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Ecuador and Community Based Tourism · GowayPro Travel Tales

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  you
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  Jesse Van Carvalho, or Jassy, is a pioneer in indigenous community-based tourism in the Amazon and the Galapagos Islands, and he is also the founder of Ecuador's Sustainable
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  Tourism Incubator and Network.
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  He is also a winner of the National Geographic World Legacy Awards Engaging Communities.
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  Jassy has worked with GOAE for many years as our partner in many countries in South America.
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  Today we will chat about why South America is simply the best place to visit and how sustainable travel is becoming a more important aspect of tourism.
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  Hey there everyone, I'm Don, Professor Goaie and welcome to the Goaie Pro Travel Tale podcast.
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  Travel far and gravel often.
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  Okay, ready?
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  Yeah, super ready.
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  Hello everyone.
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  Today we're speaking to Jesse Cavalio from Ecuador.
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  Are you in Ecuador at moment, Jesse?
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  I am in Quito, yeah, in my home office.
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  Home office, which I think everyone has a home office now.
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  I'm actually sitting in the basement of Go Way here in Toronto, our HQ in the Go Way studio, as we now affectionately call it.
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  Jesse and I have known each other for quite a few years now.
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  We were introduced when I was looking after the Latin American apartment here at Go Way and
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  through some relationships in country in South America, Jesse and his company, which he still has an interest in and I guess maintains one of the better word tropics.
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  We're taking over the ground operations for GoWay at the time.
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  And we met, I think the first time we met Jesse officially anyways, was in the desert in Peru.
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  Do you remember that?
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  Yes.
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  I remember those, those boogies especially and in the beautiful sunset.
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  Yeah.
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  was an amazing afternoon.
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  Yeah.
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  I was just actually talking to someone,
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  I just was lucky enough to come back from Morocco recently and I was speaking to our product manager for Africa and he was asking about the trip.
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  We were talking about the Sahara Desert visit in Morocco, which was amazing.
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  Had a beautiful sundowner, et cetera.
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  I said, yeah, I think what would be better if they sort of took you further into the Sahara desert.
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  And I said, like when I was in Peru, we took the sandbuggies right into, down near Paracas into the middle of the desert and the company we work with down there to this day Condor.
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  And this is where I first met Jassy, as I just mentioned.
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  They established this huge tent, well, multiple tents and a disco and there's lights, there's everything right It was a very nice fiesta.
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  Yeah.
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  It was, it was a great fiesta.
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  So Jess and I met there and we worked together over the years, primarily with Ecuador, but now Jassy is in a role where he's looking after on behalf of Condor Travel, pretty much
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  all of South America from an inbound point of view, which we were just chatting about off camera.
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  So today we're going to talk about Jesse's history, particularly with community-based tourism and how that may be expanding around South America.
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  And also just why South America is such a, again, I'm biased naturally.
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  think Jesse will be biased because you- We both are, Without a doubt.
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  Talking about why Latin America or South America in particular is such a great destination.
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  But before we get into that detail, Jesse, as I mentioned, you're coming to us from your home office in Ecuador.
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  I know the answer to this question, but I'll ask it for our listening public.
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  You were born in Ecuador.
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  that correct?
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  Yes.
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  Well, first of all, thank you very much for having me and us, right?
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  I represent an organization with lots of people that make these magical moments happen.
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  Like the ones that like that fiesta we had in, in, Ica and in the desert.
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  And, but yeah, I'm very excited and, I feel like a Christmas gift, right?
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  Because it's one of our last.
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  activities work wise before the holiday season.
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  So thank you so much for having me here Don.
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  Yes, I was born in Quito.
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  I lived in Guayaquil for a couple of years and then my parents left because I'm half Brazilian as well.
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  I lived to live in Brazil.
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  Yeah, I went to live in Brazil until I was 15 years old.
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  And then my mother decided to bring kids back to Ecuador.
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  And since then I've been here, you know, with a few
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  parentheses of studying abroad, but yeah, fell in love with the country and, and here I am still hooked with, with Ecuador's beauty and diversity.
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  No kidding.
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  So your language skills, again, your English is exceptional.
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  So I would assume by your, with your Brazilian, history, you speak Portuguese as well.
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  Speak Portuguese.
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  And Portuguese, Spanish and English.
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  Yeah.
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  No, used to understand what we're running.
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  We will get into that in a few minutes, I guess.
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  But no, no, very little key to a and, and very little of everything else.
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  I can get by with some words.
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  As you know, we are world travelers.
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  spend a lot of time on the road doing trade shows and stuff, but yeah, no, no, I'm pretty solvent in Spanish, Portuguese and English, but the rest I'll be lying.
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  Fair enough.
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  Okay.
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  So what,
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  What led you into the world of tourism, I guess, coming out of Ecuador and Brazil for that matter?
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  Well, I guess it takes me back to the comeback from Brazil to Ecuador, which I hated in the first place, right?
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  I was a teenager living in Brazil.
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  Imagine the change coming to the mountains in the Andes, very small country.
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  So I felt like it was sort of a,
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  life downgrade, teenager life downgrade.
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  The dynamics were very different and I was very excited about living in Brazil and starting to party and making friends, etc.
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  But little by little, I lived in the south of Brazil, which is pretty European, as you know, right?
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  It's very Italian, German influence, flat lands, huge country.
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  So you kind of live in your own little space within a big country.
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  You don't have a sense of the diversity that it is and exists in a continental country like Brazil.
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  But in Ecuador, suddenly I see, my God, I live in the mountains, but 30 minutes away, there is a cloud forest.
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  then two hours away, you start seeing the Amazon and then the Pacific coast to the other side.
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  So was like, my God, this place is actually very special.
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  And then I got really excited about this possibility of exploring and doing adventures of obviously as a kid still, but.
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  started very quickly understanding that there was an opportunity to work in tourism and that was kind of my first idea.
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  And then I went to university to try and find what to study tourism related.
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  And I noticed that the offer was pretty focused on more.
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  You could become either a guide or you could become a chef or you could become a hotelier.
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  my mindset is more on the business end.
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  So I decided to change the plan.
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  first is to the business and then do a master's degree in tourism, which I did in Barcelona, Spain, where I lived for a couple of years.
