Latest / The Right Time with Bomani Jones / Howard Bryant on How the 1986 NBA Draft Changed the NBA Forever | 06.23

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Howard Bryant on How the 1986 NBA Draft Changed the NBA Forever | 06.23 · The Right Time with Bomani Jones

0:01
Speaker 1: Wave.
0:09
Speaker 2: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the right time. A wave original.
0:13
Speaker 2: My name is Bomani Jones. Thanks for listening wherever you
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Speaker 2: rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only
0:22
Speaker 2: give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are
0:24
Speaker 2: a hater. It is Time Machine Tuesday. We got the
0:29
Speaker 2: NBA draft coming up. And so we will start here
0:32
Speaker 2: with talking about not the 1996 draft.
0:35
Speaker 1: We'll get to that.
0:36
Speaker 2: The 1986 draft. Talk about that with our good buddy.
0:41
Speaker 2: Check him out. Well, check out Kings and Paws. It
0:44
Speaker 2: is so great that I still keep this copy of
0:46
Speaker 2: Kings and Paws on my desk so I can always
0:48
Speaker 2: pull it up.
0:48
Speaker 3: Tell people to go check this out. Howard Bryant, what's
0:51
Speaker 3: going on, man?
0:52
Speaker 1: My man, how we doing?
0:54
Speaker 3: Hey, man, we are good. 1986 draft.
0:57
Speaker 2: I feel like before you can talk about the 86 draft,
0:59
Speaker 2: you kind of got to walk up to it.
1:02
Speaker 3: And I think part of the walk up to it
1:04
Speaker 3: that is interesting.
1:05
Speaker 2: Is Every draft before, like, nice long run of drafts
1:10
Speaker 2: prior to that. 1978, it takes a year delay, but
1:12
Speaker 2: you get Larry Bird out of the 78 draft. You
1:14
Speaker 2: get Magic Johnson out of the 79 draft. You get
1:17
Speaker 2: Kevin McHale out of the 1980 draft. You get Isaiah
1:20
Speaker 2: Thomas in 81. You get James Worthy, Dominique Wilkins in 82.
1:23
Speaker 2: You get Ralph Sampson, Clyde Drexler in 83. You get Olajuwon, Barkley,
1:27
Speaker 2: Jordan in 84. 85, I think you wind up getting
1:31
Speaker 2: Karl Malone, but you also got Patrick Ewing at the
1:33
Speaker 2: top of the draft. 1986 comes, and not until the
1:38
Speaker 2: year 2000 is it even possible that we could have
1:40
Speaker 2: a worse draft in the end than we had with 86.
1:44
Speaker 3: But 86 is nestled in the middle of the NBA renaissance, right? Obviously,
1:50
Speaker 3: we'll get to all the cocaine. Everybody knows that we're
1:53
Speaker 3: here because of the cocaine.
1:54
Speaker 2: But the early 80s, coming out of the ABA and
1:59
Speaker 2: the perception that this was this cocaine league and everything
2:01
Speaker 2: else that was around it, The bird magic thing, also
2:06
Speaker 2: with a dollop of the Sixers being as good as
2:10
Speaker 2: they were in that time, everything is looking good for
2:14
Speaker 2: the NBA in the early 1980s.
2:17
Speaker 1: You had everything you wanted. And believe me, there are
2:22
Speaker 1: a lot of places to go. But when you get
2:24
Speaker 1: to the 86 draft, there's a couple of other things
2:26
Speaker 1: to remember. Number one, and it's fascinating today from a
2:29
Speaker 1: 2026 standpoint, which is why I'm bringing this up. is
2:32
Speaker 1: that you're only two years removed from the draft being
2:36
Speaker 1: 10 rounds. It was 10 rounds in 1984. They moved
2:42
Speaker 1: the draft down to seven rounds. Can you still imagine
2:45
Speaker 1: seven rounds of an NBA? There's only 12 guys on
2:49
Speaker 1: the roster.
2:50
Speaker 3: Well, it allows for a lot of people to say, well,
2:52
Speaker 3: you know, I got drafted.
2:53
Speaker 1: By the Saints. I got drafted, exactly. You can tell
2:54
Speaker 1: a lot of guys. And it was interesting looking at
2:56
Speaker 1: that because that was, to me, that was the– you know,
2:59
Speaker 1: that was the high point. I mean, I was, you know,
3:01
Speaker 1: graduating from high school that year and I was all
3:05
Speaker 1: the way into the, you know, basketball was the center
3:08
Speaker 1: of the universe. And your very good friend, Ralph Sampson
3:11
Speaker 1: had just been deposed by the Boston Celtics in the finals.
3:16
Speaker 1: I was just trying to protect my family from Jerry Seasting. Um,
3:20
Speaker 1: so I had a knife. Exactly. And also let us
3:24
Speaker 1: not forget that you come out of that, uh, you
3:27
Speaker 1: come out of that year And there was an anger
3:31
Speaker 1: toward everybody in the NBA when you're talking about the
3:34
Speaker 1: rich getting richer. I mean, it was a fantastic half decade.
3:38
Speaker 1: The Celtics were back. The Lakers are back. The Sixers
3:42
Speaker 1: are back. And the Celtics and the Sixers get one
3:46
Speaker 1: and two in the draft. And one of the questions
3:49
Speaker 1: that people had been asking before that at that time
3:52
Speaker 1: was the Lakers win the championship and they get James Worthy.
3:55
Speaker 1: So it was this rich getting richer thing. And 86
3:59
Speaker 1: was just a reload. It was like, so the Celtics
4:02
Speaker 1: are either going to get, you know, Len bias or,
4:06
Speaker 1: you know, they were going to get somebody good. And
4:09
Speaker 1: so for my orientation of that draft at, you know,
4:14
Speaker 1: in real time at that time, this was just, this
4:17
Speaker 1: was going to be more of the same, you know,
4:20
Speaker 1: this was going to be moving into the next half
4:25
Speaker 1: decade or the next decade of of like sort of these,
4:28
Speaker 1: this big three dominance. One, you know, one rival had
4:31
Speaker 1: the top pick. The other one had the other pick.
4:33
Speaker 1: You knew the Lakers had just lost to Houston inexplicably.
4:36
Speaker 1: So you knew they were going to come back and
4:37
Speaker 1: it just looked very, very top heavy. And instead that
4:40
Speaker 1: draft turned, you know, it took, how shall we say,
4:43
Speaker 1: history took a turn. Yeah.
4:45
Speaker 2: No, it's actually, I hadn't really thought about this until
4:47
Speaker 2: you said it, but it is kind of wild that
4:50
Speaker 2: in 79, the good, already good Lakers got Magic Johnson.
4:55
Speaker 1: That's right. Right.
4:56
Speaker 3: In 1980, the already good Celtics.
5:00
Speaker 1: Celtics were already good.
5:01
Speaker 3: Say it again.
5:02
Speaker 1: Celtics were terrible.
5:04
Speaker 3: Well, no, but 79-80, they won 60-something.
5:06
Speaker 1: Games, right? They won 61 games, yes. Right, right.
5:08
Speaker 3: So I'm saying, but in 1980, they are good now.
5:11
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.
5:12
Speaker 3: And they get Kevin McHale and Robert Parrish, right?
5:15
Speaker 1: That's right.
5:16
Speaker 2: You get to 82. The already good Lakers get James Worthy, right?
5:21
Speaker 1: Yeah.
5:22
Speaker 3: Even if you get to 84.
5:23
Speaker 2: And think about it in the context of the Rockets,
5:25
Speaker 2: where the Rockets were not good, but you just got
5:27
Speaker 2: Ralph Sampson, generational prospect from one draft, and you get
5:30
Speaker 2: the next generational prospect coming to you in 84.
5:33
Speaker 3: Like, teams were stacking up.
5:35
Speaker 1: Can you imagine social media in 1986 when you go,
5:39
Speaker 1: when you're the Houston Rockets and you go back-to-back number
5:42
Speaker 1: one picks? Yes. And then you start the draft lottery
5:45
Speaker 1: for the first year in 1985, and gee.
5:50
Speaker 1: The number one market in the country is Patrick Ewan.
5:54
Speaker 1: I mean, people want to talk about gambling conspiracies now.
5:56
Speaker 1: Y'all ain't even hiding this about who you want to
6:01
Speaker 1: be good.
6:02
Speaker 2: But what's so funny about that is, if I'm not mistaken,
6:05
Speaker 2: it was Red Auerbach who pulled the envelopes.
6:08
Speaker 3: And if there's anything we.
6:09
Speaker 2: Don't think Red Auerbach is doing is throwing a freebie
6:11
Speaker 2: to the Knicks.
6:12
Speaker 3: However, it's the NBA. So there's always something for you
6:15
Speaker 3: to think or assume.
6:17
Speaker 1: That's right. And also, and let's not forget, that year,
6:19
Speaker 1: that was the very year that the Knicks tried to
6:22
Speaker 1: poach the Celtics. They tried to sign Kevin McHale to
6:24
Speaker 1: an offer sheet. And so, you know, they were a
6:29
Speaker 1: year removed from playing the Celtics in the second round,
6:33
Speaker 1: the great Bernard King series, when Cedric Maxwell said, we're
6:36
Speaker 1: going to stop the bitch, right? You know, that he
6:39
Speaker 1: has scored his last 40 points. I mean, it was
6:42
Speaker 1: It was a very, very top-heavy time. And you can
6:44
Speaker 1: tell if you're thinking about it from a conspiracy standpoint. Yeah,
6:47
Speaker 1: Bird and Magic have brought this game back. We are
6:49
Speaker 1: no longer on tape delay. People like us. Madison Avenue
6:54
Speaker 1: likes us. This is lucky. Let's take advantage of it
6:57
Speaker 1: right now.
