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Tech and Democracy: How Can Both Be Connected to Create Trust? with Nexus Politics (EP 27) · The In-Between Tech and Trust Podcast

• 0:06
  Hello and welcome to the In Between Tech and Trust podcast.
• 0:10
  My name is Eva Lihotzky and in today's episode I talked to
• 0:14
  Magnus Stauber. He is Co founder of the startup
• 0:18
  Nexus Politics and together with his team, Magnus is on the
• 0:22
  mission to bring trust to the democratic process.
• 0:26
  We dive into his approach, his limitations, and also the
• 0:30
  challenges that he has encountered so far.
• 0:36
  Welcome, Magnus to the In Between Tech and Trust podcast.
• 0:39
  Thank you. It's a.
• 0:40
  Pleasure to be here. You've just founded a company or
• 0:43
  a startup in the intersection of democracy and also society.
• 0:48
  And when you now think about tech and trust, what's the first
• 0:51
  thing that comes to your mind? Simply said, it can be improved
• 0:55
  to be honest. That's that's what.
• 0:57
  We're trying to achieve with Nexus politics.
• 0:59
  I think there's room to go. There's so much that that can be
• 1:03
  done these days that couldn't be done like in a.
• 1:05
  Like a couple of years back. Especially when I think of AI,
• 1:09
  the advancements there, what's what's possible now with like
• 1:12
  aggregating individual opinions, like analysing it and also
• 1:16
  deriving like policy insights, policy.
• 1:19
  Recommendations out of it? So I guess there's.
• 1:21
  There's so much that can be done and should be improved, and
• 1:24
  that's what we are trying to achieve with Nexus Politics.
• 1:26
  And so your company sits at the intersection of like technology
• 1:32
  and also the society or voters, so to say.
• 1:36
  And if we zoom out, politics is one of the domains of where
• 1:40
  trust is perceived as quite fragile and also challenged by
• 1:45
  now. In your founding history, what
• 1:48
  was the moment when you realize that technology can play a
• 1:52
  different role? Yeah, that's a good question.
• 1:54
  I think there was no specific moment.
• 1:57
  Where I realized. Like now, that's the point of
• 2:00
  time where I think we should get it started it.
• 2:02
  Was more like a greater process. Like from both sides.
• 2:05
  I mean 111 side is like the technical.
• 2:08
  Aspects of it. The enabler technologies.
• 2:10
  Which are out there these days. But on the other side, it's the
• 2:13
  demand side. So the.
• 2:15
  Side, I guess where we have. Seen this constant?
• 2:17
  Deterioration and trust. In politics and also a.
• 2:21
  Lack of? Yeah, like.
• 2:22
  Like people just being dissatisfied with how democracy
• 2:25
  functions, which is like. The core.
• 2:28
  Problem that we are. Trying to address.
• 2:29
  And I guess the combination out of the two made me think and
• 2:34
  also my my Co founders. It's not just my idea, it's.
• 2:37
  Also my my Co founders Christopher Buffalo's idea.
• 2:40
  On Yeah building Nexus. Politics as a device, as a.
• 2:44
  Platform in order to bring. Trust back into politics.
• 2:48
  Can you trade a bit on how you do it?
• 2:50
  Because I mean, the ambition is quite important, but also quite
• 2:55
  challenging to translate it into tech and to navigate that space
• 3:00
  of the personal perception of the voters and like democracy as
• 3:05
  an institution. And particularly, in which
• 3:07
  environment are you stepping into?
• 3:10
  Yeah. So product itself I typically
• 3:14
  call. It like a digital democracy
• 3:15
  platform also. Operating system for digital.
• 3:18
  Democracy. So what?
• 3:19
  We're trying to achieve is like we're.
• 3:21
  Addressing the problem of dissatisfaction with how
• 3:25
  democracy functions. So this is where important.
• 3:27
  We're not dressing. Like the issue?
• 3:29
  Of unsatisfied or dissatisfaction with democracy
• 3:32
  itself, but rather. Like how it works so the.
• 3:35
  Process is behind and what we're.
• 3:36
  Trying to achieve. Is more participation as the
• 3:39
  first element. The second element is
• 3:41
  transparency and the third one is accountability and what we
• 3:45
  are doing in particular in order to.
