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Living Radiantly After Burnout · Mental Health Matters

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_03: Hello and welcome to Mental Health Matters with me, Dr.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_03: Audrey Tang.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: And me, Judith Crozier.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_03: And this is the show where we talk about all things mental health and wellbeing, but we dive deep into the topics.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_03: We don't take um hot takes or quick fixes, we actually speak to experts about all of the wellness topics that we discuss on this show.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_03: And this week is very special because we are speaking with Dr.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_03: Sheeta Ajmani.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_03: Now she is zooming in to us from America, which is very exciting anyway.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_03: She does have a lived experience to share of burnout, and that's what we're going to be talking about.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_03: But in particular, she has now founded the Radiant Living Institute.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_03: What a great name.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_03: For busy or hyper-busy professionals.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: In other words, what do you do about your well-being when you've got no time?
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's amazing.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_03: And that's going to be such a great conversation.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_03: Can't wait.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_03: The the first question I have for you that is what do you do with for your well-being when you've got no time?
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_03: Uh nothing.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that would that that's the problem.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_03: That's the problem.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_03: Because the joke is we all need to take 20 minutes to meditate, and if you don't have time to meditate, you need to take an hour.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, yeah.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_03: And it's so true.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's true.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_03: Because actually, when you stop, you can often do all the stuff you need to do better because it's not this weird autopilot that we're going on.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: So what might you do if you could fit in something?
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what I used to do when I could fit in things was um go for a walk every day, go to the gym three times a week, and eat better, and because I had time to think about it.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what I did, and that's what I should still be able to do despite being busy.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_03: Let's just take the walk because gym, you have to go to somewhere.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_03: Eating also, there's a little bit of preparation that has to go into that.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_03: But the walk, you have dogs, yeah, and it's it's like if you've got children and and so on, you will have to walk them at some point to school or to wherever dogs you have to walk.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_03: Can you stack a well-being benefit on top of that?
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_03: Is there any way of when you're walking the dog, it can be part of a mindfulness walk, or it can be part of something where you're more aware of being present.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and actually, I think I do that anyway.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think I consciously do that anyway.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: Good.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: But we're we're well, it's it's a double-edged sword in in our village.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we've got a huge green space area which they want to build on, but in the meantime, the developers are being very kind of saying, you can walk on it, because we couldn't before.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: And it's beautiful.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what I do.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: I go there and you know, I notice the sky, I notice the trees, the grass, etc.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: I love spending time with my dog.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I do do that, but I don't do that at the moment because I'm working six days a week.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: But you are still walking the dog?
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_03: Or not very often, so that yeah, I'm missing other walk.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: And this it's an extra walk, so he's being walked by my husband, it's fine.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: And he gets two walks a day.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so it's not the dog that's yeah, that's suffering.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's not the dog suffering, it's it's me.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um so it's time management because I'm sure I could still do it.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_03: So this is what we're gonna be talking to Dr.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: Sheetal about because for a long time she actually dismissed all the well-being'um elements for herself, yeah, and hence she burnt out.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: But one of the key things I would say is when it comes to well-being benefits, try and stack them.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_03: If, for example, you think you haven't been seeing your friends, maybe walk the dog with friends or something like that.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_03: Try and stack the benefits.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_03: You're gonna do it anyway.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_03: Try and make it extra fun on top of that.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_03: And let's welcome Dr.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_03: Sheetel.
• 3:45
  unknown: Dr.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_03: Sheetel, first of all, thank you for joining us all the way from America.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_03: We are so grateful to you.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_03: And your your work, the Radiant Living Institute.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_03: We're just feeling so joyful and enlightened for this conversation.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but we're gonna start with a serious bit here, which is your own experience of burnout, which brought you to where you are today.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_03: Do you mind sharing what happened to you, please?
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, thank you so much for having me here.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's a pleasure to join you both uh and to share with your listeners today.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I am a physician by background, and I experienced my first bout of burnout actually in 2006.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: It was my first year out of medical school.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: I graduated medical school.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: I was doing my internship.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's the first year of really on-the-job training, and that was my first experience with burnout.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: And at that time, in 2006, burnout really wasn't talked about as much as it is now.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't really, I didn't even know burnout as a word or a phrase, and I didn't know anyone else who was experiencing and having as difficult a time with that experience as I was.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was my very first experience with it.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I leaned into and and navigated and found my own way through that, through trial and tribulation, through through much struggle.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: I found my way through that, and in many ways, that experience led to the work that I'm doing now in helping others through burnout.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, Audrey and Judith, that wasn't my only experience with with burnout.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: I experienced it multiple times over again throughout my career.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the most recent being in 2022.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, my goodness.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, and then did it present in the same way each time?