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  And then when I finished, I did my thesis or dissertation, I guess is in English on community-based tourism using Ecuador as an example.
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  So, and that's where it all started.
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  So it's been happening little by little, but it's a lifetime or a professional lifetime of the same kind of focus and interest on.
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  And from memory, you have a brother who, is a chef now and he is also intertwined, guess, local community ingredients into modern day, cooking.
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  Is he still doing that?
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  Yeah.
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  Well, he's, he, he's not now he moved, to live in Germany because during the pandemic we got, European passports due to grandmother's legacy, Brazilian side.
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  so he fell.
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  that there was a huge opportunity as a chef to go and explore, you know how chefs are, man.
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  They are constantly evolving and exploring new cultures and new ingredients and new possibilities.
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  So currently he's in Munich doing his thing.
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  But yeah, but we worked for three years on different gastronomy initiatives here in Ecuador.
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  But what made me fall in love with his art because he's really, chefs are artists, right?
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  It's very technical.
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  But the inspiration comes, I believe, from somewhere else.
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  It's not really the technique, right?
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  It was in our lodge.
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  We own a small lodge in the south of Quito in front of the highest active volcano in the world, actually called Cotopaxi.
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  And so my brother gets there and says, well, if you want to start a nice high-end restaurant in Quito, we have to start getting to know what you can do, right?
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  And it was amazing how he was
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  walking on the garden, picking up fruits, going to the river, finding stones to become the plates and the details.
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  So all of that, figuring what's available within a very close range of space and distance, was what got me incredibly excited.
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  And Alvaro's legacy is still at Chilca Bamba, which is the large name, because in the end of the day, he developed all of these different plates that our local team learned how to
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  do.
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  You can experience some of Alvaro's magic in Chilca Bamba still.
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  Yeah, cause I was lucky enough.
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  think it was the opening night at the restaurant that you and he opened in Quito way back when, again, pre pandemic.
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  it was, yeah, to your point of it, you just discussed it was, it was fantastic.
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  So, and I think one of the highlights that is what you just basically surmised there, that it was all local Ecuadorian roots and fruits and everything else like that, but done with,
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  guess, you know, for the better term, a Western flair.
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  of cooking style and it was an amazing night, beautiful restaurant in itself.
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  So what led you in your studies within tourism when you were doing that to focus on the community based side of things?
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  Yeah, you know, I think there are two things.
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  One is that I was never my intention to stay in Europe, right?
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  I before Barcelona, I leave for a brief period of time in London and then move to Barcelona.
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  But but that to me was kind of a wrap up from
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  university times that I always wanted to come back.
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  always knew that I wanted to work in Ecuador and do my business in Ecuador.
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  So first was, okay, I have to go back, right?
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  That was a decision made.
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  But in the other hand, it was, okay, if I'm going back to work in tourism in Ecuador, what should be my focus?
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  And I always felt like tourism, and we'll be talking about this during this period of time, I guess, it's
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  is not only the attraction of the place, right?
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  We talk a lot about destinations.
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  You don't talk about the people of the destination, right?
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  But I always felt like in order to have an experience or to have an adventure or to get to know a place, you have to connect with the others, right?
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  And Ecuador is very rural, as you know, right?
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  The beauty, even in Quito, it feels a little bit rural, as you know.
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  But whenever you step away from the city, that's where Ecuador brings...
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  becomes alive, right?
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  You just start seeing the rural areas of the Andes or the rural areas of the Amazon, even the Galapagos Islands, it's all very rural.
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  And the people who live there, which I like to call the guardians of the destinations, they are the ones who will be telling you the stories.
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  They are the ones who will be inviting you to their homes to chat and share what they have and why their stories or a gastronomic experience or a weaving story or whatever.
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  So I always felt like
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  the importance of connecting both these two worlds, right?
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  The local population as well as the natural destination.
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  So that's why I started studying community tourism to do these thesis to form a graduation and discovered there was a disconnect between the market and what the communities were
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  aiming for.
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  Like 20 years ago, I'm talking 20 years ago, communities were heavily supported by NGOs doing conservation work and biodiversity.
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  biodiversity conservation or poverty alleviation or social inclusion projects, but not necessarily and giving away money to the tourism, right?
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  Because you have a beautiful waterfall, you have a beautiful tree or you have a beautiful lake.
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  But then by seeing those studies say, well, but who is thinking about the customer coming to see them?
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  Right.
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  And then I felt, okay, there is an opportunity here because we could create something that would bridge.
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  these two worlds, The expectations of the market, you know, the clients, the people that we receive all the time here in our countries and the locals' expectations and how you can
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  create a space where both of them can evenly share experiences, share stories and benefit from each other, right?
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  Because it's not only the traveler going and taking what they want in terms of, you know, photography or a souvenir or their own experience, but it's what is being left.
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  locally for the local community.
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  Right.
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  So, so that's, that's how it all started to, to, to create it, at least in my mind, it sounded like a good idea.
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  was very difficult to implement, but the idea got me hooked and, and trust me, I'm still here.
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  So, so something works on that.
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  Yeah.
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  I find it interesting.
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  Cause I was speaking to someone the other day who has an operation down in South America and they were the same mindset as you.
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  And I asked them this question and I won't so much ask you, but it's more like a statement.
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  And again, this is probably from a built in bias.
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  Cause I spent a lot of my time guiding in South America.
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  I love the region.
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  I know a lot of people down there like yourselves.
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  But to me, seems like South America in particular, you know, back in the day to you, you said about 20 years ago when you were getting into or starting this thing, it seems South
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  America to me consciously or subconsciously has been leading the way on this community based
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  focus.
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  Some people might've done it for a marketing hook.
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  Some people like yourselves and you know, are doing it for the right reasons because they want to see investment in the people and the local economies back in.
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  But do you think it's a fair statement to say that South America has been leading the way with this?
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  Now, again, that's my sort of bias built into that question, but you you speak to a lot of people who do the similar thing.
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  it elsewhere?
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  I know that nowadays exists elsewhere and a lot of Africa has many great examples of community tourism.
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  But I think the biggest difference with South America is that our communities, know, the way South America was was conquered in a way and it has evolved is very new, right?