• 3:47
  Address these topics as. First and foremost, we want to
• 3:51
  give people a voice and opinion like that they can easily.
• 3:54
  Share or voice their. Opinions by coming on our
• 3:58
  website having like a chat interface.
• 4:00
  There where? The chat interface gives them
• 4:02
  the opportunity to voice their opinions, ask questions sticks.
• 4:06
  Deeper just to get like a. Broader sense of.
• 4:08
  The problem or the issue the person has?
• 4:11
  And then we analyse it with artificial intelligence.
• 4:14
  In order to route it directly. To the responsible politicians
• 4:17
  or political actors. And then we give.
• 4:20
  Those politicians like the whole tool kit or.
• 4:24
  Set of governance tools in order to stay accountable to the to
• 4:28
  their constituents and give updates on what they're doing.
• 4:32
  So basically what we. Want to do?
• 4:34
  There's like. Opening up the black.
• 4:36
  Box of politics so Well, it's actually.
• 4:39
  To be fair, it's not a black. Box.
• 4:41
  It's rather like. The information is.
• 4:43
  Out there, but it's it's very. Fragmented.
• 4:45
  It's it's not very interconnected.
• 4:47
  It's hard to get all this data. What what we are trying to
• 4:50
  achieve with Nexus politics and that's also where our name comes
• 4:53
  from, is to to bring all these components together like think
• 4:56
  them on porn website. That's what Nexus stands for and
• 5:00
  and they're giving a single entry point into politics.
• 5:02
  Where it's where it's easy to see what's.
• 5:04
  Going on, so you voice your opinion on Nexus politics?
• 5:08
  And we we provide you with. All the information that are
• 5:10
  relevant to. Your particular case so.
• 5:12
  That could be like petitions that are going on that.
• 5:15
  Could be like protests. That you could join, that could
• 5:19
  be civic engagement movements that are trying to target your
• 5:23
  particular issue and then also like giving you all the insights
• 5:26
  and what Parliament have been discussing about your topic and
• 5:30
  and so on. So that's it in a nutshell.
• 5:32
  And how do you navigate the neutrality that you need to keep
• 5:37
  in order to reflect upon the fragmented landscape and also
• 5:43
  the opinionated positions of the different kind of the political
• 5:47
  parties? That's a very good question.
• 5:49
  So I I guess. 22 answers to that.
• 5:52
  So first one, staying politically neutral as an
• 5:55
  institution that are like like Nexus politics as an institution
• 5:59
  by being first and foremost for. Profit rather than.
• 6:02
  Not-for-profit. Because if it.
• 6:04
  Would be not-for-profit, then I guess we would be highly
• 6:06
  dependent on donations and we cannot credibly claim we are
• 6:11
  politically independent and then being funded by organizations
• 6:15
  that are typically leaning. Towards political goals and.
• 6:18
  Political agendas in one way or the other.
• 6:21
  And the other second pillar that we are relying on is
• 6:24
  transparency from our side. So by either opening like
• 6:28
  sharing our code or being transparent.
• 6:30
  About our internal processes etcetera.
• 6:33
  So these are the 2 two approaches.
• 6:35
  We're we're using there. To credibly showcase our
• 6:38
  political neutrality. And we talk a lot about tech in
• 6:42
  this podcast, and you just share that you open source or share
• 6:46
  like how your platform is being built and how do you do that?
• 6:50
  So how would people be able to interact with what you're
• 6:55
  building? And how do you also scale up
• 6:59
  that particular platform in a way that it stays robust and is
• 7:04
  able to follow through on the ambition that you've voiced?
• 7:08
  We're. Building open source so everyone
• 7:10
  can can see what we're doing, inviting people to to link to
• 7:16
  our platform so we don't want to.
• 7:17
  Build the whole. Ecosystem by ourselves.
• 7:20
  So this is also very important, like whenever there's an A
• 7:23
  platform out there. Like a tool.
• 7:26
  In the political sphere like civic engagement or government
• 7:28
  covenants, tool, that is. Willing to collaborate, We are
• 7:31
  more than. Welcome.
• 7:32
  Or they are more than welcome to do it.
• 7:34
  With us and so. We want to share.
• 7:35
  Our data as well. Also we're.
