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What My Most Dangerous Horse Taught Me About Letting Go | Dominique Barbier · Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson

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In the meantime, remember, live free.
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Welcome back rockers and fellow horse nerds.
1:18
Live free, ride free.
1:19
I've got Dominique Barbier today.
1:22
If you know who he is, then my introduction will be superfluous.
1:25
But if you don't know who he is, he's sort of one of the grand seigneurs
1:29
of dressage in the last few decades.
1:33
He's an exponent, he may correct me on this, of the French-Portuguese
1:38
style of dressage, which is the same one that I practice.
1:42
And he's written numerous books many of which have influenced
1:46
many people, including myself.
1:48
He operates out of California but is of course French and
1:54
teaches all over the world.
1:56
And his philosophies around what this whole dressing of a horse
2:01
business means have, I would say, had a positive effect on beginning to
2:12
Unstick some of the more rigid approaches that have beset this thing that we all
2:19
love so much, and sort of have, you know, affected people more positively and he-
2:24
help them take a wider view, while at the same time, you know, paying attention
2:28
to the accuracies of the dance itself.
2:31
So I'm very excited to have him, and as long-winded as that was it's good that
2:37
you sort of know that he's not just a horse trainer and a people trainer
2:41
and, you know, an exponent of the art.
2:43
He's also, I would say, helped move the whole thing forward ethically.
2:48
So, Dominique, thank you for coming on the show.
2:52
I probably got a lot of stuff wrong there but that's sort of how my perception is.
2:57
Can you tell us in your words who you are, what do you do, why you do it?
3:01
Dominique Barbier: Well, first of all, thank you, Rupert, to, to have me.
3:05
That's always a, a great pleasure for me to talk about what I do because, as you
3:11
do, it is something that we enjoy, and then we want to, to spread the good words.
3:16
Therefore, that's always a wonderful thinking to be able to talk about it.
3:20
Who am I?
3:21
That's a very good question.
3:23
I am not sure really, to tell you the truth, what, who I am.
3:26
I am what I am.
3:28
Therefore it is a, aâ¦
3:30
I, I was a chance w- I have a lot of chance in my life when I was a little boy
3:36
to be able to do my, my work with horses.
3:40
I got great help from my dad, who allow me to do this, which was not
3:45
a regular sort of job in France for a young man like I, I was.
3:52
But he let me do my passion, and and I I thank him in all my books every time.
3:58
I, I, I, I just thank him to have let me do what I wanted to do, which kind
4:04
of- Little rare and and, and enjoyable.
4:09
Therefore very early on I was somebody fascinated by the, by the
4:14
horses and, and very early on I had a different kind of vision on the world.
4:22
I- it's kind of tough to talk about yourself, as you know, because it's
4:27
it's, you, you don't see yourself very much like everybody sees you, thank God.
4:34
And I was kind of a little weird kid.
4:37
I always had a, had a possibility to see things differently on two different level.
4:44
I had some sort of a foot in one world and foot in this other world.
4:49
And it was kind of very uncomfortable as a kid, to tell you the truth, but
4:54
getting used to it and, and after that learned to work with it and
4:59
this world of of the unknown that that very few people speak about
5:04
because they are kind of afraid of it.
5:07
I was a young kid and I had a lot of problem because I, I I saw things and
5:14
I heard things and I, and I sort of see things with my horses that nobody
5:19
was very much aware of at that time.
5:24
Just to, to have a little fun note- Can you give us
5:26
some examples of that?
5:27
Yeah
5:27
Dominique Barbier: example, well, I, I, I think there was another
5:30
dimension to the horses that really the, the regular work with horses did
5:37
not let anybody approach or touch.
5:40
Something that is was very strange to me because it was so, natural and so
5:48
real to me that I could not understand why nobody else could see that.
5:52
When I was in England, for example, my horses were light.
5:55
They were too light.
5:58
Which is, it's kind of a really funny thing.
6:00
Technically speaking, they were horses were, were too light because
6:06
even now a lot of people think that they measure how forward the horse
6:13
is by the weight he has in your rein, which is completely a nonsense.
6:19
But even now, even the, the people who are more educated think that if
6:25
they don't feel something in your hand some sort of heavy for a young
6:29
horse, then this horse is not forward, which is a completely wrong concept.
6:34
But anyway, therefore very early on I had this very different feel- feelings
6:39
how you have to breathe with your horse and how you do have to look at them
6:43
and not look at them, all those little codes that, that the horses teach you.
6:48
And they, they, they tell you what they like and they tell
6:51
you what they don't like.
6:52
Mm.
6:52
And of course I, I I study and I was a very good student by
6:57
the way that I wanted to do.
7:00
W- whoever I study with, I wanted to do what they were doing because
7:05
that's what I was there for.
7:06
Mm.
7:06
I was learning their stuff.
7:08
Therefore, I learn a lot of thing that I did not wanted to do I, I
7:13
learned a lot of stuff that that was I was very successful at it.
7:18
I enjoyed it.
7:19
It was great, but, but that was really something that was missing and something
7:24
that I, that I deeply did not like.
7:27
Therefore, I, I went through my study, this a little bit of my of my first book,
7:32
you know, Dressage of the New Age- Mm â¦ that that was kind of a notebook for all
7:37
that time, and and just go through a lot of different trainings, a lot of hunting
7:43
in England, a lot of racing in France, and, and steeplechasing and, and all- Mm
7:49
those, you know, polo and, and jumping, and name it.
7:53
I, I wanted to do it all.
7:55
And, and I did it all a little bit just to know that I did not want
7:59
it to do, to, to do it that way.
8:02
Therefore, that was my my concept of that.
8:05
Just a little note, recently I w- was, I am involved with the the, the
8:10
University of Arizona, and with this, with a wonderful group of people
8:15
who are mathematicians, believe it or not, and as you know, I am not
8:19
too much of a mathematician myself.
8:22
But they are absolutely wonderful people that study everything every animal
8:29
possible, and make everything into an equation, mathematic equation, that they
8:34
can help with boats and submarine and plane and, and medicine and all that
8:40
stuff just by mathematician things.
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And my, my, my good friend there is really involved into, into horses,
8:50
and wants to do a lot more things.
8:53
Therefore, now we are riding horses with astronauts to, to see, to, to
8:58
see how your, your heartbeat is going, and to see how your, your, your mind
9:03
is acting or not you know, what's happening to your body when you ride.
9:07
And then they take measurements, measurements of the horses, measurements
9:10
of the people, and if something change, if they can detect a change, that
9:18
mean that scientifically it exist.
9:20
The- therefore, the, the funny little guy in the, in the, in the late '60s
9:25
or early '70s that I was thinking all those little crazy things happen
9:31
to be scientifically correct now, which I think is kind of funny.
9:36
It does not it doesn't change me too, too much, but for a lot of people I think
9:40
it's gonna change, because scientifically speaking, It is proven now that there's
9:44
so many thing who are changing on the mind level, not on a physical level, but the
9:51
physical and the mental level coming up.
9:55
Therefore, it's a, it's a, it's a really a very interesting travel to do this.
10:01
A little bit like when, when the la- when the Dalai Lama wanted to, to have
10:06
all those doctors just studying how those monk meditate in Tibet and what's
10:12
happening actually when somebody meditate and how this, this, these spiritual
10:17
levels that has never explored start to be now very much of a scientific
10:23
level and more understanding about it.
10:26
Therefore it's a sort of a good thing to, to, to think that everybody is,
10:32
is looking in the right direction.
10:34
Of course, not fast enough.
10:36
You know that 99% of the, of what people do with horses is purely physical and,
10:42
and, and was and is purely physical for so many, many dozens of years.
10:48
And it's just starting to think that maybe there's something else there.
10:53
May- maybe-
10:53
I have a question for you.
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Yes.
10:54
What did you feel when you say you were this funny little guy back in the '70s?
10:58
What did you feel was going on in the mind?
11:02
A- and what are the measurements now from the University of
11:06
Arizona showing That confirms that
11:11
Dominique Barbier: Well, there is a, a, the, your, your, your, your breathing,
11:15
for example, is very important because as you know in all the thinking
11:20
of you know, theory of relaxation, the breathing is very important.
11:25
Mm-hmm.
11:26
And, and the breathing for me was, was very very interesting as a kid.
11:31
Mm.
11:31
I, I, I was doing a lot of experiment with my breathing, and that, that's,
11:36
that allow me now to have a, to, to be able to be obliged to sleep
11:41
with a, with a sleeping machine because I just taught my body to stop
11:45
breathing, and that's not a good thing.
11:47
Your body should breathe and should should function properly.
11:52
Therefore all the feeling that, that when you think something you, you know,
11:57
the, what people think that your horse anticipate, your horse do not anticipate.
12:02
Your horse simply read your mind.
12:05
Simply he is watching the picture that you send him.
12:09
He is he is the visualization of what you want, is, is as real as a, as a,
12:15
as a, as in the other world of kicking and banging and pushing and forcing.
12:21
So you were talking about when y- for example, just so I get this right-
12:24
Dominique Barbier: Yes
12:25
â¦ you correct me if I'm wrong back in the '70s or so forth, when you were beginning
12:30
to, you, you were working with horses in England, and I'm gonna ask you why England
12:34
in a moment given that you were coming out of France, would it not have been easier
12:37
to stay within the French tradition?
12:39
But just maybe-
12:40
Dominique Barbier: Well, I can tell- Yeah â¦ I can tell you, I c-
12:43
I can tell you that very quickly.
12:44
Okay.
12:44
Dominique Barbier: I, I, I went to England because my dad wanted me to
12:48
be p- professional and have diplomas, and at that time in, in Europe, the
12:53
British Horse Society was the only group of people that were actually
12:57
giving you professional diplomas
12:59
at that, that point.
12:59
Ah, got it.
12:59
That's fine.
12:59
Got it.
12:59
Got it.
12:59
That's fine.
12:59
Yeah, the French were not doing it at that point.
12:59
Got it.
13:03
Okay.
13:04
So, y- you're there, and it's all very biomechanical, but you're having these
13:08
ideas about visualization and getting some results with this, as well as
13:13
with the actual physical techniques.
13:17
But presumably, this is falling, to some degree, on deaf ears w- at least within
13:22
the equestrian community at the time.
13:25
But now, and, and, and the way you, you, you were, you were experimenting with
13:30
ways to breathe and ways to visualize, can you tell us a little bit, put us
13:34
back in the shoes of that young man on that horse in England back in that time.
13:38
What are you visualizing?
13:39
How are you changing your breathing?
13:41
And what effects did you notice?
13:45
Dominique Barbier: Well, as I told you before, it was kind
13:48
of a pretty natural to me.
13:51
Therefore, oh, goodness, how can I express that?
13:54
Maybe I can express that from the very beginning.
13:56
Where I decide to to go to, to, to be a professional, and my dad
14:03
allow me to go back to England to Crabbet Park to do a assistant
14:08
structure of British Horse Society.
14:09
Okay.
14:10
And at that time I, I was n- not knowing very much.
14:15
I just was going there.
14:17
And what happened there was that I was able to ride horses in England.
14:23
There was a kind of a pony you know, the pony club type of things.
14:27
Mm-hmm.
14:27
I was very, very bored.
14:29
And, and I went to see the, the top man there, the, the, the man who, who, who
14:34
went to school, and I said, "You know, at, at 11:00 o'clock in the morning you,
14:38
you have a course that I'm willing to give a lesson that is really interesting.
14:42
Can I join in?"
14:44
And he was surprised.
14:45
He looks at me and he said, "Well, of course."
14:48
And I did not know at that time it was a course for the fellowship
14:53
of the British Horse Society.
14:54
At that time there were only 12 people with this with this
14:58
exam, and they were top, top professional that wanted to do this.
15:03
Therefore, I did not know that.
15:05
I sat on my little horse and they were talking about doing the shoulder in and
15:09
the haunches in and blah, blah, blah.
15:10
And my English was very minimum, but I could figure it out.
15:14
And then in the middle of the lesson I heard, "Oh, look at the frog."
15:18
Well, the frog I know that was me.
15:20
And a- and they stop and they look at me, and they asked me how I was doing
15:25
that, and I said, "Well, you asked me to do this, that's what I do."
15:28
Therefore, I had a lot of very instinctive things- Mm â¦ happening there.
15:34
Got it.
15:35
Dominique Barbier: And it was very natural, and I did not understood it.
15:38
Now, when I became pr- professional, I had a nine-month where I could not ride,
15:45
and I will tell you why, and I discover a lot of things there why I could not ride.
15:50
Is because I wanted to know what was happening with me, exactly the
15:53
question that you, that you asked me, "What, what was happening there?"
15:57
I did not know.
15:58
Mm.
15:59
Dominique Barbier: And when I started to ask myself what was happening if I
16:04
become pr- professional, I was authentic enough to know that I had to figure it
16:08
out, and I basically could not figure it out, and I could not ride anymore because-
16:14
When you say you couldn't ride, you couldn't put your foot in the stirrup, or
16:18
when you got up there you found yourself at a loss, or you just found yourself a
16:22
bit like a writer with writer's block, feeling that you couldn't approach
16:26
the horse until you figured this out?
16:28
Dominique Barbier: Exactly.
16:30
All, and all of that
16:31
Mm-hmm
16:32
â¦ Dominique Barbier: all, all together.
16:33
It was a simply thing that I was putting, as I say now, now that I
16:37
could explain what happened to me, I was putting my- Mm â¦ my intellectual
16:40
brain between me and the horse, and you, you stop every- everything.
16:46
Yeah.
16:47
Dominique Barbier: If you, if you, if you, if you think at the time that when you
16:51
are riding in your intellectual mind, it just cut, cut the whole system together.
16:58
Yes.
16:59
I think I, I, I would, I wouldâ¦
17:01
I could hear, I can sort of hear in my mind the dissenters, the naysayers
17:05
to that saying, "What do you mean?"
17:07
You know, "I go for my dressage ride and/or I go for my jumping ride, and
17:11
my instructor, you know, talks to me through the little thing in my ear, and
17:15
micromanages every moment of my ride, and I go and get my ribbon at the dressage
17:22
event, or I, you know, at my jumping event, so therefore it's working for me."
17:26
And although I can think of a lot of things to say to that I think it's just
17:31
worth playing devil's advocate, because people are coming at this, I think, for
17:38
the right reasons and with in good faith.
17:42
They're trying to ride well.
17:45
They're trying to do right by their horse.
17:48
They're trying to seek out the best mentorship they can, and of
17:52
course, inevitably, like many forms of modern mentorship, it ends in
17:57
the intellectual and the physical.
18:00
And they are getting results.
18:02
Now, okay, perhaps they look a little stiff, perhaps they l- look a little
18:06
robotic, perhaps they look a little cramped, perhaps they look a little
18:09
stressed, but they are getting results.
18:11
So when you say something like you are saying, You
18:16
Dominique Barbier: don't, can I, can I interrupt
18:16
â¦ how do you reassure the listener- Can I-
18:19
that is saying, "But I, but I'm trying so hard, Dominique."
18:21
You know what I mean?
18:22
It r- just speak to that, if you would.
18:25
Dominique Barbier: Yeah.
18:26
I, I can, I wanted to interrupt you there.
18:28
Mm.
18:28
It depends what, what the success of your learning is for you.
18:33
Mm.
18:34
Dominique Barbier: If you, if you are happy with the, with the blue
18:38
ribbon, and the, and the banging, and the pushing, and the kicking- Mm
18:41
there is sp- there is space for that.
18:44
Mm.
18:44
Like, there, there is space for fast food.
18:47
Mm.
18:47
There, there is space for, for, for the world that we're living now, and we are-
18:52
Mm â¦ seeing that all the time now.
18:54
Mm-hmm.
18:55
And, and I just want to say there's, there's space for something else.
19:00
And, and, and that, and I think it's not fair to- Yeah
19:04
To, to, to, to put one different than the other.
19:08
Mm-hmm.
19:08
If you want a, if, if, if you want a burger, you eat a burger.
19:12
If you want to, to, to eat fast food, you eat fast food.
19:15
If you want to have a, a, a, a, a Michelin star or, or, or, or, or your grandmother's
19:21
favorite dish, that's what you have.
19:23
Mm-hmm.
19:23
It's a different, it's a different approach on life.
19:27
Mm-hmm.
19:27
This is not a matter of success or no success.
19:29
It is not a matter of what it is, it's, it's the way you, you feel, and-
19:34
This is, this is, this- Thanks for clarifying that because I, I do feel
19:38
that that helps people to understand that there's no right or no wrong here, no,
19:44
no hierarchy of, you know, you're gonna be con- sent to the seventh realm of
19:49
Tartarus if you ride, if you accidentally hit your horse too hard with your mouth
19:54
or your, in the mouth or with your legs or something, that it's, it'sâ¦
19:58
Or if you want to ride biomechanically, that there's anything somehow
20:02
morally wrong with that.
20:04
Because I think- Well, well, well- â¦ I think so much- Well, Rupert, Rupert
20:07
â¦ within the last five years or so, people have begun to talk in that way.
20:10
Dominique Barbier: Rupert, can I, can I interrupt you?
20:12
Yeah.
20:13
Dominique Barbier: Can I interrupt you?
20:14
Please.
20:14
If, if riding a horse is to have your partner happy-
20:20
Mm
20:20
â¦ Dominique Barbier: like they say, they, they, they, they, it's even in the
20:24
rule all what we are talking about now- Mm â¦ is, is, is not really relevant.
20:31
Because if your goal is to have your horse happy, you understand- Mm â¦ that
20:35
everything you do on top of him physically, ge- generally he doesn't like.
20:41
Mm.
20:41
And we have 90%, I spend 90% of my time trying to be out of his way.
20:47
Mm.
20:48
And then 10% after the 90% to try to help him, if I think I can.
20:55
But that helping stuff before, leave them, leaving them alone I don't think is to my
21:01
knowledge of relationship, is not correct.
21:03
If you have a relationship, have your partner happy.
21:08
Mm-hmm.
21:08
And your horse will tell you that.
21:10
Your horse will tell you.
21:11
People, people ask me all those complicated question, and I always
21:15
say do your horse like, like it?"
21:18
Yeah
21:19
Dominique Barbier: I mean, do, do, do your horse like spurs?
21:22
Do you, do your horse like half holes?
21:25
Do your horse like all those things that you do to him?
21:28
Mm.
21:28
No, he doesn't.
21:29
Mm.
21:30
No, he doesn't.
21:31
And, and, and, and again, people start to, to try to put it into a very higher
21:37
level of technique of this and that.
21:38
Mm-hmm.
21:39
And, and you know, you, you are talking to somebody who had a, a collection of spurs.
21:42
I have 300 spurs
21:45
in my collection.
21:46
Yes.
21:46
I was very much in, in my spurs and very much into my stuff, and I really
21:50
regret it very much because- Mm
21:52
my horses were not happy, and I was not happy.
