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Voddie Baucham - Family Matters: Speaking Truth Into The Current Culture · Voddie Baucham Sermons

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Voddy, welcome to New Zealand. Just firstly, tell the viewers,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: who is Voddy Bacon?
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah. At the end of the day, I'm just a preacher,
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: you know. Born and raised in Los Angeles, California, and
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: spent most of my life in Houston, Texas. Had the
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: privilege of serving the Lord as a pastor, church planter,
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: and spent the last almost decade in Lusaka and Zambia.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: helping to start the African Christian University. And after almost
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: a decade there, we're now transitioning back to the United States,
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: going to Florida to help start the Founders Seminary. Married
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: to Bridget for 35 years in a row. And we
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: have nine children and so far three grandchildren. Lord willing,
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: on the way to 45 grandchildren, I've told the kids,
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: I don't, you know, no pressure, you know, um, it just, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: I figured that's a reasonable number. Um, but yeah, that's me.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: I know that a lot of people have benefited from
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: both reading your books and hearing you speak in person. Look,
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  Speaker 1: I want to specifically cover on two books. So the
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: first one is fault lines, the social justice movement and evangelicalism.
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  Speaker 1: Evangelicalism's Looming Catastrophe. It's hard enough saying that title. Who
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: came up with that.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: Title, Bodhi? Okay. That was fun. That was fun. I
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: don't know if you enjoyed it, but I did.
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  Speaker 1: So you published the book in 2021, and it was,
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's in the height of George Floyd, the
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: BLM riots, and Christians got up in the pulpit and
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: started to say Black Lives Matter. Some churches even hung
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: the flag outside the church.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: But then you suggest that there may be more to
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  Speaker 1: the social justice movement than understood by Christian leaders, and
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: that they may have been duped into preaching ideas opposed
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  Speaker 1: to the kingdom of God.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: How can you preach that certain lives matter, and yet
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: that could be opposed to the kingdom of God? What
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  Speaker 1: do you mean by that?
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, the critical social justice movement as a whole
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  Speaker 2: is part of the neo-Marxist critical theory, ideology, part of
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: the neo-Marxist oppressor-oppressed paradigm. And what happened with the George
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  Speaker 2: Floyd incident is that these ideas that were percolating in
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  Speaker 2: academia for a long time, all of a sudden there
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  Speaker 2: was a breach in the wall and these ideas flooded
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  Speaker 2: in through the wall. And they flooded in with Phrases
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  Speaker 2: and concepts that sounded benign. Social justice, right? Who can
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  Speaker 2: hate that? Anti-racist. Am I pro-racist? Am I, you know,
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: racial justice, so on and so forth. And what I'm
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: trying to do in Fault Lines is help people understand
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: that there's an ideology behind this. And they're using the
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: same words, but pouring different meanings into them. And in
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: order to have a proper understanding and in order to
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: have meaningful interchange, we have to know what these words mean.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: So the word social justice, I mean, it's a very
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: trendy word. We should all be into social justice. What
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  Speaker 1: does social justice mean?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. According to the Oxford Dictionary of the English Language,
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  Speaker 2: social justice is redistributive justice. It's redistributing wealth, privileges, and possessions.
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  Speaker 2: which sounds a lot like socialism, communism, right? We need
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: to understand that that's where the idea comes from. And
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  Speaker 2: that's what people mean when they use this. The other
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  Speaker 2: problem with it is as Christians, we have a biblical
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  Speaker 2: concept of justice and it doesn't have adjectives. It's just justice, right?
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  Speaker 2: And in justice from a biblical perspective, you favor neither
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  Speaker 2: the rich nor the poor. In social justice, from a
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  Speaker 2: broader Marxist perspective, you absolutely favor the poor. You absolutely
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  Speaker 2: disfavor the rich because your assumption is that one of
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  Speaker 2: those is inherently an oppressor and the other is inherently oppressed.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, but if you look at Scripture, Jesus talked about
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  Speaker 1: feeding the poor, clothing, visiting those in prison, lifting up
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: the marginalized. Wasn't that a message? Is that social justice?
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  Speaker 2: That's benevolence. Yeah. And we just need to call it
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  Speaker 2: what it is. It's benevolence. And the huge difference is
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  Speaker 2: social justice is about state coercion. When it comes to
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  Speaker 2: benevolence and taking care of the poor, by the way,
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  Speaker 2: Jesus also said the poor you have with you always, right?
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  Speaker 2: When it comes to doing that, that is about the
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  Speaker 2: individual believer taking care of people in their circles. It's
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  Speaker 2: not about the government coercing people, right, taking their money
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  Speaker 2: at the tip of a spear and then redistributing it
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  Speaker 2: to other people. That's a completely different concept.
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  Speaker 1: So why have Christians... bought into it? Have they simply
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  Speaker 1: bought into a nice sounding label called social justice, or
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  Speaker 1: are they thinking deeper than we are?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I, I think part of it is being naive.