• 7:37
  Sharing our data with academia, of course, on an anonymous level
• 7:41
  just to make sure that we're not revealing any personal, personal
• 7:44
  information. So it's that's important to to
• 7:47
  mention here and yeah. We we are just.
• 7:49
  Open minded, so everyone who wants to work.
• 7:51
  With us is more than. Welcome to work on this topic.
• 7:54
  Because we are rather. Impact driven, so everyone.
• 7:57
  Who helps us? Achieving our mission.
• 8:00
  Is is welcome to to. Join our journey and you now
• 8:03
  build up the system of like partners or those partners that
• 8:07
  join your journey. And you carry a particular
• 8:11
  responsibility because you also build up the system as a
• 8:16
  platform. But you would at the same time
• 8:19
  ensure that political positions, promises and decisions aren't
• 8:24
  just like articulated, but they should stay accountable over
• 8:29
  time. So that means that you also
• 8:31
  navigate shifting opinions. How do you do that?
• 8:34
  So the accountability part is ensured by first and foremost,
• 8:39
  we're mapping public opinions. So we all living in.
• 8:41
  Representative democracies, right?
• 8:43
  So one of the first key components that you have to have
• 8:46
  in a representative democracy is that you know what population
• 8:51
  thinks what what. Actually.
• 8:54
  Like what? What opinion people are holding,
• 8:56
  and this is what we're doing with Nexus politics.
• 8:59
  So we are mapping public opinion in real time, meaning we
• 9:02
  showcase. It it's it's.
• 9:04
  Transparent for everyone to see what Germany, what Bavaria of
• 9:08
  what Munich is thinking about. A particular topic.
• 9:11
  And then we can. Basically build this delta of
• 9:15
  this gap. In between what what people
• 9:17
  think on a representative level and also what politicians then
• 9:22
  do about it. Yeah, this is.
• 9:25
  I guess first and foremost by like showing.
• 9:27
  The discrepancies in. Between the two and then and
• 9:30
  then secondly. Of course we incorporate.
• 9:32
  Other features similar to to platforms like UP, Got that
• 9:36
  Watch etcetera they can. Hold your politicians.
• 9:39
  Accountable in in that. Regard and so this is also
• 9:42
  incorporated. In our platform and politicians
• 9:45
  can transparently. Report about the.
• 9:46
  Progress by themselves. But what we also.
• 9:49
  Building into the platform is we are linking all the parliaments
• 9:53
  with all the. Transcripts.
• 9:55
  Of of the parliamentary sessions.
• 9:57
  So we are also they are increasing transparency in the.
• 10:00
  Processes and showcasing what? Has been done or what not has
• 10:04
  hasn't been done in order. To address the.
• 10:07
  Problems that people wise. To hold politicians accountable.
• 10:11
  There and I do want to get to your founding story because it's
• 10:15
  also quite interesting time for you to a founder startup and B
• 10:20
  founded in a political context because we like realized that
• 10:25
  the political landscape is also somewhat under pressure.
• 10:29
  And what made you confident that this is the exact moment that
• 10:33
  you want to found Nexus politics, but also that you
• 10:37
  wanna get into politics itself to change something?
• 10:42
  Good? Good question.
• 10:43
  So I'm not sure. If it's the perfect.
• 10:45
  Moment, but it's. It's a quite.
• 10:47
  Good moment I guess. First of all, because I guess.
• 10:50
  Political dissatisfaction is rising not just in Germany but
• 10:54
  basically in all Western democracies, and this has been.
• 10:57
  A process that. Did not just.
• 10:59
  Start like yesterday it. Has been going on for like
• 11:01
  10/10/15 years already, it's only it's only getting worse.
• 11:06
  So trust is eroding. So something has to be done
• 11:08
  about it. And yeah, what?
• 11:11
  Why now? I guess there's also personal
• 11:15
  aspects. Playing a role here.
• 11:17
  So yeah, I met my. Co founder Christophe like 2
• 11:21
  years ago. And then we started thinking
• 11:24
  about. What are the biggest?
• 11:25
  Pressing issues of our time and where do we contribute, Want to
• 11:29
  contribute? And again and again, we came
• 11:32
  back. To this topic of.
• 11:34
  Dissatisfaction with how democracy works and.
• 11:37
  I guess it's also. Like not just looking back in
• 11:40
  terms of. Like it it has gotten worse but
• 11:43
  also like the the prospects I guess.