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  Compared to other nations and other continents where societies are on a different phase of development.
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  In our country, everything is really new.
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  Indigenous communities are finding their way into politics.
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  They're still claiming their rights for ancestral land or cultural rights even.
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  So I believe that the development comes with also a political and social development sort of situation and moment.
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  It's all very young.
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  It's all very still to be discovered.
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  And I'm talking about
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  more than 500 years, but still very young compared to other continents.
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  And I believe that that's where for the communities is different because they are more empowered.
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  They feel more entitled.
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  They understand the world better and they want to do something with their own.
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  It's not like it's only an opportunity because we're very poor and we are okay by keeping giving things or letting myself be managed by someone else.
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  In our case, we never do that.
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  example, we go in and we say, well, why would you like to work in tourism?
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  because we want these and we want that.
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  say that's fantastic because we can help with that.
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  But if we are not invited in, we will never go in.
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  And I think that could be the same sort of situation that exists in all of the other countries in South America.
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  know, local communities, are more aware of their rights.
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  And as a result, they want to control a little bit better the outcome of any
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  initiative that they would develop.
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  so let me ask you this.
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  This is more of a political question and again, politics into history here.
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  Speaking from the Australian side of things with the indigenous population and the aboriginals, as I was growing up, their claim for land rights and the returning of land
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  became louder by their community.
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  Those claims became more accepted by colonial white, for want of a better term, sweeping term Australians and it's slowly gotten
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  better as in we're listening and things are moving in the right direction at least.
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  You mentioned, and again, from a colonial history, ours is younger than South America with the Spanish and the Portuguese, but is there, with particularly your experience dealing
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  with local communities in Ecuador, is there a feeling when a local community approaches you or someone approaches them, which I know happens, do they feel a sense of entitlement
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  because of past wrongs to want to
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  get something back financially or otherwise land back money back?
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  Is it purely a financial decision?
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  Is it a mix of everything?
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  Like, what is the general motivation from their side of the fence to want to get into tourism?
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  I will give you an example of what a shaman told me when I was getting myself working in the Amazon rainforest.
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  know, we are, it's very common in Ecuador and in the Latino, in the Andes world to have shamans that do cleanses and kind of shows you a different way to see a situation.
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  And I had the opportunity to have a chat with one guy, very experienced one.
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  And I say, Hey, I work with the Waorani, blah, blah, blah.
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  was telling my story about the Amazon adventures that I was having.
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  And he said to me, well, Jussie, be very careful, right?
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  Because the Waorani see you as a fat monkey and they want your meat, right?
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  So don't get too excited about thinking you're going to be part of their community because that's most likely not going to happen.
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  And the truth is that history told me that as a fact, I was not part of the community because in the end we worked for more than 20 years with them, but we ended up leaving,
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  right?
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  Yes, believe the interest, it's definitely the opportunity to create an economy out of that activity.
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  It's not only money.
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  We would like to have some resources to be able to, usually they will claim health, education, because there is a lack of presence of the government in remote areas, rural
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  areas.
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  these communities are always struggling for, know, health issues and it's normally for the kids, right?
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  You think about the kids.
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  So it's health for the kids, education for the kids.
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  That's the classic thing they will tell you.
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  I believe, I'm pretty sure they will tell you the same thing nowadays because the problem is still there and definitely is money.
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  And then of course they start seeing the opportunity to have a job and to develop some skills and then to become in some success stories, entrepreneurs of tourism.
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  But the beginning is definitely okay.
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  How much money is involved and how we get by this.
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  Okay.
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  So on back on the other side, the fence from the tourist point of view and from your establishment of community-based tourism, how does that translate into the real world for
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  a, to use the Latin word or the Spanish word, the gringo, the foreigner going into Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia, any of the South American
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  And generally speaking, you'll probably find more community-based tourism in the Andean countries, lesser degree, Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia, for sure.
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  Chile, Argentina, Brazil, probably not as much because they're a bit better developed from a economic point of view, but still there are options down there as well.
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  But let's talk the Andes, Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia.
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  How does that translate for me as a foreigner, having never been there going in?
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  What, what are my expectations?
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  What should I expect?
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  the money that I am paying go away and in turn through the chain, where is that going when, when we're talking community-based tourism?
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  Well, let's, I can talk about my own experience doing community-based because they are community-based experiences and community-based scams, right?
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  And, and, and, and so I think it's important to say, because one of the things that we struggled the most, is seeing bad practices when it's about community tourism, right?
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  And the best practices can be
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  know, abusive companies that are young only using one family or a couple of families and putting up, you know, pictures and doing a very folkloric type of representation of a
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  culture that probably don't even exist anymore because it has evolved into something different.
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  So I would say that first of all, you have to choose correctly, right?
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  And you can look for accolades.
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  can now there are many ways to find who is doing who are doing things better than the others, right?
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  Once that is passed, it's pure magic because the truth is that being able to get into a community either is a remote area of the Amazon rainforest or around here, as you say in
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  the Andes, we have a bunch of experience that we have developed over the years that we call, may introduce you to, right?
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  And we have, I can use an example of Carmita, a dear friend of mine who is a lady in one Kichwa community in the north of Ecuador.
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  who decided to open their home to us.
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  We helped her creating a setup to do cooking classes.
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  And you're basically allowed to go inside her home, meet her husband, her kids, see the way she lives, get into her kitchen, learn how to make this beautiful soup or a dish of
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  trout or hot sauce with her.
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  you're able to, one, learn how to cook a delicacy of the Andes, learn about local ingredients they use.
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  meet the person on a kind of more relaxed environment because you end of the day you are engaging, you're not being giving a presentation or a lecture, but you're actually
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  participating.
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  And in the end of the day, you don't come to Ecuador to meet me, right?
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  You come to meet the real Ecuadorians who are living out there.
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  And I believe the beauty as a tour operator is that whenever you're facilitating that, and that's the part that I love the most about what I do, is creating this whole
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  environment.
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  So you have our guides, which are the most important element of anyone's trip.
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  You should go with the guide and not only directly to a community.
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  So the guide will be facilitating that connection.
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  And you're creating that because it's not easy for you or neither for the local.
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  You're complete strangers getting together to cook a soup.
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  Well, you need some help to get to break the ice and get the conversation going.
