Latest / It's Time for Success: The Business Insights Podcast / The Power of Commitment: 30 Years of Wisdom in Business and Leadership with Gary Kulak
Transcript
- Sharon Welcome to It’s Time for Success. Today, I’m honored to sit down with someone who truly represents what commitment and leadership look like in business. Our guest, Gary Kulak, has been with ATB for 30 years. I need to know what keeps them there. I need to know why someone would commit 30 years—and how do we, as entrepreneurs, retain key team members like Gary for 30 years. Throughout his career, Gary has guided countless individuals and businesses, building relationships that stand the test of time. Today, together, we will get these questions answered. We get to explore what has kept Gary inspired, his leadership lessons, and why creating a strong culture of loyalty matters more than ever. Today, with Gary’s help, we get to learn how to be better leaders. Thank you, Gary, for joining us. Gary Thank you, Sharon. Thanks for asking me as well. Sharon It’s gonna be fun.So Gary, 30 years with ATB is nothing but remarkable. Can you take us back to the beginning? What drew you to the banking world? Why numbers and why banking? Why? Gary Yeah, well, it was, ironically, an investment presentation that my twin brother made in one of our high school classes, and that was about the stock market and making investments. I thought that was really cool. I was really intrigued by it, but you might think that would have driven me to a stockbroker role, but I asked myself, how can I stay on top of investments in markets, and what could I do? This is where I started to think about banking. Sharon When you look back, was there a moment when you thought, This is more than a job, this is where I belong? What made you feel like that? Like I tell my team, the way I look at it, you are there for more than eight hours a day. Sometimes you're with us more than you are at home with your other half. So it has to be a fit, and you have to know that that's where you want to be. For both of us, as an entrepreneur and for them, life is short. We just talked about that, right? So what was the deciding factor to make you stay there? Gary Yeah, I started with ATB in May of 1995, and I knew it was going to be a career. You just had that sense. I think the moment in your question became when I was the branch manager in Provost, and I went there in August of 2003, and I was 27 years old at the time, and it felt like an accomplishment. That was like you hit a new part of your career. After eight years with ATB, you became a branch manager in a town in Provost. It was kind of cool because, in part of that process, it allowed you to buy your own house, and it really started to make it feel like, Now I have a home. This was a defining role. I'd have to say that was the moment that I thought, yeah, this is more than just a job. Of course, you always knew it was going to be a career, but you hit some kind of a benchmark in getting to somewhere. I figured at 27 that was pretty cool achievement. Sharon It is very cool. You made the comment that really resonates with me, job versus a career. It speaks to me like there's no tomorrow, because I feel that a job is a job, you get a paycheck, and maybe you can elaborate on that too. But a career is a paycheck, but you feel fulfilled. Gary Yeah, fulfilled. And, in getting prepared today, I kind of reflect, there's a purpose, right? Sharon I couldn't think of that word, yes, thank you. Purpose. Yeah, you have a purpose. Gary And don't get me wrong, a job has its purpose as well, but a career has… where you have a defined opportunity to drive your own success as well, right? So sometimes I might like to say that career could start with just a job, if you can find that, and yes, you might have that passion to turn it into a career. So where people start and where people end are gonna all have different, if you want to say, paths that they'll take? Sharon Yeah, I always think of, actually, I think I've told this in a different podcast. So poor Jamie, her ears ring regularly. She's only just young 20s, yes, and she said that if, how does she word it? Now, she basically said to me, and I thought, how do you know this? You're only young 20s, and not very often this happens at that age. But she says, “Look around. If you ever have a few minutes, look around where you are and find out how you can help your boss.” So that's got the mindset of a career, as far as I'm concerned, or how can you help your other team members? If you have a few minutes, take a good look around to see how you can help others. That is wanting to step up, and that's wanting to grow, right? She’s not grabbing her phone and scrolling to kill five minutes or whatever, right? It's a huge difference. It's a huge mindset, because there's both. Gary Yeah. There's a caring and sharing mentality, isn't that? Sharon Yep, most people move companies every few years. I think there was a stat like, they'll jump careers or companies, or whatever the case is… You've been with ATB, so say, for example, you could have easily gone to another banking institution, but you stayed with ATB. And I think the average stats for an employee or team member is four years. I think it was a few years ago, but average that is four years. So, 30 years, come on. That's like, I can't even do the math here. That's huge. So what inspired you to stay committed for over three decades, Gary? Gary Yeah, in reflecting, I thought someone once told me the grass isn't always greener on the other side; but it's your responsibility to water the grass