• 11:45
  We are facing so many important challenges going forward, also
• 11:50
  in terms of. Like technological progress?
• 11:52
  And what that means for our societies and our labour markets
• 11:56
  and etcetera. And I think we have to have
• 11:58
  these super important discussions now in terms of how
• 12:01
  we want to deal with that and we want Nexus politics.
• 12:05
  To be be. Like one part of the solution, I
• 12:08
  like offering the platform to hold this super important
• 12:11
  conversations about how we want to.
• 12:13
  Structure our society. Going forward and how we.
• 12:15
  Want to address these big big topics?
• 12:17
  And most founders set themselves moon shot goals or like targets
• 12:22
  that are hard to achieve. So can you share?
• 12:25
  Do you want to share whether or not you have one?
• 12:27
  But what would be the ideal impact, let's say 5 to 10 years
• 12:32
  going forward that you have had looking back on your journey of
• 12:36
  founding Nexus politics? Sure, I guess.
• 12:40
  One of our role models is Audrey.
• 12:42
  Chang, she was the digital minister in Taiwan and
• 12:46
  implemented like a similar solution there, so.
• 12:49
  They have. They have had.
• 12:50
  Similar issues with like political dissatisfaction and.
• 12:53
  Distrust into politics? And then what?
• 12:56
  What she did is she heavily relied.
• 12:58
  Or build, build a platform for like political participation and
• 13:02
  like, really? Press the topic.
• 13:04
  And I guess satisfaction. With democracy rose.
• 13:08
  Significantly under her term and I think that.
• 13:10
  Showcases that political tech tools like ours.
• 13:14
  Can make an impact. Of course, it's always hard to
• 13:16
  differentiate. Of course.
• 13:18
  What's the? Particular impact of that
• 13:21
  particular tool. Or was it rather?
• 13:23
  Like just a general effect over time.
• 13:27
  So to to disentangle all these effects.
• 13:30
  That are going on at the same time, but I guess fast looking
• 13:35
  ahead 10 years I guess. It would be a huge success.
• 13:38
  If we don't have these debates anymore about societies falling
• 13:42
  apart. Mistrusting each other, distrust
• 13:45
  in politics, all these topics. That you can reach constantly
• 13:48
  and then use. If those vanish or at least
• 13:51
  become less frequently talked about, then that would be
• 13:54
  already quite a significant contribution and on a on a more
• 13:58
  specific level on Nexus. Politics, I guess.
• 14:01
  What we would. Like to achieve is.
• 14:02
  That when people think about tech and politics in the future,
• 14:06
  but the first thing that comes to the mind is like Nexus
• 14:08
  politics. So.
• 14:09
  Think of LinkedIn for work. When you think of tech for work
• 14:12
  then everyone thinks of LinkedIn and same pattern hopefully
• 14:16
  builds in the future for for Nexus.
• 14:17
  Politics. So that would be our goal.
• 14:19
  Now this year, you've launched the platform and you've built it
• 14:23
  and are evolving it iteratively. But up until now, what were the
• 14:28
  hardest design decisions when you built your platform,
• 14:33
  especially when it comes to the trust that you want to build
• 14:36
  with, like the users on it and in connecting them to the
• 14:40
  political environment? I guess the hardest part is
• 14:43
  always reality. So reality in a sense that you
• 14:46
  have this ideal path of how you. Would build your company.
• 14:50
  So first you do this and then you do this and so on.
• 14:53
  But of course. Founder.
• 14:55
  Founder Journeys. Are very seldomly like this, so
• 14:58
  typically you're dealing. With 1,000,000 things at the
• 15:00
  same time, and this is also what?
• 15:02
  What makes it hard? Because you cannot just.
• 15:05
  Like build. Slowly and do.
• 15:08
  It step by step, but of. Course you have to fundraise at
• 15:10
  the same time you have to. You have to reach out already to
• 15:14
  particular stakeholders. Do networking.
• 15:17
  Etcetera, whilst you're still building the product and ideally
• 15:21
  I guess you would first. Get a feedback, then build it,
• 15:25
  then get feedback again on and that product and so on.
• 15:28
  But yeah, it's it's not. Such a structured process.
• 15:31
  To be honest, so it's not, it's not unfortunately.