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  Speaker 2: Part of it is, like I said, these, these phrases
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  Speaker 2: sound good and they, and they sound like the things
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  Speaker 2: that we are committed to, right? Um, equity sounds a
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  Speaker 2: lot like equality. It's a very different thing, right? Equality
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  Speaker 2: is about equal opportunity. Equity is about equal outcomes. Um,
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  Speaker 2: But because these things, you know, sound so inviting and
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  Speaker 2: sound so familiar, that's one reason that we're drawn into it.
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  Speaker 2: Another reason we're drawn into it or were drawn into
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  Speaker 2: it is because of the immense pressure of the moment.
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  Speaker 2: It is, like I said, the dam broke. And all
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  Speaker 2: of a sudden, from everywhere, we're hearing this consensus that
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  Speaker 2: about oppression and, uh, you know, and all these other issues.
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  Speaker 2: So part of it was the pressure that people were
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: under as they looked around and everyone seemed to be
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  Speaker 2: saying the same thing from the very top of society
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  Speaker 2: on down. Um, so I, I think it was kind
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  Speaker 2: of a perfect storm. And then of course we've got
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  Speaker 2: this image, you know, of a man who loses his
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  Speaker 2: life on camera. Right. Um, Again, all of it just
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  Speaker 2: came together in such a way that it was a
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  Speaker 2: perfect storm.
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  Speaker 1: So Christians seem to be told, and I think you
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  Speaker 1: talk about this in the book, that Christians are told
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  Speaker 1: either you're a social justice warrior or you're shutting down
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  Speaker 1: minority voices, you're shutting down conversations about racial injustice, you're
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  Speaker 1: upholding white supremacy. Is that true?
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  Speaker 2: You know, what's ironic about that is the social justice
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  Speaker 2: movement is the one that shuts down conversations. The social
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  Speaker 2: justice movement is the one that says to certain people,
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  Speaker 2: you're not allowed to have a voice, right? There's certain
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: voices that we have to elevate. And in order to
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  Speaker 2: do that, there are other voices that we have to silence. Well,
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  Speaker 2: that's not a conversation. And so ironically, the very opposite
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  Speaker 2: of that is true.
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  Speaker 1: So you say that critical race theory or systemic racism
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  Speaker 1: has become Christianity 101. What do you mean by that?
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  Speaker 2: What I mean is it became part of the vernacular.
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  Speaker 2: It became part of what we heard in many public
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  Speaker 2: Christian settings. The assumptions of this neo-Marxist movement became the
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  Speaker 2: assumptions that undergirded a lot of what very prominent Christian
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  Speaker 2: leaders were saying during that season. Hmm.
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  Speaker 1: You've probably already figured it out that I'm the cis, white, heterosexual, married, Christian.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I am the oppressor, aren't I?
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  Speaker 2: What a terrible man.
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  Speaker 1: And the gospel is supposed to be the colonizer. It's
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  Speaker 1: a white man's gospel. What do you say to that?
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  Speaker 2: I think it's very interesting. The gospel was in Africa
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  Speaker 2: before it was in Europe. So I think the early
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  Speaker 2: Christians would find it fascinating that Christianity is supposed to
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  Speaker 2: be white. It's, it's not, you know, we have this
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  Speaker 2: Jewish savior from the ancient near East. Again, I think
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  Speaker 2: statements like that point to the intellectual dishonesty of those
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  Speaker 2: who make them.
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  Speaker 1: Is there a white privilege thing?
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  Speaker 2: No, no, there's not a privilege. One of the interesting
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  Speaker 2: things in the United States, one of the poorest areas
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  Speaker 2: in the United States is the Appalachian region. Overwhelmingly white.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm sure those people would be fascinated to discover
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  Speaker 2: that they have privilege based solely on their skin color. No. No.
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  Speaker 2: You say that.
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  Speaker 1: Quote, at the heart of the woke movement lies the
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  Speaker 1: idea that the sin of racism is no longer understood
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  Speaker 1: as an individual sin. Instead, the term now incorporates the
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  Speaker 1: idea of institutional or structural racism, systemic racism. Why have
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  Speaker 1: they done that? Why have they moved it from an
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  Speaker 1: individual level of calling out someone who's a racist to saying.
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  Speaker 2: We're all racist? Because it's about power. Again, this is
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  Speaker 2: about power and redistribution. This is about who's in control
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  Speaker 2: at a governmental level. Ultimately, this is not about the
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  Speaker 2: heart of the individual man. This is about overturning what
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  Speaker 2: the neo-Marxists would call the cultural hegemony, right? The ideology
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  Speaker 2: at the core of our roles, norms, mores, you know,
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  Speaker 2: As a culture. And so because of that, the idea
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  Speaker 2: of the individual racist, that really doesn't work. It really
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  Speaker 2: doesn't serve the purpose. But the idea of systemic, the
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  Speaker 2: idea of structural, that's very useful for people who are
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  Speaker 2: really after power.
