Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Robert Valentine about his choice of The Abominable Snowmen (4/6)

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Talks to Robert Valentine about his choice of The Abominable Snowmen (4/6) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:23
  None hamster with a blunt pen knife
• 0:35
  for doing quicker quicker. Quicker Welcome back to a
• 0:40
  Hamster with a blunt pen Knife, the Doctor Who Commentary
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  Podcast. My name is Rob Valentine and I'm
• 0:45
  here with Mr. Joe Ford to discuss Doctor Who, The
• 0:49
  Abominable Snowman, and I'm getting better at these.
• 0:53
  You'll get that was that was it. You're a pro now.
• 0:56
  Well, I I just, I'm just a lot less sleepy than I was for the
• 1:00
  last lot. How are you?
• 1:03
  I'm absolutely fine. I've got cheese and grapes and a
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  gin and tonic, you know, and I'm hanging out with you for the
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  evening. I am dandy.
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  Lovely. I have a glass of water and I'm
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  hanging out with you, so that's also good.
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  Glass of water, someone holding back.
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  Well, I know, I know. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a, it's a
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  rocking Friday night around my gaffe.
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  Was especially a treat for me today because it's been a
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  particularly hard week, especially at work.
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  So so this is basically my reward at the end of the week.
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  Oh no, and and and quite right too, and from what you've told
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  me, well earned. But so Kate to get into the
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  single look at me leading the leading the way, like I do
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  understand. But once you've finished your
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  great, you have been you have been doing some research because
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  I did we did talk about maybe you watching the the Nigel Neil
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  film and stuff. Did you get?
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  Around I did, now I can only find it on Dailymotion.
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  Yeah, yeah. Exactly.
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  It was a it wasn't the best copy in the world, you know, but the
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  picture was a bit compressed, but I certainly got the gist of
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  it and I liked it a lot. So I took a few notes as I was
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  watching the movie. I, I, I thought that it had a
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  real sense of atmosphere and claustrophobia, given that their
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  scenes set in these vast and actually out on location in
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  these snowy ways. It really felt sort of contained
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  and claustrophobic, which which works for me because that's my
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  kind of movie. And there was loads of sequences
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  right where they were going from location to studio.
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  And it was like, it was not like when Doctor Who goes from
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  location to studio. It was effortless.
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  Like 57 you say this was made. Yeah, they had more money than
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  Doctor Who, but also, you know, it's it's it's a Hammer film.
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  So it's, you know, a budget, but a limited one.
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  Yeah. And I think the location filming
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  in the Pyrenees, I think it was for those big mountain shots.
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  But yeah, it's a, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a really good slice
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  of Nigel Knee because it's got a lot of his concerns, you know,
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  like, but in that one, obviously the Yeti are, they're a
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  different branch of the broader humanity, shall we call it, and
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  a more, a more enlightened branch than ours, because our,
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  because we're the ones who invented the, the bomb.
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  And then effectively, the moral of this was that they're just
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  waiting it out until we wipe ourselves out and then they're
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  going to reclaim the planet. Or at least that's that's the
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  conclusion that Peter Cushing drew.
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  And I liked him a lot. I mean, I love Peter Cushing
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  than anything, but he's a far more serious character than the
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  Doctor is, isn't he? Oh, oh, oh, yes, yeah, yeah.
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  But it's interesting because the end of it, when he says he
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  didn't find the Yeti, it's a bit ambiguous, but I think it's like
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  his mind has been that they've used their psychic powers.
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  That's the other thing that the Yeti are have got a great, the
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  Yeti have a great intelligence. But yeah, but there is a, there
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  is a kind of a psychic element to them, you know, and that's
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  something like I said last time that even gets mentioned in the
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  Goon show because, you know, it was, you know, it's, it's, yeah,
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  it's all that kind of Mystic Tibetan stuff is kind of wrapped
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  up with the Yeti. What was what was apparent was
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  when you've got a lot more money, there's a lot more stress
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  on the expedition. So there's there is lots of
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  sequences of them going up Tundras isn't there?
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  Yeah, it's. It's Yeah, sorry, go ahead.
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  Go ahead. But I just thought the
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  soundscape as well was incredible in this movie.
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  There's sequences like in Howling Blizzards and things,
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  and it sounds like someone's screaming, like it's really
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  quite disturbing. Yeah, it really is.
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  And it's sort of the structure, or rather the kind of the
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  locations. It's an inverse of the Doctor
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  Who story where So it starts in the Lamasterie and then the main
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  thing is an expedition into the mountains, whereas in Doctor Who
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  they kind of start in the the mountains, you know, the very UN
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  snowy mountains, but then they kind of once they retreat to the
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  monastery, that's you based on the siege.
