Latest / Divorce Coaches Academy / The Work Before the Work: What It Takes to Build a Divorce Coaching Practice
Transcript
- Tracy Callahan: Welcome back to Divorce Coaches Academy Podcast. I'm Tracy. And I recently had the honor of learning from Dr. Vivian Ming as part of Conversations That Contribute, a remarkable series organized by our colleague and DCA mentor, Carolyn Jacobs. Carolyn brings such extraordinary thinkers into conversations designed to challenge and inspire us. While using each gathering to support non-for-profit organizations helping children Karen: Yeah. Tracy Callahan: and families navigate conflict. It is such a wonderful combination of meaningful learning and generous contribution and real impact. And I really want to thank her for that. And I will share information about her series in the show notes. But there's a reason why I'm mentioning that, because it really inspired me for today's conversation. During her presentation, Dr. Ming explored this idea of being a fanatic, right? Someone so deeply connected to the purpose of their work that they continue pursuing it, not simply because of external incentives or the promise of an immediate reward, but because the work itself matters. And that idea stayed with me. When we hear the word fanatic, We may think of someone who's excessive or extreme, but in this context, it was about something deeper, being so connected to the purpose of your work that you remain willing to pursue it before the results fully reflect the effort you are putting into it. And of course, I immediately thought about all of our newly certified divorce coaches who are out there busting their asses to build their practices. They're networking, they're introducing themselves to attorneys, mediators, therapists, financial professionals, community organizations. They are learning how to explain the value of the profession that many people still don't fully understand. They're creating content, attending events, following up, building relationships, and pushing themselves far beyond what may feel comfortable or familiar. At the same time, they are simultaneously continuing to strengthen their professional skills so that when a client does call, they are prepared to provide the highest quality of service as dispute resolution specialists. And we need to hear from these professionals. We often hear practice building stories after someone has filled the calendar, established a referral network, and figured out what works. Those stories can certainly inspire us, but they can also make success appear far more linear than it really is. I believe there is tremendous value in hearing from someone who is building right now, someone navigating that uncertainty, trying different approaches, questioning what works, celebrating gradual progress and continuing to still show up. So that's the conversation we're having today. And I'm super excited to welcome my guest, Karen Yurak, founder of White Oak Divorce Coaching, a North Carolina-based practice that she launched just recently in February of 2026, after more than 19 years of working as a family law paralegal. Karen understands divorce from both a professional and personal experience. She has been through divorce herself, is a mother of two, and added two stepchildren to her family after remarrying. Nearly two decades of working closely with divorcing clients and family law attorneys showed her that clients needed more than legal support. That understanding led Karen to become a DCA certified ADR divorce coach and ultimately to take the leap into entrepreneurship of building her practice. Today she Karen: That's Tracy Callahan: is turning her experience into a business focused on helping people navigate divorce with greater clarity. preparation and intention. But our conversation today is really about what happens after the certification, when you have to step outside of your comfort zone, make yourself visible, create meaningful professional relationships, and build a practice from the ground up. So Karen, I would love to welcome you to Divorce Coaches Academy podcast. Karen: Thank you, Tracy. So happy to be here today. Tracy Callahan: excellent. All right. So we talked about it, right? You brought more than 19 years of experience in family law into this profession. But becoming certified and building a business are two very different undertakings, right? So when did you decide that you were not only going to become a divorce coach, but actually build a practice of your own? And kind Karen: Yeah. Tracy Callahan: of what did you imagine that process to look like? Karen: You know, I like you said, 19 years is a family law paralegal gives you a real insight on that divorce world. And I kept feeling something was missing. I kept Tracy Callahan: Mm. Karen: feeling that our clients were getting the legal advice they needed, they were getting the financial advice they were needing, they were getting, you know, the mediation preparation, all that. However, there was something missing. There was something I call it the human or personal side of divorce that was that was not there. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. So so did you always intend did were you initially thinking you're gonna take these skills and go into a law firm or or were you like, Yeah, I'm gonna build this independent practice on my own? Karen: Well, I started in the law firm and then realized there was such a thing as a divorce coach. I had never heard of it. If I had I went through my own divorce, didn't know it was there. Wish I had. Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Karen: and when I came across it, I felt like what a great transition into divorce coaching because I've sat on that other side of the table myself. I've, you know, I've helped people Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Karen: through it. I saw what was missing. I saw There was no space for them to all the things in their head. Where were who was sorting that out with them? You Tracy Callahan: Right. Mm-hmm. Karen: know, their friends are great. That's, you know, fantastic, but there was just something else. So I immediately changed kind of my thought process and said, there's more I can do helping people go through the divorce. And that was when I got my certification. Tracy Callahan: Wonderful. So since launching White Oak Divorce Coaching, what has surprised you most about the reality of building a practice? Karen: I I would have to say, you know, the I was comfortable in being a paralegal, 19 years, right? You know what you're doing. I could sell that law firm, I could sell that attorney. All of a sudden now I'm selling myself. And and and that was uncomfortable for me. That was an uncomfortable space. And you know, we learn about having this growth mindset and everything. And I had to really hone in on that and practice that because selling myself and my business that I never thought I would ever have, you know, it was so foreign, so foreign to me. So it Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Karen: was it was definitely the whole putting yourself out there and and you know too, Tracy, divorce coaching is not common, common knowledge or the title. in a lot of people's vocabulary when it comes to talking about divorce. So it was Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Karen: also this, you know, I now have to explain what divorce coaching is. Not only Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Karen: what I'm doing, but what is the whole grand scheme of this thing. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, it's it's kind of a double whammy, right? So Karen: Yeah, right. Tracy Callahan: not only do I have to sell this, I have to educate people about even what I'm selling. It's not like, I'm selling, you know, this new Karen: Great. Tracy Callahan: shiny object, right? That people are familiar with. This is I still think a shiny object, but but most people don't understand it. So it's a sort of twofold process. Yeah. Karen: Most people don't understand it. Yeah, it's a new concept. And when you explain it, of course it's my gosh, I didn't know that was something out there, you know. And then it starts the ball rolling and makes that networking a little bit easier. But it's that, you know, divorce has such a negative feel to it. So Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Karen: when you bring it up, everybody kind of goes, wait, what? So you have to like Make it shiny like you said, and no no, this Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Karen: is a really good thing for divorces. Tracy Callahan: A hundred percent, right? So it's that combination of of educating consumers to even recognize and once that education happens, it resonates with a lot of people, even though, yes, not a lot of people are walking around wanting to publicly engage in conversations about divorce. it's a very private experience for a lot of people. So often not shared. I remember When I was first starting my practice as a divorce coach, I was already practicing as a a family dispute resolution specialist as a mediator. And I created, you know, my my Facebook page. This was back, we didn't have like Twitter and Insta and TikTok back then. But I created a Facebook page and I invited my friends, right, who are already in my friend world on my personal Facebook page to follow me on my business page. I can't even tell you how many people did not follow me. So when I would see them, they would have to, they felt this need to explain themselves. Tracy, Tracy, I just want to let you know I think what you're doing is really cool. I just have no interest in liking your page because I don't want people to think that I'm getting divorced or I don't want my spouse to think that I am interested in divorce by liking Karen: Yes. Tracy Callahan: your page or commenting on your page. I'm like, dude, what? But similar, right? So there's there's Karen: Yeah. Tracy Callahan: a lot of factors that play into that. Karen: Yeah. My I mean, it's the same thing. Some of my closest coworkers are like, I don't know. You know, and I'm like, Where are you? You're supposed to be the ones who support me. I'm reaching out to strangers and they're, you know, getting on board Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Karen: with this. Where are you? So yeah, that's been that's been difficult. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, yeah, it's certainly and and it's was an unexpected challenge, I thought for myself. So you described to me, right, yourself as pounding the pavement pavement. And I love that phrase because I think it captures the effort required before most people see the results, right? Kind Karen: Yeah. Tracy Callahan: of talking about this idea of fanatics. So what is pounding the pavement actually look like for you, right? Where are you? Your time? What are you doing? What does this look like to create Karen: Yeah. Tracy Callahan: awareness and build those relationships? Karen: So I would say like a typical, you know, week or whatever is going to include, like you said, reaching out to attorneys and mediators and financial professionals. I'm even reaching out to HR people. I am inner people who are interfacing with those getting a divorce, your nail techs, the hairstylists, the bartenders. I mean, I'm pretty much talking to anybody who will listen at this point and who run into people. who are going through a divorce or talking about, thinking about going through divorce. I might have coffee with someone, I might have a Zoom chat or attend a networking event. I've even dropped off little goodie bags with business cards to places, you know, Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Karen: emailing referrals, creating content, watching DCA podcasts, you know, educating myself. It Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Karen: it never seems to stop. The learning never seems to stop. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, and Karen is an avid participant in our case consultation, which I also believe is such a necessary component when one's building Karen: Yeah. Tracy Callahan: that practice because it's hard. Right. I I this delusion, I think, and I don't want to to say that in the fact that I think it should be a barrier for people entering this field because we're seeing lots of different formations, if you will, or opportunities for divorce coaches now also within law practice or l in limited scope practices or creating these sort of referral networks, if you will, within in different organizations. But there is a a a a challenge, right? That there people believe that okay, well I got certified and I made this really cute website and I've got the skills and I got the strengths. And and everybody's gonna come. And sometimes it just doesn't work like that. It takes perseverance and commitment. And one of the things that I love about your commitment that you're doing is staying connected to a professional community. And even if you're not presenting cases, you're learning from cases, while also crowdsourcing a lot of these things that people did experience when they built their own practice and what it took to overcome them. Because I believe that the field of divorce coaching, especially for talented, highly qualified divorce coaches, trained and and credentialed, often don't stick around because it does take some work. It doesn't happen overnight, but it can and does happen with continued effort. So part of that I think what I'm hearing from you is right, hitting the pounding the pavement is sort of being relentless, if you will, in in hitting the streets and doing this. Karen: It is and it's thinking outside the box. Like I said, like the nail techs and stuff. There's people Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Karen: are going through divorce. Somebody always knows somebody going through divorce. And it's Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Karen: getting it out there. And so hoping that when their friend does come get their nails done and she says, you know, I'm over this, I'm done, then the person I connected with says, Hey, call Karen. You know, have you heard of a div, you know? Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Yeah. Simple as that. Call Karen. Yeah. Karen: I'll carry and and it's it is a lot of work. It's way more work than I ever thought it would be. I don't even know if I knew how much work it is. And and it's that uncomfortableness of, you know, reaching out to complete strangers and just seeing if they'll have a conversation with you. And there's a lot of, you know, you can have all these conversations and you can have, you know, referrals and all that, and it can get really quiet. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Karen: And that and that quiet space is where you staming the right thing? Is this and like you're talking about where I think people tend to go, forget it. And Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Karen: and I think you have to push through that and and use that quiet space effectively. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, I love that. So of everything you've tried, right, and your experience, what do you think has helped you create genuine connections, right? Rather than simply collecting contacts? Because I do think also there is this trap that a lot of new coaches get into where they spend a tremendous amount of of networking, but they're just collecting these contacts and and they're not really delivering results because of that lack of that connection, if you will, that trust like no factor that I think people need to have to really be able to then extend as a referral source. Karen: Yeah, I think it goes past, you know, having someone on your LinkedIn page and connecting that way. I think it's actually reaching back out and actually making an effort to get to know them and and what they provide. So then they become interested also in what you provide. And I've had so many interesting conversations and met so many different interesting people of things that I didn't even know was out there. And And and I use it as a way to also create a referral source for my clients. You know, Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Karen: it it it works both ways. And so I think it's a lot of follow-up conversations. It's not just, you know, let's be friends. It's let's be friends and talk about our common, you know, goal, which is helping people through this. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, shared interests and meaning always us together, right? So you kind of mentioned this before that you were very good at selling the law firm that you worked for, but not so so comfortable with doing that for yourself, right? A lot of people who get trained and certified as divorce coaches are super comfortable in supporting clients, but much less. comfortable in promoting themselves and building a practice, a successful practice with continued client engagement requires both. So how did you cross over that bridge? How did you push past your your uncomfort zone? I don't know if that's a word. Karen: Yeah. Tracy Callahan: out of your comfort zone to to be able to do that. to to expand your own mindset and perspective there. Karen: I I think it's getting the little the little gifts throughout it. So it is somebody when you post something actually commenting on your post and starting a conversation about it. it's actually getting a referral. Someone trusted me enough from what I have told them to send me a client. It's it's those little moments. It's also Having the people that you're working with, you know, halfway through a session take a deep breath. It's like Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Karen: they first were holding their breath and then all of a sudden they felt comfortable enough working with you that they just kind of exhaled. It's those little moments that I think keep me going and knowing that it's making a difference for somebody. It it it's Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Karen: actually working. That's Tracy Callahan: Yes. Karen: the stuff that keeps me going. Tracy Callahan: I love that. So was there anything that initially felt intimidating that now feels more natural through just doing it repetition? Karen: Yeah, the networking. A hundred percent Tracy Callahan: Networking. Karen: the networking. I I dare to say I almost enjoy it now. It's become something because I am. I'm learning from it myself. It's not just, you know, selling Tracy Callahan: Rowling. Karen: the business and and telling everybody, screaming from the rooftops, what divorce coaching and how purposeful it is. I'm gaining something from it too. And so I'm it's kind of. Now fun, I would say. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, I I love that. It is fun, right? And and Karen: Yeah, yeah. Tracy Callahan: and sometimes it's exhausting, right? But it it certainly can be fun and finding that connection piece. I mean, I just a quick side story talking about, you know, networking. I don't do a lot of in-person stuff because of all the work that I do at DCA and my practice that I built. in Florida is kind of self sustaining. So I don't really spend much time in in these networking environments just because I don't have time. But I've recently, as many of you know, have added parenting coordination to the list of things that I do. And and I I've always done co parenting coaching, but court appointed parenting coordination has been a new thing. So I got invited to a small little group up in the courthouse in Stewart, which is our our judicial district for Martin County. And I live in Palm Beach County. and I was like, you know, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. It's it's like lunch with a judge. And there was eight of us and it was amazing. I forgot how much I really enjoy engaging and talking and connecting. And it was the weirdest thing ever. That, well, not weird, but it it surprised me and kind of made me feel good. Was somebody's like, You're Tracy Callahan? Are you are you Tracy Callahan of Divorce Coaches Academy? And I'm like, Yes. And she goes, I listen to your podcast all the time. And I was like, What? It was just so random. It wasn't that Karen: Mm. Tracy Callahan: random. I mean, this was a dispute resolution specialist and lots of dispute resolution specialists listen to us, but I've never had somebody who I haven't met who didn't know me through that. area who knew me in the space of my private practice work in association with the work that I do at Divorce Coaches Academy. So it does feel good, right? When you Karen: Does Tracy Callahan: can connect and and share and share ideas. I it's one of the things that why I even value case consultation so much is because I get to learn from What everybody else is experiencing. And it creates opportunities for me and not only how we respond, our own messaging, course development, etc. So that kind of brings me back to this idea of messaging, right? Communicating that value, educating. And I think as as we often share with a lot of new coaches as well as seasoned coaches is finding that space to be able to demonstrate value to the person who you're messaging, right? Because the value to an attorney in the work of doing with a divorce coach is very different than the value to say a prospective client who may be looking at or exploring the idea of divorce. So, how do you feel that that? plays into the work that you're doing in your practice building and and the the comfort level in messaging, if you will. Karen: You know, I think it's Tracy, one of those things that the more you practice, the better you get at it. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Karen: I feel like I stumbled a lot in the very beginning of what is it I'm trying to say? What feels natural, you know, coming out when you know I'm trying to talk about the value. And I think the more you do it and the more you actually work with a client. you start to get it's a natural feeling all of a sudden of how to talk about the value and and and the purpose of divorce coaching because you're seeing it happen and Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Karen: and you're you're living it and you're watching someone benefit from the service you're doing. And so the value you think One of the things you have to do is make sure they first understand when you're talking to people, what is divorce coaching? It's not therapy, it's not legal advice, you know, all that. And then they kind of scratch their head and go, then what is it? And that's the beauty part of when you dive into, you Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Karen: know, preparing people for these difficult conversations or, you know, organizing their thoughts because they've got a million of them, or, you know, what's the next step you're gonna take? You know, Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Karen: that's That's the value of it is seeing seeing that put into place. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. So moving from the the theoretical, if you will, to the actual value experienced by clients and being able to more articulately translate that because you've seen it and know Karen: Yes. Tracy Callahan: it's real. I love that. I I just want to circle back a little. You talked about right, those quiet moments, those quieter periods, Karen: Yeah. Tracy Callahan: right? When you know you're putting in the effort, but the results haven't really caught up yet. What do you what are you doing to keep yourself engaged, right? When there's sort of those loud noises or voices in your head, I think you said when you're sleeping. Well Karen: Yeah, yeah. Tracy Callahan: What w what what is your strategy there? Are you listening Karen: Well Tracy Callahan: to their voices? Are you trying to shut the voices down? What are the voices telling you, Karen? Karen: You know, you the voices are all, you know, I do a lot of self-talk. and and I am really practicing patience because Tracy Callahan: Mm. Karen: I think in this world today, everything is instant, everything is fast, and including divorce, you know, you have to make a decision, you have to do and and I'm trying to slow it down a little bit in my head and and being patient and realizing. I started this not having a huge referral base, not having, you know, any idea of how to run a business and taking a moment and going, wow, seven months ago, look how far I've come, look at who I've met, look at who I've helped, you know. It's it's definitely, you know, opening yourself up to slowing down and and celebrating the little wins that that you have. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. I I I think it's so significant because what I'm hearing you also say in these moments is reflecting on what is success for you, right? So I think it's easy to measure success of a new practice only by clients, right? The number Karen: Right. Tracy Callahan: of clients, the amount of revenue it generates. And of course, of course, financial sustainability absolutely matters. I tell people this all the time. You didn't come into this, although a lot of us came in for a lot of altruistic reasons and that we're highly empathetic individuals and want to support people. We all still do need to pay bills and earn a living and make a living. And and yes, you can do that successfully in in building a divorce coaching practice, but it takes time. So financial sustainability absolutely matters, but it's not always the first evidence that what you're building, that foundation is taking shape. So what is building success or or signs of progress for you that you might have that you might be really trying to recognize in those moments of of quiet and those self talk. How are you measuring success and and looking at progress? Karen: I'd be lying if I said I wasn't measuring it with how many current clients do I have or how Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Karen: many referrals are coming. And I think, you know, in this business, it's a relationship type business, right? People are not always going to act immediately. I tell people all the time, just because you decided you're going to get a divorce doesn't mean you have to act on it immediately. You might want to plan. So in these quiet moments, It it's that it's I've reached out to these people, I'm continuing to reach out to people, and you may not see the results until six months when that person finally decides, yeah, I you know, I'm ready to to start this, I need this. This divorce coaching is not an instant, you know, I talk to somebody and they hire you. And and so in those quiet moments, you have to reflect back and remember. who you're working with and where these clients are coming from, and that it's it it for them too, it's not an instant, yes, I need you. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Yeah. That reminder of this is why I'm doing this. Karen: Yeah, yeah. And the patience that that's Tracy Callahan: So we yeah. Yeah. Karen: needed to do it. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, so you know, this sort of returns me back to, you know, Dr. Ming's idea of being a fanatic, right? It does not mean that money is unimportant or that divorce coaches should give away their services for free. Absolutely not. we should be building financially sustainable practices. But divorce coaching is skilled professional work and it should be valued accordingly. Finances matter, but they're not always immediate. And and something deeper, that purpose, that that thing that holds us to continue to say, I see the need, I see the value, I see the path, and it I am taking this sort of one step at a time. So Karen: Yeah. Tracy Callahan: so in in saying that, you know, as we kind of wrap, what is it about this work that matters enough for you to keep showing up, even before the results maybe fully reflect your effort? Karen: I think it's the true desire to help someone walk through this this part of their life and and to make them understand this is a chapter. It's not your story. This is not defining you. You're going to be able to get through with this and and and there's this, you know, love that I helped you get there. it it's that I want to take some of that confusion and clarify it for you so you're not confused and you're not overly, you know, angry and you're learning how new skills that you can take with you, you know, learning how to communicate better. That's a skill you can take with you. It's not just a divorce. and it and it's giving people those little nuggets like that that they can also take with them. I mean, it's life-changing. It truly can be. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, I I couldn't agree more. So any Karen: Ha ha ha. Tracy Callahan: last parting words for people who maybe knew divorce coaches who are building their practice? Words of inspiration, Karen. Karen: trust yourself, be patient. It's not gonna Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Karen: grow overnight. Push yourself out of that comfort zone. It will pay off. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Karen: talk to people. Depend on your fellow coaches. You know, I feel like people have paid a path. Take it. Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Karen: use it Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Karen: you that doesn't make you any less better it it just makes you stronger I think you know and and depend on each other and and and talk about it talk about the situations with the other coaches you know go to case consult because you do you learn so much just from listening to other people's experiences and and then you do question like I wonder how I would I handle that you know so Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Karen: it's it's a constant learning experience and and if it's passionate to you, which you know, I I feel it's a passion of mine, then keep going. Keep going. I'm a fanatic. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, you're you're a fanatic. You're a fanatic defined by Dr. Mean. Karen, I want to thank you so much for speaking so honestly about where you are in this journey and for allowing us to hear the story while you're still actively building it. And I think there is absolutely something powerful about hearing from a professional while they're still doing it. Not because the story is incomplete, but because this part of the story really matters. And I think this is where commitment becomes visible. it's found, right, as we we make these efforts to send messages to the work that we do, to ourselves, to our professional community. It takes time, it takes work, right? And it is found in strengthening your skills before your calendar is full, right? And preparing yourself. Karen: Yes. Tracy Callahan: also to deliver excellent service while Karen: Yeah. Tracy Callahan: while people are sitting there starting to come. Right. And and I think it's also found in the decision to keep showing up because you understand that people navigating divorce do deserve better support than what is currently available or what historically has been available. And I think as we look at the changes of dispute resolution across the United States as well as other countries, Australia and New Zealand, even our Arabian Gulf, Canada, it's it's changing and we know it's changing because people are demanding it to be changed. It shouldn't have to be the way it is. And I think we are that profession that fills that gap for so many people. I also think your journey reminds us that we cannot advocate for divorce coaching only after individual coaches have established practices. We have to show up for each other and support each other and fellow colleagues and professionals as we're building and advancing this press profession. I think it's key. And our work at Divorce Coaches Academy does not end when someone earns a certification. Right. We are also high quality ethical competency-based training is the foundation, but the profession goes through continued learning, mentorship, case consultation, professional relationships. And as I have screamed from the mountaintops, we need highly trained divorce coaches doing excellent work. We do. And Karen: Great. Tracy Callahan: we are gonna continue to advocate for that. Divorce coaching, as Karen, you shared, is not a substitute for legal advice, therapy, mediation, or financial guidance. It it's a distinct form of dispute resolution that helps build clients' conflict competency and the capacity to engage and change the experience of conflict in this divorce process. So for all of you listening, Karen again, thank you so much. I hope that you have taken a little something. away whether you are a new coach building your practice or somebody who's out there building practice, how are you showing up for your fellow professionals? We're in this together. So thank you so much for joining us and we look forward to you joining us yet again.