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  Because if not, it can be really, really awkward.
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  But
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  I guess going back to your question, if you're coming to a place like Ecuador or Peru or Bolivia without the cultural exchange component, you're missing half of the experience,
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  right?
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  If you're going only to see a field or a mountain, right?
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  I'd say missing more than half when you're talking to the Andean countries in particular.
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  It's, cause like, I guess one of the big attractions as a foreigner to the Andean countries is the culture is so prevalent.
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  Like to a lesser degree in Chile, Argentina and Brazil.
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  And I'm not saying there's no culture, there is definitely culture, but the Andean countries, it's all around you.
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  Like from a big city to a farm, it is there.
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  So to your point by not engaging, it in an organized situation or just talking to locals is a huge, huge miss.
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  And I think it's one of the biggest attractions, particularly the Andean countries in South America.
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  Completely.
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  We like to say that whenever we are onboarding a new client and trying to explain the way we do things, it's like, and we say things like, we're going to challenge your clients a
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  little bit.
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  We want to get them out of a van, out of a train, out of whatever their means of transportation, get them out there and connect.
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  The connections with the locals are.
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  And that's the key of our success, you know, and I'm giving away, you know, the most secret sauce.
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  You know, it's facilitating that connection.
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  That's the whole spirit.
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  Well, again, we've done, we being my family, have three boys who are now young men, young adults, but when they're in their teens, we did a lot of travel, as I know you do with
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  your kids around Ecuador and elsewhere.
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  But one of the biggest highlights for us building into every single trip was what we would
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  generally term a community interaction or trip or data, if you want to do it.
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  And we've done a couple in Ecuador, just north of Otavalo, which the kids still remember to this day.
• 25:41
  There's another one that Gawaii supports very much as with you as Condor, which is, which is Ms.
• 25:48
  Manay in the sacred Valley in Peru.
• 25:53
  And again, I just got back from Morocco and we did a similar thing there with one of the
• 25:58
  community way up in the hills and the Atlas Mountains.
• 26:02
  quite similar to what you just mentioned with your associate friend up in Northern Ecuador into their homes.
• 26:08
  Unbelievably welcoming.
• 26:09
  And they were true Moroccan locals.
• 26:12
  was, you know, even I've done many of these and I still was blown away by the experience.
• 26:17
  was, was fantastic.
• 26:19
  Now, something you mentioned earlier, there's community tourism scams out there.
• 26:26
  So how
• 26:28
  Like obviously, hopefully when a travel agent books with us and in turn, we work with you, you know, they trust go away that we've done our due deal into which we have been working
• 26:36
  with our partners that, you know, they know that what we're working and what we're offering is, I'll use the Australian expression, fair dinkum.
• 26:43
  It's real.
• 26:44
  It's not exploitive in any way, but just, you know, some of our agents might be asking or they might get questions from their agent, sorry, from their clients.
• 26:52
  What are some of the proof, proof of reputable
• 26:57
  partnerships or if someone was to look you up or any one of these other companies up who generally are locally based, are there any certifications, et cetera, that will tell a
• 27:07
  client that yes, this company and in turn their community based tourism is legit?
• 27:14
  Yes, there are.
• 27:15
  We are one of the few local operators certified with an international seal called Preferred by Nation.
• 27:26
  Nature is former Rainforest Alliance that's widely known around sustainability.
• 27:31
  Preferred by Nature is kind of a rebrand and follow up of the same standards that follow the Global Sustainable Tourism Council.
• 27:39
  So it's a very formal structure and a very important organization.
• 27:44
  I think that's the way that will be the formal answer to you because that's something I am particularly proud of because we've been able to certify all of our operation in the
• 27:53
  entire South America, which is a big deal.
• 27:56
  And I'm pretty sure that nowadays we're the only one, but I could be wrong.
• 28:01
  But honestly, nowadays in this Uber connected world that we live with so much information out there and forums like TripAdvisor and all sorts of different spaces, anyone is able to
• 28:15
  look up at something that is not correct right there because everybody's sharing constantly.
• 28:20
  So of course it's...
• 28:22
  It's fantastic for us because whenever you're doing things well, it's very easy for people to find information about yourself, say, okay, these guys are legit.
• 28:31
  And not to say you guys, of course, but whenever, for the general population, I think it's also very easy to figure things out.
• 28:39
  So I think people should make an effort to double check and not just go for the first thing that occurs because nowadays the same problem with how connected and easy is to find
• 28:51
  pretty much everything nowadays, it's very easy to fall in the wrong hands, right?
• 28:55
  You have all of these nowadays, digital marketplaces where you find all sorts of different experiences.
• 29:03
  And I think the next phase should be for those kind of bigger online marketplaces to find a way to certify and curate the offerings there because I believe there is people having a
• 29:16
  very bad time as well by choosing incorrectly
• 29:20
  or because they don't know exactly the details or what they get themselves into.
• 29:25
  Yeah.
• 29:25
  I, this sort of segues nicely to, you know, the sort of age old, well, not age old, it's age old in the recent digital age.
• 29:36
  Why do I need a travel agent?
• 29:37
  And that's one of the reasons that you do, as Jesse just mentioned, of course you can go online and book stuff, but then you have no support.
• 29:43
  have no, you have no insight into what
• 29:48
  the actual product is now with the travel agent who working with a big company like ourselves go away.
• 29:53
  As I say, we do do our due diligence, in regards to who we work with.
• 29:58
  and all the product that we offer and suggest has been tested, tried and tested many people here.
• 30:05
  so, know, it will never be exploitive.
• 30:08
  That's for sure.
• 30:09
  can guarantee that.
• 30:09
  You know, whether it's your cup of tea, you know, maybe, maybe not, you know, because things go wrong on the road, but
• 30:17
  If you work with a travel agent in a big travel company, you then have the backup and the resources for support while in country should something go as I would say, pear shaped on
• 30:26
  you.
• 30:26
  So yeah, I agree with Jesse there in regards to product in general, that if you go direct, of course you can, no problems.
• 30:33
  We have a lot of people who do that.
• 30:34
  We have people who do direct bookings within a greater booking at GoA.