21:55
Mm.
21:56
But I did, but I did not know at, at that time.
21:58
I think, I think, I, I think that we, to, to, to carry on the, the,
22:04
the, the, the way I'm thinking about this, it is a matter of who you
22:09
are and what you're looking for.
22:12
Therefore, it's not aâ¦
22:13
If you want to be an Olympians, go right ahead.
22:16
I have good addresses for you and good horses that, that
22:19
will produce this for you.
22:21
Now, don't talk to me about happy happy people and happy
22:26
horses, because they're not.
22:28
Yeah.
22:28
Yeah, yeah.
22:29
I get, I get you.
22:30
Now, let's go the other extreme- Yes â¦ because as you know,
22:35
monkeys, that's us, tend to think in extremes to our detriment.
22:39
And so I would say that in the last five years in particular, I've noticed in the
22:46
course of the conversations that I've, you know, been part of, that there's
22:51
become a drift towards the other extreme, people reacting against the biomechanical
22:58
push and kick and pull, to the extent that now y- there's a rising camp saying
23:05
you may not even touch the horse, Yes
23:09
unless the horse has somehow emailed you- Yes â¦ his consent, which I
23:12
don't know how he's going to do that.
23:14
And- Therefore, it's reached a sort of a, an extreme where people can find
23:21
themselves almost in a state of paralysis.
23:24
And of course, the, the middle ground in between of relationship
23:30
is more fluid than that, and murkier than that, and messier than that.
23:35
W- if it's, if it's, if that is true with humans to humans, and horses to
23:40
horses, when we observe horses in their herd dynamics, they're sometimes at
23:46
peace with each other, and sometimes not, and sometimes they're nice to each
23:50
other, and sometimes they're shitty to each other, and some- They go through
23:52
all of the same stuff that we do.
23:54
But yet they have a, like us, they have a sort of a, a basic
23:59
stasis of, "This is our culture."
24:03
Particularly when, you know, they can live in somewhat naturalistic settings.
24:07
How do we balance the extreme that you were reacting to and that is still there,
24:16
with the extreme that I just talked about, which is I think a rising extreme, and
24:23
hit that middle ground of happiness?
24:25
What, what do you, what do you say to that?
24:29
Dominique Barbier: Well, I think extreme extreme, I think that, that, that's
24:33
the, as you say, that's the world right now in politics and in, in everything.
24:38
Again, it's a very personal thing.
24:40
Mm.
24:41
You, you are I don't know you, your life, Rupert, very, very much, but
24:46
because of the circumstances, you, you, you got a kid who was autistic,
24:52
and that, that, that make you change your life in a, in a very deep way.
24:56
Mm-hmm.
24:57
Well, why do we consider horses autistic?
25:01
Mm.
25:04
Why do we consider ourself au- autistic?
25:08
And then, and, and then should we should we touch them?
25:11
Should we hold them?
25:12
Should we compress them?
25:14
Should we talk to them, not talk to them?
25:17
You know, I mean, all those, all those questions are very personal and very
25:22
unique to the person and to the situation.
25:26
Therefore, as a teaching method- Mm â¦ there is extreme.
25:30
I mean, not, you know, not very long time, I, I hate to say that, but the,
25:36
you know, the, the, the, the, the, th- this wonderful movie about the
25:41
guy that invented the bomb, you know.
25:44
And, a- and, and and the, the Queen apologized because they persecuted,
25:48
because the poor guy was gay at that time, and, and that was considering
25:52
like an awful, terrible thing to do.
25:55
Mm.
25:55
Therefore, we are, we are learning in the world of, of people who are
25:59
different and, and, and, and have different relationship with the world,
26:04
with themself, with with the thing.
26:06
It doesâ¦
26:06
I think it's a human experience.
26:09
Therefore, the more, the more-
26:09
Yeah.
26:09
I, I, I think your, your, your point about autism's an interesting
26:13
one because definitely it changed my approach to everything.
26:19
Dominique Barbier: Of course.
26:19
As it, as it would.
26:20
But one of the things it did was, this is why I asked the question
26:23
of that middle line, because, for example, I'm big on finding mentorship.
26:28
If I don't know something, I will try to find people that do and learn from
26:34
them, similar to, you know, to you.
26:36
And so for example, when I was in this position with my son and could not reach
26:41
him, and I observed that the therapists that were working with him also could
26:47
not reach him, I thought, "Well, okay, then a mentor is needed here.
26:52
What qualities must that mentor have?"
26:54
That mentor must be autistic, because otherwise it's just a set of opinions.
26:59
Yes.
26:59
That mentor must have s- had the particular, or must have the particular
27:04
type of autism that my son does, which means that at three they must have
27:09
been, you know, non-verbal, shitting themselves, and harming themselves.
27:13
And then they must have made it.
27:15
Who, who's that person?
27:16
And I found that person, actually.
27:18
That's Dr.
27:18
Temple Grandin in, at, you know, the univers- Colorado State
27:22
University and- Yeah â¦ you know, that's her, that's her trajectory.
27:25
So I actually just went to her and said, "How does my son become you?"
27:28
And m- meaning that it's not enough for somebody to remain where they are in the
27:35
world, because if my son had remained like that, he would not have survived.
27:39
In, in the wild he would have died.
27:41
Yeah.
27:41
So how does my son, who's downstairs, by the way cleaning up the kitchen before he
27:46
takes himself off into the German town of Wiesbaden for the day, who's just flown
27:51
over here from Texas by himself- â¦ who just sold his house last year, who has
27:55
his own car, who's, who's got a couple of jobs and, you know, this same, that's
27:58
the same y- he's the now young man of 26.
28:02
Dominique Barbier: Yeah.
28:02
It, he, how do you teach somebody the, the practical, the life skills
28:06
that they're going to need to survive and thrive on the planet?
28:10
And the same with a horse.
28:11
How do you give a horse that life insurance?
28:13
Because of course it is a domesticated animal, and you may very well pass
28:18
that horse on to somebody else.
28:20
Yeah.
28:20
And you want that horse to have a good outcome.
28:23
So if you have just a private language between yourself and
28:26
that horse, well, that's great as long as it's just the two of you.
28:30
But of course, as soon as that equation go, you know.
28:33
So we need something more universal where that horse can find- Yes â¦ you
28:37
know, security at the very least.
28:39
And then a- after that we can talk about happiness and quality of life, because
28:42
there will be a life to make quality.
28:47
But if there is no life, then it's, it's irrelevant.
28:49
So th- this is really my question with the, so, so that, that,
28:53
that, d- my worldview got very affected by this, that, yes, you're
28:57
right, it's, it's very personal.
28:59
One has to design the approach individually, and yet at the same
29:05
time there are universals, which is, you know, the nervous system
29:09
and the brain is paradoxical.
29:12
It's at once very, very individual, and at once it's also very universal.
29:16
So there are rules of thumb one can follow, and then we tweak it to theâ¦
29:21
And that is where I think something like the French Portuguese system is so good
29:24
because I feel it has that flexibility.
29:26
It allows for that.
29:27
It gives one a sort of a framework for a horse and a human to come into a state of
29:33
coherence, and then wherever you go with that is wherever you want to go with that.
29:39
But a little bit like, let's say you want to learn, I don't know,
29:42
salsa, or you want to learn karate.
29:44
There are someâ¦
29:45
Or you want to learn piano.
29:47
There are some steps of the dance or ways to do your finger on the keyboard
29:52
or on the fretboard of the guitar that if you learn them in that quote,
29:57
unquote classical, meaning handed down the generations, if you learn them
30:03
in that way, then you can then take that and do whatever you want with it.
30:08
But it gives you a, you, you at least know the steps of the salsa.
30:12
You at least know the katas of the, of, of the karate or whatever.
30:17
Or you at least know how to make the shapes on the fretboard of
30:20
the guitar to follow a melody.
30:22
Yeah.
30:22
And then what you do with that melody is up to you.
30:24
So yeah, that's my question to you is, is- It's one thing to abandon and say
30:30
it's too pedantic to follow any system at all, but you yourself have learned several
30:37
systems, and I presume that they give you a base from which to break the rules, no?
30:43
Dominique Barbier: Yeah, absolutely.
30:44
Well, you know, they, they, theyâ¦
30:47
as you were saying, if you want to learn an instrument the classical
30:51
way, teach you to be able to play with other people who play classically.
30:57
Mm.
30:57
Therefore, do you have the, you have the, you know, you need to know how to
31:01
put your finger on the, on the piano to, to, to, to get your technique.
31:05
That's no problem at all.
31:07
You have to learn that.
31:08
But after that- Mm â¦ your goal, what is your goal?
31:12
Right.
31:13
Dominique Barbier: Is, is your goal, as I say, it's not a, a, a, to teach
31:18
a monkey 100 word of English is, is a wonderful because you are going to get a,
31:24
a, a monkey speaking English at the end.
31:27
But really does that going to teach you how to speak monkey?
31:31
No.
31:32
We're not gonna learn about monkey if we want to them to speak our language.
31:38
We need to speak the horse's language.
31:42
Mm-hmm.
31:42
We need to be a horse.
31:45
We need to give them a voice, and that's what you did for your kid, for example.
31:49
Mm-hmm.
31:49
Because you, you could not as a human react.
31:52
He was different, and you were different, therefore you become him.
31:56
Well, we need to become horse.
31:58
We need to become a, a, a, a people that don't aggress them first.
32:04
Mm.
32:04
And then after, after that, we can do any, any, everything we want to do.
32:08
I always say, you know, people say, "Oh, I don't want to make mistake."
32:11
I say, "No, you are going to make mistake."
32:14
Mm.
32:14
Everybody makes mistake.
32:15
That's the way you, you, you learn.
32:17
That's the human experience, but your heart is in the right place.
32:22
You want to be part of that relationship with them, and you want
32:28
to have them really okay with you.
32:31
And if that- Yeah,
32:31
I think, I think that's, that's often overlooked.
32:34
One is put in
32:36
Dominique Barbier: such different- It is completely overlooked
32:37
places.
32:37
It is completely overlooked.
32:38
Mm.
32:38
Let me tell you, you, you talk about the French Portuguese, Mm â¦ people.
32:42
With all due respect, I, I have the, those poor Portuguese people they
32:48
learned the French, and thank God to, to, to, to my master to be Portuguese
32:53
and, and carry on when nobody in France was there to, to, to do it.
32:56
But-
32:57
You're talking about
32:58
Dominique Barbier: Nuno?
32:58
Yes.
32:58
Yeah.
32:59
About the, about the mystery.
33:00
Yeah.
33:01
And the, and the, and, and I think that, that, that that what is important there
33:07
is to, is to, is to, is to re- it's
33:11
to real- realize where you want to position yourself in all that.
33:17
Where do you want to be with yourself?
33:20
Yes.
33:20
And, and, and without using a big word, but I'm, I'm, I'm,
33:25
I am going to use a big word.
33:26
There, there is a level of consciousness that we need to, to, to be at.
33:32
And- I, I, I ho- I wholeheartedly agree.
33:34
And every, every one of the really good, let's call them masters for
33:39
want of a better word, who â¦ Of these dead dudes the, these just old
33:45
masters, whatever we want to call them, who left these books for us, they
33:49
more or less all say the same thing.
33:51
I mean, if you, if you're reading Xenophon, he's saying
33:54
you must make the appropriate offerings to the appropriate gods.
33:57
You must put yourself in the right- mind and spirit when
34:03
you're approaching a horse.
34:05
Which is interesting because in his state of consciousness, you think,
34:08
there's a little part of me that goes, "Yeah, Xenophon, but you own slaves.
34:11
What about that?"
34:12
Okay, but let's leave that aside.
34:14
Or when you have you know, Pluvinel in the 17th century going to the
34:18
French king and saying, "Listen, our aristocracy's out of control.
34:22
We've had 100 years of religious and civil wars, and we will never match Spain until
34:29
we can get control of our ruling class."
34:32
And one of the things, as Xenophon said about training a horse in
34:35
this three-dimensional way that we call dressing the horse is that it
34:39
requires you to control your emotions.
34:41
So, "Sire, I propose that we create these academies in
34:45
France sponsored by the state.
34:48
You know, that the sons of our nobility can go to so they don't have to be like
34:52
me and go down to s- Italy to learn it, and they will learn to control their
34:57
emotions so that they can actually run the country and not destroy it."
35:01
And so this idea of emotional br- bringing one's consciousness to a point,
35:07
as you just said, where it's possible to think in three dimensions as a human
35:13
so that one can ask a horse to lend us its three-dimensional power in order
35:21
to go and do things is, of course, if it's, if it's approached in that
35:26
way, a very good exercise for a human.
35:30
So I think, I think people have been aware of this, you know, probably
35:34
since the Bronze Age since people were first started, starting to do this.
35:38
And, and I bet it always divided it a little bit into the camps of
35:43
those who just wanted to physically do it and those who saw a portal to
35:49
greater consciousness through it.
35:51
Today though, if you've got somebody who wants to, as you say, enter horse.
35:57
Like f- for me, what I had to do with Rowan, with my son to learn with him
36:03
was to follow him, simply to follow him.
36:07
And in the course of that, I- Could identify patterns and then see what
36:13
was positive and what was worth following and what was negative
36:17
and needed healing and assuaging.
36:19
And try, and gradually introduce skills through the things that he
36:24
was interested in anyway, and that, to be honest, is how anybody learns.
36:26
I mean, I speak French, and I learned French on the back of a horse.
36:29
You speak English, you learned English on the back of a horse.
36:32
I speak German now, I learned that on the back of a horse.
36:34
Because just because I was interested to be there, and certain things go on in the
36:39
brain when you move and problem-solve.
36:41
Okay, all of that is true.
36:42
Now, most people who own horses do not have the time to follow a horse like I
36:50
followed Rowan, and most of the people who own a horse have a job, and they have
36:55
a family, and they probably have to keep their horse in an imperfect situation at a
37:02
riding club or a public stable where they are not in control of the environment,
37:07
how much the, of a herd that horse gets to live in, how much outside time that horse
37:13
gets, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
37:15
How do people in this position, which is the realityâ¦
37:19
We don't want to shame them.
37:21
We don't want to say, "Oh, you shouldn't be," you know.
37:23
And, and they don't h- they're not lucky.
37:25
They're not like me.
37:25
They don't have Andalusia as their backyard or, or you know, the
37:29
state of Wyoming as their backyard.
37:31
How can they achieve what you're talking about?
37:37
Dominique Barbier: Well, you know, life will tell them what it is
37:42
Mm.
37:43
Dominique Barbier: Life in their own way will will teach
37:48
them what they have to learn.
37:50
You, you learn all that stuff because you know, life, God give you, give
37:55
you a kid that was different, and and they give me a horse who was
37:59
different, and then I was interested into, into m- my- the, the horse that
38:06
I learned the most was Don Giovanni.
38:08
Mm.
38:08
Don Giovanni.
38:09
And Don Giovanni was a, was a horse that taught me
38:14
95% of everything I know, because he did not do it the way I knew.
38:20
Okay.
38:20
I had to, I had to, I had to find another way for him.
38:24
I had to completely turn myself upside down and, and just just
38:29
learn that I did not know anything, and I would learn from him.
38:34
And-
38:35
Can you tell us, give us a biography of this horse.
38:37
How did he enter yourâ¦
38:38
How old were you?
38:38
How did he enter your life?
38:40
Well- And tell us a little bit that story
38:42
â¦ Dominique Barbier: yes, Don Giovanni was a extraordinary horse.
38:46
I, I had I, I was in Portugal, and I bought my first horse with the Mestre
38:56
It was a, was a half-brother of a horse that he had, and,
38:59
and Pascoal was my first horse.
39:01
And I I wanted an, I wanted another horse, and at that time Senior Engineer
39:08
Fernando Dan- Dan- Andrade was a, was a good friend of the m- of the
39:14
Mestre and and certainly one of the most important breeder in Portugal.
39:19
And-
39:19
You were saying Mestre, notâ¦
39:21
Just for the listeners, just an, an accent thing, Dominic's not saying mystery here.
39:24
He's saying Mestre.
39:26
He means master.
39:26
Mestre.
39:27
A master, correct.
39:27
And he means Master Nuno Oliveira- Yes â¦ and we're going to find out how
39:31
he first- Yeah â¦ found his way to Nuno.
39:32
Okay, so a friend of N- of Nuno's- Yes
39:35
This Andrade dude who a lot of people don't know, but the
39:38
Andrade family in Portugal is synonymous with the Lusitano horse.
39:46
Let's just leave it there for a moment.
39:48
Okay, so you are lucky enough to know Nuno.
39:51
You're lucky enough to know this sort of- deity of the Portuguese horse
39:59
Senhor Andrade, and y- is, is it through him that you get Don Giovanni?
40:04
Dominique Barbier: Yeah, he amazingly enough, he, he,
40:07
he was over there and heâ¦
40:08
You know, I have a, in my life, a, a series of, of, of, of event where
40:13
very incredible, for example, Mr.
40:16
Andrade invited me to go to, to his to his quinta on the, on the Golganda,
40:23
and I spent a week there with him, with their family, which was unheard of.
40:27
I never- Mm â¦ seen anybody doing that.
40:29
But long story short, I was looking for another, another horse, and this,
40:35
those horses were very expensive.
40:37
Like you say, he wa- he was one of the top three or four top breeders that represent
40:43
the breed of the Lusitanos there.
40:45
Over
40:45
centuries, yeah.
40:46
Dominique Barbier: Yeah.
40:46
Over century, with the Vega- Exactly
40:48
with the Vegas and the- Mm-hmm â¦ Bragas and all those.
40:51
Mm-hmm.
40:51
And and I, I went there and I saw those horses, and I was passing by
40:56
and I was you have to understand, I was there during the revolution, yes?
41:00
Mm.
41:00
Sev- sev- '75 in Portugal, and a lot of, a lot of social movement was happening
41:08
there And I saw that horse actually chained down to, to to a, to a stall.
41:17
Like, you know, the, all the people don't know that, but the Portuguese horses at
41:23
that time, and the, the horses in the world at that time, were in tie stalls.
41:28
They were not in in the box stall, like they call them.
41:32
Mm-hmm.
41:32
Only Thoroughbred were in box stall because they couldn't be tied.
41:35
Mm-hmm.
41:36
Therefore, every working horse or every horse was in a tie stall.
41:40
They eat in the front and they poop at the back.
41:42
They were led to water three time a day.
41:45
Mm-hmm.
41:45
That was their life, and then they work.
41:48
Therefore, I saw that poor horse there, and I, and I was really amazed by,
41:53
by, by him, and I wanted to see him, and he says, "No," I could not see him
41:58
because he injured one of his worker, and he was going to be destroyed.
42:04
And he, he, he, he was a striker.
42:07
He used to strike with his front leg.