6:59
Speaker 3: How breakneck was the turn? And I ask that because.
7:02
Speaker 2: 1979, 1980, they were still on tape delay when Magic
7:07
Speaker 2: put up the.
7:08
Speaker 3: They were on tape delay in 82.
7:11
Speaker 1: Right.
7:11
Speaker 2: Because it feels, at least from a distance, like Magic
7:15
Speaker 2: and Bird showed up and then boom, immediately everything was there.
7:18
Speaker 1: It took until 84. 84 was the first one. 84
7:21
Speaker 1: is the Super Bowl X of the NBA Finals, where
7:24
Speaker 1: it was like, oh, we are now something else. That
7:28
Speaker 1: Dallas Cowboys-Pittsburgh Steelers Super Bowl... changed what the Super Bowl was.
7:32
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, no more high school marching bands anymore, right?
7:36
Speaker 1: We are something else. And that 84 finals, because it
7:40
Speaker 1: was Boston, because it was LA, because it was Magic,
7:43
Speaker 1: because it was Burt, all the perfect storm had aligned.
7:47
Speaker 1: And Michael was coming and everybody knew Michael was on
7:52
Speaker 1: his way, even though nobody knew how good he was
7:54
Speaker 1: actually going to be at that time. But After that
7:59
Speaker 1: 84 finals, they all recognized that we got something special.
8:06
Speaker 1: And when you think about it from a PTSD standpoint,
8:10
Speaker 1: you can feel all of that time period today. You
8:14
Speaker 1: can feel it in terms of flagrant fouls when they're
8:18
Speaker 1: looking at the monitor and everything. When you look at
8:22
Speaker 1: the malice at the palace, when you look at everything,
8:25
Speaker 1: they're like, We're not going back, right? We're not going back.
8:33
Speaker 1: We're talking dress codes and everything else. That 84 season
8:38
Speaker 1: was the one where you were like, we have finally
8:42
Speaker 1: become the league that we thought we could be. And
8:46
Speaker 1: this goes back to 1947, 1946, because the NBA was
8:51
Speaker 1: far behind baseball and football and sometimes hockey. Um, the, the,
8:56
Speaker 1: the league was going through labor wars in the seventies,
8:59
Speaker 1: you know, battling with the ABA. And then when the
9:02
Speaker 1: ABA comes in, there was this other group of people
9:04
Speaker 1: who were like, yeah, but you know, you can take
9:06
Speaker 1: all that street ball shit. We don't need that. You know,
9:08
Speaker 1: the game was too black. Um, and then you, you know,
9:11
Speaker 1: you start adding the drugs and stuff to it as well. And,
9:15
Speaker 1: you know, there had been, and it's wild to talk
9:18
Speaker 1: about it now, but there had been serious talk in
9:21
Speaker 1: my childhood. You know, go call Bob, call Bob Ryan.
9:25
Speaker 1: I'll tell you all about this. You know, but there
9:27
Speaker 1: was serious talk all the way up and through high school.
9:30
Speaker 1: You know, is the NBA going to survive? You know,
9:34
Speaker 1: like this was like this league's not going to make it.
9:37
Speaker 1: And we've never seen a league fold.
9:39
Speaker 3: Right.
9:40
Speaker 1: I mean, so that's where I mean, it's unthinkable today
9:45
Speaker 1: to think that the league is going to fold. I mean,
9:47
Speaker 1: you barely have teams moving anymore. Like back then, you know,
9:52
Speaker 1: Buffalo moved to San Diego and then they moved to
9:55
Speaker 1: Los Angeles to be the Clippers. You know, Kansas City
9:58
Speaker 1: had already moved out. to Sacramento. So you had a
10:01
Speaker 1: whole bunch of sort of franchise instability as well. So
10:07
Speaker 1: that period was, you know, like people talk about, oh,
10:11
Speaker 1: they talk about ratings now. But back then they were
10:13
Speaker 1: talking about this league might not make it at all. Right.
10:17
Speaker 2: Think about how down bad you got to be to
10:18
Speaker 2: be like, we're going to move to Sacramento.
10:22
Speaker 3: That's where we're going.
10:24
Speaker 1: That's where we're going.
10:25
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're going to... We'll show you.
10:29
Speaker 1: We'll move to Sacramento.
10:30
Speaker 3: We're going to hitch our wagons and go even farther west,
10:33
Speaker 3: young man.
10:34
Speaker 1: That's right. That's right. And then on top of that,
10:36
Speaker 1: you look at some of the other franchises, and it
10:39
Speaker 1: just didn't seem like... There was a great, I mean,
10:45
Speaker 1: even at the time, your greatest player pre-Magic was Kareem,
10:51
Speaker 1: by far. And nobody liked him.
10:54
Speaker 3: Right.
10:55
Speaker 1: You know? And a lot of reasons was because he
10:56
Speaker 1: was too black, but also he was aloof. And he's
10:58
Speaker 1: in Los Angeles.
11:00
Speaker 3: Right.
11:00
Speaker 1: Which is now something that we would say, oh, of
11:02
Speaker 1: course you're going to Los Angeles. Didn't matter. You know?
11:07
Speaker 3: Right.
11:08
Speaker 2: And so in 84, it's interesting also because, I mean...
11:12
Speaker 2: The finals really kind of gave them everything they wanted
11:14
Speaker 2: in the sense that the white man did come out
11:17
Speaker 2: on top, right? Like whatever battle of morals and principles
11:22
Speaker 2: that you had at that point, not only did the
11:24
Speaker 2: white man come out on top, the white man came
11:26
Speaker 2: out on top.
11:26
Speaker 3: And the flashy black dude self-destructed.
11:29
Speaker 2: I can't imagine there was anything better for business for
11:31
Speaker 2: the NBA than that seven games of that series ending
11:36
Speaker 2: in that very particular way.
11:38
Speaker 1: In that very particular city. Yes. Um, which is really
11:43
Speaker 1: why we have all this, you know, it's fascinating to
11:47
Speaker 1: me how we, you know, we talk about these cities
11:48
Speaker 1: and we talk about these teams and then they, they,
11:51
Speaker 1: they fulfill the prophecy, you know, and that's part of
11:54
Speaker 1: kind of why we attach ourselves to sports so much,
11:57
Speaker 1: because it's like, it does represent us. It's like this guy,
12:01
Speaker 1: all kind of coincidence in some ways, but maybe not. Right.
12:04
Speaker 1: But then again, maybe not. And. And I remember that
12:08
Speaker 1: very well. I mean, I tell people this all the time.
12:11
Speaker 1: I was in the Celtic City doc on HBO. That's
12:15
Speaker 1: my favorite year as a 10th grader who was a
12:19
Speaker 1: huge Celtics fan because they had no business winning that series.
12:24
Speaker 1: I remember watching that game one. Watch the first quarter
12:27
Speaker 1: of game one of the NBA finals in 1984. I
12:30
Speaker 1: think the Lakers were up 32 to 12. And the
12:33
Speaker 1: way that they were, and you have to remember too,
12:34
Speaker 1: and this is wild, but you have to remember too,
12:36
Speaker 1: because this is a pre-cable. We never saw anybody else
12:39
Speaker 1: unless it was a Sunday, you know, CBS game, right?
12:42
Speaker 1: So I never, I saw the Lakers, what, twice that year?
12:45
Speaker 1: Maybe a few times, you know, in the, you know,
12:47
Speaker 1: the Sunday game against, you know, when they were running
12:49
Speaker 1: up on San Antonio or killing Seattle or somebody. But
12:53
Speaker 1: to see Magic run the floor in real time, I
12:57
Speaker 1: was like, there's no possible way we're going to beat
12:59
Speaker 1: these guys. I mean, this is, they're unbeatable. right i
13:04
Speaker 1: mean they're that good and then of course bird hits
13:06
Speaker 1: three to end the third quarter and suddenly you got
13:08
Speaker 1: a good game they still lose the game 115 109
13:11
Speaker 1: but you're looking at them and then gerald henderson makes
13:13
Speaker 1: the stealing game too you're like they should they should
13:15
Speaker 1: have got swept they then they lose the third game
13:18
Speaker 1: 137 to 104 they they got killed that whole series
13:24
Speaker 1: and then larry bird is like all right One of
13:27
Speaker 1: y'all punks need to take somebody out and then you
13:29
Speaker 1: get the Kurt Rampus clothesline. And then that whole series changed.
13:33
Speaker 1: And now all of a sudden, you know, it was like,
13:35
Speaker 1: you know, it was a lot like game three of
13:38
Speaker 1: the 2003 American League Championship Series. You know, once you
13:42
Speaker 1: start thinking Roger Clemens might throw the fastball at your forehead, yeah,
13:46
Speaker 1: a little more timid going to the basket and the
13:48
Speaker 1: whole thing changed, right? Yeah, you might not want to
13:50
Speaker 1: dive out over the plate anymore. And then that changed everything.
