Latest / The Leading Yourself Podcast / From Control to Trust: The Leadership Habit Holding You Back | Kamiqua Lake
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- Kamiqua Lake: There's a lot of greatness on the other side of unlearning, I guess. The reason why I like the term is that actually it's in our credentials document, unlearning, because a lot of the time if a business is trying to do something different, they have to stop doing something that they thought was true and the right thing to do. So I guess on the other side of that unlearning is almost a world of possibility just because it's always been done that way doesn't mean that's the only or the best way to do it. Kene Igweonu: My guest on this episode is Kamiqua Lake, an award-winning entrepreneur, communication strategist, and passionate advocate for inclusion and leadership. Kamiqua is the founder and CEO of Coldr, an award-winning B-Corp certified communications and social impact consultancy. She's also the founder of UK Black Comms Network, an organization dedicated to creating opportunities building community. and championing black talent in the communications industry. Her career spans senior leadership roles in global agencies, working with some of the world's best brands. And in recognition of her contribution to the industry, she was awarded an honorary doctorate by University of the Arts London in 2024. Beyond these achievements, what interests me most is how commitment to challenging established thinking, creating opportunities for others, and building organizations where people can thrive. As we explore season two, unlearning, I'm particularly interested in what Kamiqua has had to let go of in her own leadership journey, because leadership growth is sometimes less about adding more and more about letting go of habits, assumptions, instincts, and ways of leading that no longer serve us well. Kamiqua, welcome to the Leading Yourself podcast. Kamiqua Lake: Thank you, Kene. Such a lovely introduction and yeah, great to have this conversation with you today. Kene Igweonu: Amazing. Could you please start by telling us a little bit about your organization, Coldr and your key responsibilities as founder and CEO? Kamiqua Lake: Yeah, sure. So I've been in the PR and communications industry for 20 odd years now. And I set up Coldr and the Black Comms Network about six years ago. So I set up during the pandemic. And actually, the whole theme of this podcast around unlearning, I'd say my whole journey has been around learning and unlearning and trying to understand what to keep and what to let go of, particularly because the purpose of Coldr really was to be inclusive by design. So a lot of the campaigns and communications programs that I'd worked on prior to Coldr, I'd have really interesting conversations or odd conversations about making sure different communities or different audiences were either featured or part of the campaign of who we're trying to reach. So that could be people that live outside of London, that could be black communities, disabled communities, sometimes just subcultures. think oftentimes marketing. and Comms is aimed at this mainstream sort of middle, which is great, I think is important to do. And I think with Coldr, a lot of what we do is how do you make sure that you can speak to mainstream audiences, but businesses and organizations can grow or get their messaging out there further by including different audiences too. So inclusion is at the heart of kind of everything we do. We just think that's the way to communicate to as many people as possible. Kene Igweonu: And thinking about your dual role as both founder and CEO, I talk to lot of CEOs as part of this podcast, but you are the first founder actually I'm talking to on this podcast. Could you tell me a little bit about what that role really entails being not just the CEO of a company, but the founder of that company? What kind of responsibilities come with Kamiqua Lake: It's very much about ownership. And there's a lot of conversation around women and ownership around black communities and ownership. And I actually didn't really see it like that when I started. It was more that there was a big issue in our industry. And I think it does, it still remains now. And I wanted to build something that kind of overcame that issue around speaking to people that look like me. but also having messaging that was more broad. So the founder part, I guess, is what comes with starting something. I think the CEO part comes of actually rewriting your job description and, actually I'm in a process of rewriting it again, because I think what you start out doing versus when your business grows, your role changes. And one of the most important things I've had to do was continually look at what is my job now. So when it was just me. My job was very much about bringing the clients in, but also thinking about team and the work. Not to say that my role, those things aren't part of Kene Igweonu: you Kamiqua Lake: my role now, they are, but now that I have a couple of directors or a couple of senior leaders in the team, my role has