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The Book of Revelations · Walk Talk: Faith in Motion

• Randy: Alright, so here's the cold opener before the little intro. Alright, so the Book of Revelation is probably one of the most misunderstood books in the Bible. And for a lot of Christians, when they hear Revelation, they immediately think about the end times, the Antichrist, the Mark of the Beast, the Tribulation, Armageddon, timelines, all sorts of things. And people are always trying to figure out what's going to happen. And Christians have debated those questions for a very long time. Pre-trib, post-trib. ⁓ Premillennial, amillennial, there are all kinds of different interpretations, but that's not really what I want to talk about today. Today, I don't want to give you my thoughts on a date for the end of the world. ⁓ I'm definitely not going to try to settle every argument surrounding the end times. I think that we could miss a much larger story that's being told when we focus on revelations in terms of just the end times. Because this is ultimately a story about redemption, but it's also about reclamation. God reclaiming the nations, God confronting the rebellious spir spirits, God defeating death, God restoring creation, God restoring humanity to the role that He intended for us. From the beginning. And so before we can try to understand how the story ends, we need to remember what happened at the beginning. Because it's not just telling us how the world ends, it's showing us how God ultimately sets the world right. And that's where the intro comes in. Pj Verdin: Good deal. Randy: Alright, so now before we jump into Revelation, I wanna establish a few things about what we're doing here today. So first, I want to be very, very clear that I'm not pretending that I have revelations completely figured out. There are scholars who have studied this book their entire lives and they still disagree with each other. So throughout this episode, I'm going to ask a lot of questions, and some of the framework I'm using come from scholars and particularly the work of Dr. Michael Heiser, who we've talked about in the past, and what he calls the Deuteronomy 32 worldview. But I'm also going to share some of my own thoughts and get into some discussion. ⁓ and there's gonna be some speculation as well and some connections that I have personally found interesting. And when I do that, I want I want to distinguish between this is what the text says, this is what Heiser has argued, and then here's some things that I'm personally wondering about. I'm not trying to establish a new doctrine. I'm trying to pull on some threads and ask whether they might help us see the biblical story a little bit differently. Because there is something very important about the title of the book that we sometimes overlook. It's called revelations. It's the revelations of Jesus Christ. It isn't the revelation of the Antichrist. It isn't called the revelation of the tribulation. It isn't called the revelation of the end of the world. It's an unveiling of Jesus Christ, who he is, what authority he possesses, what he has accomplished through his death and resurrection, and what is happening in the unseen realm. And what he ultimately will accomplish throughout creation. And I think that this changes the way that we should approach the book. Because Revelation is not simply it's not simply about a story about a catastrophe. It's a story about reclamation. God is taking back what has been corrupted. Yes, he is redeeming a sinful humanity. Absolutely. And the biblical story is bigger. It's bigger than simply just saving individuals from their sin. God is reclaiming the nations. He is judging rebellious spiritual powers. He's defeating death. He is restoring creation. And he's reversing the consequences of the rebellions that fractured his original design. It's God's story. It's his creation, it's his kingdom, it's his purpose, it's his son, it's his victory. Now, that doesn't mean that humanity isn't important. Far from it. Human beings have an incredible, important role in this story. We were created in the image of God. We were commissioned to represent him. We were given dominion. We were created to rule creation under his authority. So we're not background characters by any means, but we're also not the center. God's at the center. And I think if we approach scripture entirely through a man-centered lens, which unfortunately is something that I think happens a lot, then we're always going to struggle to understand what God is doing. And I certainly don't think that we'll ever understand everything. But if we're going to get anywhere close, then I think we have to begin with a God-centered view. So before we get into Revelations, let's just quickly remember the three major rebellions. And these are the rebellions that set up the entire story. So the first rebellion was Aneden. This was humanity. being created in God's image to image him, to reflect him, to represent him, to rule under him. And the intention is clear. Right? So he so he he created this sacred space that is supposed to expand throughout the world. He created Eden. He put us in Eden and He wanted Eden to expand across the world with us taking dominion of the earth and bearing His image everywhere he would rule through us. And then comes this rebellion. The serpent opposes God and purposes. The serpent opposes God's purposes and humanity joins that rebellion. The result is exile. Humanity is driven out from God's immediate presence. Death enters the human story. And that's the first major break. Now, I want to make a note here that there's something a lot of us grew up hearing. Many Christians were taught that Satan rebelled before creation and convinced a third of the angels to follow him and was immediately cast out of heaven. This is a very, very common story. But if we look closely at the biblical text, it's not it's not actually saying that. ⁓ there's more of a theological tradition, it's more of a tradition that's built from later interpretations. And Heiser, for example, would say that the idea of Satan falling before creation isn't explicit in the scriptures. So that's something to think about. The second rebellion is in Genesis six, where the sons of God take human women for wives. And the result we've talked about it before, it's the Nephilim. And this transgression of boundaries that God had established resulted in the flood. And the flood narrative follows, and it's often read as God's judgment on human wickedness alone, but there's also this deeper corruption that has spread. And it's God actually dealing with yes, humanity's wickedness, but also getting rid of this this you know the this these beings, these Nephilim. And then from there, we have the third rebellion. And that happens at Babel. Humanity is trying to build its way to heaven to make a name for itself. God wanted humanity to Spread out and and fulfill fulfill the original plan, right? To spread out across the world and bear his image and take dominion over the world. But humanity said, No, we're not gonna do this in God's name. We're gonna stay here and build up a name for ourselves. So God responded by confusing their languages and disinheriting the nations. This is when we start to see that this is where God said, You know what? I'm going to give you up to these other Elohim, these lesser beings. I'm going to disinfect. Disinherit you and eventually create my own nation that could fulfill my purpose. And so he assigned them to these other spiritual beings. And in Haiser's work, we really it really leans deeply into Deuteronomy 32 for this. And from that point on, the biblical story becomes in part about how God is going to reclaim those nations, but then there's this bigger question that comes: what will God do about all this? And that brings us into the New Testament where Jesus comes not only to deal with individual sin, but to defeat the powers behind the corruption. Colossians talks about disarming rulers and authorities and triumphing over them through the cross. And the Great Commission is essentially about reclaiming those nations. So when we get to Revelations, we're not suddenly in a new story. Right? We're watching the resol the resolution of a very old story. Before we get into the detail, here's how I want to walk through the rest of the book. First we're going to talk about how