42:09
Mm-hmm.
42:09
Dominique Barbier: Anyway, therefore, I insisted and I insisted, and he, he
42:15
turned him loose for me, and the horse was completely v- very, very tight.
42:21
He, he, he had a beautiful walk and, and canter, but the, the trot was
42:26
just, like, nonexistent, and he was so, so tense and tight mentally that
42:32
he was not moving his body at all.
42:34
But somehow I had these things about him.
42:37
Therefore, I went back home and, and I talked to the mister, and the mister say,
42:41
"Oh, only me can train those horses when they are crazy, and I just cannot tell,
42:46
tell you what what is what is happening."
42:49
And are you still there?
42:50
Yes.
42:51
And an- anyway, long story short, my, my, my-- he said,
42:55
"No, you, you can't have him."
42:57
And, and then my mother came for dinner, and he said, the mister, he
43:01
said, "Oh your mother is so beautiful.
43:04
You can have your horse."
43:05
Anyway, lots of, lots of end of a dinner conversation I could have
43:10
my horse, and then I- I, I had him for to come into my place.
43:15
The, the the thing was that if I could ride him after a month, I could keep him.
43:20
If not, then he would be destroyed.
43:22
Therefore I arranged him to come to the farm.
43:25
It took five people for me to sit on him the first day, and then I, for
43:29
at least 10 days, I faced the wall because I could not have him straight.
43:34
He was not possible.
43:36
And anyway, nothing works, therefore I, I had to change so many things that I did.
43:44
I, I was I, I, I was in passage before I was in trot- Mm-hmm â¦ because
43:49
the, the poor horse could not relax.
43:51
Mm.
43:51
The poor horse, things, I mean, hundreds of stories just like that.
43:55
The long story that, that I'm telling you is that this horse was so different from
44:00
everybody else, that if I wanted to be learning something, I want it to be him.
44:07
I had
44:07
to be- But how did you find your way into him?
44:10
Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if you followed any of my work, I'm
44:13
an autism dad and we have a whole career before this podcast in helping
44:20
people with neurodivergence, either who are professionals in the field.
44:25
Are you a therapist?
44:26
Are you a caregiver?
44:28
Are you a parent?
44:29
Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?
44:33
When my son, Rowan, was diagnosed with autism in 2004,
44:38
I really didn't know what to do.
44:40
So I reached out for mentorship, and I found it through an amazing adult
44:45
autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.
44:48
Temple Grandin.
44:49
And she told me what to do.
44:51
And it's been working so amazingly for the last 20 years.
44:55
That not only is my son basically independent, but we've helped
45:00
countless, countless thousands of others reach the same goal.
45:04
Working in schools, working at home, working in therapy settings.
45:09
If you would like to learn this cutting edge, neuroscience backed
45:14
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45:16
You can learn it online, you can learn it very, very simply.
45:20
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45:23
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45:26
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45:30
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45:34
Go to this website, newtrailslearning.
45:39
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45:42
Take the online movement method course.
45:45
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45:50
We really want to know.
45:51
We really want to help people like me, people like you, out there
45:55
live their best life, to live free, ride free, see what happens.
45:59
Dominique Barbier: Circumstances.
46:01
I think he was in tie stall that I told you, and then he, he kick
46:05
another horse, and I had to, I think, seven injection at that time.
46:09
You know, the antibiotics were not com- go- compound then, therefore
46:13
you had to have seven of them a day.
46:16
And, and I was injecting him seven time a day.
46:18
And, and and, and then after that, I had to, I had to step-by-step listen to him.
46:26
I had to step-
46:26
Talk us through that process.
46:29
Dominique Barbier: Well, I, I, I was in a situation where everything that I
46:34
was learning or, or, or that I, I had learned basically did not work with
46:40
him I mean, I hate to say that, but a little bit like when you, when you were
46:45
a young man and then you had that kids.
46:47
Yeah, sure.
46:47
And then, you know, y- those, those rule don't apply to-
46:51
Right.
46:52
So Iâ¦
46:52
But I could talk you through how I found my way.
46:57
Talk us through how you found your way.
47:00
Like, take us chronologically.
47:03
How did you find your way into Don Giovanni?
47:06
Dominique Barbier: Well, I think the, the, the big thinking there that I realized
47:10
that was, was I needed to be mental because the physicality did not work.
47:17
He was so tight and so tense that whatever I was doing physically, it did not work.
47:24
Okay.
47:24
Therefore, I needed to find another way, and the other way was to try to, to, to,
47:30
to communicate with that brain that he- Mm-hmm â¦ that, that, that, that, that,
47:35
that was there and very, very powerful.
47:37
Very, very strong.
47:39
And also I can't say dangerous, but, but dangerous because he
47:43
did not accept an- anything.
47:45
Therefore, what I did is I did my three steps.
47:49
I, Iâ¦
47:50
After I sat on him, after I was straight, after I could
47:53
walk I was doing three steps.
47:56
One, two, three, let the rein go long.
47:59
His nose was on the ground.
48:00
Then I used to pick up my rein and go one, two, three steps until, and repeat
48:06
this, and repeat this, and repeat this until we become, we became one.
48:11
Until I can prove to him that I could do whatever he wanted the way
48:15
he wanted to, and I was listening.
48:18
And then he said that was okay.
48:21
What did you find that he really liked?
48:24
How did you t- how did you f- how did you find his preferences and
48:28
his enjoyment and his pleasure, and then how did you tweak your way of
48:34
riding and training to follow that?
48:37
Dominique Barbier: What I told you be- before, you have to learn that you have to
48:41
spend 90% of your time not bothering them.
48:45
Mm-hmm.
48:47
Dominique Barbier: Give them clear thinking, like three steps, stop,
48:50
long neck, short neck, shorter rein and walk, and very simple
48:55
task, and get out of the way.
48:58
Do not do anything.
49:00
Mm-hmm.
49:01
Do not use your leg, do not use your hand, do not do anything.
49:04
Just sit there and wait.
49:07
Because he could not, he could not take the contact.
49:10
He, he c- he could, he never touched the, the rein, and certainly
49:14
could not touch him with my leg.
49:16
And, and the seat, I was sitting on him because I was sitting on, on
49:20
him, but that was not his choice.
49:22
Therefore, if I decide to do that, which was my problem, if I can say
49:26
that, then I had to learn the, to learn the, the, the story after
49:31
that and what should I do or not do.
49:34
I learned a lot of thing that I should not do with him.
49:37
What should you not do?
49:39
Dominique Barbier: Use my leg, use my- Mm-hmm â¦ use, use, u- p-
49:43
ph- the physicality did not work.
49:45
Absolutely.
49:46
And then did you find that there were certain things he really enjoyed doing?
49:53
Dominique Barbier: Yeah, I think he he ultimately, You know, I always said,
49:57
said that to people, that we want to dance with the horses, but I never saw
50:01
horses bring me the saddle and say, "Dad, I want to dance with you," okay?
50:05
Therefore, it's a really one-sided, the dance kind of thinking, yeah?
50:09
A little bit like human dance.
50:10
You invite somebody to dance, and if they like to dance with
50:14
you, they are going to say yes.
50:15
If they don't like to dance, they will tell you no.
50:18
Mm-hmm.
50:19
Dominique Barbier: But how many people do this with the horses?
50:22
Well, right, but that's why I'm asking for specifics, 'cause
50:24
people often ask me this.
50:25
I'll give you an example, perhaps, to make it clearer.
50:27
Yes.
50:28
So, like you said, in England, you, you had some experience with some hunting.
50:32
I grew up doing a lot of that.
50:34
And I observed that most horses enjoyed it, because why?
50:40
They were out with their friends.
50:42
Yes.
50:42
Yeah.
50:42
They wereâ¦
50:43
They, so they're in a herd, they're crossing country, they're using their
50:46
brains, they're having adventures.
50:49
They'reâ¦
50:50
It's, it's really designed.
50:51
It d- it really doesn't matter whether the person on top rides badly or
50:55
well, the horse is kind of okay.
50:58
And- Yeah.
50:58
They
50:58
Dominique Barbier: have to, they have to â¦ so.
51:00
Right.
51:00
So when I, when I began my dressage adventure, I realized I want
51:06
that f- I want to have a horse that has that feeling of joy.
51:09
Because also, the reason I'm even doing this dressage is so that I can work with
51:13
an autistic child in collection, and I need to transmit wellbeing to this child.
51:20
And if the horse has no wellbeing, well, there is no wellbeing to transmit.
51:23
So I do know one good picture- Very good â¦ of wellbeing.
51:26
Right.
51:26
So I, I had that as a, as a, as a, if you like, an example to follow.
51:30
Yeah,
51:31
Dominique Barbier: sure.
51:31
So now when I'm training horses you know, obviously I, I do a lot
51:35
of, I do almost all of it on the ground before I go into the saddle.
51:38
But I really look to see what they show me that they like.
51:43
And because I have this background in hunting, I usually take them
51:46
out into nature, and I see, what do they kind of like to do?
51:51
Like, some of them really love jumping, and some of them really
51:54
love solving little puddles solve, solving little puzzles, rather, of,
52:00
Terrain, and others really need a sense of security from another horse,
52:05
and others like to be out in front.
52:08
And so I can, I can sort of see the horse's preferences to some degree by
52:14
taking them out like that, and then I can say, "Okay, this French-Portuguese
52:18
system that I'm working to, I can tweak it to their preferences because they've
52:23
shown me what the preference is."
52:25
And then the other thing which I've often found is that horses are made to
52:29
go to work before they've played, which is often where a lot of things go wrong.
52:34
And it was Master Valenza who really showed me that.
52:37
He said, "Let the horse play first in an anarchy phase, and then when his
52:42
brain is sort of ready, then present him with something that you want to learn."
52:48
I was like, "My God, that makes so much sense."
52:50
So now I take it to the extreme where frequently I have this whole thing called
52:55
crazy time, particularly because for about five years I had in Germany to
53:00
keep my horse, horses, in a riding stable where in the winter they barely got out.
53:07
And so I s- learned how to use the indoor arena as a whole playground, and with free
53:12
jumping and all sorts of fun activities, and I would end up putting them in there.
53:16
I wouldn't even need to tell these horses to jump.
53:17
They'd just go and have all kinds of fun.
53:20
And then when I then wanted to say, "Okay, now let's look at some dressage
53:24
stuff," they'd be like, "Yeah, sure.
53:26
Absolutely, yeah.
53:27
Here I am.
53:27
I'm full of endorphins, and my mind is ready and open, and I feel good,
53:31
so yeah, show me what you got."
53:33
Or now if I go into the arena and I just feel that my horse is just
53:38
not there, I'm like, "No problem.
53:40
I will just turn right around and go into the forest and maybe try a little bit
53:44
of what I wanted in the forest, and then tomorrow maybe we come back to the arena."
53:48
So this thing about letting horses show you their preferences can be
53:54
quite spec- quite concrete and easy to follow, and I think people need more
53:59
than the esoteric for these things.
54:02
Because the esoteric comes in anyway.
54:05
The spiritual comes in anyway because you're dealing with a hu- a monkey and
54:10
a pony, you know, both products of the greater consciousness, if you will.
54:15
So any time that you're interacting, that spirituality is going
54:19
to obviously- Come into play.
54:23
But I think people are often really lost, and it is helpful for them, particularly
54:29
when they're looking to a sort of elder statesman like you, Dominique.
54:33
If you say, "Yeah, listen, I have this really difficult horse."
54:36
And you, that was very good what you gave us.
54:39
One, two, three, let the rein go.
54:41
One, two, three, let the rein go.
54:43
But there must have been a host of other things with this particularly
54:47
difficult and dangerous horse that might have been destroyed if he
54:52
hadn't been lucky enough to meet you.
54:55
So what, h- what, how did you create the framework of, of
54:59
observation of what he liked, and what did he show you that he liked?
55:07
Dominique Barbier: It's a very good question.
55:09
To tell you the truth, I, I in the lunging of the horse, the first in the
55:14
Portuguese system, as you call it, or the French system, the first part of
55:19
the lunging is a, is a free lunging- Mm-hmm â¦ is just a enjoyment, yes?
55:24
Yeah.
55:24
Enjoyment.
55:24
If the, if it's cold or-
55:25
Anarchy phase
55:26
you get very messy â¦ like the events occurs it, yeah.
55:27
Dominique Barbier: Yeah.
55:28
That's a, that's a fun stuff.
55:30
Yeah.
55:30
And then they, they say, "And then after that one is done, then, then,
55:33
then we go to a little routine of what we decide to do on that day."
55:38
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
55:39
And then you, you have some sort of a plan.
55:41
I say you always have a plan, and then after that you have a plan
55:44
because you have to change it- Yeah
55:46
because something else happened.
55:48
Therefore you know, I, I, I, I, I, as you, as you know, I am a teacher and, and I,
55:54
and I have my people smiling a, a lot.
55:57
Mm.
55:58
I think that if, if you smile, you, you have more people smiling around you.
56:04
That's just- Mm â¦ basic things of life.
56:06
If you have very serious phase because you're-
56:09
concentrating on things, it's just not a very positive thing,
56:13
especially for the, for the animals.
56:16
Yeah.
56:16
Dominique Barbier: I think that the, the, the, the enjoyment of them is
56:22
by feeling that there is something happening between you and them
56:28
Go on
56:29
â¦ Dominique Barbier: I, I think that's exactly what it is.
56:32
I I, s- you know, if you, if you, if you let a horse alone on the
56:38
field with another horse, yeah, the first thing he does, they eat.
56:42
They, they like to eat because that's sur- survival and it's very important for them.
56:47
And then they, if they have a mate, well, they sometimes they play a
56:50
little bit, or they don't play.
56:52
They, they like to know what their number is, if number one, number two, and I
56:57
can move towards you and you run away from me, and that type of of thinking.
57:01
And and after that, it's it's all the some sort of imagination of of what you were
57:07
telling us about you, what, what make them please and what make them don't please.
57:12
Mm.
57:12
Really if you, as, as you were saying, the extreme people they, they, they
57:17
like them in the field and, and taking pictures, which I think is fabulous.
57:22
Mm.
57:22
I think if you don't want to do anything with your horse, I think
57:25
taking pictures in a beautiful field, and feeding them, and calling the vet
57:28
and all that is, is a fantastic thing.
57:30
Yeah,
57:30
there's nothing wrong with that.
57:31
Yeah,
57:31
Dominique Barbier: sure.
57:31
There's nothing wrong with that.
57:32
Now, if you want to have some sort of play with them, then play with them.
57:37
Mm, mm.
57:37
Dominique Barbier: It could be jumping, it could be chasing them,
57:40
it could be you know, the, the, the, the, the working in freedom.
57:44
You can have so many different ways to, to look at at your life because
57:49
it is your life in relation with them.
57:51
Mm, mm.
57:52
I think, I think what stands out from what you just said is play w- and
57:56
back to Don Giovanni then, how did you find what how he liked to play?
58:01
How did Don Giovanni like to play?
58:03
Dominique Barbier: He loved to passage.
58:05
Okay.
58:06
Dominique Barbier: He said, "You see, I don't like anything, I really don't.
58:09
But if you don't move, I am going to give you a passage who's gonna knock you down."
58:14
And even after that when he was a, w- when I was giving lesson with him,
58:18
he used to torture people by having, saying, "Hey, you know something?
58:22
I have this gift for you, and if you sit there, don't touch me.
58:27
If you just sit there, I will give you the best passage feeling
58:32
you can have in your life."
58:34
Yes.
58:35
And then after that, he learned how to do his little levade.
58:38
The levade was a good trick for him.
58:40
Mm-hmm.
58:41
Because he, he, he was like a kid, you know.
58:43
He had tricks, therefore I can do that for you even if you don't ask.
58:47
Right.
58:48
And that, and that's why he was, he was kind of a little tricky, at the beginning.
58:52
But, but they, they, they offer you stuff, and, and- Yes â¦ I think that's
58:55
the way a good dancer tell his mate that they, they could do that trick
59:00
together and they have a good time.
59:02
Yes.
59:03
Yes.
59:03
I think, I think that that'sâ¦
59:05
So this is, there's some real clues here.
59:08
So listeners, I'm just addressing the listeners and, and watchers now.
59:11
If you, if you have been listening to this since the beginning,
59:16
you will remember that Dominique said this horse was a striker.
59:21
He liked to use his front hooves, and initially he was using them
59:26
in a way that was not conducive to human and monkey happiness.
59:31
Some people got hurt, and, but this is in stallions, particularly
59:35
some stallions, particularly stallions from that Andrade line.
59:38
Why do I know this?
59:39
'Cause I got one.
59:41
And yes, they like to use their front legs, and then one can say, "Okay, I can
59:46
either go with this or not go with this.
59:49
And if I go with this, perhaps I could end up with him showing me how he would
59:56
like to use this expression that could end up in very beautiful Spanish walk,
1:00:02
or very beautiful passage," in a w- ver- even the, even the levade is, is
1:00:07
related to that in a way that pleases him and allows him to feel fulfilled.
1:00:12
Or I could say, "No, no, that's not safe," and try to shut the
1:00:15
behavior down and go against it.
1:00:18
Now if you are not lucky enough to have the type of- instruction
1:00:25
that Dominique had from M- MÃ¡rcio Nuno Oliveira, and we need to find
1:00:31
out how you found your way to him.
1:00:32
I've been lucky too.
1:00:34
I've, I've had much instruction from Mr.
1:00:37
ValenÃ§a and the ValenÃ§a family, who are related to N- Nuno and that line.
1:00:44
Had I not lucked into that, I might not have known how, with my own horse, Zag,
1:00:51
to go through a rather similar process that you've, you've talked about of
1:00:56
this horse would do all kinds of things.
1:00:58
But he was also brilliant, and I could tell he was generous.
1:01:02
But it was a lot about getting out of the way and what, he, he, he told
1:01:06
me, showed me exactly what you've described, Dominique, which is that I
1:01:10
had to neutralize my legs and my seat.
1:01:14
And it took me about, I don't know, two and a half years to really do that.
1:01:20
Because as a jumping rider, of course, you, you close the leg and put power in
1:01:25
your leg, 'cause you have to, otherwise when you land, you will fall off.
1:01:30
And I'm still a jumping rider, so now I've just learnt to be versatile.
1:01:33
When I'm jumping, I can, I can use this bit of muscle.
1:01:36
When I'm not jumping, I, this dressage thing, I'm not going to use it.
1:01:39
But of course, it took me a while to get there.
1:01:41
As soon as I stopped using my legs and my seat, oh, my gosh,
1:01:46
did this horse show me things.
1:01:48
And it's very, very similar to what you've said.
1:01:50
He, he has this, he's also an Andrade.
1:01:52
He has this absolutely extraordinary passage that he'll give you.