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  Speaker 1: But you do talk about universal guilt, don't you? That
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  Speaker 1: we are all sinners saved by grace. So we do
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  Speaker 1: need to look inward, don't we?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Our own antigens.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, we absolutely do. And that's the irony of this
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  Speaker 2: movement and of Christians jumping onto this movement, because racism
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  Speaker 2: in the heart of man, we have an answer for.
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  Speaker 2: And that answer is the gospel. That answer is the
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  Speaker 2: one who is our peace. That answer is the person
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  Speaker 2: and work of Christ who redeems us and not only
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  Speaker 2: unites us and reconciles us to God vertically, but reconciles
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  Speaker 2: us to one another horizontally. See, that's what you do
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  Speaker 2: with sin in the heart of a man. But when
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  Speaker 2: the sin is, you know, out there in the ether,
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  Speaker 2: you know, or in the halls of power, now all
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  Speaker 2: of a sudden our gospel doesn't really apply. And here's
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  Speaker 2: the great irony. These same people who, you know, want
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  Speaker 2: to promote critical social justice, want to promote the idea
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  Speaker 2: that it's systemic justice, and, and structural, these same people
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  Speaker 2: are screaming and crying about so-called Christian nationalism because they
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  Speaker 2: don't want Christianity in, you know, the, the, the political sphere.
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  Speaker 2: But at the same time, they're saying that racism is
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  Speaker 2: something that's structural and systemic, which means that the answer
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  Speaker 2: is inherently political. So which one is it? They want
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  Speaker 2: to have their cake and eat it too. And as
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  Speaker 2: Christians we, Instead of us taking 39 seconds to think
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  Speaker 2: through that and recognize it for the power play that
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  Speaker 2: it is, we tie ourselves in knots trying to satisfy
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  Speaker 2: both of those, you know, contradictory ideas.
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  Speaker 1: So I talked about my intersectionality, you know, my cis
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  Speaker 1: white male married Christian. This intersectionality, what's that really trying
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  Speaker 1: to do? What's it trying to achieve?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. There's a phrase called the oppression Olympics. I love that.
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  Speaker 2: The whole idea is I'm more oppressed than you, right?
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  Speaker 2: And so if the oppressor is the white, male, heterosexual, cisgendered, able-bodied,
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  Speaker 2: you know, so on and so forth, Christian, then the
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  Speaker 2: person who's not white, that's one oppression. The person who's
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  Speaker 2: not white and not male, they have an intersection where
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  Speaker 2: those two oppressions overlap. if you're not white, not male,
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  Speaker 2: not heterosexual. So now you have all of these overlapping oppressions.
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  Speaker 2: And again, the idea is the more of those you
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: can pile on, the more oppressed you are, which means
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: the more social capital you get in the social justice environment.
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  Speaker 1: So you have churches that buy into the social justice.
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  Speaker 1: They care for the environment. They care for the poor.
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  Speaker 1: They are concerned about racism. Can't that be part of
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: a functioning biblical church?
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  Speaker 2: It better be. It better be. But again, when you
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  Speaker 2: are doing that from a social justice perspective, you're not
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  Speaker 2: taking care of the poor. You're advocating for the government
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: to take care of the poor, right? You're not doing
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  Speaker 2: these things. That's not what social justice is. So again,
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  Speaker 2: I go back to the fact that we need to
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  Speaker 2: understand the game that's being played. We need to understand
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  Speaker 2: the terminology that these people are using because ultimately what
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  Speaker 2: happens is if we go, okay, I get it. We
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: need racial justice. We'll be about that as a church.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: We need social justice. We'll be about that as a church.
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  Speaker 2: And so you start trying to reconcile people horizontally to
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  Speaker 2: one another and and then you start trying to do
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  Speaker 2: things for people as a church and as individuals, the
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: social justice warrior says, oh, no, no, no, no, no.
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  Speaker 2: You've missed it, my friend. You're not doing the work.
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  Speaker 2: In order to do the work, you've got to dismantle
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  Speaker 2: the structures in society, right? You're going after the individual things.
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  Speaker 2: That's not what racism is, right? That's not what oppression is.
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  Speaker 2: You've got to dismantle the structures in society. So, Ironically,
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  Speaker 2: we can try as hard as we want to to
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  Speaker 2: satisfy the social justice warriors, but until we're doing things
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  Speaker 2: their way, which is, again, it's the neo-Marxist ideology, oppressor-oppressed,
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: cultural hegemony, structural, systemic, until we're doing that, then they're
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: still going to despise us.
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  Speaker 1: So if you don't like the terms social justice and
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: you don't think churches should be using it, what words
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  Speaker 1: do you encourage them to use? What's a better explanation
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  Speaker 1: of what they should be doing?
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  Speaker 2: If you're doing benevolence, do benevolence. I mean, you know,
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  Speaker 2: if you're doing reconciliation, do reconciliation. If you're doing, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: just call it what the scriptures call it. but don't
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  Speaker 2: call it what the enemies of the gospel call it.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, you actually say in the book, the 11th
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  Speaker 1: commandment is thou shalt be nice, and we don't believe
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  Speaker 1: the other 10.