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  So it's it's flips it. Those early scenes felt very
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  like the Abominable snowman, though in the in the in the
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  monastery. Oh yeah, design wise and things
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  like, and the chanting and stuff like that.
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  I was like, OK, The Who directed to Bolton?
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  Gerald Blake. Blake was definitely paying
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  attention to this movie when he was sort of creating the
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  atmosphere. Yeah, huge, hugely in the
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  culture at the time, still in 67.
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  I remember that, you know, as an 80s kid, the whole idea that
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  might be Yeti was still, it was kind of still a hangover from
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  like, you know, 70s woo woo Arthur C Clark type stuff.
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  But it still wasn't so beyond the realms of the possible.
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  Now it's kind of seen more as more of a more of a fantasy.
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  But in the mid 20th century, it was still kind of, you know, the
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  sense that, you know, they might be out there was still kind of
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  far more plausible. Well, and the last thing I loved
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  about this movie was I liked the fact you had the two characters.
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  I'm going to try and get the name.
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  Is it Rollison and Friend? And they had two opposing
• 6:41
  motives for tracking down the Yeti.
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  One was scientific curiosity and the other was just complete
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  sensationalism. He wanted to sell it to the
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  papers and, you know, make a big splash about it.
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  Yeah. One that had sort of negative
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  motivations was murdered or was killed by the end of the movie.
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  Whereas Cushion, who had effectively pure motivations,
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  was rewarded with actually finding the Yeti and and seeing
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  them. I thought that was quite nicely
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  done. Yeah, but also he was kind of
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  supremely humbled when he meets the Yeti as well, you know,
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  because they're like these kind of like, was this weird kind of
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  like God like almost like parent figures looking because Peter.
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  So, you know, Peter. So there's Peter Cushing.
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  Peter. So the Goon show again.
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  That's still. Yeah.
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  Yeah. Peter Cushing is, you know, he's
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  not he's not, he's not a small guy, but he just dwarfed by the
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  these Yetis looking down at him. And he's kind of there alone,
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  but kind of having to be bear responsibility for the rest of
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  the human race, you know? And there was one sequence I
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  loved where the the Yeti hand was rummaging in the tent, do
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  you remember, and grabbing the gun, it was so tense.
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  And and the guy. Was this 1957 movie scaring me
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  as much? And the guy is just sitting in
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  the tent staring almost. He's so terrified he's just
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  almost just calmly staring. That music drops away at that
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  point as well. Yeah, it's the best way to do
• 8:11
  horror. Yeah, don't overdo it.
• 8:13
  Yeah, yeah, but lots of Nigel Neal.
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  It's like hyper hyper masculine men yelling at each other like
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  the Stone Tape. There was some long dialogue
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  scenes as well. Yes, all those smart dialogues.
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  I don't mind my last. It's brilliant.
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  Yeah. My last sort of thought on this
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  movie was that those yetis have the most incredible eyebrows
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  that I've ever seen in my life. I mean, whoever was doing
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  costume and make up, well, a bit went crazy.
• 8:38
  Did you see them? Yeah, yeah.
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  It's what the design is great. They are.
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  They are quite similar to, you know, Harry and Hensons, AKA
• 8:46
  Bigfoot Hensons with John Lithgow and David Suchet.
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  I saw that at the cinema in 1987 when I was 7.
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  I still can't think of John Lithgow.
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  You know, without thinking about when he played that serial
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  killer in Dexter. Did you ever watch that?
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  Oh, I did. I did.
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  Absolutely terrifying. He's he's played a bunch of
• 9:04
  scary people at this time, but. Anyway, sorry about.
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  Harry, Harry. Harry Henderson, AKA Bigfoot.
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  The design is not dissimilar. They could be, you know, country
• 9:17
  cousins, you know? It's, it's a little, well, they
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  look very disabled. They don't know anything like
• 9:22
  the ones from the Abominable Snowman don't.
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  You, that's the other thing, Yeah.
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  But yeah, one thing Doctor Who didn't emulate from the
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  Abominable Stone Man is the the Yeti design.
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  Could you imagine if those teddy bears had shown up in that
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  movie? No, actually.
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  Neva Canal. But it was no.
• 9:44
  I thought it was a great movie, actually.