• 15:36
  Well, we're. We're trying our best I guess,
• 15:39
  and. So far it's it's going rather
• 15:41
  well, I would say. But yeah.
• 15:43
  I mean, sometimes you you figure like something that you might
• 15:46
  have built in in the past is actually not what do you think
• 15:50
  politicians want to? Have that desperately or or
• 15:53
  like. That citizens need that.
• 15:55
  Desperate. Desperately so.
• 15:57
  I mean, I guess it's an. Iterative learning.
• 15:59
  Process from both sides. And yeah, we we are.
• 16:03
  Way into it now and it's. Rather going well.
• 16:07
  I like the rather again, that drives me exactly to the next
• 16:13
  question. Where was the biggest surprise
• 16:16
  for you in the iterative build up of the platform or maybe also
• 16:21
  in, you know, realizing that you thought you want to have feature
• 16:25
  and then it turned out that this was like the least preferred one
• 16:29
  or you received feedback why and you desperately needed to pivot
• 16:33
  or go in another direction. Did you have any of those
• 16:36
  moments already? The the biggest surprise, I
• 16:38
  guess was so far the very positive feedback that we got.
• 16:43
  Generally, like, there's hardly, I mean.
• 16:47
  That's that's also pro. Yeah, that's probably also
• 16:51
  because what we are. Building we.
• 16:53
  We we branded as a digital. Democracy platform and of.
• 16:57
  Course, if your customers. Are politicians.
• 16:59
  There's no politician who will tell you he does not like.
• 17:02
  A digital democracy platform, but at.
• 17:04
  The end of the day. You you only see.
• 17:06
  Like when when they use the platform in the future or not.
• 17:09
  Whether you really succeeded? In building something meaningful
• 17:12
  for them, so and this has. Still to be decided.
• 17:15
  Listening to you, it also could be that you're quite self
• 17:19
  critical, because isn't that also a quite nice thing to have
• 17:22
  to receive like positive feedback?
• 17:24
  But of course, I also understand it's hard to estimate whether or
• 17:28
  not you like are on the right track or not, particularly in
• 17:31
  that environment. You just said that politicians
• 17:34
  might not like they're, you wouldn't expect like a negative
• 17:38
  feedback from them. Do you think that they are
• 17:40
  equipped to enter the space of transparent communication in
• 17:45
  that sense and to use like platforms and technology to
• 17:50
  their respective positioning and to also voice their political
• 17:55
  agenda? Yes, definitely, I guess.
• 17:57
  We we see the. Adoption of of tools and the
• 18:01
  political spaces very much increasing in in recent years.
• 18:05
  So you can see it on on in all different regards.
• 18:08
  Like be it like political tech conferences which grow.
• 18:11
  Grow bigger and bigger each year.
• 18:13
  You can see it in the start-ups popping up.
• 18:16
  All over the place. Working on such solutions, you
• 18:18
  can also see it on on government agencies so.
• 18:22
  Sprint has been recently. Launched for golf.
• 18:25
  Tech as well, like. Yeah, where you can just.
• 18:30
  See, there's more public. Funding going into that sphere
• 18:32
  and. Yeah, so that there's a.
• 18:34
  Lot being done being worked on right now.
• 18:38
  So I guess it's a, It's a. Good time to to work on, on that
• 18:41
  particular topic and, and do you believe on solution, Do you
• 18:45
  believe that tech can help rebuild democratic trust?
• 18:49
  I guess so, Otherwise we. Wouldn't be doing it.
• 18:51
  Simple answer now of. Course, I mean it's it's as
• 18:53
  always in life, there's not just.
• 18:55
  One side. Of it, there's always two sides,
• 18:57
  so for tech it's the same. Like tech can be a solution, but
• 19:01
  can also be a problem at the same time.
• 19:03
  So two sides of the metal and. So far we are we have mostly
• 19:07
  heard. About the negative.
• 19:08
  Aspects of tech especially. In Germany.
• 19:11
  That we that we are rather critical of like.
• 19:14
  Social platforms like social media, how it divides our
• 19:17
  democracies and stuff like that. But I guess it's also the.
• 19:20
  End of the day, the solution because imagine a world without.
• 19:24
  All of that stuff. I mean.
• 19:25
  Would we really be? More united?