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  Speaker 2: Are you serious? Yeah, absolutely, man.
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  Speaker 1: And why have churches got to that point where we're
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  Speaker 1: all concerned about being nice than speaking the truth?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's because this goes into the other book that
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: we're talking about, But the idea of the LGBTQIA plus movement,
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: the idea from Kirk and Madsen in After the Wall,
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: the idea of desensitizing, jamming, and conversion. Again, desensitizing, we understand, right?
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  Speaker 2: Just get those images out there, get us used to it.
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  Speaker 1: Normalizing things.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, normalizing it. Stigma. Yeah, yeah. Jamming is about a
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  Speaker 2: juxtaposition of this Conviction that we have as a Christian
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: that is opposed to something and another image that we
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: find offensive. So when it comes to sexuality, you equate
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: being opposed to homosexuality, same-sex marriage, transgenderism with being a
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: skinhead or a Nazi or whatever. When you do that,
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: it sort of jams our intellectual response because we don't
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: want to be identified with that. So we're very hesitant
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  Speaker 2: to acknowledge our position on this. And I think that's
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: what's happened to us. That's what's happening to us. We've
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: been jammed. And so we're just hesitant to speak the
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  Speaker 2: truth and let the truth be the truth.
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  Speaker 1: And that happens in reverse as well, doesn't it? Because
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: you've got the UN saying reproductive rights rather than saying
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: killing the unborn child in the womb through abortion.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: You've got death with dignity rather than euthanasia.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: You've got gender affirmation rather than trying to change the sex.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: So there's lots of manipulation of the language going on.
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  Speaker 2: Lots of euphemisms out there. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And so that's part of the discernment of the church
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  Speaker 1: is understanding which labels are being used to, what, deny
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  Speaker 1: scriptural truth?
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  Speaker 2: We don't engage in the evil deeds of darkness, but
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  Speaker 2: instead we expose them. as Ephesians 5 tells us. We
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: expose them.
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  Speaker 1: Now look, I know the social stats, because I've looked
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  Speaker 1: at both New Zealand and the United States and around
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  Speaker 1: the world, the indigenous people in New Zealand, the Maori,
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  Speaker 1: are not doing well in the social stats. The marriage
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: rates are low, family breakdown is not... high, family violence
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: is high, victims of crime, incarceration, child abuse, health, educational outcomes.
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  Speaker 1: The Māori, indigenous, and also some of the Pacific Island
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  Speaker 1: people as well, they don't fare well in a lot
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: of those statistics. So shouldn't the church be speaking up
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  Speaker 1: on those issues?
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely. We have to speak up on those issues. But
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  Speaker 2: interestingly enough, when it comes to those issues and issues
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: like them, the key to what you said was that
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: whole family breakdown. Because one of the leading indicators of
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: all of those things, one of the leading indicators of
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: you know, dropping out and not finishing school, teenage pregnancy, crime,
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: you know, attempted suicide, so on and so forth. One
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: of the leading indicators of that is fatherlessness. And low
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: marriage rates, right? Out of wedlock births. So the problem
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  Speaker 2: is not, or the question is not whether the church
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: should speak about those things. But the question is, how
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  Speaker 2: do we speak about those things? And what the social
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: justice movement says is, well, if you go to the
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: issue of calling people to get married, stay married, raise
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: your kids biblically responsibly, get a job, keep a job,
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: you start talking like that and you're victim blaming because
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: it doesn't fit the oppressor-oppressed paradigm. But if you define
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: racism as structural and systemic, then once you see an
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: issue like that, your immediate assumption is that that's proof
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: of the structural and systemic racism. It's all about your assumptions. So, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: we as a church absolutely should be addressing that. And
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: here's the irony. We are. because the most stable marriages
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: are what? People who are Christians, who are regular church attenders,
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: people who are committed to their faith, have the strongest,
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: longest lasting marriages. I'll give you another irony. Recently in
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: the US, you look at surveys from the Journal of
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: the American Medical Association, the most sexually satisfied women in
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: America are married women in their 40s and 50s. But
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: the world is telling us it's promiscuous people in their 20s, right?
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: And so we absolutely need to be addressing these issues,
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: but we need to have confidence that we have the
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: answers in the Word of God.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: They blame racism and systemic racism, but they also blame colonization. Yes.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: Do you buy that?