13:53
Speaker 1: And then that was when Pat Riley said, no rebound,
13:55
Speaker 1: no ring. And then you get that thing, and the
13:59
Speaker 1: bad boys come, and then everybody knows the rest of
14:01
Speaker 1: the history. And what's really funny about that, sorry, I
14:04
Speaker 1: know we're supposed to talk about the draft, but what's
14:05
Speaker 1: really funny about that moment was that today, everybody likes
14:10
Speaker 1: to have all kinds of nostalgia for, remember when the NBA,
14:13
Speaker 1: when men were men back in the 80s? Bullshit! At
14:16
Speaker 1: that time, that was one of the dirtiest plays, and
14:20
Speaker 1: McHale didn't even, that was a common foul!
14:23
Speaker 3: Yep.
14:24
Speaker 1: That was a common foul, and that... play made me
14:29
Speaker 1: have to rethink it was like oh wait a minute
14:31
Speaker 1: i remember telling isaiah this too and um i was
14:34
Speaker 1: like oh we were the bad guys you were son
14:39
Speaker 1: of bad boys the celtics started all this shit right
14:44
Speaker 1: oops right and and and it's fascinating because at that
14:50
Speaker 1: time because they were riding so high nothing happened. No,
14:58
Speaker 1: McHale should have been suspended, right? The whole series changes.
15:02
Speaker 3: I mean, Robert Parrish beat up Bill Lambert, and I
15:04
Speaker 3: think he only.
15:05
Speaker 1: Got a technical foul. But once again, there's a lot
15:11
Speaker 1: of nostalgia for that time period, but in that moment,
15:14
Speaker 1: nobody quite knew what had been created. Right.
15:20
Speaker 2: Now, we get to 86 and this is after each
15:23
Speaker 2: of the Lakers and the Celtics get another championship. And
15:26
Speaker 2: the Celtics had an argument at that time that they
15:29
Speaker 2: just trotted out the best team in the history of
15:31
Speaker 2: the NBA, right? Like the 86 Celtics are of legendary
15:34
Speaker 2: status up there, right? Like it's, it's the 72 Lakers.
15:38
Speaker 2: It's the 67 Sixers.
15:41
Speaker 3: Um, the 83 Sixers too.
15:44
Speaker 1: Yeah.
15:44
Speaker 2: Like this is the level of basketball that we're talking
15:46
Speaker 2: about here. They went 40 and one at home. Um,
15:49
Speaker 2: A lot of white boys, man. It was just kind
15:51
Speaker 2: of hard to avoid that reality, but they wouldn't, they wouldn't,
15:54
Speaker 2: they weren't out here doing no favors.
15:57
Speaker 1: Why you got to hit me where it hurts? Yeah, man.
15:59
Speaker 3: I'm just saying, but Hey man, it wasn't like no
16:01
Speaker 3: white boys is out there. Cause somebody was doing them
16:02
Speaker 3: a favor.
16:03
Speaker 1: Like actually they were doing them a favor. Why? Because
16:05
Speaker 1: everybody knew, right? I mean, everybody knows Boston and Boston.
16:09
Speaker 1: You couldn't, even if the Celtics won, like if they
16:14
Speaker 1: won 80 games, If that bench was not populated with
16:19
Speaker 1: white players, that team would have fans and everything.
16:21
Speaker 3: What do you think Greg Kite was doing there? Yeah, yeah.
16:25
Speaker 2: Now those guys, doing somebody a favor, but like, McHale, Bird,
16:29
Speaker 2: Danny Ainge, even if you got a healthy Bill Walton, like,
16:33
Speaker 2: Red was clearly like, if I think the white boy
16:36
Speaker 2: got something in him, I gotta at least give.
16:38
Speaker 3: Him a chance. I gotta at least see.
16:43
Speaker 1: Look, let's put it this way, okay? Just, you know, so...
16:47
Speaker 1: So your feedback is not inundated with, why do you
16:49
Speaker 1: guys always have to play the race card? The NBA
16:54
Speaker 1: at that time was 80% black. There were 14 players
16:59
Speaker 1: on a roster. The Celtics had 10 white players. That's
17:06
Speaker 1: really mathematically hard to do. It's hard to do. And
17:14
Speaker 1: everybody knew at that time that there were three cities
17:19
Speaker 1: that really, really knew that they were going to cater
17:21
Speaker 1: to white players. Boston, Utah, and Phoenix. Those were the
17:27
Speaker 1: cities where ownership knew that they had a racial dynamic
17:33
Speaker 1: that they had to factor into their roster construction. And
17:37
Speaker 1: it's also not a coincidence as well that when the
17:39
Speaker 1: Celtics had hit rock bottom You know, during 78, 79,
17:44
Speaker 1: it was also the years where they had the highest
17:45
Speaker 1: concentration of Black players in their history at that time.
17:50
Speaker 1: You know, and they still refer to those years as
17:52
Speaker 1: the Sidney Wicks, Curtis Rojas. Bob McAdoo was on one
17:54
Speaker 1: of those teams.
17:56
Speaker 3: Yes, he was. That was the Ed Whitson to the
17:59
Speaker 3: Yankees of the NBA, as I recall. Like, hey, hey, hey,
18:03
Speaker 3: Randy Johnson to the Yankees. Hey, this just ain't gonna work.
18:06
Speaker 1: This ain't gonna work, right? Exactly. And so... You know,
18:09
Speaker 1: at that time, you're really looking at, you know, you are,
18:15
Speaker 1: you do believe if you're the NBA, you're on top
18:18
Speaker 1: of the world. And that's why that 86 draft is
18:23
Speaker 1: so important, because it brought some things back to reality,
18:28
Speaker 1: but it also sounded the alarms for the NBA in
18:31
Speaker 1: terms of, we know underneath the Everything underneath the bird
18:38
Speaker 1: magic commercials, underneath all the rise in the ratings and
18:41
Speaker 1: everything else. We know that we cannot do anything that
18:44
Speaker 1: reminds people that of the idea that these that having
18:52
Speaker 1: black players are having majority black workforce is a negative.
18:57
Speaker 3: Yeah.
18:58
Speaker 2: And so we get to this 86 draft with the
19:00
Speaker 2: Celtics coming off this season. And the Celtics have the
19:04
Speaker 2: number two pick in the draft.
19:06
Speaker 3: I don't remember. What trade got them that pick? Do
19:08
Speaker 3: you remember?
19:09
Speaker 1: Of course I remember. The trade that got them that
19:11
Speaker 1: pick was Gerald Henderson, who stole the ball in game
19:14
Speaker 1: two against James Worthy. He had a contract dispute, and
19:17
Speaker 1: they traded him to Seattle for Seattle's number one pick. Yes.
19:22
Speaker 1: Gerald Henderson went for a first-round pick, which ended up
19:24
Speaker 1: being Len Bias.
19:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, which turned out to be the number two pick
19:26
Speaker 2: because this is also the lottery of flat odds.
19:29
Speaker 3: One envelope for everybody.
19:30
Speaker 1: That's right.
19:31
Speaker 2: Cleveland has the number one pick in one day. The
19:34
Speaker 2: Sixers got rid of Moses Malone and the number one pick.
19:38
Speaker 2: Don't remember exactly what the circumstances were on both, but
19:41
Speaker 2: they were in a position where like maybe we could
19:43
Speaker 2: take one more swing at this.
19:44
Speaker 3: And they were like, yeah, or maybe we won't. Right.
19:47
Speaker 2: Maybe we'll just go about this in a different way.
19:50
Speaker 2: So Cleveland sitting at number one, the Celtics are at
19:54
Speaker 2: number two. And the best thing that ever happened to
19:57
Speaker 2: the Cleveland Cavaliers at that point was that there was
20:00
Speaker 2: a very clear paradigm in that era that said that
20:04
Speaker 2: if there is an excellent seven footer. And in this case,
20:08
Speaker 2: one who played four years of college basketball was only
20:10
Speaker 2: 20 years old and played for Dean Smith. That is
20:14
Speaker 2: going to be the number one overall pick in the draft.
20:16
Speaker 2: And so they, and so they took Brad Doherty who
20:19
Speaker 2: wore number 43, because that was Richard Petty's number, which
20:23
Speaker 2: is something that I don't think ever happened in the
20:24
Speaker 2: NBA before, or was ever going to happen in the
20:28
Speaker 2: NBA again.
20:30
Speaker 3: And Brad Doherty, was a very good basketball player.
20:34
Speaker 2: If Brad Doherty doesn't get hurt, Brad Doherty probably winds
20:37
Speaker 2: up in the Hall of Fame by the end. He
20:40
Speaker 2: was not in the Ewing, Olajuwon, Robinson tier of player,
20:44
Speaker 2: but he was a multiple-time All-Star in the Cleveland teams
20:47
Speaker 2: that he played on, were very, very good, and he
20:51
Speaker 2: was a square.
20:52
Speaker 3: There is no other way to put this about Brad Doherty.
20:55
Speaker 3: He is a square. He wound up running NASCAR teams.
20:57
Speaker 1: He was a Tim Duncan before Duncan.
20:59
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, but it like, But Duncan's more quiet. Yeah,
21:03
Speaker 3: Duncan was quiet and kind of had this like really
21:06
Speaker 3: snappy sense of humor.
21:07
Speaker 1: Yes.
21:08
Speaker 2: If you like get around to it, right? Like Tim
21:10
Speaker 2: Duncan has dreadlocks right now. Brad Doherty doesn't.
21:14
Speaker 1: Does not.
21:15
Speaker 2: He was just a big old goofy boy from Black Mountain,
21:19
Speaker 2: North Carolina, had the biggest accent of anybody in the league.
21:22
Speaker 2: And everything else about this draft pretty much was about chaos.