• 30:39
  And I know in speaking out there to our travel partners, so I'm preaching to the choir here, but travel agents,
• 30:45
  will remain vitally important to people having good experiences and getting good knowledge on local product.
• 30:53
  Now on that point, you've obviously been involved in this side of travel for a long time.
• 30:58
  So what are some of your personal success stories within Ecuador and maybe on the broader scope now with Condor in the other countries outside the Andes in regards to
• 31:07
  community-based tourism?
• 31:10
  Wow.
• 31:11
  Yeah, well, I was 20 years ago,
• 31:14
  proudly known as a jungle boy.
• 31:16
  And my adventure in tourism started in the Amazon rainforest, right?
• 31:21
  And that's where I learned pretty much everything I know about tourism, right?
• 31:26
  Because I was dropped in the middle of the jungle, working with one of the last contacted tribes in the Amazon called the Waorani people.
• 31:35
  And it was with the Waorani where I learned some key things about this business, And which is...
• 31:42
  the respect for the local community, the inclusions that we're talking about, the limits of what should we do, what we shouldn't be doing, right?
• 31:52
  Long story short, we ended up building an award-winning ecologe called the Waorani Ecologe that we were able, we're very lucky to run for almost 10 years.
• 32:02
  One thing led to another, we ended up building another lodge called the Sequoia Lodge.
• 32:06
  The Waorani were kind of...
• 32:08
  the hunters and gatherers of this remote part of the Amazon.
• 32:11
  Then I went to the Northern Amazon of Ecuador, ended up building a large, a small lodge with the Sequoia people, which were the magicians of the forest from my perspective, at
• 32:20
  least because they were more savvy in the uses of medicinal plants and ayahuasca and all that kind of more magical world.
• 32:27
  And then we moved on to the Galapagos where I was able to create one of the first
• 32:34
  island hoppings and land-based Galápagos adventures, which is also part of this background of community, how we can get the residents, the local people who live in the Galápagos
• 32:43
  more involved in tourism.
• 32:45
  We created the Galápagos walking tours in Isabela Island.
• 32:47
  And then I was very lucky to participate in the development of the first community-based operator in the Galápagos in Floriana Island, which is the remotest island and the
• 32:57
  smallest population of concentration of people in the islands, which is in...
• 33:03
  in the town of Floriana and the development of the Galapagos Magic, which is another more conservation site, sided camp.
• 33:11
  And lastly, my last baby here in Ecuador, at least, is Chilcabamba, right?
• 33:17
  This mountain lodge in Cotopaxi where we are also, even though the business model is a little bit different because in general, what we do is associations with local communities
• 33:27
  and local entrepreneurs.
• 33:28
  Chilcabamba, we decided as a family to invest.
• 33:33
  Now, luckily, just this year, a few months ago, we won this award in the UK because of this approach of creating the experiences around the lodge using local people.
• 33:46
  So we have now multiple businesses that operate around Chilka Bamba.
• 33:52
  So it's multiple steps that made my life very lucky and I would say successful because
• 34:00
  I'm still having funds or that will be my determination of success.
• 34:05
  it's all community related.
• 34:07
  If you think about it, and you're making me think about it, is everything has something to do with one local community that were all very different from each other.
• 34:16
  Yeah, no, I definitely say that's a sign of success other than the financial benefits to everyone involved.
• 34:22
  that's, guess that is it or not.
• 34:24
  That is it.
• 34:25
  That is one of the big pluses like with your lodge at Chocobamba.
• 34:28
  The lodge itself mightn't be
• 34:30
  community, but it's now created a ecosystem, a financial ecosystem around it with, as you say, the, you basically the local village is being involved in feeding into that as well.
• 34:42
  And of course the, uh, the stuff in the Amazon is truly community based and still running strong after all these years.
• 34:49
  One of the things important to you mentioned there is the Galapagos.
• 34:52
  A lot of people might not realize that the Galapagos one, it's a national park, all of it, but two, it's also private.
• 34:58
  land, a lot of it's private land and there have been people living out there for many, many years.
• 35:02
  So it's not just the wildlife you see in all the photos and videos.
• 35:06
  There are people out there who have lived there, are living there outside of tourism though, feeding into it as well.
• 35:11
  And as Jesse mentioned as well, in my time involved with Latin America, it was primarily cruise based adventures.
• 35:19
  Now it's turned into that as well as a land base, which Jesse mentioned he was one of the pioneers of.
• 35:26
  And I stayed at your lodge many years ago.
• 35:29
  And it sits right in the heart of the giant tortoise reserve as well.
• 35:35
  And from memory, I'm hoping it's still there, but we had dinner in a, like a lava cave.
• 35:40
  that still a lava cave?
• 35:42
  That's all still a happening thing?
• 35:44
  It's still happening.
• 35:45
  Yeah.
• 35:45
  The truth is that the Galapagos magic is it's before being an African safari style camp, which is basically the sort of model that we decided for that particular place.
• 35:59
  It's is a giant tortoise sanctuary and the beauty and on an issue come now and see it because the beauty of it is now the next phase has been to reintroduce the original
• 36:10
  habitat of the giant tortoises.
• 36:11
  So we clean 20 hectares of that same property.
• 36:15
  We brought in indigenous plants and trees like this calesia tree.
• 36:21
  So we did this full reforestation program and created a self guided path where you can see
• 36:28
  hundreds of giant tortoises.
• 36:29
  So yeah, we created this spa for giant tortoises with the original habitat where they used to live, which is great accomplishment, as well as obviously our restaurant in the tube
• 36:42
  and the beautiful setup.
• 36:44
  So yeah, fun things to do, but very adapted to the local realities, right?
• 36:48
  So that's usually what we try to think about as well.
• 36:51
  Be very respectful to where we're establishing ourselves.
• 36:55
  So Chilkabamba will be completely different from
• 36:58
  Galapagos magic in the highlands of the Galapagos Islands or Floriana lava lodge right on the bay of this beautiful island as well.
• 37:06
  So, yeah, so for those out there listening who are considering the Galapagos or clients are asking about it again, cruises are generally the way most people will envisage the
• 37:15
  trip to the Galapagos, but you can quite easily do a land only island hopping or what we often recommend is you do your cruise and then spend a couple of days at a hotel or lodge.