changed because there's a lot more coaching, passing on information, not assuming they understand what's going in my head in terms of how I want the organization to lead and do our work. And, then even more, and I guess bigger pronounced focus on, guess, more sales and new business and growth, which it was part of that story at the beginning, but there were so many other things I was thinking about, whereas now I'm probably more laser focused. So the CEO part is the part that changes and grows with the business. Whereas the founder part, I guess, is just what I've done. It's almost, it's almost past tense in that sense. Kene Igweonu: So what have you learned about unlearning as a leader, whether that unlearning process is something that becomes important as you grow your leadership or something that is kind of foisted on you? Do you choose it or Kamiqua Lake: So Kene Igweonu: does it choose you? Kamiqua Lake: One of the biggest things when you're trying to, I guess, challenge the status quo, well, for me, has been what do you keep and what do you throw away? So what parts work and what parts are integral to the job you're trying to do? So essentially, I run an agency and I run a Network. Which parts of those things need to stay true for me to do the job that I'm trying to do? And which parts do I need to, could I do differently if I'm really trying to present a different solution to the clients that we work with on Coldr or the members that we have on Black Comms Network. so if I give you an example from a Black Comms Network perspective, traditionally when you have chairs or chair or board roles, for example, they are unpaid in the kind of voluntary sector. And I was really insistent from the outset that as soon as we could, we had partners that were supporting us, I would make sure that we would pay chairs to do some of the work that we do in Black Comms Network. And, as much as it's a limited company, I very much run it as a, a nonprofit way in that everything gets plowed back into the business and I don't actually take a salary from it. But I was really intentional about if I'm going to ask people from this community to support others in the community alongside their day job. That is work and I need to find a way, even if it's a small amount, to thank them for their time, but also to reward them for their time and to recognise the time that's going into it. So whereas I think most nonprofits trade on as much goodwill as possible, we absolutely do trade on some goodwill. But I think it was really important in the set up to think about how do things normally work in this space? But also how do I want to do it? I guess the other part to that is that I've never run a Network before. So I'm new to it. So it's always like, how do I want to run this? So it's what's happened before, what do I want to change? And then what's my stance on how to do this differently? And how's that going to work? So I say that to say it's similar on Coldr, which is more of a commercial business in that there are norms of running an agency. that you need to stay true to, to make your business viable, make sure you can pay your team salaries and that you're successful. But there were lots of things that I thought we didn't need to do anymore. Or as an industry was being done for the wrong reasons, I thought actually I'm going to do away with that and we don't need to do that anymore. it was just sort of, some of these things are kind of automatic decisions. Some of the things I've sat with, but it was just really thinking about what am I trying to do here? Yeah, what, what impacts am I actually trying to make? Kene Igweonu: Yeah, this just a bit of digression. I'm really interested in what you're saying about the motivation for making sure that people are paid for their time. As an educator, I remember we've had lots of debates about student labor. When you ask students to do an industry project, for example, and how sometimes we often send students to do those projects without costing it and they're not getting paid for it. And what that what that means really for students. You want them to graduate into the sector and be able to earn a living, but actually part of the training that we give them tells them to give away their living for free. So I'm really interested to know a bit more about where did yours come from? Kamiqua Lake: I started out in fashion PR and I interned for a couple of years without being paid. And, you know, I got paid in jacket potatoes because it was basically like I got lunch. And I did that for a couple of years. And then I got to a point where I was like, okay, I need to get a job now. And I was toying between getting a job and doing another internship. So I didn't almost know when to stop interning and when I could actually like get paid. And I remember that being a really sort of conscious point where I thought, actually, maybe I could get a job now because I have been doing it for a couple of years and I've got a degree. So let me just try and go for it. But no one always tells you when you can do that. So I say that to say when I was then thinking about