21:27
Speaker 2: The Cavs took the biggest square in the draft, and
21:30
Speaker 2: that's why they actually got something out.
21:32
Speaker 3: Of their pick.
21:34
Speaker 1: Well, and it's also a reminder that even 40 years later,
21:38
Speaker 1: the Philadelphia 76ers cannot get a top three pick right.
21:43
Speaker 3: Right?
21:43
Speaker 1: I mean, they had the number one pick.
21:47
Speaker 3: Yeah.
21:48
Speaker 1: Right? And if you go back and hop on YouTube
21:50
Speaker 1: and look at the draft lottery that day, Red Auerbach
21:55
Speaker 1: is clapping his hands when he didn't get the number
21:57
Speaker 1: one pick. Like, I got you. I know something you
22:00
Speaker 1: don't know. I got you. Right? Which was, of course,
22:03
Speaker 1: you know, just more gamesmanship, but it was just Red
22:05
Speaker 1: being Red. But the 76ers end up trading that pick.
22:10
Speaker 1: They end up with Roy Hinson. From Rutgers. And I
22:15
Speaker 1: think that, can you imagine Charles Barkley and Dr. J
22:20
Speaker 1: with two years left and Brad Doherty? Philly's probably a
22:24
Speaker 1: pretty good team for the next couple of years. Barkley, Doherty,
22:27
Speaker 1: front line is pretty damn good. Yeah. And instead they
22:33
Speaker 1: trade Moses for Jeff Ruland.
22:36
Speaker 3: Say that again.
22:38
Speaker 1: Traded Moses Malone for Jeff Ruland.
22:42
Speaker 3: A still pretty good Moses Malone.
22:45
Speaker 1: Yeah. And a pretty decent, I mean, Jeff, Jeff ruling
22:47
Speaker 1: at that time was a decent player.
22:54
Speaker 3: Yes.
22:55
Speaker 1: But that deal was like, what are you doing? I mean,
22:59
Speaker 1: they believe Philly, Philly had believed. And once again, and
23:02
Speaker 1: this is why it's so fascinating when everybody likes to
23:05
Speaker 1: talk about sports as a meritocracy and this and that
23:07
Speaker 1: Philly is another one of those cities where it's like, okay,
23:09
Speaker 1: we don't have to have a white boy in here.
23:12
Speaker 1: but it might help. I mean, they, they saw the,
23:15
Speaker 1: you know, Julius was done. He had two years left, 86,
23:18
Speaker 1: he was done by 87 and he retired and they,
23:21
Speaker 1: you know, but it was Barkley city. You know, I was,
23:24
Speaker 1: that was my, you know, first year in Philly. I
23:26
Speaker 1: went to college at Temple and that there was no
23:32
Speaker 1: other team that I could think of. And I hadn't been,
23:35
Speaker 1: I hadn't been anywhere when I was a high school kid.
23:37
Speaker 1: I hadn't been anywhere, but no team said, black part
23:43
Speaker 1: of our city like the 76ers. You know, like the
23:47
Speaker 1: Julius Irving 76ers were an experience. You know what I mean?
23:52
Speaker 1: And then to follow up that experience with Barkley. I mean,
23:58
Speaker 1: and then the very next year, I mean, two years later, right?
24:01
Speaker 1: You got Chuck D putting Barkley in his lyrics.
24:05
Speaker 3: Like everybody- I'll throw it down your throat like Barkley.
24:08
Speaker 1: I mean, that was like the experience. And so, You know,
24:13
Speaker 1: on the one hand, Moses was never as great as
24:16
Speaker 1: he had been previously. But on the other, you traded
24:19
Speaker 1: Moses Malone for Jeff Rulon.
24:21
Speaker 3: Yeah, you did that.
24:22
Speaker 1: You did that.
24:23
Speaker 3: And by the way, you could have replaced him, but
24:25
Speaker 3: you didn't do that.
24:26
Speaker 1: Right.
24:26
Speaker 2: Like that's that's how it shook out. But shout out
24:28
Speaker 2: to you, Cleveland Cavaliers. They wound up. They didn't have
24:31
Speaker 2: the first pick in the second round. The Mavericks did.
24:34
Speaker 2: But they the Mavericks made that pick for them and
24:36
Speaker 2: they made a trade. They got probably the two biggest
24:38
Speaker 2: squares you could get in that draft, Brad Doherty and
24:40
Speaker 2: Mark Price.
24:41
Speaker 3: And I believe both of their numbers are hanging in
24:43
Speaker 3: the rafters.
24:44
Speaker 2: Sometimes what you need is a square because after that, buddy,
24:48
Speaker 2: everything gets a little bit wonky. And we will talk
24:51
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26:11
Speaker 2: All right, we are back with Howard Bryant talking about
26:18
Speaker 2: the 1986 NBA draft. It's almost cliche to talk about
26:22
Speaker 2: what happened with Lynn Baez. It is well-worn territory, but
26:26
Speaker 2: I'll say it again. My daddy was adamant well into
26:29
Speaker 2: the 21st century that If the Celtics had taken Len Bias,
26:32
Speaker 2: they would still be kicking butt to this day. Like,
26:37
Speaker 2: the Len Bias clips of him at Maryland, that's a
26:40
Speaker 2: dude that looks like he came from the future.
26:42
Speaker 1: That's right. He's a man. I mean, I still say
26:45
Speaker 1: two things on this. I'll be very quick about it.
26:47
Speaker 1: Number one, the first time I interviewed LeBron James was
26:50
Speaker 1: in Boston, back when the NBA Summer League was in Boston,
26:53
Speaker 1: before they went to Vegas. And I remember looking at
26:57
Speaker 1: LeBron James, and I just remember staring and like, You know,
27:01
Speaker 1: when you're an average-sized human, looking at basketball players is
27:08
Speaker 1: a humbling experience. And I'm looking at him going, no
27:11
Speaker 1: way is he 18 years old. There's just no way
27:13
Speaker 1: is he 18 years old. And that's how people looked
27:16
Speaker 1: at Len Bias. There were a couple of guys who
27:19
Speaker 1: would come later or in that same range. Like Walter Berry,
27:22
Speaker 1: people looked at him like the way they looked at Bias,
27:24
Speaker 1: that men against boys thing. J.R. Reid as well. I
27:28
Speaker 1: remember at that same time, a few years later, back
27:30
Speaker 1: in the 90s, they looked at him, same thing, that
27:31
Speaker 1: men against boys. And obviously Zion a little bit later.
27:35
Speaker 1: But Len Bias was one of the first guys where
27:37
Speaker 1: you were like, wow. Right? I mean... And at that
27:44
Speaker 1: time as well, let's also not forget that Jordan had
27:48
Speaker 1: just scored 63 points in a playoff game. Yeah. You know, so...
27:53
Speaker 1: The whole thing, when people were talking about bias, they
27:57
Speaker 1: were comparing him in a lot of ways to his
28:01
Speaker 1: ACC rival who had just scored 63 points in a
28:04
Speaker 1: playoff game. It was like, we got our guy now, right?
28:08
Speaker 1: So I just graduated high school. I was working produce,
28:15
Speaker 1: unloading vegetables at Star Market. otherwise known as Star Market,
28:20
Speaker 1: if you're not from Boston, the supermarket. And I got
28:25
Speaker 1: a phone call. We didn't have cell phones back then.
28:27
Speaker 1: Over the intercom, phone call for Howard Bryant. I'm like
28:30
Speaker 1: at the supermarket, right? And it's my boy, my best
28:32
Speaker 1: friend calls me and he's crying. He's dead, he's dead,
28:36
Speaker 1: he's dead. I'm like, who's dead? I think he was
28:38
Speaker 1: talking about his brother.
28:39
Speaker 3: I was like, what, who, what, what?
28:42
Speaker 1: Len Pius. You know, I mean, it was like, still
28:49
Speaker 1: don't have any words for that for that very moment
28:52
Speaker 1: remember it like it was yesterday and and then all
28:56
Speaker 1: the stuff that came later it was just staggering you
29:00
Speaker 1: know sports illustrated death of a dream and the whole
29:02
Speaker 1: thing and it's like it's it all it all went
29:08
Speaker 1: sideways i mean in a very very tragic tragic way
29:12
Speaker 1: but also um that draft was you know you realize
29:18
Speaker 1: that that wasn't you know, only the tragedy of the draft.
29:22
Speaker 1: It was just the beginning.
29:23
Speaker 3: Right, right. And look, the thing with Lin, well, he
29:26
Speaker 3: could hoop.
29:27
Speaker 2: Like, it was not just simply this spectacular athlete, while
29:31
Speaker 2: that was also a part of it.
29:32
Speaker 3: He also had game.
29:34
Speaker 2: Michael Jordan's last year in college is 1984. Lin Bias
29:38
Speaker 2: was the 1984 ACC tournament MVP. He's ACC player of
29:43
Speaker 2: the year the next two years.
29:46
Speaker 1: He was.
29:47
Speaker 2: the clips of watching Lynn bias, that game at the
29:49
Speaker 2: Dean dome, basically when it wasn't the first game at
29:51
Speaker 2: the Dean dome, but it was the first year where
29:53
Speaker 2: he makes that, makes that, makes that bucket, steals the
29:56
Speaker 2: pads and reverse dunks it.
29:57
Speaker 3: And it was like, he just levitated off the ground
29:59
Speaker 3: to go do this. It's like, what was happening here?