• 37:27
  on one of the islands just to chill out and to experience some of the things that Jesse just mentioned.
• 37:31
  And I don't think there's anywhere else in the islands that you can literally walk amongst to the number of the giant tortoises or have a beautiful, it was a beautiful dinner in a
• 37:41
  volcanic cave.
• 37:43
  was, again, I remember it to this day as if it was yesterday.
• 37:46
  And I don't remember a lot of things as if it was yesterday.
• 37:48
  So that obviously stood out.
• 37:51
  just in your role now,
• 37:54
  Again, we've had a bit of a focus on Ecuador for obvious reasons.
• 37:58
  Where else do you sort of look after in South America?
• 38:01
  Again, we've mentioned Peru and Bolivia, but do you also look after or have an oversight?
• 38:09
  have offices in the Galapagos Islands, in Quito, in the Ecuadorian capital.
• 38:14
  We have in Lima, in Peru, in Cusco, obviously is where most of the magic of any adventure in Peru happens.
• 38:23
  then obviously Arequipa in La Paz in Bolivia, and then the Southern countries.
• 38:29
  think amazing Brazil where I was very lucky to spend this August, an entire month working in our office in Santiago, Chile, and Buenos Aires in Argentina.
• 38:44
  Where is the office in Brazil?
• 38:45
  should say not where it was.
• 38:47
  is it?
• 38:47
  The office in Brazil is in the center of Rio de Janeiro.
• 38:52
  Rio.
• 38:53
  Yeah.
• 38:54
  Yeah.
• 38:55
  That's a very nice.
• 38:55
  That's that's why I say, well, very hard to work.
• 38:59
  I got to tell you.
• 39:00
  Yeah.
• 39:02
  Stunning city.
• 39:05
  So again, you've also mentioned that your roots, pardon the pun, were in the Amazon in Ecuador.
• 39:10
  A lot of people may not realize as well.
• 39:12
  Well, hopefully you've realized now through this, you can visit the Amazon from Ecuador.
• 39:16
  So one of the highlights of Ecuador is it says four regions, which you can do on one trip.
• 39:23
  So you can go to the Galapagos region one, the coast, the Andes, and of course the Amazon.
• 39:27
  Now the Amazon and the Amazon basin runs into the runs into the interior of Peru, touches Bolivia, a of Columbia as well.
• 39:34
  And of course Brazil.
• 39:36
  So with all your experience in the Amazon, from a traveler's point of view, regardless of where they go, and there are differences if you go to the Brazilian Amazon versus
• 39:43
  Peruvian, Ecuadorian, whatever, we won't get into that much detail right now, but what should someone be aware of if they're looking
• 39:51
  to go to the Amazon in tips and tricks when visiting?
• 39:56
  That's a good question.
• 39:58
  get a lot of the typical question is if it rains in the rainforest because the Amazon is really rainforest, right?
• 40:05
  So, so yeah, so be prepared for the rain.
• 40:09
  Right.
• 40:09
  I think, I think that's important because we get, you get a time where people ask when it rains, the more or the less I say, well, it depends on the time of day, right?
• 40:19
  So the truth is that that's one important fact, right?
• 40:24
  Funny enough, the Andean Amazon, know, because we're in the headwaters of the Amazon River, right?
• 40:31
  And that's why the Amazon is called the Amazon is because it's an Amazon River that finishes all the way down in Brazil in the Atlantic.
• 40:38
  But here in the headwaters where I live, the Amazon actually gets a little bit cold.
• 40:42
  So people would expect like this crazy heat, but not necessarily, right?
• 40:46
  We in certain parts of the Amazon of
• 40:48
  of Ecuador at least, it gets a little bit chilly at night.
• 40:51
  you know, sometimes bringing a little jacket is helpful.
• 40:56
  And I think the most important part, I always split wildlife and cultures, right?
• 41:02
  And first the wildlife.
• 41:03
  People, when they come to the Amazon, they would expect what they see maybe on TV, like, they're going to be seeing jaguars and these big mammals.
• 41:11
  But the truth is that it's very difficult to see wildlife in the Amazon, right?
• 41:16
  It's packed with wildlife.
• 41:18
  But the funny thing and what I like to say is like, be prepared for the wildlife to watch you.
• 41:22
  Right.
• 41:23
  And I think that's, that's, that's cool thing because you're going to be seeing quite a lot from tiny little insects to all of these big, big animals.
• 41:32
  So, so you have to be very patient.
• 41:34
  You have to be very quiet.
• 41:35
  You have to dress correctly.
• 41:37
  You know, we have our packing list of suggestions in terms of, you know, dark clothes, you know, you have to blend in with nature.
• 41:44
  You don't want to stand out with, with jewelry or, or
• 41:47
  bright colors because you're going to scare away the wildlife because they're going to be seeing you, right?
• 41:53
  And they're going to be hiding even further.
• 41:56
  I think that's one element, you know, but I think it's a perfect combination for a wildlife enthusiast coming, for example, to Ecuador and going to the Galapagos for sure.
• 42:06
  The ideal component to combine is the Amazon.
• 42:09
  So you're going to have your full on wildlife experience, right?
• 42:14
  And I guess the other one, when you think about Amazon, you think about
• 42:18
  wildlife only.
• 42:19
  But from my experience, and maybe I'm a little bit biased because I'm in love with the Amazon people, but the magic of these millennia cultures that live, know, Ecuador
• 42:29
  recognized by law, by its own constitution, these indigenous groups that some are still uncontacted tribes and you have uncontacted tribes in Brazil, in Bolivia, in Peru.
• 42:41
  So to me,
• 42:44
  That's the heritage, Being able to see the wildlife, but experience the Amazon through the eyes of the local people, it's priceless.
• 42:51
  Being able to see how in such a rough environment, with the difficulties to move around with hunting and gathering and getting to know the plants, with that diversity of plants,
• 43:03
  and believe in tune in such a simple lifestyle, because nothing works, right?
• 43:09
  Everything started breaking.
• 43:11
  If you're...
• 43:12
  like a month in the Amazon, you're not going to have a cell phone, you're not going to have a camera and nothing, everything will stop working.
• 43:17
  Right.