Revelation opens. With Jesus revealed in glory and the message to the churches, then we'll move on through the major sections: the throne room, the seals, the trumpets, the dragons, the beasts, the bulls, etcetera, and how they all connect back to this one bigger story. And as we do that, we're going to keep going to the lens, we're going to keep going through with this lens in mind. That this is all part of God's story. And these three different rebellions. The third one being essentially the rebellion of Babel that eventually leads to this kingdom, this earthly kingdom of Babylon. Right? So the Eden Rebellion was the first one. The second rebellion was the watchers that created the Nephilim. And then the third rebellion starts at Babylon, where God's trying to create his kingdom and establish his authority over the world through humanity. Right? But through that third rebellion, not only do we see this, you know, Tower of Babel and this whole situation, but what we actually see is the foundation of Babylon, the kingdom of the world. And Babylon comes up over and over again throughout the scriptures, and eventually in Revelations, we see Babylon fall. So that's the lens we're gonna look at this through. We're gonna look at Revelations not as something that's all in the future, something that's going to be happening, or maybe is happening right now, but we're gonna look at it through the lens of God's plan for humanity to rule his kingdom on earth through humans. but also having to deal with these rebellions, the consequences of these rebellions, and then restoring, starting at the cross, restoring the earth and the world and and and humanity to his original plan. So now let's get into Revelations. So quick summary of the book of Revelations, and then we're going to get into some discussion here. So for anyone who's not familiar with Revelations, either you've never read through the book, completely or you read through it and you don't understand it, it's very hard to understand. I don't claim to understand everything, but I do understand that there is a little bit of a structure to it. So I'm gonna kinda go through that structure. And I want you to keep in mind too that as we're going through this Some of these things may be referring to events that happened a long time ago. ⁓ they might have been things that were happening in the first century, they might be things that are happening now, they might be things that are happening in the future. But Revelations Pj Verdin: Yeah, so c can I just say this real quick to to that point before you you kinda get started. It is a lot to unpack. But a lot of people think about whenever you get to Revelation thinking that this is strictly things that are to come. And and I I don't there's a lot that I do not understand about revelations, but what I do from what I do understand, I believe that Revelations is not strictly talking about things that are to come. I believe that that that Revelations, what John is doing in Revelations is addressing the past, meaning before him, the present, meaning what's going on in the church age that he's writing these letters to these churches in, as well as the future that's gonna come that pertains more to us in in the end times. Is that a fair assessment or understanding? Randy: Yeah, absolutely. So let me get into the outline of it and that's exactly right. Because what you see is Revelations one to three, this is basically a letters to the churches. This is the letters to the seven churches. And it's interesting that these letters are actually addressed to the angels of the seven churches. But essentially what's happening in the first three chapters is, you know, it begins with Jesus addressing seven real churches that actually existed. He encourages some, he rebukes others, he warns some of ⁓ calls them to repentance, etcetera. And it matters because before Revelation shows us dragons or beasts or cosmic judgment or Babylon or Armageddon or anything, it's Jesus dealing with his own people. The cosmic battle is not disconnected from ordinary people. And and that's the connection that we need to make is that there is this spiritual battle that's happening. It's going on. But it's not disconnected from us. In Revelation's Four and five, we get the throne and the scroll. And we talked a little bit about this scene previously. John is brought up to the heavenly throne room, God is enthroned there, heavenly beings surround him, the elders worship him, the scroll is introduced, no one initially is found worthy to open it until Jesus appears as the slain lamb, and the lamb is worthy. And this matters because this is one of the clearest places in Revelation where the divine counsel worldview becomes visible. From an earthly perspective, history can look chaotic, but behind the curtain, the throne is occupied. Jesus taking the scroll is this massive statement about his authority. The crucified and resurrected Jesus is the one that's authorized to move God's purposes forward. Thoughts so far, brother? Pj Verdin: Yeah, I mean it's it it's a lot, man. It it it is and and I mean there's there's some vivid imagery in there, you know what I mean? ⁓ that that we can we can kind of ⁓ get into and ⁓ unpack in in more detail later. I'm I'm just I'm I'm I'm enjoying kind of getting an overview and ⁓ we'll we'll we'll circle back. Randy: Awesome. Alright, so then Revelation 6 and 8, there's the seals. So the land begins opening the seals. The horsemen appear. There's conquest. There's war. There's famine. There's death. The martyrs crowd for justice. Creation itself is shaken. Then there's this interlude showing that God's servants are being marked and identified as belonging to him. This is the authority Jesus received in chapters four and five that's now actually being exercised. The Lamb is not merely just being worshipped. He acts. And judgment begins moving through creation. Restoration requires confronting what corrupted creation. If God is going to reclaim reclaim the world, evil cannot simply be ignored. And my thoughts here are You know, we know that God is a God of love, but he's also a God of justice. And that's why the cross. Why the cross? Why did we need the sacrifice? Because we have sin that requires justice. But because God is a God of love, he dealt with it himself personally. Now we're seeing a bigger form of justice. We're seeing judgment being poured out on the world and the world system. Why? Not to destroy the world any more than God wanted to destroy us, but to redeem and reclaim the world. And to start that restoration process. So in 6 through 8, we got the seals. 8 through 11, we got the trumpets. So then the trumpets start blasting. And the trumpets, they they intensify the pattern. They start to bring about these plagues that resemble the plagues we've seen in Exodus. The abyss is open, and the supernatural dimension becomes increasingly obvious, and humanity ⁓ repeatedly refuses to repent. John receives another prophetic commission. The two witnesses testify, they suffer, they die and are vindicated. Then the seventh trumpet sounds and heaven announces the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and his Christ. Wow. This is an enormous reclamation statement. The kingdom of the world is becoming the kingdom of God and his Messiah. This is the nations being reclaimed. Then you got 12 through 14 where you have the dragon and the beast. And in chapter 12 gives us the woman, the child, the dragon, the war in heaven, Michael and his angels, and the dragon being cast down. This the dragon is explicitly identified with the ancient serpent, the devil, and Satan. Chapter 13 introduces the beast, and 14 brings the focus back to the lamb, and certainly to God's and the certainty of God's judgment. Revelations explicitly identifies the enemy with the serpent from Genesis and the story has come full circle. And this being associated with the original rebellion is now being exposed and judged. And I think most people we talked about this before previously, most people agree that this is basically talking about the birth of the Messiah. So right in the middle of Revelations, literally the dead sinner, chapters twelve through fourteen, we have this story about the Messiah being born. You know, scholars agree that the woman is Israel and the baby being born is the Messiah. It's Jesus. So again, the timeline, the timing