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_03: And what signs and symptoms perhaps did you ignore that we should be a bit mindful of?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: There were certainly similarities in how it presented, which is how I was able to recognize it when it presented itself in you know, subsequent years and subsequent episodes of burnout.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say that there, you know, it's a great question about whether there were signs that I ignored.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, when I think about it, there weren't signs that I ignored.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: I just didn't know what to do about it.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_03: Ah, that's a nice way of putting it in.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: I just didn't know what to do about it.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I recognized the signs.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: I recognized the impact, the toll that my career, the long work hours, the physical, mental, and emotional demands were having on my body, mind, and emotions.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I explored different tools as best as I could at a time when there really weren't many resources for burnout specifically.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I explored therapy.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: I explored practicing yoga and meditation and leaning into my spirituality, leaning into my community, my family, my friends.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: And yet, in many ways, I still felt very isolated in that experience because I didn't know anyone else going through it.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say, one, I didn't know what to do about it.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that I didn't know I didn't recognize the science, but I didn't know exactly what to do about it.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I went on an exploration myself.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: I would say, second, I also didn't know that I had other options.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: It was in many ways the demanding field of of medicine, just the way the healthcare system is set up that that was contributing to that.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: But I really didn't know that I had other options.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I did think of other options, it was almost like having to give myself permission to take some of those other options.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's so many contributing factors, and I think a lot of high-achieving individuals who I particularly work with may resonate with this idea of sunk cost fallacy.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so the amount, and that speaks to, you know, the amount of time, energy, effort, financial investment that went into becoming a physician to then so early in my career experience burnout and you know, the idea of while the idea of taking a break or leaving the field, those are certainly options in my mind at that time, I couldn't give myself permission to explore those options.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um I th I think a lot of people will will resonate with that as well, especially when you said, I didn't realize I it I didn't think I had any other options.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think, yeah, I think that's really relatable.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and a question uh that a lot of people will have as well: how do you implement self-care when you you don't have any time?
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: That is such a great question, and it's such a passion of mine to share this with others.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um because I was in situations where I really didn't have very time.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: I had almost I talk about it as almost having negative time because as a physician, there were many days that I was double booked, so expected to see two patients within the same exact at the same exact time.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: So there were many days that I actually had negative time on my schedule.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so I had to figure out ways to be able to show up fully for each one of my patients in each one of my families because to me, they all deserve the same level of attention and presence from me as their physician.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so I had to find those moments within my day where I could take a few deep breaths as I my hand went to the door handle to go into the next patient room, to actually intentionally close my office door for just five minutes to actually eat my lunch, knowing that if I am nourished, I will be able to best serve my patients for the rest of the afternoon.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so it it really is, and I'll give you some more examples with clients that I've worked with and some things that some ways that they've been able to implement self-care into their lives.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: But before I do that, just a quick definition.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: One of my favorite definitions of self-care, it's from the Oxford Dictionary, and it's a practice of taking an active role and protecting one's own well-being.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so, one, I want to emphasize that it's a practice.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then two, that it requires an playing an active role.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: And active doesn't mean a lot of time, but it does mean awareness and intention.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, some examples of how some of my clients have have been able to integrate self-care into their busy lives is one, replacing listening to the news in the on their morning commute by listening to an inspiring podcast that they've teed up the night before.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: Or while brushing their teeth, using that as a time to, within their mind, practice gratitude and think about all that they're grateful for for the day, or reciting affirmations.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: So all of these are things that you're not adding anything else to your schedule, you're simply bringing more intention and awareness to those activities.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that sounds stacking the benefits back to this.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: So it and that sounds it's um just sensible, isn't it?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you're brushing your teeth anyway.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you're doing that anyway.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: So you might as well do something for yourself while you're doing it.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, I love that.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so how do you then set boundaries to people who who say, Oh, it's okay, just just don't worry about doing yoga today if you haven't got the time.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know, how how do you deal with that?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, boundaries is another topic that I am so passionate about.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's and it's not easy, but realizing that boundaries only work if you follow through on them.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, they only work if you follow through on them.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'll often describe it as think of if you build a fence in your yard.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that fence will only, if you keep the door open, if that fence has a gate and you keep that door open 24-7, then the fence is not gonna work.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: Good analogy.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so realizing that anyone else's, you know, uh the other person's reaction to your boundaries is a reflection of them, not of you.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it does not mean that your boundary is not valid.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: So this also comes to realizing that you are worthy of setting these boundaries to protect your well-being.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_03: That's a beautiful thing to say, and a beautiful reminder.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_03: We are keeping you, Dr.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_03: Sheetel.