Black Comms, there was, and don't get me wrong, we get a lot of like people that just do it for the love and not interested in being paid and that's fine. But I definitely think on the more commercial side with Coldr, we pay all of our interns. We've never used free labor. I even think about free labor when it comes to people applying for jobs that we might set a slightly longer interview period, which might be a couple of hours where someone might do a task on the job. But we're just really conscious around that free labor just to apply for a job. And even when we're employing juniors into the team, we do a paid day. So we do the interview process and then we say, come in for a day. we'll pay you for that day, then we'll maybe pay you for that week. And then if it works out and you decide, because I also think young people don't always know exactly what they want to do, or if that's the right place for them, then we look at a longer term piece. But from the outset, we're very sort of cognizant making sure that young people can enter the industry and that we're doing playing our role in making sure it's viable for them. Kene Igweonu: I like that a lot. I think that speaks a lot to the values that you have as an individual, but also the values of the companies that you run. I think that's really important. So thank you for doing that. I think it's really absolutely important that where we can, that we pay people for what they do. And that's brilliant just to hear you say that you kind of championing and doing that. So thank you so much. On behalf of all the young people who are looking for internships. So Kamiqua Lake: thank you. Kene Igweonu: great. And can you just describe a leadership belief or habit or instinct that you relied upon and then as you grew your leadership, you then had to deliberately let go of those ones. Is there a particular instinct or leadership habit like that that you've had before that you find that no longer serves you? Kamiqua Lake: I think, One of the biggest things that I've learned is making sure I give my team permission to fail. And I think what's really challenging sometimes with leadership is like how I am as a person. I don't give myself that much permission to fail. And particularly when you're starting out, you're really concerned about any mistake being a fatal mistake and... Therefore, I don't know, you're going to lose a client or you might lose a team member that you really want to make sure you keep. And I've had to really challenge myself, particularly in difficult circumstances, to make sure I'm building in permission to fail. Because when I really think about it, I have learned the most from my biggest mistakes. And that's something that I found really hard as a kind of newer company, to grapple with how do I make sure it's a learning growing environment i.e you can make mistakes and we can learn from them but versus setting up starting up and being like the best in our game they almost don't it's hard to make those have those two things exist in at the same time and it's something that as we've grown I would hope that we've gotten better at allowing a bit more space for actually people giving things a go And then if it's not quite right, they learn about it and then they probably are not going to make that mistake again. Kene Igweonu: if you think about that idea of letting go, as somebody in business, particularly as a founder, would you say that that's risky? giving your team permission to fail and letting go of control in that way. Is that a risky thing for a founder to do? Kamiqua Lake: I think it's really scary for a founder. I think it's really scary for me also because I've spent a lot of time in crisis and reputation management. And so you can become quite risk averse. And I would say that I probably am fairly, I take quite calculated risks. I probably are not as, I think there's a scale of how much risk founders have appetite for and I'm probably more in the calculated risk space. But I'd say it's a journey that I'm on. I wouldn't say it's in the perfect place right now, but I think it's definitely something that I probably had super tight reins around. Whereas now I can't read every single email that leaves the building whereas in the beginning I did. And so you have to get to that place where you're more comfortable with, have you employed the right people that can make sure some, you know, those things get done and... And I think actually more importantly, it's like, saw an email that someone in the team sent today and I was like, I don't think we should have said it like that. That is a safe enough place that I can say that. people don't think, "Oh, is Kam coming down on me like a ton of bricks." It's more just, it's a learning moment. We understand it's a feedback moment. It's about what you've done, not about you as a person. And we can quickly move on from it because it's not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things, but this is how I think we should do it in the future. So I'm trying to find that balance between allowing that space, then also, think then sometimes, depends on