1:01:57
He'll also go into a kind of perma piaffe, if you'll let him and have
1:02:01
a lot of fun with that, sometimes with a bit of a sense of humor.
1:02:05
And there's a joy to it, where I don't feel I'm making him
1:02:11
piaffe or I'm making him passage.
1:02:15
Quite the opposite.
1:02:16
I feel I'm getting out of his way so that he, like James Brown, can get
1:02:21
up there- Yes â¦ and do his thing.
1:02:22
Now, but it took a horse almost that extreme to really make me neutralize.
1:02:33
And then I realized, of course, every other horse I got on that was
1:02:36
not an Andra- you know, a brilliant Andrade, complex Andrade Lusitano.
1:02:42
Every time I get on a Quarter Horse now, every time I get on a Thoroughbred, every
1:02:45
time I get on a Warmblood, every time I get on a cob, I now ride with this
1:02:49
neutrality, and oh, my gosh, do they show me stuff But nobody told me this.
1:02:57
And it's so interesting that even in, like, the works of Nuno
1:03:03
Oliveira, which we can read and reread and reread, he hints at this.
1:03:08
He goes round the mountain about it, but he doesn't just tell you to do it.
1:03:14
It would beâ¦
1:03:15
And I do feel that it's, you know, life is short and we
1:03:20
shouldn't be torturing people.
1:03:23
W- you know, so, so for example, when, when you stumble into something like
1:03:27
what you stumbled in with John- Don Giovanni, I don't think that that
1:03:30
is specific only to Don Giovanni.
1:03:33
I think Don Giovanni is just an extreme enough horse that he will ac- accept
1:03:37
nothing else But th- then I'm pretty sure, I bet you that when Dominique Barbier
1:03:42
gets on another horse, he rides that other horse pretty much as if he was sitting
1:03:47
on Don Giovanni, and allows that other horse to show him what he wants to do.
1:03:52
Would I, would I be right in assuming that?
1:03:55
Dominique Barbier: Yeah, absolutely.
1:03:56
Yeah.
1:03:56
Dominique Barbier: Absolutely.
1:03:57
And, and, and you, and your comment about the, the, the mystery, you, you have to
1:04:02
understand that at the time of where they lived they were not telling you stuff.
1:04:07
Yeah.
1:04:08
You know?
1:04:08
Dominique Barbier: There was aâ¦
1:04:09
There's a little bit of a, of a, of a funny business telling
1:04:13
stories about the mystery, now everybody's a student now- Yeah
1:04:17
suddenly.
1:04:18
And, and what is, what is fascinating is that the, the, the man really
1:04:23
did not give you anything.
1:04:25
He was hinting you, as you said.
1:04:28
He was not telling you.
1:04:30
He was putting you into a situation where where things can happen.
1:04:34
Mm-hmm.
1:04:34
And that was his great, hi- hi- his great mastery.
1:04:37
That was, that was what he was doing.
1:04:39
If you, if you, if you read the, the first chapter of nearly all of my
1:04:44
books, I tell the story that changed my life about that great big horse that
1:04:48
was able to, to collect himself on, on the loose rein- Mm â¦ just with the
1:04:54
upper part of the body back, and that- Mm â¦ changed, that changed my life.
1:04:58
Mm.
1:04:58
That changed my whole aspect of thinking, how could you collect a
1:05:02
horse just having your upper part of your body going back, up, and back?
1:05:07
Yeah.
1:05:07
Mm-hmm.
1:05:08
And that was something that 10 days, It was in the old picadero in Lisbon that
1:05:14
it allow me to, to feel that, and that was that was l- life-changing even now,
1:05:20
that descent de main, descent de jambe follows me for everything right now.
1:05:24
Mm.
1:05:25
And not as a, a lot of people think of something that, that can
1:05:29
happen when you get very old and when you have done a lot of things.
1:05:32
It can happen at the walk when you are very young.
1:05:36
Mm-hmm.
1:05:36
Mm-hmm.
1:05:37
Dominique Barbier: And then the-
1:05:37
Absolutely.
1:05:38
Dominique Barbier: No, And if you are, and if you are told that, if you are
1:05:40
told that, that, that just exists.
1:05:43
Yeah.
1:05:43
Dominique Barbier: But that'sâ¦
1:05:43
But at that time, n- you know, at that time, the, the great cooks
1:05:47
were were having those r- cooking recipes that they keep secret.
1:05:53
Mm-hmm.
1:05:53
And then they, they realized they could make millions by writing
1:05:56
cooking books and, and, and writing all those secret recipes and, and
1:06:02
realizing that people still can't cook.
1:06:06
It's just, it is
1:06:08
just not a matter of the recipes.
1:06:08
Yes, but I'm a, I'm a, I'm a great believer in the, in the, the
1:06:11
transmission and dissemination of clear information, and I'll tell you why.
1:06:15
Yeah.
1:06:15
Because I feel that that- aids happiness.
1:06:18
I've seenâ¦
1:06:19
So for example, let's just move away from horses for a second.
1:06:22
You know, in my work with human rights or in my work with autism, there are
1:06:28
things that are really, really useful for people to know about some sort of
1:06:33
basic neuroscience the neuroscience of happiness, the neuroscience of
1:06:36
unhappiness and how one can move- Yeah
1:06:38
between them.
1:06:39
Or, you know, wi- within human rights, certain aspects of how to prove ancestral
1:06:48
ownership of land so that if you go into a courtroom it will stand up, you know?
1:06:53
And those people can- Yeah.
1:06:54
Yeah â¦ will mo- not be on the street anymore and go back to
1:06:57
their forest or, or whatever it is.
1:06:59
And I feel that within- the, the dressing of the horse, this
1:07:05
dressage business, which can be so joyful and can be so unjoyful.
1:07:10
There are some really clear things which if one follows them, will lead
1:07:19
to joy, and I'm not entirely convinced that those people of the great
1:07:30
Nuno's generation were necessarily concerned that much with human joy.
1:07:37
And the reason- That's- â¦ is because I've met quite a lot of people-
1:07:40
Dominique Barbier: They
1:07:40
were, they were not- I've, I've met qui- I've met quite a lot
1:07:43
of the products - They were not-
1:07:44
of those people â¦ they were not,
1:07:44
Dominique Barbier: they were not necessarily into horses either.
1:07:48
Yes, exactly.
1:07:49
Exactly.
1:07:50
They, human happiness and horse happiness m- wasn't necessarily their primary
1:07:58
motivation, even if they said it was.
1:08:01
There were other more complex demons there, and- Yes â¦ that
1:08:07
were probably not even their fault, you know, just, just, just the-
1:08:11
Dominique Barbier: That's, that's a very nice way to put it, Robert.
1:08:12
Yes.
1:08:13
Dominique Barbier: Very nice.
1:08:14
And, you know, we, we all sort of grew up with this, but I, again, I believe
1:08:18
that it doesn't need to be that way.
1:08:20
So for example, when I'm talking, I, I really have seen that there is an
1:08:24
equation, that if you use crazy time and that sort of playtime, focus playtime,
1:08:30
and nature to see what the horse really kind of enjoys, and then you use this
1:08:35
sort of French-Portuguese system saying, "Okay, I can use lunging to build a horse
1:08:40
physically, and then I can, you know, teach him balance, and then I can also
1:08:43
use in-hand work to show him and myself what are these things that we need to
1:08:48
do to collect before I ride, and I can use long reins a little bit the same."
1:08:53
And then if I then am- put a rider on the horse while I'm on the ground
1:08:58
with the horse doing the thing he already knows on the ground, and I
1:09:01
add a rider's aid to my ground aid, then the horse goes, "Oh, right, yeah.
1:09:06
Sure, that means the same thing.
1:09:07
I accept."
1:09:08
And there's a smooth learning curve, and kind of people progress
1:09:13
happily, and so do the horses.
1:09:16
And I do th- see that absolutely played out time and time again.
1:09:20
Now, to be fair, n- Luis ValenÃ§a showed me that, and, he showed
1:09:25
me how to re- reproduce it.
1:09:27
Where my talent is is that I can put things, I can take things from
1:09:32
esoteric terms and put them in layman's terms because I'm a journalist by
1:09:36
training, but I'm also a great believer that clarity creates happiness.
1:09:42
Because all of the esoteric stuff and all of the complexities and
1:09:47
nuances, they'll come anyway.
1:09:49
We can, we can absolutely rely on life and horses and pa- you know, to
1:09:54
present us with innumerable challenges.
1:09:57
But if we have a basic roadmap to drive from Paris to Leon or London
1:10:03
to York it is really helpful.
1:10:07
And you know, but we, we assume we'll have some adventures along
1:10:10
the way, and it's, and it's good to know how to fill up the, the tank.
1:10:13
I just feel that, you know, when one's piecing together the writings, for
1:10:17
example, of Nu- Nuno Oliveira, when you've been lucky enough, like you have,
1:10:22
to have had the education you have, or lucky enough, like I have, to have sought
1:10:26
out education through someone like Mr.
1:10:27
Valenza, I can then interpret what's being written.
1:10:32
But if you didn't have that, it would be more or less impossible, and I
1:10:39
find that quite sad because there's so much wisdom in there, and people
1:10:45
deserve it and horses deserve it.
1:10:47
If, if we're truly here to try to make a difference in this
1:10:53
happiness-suffering equation surely clarity is helpful in that, is it not?
1:10:59
Dominique Barbier: Yep.
1:10:59
Absolutely.
1:11:00
Yeah.
1:11:01
Dominique Barbier: Clarity and, and and, and clarity of the goals.
1:11:05
Mm.
1:11:05
Again, you know, what w- what do people want?
1:11:09
Mm.
1:11:11
Dominique Barbier: What do pe- we are, we are, we are back to square number one.
1:11:14
Mm.
1:11:14
What do you want out of that relationship?
1:11:18
What, what is the most important part of that relationship, and
1:11:23
what are you gonna do about it?
1:11:26
What do you, when you're teaching, you teach all over the world what's
1:11:30
the number one goal that people tend to tell you that they want?
1:11:36
Dominique Barbier: Well, more and more, and I think it's it's a progress that
1:11:40
way, more and more, they, they verbally want to be closer to their horses.
1:11:49
Mm.
1:11:50
I think from my generation on, where it was pretty much when I was
1:11:57
young we have a, a generation of old gentlemen, old French gentlemen
1:12:04
who used to ride their horses before going to work in the morning.
1:12:07
Mm.
1:12:08
They used to go to the stable, ride the horses, and go to work.
1:12:11
And a- and, and they were very, very nice people.
1:12:15
They were very they read every single book.
1:12:17
They, they study, and they, they really love their horses.
1:12:21
But it was really difficult in public to touch your horse
1:12:26
and sort of af- affectionate.
1:12:28
Interesting.
1:12:28
Dominique Barbier: Because it was a military kind of background.
1:12:31
Mm-hmm.
1:12:31
Mm-hmm.
1:12:32
And it was very manly to do things- Mm-hmm â¦ and this and that.
1:12:35
Mm-hmm.
1:12:36
And you really had to hide to, to be friendly and sweet to your horse.
1:12:41
Interesting.
1:12:42
Dominique Barbier: And, and now, I will tell you it for a simple example,
1:12:46
simple fact, is that most of the, the, the, the women are riding right now.
1:12:52
Less and less men are riding, and more and more women are riding.
1:12:57
And, and women have a sort of a of, of understanding of being together that
1:13:03
men don't- Mm â¦ for a lot of reasons.
1:13:07
Mm-hmm.
1:13:07
Mm-hmm.
1:13:08
And, and, and because of that, and because of the, the ladies
1:13:13
not following the men, the men's standard, they, they can be really
1:13:18
nice to their horses, and that's okay.
1:13:21
They can really enjoy it, and that's okay, and they really look for that.
1:13:25
Now, the way they do it sometime is kind of, a little disappointed.
1:13:29
They are so serious that they lose the joy of, of loving their horses.
1:13:34
But, but, but, but being taught that it's possible to smile and ride at the same
1:13:40
time, and enjoy and feel the joy, and feel the, the, the, the beauty of it.
1:13:46
The beauty come from the joy.
1:13:47
Mm.
1:13:48
I really believe that.
1:13:50
Yeah.
1:13:50
And I, and I think that's my teaching now more and more.
1:13:53
I, I, I want the people to smile when they ride, because if they
1:13:57
don't smile, why are you riding?
1:14:00
Very true.
1:14:00
I mean, the only reason any of us interact with horses at all-
1:14:05
Dominique Barbier: Yeah
1:14:05
â¦ unless we are cowboys or, you know, there are still some small niches
1:14:09
where it is a very practical thing-
1:14:12
Dominique Barbier: Sure
1:14:12
perhaps in the therapy world.
1:14:13
But the only reason any of us interact with horses or ever did was because
1:14:19
it, the horses made us feel good.
1:14:21
They make us feel better.
1:14:23
And then, yeah, we end up for a while in this cage where the very thing
1:14:29
that was making us feel better is now making us feel terrible because-
1:14:33
Dominique Barbier: Yeah
1:14:33
and then hopefully we break out of that cage.
1:14:36
Dominique Barbier: But, but men do that with everything.
1:14:38
Yeah, exactly.
1:14:40
Dominique Barbier: We enjoy it.
1:14:40
Yeah.
1:14:41
We enjoy it, then we don't enjoy it.
1:14:42
Then they're working on it, and then we destroy.
1:14:44
And then we get older and we realize that has nothing to do with that.
1:14:48
But that's, that's against, Rupert, that's, that's a,
1:14:51
that, that's human experience,
1:14:54
you know?
1:14:54
It's so true.
1:14:54
It's so true.
1:14:55
The human- And you were talking about the male to female thing there, and I
1:14:57
was thinking, "Yeah, but I know so many women that make their horses feel sad."
1:15:03
And, you know, so you were describing a male dysfunction from a previous
1:15:07
generation, and now of course with women overtaking the horse world, you see-
1:15:14
Both function and dysfunction, but now through a feminine lens.
1:15:17
So it, w- it's, it's still just people, but I do think you're right, though,
1:15:22
that, that it's now, what women have done is they've made it feel s- us
1:15:25
feel safe to be affectionate towards our horses, which it's a, a very
1:15:30
good point that you make there, which perhaps that wasn't so present before.
1:15:35
Although interestingly, growing up with hunting and that kind of cross-country
1:15:40
riding in the Midlands of England like I did, even though the culture was quite
1:15:48
harsh in some ways, and I would say it was equally men and women out in the
1:15:53
hunt field, it was probably 50/50 Yes.
1:15:54
Dominique Barbier: Yes, it was
1:15:55
â¦ but because I think there's something about trusting your life to the horse
1:15:59
when t- which you do out hunting, because even more than eventing, you know, y-
1:16:03
as you know, you've done it, you, on a really good hunting day, you don't know
1:16:07
what's on the other side of the fence when you go in, and sometimes that's a
1:16:11
not very good surprise, and you trust the horse to get you out of trouble.
1:16:16
Yes.
1:16:16
And so you have this kind of love and this gratitude to the horse.
1:16:19
So I grew up even with those old guys, watching them be very
1:16:23
affectionate to their horses.
1:16:24
I think-
1:16:24
Dominique Barbier: Yes
1:16:25
â¦ there's a different, different ethic there.
1:16:29
But nonetheless, I, I, I do agree that, that people weren't asking the question
1:16:37
so much now, which they're asking is, you know, y- should I even be here?
1:16:42
And how do I, how do Iâ¦
1:16:45
You know, thinking back to all the days when, let's say, I was trying
1:16:48
to get a horse over a jump, and it was a sticky horse, and someone said,
1:16:51
"Just make him do it," you know, and you're sort of 14 years old, you're
1:16:54
thinking, "Oh, gosh, I suppose I have to do this," but you have no idea how.
1:16:58
So they, they tell you to kick, they tell you to hit the horse, so you do.
1:17:02
And then you, you th- you remember this now at our age with sort of
1:17:05
shame and flinching, but at the time you were trying to do what
1:17:09
you were told to do by an adult.
1:17:10
Yeah.
1:17:10
Dominique Barbier: Yeah, yeah.
1:17:11
And-
1:17:12
Dominique Barbier: Learning.
1:17:12
Learning,
1:17:13
Dominique Barbier: learning.
1:17:13
Life
1:17:13
â¦ that, that has, that has gone much w- more, you just don't
1:17:16
really see that so much anymore.
1:17:19
Or, or let's say when you do see it, you, you really kind of notice it now
1:17:22
whereas it used to just be the norm.
1:17:24
Let, and speaking of that generation, just take us back again.
1:17:28
Did you come from a horsey family?
1:17:30
No.
1:17:31
What did your family do?
1:17:32
Dominique Barbier: No.
1:17:33
My I, I was not my family was not horsey.
1:17:36
I was a, a little town boys and Nothing nothing to let me to this to this life.
1:17:42
But my brother was became a, a sailor and organizing regatta around the world,
1:17:48
and he was not a, a sailor either.
1:17:50
My- no- no- nobody at the boat- What town,
1:17:53
what town did you grow up in and, and what did your folks do?
1:17:56
Dominique Barbier: Well, at the, at the beginning we, my first 10 years
1:17:59
of my life was in Cognac, a little town of Charente, the Cognac- I know
1:18:03
that t- I know that town.
1:18:04
Yeah.
1:18:04
Dominique Barbier: And, and my dad was was dealing with, with alcohol and-
1:18:08
Mm-hmm
1:18:08
â¦ Dominique Barbier: and and we had a, we had a big delicatessen type
1:18:12
of place with all the big family of of the Cognac there, you know?
1:18:17
Mm-hmm.
1:18:18
Mm-hmm.
1:18:19
The, the British family and I was there on the, on the, on the Judy with the, with
1:18:23
the, with the, with the nurse- nurses of the kids and all that stuff, you know?
1:18:28
Mm-hmm.
1:18:28
Mm-hmm.
1:18:29
British family, little Hennessy and Camus and, and Otta and all those people.
1:18:33
Mm-hmm.
1:18:33
Mm-hmm.
1:18:34
And and then after that I, I was in, um Uh, I moved two years in Orleans, and
1:18:40
then I went to Poitiers af- after that.
1:18:42
Okay.
1:18:43
Dominique Barbier: And,
1:18:43
Those are all relatively horsey areas of France, though, Gascony,
1:18:46
Poitiers, the Loire Valley.
1:18:48
Dominique Barbier: Yeah.
1:18:49
So there must have been horses around you.
1:18:50
Dominique Barbier: Yeah.
1:18:50
They, they, th- there was a lot of pony clubs type of deal.
1:18:55
Mm-hmm.
1:18:56
And in Poitiers I had the the opportunity to have the, the man
1:18:59
that imported a lot of Irish horses you know, in the, in the '60s.
1:19:05
Mm.
1:19:06
Early '60s a lot of Irish horses came there, and a lot of jumpers.
1:19:11
Mm-hmm.