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the whole colonization thing. I think it's just awful
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: that Western Christian nations had the audacity to bring the
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: greatest freedom and prosperity that the world has ever seen
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: through the spread of the gospel. How dare they? How
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: dare they create cultures and societies that are the envy
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: of the world in terms of things like women's rights and,
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: you know... functional governments and so on and so forth.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: How dare they not leave people in the darkness that
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: they would have been in and still are in, in
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: the non-Christian world. It's so ironic and disgusting that people
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: do that, right? I mean, you look at the prosperity
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: in the world today, freedom in the world today. You
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: look at low levels of corruption in the world today.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: You look at the rights of women in the world
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: today and, Without fail, you find that those things are
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: best in the Christian West. And again, it's so ironic.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: People of color complain. Women complain. You tell me where
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: you'd rather be a person of color. You tell me
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: where you'd rather be a woman than in the Christian West.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: Let's look at your other book, and it's an easier
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: title so I can say it. It's called It's Not
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: Like Being Black, How Sexual Activists Hijack the Civil Rights Movement. Now,
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, the first thing is, I mean, the title alone,
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: and you've got LGBT flags here. You actually admitted in
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: the leaf of the book, you said you started to
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: write the book in 2010. but no publisher would touch it.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, why is that? I would have thought 2024
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: would have been much 2025 now, but 2024 when you
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: published it, that would have been much harder to publish.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: Well, the only reason that it wasn't is because, uh,
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: fault lines had done so well. So fault lines was
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: an international bestseller. Uh, so at that point I had
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: a little leverage, you know, because your publisher's like, okay,
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: where do we go next? I'm like, interesting. You should ask.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: Okay, so you, near the beginning of the book, you say,
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: whether you identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, trigender, multigender, two-spirit, furry, queer, demiflux, otherkin,
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: or as a mermaid, a British Columbian wolf, or an
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: avian-human hybrid, not one of those things is like being black.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: By the way, all of those are real things.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: Like every one of them. People think I was being
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: facetious to it. All of those are real things.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: It's not until you reel them out that you realize how.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: Ridiculous it is. Absolutely, it's ridiculous.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: But what's your point?
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: And the point there is that so-called sexual identity is
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: not the same as an immutable characteristic like your race
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: or ethnicity. Or your sex. Or your sex, right? That's
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: one point. But the deeper point is We need to
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: recognize that what these movements have done is they have
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: made that connection and linked those things up together in
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: order to advance their cause. And that's what I'm sort
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: of trying to expose in the book.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: Okay, so they throw around this term, and the term
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: is sexual minority.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: And the fact of the matter is that the LGBTQI
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: plus divided by sign group is around... according to our stats,
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: around 4%, although a lot of those are people who
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: are just experimenting or don't know themselves. So it's actually
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: very low. So they are a sexual minority, aren't they?
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's not what they mean. The interesting thing
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: about that is when they say sexual minority, what they're
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: talking about is within the context of this neo-Marxist oppressor-oppressed ideology.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: The minority is the one who's oppressed. And a great
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: way to understand this is to understand the fact that
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: women are considered minorities as well, even though numerically they're
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: in the majority. But that's because you're not talking about numbers.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: You're talking about ideology. And so that's how they're using
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: that terminology. But they're also using that in order to
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: connect to this whole idea of racial minorities and civil
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: rights movements and things of this nature. So it's very strategic.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: to hitch their wagons that way.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: So why are they muddying sexuality and gender identity with race?
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: Because you don't choose your race.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: It's part of the jamming process, right? Because, again, what
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: do you do? You say, remember the illustration that they
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: use is that being opposed to homosexuality, lesbianism, whatever, is
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: akin to being a Nazi skinhead, What do those things
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: have to do? It's race hatred, right? So they're equating
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: it with race hatred. And we've seen that. We've seen Nazis.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: We've seen skinheads. We've seen the slave trade. We've seen this.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: And so they take something that we've seen, that we
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: agree is appalling, and that we've overturned, right? And they
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: equate it with these issues of sexual preference, in order
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: to jam us, right? In order to, it's a bait
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: and switch, you know? If you're opposed to this, then
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: you have to be opposed to that because these things
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: are the same. Well, they're not.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: Now, I know while you're in New Zealand, you're going
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: to do what every tourist does and you're going to
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: go to Hobbiton and possibly you're going to drive through
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: a town called Morrinsville. And out of Morrinsville came a
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: guy called John Money. who you wrote about in your book.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: In fact, I mean, he's so kind of held in
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: esteem by certain people in New Zealand that there's even
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: an art gallery in Gore in the South Island that
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: displays some of his art collection, which was gifted by
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: John Money. But why should John Money make everybody shudder?
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: John Money is... He's one of the greatest villains in history.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: And he is the father of the current understanding of
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: gender ideology. and he became that by abusing two twin
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: boys one of whom had his genitalia basically destroyed in
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: a botched circumcision and money believed that, uh, sexuality was fluid, um,
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: convinced these parents that he could raise that boy as
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: a girl and it would be fine. Um, long story short,
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: that didn't work out. Um, that, that boy, uh, was
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: every bit of boy. Um, when he was told what
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: had been done to him, um, It destroyed him, and
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: he eventually ended up committing suicide.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: So why did you cover John Money in your book?
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: What was the relevance of all that?