• 19:28
  Or would it all be better? I don't know.
• 19:31
  Because it's an. Also an enabler.
• 19:32
  Technology and so many. Things have been created.
• 19:35
  Out of these connections that were made on social media or so
• 19:38
  many initiatives. Were started just recently.
• 19:42
  When we went to Copenhagen for the for the rebuild conference,
• 19:47
  I guess I don't know if something like that.
• 19:49
  Would have worked without. Social media, bringing all these
• 19:52
  people together, making people aware of these initiatives going
• 19:55
  on and. So therefore, yeah, it's it's a
• 19:57
  2 sided sword. We try to Polish the the other
• 20:01
  side. A little more now with tech as a
• 20:05
  solution to the to the whole thing rather than being a
• 20:07
  problem. How do you navigate the risks,
• 20:11
  but also the opportunities to it.
• 20:12
  So you've just highlighted in tech being A2 sided sword, but I
• 20:16
  mean the IT flips right? Depending on the use case and
• 20:20
  the interaction that you have with the the the platform, it
• 20:24
  becomes difficult to estimate or maybe we also to navigate how do
• 20:28
  you approach that as a company? It's a good question.
• 20:31
  I guess by by. Testing you, you would.
• 20:35
  See. Like how?
• 20:36
  People interact with your. Product How?
• 20:38
  People use it and what kind of outcomes it creates and.
• 20:41
  Of course we have our KPIs that we're we're.
• 20:43
  Trying to measure and this gives you insights into what kind of
• 20:48
  outcome you're you're achieving with what you intended at the
• 20:51
  beginning. And of course there can be
• 20:53
  discrepancies in between what you think might be the outcome
• 20:56
  come and also in terms of what actually is the outcomes.
• 20:59
  My background is in behavioural economics and I guess there.
• 21:02
  Are 1,000,000. Interesting examples of good
• 21:05
  intentions and bad outcomes. So one has to be.
• 21:08
  Very careful about what what you build.
• 21:10
  There and. How it will be used because?
• 21:13
  Everything can be misused. As well so.
• 21:16
  Even if you have the best. Product it also.
• 21:18
  At the end of the day, also depends.
• 21:19
  On how the people. Use it and.
• 21:21
  This can be taken into account when you design it, but only to
• 21:26
  such an extent and. For the rest, you have to be
• 21:29
  able to reiterate. Work on it constantly improve it
• 21:33
  and see what. What the use cases are?
• 21:37
  Absolutely want to go into the user aspects of it and talk a
• 21:42
  bit about the ways that user interact with like politics on a
• 21:47
  like macro level and then translated into what you provide
• 21:51
  in terms of platform. What is the biggest challenge
• 21:53
  for you in user behaviour currently or maybe also voter
• 21:58
  behaviour? Basically to have them trust you
• 22:03
  in using your platform for them to form an opinion about the
• 22:07
  political. Yeah, good question.
• 22:10
  So I guess. We are having the same problems.
• 22:12
  As every other startup, at the beginnings you're just first of.
• 22:15
  All one player out there and why should.
• 22:17
  Citizens, people trust you rather.
• 22:19
  Than anyone else. So I guess.
• 22:21
  It's very important. To showcase how you deal with
• 22:26
  like the data. So for us.
• 22:27
  It's like for instance, we. Are we are fully.
• 22:29
  Compliant with GDPR. The AI Directive.
• 22:34
  And and so on. So this.
• 22:35
  Is not just because we have to, because.
• 22:37
  It's it's one of our core promises.
• 22:39
  I guess to our users that we, yeah.
• 22:43
  For instance, like in Germany, it's a, it's a.
• 22:45
  Big topic that your data is hosted.
• 22:47
  In Germany, or at least the European Union.
• 22:49
  So we are fully. Compliant with that and and and.
• 22:52
  Other aspects of it. This is 1 aspect, so the legal
• 22:56
  and compliance. Part of it.
• 22:58
  Then it's. Also like how you approach the
• 23:01
  whole. Situation in terms of who you
• 23:03
  partner with, like the institutions you're supported by
• 23:06
  etcetera that can be trust building for our.
• 23:10
  Case it's we are. Both alumni of the Technical
• 23:14
  University of Manic. So we're strongly embedded in
• 23:17
  the local ecosystem here. We're part of the term
• 23:19
  incubator. We're supported by the.