of things, this is happening dead sinner. Then Satan's cast down. Yep. Pj Verdin: Yeah. Yeah. Randy: Then we got the bowls, they come about in Revelations 15 and 16. This is the third judgment. So think about this. There were three rebellions, then we see three forms of judgment. We saw we saw the seals, we saw the trumpets, now we see the bowls. Coincidence? I think not. So we got this cycle, right? And the bowls represent this climatic outpouring of divine judgment. And again, a lot of it ecu echoes what we read about in Exodus. And this rebellious world refuses God's rule, even as judgment is reaching its culmination. The reclamation project is now reaching a decisive stage. God is not merely rescuing his people from evil, he's dealing with evil himself itself. The corrupt structure standing against God king God's kingdom is ultimately being judged. Then we can move on to 17 and 18. In Revelation 17 and 18, Babylon falls. Babylon, that third rebellion starting at Babel, becoming this kingdom of the world, the world system, representing everything anti-God, the antithesis of God in his kingdom, Babylon finally falls. After the third set of judgments. So Babylon takes center stage because it represents Humanity's rebellious world order, the political power, the economic exploitation, idolatry, violence, luxury, corruption, everything in opposition to God is represented in Babylon and it finally falls. This is Babylon reaching its final form and receiving its final judgment. At Babel, humanity essentially said, We're going to build our own kingdom. We will make a great name for ourselves. We will resist God's mandate. But Revelation shows that counterfeit kingdom collapsing. Then we get to Revelation 19: the return of the king. Jesus appears as a conquering king. The lamb who was slaughtered now appears as the victorious rider. The beast and the false prophet are defeated, and the rebellious kingdom encounters the rightful king. This is the public unveiling of what Revelation has been telling us from the beginning that Jesus is Lord. He's not merely a teacher, he's not merely a sacrifice or the founder of Christianity. He is the rightful king of creation. Revelation 20, this is Satan's final defeat. Revelation 20 brings us to the millennium. Satan's imprisoned, and then he gets released for his final rebellion, his ultimate defeat, and the great white throne judgment. And this is a place where Christians disagree a lot on exactly how the millennium should be interpreted. And this is not something I have, you know, any intent on trying to settle here today. but the larger storyline is very clear. The serpent loses, the adversary who appears. Near the beginning of the biblical story, he reaches his end. Evil is not merely contained or weakened, it is ultimately defeated. And then even death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire. And in Revelations 21 and 22, we see Eden restored. Everything comes together. There's a new heaven and a new earth, a new Jerusalem. And some people, you know, believe that the old earth literally passes away and is destroyed. And the old heaven is literally passes away and is destroyed. But other interpretations I've heard of the words that are used to describe these passages are similar words to what's used for Christians when we are being redeemed. And so there's there's the disagreement there as to whether the earth is actually being renewed or replaced. Again, not something we're gonna solve here today, but it's worth thinking about. ⁓ but we get this new dwelling for humanity. There's no more death, there's no more mourning, no more curse. And this is, you know, the the tree of life is restored, the nations are present, God, God's servants get to see his face, and humanity is reigning with him like he intended in the beginning in Eden. And this isn't primarily a story about humanity escaping earth, it's about God restoring creation. Genesis and Revelation become bookends. Genesis begins with God dwelling with humanity, sacred space, tree of life, human image bearers commissioned the rule. Revelations ends with God dwelling with humanity, sacred space encompassing creation, the tree of life restored, death eliminated, curse removed, and humanity reigning with God. So, whose story is this? So we often interpret scripture. As though humanity is at the center of everything. God created everything for me. Jesus died for me. God wants to bless me. Heaven is waiting for me. And yes, God loves humanity. The gospel absolutely includes personal salvation, but this entire story is not happening for me. It's not happening for you. This is God's story. It's happening according to his purpose. His creation reclaimed, his kingdom being established, his enemies being defeated, his justice. being demonstrated, his son being revealed, and his name being glorified. Whew. We're not irrelevant, far from it. Human beings have an extraordinary role, but we're just not the sinner. This is the revelation of Jesus Christ. The revelation of Jesus Christ. So that's a lot. That's a lot. ⁓ if I have to boil it down to just four main things and then we're gonna get we're gonna get into it. First, Revelation is not mainly a book about trying to predict the end of the world. It is the revelation of Jesus Christ, who he is, what authority he has, what he has accomplished, and how how his victory ultimately plays out. Second, the story of Revelation makes way more sense when we remember the larger biblical story behind it from Eden, Genesis 6, Babel, etc., because those rebellions brought corruption into humanity, the spiritual realm, and the nations, and revelation shows God bringing all of that rebellion. It to an end. Third, salvation is bigger than just forgiveness of individual sin. That is absolutely part of it. No doubt about it. But the larger story is about reclamation. God is reclaiming nations, confronting rebellious spiritual powers, defeating death, restoring creation, restoring humanity to the role that He intended for us from the beginning. Fourth, I don't think we should assume revelation is simply a straight chronological timeline. We're going to get into that a lot. John is being shown heaven reality. Some of what he sees may reveal things that have already been accomplished in heaven, even though they have not been fully manifested on earth. And then a couple more things, and I think I said four, but a couple more things. ⁓ It's especially important when we get into Revelation twelve, and I think we should at least seriously consider the possibility that Sat Satan being cast down is connected to the victory of Jesus on the cross and his all exaltation rather than assuming that that happened before creation. And then lastly, the whole thing begins where where the Bible began. I mean the whole thing ends where the Bible began. Eden being restored, the tree of life returns, the curse is gone, death is defeated, God dwelling with humanity. It's a full circle. We start it With the plan of God for the very beginning before the rebellions, and then we end with everything being restored and God's plan being brought back full circle to what he intended in the first place, with all the sin and all the corruption and all the rebellion having been dealt with. And at the end of the day it's his story, his kingdom, his victory, and somehow by his grace, he has given us an important role in it. So I know that's a lot. I had to get that off my chest. I feel like I've been preparing for this podcast my entire life. Literally, because I remember mom reading us the book of Revelations as little small children. I could before I could even read. I remember mom reading us the book of Revelation. So I literally feel like I've been preparing for this one my whole life, even though I don't claim to understand it. I at least see the patterns. I at least see the outline and at least have some kind comprehension of the way it's structured and what's happening even though I don't claim to know the exact timeline or the exact meaning of a lot of what's in it. So that's a lot. That's an overview. Let's get into this. Pj Verdin: Yeah. Wow. Yeah, man. I mean that that's ⁓ that's a lot to to chew on, a lot to try to digest. But I mean, you know, the the Book of Revelations, man, is is one of those those those really tricky books, man. And and you know it was another one of those things, like I said ⁓ before, that you know, you we we think about these things we you know A lot of times before you you actually read the Bible, you think about it just like any other book, you know? Start, finish, you know, very, very linear, like, you know, we're just always moving in in this direction. And and you you don't you don't really see that. And and if you do read the Bible like that, I think you're missing out on a on a lot of context and a lot of a a lot of of the you can almost kinda see that the way God's structured things, like so many things Randy: Right. Pj Verdin: You know, you there they have those maps where they show how things just overlap, right? Like how it's just beautifully constructed by the hand of God. And the book of Revelation is no different, man. That's you know, the first time I I read it, I was like, Man, I have no idea what I just read. I don't know what's going on here. I came with this preconceived notion that I was gonna understand what is coming by reading the book of Revelation. You know, what what we have to look forward to. And I got some of that, but I also got confusion because I was thinking that it was one, you know, ⁓ constant story. And then whenever I got to to parts of the Bible where like I guess maybe maybe the Holy Spirit was was trying to to help, you know, guide me through some things. Like kind of like I think I believe you you mentioned it in the middle. You kind of get this story of Mary and and Jesus. And I'm like, wait a minute. Like, I know that that's not gonna happen again. So what's what is going on here? You know, and then the the confusion kind of sets in. So yeah, man, it it is you know, and and I heard, I can't remember who it was, but I heard somebody say, You ⁓ you have to read the Bible in three different parts. And and and honestly, if nothing else, because there are a bunch of different people who agree what necessarily those three parts are. There is a ton of people who agree that it's at least broken down into three parts in in different ways. So, you know, some people will will clump different chapters together and say, hey, this encompasses this part. You know, and so there there's some variation there. But I I I think what I'm what I've seen more often than not is a pretty common ⁓ agreement that it's not just a a ⁓ you know, start to finish story of what what is to come. It's not all future ⁓ prophecy. Randy: Right. Yeah, I mean it i it it is a mix, man, and you know, the whole time thing, right, it's something that just You know, we can't really comprehend eternity. We can't at we can't comprehend infinite, right? We can't we there's it's just too too big for us to understand. But we know that God is outside of time and outside of space. And we've all heard, you know, you know, the Bible says that, you know, a day for the Lord is like a thousand years, right? And people interpret that all sorts of ways. They use statements like that to to to to talk about like, okay, well maybe creation. creation it wasn't actually seven days but seven thousand years and all these different things. But you have you ever seen that movie Inception? So so I love that movie Inception and I and I think it's a great analogy because in that movie, you know, they travel to a planet that's near a black hole and like every like eight seconds that passes on that planet is like a year on Earth. And so like I bring that up because Einstein proved that you know time itself is relative. Pj Verdin: Yes. Randy: And if time is relative based on the speed that you're moving and on the you know, the amount of mass, ⁓ you know That you have or that you're near, ⁓ then at least we have some scientific basis to to realize that hey, like, you know, the Bible's not just making stuff up. Time does move differently from God's perspective than from our perspective. So yeah, when we read through some of these things, there might be some overlap, there might be some back and forth, there might be things that, you know, have already happened or are are not happened, and you have this whole already not yet concept. What does that mean? Already not yet. Well, maybe from the heavenly perspective it's already happened, but from the earthly. it's not yet or vice versa. I I say all that just to say that like time is is is funny. It's something we experience in a certain way, but when we are reading the Word of God, we can't just assume that time is being revealed to us in the story in the word in the same way we experience it. ⁓ I think there's definitely some cases where it it does, right? I mean, I think there are some stories that are pretty cut and dry and we see the chronological events. But then there's there's there's books like the Book of Revelation where we're going back and forth between the the physical world and the spiritual realm. And now you can't just assume things are chronological. In fact you could pretty much assume the opposite, that they're not. Pj Verdin: Right, right. A and that i it's as wild as it sounds as that does make it less confusing. You know what I mean? ⁓ Randy: The way it make this make it less confusing by making it more confusing. Pj Verdin: Yeah, right, right, right. So, you know, one of the things that I I did notice was kind of like a a recurring theme, ⁓ was and and I believe it was intentional by John. ⁓ Well, ⁓ well, I guess not by John because he's receiving this revelation from from God. But like, you know, the the sevens, right? Sevens everywhere. So, ⁓ and and and you know, we know from from scripture that seven typically represents completion. So I mean, definitely fitting, right, for for what is ultimately gonna be like you you put it earlier, the completion of everything. Jesus, you know Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: reestablishing the co the the the the actual finish work of of everything, getting back to to his intended plan and design. So I but I I did see that, you know, you got your seven trumpets and seven seals, seven bowls, ⁓ seven signs, all all the things. So I I thought that that was kind of a an interesting thing. Randy: Well, and and it and you're right, it i it is the number of completion and what are we completing? We're completing the judgment, right? ⁓ we're completing the judgment and I again I I don't think it's a coincidence that there were three rebellions and three separate levels of judgment, and by the way, each one has seven pieces to it, so it's like here's a seventh, bam, your judgment's complete. Here's the next seventh, bam, your judgment's complete. And then when you get to the third judgment and the final bowl, and now the third judgment is complete, babble Pj Verdin: Every yeah. Right. Randy: Falls, it's like what? I never I never read this before I started studying the work of Michael Heiser and this whole Deuteronomy 32, you know, worldview. Man, I never made that connection between like these are judgments and then ultimately Babylon falls. Pj Verdin: Well Well and and then, you know, again with the the the s ⁓ symbolism with with these these numbers, you know, you got seven and being the number of completion and you're you you're mentioning the the the three of rebellions and the three judgments. What about the the I guess what what you call ⁓ the three resolutions. You got New Jerusalem, the new temple, and New Eden. You know what I mean? Like there there's another, you know, threes. Like, you know, so like I and I I love I love Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: those little things like you know, you you you kind of see that in a lot of places throughout scripture, like those little nuggets of consistency with with just, you know, things mirroring ⁓ a a ⁓ action and a reaction. You know what I mean? Like it's ⁓ it's it's ⁓ it's it a hundred percent. Yeah, it's like i if it's broken this way, it gets fixed this way. You know what I mean? Like Jesus was the the greater, you know, whatever biblical feather figure, the greater Moses, the greater, you know, Joseph, the greater like just all these things. And and and and kind of like how we've talked about before, that the things that he was undoing, ⁓ like even in in in ⁓ the wilderness, you know what I mean? Things that were left, you know, undone previously. Like it's just it's just so cool to like just see these parallels across where it's like very intentional. It's not it's almost poetic, honestly. That's