1:19:11
And then, and then I went to Limoges to, to study with a, with
1:19:16
a gentleman from the Cadenoix.
1:19:17
And and it was on and on, just just the French you know, the French regular stuff-
1:19:23
Mm-hmm
1:19:24
â¦ Dominique Barbier: to learn to learn the basic from the military people.
1:19:28
Right.
1:19:29
And then how did you find your way down to Portugal?
1:19:32
Well, it's- Because this is always a big mind-blower.
1:19:34
When I found my way down to Portugal, it was also, the sort of universe
1:19:38
broke open for me ec- in equestrian way, i- in a very good way.
1:19:42
How did you find your way down there?
1:19:43
What was the story?
1:19:45
Dominique Barbier: Well, the story there is, is that, that I was in, in England
1:19:49
a- and I, and I told myself after all the exam that that I passed in in, in
1:19:54
England I, I wanted to go to Portugal to him, because he had the reputation
1:19:58
of, of who he was, the, the top of the world, especially in, in France.
1:20:03
We were very, I don't know if you know, but in France we have
1:20:05
a lot of Lusitano breeders.
1:20:07
Yes.
1:20:08
Dominique Barbier: And a lot of a lot of people who are
1:20:09
involved in that, in that kind of
1:20:11
competition.
1:20:11
And were, were, but were people breeding Lusitanos even back then?
1:20:14
'Cause I thought it was a bit, a little bit more recent than that.
1:20:16
Dominique Barbier: No.
1:20:17
I mean, I, I mean, they, they, they started it in the '70s, '80s.
1:20:22
Okay.
1:20:23
Yeah.
1:20:23
And it was a, it was a pretty A- anyway, I wanted to go there.
1:20:27
Mm.
1:20:27
And then then I just sort of wrote and just I, I was there
1:20:31
for for a short period of a time.
1:20:34
And then I went to, to the to Colorado.
1:20:40
With a, with a group of of people at that time that started
1:20:43
my, my work in, in America.
1:20:46
And then I went back to, to, to the mystery for, for two years-
1:20:51
Okay
1:20:51
â¦ Dominique Barbier: in the '70s.
1:20:55
You know, '74, '75.
1:20:56
And-
1:20:56
Was it easy, was it easy to have him accept you?
1:20:59
Was it difficult to go and study with him?
1:21:01
Or- Well- â¦ was it relatively straightforward?
1:21:03
Did you sort of show up and say, "Hey, I'm interested," and he-
1:21:06
Dominique Barbier: Well, I think he, he took, at that time, kind
1:21:08
of a anybody or ev- everybody.
1:21:11
There was no money involved.
1:21:13
You know, that the, the, the, the, the mystery was kind of, of
1:21:18
sponsors by- Mm â¦ by a people.
1:21:20
And, and he did not he did not drive a car.
1:21:24
He, he, he, he, he did not do a lot of thing, and his family just lived.
1:21:29
And he had, he trained that one horse- Mm-hmm â¦ a year, that was bought every
1:21:34
year by a, a Belgium gen- gentleman.
1:21:37
Mm-hmm.
1:21:38
And the price of the horse was basically the amount of the
1:21:41
bill of, of the year before.
1:21:44
Okay.
1:21:45
Dominique Barbier: Before he was a, a kind of sponsor, if I can say.
1:21:49
Right.
1:21:50
So, so he was running, Nuno was running his stable as a sort of a laboratory,
1:21:56
which was, Sponsored by certain wealthy folk whose, from Northern
1:22:02
Europe, whose horses he was training.
1:22:04
And so if you showed up as, if you like, a magician's apprentice in the alchemist's
1:22:10
laboratory, he would take you for free?
1:22:13
Was that the case, or did you- That's,
1:22:14
Dominique Barbier: I, I mean, I mean, not for free, but it was
1:22:16
like it was like five francs.
1:22:19
Yeah.
1:22:19
For that
1:22:23
time, not even a, a, a dollar per, per, per lesson.
1:22:23
There, there was no money involved.
1:22:25
But there must have been people, a queue of people outside the
1:22:28
door wanting to do this, so-
1:22:29
Dominique Barbier: Yeah
1:22:30
â¦ how did you, but how did you j- jump the queue?
1:22:32
How did you find your way in there?
1:22:33
Dominique Barbier: Well, gen- gen- generally because the, the,
1:22:36
the queue was generally in the summer, you know, when the- Okay
1:22:40
when we've got a beautiful day.
1:22:41
In the winter, you know, that there was not so much act- â¦ activities, you know?
1:22:45
Yes.
1:22:45
Dominique Barbier: And, and also I I, I had seven horses with me
1:22:49
at, at that time that I that I acquired when I was in Portugal and
1:22:54
training at at the master's place.
1:22:56
Rupert Isaacson: So you could bring those horses.
1:22:58
He had enough space that you could show up with seven horses?
1:23:01
As you may know, if you've been following my work, we are also horsey folk here.
1:23:06
And we have been training horses for many, many years in the manner of
1:23:11
the old classical dressage masters.
1:23:14
This is something which is often very confusing for people.
1:23:17
We shine a light on that murky, difficult stuff and make it crystal clear.
1:23:23
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1:23:27
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1:23:33
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1:23:36
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1:23:40
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1:23:56
Dominique Barbier: Yeah.
1:23:57
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:23:58
I mean, I did not arrive at, at once with seven.
1:24:01
I progressively have another seven.
1:24:04
You know, it's interesting if you, if you think about that now in modern
1:24:06
terms, if someone was to go to, I don't know, one can think of some
1:24:10
big names, it would be impossible to show up now, I think, on those terms
1:24:16
with, and with seven horses and so on.
1:24:18
It, it, it was a different i- a different economy, I suppose.
1:24:21
Dominique Barbier: Yeah, but, but I mean, you know, even now, I mean,
1:24:23
you can, you can, I mean, you know, you, you, you went to, to Luis with,
1:24:27
with no problem, and Luis- Well, I
1:24:30
p- I paid.
1:24:31
But, but then, you know, you either ha- it depends what time
1:24:34
of your life you are, right?
1:24:36
You either pay with your time or you pay with your money.
1:24:39
Yeah.
1:24:39
But, but that, that relationship with the Valences, yes, has evolved into a,
1:24:44
even though I would say they are still my mentors, it's, it's evolved into
1:24:48
more of a collea- collegial thing where I obviously send all my students to
1:24:55
them because that's just common sense.
1:24:57
But yes, I see what you mean.
1:25:00
It, there, there's a point usually where you're paying, and then there's
1:25:02
a point where you're working together.
1:25:04
Right.
1:25:05
That is true.
1:25:06
Yeah.
1:25:06
That is true.
1:25:07
Okay, so here's a slightly tricky one
1:25:14
Many of the people who I have met who were longtime products of L- o- o- of Mr.
1:25:23
Oliveira, with the exception, I would say, of Luis Valencia, even people
1:25:31
who are products of the products of
1:25:36
Nuno, often have carry a certain bitterness
1:25:42
I don't mean bitterness towards the man.
1:25:45
I mean an internal bitterness.
1:25:48
Why do you think that is?
1:25:51
It puzzled me
1:25:53
â¦ Dominique Barbier: can you, can you just tell me a little bit more what
1:25:55
you call this the, the, the, the, the-
1:25:59
A, a, a sort of a misogyny, a sort of a dislike of their fellow human.
1:26:07
And I d- the, and Luis Valenza's an absolute exception to this.
1:26:11
Dominique Barbier: Yeah
1:26:11
he's, he's one of the warmest humans I know.
1:26:13
But, but so many others who I've met who w- there seems to be a, yeah-
1:26:21
Dominique Barbier: Well, can I, can, can,
1:26:22
can- â¦ I can't quite put my finger on
1:26:24
Dominique Barbier: Well, the mys- well, it's, I mean, for me it's very clear.
1:26:27
The, the Mystery was a very complicated man.
1:26:30
Mm.
1:26:31
Dominique Barbier: And a lot of people went there for other purposes than,
1:26:36
than, than, than learning, writing.
1:26:39
Mm-hmm.
1:26:39
Mm-hmm.
1:26:40
And they get, You know, the, the, the, I, I, I, I love my master.
1:26:47
I think I, I learn a, a, a lot from him, and I consider him highly for him as a,
1:26:53
as a, as a trainer and a writer and a man.
1:26:56
But he- his, his life was very complicated.
1:26:59
Mm-hmm.
1:26:59
Mm-hmm.
1:27:00
Mm-hmm.
1:27:00
His life was not very happy.
1:27:03
Mm-hmm.
1:27:04
Yeah.
1:27:04
He had a, you know, he, there was a lot of a challenge that he had to- Mm-hmm
1:27:10
he had to deal with.
1:27:11
And of course, when you have that energy-wise- Mm-hmm â¦ well, the energy
1:27:15
that you spread around is the same.
1:27:17
Again, it's a very personal thing.
1:27:20
Mm-hmm.
1:27:20
You, you talk about Luis.
1:27:22
Luis is always a, a very, a very happy person.
1:27:25
Mm-hmm.
1:27:25
He, he, he, he, he, you come and he has a smile on his face.
1:27:29
Mm-hmm.
1:27:29
Mm-hmm.
1:27:30
Mm-hmm.
1:27:30
It's
1:27:30
Dominique Barbier: very rare.
1:27:31
Yeah.
1:27:31
He, he welcomes you, and
1:27:32
Dominique Barbier: yeah.
1:27:33
Yeah.
1:27:33
Yeah.
1:27:33
And, and, and every day, and every day twice a day- Yeah â¦ or three time a day.
1:27:39
Yeah.
1:27:39
Dominique Barbier: You canâ¦
1:27:40
This i- again, it's a personal attitude.
1:27:42
Now, all the other people they, they, they struggle.
1:27:47
They have a struggle in life, you know?
1:27:49
Mm-hmm.
1:27:50
They, they, they, How can I say that politely?
1:27:53
Everybody carry their own sickness.
1:27:56
Sure.
1:27:57
Sure.
1:27:57
I
1:27:58
Dominique Barbier: mean,
1:27:58
I
1:27:58
Dominique Barbier: th- And,
1:27:58
Yeah
1:27:59
â¦ Dominique Barbier: and, and they get associated to somebody that
1:28:01
make their sickness better or worse.
1:28:03
Let, let me tell you, for, for the two years that I was with with the Mystery
1:28:08
the Mystery as I say, was a very, very close friend to, to me for, for
1:28:14
about maybe nine months or 10 months.
1:28:18
Why?
1:28:18
Because I was honest with him.
1:28:23
What does that mean?
1:28:24
Well, he used to, he used to he, he, he, he used to be a little bit
1:28:30
not sure of a lot of things in life.
1:28:33
Like, he will, he will show you his red shirt and tell you it, it was
1:28:37
black And everybody around him would say, "Oh, yes, your shirt is black."
1:28:42
And then every time he asked me a question, I would ask him, "Mestre,
1:28:46
do you, do you want the answer?"
1:28:48
And because I knew he, he was a little tricky Mm-hmm.
1:28:52
I said, "Do you want the answer?"
1:28:53
And if he said yes, then I will tell him what I thought.
1:28:57
I said- Yeah â¦ "No, this, y- your shirt is red.
1:28:59
It's not black."
1:29:00
Mm.
1:29:01
And, and I think because of that I was honest with him on so many level
1:29:06
that he, he, he enjoyed that because at, at one point he did not know.
1:29:11
He did not know.
1:29:12
There was, there were so many difficulties in his life on so many levels that,
1:29:19
that he could not see straight
1:29:23
When given that there were these complexities and a certain
1:29:26
unhappiness perhaps, why was it that his horses shone so much?
1:29:31
Why did this, why did it, why did this not reflect in his horses?
1:29:36
Dominique Barbier: Well, you are, you are digging very deep there.
1:29:41
I, I am, not to answer your question, I think your your horses
1:29:49
are a reflection of who you are.
1:29:52
Mm.
1:29:53
Dominique Barbier: And he was a very complex person, therefore he had
1:29:56
this very strange energy that he worked with that was very successful.
1:30:02
Now I don't want to be bad, but nobody really interview his horses about it.
1:30:08
Okay.
1:30:10
Yeah.
1:30:11
Okay?
1:30:11
They, again again, the, it's a very personal thing.
1:30:15
The mystery was into what can I do to produce what I want to produce, and he
1:30:21
was producing better than anybody else in the world that I can know about it.
1:30:25
Mm.
1:30:25
Now, w- was the horses involved in that?
1:30:31
I am not sure, not the way I like them to be involved with me.
1:30:35
And I love my master, and I- Yeah â¦ it's not negative things to say about him.
1:30:39
It's, it's, it's a, it's he, he was who he was.
1:30:43
Now you know, I don't know if you know Bettina, Bettina then that left us, yes?
1:30:49
Be- Be- Be- Bettina just worked with him long-
1:30:52
Indeed
1:30:53
â¦ Dominique Barbier: because of his m- of her mother and, and, and-
1:30:55
Mm-hmm
1:30:56
Dominique Barbier: so on.
1:30:57
And, and I was teaching her afterwards, you know.
1:31:00
A- a- anyway Bettina wanted to be him.
1:31:04
Mm.
1:31:06
Dominique Barbier: And, and felt she had to be him for the world.
1:31:09
Right.
1:31:10
Dominique Barbier: And, and I used to have a, a regular fight with her because
1:31:14
I never wanted to be the mystery.
1:31:18
I love him.
1:31:19
I think he's a, he was the greatest man of, of so many things.
1:31:22
Do I want to be him?
1:31:24
No.
1:31:25
Mm.
1:31:26
No, no, no, no, no.
1:31:28
I do not want to be him ever, ever, ever.
1:31:31
I learned a lot from him.
1:31:33
He taught me a lot.
1:31:34
I, I had, certainly, my, my richest time in my book, you know, that,
1:31:40
that I describe, those two years that I had with him was certainly
1:31:43
one of the richest moment of my life.
1:31:46
Mm.
1:31:46
Dominique Barbier: And, and I thank him for that deeply, but do I want to be him?
1:31:50
No.
1:31:51
No.
1:31:52
Dominique Barbier: Absolutely not.
1:31:54
Yeah.
1:31:55
Dominique Barbier: For a lot of reasons.
1:31:57
It's, it's, it's, it's very interesting.
1:32:00
Y- you know, I'm just thinking back to, to the, that book that
1:32:03
you referred to earlier, Dressage for the New Age, that you wrote.
1:32:06
When did you write that book?
1:32:09
Long
1:32:09
Dominique Barbier: ago.
1:32:10
A
1:32:11
while ago.
1:32:11
Yes.
1:32:12
It thir- is it 40 years old, would you say, that book?
1:32:14
Dominique Barbier: Yeah, at least.
1:32:15
Yeah.
1:32:16
45 years old.
1:32:17
And that was one of the first books that I read when I was beginning
1:32:21
my journey into learning how to-
1:32:29
Address this dressing of the horse business.
1:32:32
And I also, you know, had people say, "Oh, you must go and read Oliveira."
1:32:35
And this is, this is when I was just making my first trips down to
1:32:38
Portugal as well, but I, I was not at that point lucky enough to meet Mr.
1:32:43
Balancer.
1:32:44
I was with some other people before I found my way there, and
1:32:48
who didn't explain as clearly.
1:32:50
But I could see that, you know, things worked extremely well.
1:32:54
And I remember taking an exercise from your book and going,
1:32:59
"That looks pretty clear."
1:33:00
And this is back to my, my point about clarity earlier.
1:33:06
Because I'd read, you know, some one or two of Nuno's books, and it was like
1:33:10
reading, I don't know, the, the Book of Enoch in the original Coptic text.
1:33:14
You know, just you could see that there was much in there that was
1:33:17
absolutely wonderful, but I just couldn't make head or tail of it.
1:33:25
Yeah.
1:33:26
And then I read your book, and you s- you said, "Start with this exercise."
1:33:30
You said, "Do this little vault.
1:33:31
Do this little do this little circle in the corner, and then
1:33:36
you'll find that if you can stop-
1:33:41
When you've just gone through the corner and you're on the wall, you'll
1:33:43
find yourself in this thing called the shoulders in, 'cause you'll look at it and
1:33:45
you'll see, look, the ass is on the wall and the shoulders are on the inside track,
1:33:49
so that's why it's called that thing.
1:33:50
And then if you go around again, so take a mental snapshot sort of thing, and then
1:33:54
you go around again, then just see if you can go one or two steps like that.
1:33:58
And I remember reading that and going, "Well, that makes sense And
1:34:04
I went and tried it with my backyard quarter horse, and it worked.
1:34:07
Boom.
1:34:08
And I was like, "Ah, clarity, rationality."
1:34:12
And I remember thinking, I, I'm so grateful to you, Dominique.
1:34:15
So I've sort of been, been following you that way for, for some years.
1:34:19
And then of course when my, our mutual great friend, Jo-Elle Dunlap, who runs
1:34:24
the incredible therapeutic program and thoroughbred aftercare program,
1:34:29
Square Peg Foundation in, in California when she told me she was working with
1:34:34
you, I was like, "Yes, absolutely.
1:34:35
Go work with that man."
1:34:37
Because I remember for me, that opened a door of understanding,
1:34:44
where I was like, "I see."
1:34:46
And then I could go back to what Nuno was writing, go, "Oh, I see, Nuno.
1:34:50
You're sort of telling me to do that, but you just can't bring
1:34:53
yourself to put it in quite such, quite such direct, you know, terms."
1:34:58
Dominique Barbier: Right.
1:34:58
He did not, he did not want it to be clear at that time.
1:35:01
You know?
1:35:01
Yeah.
1:35:01
There was another era.
1:35:03
At that time, you know, you, you sat to, with 10, 12 other stallion,
1:35:09
and you were in the, in line for your shoulder in and your haunch in.
1:35:12
Mm-hmm.
1:35:13
And it was very I hate to say that, but it was very mechanical.
1:35:17
Yeah.
1:35:18
And, and I hate to say that, but it's very mechanical for a lot of people.
1:35:23
Mm.
1:35:24
I mean, even in the Portuguese dep- department.
1:35:27
I mean, they are wonderful riders.
1:35:29
They are wonderful guy, but they are still in a mechanical aspect of their life.
1:35:35
Yeah.
1:35:35
I mean, I think that's a question of, yeah, where one is
1:35:37
in one's personal philosophy.
1:35:40
That's
1:35:40
Dominique Barbier: it.
1:35:40
That's it â¦ you know,
1:35:41
and I wouldn't, I wouldn't put Mr.
1:35:43
ValenÃ§a in there.
1:35:43
I think, I think he communicates a kind of love to his horse that his horse-
1:35:47
Dominique Barbier: Yes
1:35:48
â¦ just-
1:35:48
Dominique Barbier: Yes
1:35:49
â¦ responds to.