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_03: We will be back just after a clip from Dr.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_03: Gus Travis.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: We live in a world that glorifies speed, quick results, fast transformations, instant success.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: But real lasting change takes time.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: And rushing the process often leads to burnout or giving up entirely.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: So if you feel like you've like you're behind, you're not.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: You're on your own path.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Going slower doesn't mean you're falling or failing.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: It often means that you're building something sustainable.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: So the takeaway is this respect your pace, trust your process.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because slow progress is still progress.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome back to Mental Health Matters.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_03: We are having a really important discussion and reminder about looking after our well-being when we feel like we have no time.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes we absolutely are chock a block in our calendars, but there are always tiny spaces for just getting in touch with ourselves.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_03: But you are absolutely right, Dr.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: Jutel.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_03: It has to be active and conscious and intentional and all of those things.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, okay, this one's a fun question for you.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um, what is the difference between actually processing our feelings and just suppressing them?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_03: I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, and then never actually going back to check on am I really fun?
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's so, first of all, it's so easy to do that in our modern day and age.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: So if anyone listening is saying, ooh, I think I'm guilty of that, one, practice compassion with yourself, be gentle with yourself, because that is so easy to do these days in our like really busy hustle-bustle lives, to just keep moving, thinking, I'll deal with this later.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: However, what happens is if we don't ever go back to dealing with that or deal with it in the moment and process it in the moment, or at least even acknowledge it in the moment, is that it will come back and it will often come back in ways that you would rather it not.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: That could be either emotionally in your relationships becoming irritable or snappy with your loved ones.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: It could show up in your physical body as things like anxiety, panic attacks, insomnia, pain.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: So emotions that word emotions comes from Latin emovere, which means to move out.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: Emotions are meant to move out and move through us.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: And when they don't, they can get stuck in our body and show up and present themselves in these different ways.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: So it's so important to find those ways to begin to process what you're feeling rather than suppressing it, pushing it down, trying to ignore it or trying to numb it out.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_03: And and actually, on and that's so true, but are there some people who are actually genuinely fine?
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_03: They seem to have a handle on their well-being.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_03: They seem to be able to do all those things.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_03: Because in many ways, I think I, because I've been working in this field now for over 15 years, I've got a handle on it, and I know when I'm stressed, and I know when I'm acting out, and I I go back and I process all those things.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_03: But I think to all intents and purposes, I'm fine.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_03: So what what what am I doing?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_03: What are these people doing?
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's such a great question.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I think to one extent, it depends on what fine means to you and how you define that.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: I do believe that we all go through different seasons of our lives.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: So some seasons may be more challenging, some seasons we may need to dive into and explore different types of self-care and well-being practices than other seasons of our lives.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think of, you know, when I think of being actually fine, I think that that doesn't mean that challenges don't arise.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: It means that for me, um, and and sort of my personal version of living radiantly is that the challenges will come.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: However, I even in the midst of those challenges, I know that I have this anchor, this anchor within me that will be able to stand back up, that will be able to embrace and acknowledge that yes, this is a challenging season in life.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: And along with challenging seasons of life, there are also joyful, radiant, beautiful, touching moments of life as well, and that that is all part of the experience of life.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, being actually fine is not that there's no problems that come up, not that there's no stressful, quote unquote stressful moments.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: However, it's recognizing that that is all part of the spectrum of life and embracing and accepting the moment for what it is.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's beautiful.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: I love that, having an anchor.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: So even if something is challenging, but if you feel anchored, then you can do yeah, I love that.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: That's a really lovely way to put it.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_03: Just before your next question, I know just in terms of what I say by being fine, is actually I'm okay.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_03: We say a lot, oh, it's it's um not okay to not be okay.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_03: But it is okay to be okay.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, yeah.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_03: We don't need to go through life every day going, woo it's the best day of my life.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_03: You know, in that voice, obviously, because that's always it's okay being okay and just travelling along like that sometimes.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'd remember that really.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: You can't be happy all the time.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'd rather just have contentment, you know.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: It might be less exciting, but it's it's surely what everyone strives for, yeah.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: Just to just to have that every day would be lovely.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: Clearly, I don't.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so what are what would you say that people commonly do to cover up their true feelings?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe laughing if they're anxious or embarrassed or whatever.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if we're trying to help someone who's not okay, what should we look for?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, first of all, kind of on the individual level, in terms of what people may be doing to to to cover up, there's so many different things.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: They could cover up with laughter, it could cover up with substances, right?