the way I look at it. It's very, it's very like poetic to me. You know what mean? ⁓ very purposeful and intentful. And ⁓ I I just like it. It's like, you know, it's it's just it's awesome. And and I guess maybe that's kind of the way my my brain works. Like I remember, ⁓ like whenever I used to write music, it was like trying to put together this puzzle, right? Like fit all these pieces where they go and and have like the these all these little underlining, you know, that's like you got surface level, then you got like Randy: ⁓ yeah. Pj Verdin: three levels deep you're still kind of connecting the dots and trying to be ⁓ thoughtful and and and clever and and I see like those things in in the word of God and I just I just love it, man. Those are some of my favorite things. Randy: Yeah, you and me both, man, I I feel the same way. I I love a good puzzle. and I don't always I'm not always the greatest at at solving them, but ⁓ I'm always very intrigued at the solutions to them, especially when they're very simple solutions to very complex problems. It's ⁓ it's just so satisfying. And go ahead. Pj Verdin: Well, a hundred per no, I I I'm sorry to cut you off, but but the the thing about it is is you know, I think this is ingrained in us. Like I remember you and I like watching Indiana Jones, right? Like we didn't have to have the knowledge, but it was so fun to watch him. It's like the same thing with this Michael Heisner. You're like, ⁓ wow, there's somebody who's more qualified than me who's putting the pieces together who I can watch and I still enjoy the journey. Like I'm just along for the ride, you know what I mean? And I I love that. Randy: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, so do I. And and the more I study, the more I listen, more I read, and you know, guys have written a few books and they're all pretty dense books, so it's gonna take me a while to get through all of ⁓ I've only gone through the first one so far. And it's just like, man, it just everything just makes so much sense. He's done a great job of putting all the pieces together and, you know, illustrating how, you know, it's connected throughout the entire, you know, Bible and and going be going beyond the Bible and and, you know, Jewish tradition and and other extra biblical books that have a lot of th th you know, ⁓ what's the right word, authority, even though they might not be inspired word, they're still, you know, books that we should, you know, take seriously. And he connects it all and shows you the common threads. And ⁓ yeah, I'm just I'm I'm I'm like you. I'm along for the ride. I'm enjoying the ride. And ⁓ I will say though, you know, I'm I know that there's probably a lot of people who are gonna have questions. I know myself I've had questions. ⁓ you know one of the things that I thought about that other people might think about is When I when I read some of these passages, like you know, Jesus saying all authority in heaven has been given to me. Like I remember the first time I read that, and I and I was like, Wait a second, isn't Jesus God? How has this been being given to him? And who's it being given from? You know what I'm saying? Like, and and and then I hear, you know, this theory of how there was this divine council, and God basically divided up the nations amongst them and gave them authority to rule, and he's Jesus is reclaiming it, and it's like, ⁓ okay, well then. Now that statement makes so much more sense to me. Yeah, a little bit more beat on those bones, exactly. Pj Verdin: Yeah, there there there's a little bit more meat on them bones, you know. Well and and I would I would just I'd add this, man. You know, ⁓ I you know I I I definitely I I I agree with a lot of what I've heard from this Michael Heisner and and you know I definitely respect his opinion, even in places where I I I might not see it the same way. But I think overall what I what I love and what resonates with me the most, man, is here you have a guy who loves the word of God so much that he's dedicated his life to like studying this thing deep. You know what I mean? Like he wasn't he he didn't just you know, you we we we've talked multiple times about people who won't even read their Bible. And this dude is like, you know what, I've read this Bible, but I just I I want more. I want more. And if nothing else, man, you gotta respect that kind of hunger for God's word and and that respect and that reverence for For wanting to know the truth and wanting to seek him and wanting to just get deep. Like, I don't, I don't care how you view it. You know what I mean? You, you, I feel like you, you, you gotta give respect where it's due. And for somebody to dedicate, I mean, for him to be where he's at, he's not just like a casual, like, ⁓ you know, I'm just in in my spare time. No, like this dude is literally dedicating his his life to better understanding this word. And I I mean, I I I commend that. Randy: Yeah. Well it And it's helping and it's helping us to have a better understanding. So so, you know, I I again I disclaimer, not a pastor, not a priest, not a theologian. I feel like I still have a ton to learn about the book of Revelation, especially, but I feel like I know I I I I know it so much better than I did before, just because now I see the structure to it as I just laid laid it out, and now I see how it fits into the bigger picture. Now I understand that it's not all happen happening in this future linear Pj Verdin: Absolutely. Randy: Since where okay, I now I gotta figure out which which bowl, you know, based on what's on the news today, which bowl is being poured out or what trumpet is being blown. No man, like these things are happening in the spiritual realm. Then for all I know, they might have already all happened, and we're in the last second of eternity, you know, from God's perspective, and that might take years to play out. I don't know. I I have no idea. All I know is that you know, John is pulling back the veil, and he's telling us what's going on in in the spirit. realm and so I don't need to understand how everything that's happening in the spiritual realm ties exactly to you know what I see in the news every day or what I might feel whenever I you know I don't know when I'm living my life every day or you know everyone has believed that they're in the end that they're living in the end times but I do feel like I have a much better understanding than what I did before even if that understanding tells me what I don't understand. Pj Verdin: Yeah. Right. Well, and then you know, we've seen a lot of times and there's been examples, you know, throughout history where people have misinterpreted the signs of the times and then in some in some ways they kinda lose some credibility. So I you know, I I would say definitely be aware, you know, as aware as you can be, you know, we we we know enough about the signs of the times to kinda know that that it does seem like the clock is winding down. And we might be very well in the fourth quarter. You know what I mean? ⁓ and so I think the most important thing to do is just be prepared and be, you know, be aware and be prepared. And and and and yeah, we're not pastors, we're not priests, but you know, to a certain degree, like we're talking about this this commission. We're evangelists or you know, or at least we should be. We should be spreading this word, this gospel. And and and especially with a higher sense of urgency, seeing the signs of the times right now. But what people like Michael Heisner or anybody else who's willing to dedicate so much of their time and effort and and kind of help try to help explain and and put like I said a little while ago, some of that meat on the bones, all that's doing is helping me whenever I spread this word of God and somebody asks me a question like, ⁓ well what about this? 'Cause I'm lost here. I I I have a little bit better understanding and perspective to where I can say, Okay, well listen, I don't know for sure. But according to, you know, scholars, people a lot smarter than me, who've kind of explained this, this is how it makes sense to me. Maybe it'll make sense to you that way. You know, I would again, like I always say, get in your word, look at it for yourself, pray about it, work that out between you and God. But this is how I understand it. But ⁓ but yeah, definitely it I just feel like it helps equipped us for what we're commissioned to do, especially in a time like right now. Randy: Right. Right. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I and I agree and I and I think that we've talked about this before again, you know, there's gonna be signs that we're in the season and I think, you know, we definitely feel like we are in the season. Where exactly are we? Does it even matter? It's like no, we we just gotta be prepared for the end, because ultimately our end could be in any second, right? Our end could be today, our end could be tomorrow, and you know that final restoration is what we're what we're what we're hoping for. You know, it's the ⁓ right now but not yet. So we are we need we're called to live as if we are in the kingdom now, even though the kingdom has not fully manifested itself yet. But it will. It it it will, and every day we get closer to the that and so y yeah, go ahead. Pj Verdin: No, I I I'm sorry for cutting you off. ⁓ man, one thing that I see, especially whenever you kind of start talking about this, people kind of want to know, ⁓ like, ⁓ well, when do you think it's gonna happen? Like they're they're like, okay, look, if you tell me it's gonna happen in 2030, then I'll start getting my life together in 2029. But they have this mentality, like, we're promised tomorrow. We're not, bro. You know what I mean? I can I can die in traffic going to to the store after we we get off this podcast. Well, I'm not promised tomorrow. I don't care if I have plans. Randy: Yeah. Right, right. No. Pj Verdin: We're not promised tomorrow. So like you said, man, we gotta we gotta stay prepared. You know what I mean? We gotta we we gotta stay in that constant mind frame of of eyes eyes locked on the king. Randy: Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent, man, a hundred percent. And, you know, let me just say this too. So, you know, one of the other things that I was thinking about if I'm if I'm if I'm thinking about, you know, putting my skeptical hat on and I'm thinking, Okay, well, you know, first of all, why would Jesus be, you know given authority, right? What how does that make sense? And and the more I study, you know, the work of Hiser, the more it does make sense to me and in, you know, ways that I never even contemplated before. But then I you could also think, well, why go through all this, right? Why is God, you know, why did why did God give up the nations in the first place? Why was that something he wanted to do? Why did he want to basically, you know, give humanity over to rule by these other lesser Elohim, by these principalities and powers, etc. ⁓ you know, I honestly do believe that God created us in his image, meaning, and people debate what his in what in his image means, but I I think what that really means is like, you know, at least one of the ways we're creating his image is to be, you know, bearers of his authority and to mark his dominion and his boundaries of his kingdom. And so that's why he keeps telling everyone over and over, spread a spread. across the world and and and and rule the earth because the more we spread out the more we take over the more you know we spread his authority right and so I think that when we refused to do that in the third rebellion he was basically like okay well you know you will you you're choosing to not be part of my kingdom I'm gonna let you guys be part of this other kingdom essentially we forfeited our right as human beings we forfeited our birthright to rule in you know in God's God's kingdom. And so I think that you know the whole drama being played out, it's a it's a little bit of a mystery, you know. No one can really understand the mind of God. ⁓ I talked before about like how I think God likes to, you know, he doesn't need anyone, but he likes to use us to to you know unfold for his plan to unfold and to to reveal himself, and in the same way, the only way we could get back that authority to rule was through Jesus doing what he did, and that's Why he was given all the authority. That's why we see it in Revelations. You know, when he finally completes the work on the cross, that's when Satan gets thrown out of heaven. That's when, you know, the the the third of the angels or you know, the third of the stars are wiped out of the sky. That's when we see all this stuff happening. Up until that point, you know, it you know, we we see like in the book of Job, Satan still has access to to the counsel of God. Yeah, he's got access to the throne room up until this point in Revelations, which seems to correlate with the finished. Pj Verdin: To the throne room. Yep. Yep. Randy: Work of the cross, then Jesus is resurrected, he's in heaven, and who knows? I mean, I think that you know, maybe that was part of what he was doing when he was quote unquote dead and in the grave. Was he was in the in the heavenly realm standing there, you know, taking his throne and in his rightful place as ruler, and Satan's being cast out in front of him, and then he's like resurrected back to earth the next day, and he has to show up and tell all his people, like, hey, you know, I can't really go into a lot of detail because you want Pj Verdin: Yeah. Randy: Understand it, but I'm gonna reveal it to you later. But hey, just know that all all dominion and authority has been given to me. And it's like God has chosen to do this in a way because we could never do it, right? We always talk about how we can never live a perfect life and we can never, you know, we can never gain salvation of our own works. In the same way, we can never reclaim that authority and that dominion that God had gave to humanity. God had to do it for us by becoming a human. And so He did it, and now we get. Pj Verdin: Well Randy: Yeah. ⁓ Pj Verdin: I I think you know, there there could be multiple things there, man, but like I mean ⁓ what what came to mind was how we talked about the revelation of the method. You know, I mean you you you figure you see that God has a plan from I mean, the very beginning. As soon as as the fall happened before, you know, the the punishment, before God deals out the punishment to Adam and Eve and gives them the bad news of what that is, he already sets in motion or tells the plan like this is this is how we're gonna get this back. So it it it's it's almost i who knows man what if what if giving the other nations to these people was just like you know a way of God basically not revealing his plan to the enemy because you figure Satan has has been around for since since the beginning as well man and and and he's you know trying to Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: to stop and and counterfeit every move that God makes. It's like playing chess, right? Not realize I mean he thinks he the devil obviously that's how he got himself in the position that he's in, was thinking that he could at all ever be an equal to God. So he's he's sitting here in this chess game and so God's saying, you know what, I'm gonna make sure that he's has no idea, you know, how this thing is gonna play out. And so yeah, there's gonna be these other these other nations, these other rulers God knew that he was gonna grap this in. God knew that that the message of Jesus was to include all people and not just Israel. Like so, you know what I mean? But God, I think, was being kind of ⁓ strategic. And and and I guess ⁓ along with that I wanna say my you you brought up that verse of la of like, ⁓ well now Jesus has all ⁓ authority and dominion over these people. ⁓ if I if I remember correctly, my initial thoughts reading that Randy: Yep. Pj Verdin: was kinda more along the lines of we know that Jesus descending and coming down from heaven into human form, he gave up, you know, a lot of his his, you know, author ⁓ you know, like he he lowered himself for our sake, right? So like whenever Randy: Right. Yeah, he he he he didn't have all the attributes of God when he was in his physical form. Pj Verdin: Right. Right. So I I I I I've I guess how I would reconcile that idea and and not to say that it doesn't still even fit in even more so with this this perspective of of like how Heisner puts it, but it's like, okay, now, you know, you've conquered death, hell, and the grave, y here you go. Everything that you everything that you gave up and then some, that's all you. That's all you. Randy: Yeah. Yeah. So so so when we're talking about the why, and I and I like how you said