1:35:50
Luis,
1:35:51
Dominique Barbier: Luis is a, is a different, but again, because Luis-
1:35:53
Yes â¦ is a different human being.
1:35:55
He is.
1:35:55
He is.
1:35:56
I mean, the amount of love that that man can exude, and that you
1:36:00
just see the horses basking in it.
1:36:03
Speaking of Portuguese there's a man who I think often goes unsung in this
1:36:09
whole education process that you've gone through, that I'm involved in
1:36:14
that I always encourage people to get involved in, who was contemporary
1:36:18
with Nuno and but people don't know about him so much, of course.
1:36:21
And that's Braganza.
1:36:23
Di- Dom Diogo de BraganÃ§a.
1:36:25
Dominique Barbier: Diogo, yes.
1:36:26
I know that you know a lot about this man, and I, I think that it would be really
1:36:30
useful for listeners and watchers to be aware of this person, because I f- I feel
1:36:37
that he- was what you're talking about.
1:36:41
The, but I d- I never met him.
1:36:43
I've only read his books, 'cause of course he, he died I, I think, what, in the '90s?
1:36:48
But from what I can read he seemed to be coming from a, that much more point
1:36:53
of compassion that you're talking about.
1:36:55
Can you, but perhaps you know, y- y- y- d- tell me, tell us, d- talk to us about him.
1:37:01
Dominique Barbier: Well, you know, when I was a, when I arrived in
1:37:03
Portugal the first time the mestri at his picadeiro in Lisbon, yeah?
1:37:09
Mm.
1:37:10
Dominique Barbier: In north of Lisbon At the place where Gui- Dr.
1:37:14
Guillem Borba was, was the, was the, the man that started the, the, the
1:37:19
Real School, the Spanish school in in, in Spain, and and the, and the
1:37:24
Portuguese school also there Yeah And there were there were three people.
1:37:28
There was there was Dr.
1:37:30
Borba, it was Don Diogo Braganza, and it was Dr.
1:37:36
I'm not going to have his name now.
1:37:37
He was a leading
1:37:38
pilot- The, the, the, the portly man with the mustache who you always
1:37:41
see in the front of the pictures- No â¦ from the Portuguese Royal School.
1:37:45
Him?
1:37:45
The, the- No
1:37:46
â¦ Dominique Barbier: bespectacled
1:37:47
dude No, no, no
1:37:47
Dominique Barbier: No, not him?
1:37:48
No, no, no.
1:37:48
No, no, no, no, no, no.
1:37:49
No, no, he was he was he was a little more aged than the, than the mystery
1:37:54
Okay
1:37:55
Dominique Barbier: He was anyway, there were thir- Okay â¦ so there
1:37:57
was three person, and they were all riding with the mystery in in Lisbon.
1:38:02
That's where I met them Mm And they were the people that, that that
1:38:09
they knew, they read everything that could be read on horses.
1:38:14
They, they speak Spanish and, and and, and, and, and German and French, and
1:38:19
they read every single book there was.
1:38:22
And on top of it, they were training horses in the different
1:38:26
books level and- Mm â¦ and talking to the master about this.
1:38:30
And and they, they were all a student, and they were just an incredible amount
1:38:34
of of, of knowledge that was there.
1:38:37
And and I was lucky enough to be there at that time and to,
1:38:42
and to, and, and to see them.
1:38:44
And Diogo was certainly one of the most I, I love his book the, the L'Equitation
1:38:49
Tradition Francaise is one of the most wonderful books there is there, because
1:38:54
the, the man was able to very simply explain all the different theory.
1:39:00
Like, he has a, he has a passage there on, on, on Baucher.
1:39:03
Baucher is a very much a la mode right now.
1:39:06
Everybody is a Baucherist.
1:39:08
But he, he, it, it's a, it, Baucher was a very complex man also and a very-
1:39:14
Mm â¦ different method and this and that.
1:39:16
And, and I willâ¦
1:39:18
I mean, you need to read it, and you need to forget about it.
1:39:23
Sure That's what I always say about it.
1:39:24
And but he is, in his book, ab- able to explain to you very simply what
1:39:29
it was at least simply about Mm.
1:39:33
Mm.
1:39:33
And and, and again, a very, very clear man.
1:39:37
Very, very clear man You know, at, at, at, at that time, what they
1:39:42
did is that they, they used to throw a party, and at at at Dr.
1:39:47
Balbas place, a small lit- little picadero up the hill.
1:39:51
And they used to bring horses in from the field.
1:39:54
And, and, and in a very Portuguese way, they used to choose
1:39:58
not the, not the good horse.
1:40:00
They used to, to choose a horse that was kind of a, not ugly-looking,
1:40:04
but not, not the most pretty one, and not the most gifted one, yes?
1:40:09
And they used to present it there to their friend, and all their friend was
1:40:12
there drinking and smiling and joking.
1:40:15
Says, "Oh, you will never be able to do this," and, "That horse is so bad this
1:40:18
and so bad that," ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta.
1:40:21
And they were having a wonderful Portuguese time there.
1:40:24
And then not even a year later, they would have another party, and they
1:40:28
would show that horse doing everything from from, from Grand Prix on that on
1:40:33
that horse in a, in less than a year.
1:40:36
And that was their way of of life.
1:40:38
That's what the- Mm â¦ what that, what they were doing.
1:40:40
And in a, in a lot of a very very happy kind of a way of doing it.
1:40:46
And and the clarity again of of Diogo is, is, is, is pretty extraordinary.
1:40:52
Will youâ¦
1:40:53
I mean, I, I say his book is certainly the best book of the century
1:40:58
for, again, physical ri- riding.
1:41:01
For, again- Yeah â¦ what, what, what people do.
1:41:04
People do this, this wonderful physical stuff that they do, for they can- Yeah
1:41:09
â¦ they can mix it with love a little bit.
1:41:11
They can do this, they can do that.
1:41:12
But basically they use their spurs, and basically they do
1:41:17
the banging and the pushing.
1:41:18
And it's not- It's not-
1:41:19
we not really saying it, but that's what they do
1:41:22
â¦ the, this book is Dressage in the French Tradition.
1:41:25
Right.
1:41:25
Xenophon Press.
1:41:27
Dominique Barbier: Yeah.
1:41:27
Dom Diogo de Braganza.
1:41:29
Now, just as about, let's talk about spurs and things.
1:41:32
So, I've got nothing for or against spurs.
1:41:35
I, I happen not to use them.
1:41:37
Good.
1:41:38
Dominique Barbier: Good.
1:41:38
I'm very glad
1:41:39
and-
1:41:39
Dominique Barbier: I'm very happy for you.
1:41:41
I, I, I, I wouldn't even necessarily say it was a kind of conscious
1:41:44
decision in like I, I made a conscious decision, for example, to g- well,
1:41:49
actually, the reason I gave up fox hunting was actually from the shamanic
1:41:53
world, but we, we can go into that.
1:41:55
Even though I still ride to hounds, but I go after bloodhounds and we
1:41:58
hunt each other, it's different.
1:41:59
But- Yeah
1:42:03
With spurs, what's so interesting is it just never occurs to me to put them on.
1:42:07
Like, it's just never in my mind.
1:42:09
Dominique Barbier: Well-
1:42:09
And- Well,
1:42:10
Dominique Barbier: let, let me, let, let me tell you.
1:42:12
Spurs-
1:42:12
I've never found it, I've never found that I've needed them.
1:42:15
I've never found that-
1:42:16
Dominique Barbier: Spurs are wonderful.
1:42:18
Spurs are terrific machine for physical riding.
1:42:22
Oh.
1:42:22
You could do things with spurs that you cannot do without spurs.
1:42:25
Right.
1:42:26
Dominique Barbier: Okay?
1:42:26
My- Can you tell us what those things are?
1:42:28
Dominique Barbier: Myâ¦
1:42:29
Well, l- effet ensemble, the to- together- Yes â¦ effect and, and all that stuff.
1:42:34
It just, And
1:42:34
very, very quickly-
1:42:35
Dominique Barbier: Yes
1:42:36
â¦ what is the effet ensemble?
1:42:37
Because a lot of people don't know and a lot of them- Oh, my
1:42:39
Dominique Barbier: God
1:42:39
would be interested.
1:42:40
Can I, can I not talk about it?
1:42:42
Because I, I don't want to.
1:42:44
Thank, thank you, because nobody is going to do it, and nobody should
1:42:48
learn about it because it's, it's something that the horse doesn't like.
1:42:51
Yes.
1:42:52
Shall Iâ¦
1:42:52
Sh- sh- okay, in that case, because just from a, a journalistic point of view, we
1:42:56
can't bring it up and not say what it is.
1:42:58
But-
1:42:58
Dominique Barbier: Okay.
1:42:58
Well, I can tell you, it is basically saying yes and no at the same time.
1:43:02
Yes.
1:43:02
Dominique Barbier: And, and it's like coming behind somebody and poking
1:43:06
him in the ribs as hard as you can.
1:43:08
While not letting him move.
1:43:09
Yeah.
1:43:10
Dominique Barbier: That's it.
1:43:10
With, with aâ¦
1:43:11
Well, th- th- except they don't attack with the spur.
1:43:13
They, they, they do this gradual intent ofâ¦
1:43:17
So gradually, they- It depends â¦ they put
1:43:20
Dominique Barbier: the
1:43:20
spurs
1:43:21
Dominique Barbier: on- It depends
1:43:22
â¦ on and on and
1:43:24
Dominique Barbier: on It depends gradually or not â¦ while
1:43:25
the horse kind of goes, "Huh."
1:43:25
Yeah.
1:43:25
Like that.
1:43:25
Grad- gradually or, or not.
1:43:27
And, Yes â¦ and I mean, it's, it's very powerful.
1:43:29
It's very great.
1:43:30
But again, again, do the horses like it?
1:43:33
Yeah.
1:43:33
Dominique Barbier: No.
1:43:34
No.
1:43:35
Dominique Barbier: Therefore, I, I just said, "No.
1:43:36
Does your, do your horse like spurs?"
1:43:39
"No."
1:43:39
"Okay.
1:43:40
Well, do you like do, do, do, do, do your horse like affruts, like
1:43:44
when you kick them in the teeth because you, you can't control them?"
1:43:48
"No."
1:43:50
They, all those things-
1:43:51
Yes, if that's, if that's what one's half halt is, yeah.
1:43:53
Sure.
1:43:54
Dominique Barbier: All those things are not, are not correct for the horses.
1:43:59
No, I couldn't agree more.
1:44:00
But what, what, what I found is that one can follow these guys' books
1:44:04
without doing any of that stuff.
1:44:07
Like I found that you can take the- Rupert,
1:44:10
Dominique Barbier: I
1:44:10
Rupert- â¦ the steps of the dance and just not do that stuff, and it still works
1:44:13
Dominique Barbier: Rupert, I, I understand, but you cannot part,
1:44:16
p- take one part out and say, "Well, let's read it," and think.
1:44:20
I think reading is wonderful.
1:44:22
I think reading, you can learn a lot by reading a lot- Mm â¦ of books, okay?
1:44:26
Mm.
1:44:26
But that's what it is from another person.
1:44:29
Mm, true.
1:44:29
This is not your experience.
1:44:31
This is what somebody else has put on a piece of paper.
1:44:35
That can help you?
1:44:36
Absolutely.
1:44:37
But if, if your goal is not the same goal, I mean, if your goal is
1:44:43
happiness of the horse, eliminateâ¦
1:44:46
The way I did my stuff is by eliminate everything my horse did not like.
1:44:52
Yeah, no, I, I'm with you.
1:44:53
I'm notâ¦
1:44:53
I, I think we're absolutely, absolutely talking to the same point here.
1:44:57
Dominique Barbier: Yeah.
1:44:57
I, I, I guess what I'm saying is that I found that the horsesâ¦
1:45:01
'Cause here's the question people often ask: Does a horse enjoy dressage?
1:45:04
And when people ask me that- â¦ I say, "Well, it
1:45:06
depends how you do it," you know?
1:45:08
Because if, if you observe a horse in a field when they're in their passion, and,
1:45:13
and that passion can be a passion of play or a passion of anger or a passion of
1:45:18
lust they will do all of these movements.
1:45:20
And they will often offer the, like you were talking about with your
1:45:24
horse, Don Giovanni, or my horse, Zag, they'll often just offer them up.
1:45:28
And they'll offer them up joyfully if you allow it to be joyful.
1:45:33
So what I found is that the mechanical stuff of the in-hand work and showing
1:45:39
a horse, "Look, I'd like you to put this inside leg here, and I'd like
1:45:41
you to put that outside leg here.
1:45:42
Now could you straighten it out a bit like this?
1:45:44
And, oh, look, this happens," that that can be done without any need for violence.
1:45:52
You don't need any kind of, as you say, aggressive half halt.
1:45:56
You don't need any kind of spur.
1:45:58
You don't need any kind of anything.
1:45:59
You don't need to push with the seat.
1:46:01
You don't need to kick.
1:46:02
You can absolutely allow the horse to access these passionate behaviors that
1:46:10
they already do in a way that they enjoy.
1:46:16
As you say, provided you don't do something that they don't enjoy.
1:46:20
Yeah.
1:46:22
Yeah.
1:46:22
But so, so when you, when you're showing people how to do this,
1:46:26
because the, the dance is a beautiful dance, and the dance has a function.
1:46:30
So for me, you know, that function might be to have a horse that
1:46:34
can produce oxytocin in a child.
1:46:37
It- someone else, it might be something else, but it could also just be for the
1:46:41
art and for the joy, or as the Irish would say, for the craic, you know?
1:46:44
Just for the fun of it.
1:46:45
When you are showing people now how to take that stuff that you
1:46:49
learned, which was shown to you with whips, with spurs, with all those
1:46:52
things, and now to do it without any of that stuff, what's your way?
1:46:56
What's your, your route that you show people?
1:47:01
Dominique Barbier: Well, a- again it's an individual thinking, and
1:47:05
you people do what they want to do.
1:47:08
And and, and, and if they define their goal, if their goal is to have
1:47:13
their horse happy- Mm-hmm â¦ don't do, don't do thing they don't like.
1:47:17
Yes, but th- that we've established, and I, absolute- you're absolutely right.
1:47:20
Dominique Barbier: That's it.
1:47:21
Now, what do you show people to do?
1:47:23
Because, you know, you have a structure to your teaching.
1:47:26
Dominique Barbier: True.
1:47:26
Sure.
1:47:26
Tell us the structure of your teaching.
1:47:28
Dominique Barbier: Well, we, we do the, the very much, I suppose, the
1:47:32
same way that that, that you, you learn from, from Luis, is that you have a
1:47:37
lunging- Mm â¦ and you, you allow the horse to, to, to enjoy and play.
1:47:43
And then after that, you're, you, you tell him that he has to do a little work,
1:47:47
and he needs to be in a certain position.
1:47:49
Yeah?
1:47:49
Mm-hmm.
1:47:50
And, and that position allow him to be in a certain balance.
1:47:53
Mm-hmm.
1:47:54
And when he's a certain position, a certain balance, he's able
1:47:57
to produce certain movement.
1:47:59
Yeah.
1:47:59
And you, and you do the, you do your, your work in hand very, very simply, and
1:48:04
then you do the riding and the shoulder in, the haunches-in, and the pirouette-
1:48:09
Mm-hmm
1:48:09
Dominique Barbier: very, very clearly with a visualization.
1:48:13
And it
1:48:13
seems- Tell us about the visualization.
1:48:15
How do you help people to that visualization?
1:48:17
What tools?
1:48:18
You must give them certain tools, 'cause not everyone can do it so naturally.
1:48:22
Dominique Barbier: I think, I think it's just a, i- i- it's just a form,
1:48:26
you know, for, for, for people.
1:48:28
It's aâ¦
1:48:30
For people, what are you sensitive to?
1:48:32
You are sensitive to music, you are sensitive to look, you
1:48:34
are sensitive to smell, you are sensitive to a lot of stuff, yeah?
1:48:39
The visualization is all about that.
1:48:41
It's all about a little, playing a little video of what you want to have happen.
1:48:46
Mm-hmm.
1:48:47
Okay?
1:48:47
And, and, and and and I believe that, that this, this little video
1:48:52
you play is as real as anything.
1:48:57
Yeah.
1:48:57
So when you play the video, the pl- the video become the reality of the, of
1:49:01
your next ride You see, though, I was, I was starting the conversation with you
1:49:07
about this, this double understanding where, where, where, where life is and-
1:49:12
Mm â¦ what certain, what does that mean?
1:49:14
Mm.
1:49:14
Well, you, you have a certain reality of what you think and a
1:49:17
certain reality of what's happening and a certain reality of, of both.
1:49:22
Absolutely.
1:49:22
And when, and when you have those both thing, that you have the, you
1:49:25
have the, the, the, the oneness that everybody's looking for.
1:49:29
You have this, this this centerization, the f- the feeling
1:49:32
that you are mind and body together.
1:49:35
And then you, you, you start your spiritual thinking
1:49:38
from, from that aspect of it.
1:49:40
Absolutely.
1:49:41
I f- Iâ¦
1:49:42
What I see will normally block people from that, in particular
1:49:45
in the equine situation, is fear.
1:49:48
So- Yes.
1:49:49
Absolutely â¦ and it's, it's fear ofâ¦
1:49:50
'Cause it's multiple fears at the same time, right?
1:49:52
It's fear of-
1:49:53
Dominique Barbier: Yeah, but fear, fear is simply what you don't know.
1:49:56
Okay.
1:49:57
Dominique Barbier: If you know, there's no fear.
1:49:59
But, right.
1:50:00
But you're, you'reâ¦
1:50:01
When people don't know, they don't know.
1:50:03
Of course.
1:50:03
So when they're- Of course â¦ when they're learning something
1:50:05
from you, they're learning something they don't know.
1:50:07
So when you, if they're blocked by fear, because let's say fear is the stress
1:50:11
hormone cortisol, and cortisol, you know, is a neurotoxin that cuts for a nanosecond
1:50:17
the connection between the thinking part of the brain in front and the keeping
1:50:23
you alive part of the brain at the back.
1:50:25
When that someone is in that situation because they're afraid of their
1:50:29
horse, they're afraid of falling off, they're afraid of you, the instructor,
1:50:31
they're afraid of not, of being seen to be silly because they don't know.
1:50:35
They're afraid of, they're afraid of 10 things at the same time.
1:50:38
That's nor- that's normal.
1:50:40
And we then say to them, "Okay, we'd like you to visualize this
1:50:43
thing," but they can't access this thing because the fear's in the way.
1:50:47
How do you help them through that?
