false.
• 25:23
  But we need to know how to respond and say, you know what, that's not biblical.
• 25:26
  That's not a true church.
• 25:28
  They're acting like that.
• 25:29
  Where is that?
• 25:30
  I always ask for the BCV, book, chapter, and verse, where people are doing crazy things, laughing like a hyena or whatever.
• 25:39
  So we've got just a minute left.
• 25:41
  I just want to make sure people know your YouTube channel is Holly Pivick Official.
• 25:46
  You cover a ton of great topics.
• 25:49
  If you just click on her videos and look at some of the things she talks about, friends.
• 25:52
  But Holly, what do you have coming up?
• 25:54
  What's in the near future?
• 25:56
  What are you working on?
• 25:59
  Well, I've started a new segment on my podcast called On My Radar.
• 26:03
  And these are episodes I've been having fun doing where I'm just talking kind of more off the cuff and sharing things that have been on my heart, things I've been thinking about.
• 26:13
  And so I've really been enjoying that.
• 26:14
  And I'm working on another big project in the background.
• 26:17
  I'm hoping to be able to share with people soon.
• 26:21
  But, yeah, always it's a full time job.
• 26:26
  Well, thank you for your time again.
• 26:28
  I know you just got moved to North Carolina, not quite settled in yet, but next time we'll talk to you from your home studio.
• 26:36
  And we appreciate all that you do and just raising awareness about this.
• 26:40
  And people can follow you and just learn a lot more information than what we can cover in this short podcast.
• 26:45
  God bless you, Holly.
• 26:46
  Thanks for your time.
• 26:48
  Thank you.
• 26:48
  You too, David.
• 26:49
  All right.
• 26:50
  Friends, thank you so much for sharing and for praying for this ministry.
• 26:53
  I really appreciate it.
• 26:54
  We just pray that God's glorified the body of Christ is edified and informed to every podcast.
• 26:59
  So God bless you.
• 27:00
  And as always, keep speaking the truth about things that matter.
• 27:05
  See you next time.