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: Cover up with um emotional eating.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of my clients actually cover up with just working harder.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I do diving even deeper into their work.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: Now, in terms of being a person who is trying to identify these signs and those around you, I think there rather than guessing, because particularly many of my clients who are very high-achieving professionals, we are really good at covering it up.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: We can be really good at covering it up until it reaches later stages of impacting us that it will actually become visible to others.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: So rather than trying to sort of guess or or look for those signals, what I would rather we do, what I would like to see in our society, is really normalizing the conversation.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe it's part of every, you know, mid-year review or um one-on-one meetings in your organization to just ask about it.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Just normalizing that as being part of the conversation or with your friends, you know, what's something challenging you're going through right now?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: How are you coping with that?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, whether in professional or personal settings, normalizing that conversation around it.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: I like that.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: Actively as well.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_03: Again, it's that active, conscious, intentional that's it.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: Asking someone how they are and then asking them again, you know, how actually are you?
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_03: But that I think what it also what you're saying is to not maybe use the how are you, but it's it's that active prompt.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_03: Is there anything challenging you're going through?
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_03: How are you doing it?
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_03: How are you managing it?
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_03: It it's that intentionality that's so important.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: And and that and it also comes across as very genuine as well if you're asking it that way.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I really like that.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: So so what if somebody um if you think someone's in a situation that may be harder to um process than others and might need a bit more than a well-being solution, for example.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, and that very well can happen.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so, one realizing that again, as I mentioned before, we all navigate different seasons of our lives.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: And what practicing self care looks like for us or focusing on our well being during different seasons can change.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: We're all unique beings, we're all navigating very unique situations, and so we have unique needs and.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Those situations.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: So while one challenging season, certain well-being practices, um, such as let's just say meditation or going to the gym might be helpful during another challenging season, you may be trying those and saying, Hey, I need something more.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you do need professional support, therapy, coaching, medications, and realize and giving yourself going back to my experience with the first question that we started with of giving yourself permission to do that.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: Giving yourself permission that that is okay.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: That does not mean that there's anything wrong with you.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's simply you're navigating a challenging season of life, and what you need during different challenging seasons of your life may look and feel different.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so being open to that self-care may look like bubble baths, yoga classes, going to the gym.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: It may look like going to therapy, working with a coach, talking to your physician about medications.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: It may look like making a career pivot or setting really firm boundaries in your relationships or with your job.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_03: So important to recognize that it's courses for courses.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: You need to have the right solution to the right problem.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_03: And if you're trying to treat the same thing, or rather trying to treat different things with the same solution, it's not gonna work for us.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_03: Dr.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_03: Cheetel, we're keeping you, and we'll be back just after some tips from Dr.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_03: Gus Chavez.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: One of the biggest traps in weight loss and in life is all or nothing thinking.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: I eat something unhealthy, so the day is ruined.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I missed a workout, so I'll start again next week.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: Sound familiar?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: This this mindset turns small moments into full derailments.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: But progress doesn't require perfection, it requires consistency.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: A single choice doesn't define your journey, but your next choice does.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: So instead of saying I've messed it up, try this.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: What's the next best decision I can make right now?
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because success isn't built on perfect days, it's built on imperfect days handled well.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_03: Now, Dr.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_03: Sheetal, you are the founder of the Radiant Living Institute.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_03: It's such a beautiful name, a beautiful way of life.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the ways that we can live radiantly is to not feel like an imposter in our own lives.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um, can you tell us a little bit about your experiences with imposter phenomenon and how imposter phenomenon can affect well-being, even though things on the surface look like they're going perfectly well?