1:50:49
Dominique Barbier: Well, I think you, you, you have to, you have to
1:50:53
precise what you are fearing about
1:50:55
Mm-hmm
1:50:56
Dominique Barbier: Most people are not fear the horses, they
1:50:58
are fear the energy of the horse
1:51:01
Mm
1:51:02
Dominique Barbier: Therefore sometimes sitting on a bucket in
1:51:05
the stall re- reading a book is the most important part for them to do
1:51:09
Just to be with the horse
1:51:11
Dominique Barbier: Just to be there.
1:51:13
Just to realize there's no- there's nothing fearful about
1:51:17
it, just by being- Mm â¦ with it
1:51:19
Mm
1:51:19
Dominique Barbier: And, and then from, from that, then they can touch
1:51:22
them, and they can, you know, groom them, and do through the whole,
1:51:27
through the whole thinking things
1:51:30
When someone is coming into the arena with you, let's say they don't know you so
1:51:34
well you, you teach all over the place, so you must get some new people quite often.
1:51:39
They will come in with certain fear, and of course perhaps they've brought
1:51:42
their horse to a clinic or a workshop that you're doing, and the horse is in
1:51:46
an unfamiliar place, so it's looking around and snorting, and perhaps this
1:51:50
person has bought themselves a very big warm blood that you know, whose movement
1:51:54
is a little bit too much for them.
1:51:55
And, and you walk into there with all of your history and all of your story
1:52:00
and all of your tools- Mm â¦ and you gonna help this person To visualize
1:52:07
something- Yes â¦ that's almost the opposite of what's going on.
1:52:11
How do you help them to unpick in that hour that they have you for?
1:52:16
What are, what are some little- Generally it's less, generally it's-
1:52:20
bits of homework that you can give them to go home with, with that?
1:52:22
Dominique Barbier: Generally it's much less than an hour because- Yes.
1:52:25
â¦ nobody can, nobody can take an hour from me.
1:52:27
Indeed.
1:52:28
Dominique Barbier: Nobody can.
1:52:29
Well, the very first thing I think that they have to understand
1:52:33
is the, the, the be present.
1:52:36
Okay.
1:52:37
Dominique Barbier: Okay?
1:52:38
The being present is certainly the most important part there.
1:52:42
Yeah.
1:52:42
And
1:52:42
how do they do that?
1:52:43
Dominique Barbier: Be, be present.
1:52:45
Again they have to practice, they have to buy a little pillow and,
1:52:48
and sit by the tree or sit by the, by their thing and just- Mm â¦ be
1:52:53
with, be with themself okay.
1:52:55
Because if they are not with themself okay, they are not gonna
1:52:57
be okay with nothing around them.
1:53:00
But they can'tâ¦
1:53:01
Are you, are you telling them they need to dismount and put their horse back in
1:53:04
the box and go sit under a tree for a while- Well, some, some- â¦ and then
1:53:07
come back into the arena with you or-
1:53:08
â¦ Dominique Barbier: sh- some, some, sometime-
1:53:09
â¦ something more
1:53:10
Dominique Barbier: immediate?
1:53:10
â¦ sometime I do.
1:53:11
Yeah.
1:53:11
You would, you would be amazed.
1:53:14
Yes.
1:53:15
Dominique Barbier: You'd be amazed.
1:53:16
No.
1:53:16
But simply that, that, that they have to identify what is happening.
1:53:21
Okay.
1:53:21
And if, if, if, if it'sâ¦
1:53:23
I- if, if they don't know what's happening, if they don't know
1:53:26
the problem, they can't solve it.
1:53:28
And how do you help them to identify that?
1:53:29
I'm in- I'm interested.
1:53:31
Dominique Barbier: Identify, we start talking about cooking sometime.
1:53:34
Mm-hmm.
1:53:35
We start talking about something else.
1:53:36
We start talking about, "Well, what would you like to do today?"
1:53:37
Mm-hmm.
1:53:37
"What would you like to
1:53:41
you know, a little bit when you have a lunch or what,
1:53:43
what are you going to order?
1:53:44
Are you going to do fish- Mm â¦ or are you gonna do meat?"
1:53:45
Mm.
1:53:45
"Or are you gonna do vegetables, or are you gonna do grain?"
1:53:49
Mm.
1:53:50
Okay?
1:53:50
In other words, just be there talking to the person, know what's happening,
1:53:55
and then see, "How is the horse?"
1:53:57
And generally they tell you the whole big story about how bad he was and how
1:54:00
good he is, and for that's wonderful.
1:54:02
Mm.
1:54:02
That's positive.
1:54:04
And then you say, "What would you like me to do, you, to do- Mm
1:54:07
with, with you?"
1:54:07
And they, they have to come out and tell you what they want, and
1:54:11
then you, you, you tell them.
1:54:12
Sometimes they say, "Oh, I don't know anything yet."
1:54:15
I say, "That's a good start.
1:54:16
You know more than most people right there."
1:54:18
Mm.
1:54:19
And then, and then you joke, you smile, and you, you go through the process.
1:54:23
Mm.
1:54:24
Right.
1:54:24
So you're talking about you establish human connection.
1:54:26
That's really what you're saying.
1:54:27
You establish empathy.
1:54:29
You establish- Well
1:54:33
Dominique Barbier: That's the, the only way I know how I'm- Yeah â¦ am
1:54:35
I able to, to communicate those people for the short period of a time.
1:54:39
Gen- generally I ask them to be there for the whole day.
1:54:43
Right.
1:54:43
To see all the other people, and all the other horses, and all that, that they
1:54:46
know a little bit about what was going on.
1:54:48
And, and after three days we've become very friendly, we don't want to leave.
1:54:52
Yeah.
1:54:53
Dominique Barbier: You
1:54:53
know?
1:54:53
No, I can seeâ¦
1:54:54
You know, the, the reason it, it might seem asinine that I'm peeling back
1:54:59
the onion layers, and you can tell that I'm a journalist- That's okay
1:55:02
Until I get to the answer, because- That's
1:55:04
Dominique Barbier: okay
1:55:04
â¦ what seems obvious to you may not seem obvious to somebody else.
1:55:07
And- Of course â¦ there will be people who are listening who are at the
1:55:11
beginning of their instructor journey.
1:55:13
And it's one of the things which people, I think we all forget when we're learning,
1:55:19
is that the instructor can often be as afraid as us, and fe- but can't show it.
1:55:25
And so when one of the things I often tell people is, "Learn
1:55:30
how to manage your instructor.
1:55:31
Remember they're just another monkey, and they're probably as scared as you."
1:55:35
So if you can establish that connection and actually advocate for what you want
1:55:40
and need, and say, "Well, I'm feeling like this," or, "I'm afraid of this,"
1:55:44
or, "I'm uncomfortable here," or, "I, actually I'm really enjoying this.
1:55:47
Could we do more of that?"
1:55:48
Or "I feel now that I need a little break to just process this information," any
1:55:54
of these perfectly reasonable things-
1:55:59
W- a lot of people, I think when they, when they become instructors,
1:56:02
they feel t- they, they also want to give money's worth.
1:56:05
That, "Okay, this person's paying me all this money for this hour,
1:56:08
I must give them, you know, 60 minutes of instruction, and otherwise
1:56:13
they're not gonna be happy with me."
1:56:15
And that's often the instructor's fear.
1:56:17
And sometimes that's true.
1:56:18
Sometimes, you know, you've, you must have had this, when y- it's
1:56:22
very clear after 15 minutes-
1:56:24
Dominique Barbier: I used to.
1:56:25
I used to, but I, I don't anymore.
1:56:27
Now let me tell you-
1:56:28
Yeah,
1:56:28
Dominique Barbier: yeah â¦ it's, it's all, it's all about w- who is
1:56:31
the instructor and who is the student.
1:56:33
Yeah, absolutely.
1:56:34
And, and what they believe.
1:56:35
I had some different experience in my life- Mm â¦ that when you are
1:56:40
around a certain people, you are in a different, completely different
1:56:46
way that you are on, on your own.
1:56:49
Mm.
1:56:50
I did many, many trip in, in India, and I have a lot of very, very good
1:56:54
people over there, and a lot of people that just are basically healers,
1:56:59
if I can say in a general term.
1:57:01
Yes.
1:57:02
Mm-hmm.
1:57:02
And you are around them and you feel good.
1:57:05
Mm.
1:57:06
Mm.
1:57:06
And, and I don't it's me, huh, but I don't really analyze, "How am I
1:57:12
going to do this, or how am I going to do that," or- Mm â¦ this and that.
1:57:15
It's going to happen or it's not going to happen.
1:57:17
Mm.
1:57:18
And, and somebody in my presence with the horse in my presence, and
1:57:23
me telling them what I want to tell them, is going to change things.
1:57:26
Mm.
1:57:27
Mm.
1:57:27
It is automatically changing by the presence of two people and, and the horse.
1:57:33
Right.
1:57:33
And, and I believe this is stronger than anything else that I could
1:57:39
twist my brain and try to figure it out, this and this and that.
1:57:42
Mm-hmm.
1:57:43
Therefore, right now you ask me the technicality of how do
1:57:46
I do this and how do I do that.
1:57:47
To tell you the truth, I don't know.
1:57:49
Mm.
1:57:50
I show my face, and I, I'm the nicest person as, as I can, that first of
1:57:55
all to the horse, secondly to the person, and we're going to spend 20
1:58:00
minutes and half an hour together.
1:58:02
Mm-hmm.
1:58:02
And I'm gonna try to find one or two points that I can help you to figure
1:58:07
it out during that period of time.
1:58:08
Mm-hmm.
1:58:08
Mm-hmm.
1:58:09
Dominique Barbier: That's all.
1:58:10
It's all what it is.
1:58:13
Right.
1:58:13
But I think, again, you did give the, you did give the mechanism there, which
1:58:18
is it's, it's relationship and empathy.
1:58:21
And- It- â¦ making someb- making, creating safety is, I think,
1:58:24
what you're talking about too.
1:58:25
Dominique Barbier: Yes, yes.
1:58:26
It's, it's, it's, it's somebody that you, you trust, and somebody who is there- Mm
1:58:30
and somebody that you think no more, and somebody that cares
1:58:33
for your horse and for you.
1:58:35
Mm.
1:58:35
Well, when that, when, when that, when that is created-
1:58:39
Mm
1:58:39
â¦ Dominique Barbier: then everything is there.
1:58:41
For me-
1:58:42
I would, I would agree.
1:58:43
I would agree So what are you working on now?
1:58:47
Where, where is Barbier World going now?
1:58:49
Dominique Barbier: Oh my God, where am I working?
1:58:52
I don't know what I'm working on.
1:58:55
I'm trying to, to go less and less, and, and it doesn't work too well.
1:59:00
I mean, I, after COVID, I think we have been attacked by all sorts of thing,
1:59:06
and I wanted to sort of slow down and, and take things easy, and I, and I
1:59:11
don't think I'm very successful at it.
1:59:14
Therefore as I do with everything, I take it a, a, a, a stride and, and
1:59:19
I'm, I'm still teaching everywhere, and enjoying every time that I am with
1:59:26
my, my, my my, my horses and my people.
1:59:30
And I try more and more to create some more off time, a little bit, if I can,
1:59:35
a little bit before, a little bit after.
1:59:37
Like, I am in Portugal right now.
1:59:38
I'm, I'm working because I am w- I want to try to w- find a horse from,
1:59:43
from a, for my friend, and wonderful.
1:59:45
But basically, I want to create a very, very nice time, and, and just enjoying
1:59:51
a cup of coffee, you know what I mean?
1:59:53
I do.
1:59:53
Dominique Barbier: And and because there's, there's not much than that.
1:59:57
You know, I, I have the choice of, of, I have, I have the great pleasure
2:00:01
to have great friends ev- everywhere.
2:00:03
You, you know Luis, he's down the road, and I have a, a lot of other
2:00:07
friend that, from that era that I know from there, and I want to visit them.
2:00:11
I want to say hello, and we're going to have coffee, and we're going to have a
2:00:13
talk, and we're going to play with horses.
2:00:16
I- It- It's okay with me right now.
2:00:19
And do, please do tell Luis hello from me, and give him- Sure, I will.
2:00:22
I will â¦ my, my never-ending gratitude to that man.
2:00:25
I will.
2:00:26
I know from your friend and my friend, Mr.
2:00:28
Richard Williams at Xenophon Press, that, do you, I think you
2:00:32
have a book that is either coming out or has recently come out.
2:00:39
Is that not right?
2:00:40
Dominique Barbier: Say that, say that again.
2:00:41
A new book.
2:00:42
I, oh, I have a new book coming up.
2:00:43
Yeah.
2:00:44
Yeah.
2:00:44
Yeah.
2:00:44
Tell us about the new book.
2:00:45
Dominique Barbier: Oh, my God, it's difficult.
2:00:47
You definitely are a j- journalist, yes, very good.
2:00:50
Well, yes, I have a new book.
2:00:56
And, and I have a good joke about my new book.
2:00:58
It's going to be very, very, very fast, and it's it's going to be a
2:01:03
simple a simple word on a simple page, and it's going to be my book.
2:01:09
It's going to be called Consciousness.
2:01:13
Because I realize more and more, as we were talking together this
2:01:17
morning, that it's a, that the, the, the simple conversation that
2:01:22
we have is simply a different way to express our consciousness.
2:01:27
Are we, are we loo- looâ¦
2:01:29
the way we are looking at life.
2:01:31
Some people are looking at life right now, we, we, we, through your questions,
2:01:35
through your thing, you, you, you have this certain, you know, way of,
2:01:38
of having people talking about their life, and talking about how they,
2:01:42
they, they understand their training, or they understand their teaching,
2:01:46
or they understand this and that.
2:01:47
And, and the, and the story, the, the, the, the answer to
2:01:50
all that is consciousness.
2:01:53
What does that- So
2:01:53
tell us about the book.
2:01:54
What's in the book?
2:01:55
Dominique Barbier: What does, what does that mean?
2:01:57
What does that mean?
2:01:58
Mm.
2:01:58
Dominique Barbier: It mean it depends, the different of consciousness that you
2:02:02
are in i- i- is going to dictate your question for this interview, for example.
2:02:08
Indeed.
2:02:09
Dominique Barbier: And, and it's nothing to do with me or you.
2:02:12
It has to do with you thinking about, well, we're going to
2:02:16
talk about the old master.
2:02:17
You are fascinated by the old masters, yeah?
2:02:20
You read it, you that, you that.
2:02:21
And then you are fascinated by this, you are fascinated by that, and you ask
2:02:25
what the other person enjoy, what do they think about those, those question.
2:02:30
Especially for me right now I really, I hate to say that to you, but I'm
2:02:36
really not on that level right now.
2:02:38
I am really not on the level on, on anything because I, Iâ¦
2:02:43
the more the, the, the, the older I get, the more I understand that
2:02:48
this is, this is not where it's at.
2:02:51
This is not how much leg do we apply.
2:02:53
This is not how much angle we have in the shoulder in.
2:02:56
This is not how much is that.
2:02:58
It's part of me.
2:02:59
I, I still love it and I still teach it, and I, and I do, do that,
2:03:02
but it's not where it's all about.
2:03:04
Is your horse happier with little less angle because his outside leg and the
2:03:09
shoulder in can go forward instead of going wrong like most people do?
2:03:14
Mm-hmm.
2:03:15
Dominique Barbier: That, that is important to, to, to me.
2:03:17
But, but, but, but, but to have your horse more happy doing it, that's
2:03:22
really is my concern right now.
2:03:24
And in your book, Consciousness, are you helping people, do you feel, to
2:03:29
get to that point where they can-
2:03:33
Dominique Barbier: Again, what
2:03:34
is- Allow that happiness and not block that happiness with their horse
2:03:37
Dominique Barbier: Rupert, again, it is, it is my message right now
2:03:42
of where I am that can, I think, can help people look better at what
2:03:48
they are doing with their horses.
2:03:49
Mm-hmm.
2:03:49
Improve their relationship with it.
2:03:52
Now, that's it.
2:03:54
Mm.
2:03:54
That's it.
2:03:55
Now would, would that produce a better piaffe?
2:03:58
Yeah.
2:03:58
Will it produce a better shoulder-in?
2:03:59
Yeah.
2:03:59
Will it produce this and that more better?
2:04:01
Yes.
2:04:02
Sh- but, but really, the, the, my, my goal is to put more smile on their faces,
2:04:08
that way their horses would be left alone more, and they would be more happy.
2:04:12
I couldn't agree more.
2:04:13
It's funny, you know, when the whole, you know, the, the training scale,
2:04:15
the training pyramid, which is an interesting thing because the bloke
2:04:19
that came up with that, the German bloke that came up with that- Yeah
2:04:23
himself said that he got it wrong, Yeah, of course he did it wrong â¦ and said,
2:04:27
and said, "Oh, no, actually, it shouldn't be rhythm first, it should be relaxation.
2:04:30
Everything should be relaxation."
2:04:32
Of course.
2:04:32
But you know, he, he edited his own thing.
2:04:35
The one thing I always thought was so missing from the training scale is
2:04:40
where's joy on that training scale?
2:04:43
Exactly.
2:04:43
And you know, it's interesting.
2:04:45
I think you, you maybe think that I am more technical than minded than
2:04:49
I am, but rather like you, I look at the technology of riding in the same
2:04:53
way that I look at the technology of shamanism in that I knowâ¦
2:04:57
'Cause you're ta- remember, you must remember who you're talking to here.
2:04:59
You're talking to a man who rode across a large chunk of Mongolia
2:05:02
with his five-year-old autistic child sitting in front of him in a
2:05:05
saddle, going from shaman to shaman.
2:05:08
You know- That's it â¦ you lived with the Bushmen for a longâ¦
2:05:09
You know, so I'm, I'm looking- That's it â¦ through multiple lenses, of course.
2:05:12
That's it.
2:05:12
Dominique Barbier: That's it.
2:05:13
And I'm looking basically through the lens of love.
2:05:16
'Cause what you're talking about, consciousness, is
2:05:17
just another word for love.
2:05:19
Dominique Barbier: Sure.
2:05:19
The, and joy is just another word for love, and there
2:05:22
really are only two emotions.
2:05:23
There's love, and there's fear, and there's nuances of those
2:05:26
which we give other names.
2:05:27
But basically, that's it.
2:05:29
And are we, so are we riding our horse in fear?
2:05:31
Is our horse in fear?
2:05:32
Is our horseâ¦
2:05:32
And sometimes we are.
2:05:34
Sometimes our horse is in fear.
2:05:35
Sometimes we're in fear.
2:05:36
So, and- Yeah â¦ if we're in fear, if our horse is in fear, doesn't
2:05:39
necessarily even mean it's our fault.
2:05:41
The ho- there can be many things going on inside that- Sure.
2:05:44
Sure â¦ that have nothing to do with us at all.
2:05:45
Of course.
2:05:45
But yes, certainly our job is to put a smile-
2:05:49
Dominique Barbier: Now, now to, to, to- â¦ ourselves
2:05:51
and a smile in our heart, yeah
2:05:53
Dominique Barbier: I agree 100% with what you said.