on your side. Sharon Oh my goodness, that's awesome. Gary I really felt like that was a commitment that I made, and in my 30 years, it was an easy commitment, because your values aligned with the company values. If there's ever a change that you felt between leadership and, or executive, that all of a sudden my values are not anywhere near aligned with what the company's values are, I would probably seek out those changes. People might look at that after four years, and if that's the average, maybe they're still searching. Maybe they still need to find something to define what their purpose and their values are. I think I was lucky enough to say, Hey, you might have had a lucky start early on, and you recognized that your values and your goals were very much aligned with the organization. I can attribute that to good leaders and executives for sure. Sharon That's what I was gonna say. You're speaking to another person trying to find their career path, but as an employer looking in, we actually gotta acknowledge that what happens if we do have a turnaround every four years, or that's just the average, there's something going on internally, I think, in your organization. It's not necessarily bad luck or whatever they're blaming, right? It could be, yes, for sure, yes. Okay, thank you for that. Then I have here, what values… of course, with values, you’ve got integrity, you've got trust, played in your longevity, or was it the… You talked a little bit about culture, the people. But you changed differently; you went from Provost to Lloydminster, so it's always different people as well, or the opportunities that kept you loyal. Tell me what kept you loyal to ATB in particular? Gary Yeah, I think I felt that this is really a reflection of my key role of values were 110% aligned with the organization's values, and what are they? Honesty and integrity. Really, when you look at banking, that's actually a standard, that's a given. There is a part of me, it's like, well, maybe my values are very secure with this type of organization. To me, I guess that's what has aligned me into a banking career, right? The weird part about it would be, you might find those values with every financial institution, but ATB is more of a family, and I felt that. There are roots to where you grew up and how your family was involved with agriculture, and that's exactly ATB's start, back in agriculture, back in 1938, when not a lot of institutions were out in Western Canada during those depression and Dirty Thirty years, and that's where the Alberta government came up to the plate and said, we're making Alberta Treasury Branches. So it's evolved since 1938. You have had family that are farmers and are involved with agriculture that have benefited. It was an easy spot to pick from in my hometown of Vegreville, to look into a career in 1995 when you finished your two years at NAIT, right? Sharon So you found an alignment, kind of, right. Even sometimes, when people come to It's Time, they have a creative background, so that's the common alignment there, and the rest of the, you know, core values and all that kind of stuff goes around it, but your alignment was the agriculture, and that's what got you there, and that's where you felt comfortable, and then you're able to grow from there. Hmm, so find your alignment. I like that. Okay. And banking has changed. I've witnessed it a lot. Now I can take a picture of my damn check and upload it. So it's changed. I couldn't even imagine what you've seen in your 30 years. So how did you stay adaptable while staying true to everything? Because now, I don't go into the branch as much. You probably don't have as close a connection with your people, your members, do you? I don't know, tell me. Gary Yeah, how people bank today is different. While self-service versus branch opportunities, I feel like we do have that opportunity to provide options for clients on how they wish to bank. That's awesome to me. There are probably way more options today, and that's a good thing. To me, staying adaptable, you have to learn the ins and the outs, and sometimes I always think of the cyber criminals that are out there, right? It's had to stay one step ahead of them. So it's advising businesses on staying cyber secure, and so those types of things are always going to be there. What hasn't changed is your core values, right? Banking, in between honesty, integrity and trust are all still needed today to manage client relationships and even internal partnership relationships as well. Lots of things have changed, and yet there's a core value there that, to me, really hasn't changed. It's the delivery, and it's the way banking is perceived and tackled. You can literally bank anywhere, anytime. I think about years ago, when I was in Vegreville, when Alberta Treasury Branch put in a bank machine, and all of a sudden you didn't have to worry about not having enough cash for the weekend. Sharon That was a huge, I remember that, yes. Gary Didn’t seem like that long ago, but how monumental was that? Today it's just one of those where, yeah, that's expected, it's assumed. There's so much more you can do. To your point, Sharon, technology has elevated that experience, and I think it's a great thing to be innovative and move and change and be up to date with the times. Sharon There have to have been ups and downs in your career path. Has there ever been a time you said, screw this, I'm out of here? How did you get through it? What did you do? Gary Yeah, ups and downs happen. I'm gonna say that my family, for a support system, has been super awesome and