30:02
Speaker 2: And he was going to play for the Celtics who
30:04
Speaker 2: already have literally the best frontline in the history of
30:07
Speaker 2: the NBA.
30:08
Speaker 1: And what was wild about that too, Bo was that,
30:10
Speaker 1: you know, what was exciting to me about that was that,
30:14
Speaker 1: and once again, you talk about the, The style of
30:17
Speaker 1: the day. You're still only 10 years removed from the
30:21
Speaker 1: ABA-NBA merger. And the stereotypes and the racism that comes
30:27
Speaker 1: with that, which those dudes played streetball. We play basketball
30:31
Speaker 1: the right way. That Dr. Jack Portland, we pass the ball,
30:35
Speaker 1: all of it. We play the game the right way.
30:37
Speaker 1: The Celtics were extremely proud of the fact that they
30:40
Speaker 1: had never had an NBA scoring champ. Why? Because we
30:46
Speaker 1: share the ball. We're not selfish. We don't want an
30:49
Speaker 1: NBA scoring champ. All of our guys are fundamentally sound,
30:53
Speaker 1: which was code for, you know, you can have all
30:56
Speaker 1: the flashy black guys and we'll beat them, you know,
31:00
Speaker 1: with our white intellect, right? That was the thing underneath it.
31:04
Speaker 1: And one of the reasons why we in the black
31:05
Speaker 1: community love the Celtics so much was because we felt
31:08
Speaker 1: we had to protect Jojo White and Cedric Maxwell and
31:11
Speaker 1: Robert Parrish from that bullshit, right? Because that's what you
31:14
Speaker 1: were living with. But then we were going to get
31:19
Speaker 1: an athlete? Yes. The Celtics? We were going to get,
31:23
Speaker 1: you know, brothers were like.
31:26
Speaker 1: We can actually be Celtics fans like out loud now.
31:29
Speaker 3: We're going to get an athlete.
31:31
Speaker 1: We're going to get somebody who actually like leaves the floor.
31:34
Speaker 3: Yeah.
31:35
Speaker 2: Well, the other thing about Red Auerbach, you have to remember,
31:38
Speaker 2: he had the teams with all the white boys in
31:40
Speaker 2: the eighties, but he had the teams with all the
31:41
Speaker 2: black dudes in the sixties. He was a valuable man
31:44
Speaker 2: when it came to these things. He wasn't, he wasn't
31:46
Speaker 2: going to be the guy like this. Was it like
31:49
Speaker 2: late aughts Mike Krzyzewski where you're like, dude, you don't
31:52
Speaker 2: even want that guy.
31:53
Speaker 1: Are you serious?
31:54
Speaker 3: No, no, no. Red Auerbach's looking at Len Bias and hell,
31:56
Speaker 3: Shesky probably would too.
31:57
Speaker 1: He tried to get Ralph Sampson, which I used to
32:00
Speaker 1: laugh at.
32:00
Speaker 3: Yeah, come on down.
32:01
Speaker 1: Right here.
32:01
Speaker 3: We got a place for you, buddy.
32:03
Speaker 2: You may have to come off the bench for a
32:05
Speaker 2: year or two, but we got something for you.
32:07
Speaker 1: Although we do know that 50-50 or even close, he
32:12
Speaker 1: was taking a white boy. Yeah. He took Michael Smith
32:15
Speaker 1: over Kobe Bryant.
32:17
Speaker 3: Michaels, that was a different draft, right?
32:19
Speaker 1: No, no. He took Michael Smith over, I think, was
32:21
Speaker 1: it Eddie Jones? Eddie Jones seems a little bit more likely. Yeah,
32:24
Speaker 1: it was Eddie Jones. He took Eric Montross.
32:30
Speaker 3: He did take Eric Montross.
32:32
Speaker 2: But I felt like he took Eric Montross very similar
32:34
Speaker 2: to how Eric Montross wilds out at Carolina.
32:37
Speaker 3: Because one thing Gut and D.
32:38
Speaker 2: Smith were doing, hey, we also have to have a
32:41
Speaker 2: couple of white guys on this team.
32:42
Speaker 3: And it helps if they're seven feet tall.
32:44
Speaker 1: Exactly. That's right.
32:46
Speaker 3: But we... The bias... I mean, look. Bias dying.
32:52
Speaker 2: obviously literally changed the world, right? And it's sad because
32:55
Speaker 2: the legacy of Lynn Bias wound up getting a lot
32:58
Speaker 2: of black people thrown in jail. Not like it was
33:00
Speaker 2: Lynn Bias' fault, not like it was his idea, but
33:03
Speaker 2: that was the end result. The death of Lynn Bias
33:06
Speaker 2: became an excuse for a lot of people to do
33:08
Speaker 2: a lot of things that they probably wanted to do
33:12
Speaker 2: already and was one of the first cases that I
33:14
Speaker 2: could think of. And it's the same thing going on
33:16
Speaker 2: with this Matthew Perry case. And it's something that really
33:18
Speaker 2: kind of gets on my nerves a little bit. which
33:20
Speaker 2: is whenever a famous person, Phyllis Seymour Hoffman, whenever a
33:23
Speaker 2: famous person dies of using drugs, you got to go
33:25
Speaker 2: find somebody to blame.
33:27
Speaker 1: Who sold you these drugs and you're going to put
33:29
Speaker 1: them in jail?
33:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, or some other junkie to go do that, or
33:31
Speaker 2: like Tyler Skaggs, the thing with the angels.
33:35
Speaker 3: With the angels. I understand what you're doing here, but
33:38
Speaker 3: come on, man, are you serious?
33:40
Speaker 1: Are you serious? And also, let's not forget that the
33:42
Speaker 1: piece of that too, when it came to the drugs
33:46
Speaker 1: with bias, was also the selling of, That three strikes
33:51
Speaker 1: and the war on drugs and all this stuff that
33:54
Speaker 1: we're doing it for you. Like, and that you in
33:58
Speaker 1: the black community, you're asking for this. We're doing this
34:02
Speaker 1: as a benefit. We're not doing this as a punishment.
34:03
Speaker 1: We're doing it to protect your kids. Right. And you
34:08
Speaker 1: did anything but protect our kids. Like the, all of
34:11
Speaker 1: that stuff. I mean, you destroyed our kids and their kids. Right.
34:17
Speaker 3: Right.
34:18
Speaker 1: So, but that is all happening. And when you think
34:21
Speaker 1: about that draft, I mean, like I said, we focus
34:23
Speaker 1: on bias, but number two pick bias, dies of a
34:27
Speaker 1: drug overdose. Number three, Chris Washburn. Yep. Cocaine suspension. Number six,
34:33
Speaker 1: William Bedford.
34:34
Speaker 3: Yep.
34:34
Speaker 1: Drug suspension. He's in a championship team with the Pistons. Yep.
34:38
Speaker 1: Number seven, Roy Tarpley, banned from the NBA.
34:41
Speaker 3: Okay. Yeah, and he was cold.
34:43
Speaker 1: And I was going to say, and Roy Tarpley. We
34:46
Speaker 1: don't talk about, everyone's like, oh, well, the Dallas Mavericks
34:49
Speaker 1: didn't get to the NBA Finals until, you know, 2006.
34:51
Speaker 1: Those mid-' 80s Dallas Mavericks teams were right there with the Lakers.
34:58
Speaker 1: They were pretty damn close. And Derek Harper dribbling out
35:00
Speaker 1: the ball. They had a shot, man. And Roy Tarpley
35:07
Speaker 1: was the center. When he was on that team, when
35:10
Speaker 1: he was playing, they were great. 13, Pearl Washington, banned
35:17
Speaker 1: from the NBA drugs. 22, Scott Skiles, played a bunch
35:21
Speaker 1: of years, coached the whole thing, but he had a
35:23
Speaker 1: cocaine thing in college. He did.
35:27
Speaker 3: That guy is a story.
35:30
Speaker 1: He's his own documentary.
35:32
Speaker 3: Scott Skiles is like, there's a Jason Williams element to
35:38
Speaker 3: Scott Skiles, but Jason Williams, Jason Williams didn't get in
35:42
Speaker 3: nearly as much trouble as Scott Skiles did. Jason Williams
35:45
Speaker 3: just smoking dope, but not like dope dope, just like weed.
35:49
Speaker 1: That's just weed. Six of the first 22 picks, five
35:54
Speaker 1: of the first 13 picks in that draft were associated
35:59
Speaker 1: or suspended, banned from the league, or died because of drugs. Yeah.
36:07
Speaker 3: And this is when the NBA starts doing things.
36:09
Speaker 1: And the NBA starts doing things. And also, let's also
36:12
Speaker 1: not forget that Chris Washburn is in Golden State. And
36:16
Speaker 1: Golden State is having its own problems. Because they had,
36:22
Speaker 1: you know, the nickname, because there were so many drugs
36:24
Speaker 1: going through there, they used to refer to Oakland as Cokeland. And,
36:30
Speaker 1: you know, Bernard King had his drug issues when he
36:33
Speaker 1: was in Golden State. And so... you know, then he
36:37
Speaker 1: goes to the Knicks, obviously, but, and, you know, becomes a,
36:39
Speaker 1: you know, the great hall of famer that he is.