what type of, I'm quite empathetic, I think, but trying to make sure Kene Igweonu: Mm. Kamiqua Lake: that you're leading, but you're also creating space for growth. Kene Igweonu: That's really important. I think that idea of leading, having to make some tough decisions along the way, but leaving space for your team to learn. And often we learn through failure, through not quite doing it right the first time. And so that's really important. But I'm really interested in what you're describing, trying to see if we can find the moment or the approximate moment when it got triggered in you. So was there something that triggered that shift to letting go? So you might want to think about maybe a particular moment, a particular experience Kamiqua Lake: Hmm. Kene Igweonu: that forced you to reflect on actually know what, I'm not going to be able to read all the emails that come out from, that come into this company. So was Kamiqua Lake: Hehehehehe Kene Igweonu: there a moment, are you able to trace it to that moment? Kamiqua Lake: I'm always on the go and I'm always thinking I've got a bit of an overactive brain and obviously I'm trying to build two things at the same time, which is quite difficult. And it's more of a realization of. how I spend my time and really thinking about what is the best use of my time at any given moment. And that is something I'm constantly thinking about. It's like, actually, where am gonna spend extra time? Where am I gonna spend less time? And what do I need to my time on? And if I really think about growing, if I'm really trying to grow and scale a business, it is not the best use of my time to be looking at every single email. So I'm not sure it's been a particular moment where that's happened. I can't remember who told said it to me, it might be one of a mentor I had, which was just about writing my own job description. And if I write my own job description, nowhere in that is checking every single email that leaves the building. And, you know, so actually, sometimes you when I started the business, I just started and I just kind of followed what did what I needed to do. Sometimes you're like the intern, sometimes the most important person in the building, sometimes you're getting the papers in. Sometimes you're having those conversations with finance, you're doing every single role because you don't have a different department for all of those roles. But at some point you've almost, I've had to take that step back and be like, okay, so what is my actual job here? And this isn't my job. I need to get my team to a place where they can spot some of these things themselves. And I'm just that oversight if they really need. Kene Igweonu: So I was going to ask you a follow up question, but you've hinted at it. And I want to explore that a little bit more with you. You talked about may be a mentor told you something. So this is really about thinking back to that transition and letting go of things. Did feedback from others play a role in that? And you mentioned the mentor. What kind of feedback? How did that feedback enable you to make that transition of letting things go so you can pick up of new leadership traits? Kamiqua Lake: One of the hardest things being a founder or even a CEO is you never get good feedback. Because everybody's really scared to give you good feedback. And I'll never forget when I worked at a big global agency and I went into the CEO's office, we were running a big account and he was like, how was it going? And it was a really tough account. It wasn't going particularly well. And I sort of launched into some of the things I thought weren't going too well and I thought we needed to do differently. and had a couple of solutions. And after I finished my spiel, he said, really? No one's told me this before. And no one ever really tells me exactly what's going on. And I suddenly thought, maybe I've broken the code here. Like, you're not supposed to do this. If you go into the CEO's office, you just say everything's fine. And you don't really say, tell the truth. So fast forward now to me being in that same position, I now feel like it's very, very hard to get like honest feedback. we do 360's with the team and, I've just sent my, my EA sent one round for me. And so I'm really interested to see how honest people will be around what they think I need to do differently. But I do try to create as much space for that in terms of what should be done differently. And so I think it's quite hard within an organization or within your team, but I think externally I've had different mentors over different times and I deliberately went for people who were very different to me. So men, white men or different races who I thought could give me a different perspective from my circle or people that might just pat me on the back or think overall you're doing fine, like you've got nothing to worry about. And I found that really, really useful because I think they're just looking at it from a business perspective. you know, especially if you're paying a mentor, they're trying to be as valuable as possible to you. And they're just looking at