great. I will even say I extend my family into my leadership team, right? People at work are also your next best people to support you, as well. It goes without saying, sometimes, if I were to generalize, in 30 years, my career with ATB is like a super awesome family, and like every family, you're gonna have your little family squabbles from time to time. But when push comes to shove, they have your back. This is where I actually have the commitment and the support from my leaders to have my back when you need to get picked up or you need help and support. So, maybe the real obvious opportunity is, Sharon, the 30-year time frame for me, when I celebrated my 30 years of ATB, is in the same timeframe my dad was ill, and so, it was well known. They said, “Gary, take the time you need. Take the time, don't have the regrets of missing time.” So I was taking time away to do trips with specialists and whatnot. That is a very real example, because it was very recent. My dad passed away at the end of June, and so I can look back and reflect and say I don't have regrets that I wasn't there enough or this or that. I can say my ATB family supported me through. It doesn't have to be banking ups and downs, but it can be your own personal lives. And so, there's other banking stuff that, call it what you want, you still get the same level of support. The part that I'm very proud of is the fact that I got a chance to celebrate 30 years. When my dad looked at me and said, “Wow, Gary, 30 years. That is super awesome,” I was like, geez. You always knew your dad or your parents were proud of some of the accomplishments that you make. That meant a lot. Weird part, Sharon, we're delaying this because that timeframe wasn't really great to connect sooner, but I'm so glad that we still get a chance to connect like this, because it's one of my proud moments in my visitations that I had with my dad at that time. Sharon Very nice, very nice. One thing you talked about in there, too… so again, it was from a team member's perspective, but as an entrepreneur, I'm picking up, is to give grace and be the support that you can to your team members when required. I feel that I do that, but I think employers need to do that. They need to do that if they want that relationship and that dedication that you have to offer, and willingly. It can't be like, fine. You literally have to care. You literally have to help those people. You literally have to be compassionate, I think, as an employer. Gary Yeah. Sharon, when you were saying that, the word genuine came to my mind. There could be leaders or organizations that might be willing, but grudgingly… If you can be genuine and just say, Hey, you might need what you need, and that support is there. I'm also going to throw this back and say that I think employees and individuals like myself, this is where, maybe to get to that stage, to get that mutual respect, you still have to do what you need to do to water the grass, to make it green on your side. You can't expect that grass to be green without putting time and effort into it. If you have a leadership and executive and management team that recognizes this would be an employee that's watering his or her own grass, when the time is needed that they need a little bit extra time for managing of things… Sharon And we will go and water the grass while you're gone. Gary It's going to be a genuine, mutual feel. I will say there that it is a mutually responsible task to keep that hand. It can't all just fall on you as the entrepreneur or the… Sharon You can’t take, take, take. It's a give and take relationship. Gary That's right. That's right. Sharon So, I have here, what do you believe builds true loyalty in a team or a client relationship? I think we kind of touched on that a little bit more, with the watering their grass and stuff, or what do you think? Gary Yeah. When you want to build loyalty in a team or a client relationship, you need to build trust, you need to really build that trust. If you can build that trust with your clients, you will be maintaining your honesty and integrity with them, and you’ll have that ability to have them come back to you for either advice or things in the future. It's no different than a team member, an associate, as well. There's always a mutual respect that needs to be put in place. That's going to be built with trust. Sharon Absolutely. Thank you for clarifying that, because it is huge. Yeah, it's a relationship. It's not employee, employer, it has nothing to do with that. It's a relationship. It's like, yeah, we're basically in bed together. Gary Exactly, exactly. That's what's happening. Yes, for 30 years, right? Sharon You've been in bed with ATB for 30 years. Oh my God, okay, here's a good one. Is there a story that stands out to you? A time when trust and relationship-building made all the difference? Of course, names aren't important, just the story behind it. Do you have one that you could share with us? Gary You know? Yeah, Sharon, looking at that script, this is one where I feel like I don't really have any one story. But I feel like there are many stories. I think what I would generalize is, when I have to reflect on this one… it’s when clients are able to achieve their goals. And so for clients, and now I'll say, now I'm in the business line, it could be they finally got the opportunity to buy a brand new piece of equipment, or expand their business. They doubled their gross sales, or they grew profitably. Those are things they have done. And the weird part would be that I always feel like we're the partner that's part of it, that