• 43:17
  And then you're pure in nature and that's, and that's what you're going to be seeing with these people that you're going to meet.
• 43:25
  And I think that's something that people usually don't think about.
• 43:29
  And they are quite surprised when they have the opportunity to hang out with the local guide in a, on a trail or, or visit the local community or something like that.
• 43:40
  Those will be like my two cents.
• 43:42
  Okay.
• 43:42
  Well, that's good.
• 43:43
  That's perfect.
• 43:43
  That's, you know, that's perfect insider information for someone who really knows Amazon on what to be aware of.
• 43:49
  I'm sort of changing tact a little bit here.
• 43:52
  I believe it was somewhat recently, Ecuador went through some political instability with some government movements and changes, which is from the outside can look very scary.
• 44:01
  I'm sure it was, you know, in there wasn't the best of times, but it's like not an uncommon thing to happen.
• 44:08
  in some Latin American countries.
• 44:09
  shouldn't, it shouldn't dissuade people from traveling there.
• 44:12
  But if someone's going to ask us an intern you about political stability.
• 44:18
  And again, I think just recently it's been made news that the new president of Argentina has just balanced the budget, all this type of thing.
• 44:24
  So again, most news we hear here will, you know, will always be the negative side of things.
• 44:29
  So a general overview or your opinion on the political stability of South America, not just Ecuador.
• 44:36
  some of the other countries.
• 44:37
  Should it be a concern to people traveling down into the region because of that?
• 44:42
  I have no idea what stability will be because the Latinos, we don't live in political stability.
• 44:47
  We live in political dynamics, right?
• 44:52
  It's in constant movement.
• 44:54
  And it's part of who we are as Latinos.
• 44:59
  We operate differently.
• 45:02
  I wouldn't say we're used to living in constant changes, but we are definitely always affected by
• 45:12
  our own bad decisions, right?
• 45:14
  And when we change our minds, we decide to change presidents and that's what happens constantly, right?
• 45:19
  So I would say that we shouldn't be measured only by the political stability, right?
• 45:26
  Even though sometimes that is scary and mostly because the current way the press operates is by highlighting only the bad and not the positive because there is, I've never seen a
• 45:37
  follow-up of a bad news.
• 45:40
  on how the situation changed in Ecuador, for example.
• 45:43
  It's always a new bad thing, but how that bad thing became into something better?
• 45:48
  Never.
• 45:51
  So I would say that I would invite everybody listening here and everybody trying to understand our politics that don't judge us because of that, because it's part of how the
• 46:03
  Latinos are.
• 46:04
  We're dynamic.
• 46:07
  We don't get that overwhelmed with the changes.
• 46:11
  We're used to a constant change, right?
• 46:13
  So that would be kind of my general pitch, but specifically Ecuador has had a very difficult year and that is a fact.
• 46:21
  We had a rough January, January 10 to be more precise.
• 46:27
  We had a security situation that was brought to the light across the world.
• 46:35
  And even for Ecuadorians were very scary because we never seen something like that.
• 46:39
  So we were shocked by the fact that some, some bandidos could go into a TV channel and make a show and kidnap for like five minutes, the presenters.
• 46:48
  that suddenly made us realize, my God, what is going on in the lowlands?
• 46:52
  Right.
• 46:52
  And, and since then, I think we've been processing the fact that, well, actually there are some problems in the specific areas of Ecuador.
• 47:02
  Right.
• 47:02
  And that's another problem that you usually have.
• 47:05
  with international press because it's Ecuador has a security problem.
• 47:09
  Well, yes, the problem is in Ecuador, but on a very specific area of Ecuador, which is, and so we've been navigating that process.
• 47:19
  And in a way, I feel that untapping that situation is allowing for us as citizens, as well as the government to tackle the problem, right?
• 47:30
  Because
• 47:30
  What I said, that doesn't happen overnight.
• 47:33
  So that's probably something that has been cooking for many, many years and suddenly came to the public.
• 47:38
  So now that we are aware of it, we are taking control out of the situation, but it's not something that happens overnight either.
• 47:46
  So we're obviously aware, but you you mentioned Milay in Argentina, know, the news seems like he presents like a very strange character, but I've been talking to my local partners
• 47:58
  in Argentina.
• 47:59
  And they're actually seeing the changes as a positive thing for an economy that seemed out of control for many, years.
• 48:08
  Brazil, the same thing.
• 48:10
  Now we have Lula who ran Brazil for many years and then he left and another came and now he's back.
• 48:16
  And I was in Brazil for a month and I've never seen a country so stable and fine-tuned in terms of growth and happiness of the people.
• 48:26
  Bolivia, Peru, it's always something happening different.
• 48:29
  It's part of our lifestyle.
• 48:32
  Yeah.
• 48:32
  like I didn't mean, or I don't mean to infer that it's any worse anywhere else.
• 48:37
  It's just obviously, you know, people will ask us about that.
• 48:40
  And, if you look at the, if you look at the political environment here in North America recently, it's just been, it's been as volatile as anywhere else in the world.
• 48:48
  Just like we're recording this on December 17th, 24, and the finance minister of Canada just resigned and there's political turmoil here.
• 48:58
  January 6th in the U S was a pretty big event.
• 49:02
  so it's by no means inferring that there's, there's any reason you should not travel to Latin America, but it is a question.
• 49:08
  Well, I think it's a very fair question.
• 49:10
  And, and, and our role, Dawn, because you are not the one who needs to understand what's going on.
• 49:16
  We are the ones responsible to inform you and that's our part of the job.
• 49:20
  So I would say that as, as your partner here, first of all, we are trying to keep up and being
• 49:28
  informed properly, we go on the ground and we understand if there is actual a problem or not.
• 49:35
  And we'll be the first ones to let you know, listen, I think that this area for now shouldn't be visited.
• 49:41
  So let's try something different.
• 49:43
  And at the same time, and most of the times we're like, yeah, that sounded really bad on the press, but this is the reality and it's perfectly fine to come down to Ecuador.
• 49:52
  Right.
• 49:53
  So, and, it's our role.
• 49:55
  to communicate very quickly and objectively each of the situations that we're experiencing here.
• 50:03
  Yeah, and over recent years, and I mean probably the last 20 years, don't think there's ever been a country that has been a no-go other than COVID, course, where the world was a
• 50:12
  no-go.