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: The point was people needed to know where this ideology
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: came from. They needed to know that this guy who
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: abused these boys made them perform sex acts on each other.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: They needed to know that this stuff is coming from somewhere.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: that there are people who have been trying to promote
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: an ideology, a very particular and pernicious ideology. The other
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: one I deal with is Alfred Kinsey. Again, another just
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: mind-boggling deviant. And so, yeah, I wanted people to understand
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: where this stuff comes from. And I also wanted them
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: to understand, and I wanted to talk about Kinsey and
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: money because... This movement has cover because they presented as
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: though we have science, right? There's science behind this. And
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: both of these guys did fraudulent research. Both of these
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: guys lied. Money was a hero because, you know, he
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: told the world that his experiment succeeded. And it wasn't until,
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: you know, the young man comes out and tells his
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: story that that people realized not only did it not succeed,
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: but he abused those boys horribly. So I just, I
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: want people to recognize that it's a lie. The emperor
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: has no clothes. It's not true. You know, even in
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: the acronym, you know, the 2SLGBTQIA +, I have a
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: whole chapter on the acronym demonstrating that logically these things work.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: are inconsistent and they compete with each other. They, they can't,
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: they can't all be true, you know? And yet we
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: lumped them together. Yeah. And the only reason we lumped
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: them together is because of this whole idea of sexual minority. Um,
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: but anyway, that's, that's, that's why I think people need
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: to know John money's name. Okay.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: And, and I mean, there's still a lot of scientific
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: research that's pushing the fact that the argument that you
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: can change your sex and that, um, if you don't
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: allow a child to change their sex, they're going to
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: commit suicide. There's a whole lot of, myths still coming
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: out of so-called science. But look, let's just get back
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: to the labelling, because I think where most people struggle
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: in this area is they understand what you're saying, but
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: the problem is that they're thrown terms like marriage equality,
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: love is love, love our neighbour, Jesus loved everyone, don't judge.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: How do you respond to what they call those clobberverses?
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, those aren't the clobber verses. The clobber verses
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: are the ones against homosexuality. Those are the ones that
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: they call the clobber verses. But these are more Christian
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: ideas that they twist and try to use against us.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: But the way that they do that is to rip
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: these things kicking and screaming out of their context. You know, so.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: But it's a hard one to answer, isn't it? Love
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: is love.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: No, that's not a hard one to answer. You know,
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: love is love. Okay, so the 50-year-old man loves the
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: 10-year-old girl. Love is love, right? And immediately that thing dies, right?
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: But people don't think that far. Why don't they think
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: that far?
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: I don't know. It's my job to help them. Because
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: that's all you have to do. Just like that, people
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: recognize that's the dumbest thing in the world. It's just no.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: Okay, what about Jesus loves everybody?
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: First of all, no. But secondly, Jesus calls us to repent.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: And it's loving to call people to repent. So if
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: you want to do that, Um, cause Jesus also hates sin. Yeah. Right.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: So again, these, these things are fine, but we have
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: to recognize the game that's being played. We have to
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: recognize that people are pulling these ideas, kicking and screaming
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: out of their context. And I, I love it because
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: it gives us an opportunity to push back. Right. They say,
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: love is loving. Like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Again,
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: 50 year old man, 10 year old girl, you know, um,
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: but God is love. And because God is love, love
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: has to be defined first vertically and then horizontally. Yeah. Right.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: That gets us into the gospel.
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: So where do you, where do you get this balance
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: between speaking the truth, but speaking the truth in love
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: and grace?
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah. We have to recognize that love and grace is
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: the way we speak the truth, not a substitute for
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: speaking the truth. Um, And that's been a problem for
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: a long time, is that somehow through this desensitizing and
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: jamming and conversion, we've been put on our heels and
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: we've made truth and love enemies. And so in the
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: name of love and grace, we refrain from speaking the truth.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: But sometimes when you speak the truth and no matter
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: how you say it, the receiver still, it jars, it hurts,
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: and maybe even wounds in some way. Cause it's digging
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: deep into.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have a big scar right here
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: on my chest where a guy took a scalpel, cut
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: me open and then a saw and split my rib
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: cage and then rib spreaders open me up. And then
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: he went in and cut my, you know, arteries. And
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: I mean, that just, just awful things he did to me,
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: you know, And then sewed me up and, you know,
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: I woke up in all kind of pain. But I
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: was absolutely grateful that he went in and fixed my heart.
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: And we have to recognize that when we are speaking
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: God's truth to people, they may perceive it one way,
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: but we know better. And ultimately, our desire is for
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: the heart to be fixed. And that may mean that
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: we do some things that can be difficult, that can
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: be even painful, right? But if our goal is to
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: get that heart fixed, we do those hard things.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: What about the argument, though, that things like abortion, euthanasia, gender,
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: gay marriage, church and politics shouldn't mix? we should just
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: focus on preaching the gospel and we just should love
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: people into the kingdom. What's your response to that?
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the Bible would completely disagree. Romans 13 would completely disagree.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: You know, verses 1 and 2, we love to press
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: on that, right, where we submit to the governing authorities.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: But verses 4 and 5 tell the governing authorities how
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: they're supposed to operate as ministers of God, right? And so...