helps advise and drive and guide along. So, to me, I feel like if there's any sort of success, it's sharing in those steps along the way to get more clients to go… Sharon Or high-five them at the end, yeah. That's exciting. You want to be there to help them grow, and to be there as their support network. I always say I need three people in my corner, and that's my accountant, my lawyer and my banker. That's who I need. As an entrepreneur, I need those three people in my corner, cheering me on, giving me guidance, being my mentors. That's what I need, those three people are huge. Gary Yeah, and I'll say that's your bar stool, and your bar stool doesn't hold up without the support, equally, from any one of those people at any point in time. To reflect on more of these answers, in some way, it's all defined by the stage where that entrepreneur is. If they're at the end of their business career, it's finding satisfaction that they see their retirement years. If they're in a growth phase of their entrepreneurial years, it's helping them grow. In 30 years, you may have the opportunity to see people at every single stage, and sometimes you're only part of people's process for certain timeframes. While I've been with ATB for 30 years, it hasn't always been with one branch or one set of clients, but you're going to have the opportunity to pick up where some other relationship manager has managed that and continue on with that. So, I'd say that's a sincere way of saying you find the ways to share in people's success as they're moving along their own business and entrepreneur journey. Sharon From your perspective, how can businesses create environments where people want to stay for the long haul? You're talking to me. From your experience and what you went through, how can I retain my employees for 30 years? What are your thoughts on that? Gary Yeah, retention, for me, is understanding what your purpose is, understanding your values. I talked about your values, and aligning your values with the company. Sharon So, they have to understand the company's values. That's something, you know, we just redid our core values and published them, but I think that we need to bring them up in meetings more regularly. I think our team needs to know that is how we function. Everything revolves around those core values on a regular basis. Yeah, I think that's values, right? Gary Absolutely. When people can align themselves with your business's core values, they can start to define their purpose as well. I think that’s probably one of the best things an entrepreneur can do: make sure that he or she can really translate to their employees what that value proposition is. It's awesome that you have one too, Sharon, because when you're building a business as an entrepreneur, that could be an oversight, and it's a fair one. If you want to reflect on how you can work on your business, that is exactly one thing you can do, making sure that you can translate. So if people feel that they can align themselves, and I'm only speaking to experience, because that's how I felt I've stayed with ATB. I felt aligned, and I felt that my values match what the organization's values are, and that hasn't changed in 30 years. I wouldn't anticipate that anything else will change, but you can always make your changes and your adjustments if you ever did see something that was a change. So hopefully that doesn't happen, but that's how I would define where you're going to be and where your purpose is. Sharon Yeah, and sometimes, you know, your values don't align. We've had that with people… we've hired… onboarded incorrectly, then it's not a fit. It's never like, not always, I should say, but the majority, 90% or 95% of the time, they're just not a fit. But let me help you find somewhere you can fit better. I truly believe that. Again, life is short. You're there for a lot of hours. You have to be happy there, and you have to feel accomplished at the end of the day. You have to feel that you've done something good, and you have to be proud of what you did in order to not only grow in business, but as a person. I feel that your confidence level goes up. It helps mental health. It's a whole thing; we're literally in bed together. Seriously, we are. If I can make you feel good doing what you do in a day, you have a better life. Gary You bet, and when I hear you talk as a leader and a business owner, there's got to be the same mutual respect for employees, that you're doing what you're doing as the best you can to add value to someone's career or job. Part of that's learning, part of that's training. A lot of time and effort goes into training, and so that is part of the journey, and part of building someone's purpose. How you craft and manage that can also be translating your goals and your values of your organization. Sharon And they change. I've been doing it for 18 years. It has changed. It has evolved. It's morphed. It’s no different than technology; everything is changing. My ideas are changing. I'm female, I get to change my mind every other day. Just kidding. But it's… you got to stay… and plus we're learning. You've got to have a team with you that acknowledges that we're kind of all going through it together. As long as we're aligned, we could probably make it work. We always call our team the flock, the geese. I don't know if you've heard that? Have you heard about that? About the geese, the flying geese? You honk to cheer each other on. One gets tired, they go back to the end of the flock. Sometimes other leaders have to step up and lead and guide. You want to stay in formation, because