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  I can't remember the last time I watched a movie from the 50s,
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  but that has almost took as Mark reliably informs me, he's got a
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  lot of hammer on the shelf that we are going to be dipping into
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  the archives in the future. There could even be a hamster
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  strand if you take OH. God, don't give me ideas, all
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  right? Well, you could, you could, you
• 10:07
  could pick all the hammers that Doctor Who directly reference
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  so. Starring actors from Doctor Who.
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  I mean, Peter Cushions and all of them so.
• 10:17
  Well, yeah, except, well, exactly.
• 10:19
  So you could, you could take the mummy and then do a side by side
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  with Pyramids of Mars. That's.
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  That's a great idea. Oh, you entice me, Rob.
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  I I. I, I always, I, I just adore
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  you. Look at any, look at any any
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  work of art and see, you know, look at where it came from and
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  look at what have then influenced you.
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  Know well, we did a we did a lot of digging on that last time.
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  We told I can tell you though, someone who hasn't done a lot of
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  digging and that sort of ilk. And that is the two gentlemen
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  from the Yeti podcast that you also, well, you you didn't
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  recommend that one to me. You said don't listen to it, but
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  I did. Yeah.
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  Oh, you. Did I did.
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  You. You have.
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  You've taken it seriously. Yeah, I.
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  Did. And I did have a lot of time
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  this week. Take the compliment, all right?
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  Yeah, I didn't like it. And I'll tell you why I didn't
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  like it is because it was sort of the episode I listened to was
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  about this Yeti hair that they thought they found.
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  Have you heard that one? Oh yeah, so listen to the.
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  And they and they go off to Bhutan.
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  They're fucking nerve when they say, oh, we've managed to
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  convince the the BBC to send us to Bhutan.
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  But they're rich, the pair of them.
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  I did a bit of research. They could have funded their own
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  trip. You're right.
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  This weird imperialist attitude we, we will discover.
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  We will be the first people to discover this great creature.
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  Yeah, there's a yeah, there's there is a kind of the whole in
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  in our post imperial society, you know, like, you know,
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  Europe, Europeans kind of have, you know, having nowhere,
• 12:01
  nowhere else to explore, wanting to kind of use things like the
• 12:06
  Yeti is like just questing beasts for their own, you know,
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  to to live out their own fantasies of being, you know,
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  the big white hunters. They can't be anymore.
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  I'm not, you know, that's. But the trouble makes me.
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  Yeah, makes me. Comfortable create drama nothing
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  because they really have nothing and so they were going this is
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  the hair of a Yeti or is it no, it's not it's not going to be
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  known but it could be you're. Going to make this way through
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  be told no it isn't. And the way that they were
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  talking to experts, I mean, I was listening to this guy.
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  I'm going to turn this off in a minute.
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  This is this. They actually asked the
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  scientists this question. This is how they preface the
• 12:45
  question. As a scientist, what conclusion
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  do you draw from the fact that you have no evidence for, as you
• 12:51
  know, in science, absence of evidence is not evidence of
• 12:55
  absence. I mean, I would have walked away
• 12:57
  from him at that point. Yeah, I, I just, I, I, I just
• 13:00
  kind of, there's, there's a deep emotional need to find the Yeti
• 13:07
  and I can thought this guy's not going to be satisfied with
• 13:11
  anything apart from unless he stumbles across exactly what,
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  you know, Peter Cushing stumbles across, he's not going to be
• 13:18
  satisfied with any other, you know, discovery.
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  Look at like, you know, a new species of bear or something
• 13:23
  won't be enough. I mean, here's the thing.
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  I, you know, I said, I think I said this thing kind of like
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  this last time we spoke about this.
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  But I love the lost world genre. I love, you know, whole kind of,
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  you know, the Indiana Jones thing of, you know, but I also,
• 13:38
  you know, it's, it's inherently kind of imperialist and
• 13:42
  colonial. And it's that thing of, you
• 13:44
  know, and inherently exoticizes the rest of the world and other
• 13:50
  people and other people's, you know, all we know, we travel to
• 13:54
  foreign lands and, you know, we're all these strange foreign
• 13:57
  people. They're doing strange foreign
• 13:59
  stuff. And you know, but if we speak
• 14:01
  English slowly and loudly enough.
• 14:04
  Oh, and they do that with some of the some of the foreign
• 14:07
  people that they they talk to. It was, it was really
• 14:10
  problematic. And I really got the sense as
• 14:11
  well that it was less about what they would learn if they
• 14:16
  discovered it and more just about we discovered it.
• 14:20
  It was yeah, it's I was so surprised.