your business in a way that is not emotion, they're not emotionally attached to you in any way. And so it can quickly help Kene Igweonu: Hmm. Kamiqua Lake: you identify some challenges. And I've found that useful over the years. Kene Igweonu: That's really good. I like the distinction that you make between the internal feedback you get and the external feedback. But you've actually added another layer, which I want to kind of go down that rabbit trail a little bit with you. You just talked about paying mentors. So in my experience, I've always worked with mentors and sponsors. But my mentors are people who, like you said, are different from myself, give me a completely different perspective. I have mentors also from outside of higher education, which is my industry. But I'm not familiar with mentors that you actually pay. Is that the same as coach? I do have coaches that I pay. Could you say a little more about that? Kamiqua Lake: Yeah, I saw it as it's so I've had free mentorship, but I've also I think depending on who you're who it is, it's almost akin to me having a bit of a board. It's like who's on your board of CEOs, right? And for me, if I'm asking for your time to help me grow, I understand that there's a transactional piece to that. And also, I want to be able to call on you when I want to call on you and Unfortunately, I'm not saying that, like I say, there's a lot of people that want to do things out of the goodness of their heart, but I like a relationship that's quite clear. And we understand this is what it is. This is what you get. This is what you get for awarding me because you might not have any, you know, other than helping me, but you might not have any real interest in my business growing. So I think sometimes I like a relationship that's really clear and understood what this means and what it looks like and therefore what we're both trying to achieve. And so I have paid mentors in the past to tackle specific challenges around maybe growth or around team or around, you know, clients and various challenges we may have had. so yeah, I'm not adverse to paying mentors for the right mentor for the right space. I think you get a slightly different experience. And I think particularly if they span mental versus coach, because sometimes From a business mentor, there is an element of coaching or an element of the exchange Kene Igweonu: Yeah. Kamiqua Lake: that I think is worthy of reimbursing someone for their time. Kene Igweonu: Yeah. And it comes back to the value, know, that value. You want to make sure that people are, it's not just benefiting you, benefiting the person that you're working with. one of the practices I learned is that for my mentors, I always ask this question almost every single time we meet, not always, but almost every time we meet. I will say, what can I do for you? So once we finish our discussion, is there anything I can do for you? Can I help you with something? So I'm offering my service. I'm offering my whatever I could help them with. But I haven't thought about the financial value of that. Maybe because they don't need my money. But yeah, I think that's some kind Kamiqua Lake: Yeah Kene Igweonu: of payment. So that's interesting. OK. Thank you for that. Kamiqua Lake: Yeah, and also I think probably, I think that's really interesting because I think in terms of building my Network, often like, I try to, I try to be as helpful and as useful as possible, maybe in the mentor relationship, I've not necessarily thought that I had something to offer. So it's not even crossed my mind to enter into that conversation. So I think actually I'll take that away with me that there's probably is something I could do. Kene Igweonu: Yeah, thank you. Kamiqua Lake: And I've never actually thought of it in that way. Kene Igweonu: I'm sure you have lots of, you'd be surprised. mean, some of the people I'm talking about are people, again, I think maybe have nothing to offer, but I have been able to help with even, I mean, basic stuff like, for example, I have sat on an interview panel as an external member, for example. Kamiqua Lake: Yes. Kene Igweonu: I have done review of courses. So those kinds of things where you're helping them with something that they need the expertise that I have. But yeah, I'm sure there are lots of other stuff you could do with your, you know, wisdom and your experience that you could bring to the table. Kamiqua Lake: Thank you. Kene Igweonu: What has made unlearning difficult for you? Is there any particular point when you have to unlearn a particular leadership habit? And it's been so challenging because I am a perfectionist, for instance. And I like to do things in a particular way. And as I've grown in my leadership, I found it really challenging to delegate certain things to people and have them do it in a way that not quite the way I like to do it but having to learn to let go. I mean what they're doing is not wrong it's just not the exact way I like to do it. So what what has made unlearning difficult for you? Kamiqua Lake: I think I'm very similar in that I am a bit of a perfectionist. I'm also... I think