if you get out of formation, it's really windy out there, and it's harder to fly, so get back into formation. So that's how we refer to our team—the flock, and it's because of that, and it's so true. I acknowledged it before I even knew it was a leadership thing that you can actually do. Anyway, that's my fun story, you bet. Okay, so I think we touched on it about, you know, somebody wants more than just a paycheck. Of course, living now is hard, but what other things besides paychecks, which, of course, is something they need and something you need to give. What else would make somebody stay over a paycheck, as well as a paycheck? I should correct that, as well as a paycheck. Gary I would say achieving team success. That was my first thought, because to me, a paycheck is individualistic. It's very much a part of a purpose. Of course, I'd be lying to say that I wasn't going to work because I didn't need a paycheck. No, we do. But if you're fostering a growth mindset, having team goals and having the ability for people to share in a team, they're going to feel like they want to be part of that team. They're going to feel like they want to actually help contribute. If you've got more people contributing, Sharon, you just talked about it, the flock mindset, that's the team. There are times you're gonna have people step in and finish a project or have a success, and they were at the front. So, super awesome. There are other times where someone was tired or whatever that needed to be, Sharon Or maybe their dad's sick and they need to step out. Gary Bingo, exactly. So I say something bigger than a paycheck is trying to find a way to have team successes… setting up an organization… So you talked about your core values. Something you might consider is what are some of the team goals we want to achieve? Are they weekly? Are they monthly? What's the yearly team goal? Right? That was my first thought when I was preparing and thinking about this one. Sharon Okay, that's what we have for business owners listening, which is basically everybody, hopefully... What's one thing they can do today to build loyalty? We talked about team goals, we talked about values. What else can we do to build loyalty, or not even to your team… what about your clients? Gary Yeah. For teams, I'd say your team needs to be engaged in achieving like-minded goals, celebrating those successes, adding a layer of gratitude, and making your associates feel thanked and appreciated. That can go both ways, from leadership to the employees, or the employees actually being thankful and showing gratitude toward their leaders as well. Sharon How did they do that? Gary For me, I'd say, how many times do we thank the leader? Gary If I'm watering the grass on my side to keep it green, I'm going to thank my leader when my leader has helped me in any way. I think that's a very sincere way. The same thing is for clients, if you want to build that loyalty. When a client advocates for your business, they're paying the best compliment in being your advocate. Clients need to feel appreciated, respected, and trusting, and achieving this with your clients can be a consistent contact strategy and sales service. It goes a long way. When your client starts saying great things about you and your business—the great things that you do—that's going to build loyalty. You've already built that, and that's key. There’s a sense that these are similar strategies for clients and employees. For clients, it's easily definable when you start seeing that kind of activity. You know you've built a loyal client. Sharon You have to work on it, and you should be, not have to. You get to, I should change my wording, you get to work on it with them, right? Yes. Sometimes it's just a matter of saying thank you. One thing that we do at It’s Time, and if anybody's listening, if they can incorporate, and it depends on how many staff you have, but sometimes we just silently give them a bonus. If we recognize something that they've done, we'll just give them a bonus and say, “Thank you. We recognize that you've done this,” and it'll just be spontaneous. That's it. And of course in our team meetings, I almost always try to reach out to somebody in particular, in front of everybody, to say, I recognize that this person did this, and it's a really nice way of giving back, but it also helps the other team to see differently as well, or see them in a different light, or whatever the case is. So, those are two ways… I imagine there's a million ways of doing it, flowers on Secretary Day, whatever. There's probably a zillion ways of doing it, but incorporate it, somehow, whatever works with your organization, say thank you. Gary Yeah, I know for us, we have rewards and recognition. It's a pretty defined process and program. I can personally say it feels really good if you've nominated someone for some kind of a quarterly award, and they get that recognition based on your time and effort to recognize them. I've found that's more rewarding than trying to get one of the rewards yourself. Sharon Absolutely, giving. That goes into our next question: if you could give back and give advice to your younger self, what would it be? Gary Stay focused. Focus. Water the grass, stay focused. You might not always know what your purpose is, but if you did early on, don't forget what your purpose is. It's easy to take your eye off a goal or a direction that you need to take, or a path. Sometimes you hit a fork in the road, you don't know where to go. So, it's always easy to look back, but you need to trust your gut and keep your values true. To