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: Imposter phenomenon is just a brief description of what that is.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: So, first of all, it's not an actual clinical diagnosis, it's a description of something that many of us can experience, and that is this experience of pervasive feelings of self-doubt, despite verifiable objective evidence to the contrary of our success.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: And this disproportionately impacts um people who are already high achieving, people who work in high stakes, high pressure situations, women and underrepresented groups.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: So those four things, I check all of those boxes.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: So when you ask about my own experience with imposter syndrome, yes, um, I have experienced imposter phenomenon, particularly early on in my career in medicine.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, I experienced I described to you that my most recent episode of burnout was in 2022.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: And actually that's when I decided to step away from practicing clinical medicine and really leaning into my work here with Radiant, um, with my company, Radiant Living Institute.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, even during that transition, so I like to always describe that impostor phenomenon, it's not something that's gonna necessarily go away and never come back.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: As we shift into different experiences in our life.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: So as I was shifting into full-time entrepreneurship, yes, I experienced that many of those feelings again of that impostor phenomenon.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, often for for many of us, as humans in general, we we we are generally looking for um progress, growth opportunities.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: And even if we're not looking for it, to tell you the truth, it's gonna come to us because that's simply the nature of life, different challenges, different situations.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so as we face different situations, we may experience these features of imposter phenomenon again.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_03: That's important to recognize because it isn't a case of, oh, I've dealt with it because I've left that job.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's something almost that we carry with us.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_03: Which relates to my next question because we have some narratives that tend to go on in our heads.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_03: What are some of those common narratives that people who are dealing with imposter phenomena tend to tell themselves?
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, with the description that I provided of imposter syndrome earlier, it was these pervasive feelings of self-doubt despite this objective evidence of success.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so that really relates to this, a big part of it relates to this inability to internalize our success.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so one of those narratives that can come up is attributing your success to factors outside of yourself.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: What do I mean by that?
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: That could be, let's say you worked really hard on a project and the outcome was exactly what you were hoping for.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: Let's say someone congratulates you on that and you may say, Oh, the stars were just aligned in my favor that day.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so attributing that success to factors outside of ourselves.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a narrative that that can continue to feed into it.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: Another narrative can be that I need to work harder than everyone else to achieve these same goals.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: So when we experience this imposter phenomenon, and your your question earlier was about how this can impact our well-being, it can lead us to feel like we need to work so much harder, put in more time, put in more energy, put in more effort, stay up all hours of the night to get that project done, to get it to this level of quote unquote perfection than others.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so that can be some of that narrative.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, I'll be found out.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, I'll be found out that I'm not, quote unquote, as perfect or um, you know, as quote unquote successful as I would like to appear to be.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, very interesting.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so when you're working with somebody who might have imposter phenomenon, what does real progress look like?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, especially in terms of building their confidence?
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: So what I like to see when I'm working with my clients with imposter phenomenon is that it does not define them.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: That you're still able to move through the world, move through your life with confidence and realizing that it doesn't define you, not letting it hold you back.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, a big factor, I believe, that contributes to imposter phenomenon is this sense of belonging that we all seek as humans.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: And Brene Brown, I I often will use this definition from Brene Brown of um that true belonging occurs when we show our authentic imperfect selves to the world.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: And with imposter phenomena and all the factors and characteristics that go into impostor phenomenon, we are seeking belonging.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: However, we are thinking that to achieve that belonging, we have to demonstrate quote unquote perfection, this perfect product.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: However, true belonging, true belonging occurs when we show up as our authentic, imperfect self.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: So one thing I do in my work with clients is I give themselves, you know, work on giving themselves permission to demonstrate some vulnerability in in their workplaces or in their personal relationships as well.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: Of for example, hey, I am navigating this challenging season in my life.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: I just wanted to kind of set set some context and share that with you.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, the impact that that might have on whether that's your work or something that you're working on in your personal life.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I just wanted to emphasize that, but really, sort of the the core in terms of when I'm working with someone in addressing imposter syndrome is I work on not trying to overcome it, but to address it and not let it define them to continue to move forward, even knowing that this part might exist.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, that that's really interesting.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's very powerful.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, it is, yeah.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_03: Because so much is about suppression and removal of and it is about saying, no, no, no, this is maybe part of who we are, and maybe part of who everybody is in a different way, shape, or form.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_03: How do I work with that?