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: We can't have Romans 13, 4, and 5 and have
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: a world where our Christianity is somehow irrelevant to the
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: political realm. Nothing could be further from the truth. And again,
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: I go back and say the irony of that is
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: it is because Christians... took their faith seriously in every
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: area and aspect of life, that we got the Christian
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: West and all of its benefits. Now we've got people
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: sitting here enjoying those benefits, wanting to cut out their
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: nose to spite their faith. Yeah.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: Now, I know you don't like adjectives in front of
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: a noun like social justice.
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: Is there such a thing as a gay Christian or
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: a transgender Christian?
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: No, there's no... There's no such thing as a, not
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: to the extent that people are unrepentant, right? There may
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: be people that God has saved out of those lifestyles.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: When people are saved out of those lifestyles, then that's
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: what they used to be. And that's the way Paul
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: puts it, right? In 2 Corinthians 6, such were some
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: of you, but you were washed. You're not that anymore.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: So no, you may be a formerly saved, practicing homosexual.
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: I don't even like that idea of calling a person,
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: a person gay, um, because that's not who you are.
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: It's not an indelible part of your nature or character.
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: It may be what you do, but that's not who
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: you are. You may practice homosexuality, but you're not a homosexual, right?
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: That's not who you are. Um, and so transgenderism becomes
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: a little more difficult, um, sort of, because there may
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: be people who've done things to their body that can't
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: be undone. But still, in terms of your ideology and
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: the way that you identify, when we repent, we don't
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: identify ourselves that way anymore. It's what we were.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: When you spoke to the church leaders this morning, you
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: used the example of how we should, when we are
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: responding to this kind of argument, we should replace it
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: with certain other.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the sin replacement theory.
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: Sin replacement theory. Is that your theory or is that
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: the official one?
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: The sin replacement theory. Can you explain that to us?
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: So because jamming has been so effective, I get questions
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: all the time about, well, there's a homosexual in our
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: church or there's a same-sex couple in our church and
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: they want to have a wedding or they want to-
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: They want to serve in the church. They want to
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: serve in the church. They want to. And the way
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: that I answer that question is by introducing the sin
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: replacement theory. And I say, okay, let's just change the sin.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: And let's just say that, again, the 50-year-old man and
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: his 10-year-old wife want to come and want to, and
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: immediately the response is, well, no, I would never. Again,
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: you've been jammed. Why is it that you treat this
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: particular sin in a way that you wouldn't treat any
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: other sin. I think you said earlier, if a married
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: man wants to come with his secretary that he's having
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: an affair with, are we gonna go, yeah, should we?
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: Love is love, should we? Yeah, love is love, right? Again,
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: so I find that the whole idea of the sin
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: replacement theory is really helpful to people and it helps
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: us to see what's been done to us. And we
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: just kind of go, Yeah, why do I put this
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: in an entirely different category than every other set?
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: And why have we? Why have we put sexuality and
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: gender identity?
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: Because we've been jammed. By the culture. It works. Desensitized, jammed, converted.
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: And the conversion.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: The conversion makes us allies.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: In the book it also talks about, comes through the media.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: Media is one of the key allies.
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: Media and schools. The media and schools are the primary
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: sources of that. And yeah.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: You've mentioned schools and that just reminded me, I need
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: you just to sound a warning to our audience. What,
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: what's your, what you gave a very strong message to
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: the church leaders. What's your message to Christians about the
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: education system?
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's not our friend. It is, it is opposed to,
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: to God and the kingdom of God. We have an obligation.
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: You're talking about the state, right?
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah. The state run schools. We have an obligation to
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: give our child a Christian education and, We need to
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: do everything we can to provide a Christian education for
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: our children. In school system in the U.S., and it's
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: similar here in terms of the years, a child spends
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: about 14,000 instructional hours in school, which just gives so
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: much weight to Jesus' statement in Luke 640, a pupil
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: is not above his teacher, but everyone, when he is
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: fully trained, will be like his teacher. And we're seeing
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: that on these issues. our children have so imbibed wokeness.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: They've so imbibed the LGBTQA plus movement. They've so imbibed
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: all of this stuff because when we send our children
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: to Caesar for their education, we can't be surprised when
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: they come home as Romans. And, and we, we do it. It's,
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: and it's getting more urgent every day.
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: Your analogy, if I remember rightly was, uh, The face
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: on the coin given to Caesar.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, when Jesus is asked,
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: you know, should we pay taxes to Caesar? And his
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: response is beautiful. He says, bring me a coin. You know,
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: whose image is on the coin? Caesar's. Okay. Render to
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: Caesar that which is Caesar's. And then I ask, bring
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: me a child whose image is on the child. It's
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: God's image. So don't render him to Caesar.
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: Just as we wrap this up, you say, and look,
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: I think this is an obvious statement, but you've made
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: the statement. I'm interested to know why you spelt it out.
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: You said we must protect our children. What are you
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: trying to say there? Because we would all say we've
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: got to protect our children.
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: From what and why was it so important to make
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: a special title?