• 23:21
  Professorship of. Policy analysis at the Technical
• 23:25
  University, but then again, we also part of different other
• 23:29
  initiatives, for instance, the Munich Impact Incubator.
• 23:31
  So we are one of the one of five impact start-ups in the city of
• 23:35
  Munich and also Social Impact Republic, for instance, who help
• 23:39
  us refine our impact model and yeah, make.
• 23:43
  Sure that we achieve. Our very ambitious impact.
• 23:46
  Goals. And when you have institutions
• 23:49
  like these supporting you? I guess this is.
• 23:51
  Trust building and and helps others.
• 23:54
  Yeah, to to. Overcome this initial scepticism
• 23:57
  that I fully understand when you are navigating the, the online
• 24:00
  sphere that you just don't share your, your data with any
• 24:04
  platform out there. And yeah, then I'll, as
• 24:08
  mentioned earlier, general approach about transparency.
• 24:11
  Interestingly, you just named some of the like prominent
• 24:15
  voices in the ecosystem for startups here in Munich.
• 24:19
  So we both are based out of Munich and are quite familiar
• 24:23
  with the context here. And when we met last time, I
• 24:27
  remember a sentence that you said and you said if we fail,
• 24:31
  then it's definitely up to us because the ecosystem is so
• 24:34
  strong that that it can't be due to, you know, the lack of
• 24:41
  support, for example. And I needed to smile.
• 24:45
  And at the same time, I do want to ask you what the support
• 24:48
  means to you and what makes Munich as a founding city or
• 24:52
  founder city so special, if it's the ecosystem, the support or
• 24:56
  maybe something else that you helps you enter, like the
• 25:00
  journey that you're on. Yeah, I think I.
• 25:02
  I still. Still think that the statement
• 25:06
  that I made. Back then is right, so we have
• 25:09
  a. Super amazing ecosystem here in
• 25:11
  Munich that supports us or The thing is that there are million.
• 25:16
  Ways to fail. But typically just one or two.
• 25:20
  Hard to be right so that that makes it of course tricky at the
• 25:24
  end of the day. To church like.
• 25:26
  Where we where it all went wrong?
• 25:28
  It's definitely real. That's just pressure is awesome.
• 25:31
  Just hatching myself here. No, just kidding, just kidding.
• 25:34
  But I guess overall. What?
• 25:37
  What does the support mean to? Us first of first and foremost,
• 25:41
  of course. It's like the financial support.
• 25:43
  That that we get so we are exist.
• 25:45
  Funded so that's. Quite a big privilege.
• 25:48
  Of having the opportunity to dedicate.
• 25:51
  Like a whole year to your project.
• 25:53
  Work on, work on it. See what opportunities are
• 25:57
  there. So not everyone has that.
• 25:58
  Then secondly, we we got financial support by the city of
• 26:01
  Munich. So that's very good to have.
• 26:02
  But then it's also like the opportunities, like so many.
• 26:05
  People who deeply care about our project, Who?
• 26:09
  Reach out to me whenever they see something so we I feel like
• 26:12
  I have a million eyes. Keeping eye on every
• 26:14
  opportunity. Out there which I.
• 26:16
  Myself would not be. Able to to do so.
• 26:20
  This is like super helpful. And then like the amazing amount
• 26:24
  of talent that you have in Munich with all these super good
• 26:27
  universities around. So that helps.
• 26:29
  Quite a lot. All these events that are taking
• 26:32
  place where you can showcase your solutions, get get
• 26:34
  feedback. Etcetera.
• 26:36
  So this is also super. Valuable, yeah.
• 26:38
  So kudos. Well done the.
• 26:40
  Munich ecosystem is really good. Especially also in comparison to
• 26:45
  two other. Cities.
• 26:46
  So I guess there are only a. Few that might be.
• 26:50
  Better, but yeah, fast. It's the perfect.
• 26:52
  Place to build and yeah, we're. Quite happy to be.
• 26:55
  Based in Munich and well, we're not just based based in Unix.