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's that that is a lot more powerful.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: It is you're working with it and still acknowledging that it's there rather than trying to beat it.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, thank you.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: This has been such an interesting discussion, and I I love the sound of your um institute.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: It sounds amazing, yeah.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna look into that.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: So on that note, where can we find out more about you and what you do?
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I would love to connect with anyone who's interested.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, radiant Living Institute.com is my website.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: Feel free to reach out.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: Anyone who's listening, I have a contact page there.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: I read and reply to all messages myself.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: So please feel free to reach out to me directly there.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: I also have a podcast called Essential Self-Care.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, dive into a lot of similar topics that we talked about today.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: And when you visit my website, you can also download a free guide.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's the Radiant Living Starter Guide.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: So that's just a great place to get started as well on your own journey.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_03: Perfect.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_03: Amazing.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_03: And we will head over to Test the Trend.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_03: This week on Test the Trend, I want you to think about how those unconscious thoughts or those critical inner voices and the things that you're saying to yourself in your head might play out in real life, and then think about what we can do about them.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_03: So I want you to think about your career, and I want you to ask yourself, what story am I telling myself about my career?
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_03: Do you think, you know, I've gone as far as I can go, I don't like what I'm doing, I'm too good to be here, or I want to do this but I'm afraid.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_03: What is that thought that you're holding?
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_03: The next question is when you have that thought, what is the evidence that either supports or contradicts that thought?
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_03: Because a lot of the time we may have thoughts about things.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I'm not good enough, I can't do it, but actually, when we look at the evidence, it's not there to support that.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, it might even contradict that we're not good enough because we might have examples of previous achievements.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_03: So think about those two things.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_03: What thought am I telling myself?
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_03: What is my internal narrative?
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_03: But what is the evidence that I have to support or contradict it?
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_03: And the next thing I want you to do is make an active conscious choice to deal with it.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_03: Because instead of thinking I have no confidence, you can think, well, actually, I'm choosing to think I have no confidence and therefore I'm not going to put myself forward.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_03: But if you're thinking I have no confidence, you might decide I'm choosing to work with that and improve on the skills that I don't believe I have the confidence to do.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_03: So if you take away habit and automation, you will get to a point where you can actually actively choose your next steps.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_03: That's what moves us forward.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_03: That was such a lovely conversation.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: So lovely.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_03: So peaceful, yeah, so calming.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: Very, very calming.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I I think I can listen to her speaking all day.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's like the embodiment of well-being.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_03: What it needs to look like.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly, and I'm definitely gonna find Dr.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_02: Sheetel's um podcast.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: So I can listen.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_03: So if we go back now to what we were saying at the start of the show, when you have no time, what do you do?
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_03: What will you do now?
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: Ah, so interesting.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's it's actually quite interesting because this week uh has has i i've had to work differently at home, which has meant I haven't had the same amount of time to do what I would I would what I would normally do.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I so I've had to work a bit smarter, and actually now I can see what that looks like in practice because I've had to do it for various reasons.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um I that in itself is a well-being thing.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I'm not sitting there from morning to night just not moving off my desk.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_02: So now I know what to do differently.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: I can go back to doing a walk, and it's not exactly the stacking that you were talking about, but I can see how I can now fit fit different things in.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_03: To do that.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_03: I think this is the thing.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_03: We talk a lot about nervous systems and habits and automation and so on.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_03: And whether whether we're talking about tricking your nervous system, it is sometimes about doing things differently, reminding yourself it doesn't have to be this way.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_03: This is not the only way of working.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I think what listening to Dr.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: Sheet out, all it got got it kind of fed into what because I was thinking, oh, so, and then once you've got made a tiny bit of space to do one well-being action, then that makes you feel better, and then you think, oh, I can do that differently, and then I can put more.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a it's a not a vicious circle, but it's like um something that exactly, and it evolves, and yeah, it one the the the good things impact on the next good thing, and which makes you feel better and want to do another good thing.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_03: Well, on that very peaceful note, from all of us here at Mental Health Matters, have a healthy week.