36:41
Speaker 1: But at that time, you know, the Warriors had a
36:44
Speaker 1: reputation of being, you know, a place where drugs were
36:48
Speaker 1: running rampant. And also let's not forget 1986, while that's
36:52
Speaker 1: going on, you're a year removed from the Kansas city,
36:55
Speaker 1: Pittsburgh drug trials and baseball. And so the eighties, it just,
37:02
Speaker 1: I feel like going back and like watching wall street
37:04
Speaker 1: or something, right. You know, or watching Robocop where drugs
37:10
Speaker 1: are like everywhere in the 80s.
37:12
Speaker 3: Well, hold on.
37:13
Speaker 2: Two years ahead of the Edmonton Oilers cocaine scam.
37:17
Speaker 1: That's right. Then the Oilers too. That's right.
37:19
Speaker 3: Ask me who went to jail for that.
37:22
Speaker 1: Who went to jail for that?
37:23
Speaker 3: Grant Fuhrer.
37:24
Speaker 1: That's right.
37:25
Speaker 3: The black guy.
37:26
Speaker 1: The black goalie.
37:30
Speaker 3: Ain't nobody ever circled the wagons to be like, yeah,
37:32
Speaker 3: but not him. Not him.
37:33
Speaker 1: Don't know him.
37:35
Speaker 3: Now that guy, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
37:37
Speaker 3: Everybody was like, hey, maybe me.
37:40
Speaker 1: Him?
37:42
Speaker 3: Absolutely not. But hey, the cocaine 80s were wild.
37:46
Speaker 2: And then this draft, even the guy's who weren't cocaine cases.
37:52
Speaker 3: It didn't go right for anybody, it feels like. Doherty
37:56
Speaker 3: wound up having the bad back.
37:58
Speaker 1: He's back into his career.
38:00
Speaker 2: Ron Harper tore up his knee. John Hotplate Williams couldn't
38:03
Speaker 2: stop eating. Dale Curry, you know, he had a decent career, right?
38:09
Speaker 2: He's the one who played forever. You know who played
38:11
Speaker 2: the most games out of anybody in this draft.
38:13
Speaker 3: By the way?
38:14
Speaker 1: Rodman?
38:15
Speaker 3: Johnny Newman.
38:16
Speaker 1: Jenny newman yes jenny richmond like 16 years.
38:20
Speaker 2: Yes johnny newman played the most games dill curry also
38:23
Speaker 2: played 16 games like rod harper pulled it together and
38:26
Speaker 2: played 15 years but again we had a knee injury
38:29
Speaker 2: situation there were all kinds of guys that just washed
38:31
Speaker 2: out walter berry didn't become that guy.
38:34
Speaker 1: I remember that's not possible oh sorry i'm looking at
38:38
Speaker 1: the wrong draft you're right yeah well didn't get there
38:41
Speaker 1: but johnson Not a great Johnson, Alabama, right? Yeah. Yeah.
38:44
Speaker 2: Not a great pick by you. Houston Rockets coming off
38:48
Speaker 2: of that year. Arvita Sabotis is in that draft, but
38:50
Speaker 2: he only plays gets over here for seven years. And
38:53
Speaker 2: even then, by the time he got here, he had
38:55
Speaker 2: the knee problems. The guy that wound up having the
38:59
Speaker 2: best career in this draft turned out to be Dennis Rodman.
39:03
Speaker 3: And it is wild. We didn't know it at the time,
39:05
Speaker 3: but looking back on it at the end, in the
39:08
Speaker 3: cocaine draft, the last man standing was Dennis Rodman.
39:16
Speaker 1: It's crazy. And what's really sort of wild about it,
39:19
Speaker 1: just in terms of irony and when you're looking at
39:21
Speaker 1: all of these, when you go back and just look
39:23
Speaker 1: at the numbers, there are just so many moments where
39:31
Speaker 1: everything changes, but that's what history does, right? Where everything changes. And,
39:36
Speaker 1: and Dallas is such a good example of that because
39:40
Speaker 1: I remember, you know, knowing how different, there were like
39:45
Speaker 1: three guys that you remember outstandingly that when they were on,
39:51
Speaker 1: the future changed. One was Michael Ray Richardson, drugs. One
39:55
Speaker 1: was Roy Tarpley, another one, right? It was like, oh,
39:59
Speaker 1: suddenly their teams are totally different teams when he's playing,
40:05
Speaker 1: you know? And then the drugs just sort of changed everything.
40:07
Speaker 1: And obviously, you know, bias is the, you know, the third,
40:11
Speaker 1: like the what ifs and how things would have just
40:14
Speaker 1: completely shifted. Yeah.
40:16
Speaker 3: Like I say, should have took a square.
40:19
Speaker 2: The guy from that draft with the most win shares
40:22
Speaker 2: for his career in the end, Jeff Hortisek. Could have
40:26
Speaker 2: had Mark Price. Johnny, Nate McMillan. Squares abounded. You also
40:33
Speaker 2: had Chuck Person, who was just a lot of fun.
40:35
Speaker 1: A lot of fun. You know what surprised me in
40:36
Speaker 1: that draft? Because I was, once again, we talk about,
40:39
Speaker 1: you know, the blackness of the 80s and all those teams. Because,
40:43
Speaker 1: of course, I was a Georgetown guy at that time.
40:46
Speaker 1: David Wingate got 15 years.
40:48
Speaker 3: David Wingate did get 15 years.
40:49
Speaker 1: He got 15 years. And one thing that people do
40:52
Speaker 1: not talk anywhere nearly enough about is that this is
40:57
Speaker 1: still a job. Yeah.
40:59
Speaker 3: Right?
41:00
Speaker 1: He got 15 years on the job.
41:02
Speaker 3: That's a gold watch.
41:04
Speaker 1: Right? I mean, and that is some real talk right
41:07
Speaker 1: there in terms of also just being a professional. Like
41:11
Speaker 1: Johnny Newman, 16 years in the league? Yep.
41:14
Speaker 3: Keep coming to work.
41:15
Speaker 1: And people tell you, what's the average service time in
41:21
Speaker 1: the league? Is it three years? Average career length? Three years?
41:24
Speaker 1: You got 16? 16. 16.
41:25
Speaker 2: By the way, another square you might have wanted to take.
41:29
Speaker 2: Johnny Dawkins.
41:31
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. One of my favorites.
41:32
Speaker 3: Yeah. Johnny Boyd.
41:34
Speaker 1: If you ever meet him. And his knee. And he
41:35
Speaker 1: was a great player until he tore up his knee
41:38
Speaker 1: with Philly.
41:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you ever hear about a black man
41:40
Speaker 2: rooting for Duke of a certain age, you're like, why
41:42
Speaker 2: would you do such a thing, that Johnny Dawkins thing?
41:44
Speaker 2: Johnny Dawkins happened before all the other stuff did. Well,
41:47
Speaker 2: that was my reason. Duke was one of my favorite teams.
41:50
Speaker 2: Because they had the black backcourt of Dawkins Amaker. Yeah,
41:53
Speaker 2: but you got over that shit, right?
41:55
Speaker 1: Very quickly.
41:55
Speaker 3: Okay.
41:56
Speaker 1: Hey, hey, hey.
41:58
Speaker 3: You've said enough.
41:59
Speaker 1: I mean, come on. I know, I know. That hurt
42:01
Speaker 1: me right there.
42:02
Speaker 3: I know, but you know, right? Like I just had
42:04
Speaker 3: for the audience. I did that for the audience. I
42:08
Speaker 3: did that for the people.
42:08
Speaker 2: I needed to make sure that they knew that I
42:10
Speaker 2: wouldn't allow a double agent to sneak in here.
42:14
Speaker 3: Drozd Petrovic was in this draft too.
42:16
Speaker 1: I noticed that.
42:17
Speaker 3: There's so much in there.
42:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you weren't here, boy, that Drozd Petrovic was
42:22
Speaker 2: a motherfucker, boy.
42:23
Speaker 3: Good gracious, he was good. And all of them Euro guards,
42:28
Speaker 3: like them Slavic guards or just Eastern Europeans, him and
42:31
Speaker 3: the OG Saruna's Marshall. I was going to say, Oh,
42:34
Speaker 3: they came over here with a game that looks familiar.
42:37
Speaker 3: We're like, Oh y'all out here. Whoop it. Yeah.
42:40
Speaker 1: And my, and Marshall Lona's who's, you know, he had
42:43
Speaker 1: them thighs and calves like a soccer player and, and
42:47
Speaker 1: Euro step. And he was, he played a lot like
42:49
Speaker 1: Ginobili before Ginobili, but he was more muscular. He's a
42:51
Speaker 1: bigger guy. Um, It's true. I mean, it is, once again,
42:55
Speaker 1: really fascinating watching all of those players. Because once again,
43:00
Speaker 1: that was my sweet spot where that was the moment
43:03
Speaker 1: where the Big East was as popular as the NBA
43:06
Speaker 1: in our neck of the woods. And so I remember,
43:12
Speaker 1: and also let's not forget the white stiff player. Because
43:18
Speaker 1: there was Ewing, but there were all these other guys
43:20
Speaker 1: that everybody thought, you know, the John Concax and the
43:23
Speaker 1: Larry Kristoliak and the Greg Dreilings and all these dudes, right?
43:30
Speaker 1: And it's like- BWS, Big White Stiff.
43:32
Speaker 2: It's an archetype that has largely been eliminated.
43:36
Speaker 3: Kind of sadly, they made things more fun.
43:39
Speaker 1: Well, you know, once again, you know, they like to
43:42
Speaker 1: blame us, but they're actually cannibalizing each other. Because the
43:46
Speaker 1: European players came in, opened up the space, and then
43:50
Speaker 1: the big white guy in the middle who, hey man,
43:52
Speaker 1: I was always guaranteed a job. What you mean there's
43:57
Speaker 1: no room for me anymore? The game shifts.