• 26:58
  So now we have a team for all over Germany basically, but the
• 27:01
  core team is here and that's where we take part in the
• 27:05
  ecosystem. Is there any point of view that
• 27:08
  you have on the discussion that is currently going on in terms
• 27:13
  of financial funding based out of Europe versus the US and what
• 27:18
  the particular differences are, especially when it comes to
• 27:22
  scaling startup? I mean, you're quite early on
• 27:25
  your journey, but probably you have either put a thought into
• 27:29
  it or at least like you have an opinion about how whole
• 27:33
  discussion is being formed. Yeah, good question, I think.
• 27:39
  It's right what most people say, that it's the the.
• 27:42
  Probably bigger funding opportunities in the US than in
• 27:45
  Europe, but it's not just funding, it's also like.
• 27:48
  The. The level of integration.
• 27:50
  That that's a hindrance. Here in Europe, so we're talking
• 27:54
  now about EU Inc, which should be implemented pretty soon.
• 27:57
  I guess that would be a big improvement, but.
• 28:01
  Yeah, I, I. Think at the end of the day,
• 28:03
  you're building for local, local markets and we see our core
• 28:07
  market here here in Europe at the beginning, at least at the
• 28:12
  end of the. Day our products our.
• 28:14
  Platform scales to all representative democracy, so we
• 28:17
  can also. See ourselves going to the US,
• 28:20
  Australia or other. Countries where?
• 28:22
  Where we have similar problems but.
• 28:24
  Funding wise, yeah. I guess it's true like the the
• 28:27
  early. The early funding is quite
• 28:30
  sufficient. But then there's the so-called
• 28:33
  Valley of. Death, you're in between the
• 28:35
  like your MVP and and scaling your product and.
• 28:38
  This is I guess that the biggest problem.
• 28:41
  We're having in Germany right now.
• 28:42
  Maybe also in Europe. That that many promising ideas.
• 28:46
  Start-ups. Fail in this period and because
• 28:48
  we have brilliant people here in Germany, brilliant people in
• 28:52
  Europe who who can build and can change the world for their.
• 28:55
  Products, but it's. It's on us to support them on
• 28:57
  this. Critical step from.
• 28:59
  Like being like a a small solution or having an MVP up to
• 29:02
  making it big and and the. US has.
• 29:05
  Way more experience, I guess in, in terms of doing that, but
• 29:09
  we're catching up. Quickly.
• 29:10
  I guess so. You can see all these
• 29:12
  initiatives in Europe forming also like rebuilding in
• 29:15
  Copenhagen that I mentioned already.
• 29:17
  Yeah, I'm, I'm very optimistic. That this get might.
• 29:20
  Also, at least become smaller smaller in the future and
• 29:24
  become. Less, less, less of a hindrance
• 29:26
  to. To built in Europe.
• 29:28
  What a great outlook. I I'm curious to follow that
• 29:32
  along with what particularly that means to you.
• 29:34
  And since we're now coming to the end of our conversation and
• 29:37
  the podcast episode, I want to take some in between moments
• 29:41
  with you, which are intuitive reflections and that you would
• 29:45
  answer with like a one word or a very short sentence.
• 29:48
  And the first moment that I want to put out there is what trust
• 29:52
  in politics feels like to you. It should be improved.
• 29:55
  So that's my answer. And what should technology never
• 29:58
  do? Divide people.
• 30:00
  And what needs democracy more of Nexus politics?
• 30:03
  And when does civic participation break?
• 30:07
  When there's no trust anymore. And is there a word that you as
• 30:10
  a person, founder, dad are currently in between?
• 30:14
  That's the trickiest question. I guess we're.
• 30:16
  We're we're in between like having our product now and and
• 30:21
  scaling it and they are, yeah. This is where we are right now.
• 30:25
  So it's it's, it's our current situation that.
• 30:27
  Would be my answer. Amazing.
• 30:30
  Thank you for the conversation and for taking us along on your
• 30:34
  founders and politician or politics journey at the
• 30:38
  intersection of tech, tech, trust and democracy.
• 30:42
  And I'm curious follow along. Was a pleasure thanks Ava for.
• 30:46
  Having me on the. Podcast yeah would be very
• 30:48
  excited if all of. Your listeners.
• 30:50
  Could visit our website and yeah, please give it a try.
• 30:53
  Yeah, looking forward to. What's ahead of us?
• 30:55
  Thank you everyone. Amazing.
• 30:56
  I'll also link it in the show notes.
• 30:58
  Bye.