give advice to my younger self, I don't know that I ever faltered too much in these cases, but there were times I lost focus, and maybe you’ve had your leaders, family, or other trusted people who can really get you back on focus. Whatever that focus needs to be. If I gave myself better advice, it'd be, make sure you understand what your focus and your goals are. You can review them a little more often, right? Because if you only look at them every once in a while, you may forget what you're actually trying to achieve. Easy answer is that’s a focus sign, right? Sharon Yeah, very good. I like it. I like it a lot, actually. Focus, yes. I'm just going to do some rapid-fire questions now, because we’re at 40 minutes. What's your go-to leadership book or resources that you recommend? Gary Yeah, okay, how about It's Your Ship by Michael Abrashoff. Sharon I have not read that. Gary Well, I tell you what… It's the only book I read, so I had to put it here. Sharon So funny. It's Your Ship. I love to read. Gary And to collaborate on that, he is a ship captain in the US Navy. He was turned over a big aircraft carrier. There are 5,700 people on an aircraft carrier. It had the worst engagement. Entrepreneurs need to find out about engagement, and how to organize their people. This guy spoke to us as a group of ATB managers at the time, and I was in Provost when I got his book, and I did read his book, but he was a phenomenal speaker. It's a bit of an older book, but it's a really cool book, and it has everything to do with employee engagement, how to recognize your employees, how to make someone feel like they want to be recognized. Sharon, to your point, how you might recognize people, he pointed out that he had chats with people, and they might have said, I don't like to be publicly recognized. So, he understood that. You need to know how your employees want it. I learned a lot from that book. The one book I read was valuable. Sharon Very good. I'm gonna look and see… I drive a lot. So I like audiobooks. When I say I read, yes, I read, but I listen. I listen to a lot of books, for sure, I love it. Thank you. So It's Your Ship. One thing you talk about, your employees and how they might not want to be recognized. I know there are different ways of checking, so we do a DISC profile, and I think there are different profiles. It's astounding how, in our business, all the different personality traits and how to interact with them. I have a high D, strong D. She's not going to put a smiley face on her text message, and she's not going to sugarcoat anything. She's just going to go right to the kill. If she's giving you a message, because we have a group chat, WhatsApp, right? Another person who expects the smiley faces and does a smiley face might think that she's mad or upset, but she's not. She's just getting to the point, because she's a high D, she's on a mission. It's so funny how to get these all to collaborate together and understand the different personalities. It's a lot, but it's really interesting. My take is if you have six or more employees, I would suggest doing those profiles, because they are remarkable and very eye-opening, for sure. Okay, how do you recharge outside of work, Gary? Gary Oh, I love working with wood, and I know I don't do it often enough, but I love building things that way. In the summertime, it's heading off camping. Sharon Seasonal or trailer? Gary Yeah, we have a trailer we tow, and we just go place to place. We go for a good couple of weeks every year, that's part of our main holiday. After that, it's getting together with some family and friends, wherever you need to be. Sharon Yeah, we have a trailer, and we like to pull it to go to different places instead of the same place. I love camping too. Okay, if you could sum up your career in one word, tell us, Gary, what's that one word? Gary The best one I could think of is amazing. Sharon Amazing. Thirty years of amazement. Amazing, yes. Gary And I'm gonna say, of course, like every 30 years, has every single day been amazing? No, but for the balance of those 30 years, the career and what I'm continuing to build is still amazing. Sharon ATB is lucky to have you, and I think that “water your grass” really stood out to me. That's one of my key takeaways today, even as an entrepreneur, you have to water your grass on your side, and sometimes you have to step up and water their grass, but they can water their own grass, sometimes, too. They can water their own grass, but they're lucky to have you, because you recognize that, and you know it's important to do that, and I think that's why the 30 years, and why you guys have grown and excelled together. So, thank you. I just want to say thank you for sharing your experience and insights. That was huge for me, and your journey. It's not every day we get to learn from someone with 30 years of lived experience in leadership and loyalty, so thank you very, very much. Gary Thank you, Sharon, for having me. It is delightful, and I'm so glad we got a chance to connect. Sharon We hope we help somebody, Gary. I hope we help somebody. To our listeners out there today, if you'd like to connect with Gary or learn more about ATB, we'll have the links in the show notes. As always, don't forget to like, subscribe and share this episode with someone who needs to hear it. If you have a strong story or an experience that you feel could be beneficial to any of the entrepreneurs out there, I'd love to feature you on the podcast. Until next time, keep building your success, one step, one story, one lesson at a time. Thank you, everybody.