44:01
Speaker 3: It did. Who else we got here? Kenny Skywalker, 1989
44:05
Speaker 3: Slam Dunk champion.
44:06
Speaker 1: Kenny Skywalker, Kentucky. Kentucky. You know, one of the guys
44:09
Speaker 1: in the chef, I was actually thinking about this because
44:11
Speaker 1: I was laughing when I went through this. They were Obviously,
44:15
Speaker 1: Len Bias accepted, but who's the one guy in that
44:20
Speaker 1: draft in the first round who did not play a
44:24
Speaker 1: game in the NBA? Huh.
44:28
Speaker 3: I do not know.
44:30
Speaker 1: The jerry-curled fighting Irish Kenny Barlow.
44:35
Speaker 3: Oh, you know what's so funny? I was picking him
44:37
Speaker 3: up with Kenny Norman. I was so confused when I
44:40
Speaker 3: saw the gap and was like, I don't understand why
44:43
Speaker 3: there's a gap. I remember Kenny Norman, but you're right,
44:46
Speaker 3: Kenny Barlow.
44:47
Speaker 1: Kenny Barlow, Notre Dame. We used to make fun, right?
44:51
Speaker 1: Because I didn't like Notre Dame. Notre Dame basketball was
44:56
Speaker 1: never much to me about anything. But they, you know.
44:59
Speaker 1: We used to make fun of the Jerry Crilled Afro
45:01
Speaker 1: Brothers over there. They had Kenny Barlow and then they
45:03
Speaker 1: had David Rivers. They did have David Rivers. You know,
45:07
Speaker 1: who we used to make fun of because of the
45:10
Speaker 1: Nintendo game Punch-Out. We used to call him Kid Quick. Oh, wow.
45:19
Speaker 3: Now, this draft was all over the place.
45:22
Speaker 2: It was another Russian, Sasha Volkov, that played for the
45:25
Speaker 2: Hawks for a couple years.
45:26
Speaker 1: Not to be confused with Nikolai Volkov from the WWF.
45:29
Speaker 3: No, no, completely different situation. We were about that Sasha
45:33
Speaker 3: Volkov life, but it never happened. I mentioned it quickly before.
45:36
Speaker 3: Chuck Person got to be wishing he could play today.
45:38
Speaker 1: Oh, no doubt.
45:39
Speaker 3: First of all. So great things about Chuck Conner, about
45:42
Speaker 3: Chuck person, excuse me.
45:43
Speaker 2: First of all, his nickname was the rifleman because his
45:47
Speaker 2: middle name was Connors because he was actually.
45:49
Speaker 1: Named after the rifleman.
45:51
Speaker 2: And then became a guy that just shot a bunch
45:54
Speaker 2: of three pointers and then suffered an ignominious end to
45:57
Speaker 2: his coaching career. As he went down, as none of
46:00
Speaker 2: the head coaches went down during that last little coaching scandal,
46:03
Speaker 2: back when you could get in trouble for paying people
46:05
Speaker 2: to play basketball.
46:08
Speaker 1: And hilariously too, Chuck Connors. His mother did name him
46:14
Speaker 1: after the rifleman, after Chuck Connors. And on top of that,
46:17
Speaker 1: he also was a Boston Celtic.
46:19
Speaker 3: He was.
46:20
Speaker 1: He was.
46:21
Speaker 3: He was. Chuck Connors. Keep calling him Chuck Connors. Chuck
46:24
Speaker 3: Person and Reggie Miller on the same team, but you
46:27
Speaker 3: make it 2019. Mm-hmm. Hey, man, they might be the
46:32
Speaker 3: greatest show on earth.
46:33
Speaker 1: And that team was one of the great villains because
46:36
Speaker 1: that was Byrd's last year when he hit his head
46:38
Speaker 1: in the court in the... In the playoffs, Chuck Person
46:42
Speaker 1: was hitting from everywhere. He was one of the great villains,
46:45
Speaker 1: and he reveled in that too, but he could play.
46:49
Speaker 1: That Indiana team is interesting as well because they weren't
46:52
Speaker 1: championship level, but you knew when you played them, you
46:54
Speaker 1: were going to get into some stuff.
46:55
Speaker 3: Right, right.
46:56
Speaker 2: By the way, another great square, Nate McMillan, future head coach.
47:00
Speaker 1: Another one.
47:00
Speaker 3: Got his jersey so square, he got his jersey retired
47:03
Speaker 3: by the Sonics.
47:04
Speaker 1: That is its own program. Squares in the rafters by
47:08
Speaker 1: Bomani Jones.
47:09
Speaker 3: Nick Collison. Mr.
47:10
Speaker 1: Thunder. Another one, right?
47:12
Speaker 3: Yeah, where they just, hey man, they just liked you.
47:15
Speaker 1: They just liked you.
47:16
Speaker 3: Avery Johnson.
47:17
Speaker 1: And that's a good one.
47:18
Speaker 3: No, the difference is at least Avery Johnson won a championship.
47:22
Speaker 1: Yes.
47:23
Speaker 3: With the Spurs. These other guys were just there.
47:25
Speaker 1: For a long time. Yeah, right.
47:27
Speaker 3: Not all stars. No, no, no. Just people. And I'm
47:31
Speaker 3: all for that.
47:32
Speaker 1: There is something to be said for sticking around. Yeah.
47:37
Speaker 3: And again, in this draft, Hey, man, that would be
47:42
Speaker 3: the docuseries, Surviving the 86 Draft.
47:45
Speaker 1: That's right.
47:46
Speaker 2: Anybody that was in it, and you managed to make
47:48
Speaker 2: a crowd of it, shout out to you, John Sally,
47:50
Speaker 2: Surviving the 1986 Draft, and getting yourself like four championships
47:54
Speaker 2: out of the deal.
47:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I, you know, just go back and look
47:57
Speaker 1: at that 86 Draft, and another guy there who was
48:00
Speaker 1: on one of my, there are two of them in
48:02
Speaker 1: there on my list. I didn't buy into one of them,
48:05
Speaker 1: but I always still do talk about the list of,
48:09
Speaker 1: your greatest misses, right? Who were the guys that you
48:12
Speaker 1: were convinced were easily going to be great players and
48:16
Speaker 1: never turned into great players. And two of them are
48:18
Speaker 1: on that list. One was Walter Berry. Yeah. You know,
48:21
Speaker 1: everybody thought he was six, eight, two 20 was just
48:24
Speaker 1: going to just roll left-handed as well. Never really was
48:28
Speaker 1: a great player. And the other one that everybody thought
48:30
Speaker 1: was going to be a good player. I didn't think
48:31
Speaker 1: it was a great player, but people talked about him
48:32
Speaker 1: back then was Billy Thompson and Louisville. Yeah. And Billy
48:36
Speaker 1: Thompson went to the Lakers and was like, oh man,
48:38
Speaker 1: the Richards just got richer. And won a title with them.
48:44
Speaker 3: This, it's, when you just see all the names, Kevin Duckworth.
48:48
Speaker 1: Yep.
48:48
Speaker 3: He's in this draft. Kevin Duckworth's the worst thing. Good
48:52
Speaker 3: enough to be your center, but certainly to be a
48:55
Speaker 3: liability of one form or another in the end because
48:57
Speaker 3: he was just a little bit too chubby.
48:59
Speaker 2: Like he was he was he is an interesting version
49:02
Speaker 2: of he was a big man who didn't play like
49:05
Speaker 2: a tall man.
49:06
Speaker 1: That's right he played small he provided no presence and
49:09
Speaker 1: he was a jump shooter quick enough just wasn't quick
49:11
Speaker 1: enough to to be that presence and fade away jumper.
49:14
Speaker 3: You could what else could he do now were you
49:17
Speaker 3: were you not a guy who bought into pearl washington
49:19
Speaker 3: because these new york talk about Pearl Washington like he
49:21
Speaker 3: was a ghost.
49:23
Speaker 1: I am in the Pearl Washington all the way camp.
49:26
Speaker 1: And while you were talking, I was thinking about this,
49:29
Speaker 1: that it's so... So such a big part of this
49:35
Speaker 1: was how important the Big East was. We got to
49:38
Speaker 1: see them dudes all the time. I mean, they were
49:41
Speaker 1: actually rivaling the NBA. I don't know if it was
49:44
Speaker 1: that way in terms of ratings, but I know that
49:46
Speaker 1: if you said, who do you watch? People would have
49:48
Speaker 1: been like Celtics, Lakers, Georgetown, Syracuse. Anyway, Pearl Washington, I
49:55
Speaker 1: remember because I was a big basketball junkie back then.
49:57
Speaker 1: I used to read all those Street and Smith trade
49:59
Speaker 1: mags and basketball digest and all of them. And they were,
50:02
Speaker 1: I remember the scouts would talk about how Pearl Washington
50:04
Speaker 1: could play in the NBA. And what was funny about
50:06
Speaker 1: it was, was when he got to the NBA, when
50:11
Speaker 1: you saw him against other NBA players, you were like,
50:14
Speaker 1: you're kind of short and fat and can't, and can't shoot.
50:20
Speaker 1: He had a flat jump shot, kind of leaned in
50:22
Speaker 1: and you, but at that time, that was an example
50:26
Speaker 1: of when you could be an East coast point guard,
50:29
Speaker 1: and drive the hoop and just play East Coast basketball.