I make a lot of assumptions. So one of the things I was saying to my husband the other day that you've hired someone to do a job and in your mind you've hired them to do the job and you think they're the right person, et cetera, et cetera. And sometimes I used to think about it like, okay, that's where it kind of stops in terms of my involvement. And I didn't want to almost get to be too personal or too involved. in a way that might be uncomfortable for them. So I'm always very aware of actually, not everyone wants to have a super personal relationship when you're working with them. But I think where I've landed is actually I need to, if you impart more of what good looks like for you and people actually want to do a good job and that assumes that you've hired the right people, you actually get a much more additive approach to what that person brings. So I'd say it's something I still very much struggle with in terms of how I'm seeing it or how I want it done or a vision for what it looks like. But some of our greatest work has actually come to fruition when I've given space. And I think actually having really good conversations around how I work and where some of those concerns, because some of that is quite fear-based in terms of that perfectionist thing. It's like, if I haven't seen it, is it okay? And comes back to that reviewing every email. And some of the kind of work that we've done or things that we've worked on, I haven't led on, particularly in the last couple of years. And it's been some of the best work we've done. it's almost, I've had to sort of trust that you have hired the right person. Have I relayed what my vision is clearly enough? And I'm quite a talker. So sometimes actually not everyone likes it to be in a conversation. Some people like it written down in a brief or, so have I looked at what their style, their learning style is, or that where that, communication style needs to be better and not just the way that I like to do it. And then have I given enough space? So it's an ongoing journey to, get to a really good place with that. But I think for me, I'm kind of like the proof is in the pudding. So when I have done it Kene Igweonu: Yep. Kamiqua Lake: and it's been a bit scary for me, or even if it's been a creative idea and one of maybe some more junior team members come up with something and I've been like still kind of, I think it should be this, but I've actually let go and gone with it. You we've won the business or it's done really well for us. So Kene Igweonu: us. Kamiqua Lake: I'm trying to be quite evidence-based. Like actually what is the evidence for what I'm thinking here or feeling Kene Igweonu: Yeah. Kamiqua Lake: here? And where is this a bit of a fear that is kind of unjustified? Kene Igweonu: Yeah, I like what you said about this because I think some of the work of leadership is getting the right people in the room to do the work. And I think you've got to trust that you've got the right team. And if you don't have the right team, then you have to get the right team in. Yeah, yeah, Kamiqua Lake: Different brand of. Kene Igweonu: yeah. But the work of the leader is to make sure you build the right team. I actually think that when a leader is the most intelligent person in the room, that's problematic. Kamiqua Lake: It's a bad, it's not, it's really bad. And I Kene Igweonu: Yeah. Kamiqua Lake: don't, I, I'm always like to you, if you need thoughts, I'm a creative person. I can give you thoughts on something, but I'm expecting you to build on this. And we very much about trying to, in terms of our team, it's about thinkers. It's about someone who's going to challenge and think about it a bit differently. So it's quite hard. And I get why it's challenging, working for a founder of business. But, I think we're getting to a good place where, yeah, it's. I wanna hear what you think about that. Kene Igweonu: Yes, that's brilliant. So this podcast is about people who are still growing in their leadership. And it's not really about how junior or senior they are. I want to believe I'm still growing. And I know that a lot of people who are more senior than myself in leadership who are still growing. What did the process ultimately teach you? This idea of unlearning something in order to be a better leader, So thinking about that person who is listening right now, and wondering, well, I do this at the moment, and I might have to unlearn it. What would you say to encourage that person to unlearn that habit? Kamiqua Lake: It's that There's a lot of greatness on the other side of unlearning, I guess. And because The reason why I like the term is that actually it's in our credentials document, unlearning, because a lot of the time if a business is trying to do something different, they have to stop doing something that they thought was true and the right thing to do. And actually, one of the questions I always get asked when we're hiring people is, what attributes are really important? And it is about the ability to unlearn what you've learned before because we're trying to challenge the industry. So I guess on the other side of that