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So this movement, here's what's interesting. when you're talking
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: about the LGBTQ plus whatever they, they, they can't reproduce.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: When you can't reproduce the other way you grow is
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: to recruit these people at the end of the day. It's,
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: it always comes down to the sexualization of children. It
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: always comes down to, um, you know, eventually starting to
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: talk about, um, age of consent laws and other things.
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: It comes down to the indoctrination of our children. And
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: we need to recognize that that's happening, that our children
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: are vulnerable and that the world would do them harm
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: in this regard. And we have to protect them. I mean,
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: what's happening with the trans movement? The trans movement, they're
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: not satisfied for grown men and grown women to go
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: and do what they want with their bodies. No, no, no, no, no.
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: It's got to be puberty blockers, which implies prepubescent children, right?
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: It always goes that way. And of course, the next
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: front in all of this is often referred to as
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: the silent P, right? in the, in the, in the acronym,
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: the silent P is pedophilia. And it's, it's, it's there.
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: And whatever argument people are going to make, right. Well, no,
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: that's not what we're talking about. You know, well, no, that's, that's,
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: you know, that nobody's, nobody's making that argument. We wouldn't
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: be banking that. Well, 25 years ago, we would have
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: said that about homosexuality. Right. And here's my question. On
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: what basis do we deny the pedophile? On the basis
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: that it's unbiblical? We've given up that ground already, right?
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: On the basis that it's immoral? We've given up that
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: ground already. There's no morality, right? On the basis that,
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, on what basis? What ground do we have
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: left to stand on now that we have completely capitulated
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: to all of the other deviants The answer is none.
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: There is no ground on which we can stand to
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: deny pedophilia.
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: So what do you say to, just finally, to Christian leaders,
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: to church leaders, elders, youth workers? They're facing situations where
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: there's families turning up. There may be same-sex couples. There
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: may be teenagers that are on puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones.
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: They're coming in with a worldview that that's been indoctrinated
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: in them, that is rife out there. How does a
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: church welcome these people into the church, surround them with
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: the love of God, but at the same time speak
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: the truth, which we know it's the truth that sets
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: people free?
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Again, remember, love and grace has to do with
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: the way we speak the truth. It's not a substitute
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: for speaking the truth. We have to love people enough.
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: People's lives are being destroyed. They're being destroyed. Go listen
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: to some of the detransitioners. The people who, young women
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: who had healthy breast tissue removed when they were adolescents,
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: who took puberty blockers and now they're sterile. Go listen
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: to those stories.
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we had Chloe Cole speak at our conference last year.
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: We listened to those stories, and all of a sudden
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: you realize somebody needed to intervene. It wasn't loving to
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: sit idly by and allow that to happen to these children. So, yeah,
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: we have to. But when you look at, I don't
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: know how many people actually have friends or relatives close
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: to them who are engaged in the homosexual lifestyle, that
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: they've actually talked to about the debauchery of the homosexual lifestyle.
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: But when you talk to people about this, it's not
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: the TV sitcoms, right? It's not the wonderful, witty, it's
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: not that. It's dark, as anybody who's ever been to
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: a pride parade can tell you, you know? And so, no,
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: it's not loving. to just act like these things are
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: okay and that they're not doing any harm, because they are.
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg of Facebook recently said that we're at a
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: cultural tipping point. It was part of the reason that
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: he took away his fact checkers, which were really just
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: shutting down right-wing conservative speech. Do you think we're at
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: a cultural tipping point? I mean, do you think things
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: are going to get worse? They seem pretty extreme already.
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: You know, it's strange. I think the pendulum is swinging
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: in the other direction. I think with the transing of
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: the kids, I think it was a bridge too far.
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: And I think there are a lot of people who
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: were saying, okay, we went along with you. We learned
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: your pronouns. We embraced the alphabet, you know, but, but,
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: but no, because at first you said, this is not
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: where we're going. This is not where we're, you know, but, but,
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: But no, we're done. We're done. It's over. And so
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: I do believe that the pendulum is swinging. But here's
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: my worry. My worry is that Christians will see the
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: pendulum begin to swing in the other direction and think, oh,
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: it's over. We've weathered the storm. But the pendulum swing
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: is not necessarily the hearts and minds of men turning
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: The pendulum swing is not necessarily repentance. No. And what
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: we're after is not just for the culture to sort
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: of moderate. What we're after is righteousness. What we're after
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: is repentance and faith. Yeah. And so celebrate that the
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: pendulum is swinging, right? But we want hearts and minds. Yeah.
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: Well, look, we'd really encourage people to read your book,
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: Fault Lines. I won't read the rest because I'll muck
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: the word up again. And it's not like being black.
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: What's the next book going to be on? What's the topic,
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: do you think?
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure. There are a couple of things in
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: the works. A couple of things in the works, but
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: we'll see.
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: We'll wait expectantly for that. Vodhi, really appreciate your time.
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: Welcome to New Zealand, as we said. I hope you
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: enjoy your stay here and hope we can get you
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: back again sometime.
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Vodhi.