• 14:22
  I was surprised. It was a podcast series made in
• 14:25
  as recently as well the twenty 20s because it's it it's to me,
• 14:30
  it was just like, no, you you have a romantic idea of, you
• 14:33
  know, being a being a a Professor Travers type person
• 14:37
  and going out into the world, you know, and discovering
• 14:40
  something and bringing it back, you know, and then, you know,
• 14:43
  for the Royal Society, there's something there's something
• 14:45
  really kind of late 19th century in that desire, I think.
• 14:50
  You know how you can watch a really terrible sort of Doctor
• 14:53
  Who story that teaches you everything?
• 14:56
  Oh. Oh, right.
• 14:57
  Yes, Sorry, Karen. Teach you everything you need to
• 15:00
  know about what not to do. I feel as if this this Yeti
• 15:06
  podcast absolutely, because I feel like there's there is
• 15:09
  actually a space for a podcast about examining the Yeti and the
• 15:14
  background and the previous expeditions and all of that.
• 15:19
  Just this isn't the way to go about.
• 15:22
  It Yeah, yeah, I think we're ready, you know, also talk to a
• 15:24
  folklorist because listening to Yeti, that series, it's
• 15:29
  perfectly clear that Yeti is an umbrella term used by Nepalese,
• 15:37
  by Tibetans, whoever else for a whole, for a whole number of
• 15:40
  different types of animal, you know.
• 15:43
  So the whole, you know, but you know, but there is that there is
• 15:46
  that fantasy of wanting to find the, you know, the, the 9 foot
• 15:50
  tall eight man idea of what the Yeti is.
• 15:55
  And that's a very, it's a very, very 20th century idea of what
• 15:58
  the Yeti or the abominable stone man actually is.
• 16:02
  And yeah, it's a it's a fool's errand and it's a vanglor.
• 16:07
  It's a vanglorious self aggrandizing thing to want to
• 16:10
  do. I think there was a review
• 16:11
  actually that described it exactly like that.
• 16:14
  They had a lot of one star reviews on Apple Podcasts.
• 16:18
  What I will say is doing, because I don't think I've ever
• 16:20
  deep dove quite so far for one of these podcasts is I I think I
• 16:26
  may have caught just a little bit nowhere near your sort of
• 16:29
  your zeal of the cryptozoology bug.
• 16:31
  And that's a lot of word I learned from you last time we.
• 16:35
  Talked. Oh yeah, that's the thing I
• 16:36
  didn't mention to do with Doctor Who.
• 16:39
  Oh, well, it's just, it's just not.
• 16:40
  But I'm quite but I'm, I'm running the Loch Ness Marathon
• 16:44
  on the 29th of September and raising money for Parkinson's in
• 16:46
  the UK. So if you want to sponsor me,
• 16:49
  lovely. But yeah.
• 16:51
  There's a link in the show notes.
• 16:53
  Oh, bless you. Thank you very much.
• 16:54
  Indeed. I mean, there's not yet, but
• 16:56
  there will be. Yeah, yeah.
• 16:57
  Well, I'm running. Yeah, yeah.
• 16:59
  But yeah. But yeah, I love cryptozoology.
• 17:03
  I, but I, I love it from the point of view of, you know, I,
• 17:06
  I, I recognise in myself certain, you know, when you're a
• 17:12
  kid, when you're under the age of 10, you want to, you know, I
• 17:15
  wanted to be the person who, you know, I wanted to be the person
• 17:18
  to find conclusive proof of the existence of Loch Ness Monster
• 17:21
  and stuff like that, You know, but then you get told that you
• 17:24
  really, you know, you actually realize where these things
• 17:26
  actually come from. Then you get interested, you
• 17:28
  know, well, you, one would assume, you know, you were
• 17:31
  interested with shifts to oh, so really it was kind of a, you
• 17:35
  know, a 20th century confluence of the release of King Kong and
• 17:39
  the Daily Mail wanting a new story, et cetera, et cetera.
• 17:43
  And it would be so disappointing if that was it.
• 17:47
  It is, but that is it. But but these days you know, you
• 17:50
  know Nessie is used to you know, to keep the the economy of Loch
• 17:56
  Ness, Inverness and it's in Verons going so and it's a
• 18:01
  fascinating subject. Not on, obviously.
• 18:03
  Also some cryptology is actually to do with, you know, there's a
• 18:07
  kind of, there's a, there's a more serious, there's a side
• 18:12
  which is much more scientific. And then the the other side is
• 18:16
  really kind of woo woo and goes into the realms of folklore and,
• 18:19
  you know, that kind of stuff. But yeah.
• 18:22
  The thing, the thing that entices me, I think it's a bit
• 18:25
  like those people that go looking for aliens and religious
• 18:30
  people go looking for God. That Nigel Neil movie sort of
• 18:33
  proved to me maybe there's something to learn.