unlearning is almost a world of possibility just because it's always been done that way doesn't mean that's the only or the best way to do it. And I think for our team, the people that work really well at Coldr are people that are comfortable in ambiguity. some people can see a brief and be like, I need all the answers to be able to execute against this. Whereas I think the people that are good at unlearning or where unlearning really unlocks a lot of value is where you can be like, actually there's no clear answer here and I'm going to have to go on a journey to get there. And there's someone who, like I said, I can be quite hard on myself, but I think improvement is like something I think about all the time. I'm always trying to improve. Sometimes it's like actually it's understanding which bits you want to keep and which bits you don't want to keep. I guess the other side of it is that you don't have to unlearn everything. It's like what do you need to unlearn and why do you need to unlearn it? Yeah, I don't know. Kene Igweonu: Yeah. And it's really important, actually, what you just said, because I don't think unlearning is about building a new foundation, because you've got the leadership foundation. Unlearning is like when you're doing a home renovation, it builds on those things you've learned in the past. But it's just about really saying, well, at this stage, in order to enable other people to grow in their leadership in order to get the best of the team that I'm working with I have to stop doing certain things in order to do that it doesn't necessarily Kamiqua Lake: Yes. Kene Igweonu: mean you you forget the fact that you you're really good at being perfect in your work and stuff like that so Kamiqua Lake: Yeah. And I think it's it's, it's also for me, I'm quite reactive and my brain works really quickly so I can lose people. So I've also had to learn about pacing and about Kene Igweonu: Hmm. Kamiqua Lake: scheduling emails or scheduling Slack, or just because it's popped into my mind right now to pass that on to someone in my team could invoke stress rather than excitement. I'm excited, but me passing that onto someone else makes them feel quite stressed. So just thinking, I spend a lot of time thinking about what is the best way to communicate. And I'm a communicator for a living. So it's almost a given, it's also when you, sometimes you can forget that when you're building a team, it's like, actually what is the best way and how does this land? So I get the result that I want versus just passing it on straight away. And that's definitely something else I've had to sort of unlearn or relearn a different way to do it. Kene Igweonu: That's brilliant. And I think it's really about how your decision making has changed because of unlearning. One of the things that leaders need to learn is that sometimes the words that you say, you could just be thinking out loud. And I do that a lot. And you've set up a chain reaction. And you never had the intention of doing that thing, actually. You just thought out loud. Kamiqua Lake: Yeah. Kene Igweonu: And somebody goes, well, I want to please my boss. I'm just going to do that. Kamiqua Lake: Yeah. Kene Igweonu: And so that's really, really important one to learn. So that brings me to my last question. How do leaders create the right environment where other people can grow? So you are growing as a leader. You are developing as a leader. How do you create the environment for other people to have the permission to unlearn things as well, to grow and do it in a safe way without feeling that if they make a mistake, they're gonna get fired. Kamiqua Lake: I think that it's about backing what you can see in someone. So I had some feedback actually from my like number two in my team. And she said that I'm really good at spotting what someone's really good at, but they haven't seen for themselves. And I had never had anyone say that to me before. And I... And I really appreciate it because I didn't, it's just almost just what I do. And I didn't really think that much of it, but for someone else in the team, I really, I spotted that actually she'd be really good in a certain role or doing a bit more around relationship building with new clients. And I actually relayed that to her, whereas normally I probably wouldn't, I spot things all the time because I'm always like watching people and understanding how they take and how they work, but I don't always relay it. And so. Hearing that enabled me to then relay that to that person and then for them to then start thinking about, Kam sees that I could do X, Y, Z, or she's seeing more that I'm not necessarily seeing in myself. And I said, look, I'm seeing X, Y, Z. I really think you'd be good doing more of this, more of what you're doing now. But there's no pressure attached to it. But if the opportunity for you to be this person in the team exists, if you want to take it. I'm leaving that with you, nothing you need to act on right away, but sowing the seed for like, can see this and is that something you see in yourself or want for yourself or the role you want within the team? And