2:05:55
Just to go back to answer my, your question and not being so-
2:05:59
Mm â¦ such a hard-ass is is I am trying to have a book about how
2:06:04
the language of riding must change.
2:06:09
The language of learning must change in order to adapt ourself
2:06:13
to what we are actually doing.
2:06:15
Mm.
2:06:16
You know, the, the, the impulsion is becoming the energy, yes?
2:06:21
Mm-hmm.
2:06:22
And a lot of different words like the effort and all that stuff has to go away.
2:06:27
They, they, they don't mean anything anymore because when the,
2:06:33
when your relationship start to be more mental than physical, we
2:06:39
need other words to define- Yeah
2:06:42
the different complexes, the different way of, of, of, of, of you looking at things.
2:06:48
Mm-hmm.
2:06:48
Mm-hmm.
2:06:48
I couldn't agree more.
2:06:49
The, yeah, interesting, if, if energy replaces the word impulsion, do you
2:06:54
have a word, a, a way of thinking to replace the concept of the effort?
2:06:59
Dominique Barbier: Well, the effort, do you see theâ¦
2:07:01
A- again, right there, the balance is there.
2:07:04
Mm-hmm.
2:07:04
Mm-hmm.
2:07:04
We do not change the balance.
2:07:07
Mm-hmm.
2:07:07
Mm-hmm.
2:07:08
This, this ideas of changing the balance is ridiculous.
2:07:11
Mm-hmm.
2:07:11
Mm-hmm.
2:07:12
The changing of the balance is happening with your upper part of your
2:07:15
body and getting- Mm-hmm â¦ polar.
2:07:17
Yes.
2:07:17
And going to upper bod- body when you are connected with your heart.
2:07:21
Mm-hmm.
2:07:21
But when you are connected with your heart, where does
2:07:23
that connection come from?
2:07:25
Mm-hmm.
2:07:25
That connection is a mental connection.
2:07:30
Again- Yeah â¦ again, we cannot use the same words because we do physical and we
2:07:36
do mental, because it's not the same idea.
2:07:40
It's very interesting.
2:07:41
I was teaching, I think, I think about a year and a half ago or
2:07:44
so, and some- the person asked me, "So, how do I keep the balance?"
2:07:52
Mm-hmm.
2:07:53
And then I realized you don't.
2:07:57
What you do is you lose it, and you retrieve it, and you lose
2:07:59
it, and you retrieve it, and you lose it, and you retrieve it,
2:08:01
just like you do when you walk.
2:08:03
It's just that when you were a toddler and you were learning to
2:08:05
walk, and you face-planted many times-
2:08:08
Dominique Barbier: Yeah
2:08:09
â¦ you learned to make the process more efficient, but the commitment of
2:08:13
weight is still, of loss of balance, is still the same, so that if I'm
2:08:17
walking along the road after too many beers and I hit a paving stone that's a
2:08:23
quarter of an inch high- Your balance-
2:08:24
from the other one- â¦ your
2:08:24
Dominique Barbier: balance is
2:08:25
wrong â¦ still fall flat on my face.
2:08:27
In fact, I don't even need the beers.
2:08:29
And so it is, it's not about trying to keep balance because
2:08:33
this is not a possibility.
2:08:34
It's about joyfully losing it and joyfully reclaiming it.
2:08:38
And it's funny, it's often the people who ask you those questions in
2:08:43
those teaching situations that make you, that teach you what it is- Yep
2:08:48
you actually need to l- and you're like, "Oh, my gosh, you know, thank you for
2:08:50
asking that question because now you've actually made me turn my attention to
2:08:55
this in a way that's actually really helpful for me, so thank you very much."
2:08:59
You know, so I, I, I, I, I would be fascinated to know s- can you give
2:09:04
us a couple more examples of useful- re-calibrations of language that you're
2:09:13
playing with there in that book, because I think these things really do help.
2:09:16
Again, back to the visualization, I think it, it helps if people
2:09:19
even just hear it now from you.
2:09:21
It, it, it plants seeds, yeah?
2:09:25
So you've got energy instead of impulsion.
2:09:28
Are there a couple of other things that
2:09:30
Dominique Barbier: have- Yeah, we, we got, we got position
2:09:33
in- in- in- instead of action.
2:09:36
Okay.
2:09:37
Dominique Barbier: Position, no action.
2:09:39
Okay.
2:09:40
Dominique Barbier: In other words, your position is the
2:09:42
one that determine your action.
2:09:46
Mm.
2:09:47
But you're not doing.
2:09:48
You see, the, the, the, the French riding to its best is not doing.
2:09:53
Mm.
2:09:53
Mm.
2:09:53
The descente de main, descente de jambe- Mm â¦ is cr- is created because
2:09:58
you put your hand and your leg in a position where you cannot use them, yes?
2:10:02
Mm-hmm.
2:10:02
Mm-hmm.
2:10:03
Mm-hmm.
2:10:03
Now, well, why is that?
2:10:04
Why is that?
2:10:05
Because you are going to have a change of consciousness.
2:10:08
Uh-oh, the word again.
2:10:10
Mm.
2:10:11
Because when your hands and your leg are in a position where you
2:10:14
cannot use them, what's happening?
2:10:17
Well, that's happening, you are going to have a change of looking at things
2:10:21
differently because- Mm â¦ you are going to get completely mental, and- Mm
2:10:26
â¦ maybe with a touch of something else.
2:10:29
Mm.
2:10:29
Mm.
2:10:30
Mm.
2:10:30
You see what I mean now?
2:10:31
I do.
2:10:31
How, how many people define that descente de main, descente de jambe?
2:10:35
How many people told you why we are doing it, eh?
2:10:38
They do- they don't use the word consciousness.
2:10:40
They're afraid of it, because- Yeah â¦ consciousness is looking
2:10:43
at things differently, eh?
2:10:45
They don't want to look at things differently.
2:10:48
They want to look at what they look and make it a little better, if they
2:10:51
can, but they don't want to change
2:10:54
it.
2:10:54
You see- It's interesting for me, descente de main, descente de
2:10:56
jambe make perfect sense becauseâ¦
2:10:58
And by the way, for listeners that don't speak French, that means,
2:11:02
descente means going down, but let's just translate it as letting go of
2:11:05
the hand and letting go of the leg.
2:11:07
The-
2:11:07
Dominique Barbier: And putting them, and putting them in a
2:11:09
position where you cannot use them.
2:11:12
Exactly.
2:11:13
That's
2:11:13
Dominique Barbier: important
2:11:14
â¦ so when I'm up there with an autistic child- that child
2:11:18
will do things sometimes.
2:11:20
I've had children, like, crawl up onto my shoulders or crawl around me.
2:11:25
And at that point I can't be riding.
2:11:28
I've got to absolutely trust my horse to be my compadre, and my leg and my
2:11:36
hand cannot act, which means that if he's expecting my leg and my hand to
2:11:41
act all the time- Mm-hmm â¦ and then suddenly I abandon him in that moment
2:11:47
and he feels lost, we could have a not great outcome for that child.
2:11:52
But if I can prepare the horse and myself together into a unit over
2:11:58
time, and I stress over time, this is another thing about descente
2:12:01
demande, descente de jambe, it's not something that happens immediately.
2:12:05
It's, it's a process like everything.
2:12:07
But let's say we go through- Yeah, but
2:12:09
Dominique Barbier: can I,
2:12:09
can I- Yeah â¦ can I say
2:12:10
Dominique Barbier: something?
2:12:10
It's a process- But, but for me, it's entirely practical- It is â¦ because
2:12:13
there are so many times I cannot use- Yeah
2:12:16
â¦ Dominique Barbier: my, my leg But it is a process, but it's not.
2:12:19
You know, the big thing about the, the, the big recipes of the chef is
2:12:22
that they never talk about descente demande, descente de, de jambe.
2:12:25
Mm.
2:12:26
The, it was kind of a mystical thing that they were not-
2:12:28
No â¦ talking about it, yeah?
2:12:30
Why?
2:12:30
Yeah.
2:12:30
Dominique Barbier: But you can have a descente demande,
2:12:31
descente de jambe at the walk.
2:12:34
Yes, sure.
2:12:34
Dominique Barbier: On, on, on the circle with a pony.
2:12:36
Absolutely.
2:12:37
Absolutely.
2:12:38
No, absolutely.
2:12:38
But- Absolutely.
2:12:38
Absolutely.
2:12:38
Absolutely.
2:12:39
Absolutely.
2:12:39
Absolutely.
2:12:40
Dominique Barbier: Again, again, it's a, it's a vision.
2:12:43
It's a, it's a different way to look at things.
2:12:45
100%.
2:12:46
No, w- with that, 100%.
2:12:48
Yeah, we couldâ¦
2:12:49
In fact, I think we're going to have, with your permission, we're going to have a
2:12:54
series of other conversations, I think, around these concepts because, which
2:12:59
we should do as YouTube conversations that are different to this podcast
2:13:03
because this podcast is much more really how did you become you and what
2:13:07
can we, you know, steal from you as we listen to you, which we've, I certainly
2:13:13
have stolen a lot from you already.
2:13:14
And you know, I'll continue to steal more hopefully.
2:13:17
But I think these nuances are really worth exploring as their own conversations
2:13:23
because, again, I think they're very helpful for people as they are exploring
2:13:29
the journey of this dressing of the horse thing as a way to love, as a way
2:13:35
to consciousness, as, as an expression of consciousness, as an expression of love.
2:13:39
And-
2:13:42
Because yes, as, as you say, y- y- y- you, you canâ¦
2:13:45
I- if I'm cantering with a child and I need descent demand, descent de jambe
2:13:51
because that child is now taking all of my attention, is taking my hands,
2:13:56
and Well, you taught- â¦ that's very different to the situation where
2:13:59
Dominique Barbier: I- You, you taught me, you taught me so- s- also something today.
2:14:02
I never thought- Yeah â¦ about having a child- Yeah â¦ galloping with me,
2:14:04
but if it, you need a child to think about it, that's fine with me also.
2:14:08
Yeah.
2:14:08
But when you are on your own and, and, and, and just doing it with, with
2:14:12
nothing- Yeah â¦ to to, to consciously have a different knowledge and different
2:14:17
aspect of life that's, that's fabulous.
2:14:20
Yeah.
2:14:20
Fabulous.
2:14:21
Yes.
2:14:22
And interestingly, what that brings me to, you know, you talk about consciousness,
2:14:25
you talk about love, purpose.
2:14:27
Service.
2:14:29
So the only reason I'm doing the dressage thing at all was because I found it was
2:14:34
a way to bring wellbeing to a child, and then I found- Yep, yep â¦ that
2:14:38
you could also use it, if you did it the right way, you could use it to
2:14:41
give wellbeing to the horse as well.
2:14:43
Fantastic.
2:14:44
And now you've got a horse with wellbeing that can give a child wellbeing.
2:14:47
And, and
2:14:47
Dominique Barbier: you- Fantastic â¦ and you get, and
2:14:49
you get more and more conscious-
2:14:52
Indeed
2:14:52
â¦ Dominique Barbier: of what you are doing, and more and more you,
2:14:55
you elevate your understanding of everything else with, with that.
2:15:01
And this is a difficulty with competition, is that the service- Well, well-
2:15:04
There's nothing wrong intrinsically with competition, but the service is to theâ¦
2:15:09
is really to yourself.
2:15:11
Dominique Barbier: Yeah.
2:15:12
Not, not, not, not-
2:15:14
Dominique Barbier: and that's where it gets tricky.
2:15:14
And that's where it gets tricky â¦ not, not even.
2:15:15
Not even.
2:15:15
Can you see how many happy competitive people you have in the world?
2:15:19
No.
2:15:19
Yeah, sure.
2:15:20
Not
2:15:20
Dominique Barbier: many.
2:15:20
Okay.
2:15:20
Well- Yeah â¦ that's just, that's just a, it's just one of those
2:15:23
illusion that you can create- Mm-hmm
2:15:26
and then, and then, and then you enjoy it, and then you, people do this, do, do that,
2:15:30
and they, and they mature, and- Mm-hmm â¦ and the, they, they mature, they decided
2:15:35
they don't wanna compete anymore.
2:15:36
Yeah.
2:15:37
Absolutely.
2:15:38
Dominique Barbier: Because there's- Absolutely â¦ something else there.
2:15:39
There's so much more.
2:15:41
I think that, that really the, the, the, the way, the way we
2:15:46
ride is, is is, is more a path to, a, a, a path to enlightenment.
2:15:50
A path to- Mm-hmm â¦ really realize who we are- Mm-hmm â¦ really.
2:15:57
Yeah.
2:15:57
Dominique Barbier: And that's, and that's what it is.
2:15:59
That's a, that's a human experience thing.
2:16:01
What was it Confucius says?
2:16:02
To be happy, practice the arts.
2:16:05
Dominique Barbier: Yeah.
2:16:05
Yeah,
2:16:07
yeah,
2:16:09
Dominique Barbier: yeah.
2:16:10
Absolutely.
2:16:11
Listen, my friend, this has been wonderful, and we've, we've, we've hit the
2:16:15
two-hour mark, and I think that I c- I can think of, like, 20 further conversations
2:16:21
I would like to have with you.
2:16:22
So for, but also I think that the, the listeners and the viewers would
2:16:27
like to know how to get in t- contact with you and how to access your
2:16:30
books and how to come and train with you and work with you if they can.
2:16:34
So could you t- outline how they can make contact with you, w- websites, what are
2:16:40
your books, et cetera, so that they can-
2:16:42
Dominique Barbier: Okay.
2:16:42
Well, the- â¦ do that â¦ the best way, the best way for
2:16:44
this is to go to Barbier Farm.
2:16:47
Yes, Barbier Farm, at at ewell.com.
2:16:48
Mm-hmm.
2:16:52
And they would have all my books and all my saddles and all my videos
2:16:57
and all my I have a foundation.
2:16:59
They can they can have a subscription to, to my foundation.
2:17:03
They can do whatever they want, and then they can pick up the phone.
2:17:06
Okay.
2:17:07
Even, even my phone, I'm always available, or send me, send me an email,
2:17:12
and they say what they want to know.
2:17:13
And generally, I, I'm pretty good.
2:17:16
I do answer most of, most of, of it.
2:17:18
And if I don't answer, send it back, and I will answer you again.
2:17:22
And then if you have nothing, you know, better to do, come
2:17:24
to California when I am there.
2:17:27
Make sure I am there 'cause I'm, I am generally somewhere else.
2:17:31
Therefore, just tell me.
2:17:32
We do a, we do a symposium and a clinic at, at home in California,
2:17:37
and, and then you can catch me.
2:17:39
You can have, have the list of where you catch me.
2:17:41
You can catch me this week in Portugal, and next week in in in Switzerland,
2:17:46
and and the week after in Idaho.
2:17:49
Therefore-
2:17:50
So I'm looking at your website here, and it's- Yes
2:17:51
dominiquebarbier.com.
2:17:53
Dominique Barbier: That's it.
2:17:54
So Dominique with a Q-U-E.
2:17:56
Yes.
2:17:57
And Barbier, of course, B-A-R-B-I-E-R.
2:18:00
Yes.
2:18:01
Dominiquebarbier.com.
2:18:01
And you've got your telephone number right here on the contact page, so- That's
2:18:05
Dominique Barbier: it.
2:18:06
I got everything.
2:18:07
Okay.
2:18:08
So, and I presume there's an email on there as well.
2:18:11
The books, my f- for my friends, I'm just addressing the listeners
2:18:14
and viewers, they're worth reading.
2:18:16
And so get yourself some of Dominique's books, and, you know, you just have-
2:18:20
Yeah â¦ to go to Zenathon Farm.
2:18:22
And, and then
2:18:22
Dominique Barbier: just a little word about this.
2:18:23
Buy it from me, don't buy it from Amazon.
2:18:27
Yeah.
2:18:27
Amazon is gonna kill us.
2:18:29
And for spend a, spend a little bit more money, and I promise I would
2:18:34
feed my horses with that money.
2:18:35
Yes.
2:18:36
Because all, all- I, as a, as a fellow with horses â¦ because all,
2:18:39
all, all my money go to my horses.
2:18:40
Therefore, but don't go to Amazon, just buy the book from
2:18:44
the people who write the book.
2:18:46
It's much more important than that.
2:18:48
Exactly.
2:18:48
We don't, we don't make money on books anyway- No â¦ as everybody knows.
2:18:53
That's true.
2:18:53
We don't make books to make money either.
2:18:55
No.
2:18:55
Therefore, it's okay.
2:18:57
But but buy the books from the, from the farm, and then, and
2:19:00
then come and visit any time.
2:19:02
Super.
2:19:03
And I'm certainly going to.
2:19:04
I'm gonna be in California next year.
2:19:07
So, In- â¦ maybe we should, I'll try to make sure that you're there.
2:19:11
Maybe we can
2:19:12
Dominique Barbier: Absolutely â¦ spend some time together.
2:19:14
I, and, and I have a good Merlot I forgot.
2:19:16
I would, I wo- I would I would make you taste my Merlot.
2:19:19
A wonderful Merlot I have.
2:19:20
Well, you know, just to be polite, I guess I could perhaps drink
2:19:25
a, a, a, a glass of good wine.
2:19:27
Dominique Barbier: That's
2:19:27
it.
2:19:28
I mean- That's it â¦ maybe for quality control I might have to
2:19:29
have a second glass just to make sure- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
2:19:32
if it was actually as fantastic- And the, and
2:19:33
Dominique Barbier: may, and maybe by accident I will give you a
2:19:35
bottle to, to bring home, you know.
2:19:38
It's it's, th- these things oneâ¦
2:19:40
Yes, I've, I've found there's, there's a progression, and then I can, then I
2:19:43
can go through a different process of descent du main and descent du jambe.
2:19:46
Dominique Barbier: That's it.
2:19:47
Then it's much easier, much easier.
2:19:48
Much
2:19:49
more direct, yeah.
2:19:50
Yes.
2:19:52
And I can- Very good â¦ I can, I can, I can then lose my consciousness, which is-
2:19:55
Dominique Barbier: That's it.
2:19:56
â¦ the mad, the mad joy of life, is it not?
2:19:57
Dominique Barbier: And then when you find it, you find it bigger.
2:20:02
A little slower each time, but yes.
2:20:04
Dominique Barbier: That's it.
2:20:04
Well, thank- Well,
2:20:05
listen my friend, it's been a- Thank
2:20:06
Dominique Barbier: you so
2:20:06
much
2:20:07
it's been a delight.
2:20:07
Yeah.
2:20:07
Thank you.
2:20:08
Thank
2:20:08
Dominique Barbier: you so much
2:20:10
Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.
2:20:11
Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.
2:20:13
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times bestselling author of
2:20:16
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2:20:18
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