this. It's like, you know, I two things came to mind when you were talking about kind of the why, like why would God go this route and give up the kingdom, you know, the the nations to these lesser beings. Two things came to mind, right? So the first thing that came to mind to me was you know, when I first learned how to play racquetball. Right, when I first learned how to play racquetball And I don't know if you've ever played racquetball. Have you ever played racquetball? Are you any good at it? Pj Verdin: I'd probably beat you. No, I'm just kidding. It's been a while, man. I I'm talking about since like Family Worship Center days was the last time. I I probably the last time I played was with Hans. No lie. Randy: Y Yeah, so yeah, so okay, so when I was playing when I Hans is the person who taught me how to play. So when I was playing with Hans when he first taught me, I'm like, I'm pretty athletic, you know, I played one on one with this guy. Like I'm probably like right there with him. ⁓ let's go play. I'm I'm ha I'm happy to learn and you know, I think we played at like fifteen and he was like, Okay, well you know, we'll y we'll play to fifteen, but you start off with ten. And I was like, what? I start off with ten. Like, I'm gonna beat you then do you only gotta score f five points? He's like, No, no, you're not. And I'm like, wait a second, you're giving me a ten point I thought he was joking, it wasn't joking. And it's like, no, he was just so superior to me because it's so different than, you know, any other sport that you know, you gotta learn the angles, you gotta learn all these things that just come with playing, that even with a ten point lead, I couldn't beat him. Pj Verdin: Wow. Yeah. Randy: And it's like that was the first thing that came to mind when you were when you were talking about like, you know, why God would do this. It's like it's almost like he's giving himself a handicap. He's saying, like, hey guys, like, you know, you want to rebel? Well, let's take it to the extreme. How far can we take this thing? I'm just gonna give up everything. And I'm gonna let you guys just you're gonna be w what are what are your goals? Let me get you 99% of the way there. And I'm gonna start at zero. And just to show you that I am God, I'm gonna tie both hands. Pj Verdin: For more. Randy: Behind my back, and I'm gonna put a blindfold on, and I'm gonna do this the hardest way possible. I'm gonna become a physical human being, I'm gonna live a perfect life, I'm then going to die, then I'm gonna show you I'm God by resurrecting myself, I'm going to reclaim, you know. I mean, he didn't he didn't reveal all these things ahead of time because what like we talked about before, they wouldn't have crucified him, right? But it's like he he gave himself the hardest handicap just to show that, hey, by the way, I I am God. Pj Verdin: Well, and you know, I I thought about that because think about why didn't Jewish people believe that Jesus was the Messiah? Cause they was expecting him to come and take over everything. Right? And and Jesus, I mean, he he did come and take over everything, but not in the way that they thought. And I I I would venture to say that that's probably how the enemy thought too. They're like, ⁓ this that can't be him, because if he was him, he wouldn't be subjecting himself to this lower standard. You know what I mean? Like he I I think that they I I think that they believe the same way the Jewish people believe. They didn't think that Jesus was the Messiah, which is why they they allowed him to be crucified. You know what I mean? They're like, ⁓ no, from what we know of God's plan, whenever the Messiah gets here, there is no more Roman rule. Like he's coming back with authority. And Jesus is like, Man, if I do that, they they never gonna let me, you know, do what I gotta do. Randy: Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah, the the other thing I was thinking of, ⁓ when you were when you were speaking earlier was a silly one, but it's it's ⁓ this analogy I had thought of about Billy Madison. You remember the movie Billy Madison? Pj Verdin: Mm-hmm. Randy: So in Billy Madison, what's the whole movie about, right? He wants to like inherit his dad's company, right? But he has to go back to school and essentially prove himself before he gets the company, right? And it's like, I didn't know that was a a story about Jesus until I understood Deuteronomy 32. It's like, isn't that exactly what Jesus did? I mean, Satan literally tempted him with, I will give you. You what did you come here for, dude? I'm gonna just give it to you. All you gotta do is bow down and worship me. Pj Verdin: Right, right. Randy: But no, he went the hard way. He went back to school. He took naps in kindergarten. Silly analogy, I know. He had to go deal with the old Doyles who, you know, eventually went off the cliff just to prove that like he was worthy. Which he already was before he proved it, right? He already was, but he had to prove that he was worthy to receive this inheritance from God. Just like Billy was trying to prove that he was worthy to receive the company from his dad. Pj Verdin: Yeah, that's that's a I I see what you're getting at, but that's a that is a pretty crazy analogy to think. But Randy: It it is a crazy analogy, but it's like when I think about it and I ask myself, Well, why did we have to go through this whole trauma? Why why was it? I think A, God was showing, hey, I am God. Even if you're ninety-nine percent of the way there, you can't close that last gap, even if I'm starting from scratch, no matter how big of a handicap. And B, you know, you're gonna see how worthy I am through the work of my son who is going to go through this process to inherit the world. Yeah, he could just snap his fingers and he could just eliminate, you know, I I talked about About how you know God is ultimately not just mitigating, but he is ultimately dealing with evil and and and closing the book on that chapter. He could do that with the snap of his fingers. He's chosen to do it through this entire revelation of this process, right? He's he's chosen to do it in this this way that that proves he is God, that shows his character, that shows his worth, that shows his love, his might, his justice, etc. And he's orchestrated this whole this whole plan right to show us all these different things when he could have just snapped his fingers and just said it's done. Pj Verdin: Yep. And and look, man, I guess I'll I'll say this. No matter How you take the book of Revelation, if you want to look at it through ⁓ the lens of somebody like you know, Michael Heiser, how he's laid it out. ⁓ if you just read it and don't understand it, no matter how you go about getting through the book of Revelation, one thing that I can say with complete certainty ⁓ complete certainty, at le at least from my own experiences, ⁓ I have read the book of Revelation a lot differently. s ⁓ since I better understood who I am in Christ and and where my salvation lies. You know what I mean? I think the very first time that I read it, I was a lot more fearful of what was to come because of the unsure ⁓ the uncertainty that I had in in ultimately what where my final destination was, even as a as a as a Christian, a quote unquote Christian, which is what I would have considered myself even, you know, three years ago. l like I've mentioned before, I remember having the conversation where someone would ask me, like, hey, you know, do you know if you're going to heaven or not whenever you die? And I was like, I I really don't know, but I hope so. So being in a position like that and reading Revelation can be scary as hell. Literally. ⁓ but under s under understanding who you are in Christ and understanding that I am my my I I am headed to heaven, not because of anything that I did but because Jesus is done it all and called me to himself, you know, has allowed me to read that book with a lot more open mind and in instead of like looking for the loophole to to make sure that I don't go to hell is understanding that that I there's nothing that I I can do to affect that other than choose to to choose Jesus. You know what I mean? ⁓ it has opened my eyes to at least being ⁓ you know, a little bit more aware of like what I'm reading instead of looking for like, you know, the fine print to to get myself out of a bad deal kind of situation. So ⁓ yeah, that's