so that was a few weeks ago. And since doing that, I think it's unlocked something in that person where they're now exploring actually what are the next steps for me and what does that look like? So I say, yeah, Kene Igweonu: That's beautiful. Kamiqua Lake: But then the other thing we've done is I've said to her, she's had a session with a coach. Actually, if you want more sessions with a coach, we'll fund that for you. So it's almost like not just saying you see something, it's like, okay, what was it within your gift or within your power? And it might not always be monetary to help that person figure it out, what works for them. And sometimes you can coach someone out of your company. Sometimes you can, you know, it's a bit like the famous thing around love, right? If you love someone, you set them free. And that can be quite scary, but I think you've almost got to be like, okay, I can really see this in the person. I hope that that means they want to continue this journey on with me. but there is very much a risk that they don't, but I'm kind of up for it anyway, because I want them to realize their full potential. And so I think it's in recent times been much more about that. Kene Igweonu: I like how you have talked about this idea of creating the environment from a very positive, affirming perspective. And that's the right way to look at it. But how do leaders avoid punishing vulnerability? Because the period of unlearning is a very vulnerable stage. When you're somebody, now you're in senior leadership, you've got to stop doing ABC, use your team more, whatever it is. that you need them to unlearn or you want to help them to unlearn, how do you not punish vulnerability? Because at that moment they are vulnerable, they're having to stop doing things they've been doing, which means there could be an error, there could be a mistake, you could lose business. How do you not punish that and give them that room to grow? Kamiqua Lake: I think the most important thing that I learned quite early on in my career is it's about the work, not the person. I know sometimes it is going to feel personal because it's a people led business, we're a team, all of that jazz, but it's like, you wouldn't be here if I didn't think you could do the job. You know, if, like I say, if, somebody can't do the job, that is a different challenge. Assuming that person can do the job, but they're finding something a bit difficult or they're going through their own growth journey. I will often say to someone, okay, this you need to get from A to B. That is going to take quite a lot of learning. That means that you might get more feedback from me. So I almost try to set up what that is going to look like and what that might feel like so that we're almost having a conversation about it before we enter into that process of that growth journey. And then when they are getting more feedback, because sometimes when feel like someone's giving you feedback all of the time, or, and I'll say, it might be more on the spot feedback, or I might spot, you know, rather than me waiting to your next one to one, I'm going to say X, Y or Z. Yeah, making it really clear what that looks like, like what I see that growth journey look like, what some of those pain points are going to be for you and maybe even for me in trying to get you from A to B. But it's going to be a journey. And I do think you've got the capacity. to do, I wouldn't be, I'm not gonna set you up to fail. I'm only gonna, well, we're only gonna enter this journey if I feel like it's something you can do. And so I think that's the only way I can do it really. It's like, it's not gonna be easy, but we're gonna go on it together. Or if it's not me Kene Igweonu: I like that. Kamiqua Lake: and it's somebody else and I'm managing someone, that's how I try and set the tone and pace of it. Kene Igweonu: I like that a lot because what you described there is really about scaffolding that learning experience for the person so that they have the right support. There's a challenge there because you're challenging them to be better, but at the same time, you haven't left them without the support and helping them to, in a sense, preempt what that process is going to look like so that when the feedback is coming, it's not taking them by surprise, but also they know it's coming. They actually anticipate it's coming. And that's something really positive. So thank you so much, Kamiqua. That's really, really some brilliant conversation here around leadership and unlearning. And I think that if all leaders really commit to reflection and to unlearning, we'll have amazing workplaces where people will be very happy to work with those leaders because they know that those leaders bring out the best in them. And thank you so much. Kamiqua Lake: thank you so much. It's been a great conversation. I thought we could have talked forever. So thank you. Kene Igweonu: I know. I know. It's so easy to talk to you, Kamiqua I really enjoy talking with you. And thank you so much for bringing some wisdom to the table for our listeners. Kamiqua Lake: Thank you, thank you so much.