50:32
Speaker 1: You didn't have to have a J from way outside.
50:35
Speaker 1: All you had to do was take dude number one
50:37
Speaker 1: off the dribble and go. And everybody talked about Pearl Washington.
50:42
Speaker 1: Pearl Washington is a legend, man. And Pearl Washington is
50:45
Speaker 1: one of those guys where you realized, at least for me,
50:48
Speaker 1: who's going to become a reporter and become a journalist,
50:50
Speaker 1: was realizing how many tools you actually had to have
50:55
Speaker 1: to be an NBA player. You know what I mean?
50:58
Speaker 1: Like that gap between college player, Naismith level player, NBA player,
51:05
Speaker 1: NBA great. Like huge gap in that last step. And
51:11
Speaker 1: Pearl was one of them guys because when he got
51:12
Speaker 1: to the NBA, when he was with the Nets, I
51:14
Speaker 1: was like, that's Pearl? Everybody was better than Pearl Washington
51:18
Speaker 1: because he was quick, but he wasn't fast. And then
51:22
Speaker 1: they used to, you know, all that NBA. And also,
51:25
Speaker 1: let's also not forget the New York of it all. Yeah.
51:31
Speaker 2: Now, the last thing I wrap with, and this is
51:33
Speaker 2: the interesting thing because we often think about this draft, obviously,
51:35
Speaker 2: in terms of the cocaine and the reputational damage, but
51:39
Speaker 2: it's also worth noting, David Robinson was the number one
51:42
Speaker 2: pick in 87, but if you go through those drafts.
51:45
Speaker 3: 88, 90, 88, 89, 90, even 91 because Larry Johnson's
51:52
Speaker 3: back wound up giving out. Between David Robinson and Shaquille O'Neal,
51:56
Speaker 3: the draft wasn't yielding that many great plays. This is
51:59
Speaker 3: not the only draft that you went back to look
52:02
Speaker 3: at and were like, huh, that didn't turn out the
52:05
Speaker 3: way that we thought.
52:05
Speaker 2: So 87, you wind up with Reggie Miller becomes a
52:08
Speaker 2: Hall of Famer after Robinson.
52:10
Speaker 3: But Danny Manning, Didn't work out his number one pick.
52:13
Speaker 3: Nervous in service, purpose. His number one pick at 89.
52:16
Speaker 2: Derek Coleman, all-time unreal talent.
52:19
Speaker 3: It didn't happen.
52:21
Speaker 2: You get guys like Mutombo in 91 or whatever, but
52:23
Speaker 2: 92 is where you get Shaq and you get Alonzo Mourning.
52:27
Speaker 3: Like that draft felt like a little more. But this was.
52:29
Speaker 2: Actually an interesting period of time where the NBA was
52:32
Speaker 2: not really getting the guys out of college to keep
52:36
Speaker 2: the thing afloat as it had been. We're like in
52:38
Speaker 2: 1982 were the top three picks. I contend that if
52:41
Speaker 2: you would put any of those three guys, which were worthy,
52:43
Speaker 2: Terry Cummins and Dominique Wilkins, put each of them on
52:47
Speaker 2: each other's teams and.
52:48
Speaker 3: The end results maybe are very similar.
52:50
Speaker 1: That's right. You know what I mean?
52:51
Speaker 3: But it was still like Terry Cummins gets forgotten, but
52:53
Speaker 3: that was three really good players, right? Mark.
52:57
Speaker 1: Great player.
52:57
Speaker 3: Yes.
53:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was like the big forward with a small
53:03
Speaker 2: forward game. Like he and Dominique Wilkins were kind of pioneering.
53:06
Speaker 2: And James Worthy, like three guys, big forwards, small forward games. 81,
53:09
Speaker 2: you had Aguirre and Isaiah Thomas at the top of
53:13
Speaker 2: the draft. The draft was putting dudes out there. And
53:16
Speaker 2: then for whatever reason, we wound up with the lull.
53:19
Speaker 3: And that lull kind of starts here because even with Robinson,
53:22
Speaker 3: you had to wait for two years because he went
53:23
Speaker 3: on to both.
53:25
Speaker 1: Exactly, his commitment. And also one of the other pieces
53:28
Speaker 1: of that that is consistent happening at the same time
53:32
Speaker 1: in real time is by the time you get to
53:34
Speaker 1: 88 you win the bronze in the olympics yep and
53:38
Speaker 1: it and everything shifts in the other direction right everything
53:42
Speaker 1: goes and now all of a sudden you get to
53:44
Speaker 1: the dream team and by the time you get there
53:47
Speaker 1: now we start we're starting to think about alternative sources
53:54
Speaker 1: of talent now it's becoming an international game And before
53:56
Speaker 1: we go, the last thing I do want to say
53:58
Speaker 1: about this is that we did not mention the other
54:00
Speaker 1: Hall of Famer in that draft, which is Sabonis.
54:04
Speaker 3: Sabonis, yeah. We got to know him quickly.
54:06
Speaker 1: Very quickly. Sabonis was the Vladimir Tretyak of basketball. It
54:11
Speaker 1: was like, if he could come over here, like the
54:13
Speaker 1: great goalie for the USSR, if he played in the NHL,
54:17
Speaker 1: Sabonis was killing dudes internationally. Sabonis was supposed to be
54:22
Speaker 1: Kareem and Walton combined, but he was behind the Iron Curtain.
54:26
Speaker 1: And one of these days, we're going to get to
54:28
Speaker 1: see Sabonis. And he got drafted, and he didn't show up, obviously,
54:34
Speaker 1: until what, 92? 95. 95. So he got drafted nine
54:39
Speaker 1: years before he made his NBA debut and was still
54:43
Speaker 1: a really good player. He just wasn't the same. He
54:45
Speaker 1: wasn't Sabonis. He was heavier. But go back and look
54:47
Speaker 1: at Sabonis. in the 80s playing international for the USSR.
54:54
Speaker 2: But that's the thing about the 88 loss, which, as
54:57
Speaker 2: I recall, was only like by a couple of buckets.
54:59
Speaker 3: Yeah. David Robinson got off the boat.
55:02
Speaker 1: Yeah.
55:03
Speaker 3: David Robinson got off the boat, had to go guard Sabonis, man.
55:08
Speaker 1: Sabonis put some work. Sabonis put some work on you.
55:14
Speaker 2: That team was like David Robinson, Dan Marley, Danny Manning.
55:19
Speaker 1: Hersey Hawkins was on that team.
55:20
Speaker 3: Yeah, man.
55:21
Speaker 1: Well, because the coach, John Thompson, didn't put enough offense
55:25
Speaker 1: on that team and people didn't like Big John anyway.
55:28
Speaker 1: And they were like, we're going to pay you back
55:30
Speaker 1: for this, John. Yeah. Bronze? We're going to pay you
55:33
Speaker 1: back for this, John.
55:34
Speaker 3: Boy, we overreact.
55:35
Speaker 2: Don't nobody overreact like when America lose a basketball game.
55:39
Speaker 2: Get ready in 2028 when Victor come knock down the
55:42
Speaker 2: buildings in LA. I don't know what they're going to
55:44
Speaker 2: do to the basketball program. Something's going to have to change.
55:49
Speaker 2: Promises were made. Promises will be kept.
55:52
Speaker 1: That's right. It'll be like the white salesman in Boogie
55:55
Speaker 1: Nights talking to Don Cheadle.
55:58
Speaker 3: What kind of.
55:58
Speaker 1: Brother are you? You know, Black men losing to gold? Yes.
56:05
Speaker 1: What kind of brothers? In America? In Los Angeles? What
56:08
Speaker 1: kind of brothers are you?
56:10
Speaker 3: It's going to be tough. We got to keep Chet
56:12
Speaker 3: off that team, boy. That's all I know. Unfortunately, Chet.
56:16
Speaker 1: As you already talked about it, don't put Chet in
56:19
Speaker 1: front of Victor.
56:20
Speaker 3: I can't.
56:23
Speaker 1: Just go watch some bullfighting or something shit like that, right?
56:26
Speaker 1: Put that little red thing right in front of him.
56:29
Speaker 1: Little Toro. You're done. I can't do it. Oh, man.
56:34
Speaker 3: Hey, man.
56:34
Speaker 1: Hey, Wemby. Chet's in the corner. Chet just rolled up. Oui, oui.
56:45
Speaker 3: Got it.
56:46
Speaker 1: Got it. I got this.
56:48
Speaker 3: Howard Bryant.
56:49
Speaker 1: Check it out. Here we go again.
56:50
Speaker 3: Kings and Pawns.
56:51
Speaker 2: Still available. Where all fine books are sold. My brother,
56:55
Speaker 2: I appreciate you.
56:56
Speaker 1: All fine, man.
56:57
Speaker 3: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much for joining
56:59
Speaker 3: us here on The Right Time. We do this four
57:01
Speaker 3: days a week. Ryan Brumley had on everything behind the scenes.
57:04
Speaker 3: Thank you, sir.
57:05
Speaker 2: Hit the voicemail line 323-596-7767.
57:09
Speaker 3: Remember, follow the right time.
57:11
Speaker 2: Subscribe, like, rate us, review us, give us five stars.
57:14
Speaker 3: You only give us four stars.
57:15
Speaker 2: I'm inclined to believe you are a hater and we'll
57:17
Speaker 2: talk to you guys in a couple of days.
57:19
Speaker 3: Take it easy.