that's that's been a a a really cool thing to to read a lot of the Bible from. I I wanna say that ever since, you know, that that shift has happened and that understanding of of my identity in Christ, the whole the whole Bible. Like you know, I I used to I guess i similarly I used to read the all all the the word of God looking for specific things. You know what I mean? That would kind of put things in black and white so I knew what to do, what I had to do, what I had to do. And once I I I was able to rest in the peace and the comfort that that we find in Jesus, man, like so many other things are so loud to me. They stick out to me. And I feel like the the Holy Spirit is able to grow me and mature me more because I'm not just looking for that one thing, like, ⁓ how do I how do I get this figured out? How how do I know? It's like, ⁓ well, you know, you're good. Like read read the word of God and enjoy it and understand it and and like See how intricate and how beautiful and how, you know, strategic and clever it is and all all the things. And so that's just been awesome, man. That's just I I love it. And and you know, that's the the book of Revelation was definitely the first one that I was like, ⁓ okay, whew. You know, I don't have to read this on the edge of my seat like afraid of it. You know what I mean? 'Cause I I know a a Revelation, ⁓ a lot of people, you know, they're like, ⁓ that's that's a scary book. Well, not really. You know what I mean? Not really. Randy: Right, right. Man, there's there's like almost not a sing I I don't even I can't I can't even tell you there's a single book in the Bible that doesn't have something that confuses me or something that's a mystery. You know, Revelations is probably one of the worst offenders from that that regard, but I mean look, you read through the Proverbs, man, that's so so much wisdom, probably half of which goes over my head. You read through the Psalms, you know what I mean? These are songs written by different people, a lot of them by David, and it's like, what are they talking about sometimes? I don't know. You know, you re Pj Verdin: Yeah. Randy: Read anything. Read Deuteronomy. Read some of these laws and some of these rituals. Read some of the names. I can't even pronounce some of the names, you know. And so I I just say all that to say this, like We talked about it before and I'm gonna continue to bring it up. It's not enough to just read the Bible. Study the Bible. And and what I mean by that is, you know, my approach, read one chapter every single day. And if you understand it, great, then pray about it, you know, reflect on it, and you know, let's soak it in. If you don't understand something, then do some research, dig in, look at a con you know, Bible concordance, use some AI to dig deeper, you know, find what you know people were saying about it. There's tons of of resources. I love the ⁓ the Bible project series. They always do a great job of explaining things. There's deep made simple. There's so many things out there that people could deep dive a chapter, a verse, a word. Like Deep dive it, study it. Don't make it your goal to just, ⁓ I'm gonna read through the Bible in a year. That's awesome, man. I think everyone should read the Bible com from cover to cover at some point. If you don't read it in order, at least read every page in the Bible at some point in your life. That's great. But if you really want to study, you are if you really want to understand, if you really want to absorb it, if you really want to, you know, have that word of God living within you, I think you gotta slow down a little bit, and I think you gotta go deeper than just trying to pronounce words on the page that are sometimes hard to to pronounce, but you gotta do a little bit a little bit deeper studying. And I think that we could all do a better job of that. Pj Verdin: Right. ⁓ man. Hundred percent, man. I I heard something and I was just like, I mean, it it it lit me up, man. ⁓ this pastor was like, you know, he said, Man, he said, I realize that my Bible study group has been lying to me for three years now. And I was like, What the heck is going on? He's like, you know, he's like we had been reading through the book of Philippians, and he was like, you know, I asked them I started asking them questions and he was he was like they were giving me these safe answers. And And then he's like, I started like digging deeper and asking them these questions. And they were like looking at me like, you know, deer in the headlight. He was like they were lost. He was like, and I realized unless unless I explain it to them, unless I hold their hand, they have no idea what's going on. And he's like, What I realized was I had been giving them fish this whole time and I hadn't been teaching them how to fish. And I was like, man, if more if more preachers or pastors understood that concept of of stop just giving people the fish and teach them how to fish. You know what I mean? Like it was it was just crazy, man. And so he like he said he started writing these these detailed plans of where he was like explaining to them like, hey, look, this is what's going on here. You know what I mean? ⁓ i in the book of Philippians, you know, Paul's in prison and he's writing to the the the church at Philippi because they're they're dealing with false teachers, like, you know, and it's just it's just these crazy things. And it's like, man, I I I love that. I l I love that. I think more people should should adopt that mentality. Randy: So I thought you were going somewhere completely different with that story, if I'll be honest with you. I thought you were gonna say something like, you know, he he he mentioned that he he realized his Bible study group was lying to him because they were studying a chapter a week and ten weeks in everyone was still saying that they had been reading their chapter. ⁓ because there's only four books ⁓ four chapters in the book of of Philippians. I th I thought you were gonna go with like some sort of numbers joke or something like that. But anyway. Pj Verdin: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No. No no man, but I I just I just thought that was really like I I I was I applaud that kind of thing because, you know, I I I think that, you know, we've addressed it before, but that I think that that's one of the underlying issues in the church is that you know, we're we're we're giving present or pastors are giving presentations to people and they're giving them the fish, but they're not teaching them to think for themselves or to encouraging them to to Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: Not just like you said, ⁓ get on a Bible plan, you'll read the Bible in a year. No, ⁓ do you understand what you read? No. Well then it's pointless. You know what I mean? It's it's it's it's pointless. So ⁓ but yeah. Anyways, I digress. Randy: All right, man. Well hey, you know, I think ⁓ this has been a good deep dive into revelations. We didn't we didn't solve any mysteries. We didn't ⁓ come up with any predictions or, you know, make any ⁓ declarations regarding some of the bigger controversies and arguments out there. But hopefully, you know, this run through helps people just understand it a little bit better. You know, just a little bit better. If nothing else, they see that there is a structure and they don't feel lost because they, you know, can't understand the timeline because it's not linear. ⁓ Pj Verdin: Yeah. Randy: And I think that th just those two things helped me and so I hope they help other people out there. So with that I think ⁓ I think that just about does it for today, man. What do you think? Pj Verdin: Right. Absolutely. Yes, sir. Randy: Alright, well hey, I just ⁓ you know we'll say thank you all for listening. Appreciate everyone liking and subscribing and following following the show. And if you haven't already, make sure you do. And then let us know what you think. Hold on, let me let me let me cut this part out and let me redo that. ⁓ so I just want to thank everyone for listening today. And if you haven't already, please remember to like and subscribe and follow the show. And before you go, make sure you let us know what you think in the comments down below. God bless. Pj Verdin: God bless. Randy: That's one of those things I'm gonna say, I'm gonna edit out to them I'll just leave it in and we'll see how many