• 50:13
  The only exclusion to that would be Venezuela.
• 50:15
  But even now, I'm seeing people starting to travel back into Venezuela.
• 50:18
  We are not ourselves endorsing that at this stage.
• 50:21
  But I guess my...
• 50:24
  Yeah, the sum this little subject matter up is like in all my time dealing with Latin America, it's been one of the very few regions of the world that has always been open and
• 50:32
  functioning, albeit with its own little internal hiccups.
• 50:35
  So have no fear in hitting South America or Central America for a getaway.
• 50:39
  You will be fine and safe and should something pop up, as Jesse said, either we will know, they will tell us and we will obviously make the call based on on ground situations.
• 50:50
  make sure as always that our client's safety is first and foremost in our collective minds.
• 50:55
  So as we wrap up here, Jesse, is there anything exciting happening on the horizon from Ecuador's point of view, because that's obviously your passion and your home, as well as
• 51:06
  the greater area of South America from new product, new, you know, there's some events coming up.
• 51:10
  Is there anything on the horizon that GoA and in turn our traveling partners out there should be aware of?
• 51:16
  Yes.
• 51:18
  Well,
• 51:20
  We're trying to declare, you know, we are very concerned about this whole, you know, there are local problems like the politics that we're talking about and dynamics, but then
• 51:29
  there's climate change, right?
• 51:31
  And we are looking at the subject with a different lens.
• 51:36
  We are trying to bring to light the effects of climate change in South America and how we are able to highlight the importance of some unique ecosystems, right?
• 51:47
  So for example, in Ecuador,
• 51:48
  we're gonna be sharing a lot about the cloud forest, which is, know, whenever the cloud forest is drier, then this mega diverse small ecosystem might be changing.
• 51:59
  So we want to highlight the specific thematics.
• 52:03
  In the end is we're gonna be talking a lot about water.
• 52:05
  And you mentioned Miss Minai, which is this beautiful local community we support in the plateau, in the highlands of Peru, in the Silicon Valley, as you said.
• 52:16
  And we're just talking about, guys, what is the plan for next year?
• 52:20
  What we should be working on?
• 52:21
  What would you like to concern about?
• 52:22
  And they say, well, the lack of water, right?
• 52:25
  And I was like, my God, well, we should work on those subjects.
• 52:29
  So we are very focused on, I would like to see us and we're gonna be focusing a lot on nature, right?
• 52:36
  And going back to nature and understanding how climate change is affecting the way people live and how we can highlight and educate people on the importance.
• 52:45
  of preserving these unique ecosystems of South America.
• 52:51
  I'm personally very excited about that.
• 52:53
  As you might know, Tropic is tagging along Condor's regional presence.
• 53:00
  we are expanding into, we already are in Peru working with local communities and now we're expanding into Chile.
• 53:06
  And I couldn't be more excited about Torres del Paine and all that area and.
• 53:12
  Fuma Conservation Initiative.
• 53:13
  So we're getting involved with lots of different wildlife and nature conservation projects.
• 53:19
  Wow.
• 53:20
  Yeah.
• 53:21
  Just dropping those names, Doris, I miss the region so much.
• 53:28
  It's sort of an up and coming maybe now.
• 53:31
  I've traveled to Peru a gazillion times and the main gateway in Tumachapichu is Cusco Airport, of course, in the town of Cusco itself.
• 53:41
  And there was many, many years talk of creating another or an international airport.
• 53:48
  sort of halfway between, Chinchera, I think I've heard the name slip my mind.
• 53:54
  And I think the last time I was in Peru, which was probably about four years ago, as we drove towards Saka Valley, I'd seen them starting to clear land around Chinchera for this
• 54:03
  airport.
• 54:03
  Now it had been on and off for many, years.
• 54:06
  Is it still a happening thing?
• 54:08
  Is it still planning to open?
• 54:11
  Yes, the plan is there like the new terminal in Lima.
• 54:17
  That is actually happening at the end of the year, but there's no further developments in Chinchero.
• 54:23
  There's still there.
• 54:24
  I keep seeing the land, but I think the project is being delayed for multiple reasons.
• 54:29
  As you know, there's some controversy, right?
• 54:34
  Some people are forward, some people, especially in the Secret Valley, don't want it.
• 54:39
  We are keeping track of it, but we are not seeing anything in the news and there's no fast tracking there.
• 54:45
  So it's still probably in the same situation as you remember.
• 54:49
  Okay, good.
• 54:50
  Again, that was more of a personal question out of curiosity and I'm one of the people who'd be against that.
• 54:54
  But let's get into that political argument about that.
• 54:59
  Okay, Jesse, I'd like to thank you very much for your time.
• 55:01
  That was an extremely insightful conversation.
• 55:04
  Like, on behalf of Gavi, very proud to be working with you, Tropic and Condor.
• 55:08
  because of the work you do now and your views and philosophies that you've basically grown up with since you were a student and you started your company.
• 55:18
  The fact that you're working so well and so hard with local community projects before it was a trendy thing to do is kudos to you.
• 55:26
  Can Ali do good for everyone involved, for peace of mind for local communities and their true health, their financial security for the future.
• 55:36
  Thank you for everything you do in that respect and everything Condor is doing on the the larger scale outside of Ecuador, particularly your work in the Galapagos, which is such a
• 55:46
  pristine, very, special places.
• 55:49
  I know you will attest to as well.
• 55:51
  So again, thank you for your partnership with Goa.
• 55:54
  Thank you for your time today.
• 55:56
  And thank you, everyone else out there for listening in.
• 55:58
  We appreciate your time and we will talk to you soon.
• 56:02
  Don, I am the grateful one.
• 56:04
  Thank you very much.
• 56:04
  It's.
• 56:05
  What we do is only possible thanks to people like you and go away.
• 56:09
  We are here to serve you and be a partner.
• 56:12
  And, and I am honestly just simple guy is a huge team behind my back doing all the magic happens.
• 56:19
  So thank you for the opportunity to represent them here and for, for your space.
• 56:24
  Our pleasure, Jesse.
• 56:26
  Thank you everyone for listening in again.
• 56:27
  Have a good one.