• 18:35
  You know, there's more to learn about ourselves if we find these
• 18:38
  creatures, and that's an enticing idea.
• 18:41
  Yeah, that's the yeah, that's the genius of Nigel Neil.
• 18:43
  You go and find the Yeti because you're some kind of, you know,
• 18:47
  great white hunter type person and the and you discover the
• 18:52
  Yeti is a higher form of man than you.
• 18:56
  You know the Yeti is your superior in every way.
• 18:58
  You know that's the. I'm wondering if that might
• 19:02
  actually be the case as well. You know, it does feel a little
• 19:06
  anticlimactic now to go and watch the Abominable Snowmen
• 19:08
  after. Oh, no, no.
• 19:10
  This, this is all the, this is the rich compost that then
• 19:14
  Doctor Who again and again. Yeah.
• 19:18
  And. I can see it now, especially
• 19:21
  that movie. I can see what's being cherry
• 19:23
  picked and they're going, Oh yeah, that's a great visual.
• 19:26
  That's a good notion. That character's worth nicking,
• 19:29
  you know? Yeah, I mean, but Tintin in
• 19:31
  Tibet, you know, is, is a good decade ahead, you know, and
• 19:34
  actually, no, it's about 58, I think.
• 19:37
  So nine years before Doctor Who got there, Tintin did did all
• 19:41
  the same thing, met all the same stock characters, you know, and
• 19:46
  went to Tibet because he had a a psychic premonition that his
• 19:49
  friend Chang was in the plane crash.
• 19:51
  So mysterious Lammersry, psychic powers, the Yeti, it's all been
• 19:57
  it's mid 20th century. It's in.
• 19:59
  It's in the. It's in the.
• 20:00
  Air yeah, it's a sense I've got a sense of romance about it now.
• 20:05
  Well, look, let's let's go in and watch episode four.
• 20:08
  Well, not watch the animated version of episode 4, The
• 20:10
  Abominable Snowman. I do have a wealth of questions
• 20:15
  that I've asked for from at your request.
• 20:18
  I've asked from the hand fam, so I'll be sort of peppering those
• 20:22
  throughout the last three episodes.
• 20:26
  Lovely, lovely. Ashika was in you intro, didn't
• 20:27
  you? I did, yes.
• 20:28
  It was about half an hour ago, but you did intro, so I'll count
• 20:33
  this in in 54321. The other thing I there was even
• 20:41
  some names which sounded similar in that movie to this.
• 20:44
  There was a character called Kusang in that movie.
• 20:48
  Yeah. Haisman and Lincoln, they were
• 20:51
  paying attention. Yeah, exactly.
• 20:54
  It's once, Yeah, it's that thing of yeah, what, watching one
• 20:59
  right after the other. It's it is pleasant, shocking in
• 21:03
  a nice way. It's I, I, I love when Doctor
• 21:06
  Who does this, you know, Pyramids of Mars is a, is a
• 21:09
  direct lift from Hammer, etcetera.
• 21:11
  You know. Oh, here we go.
• 21:12
  Anyway, we're into the the. Yetis on the move.
• 21:15
  Victoria's screaming, of course. And these are a long way from
• 21:20
  Nigel Neal, but. But what I like they, they do
• 21:23
  now sort of seeing all the the sources of that, they do sort of
• 21:27
  go at it full throated, don't they?
• 21:29
  They really, it's not like they're doing this half
• 21:31
  heartedly. Oh, no, this is this has.
• 21:34
  But yeah, that's the thing. It's it's massively influenced
• 21:36
  by the Hammer film, but it's it's not part of the Hammer
• 21:41
  film. It's it's it's using that as
• 21:45
  fresh fuel for a based on the siege story.
• 21:51
  So it's it's it does what I love Doctor Who doing is it which is
• 21:55
  it takes other things, absorbs it and it widens its own gene
• 22:00
  pool by bringing in this this setting.
• 22:05
  Take a dreadful metaphor, Doctor Who is like the absorber of, you
• 22:09
  know, taking it on Willie. Yeah, yeah.
• 22:12
  Doctor Who is like the absorber of Yeah, actually, no, it's like
• 22:17
  the thing. Oh, nice one.
• 22:19
  Yeah. The John Carpenter, The thing.
• 22:20
  Yeah. And what's so fabulous is it can
• 22:23
  handle it. You know, every time you think
• 22:26
  these things would be so contradictory, you know,
• 22:27
  Pyrrhism, Oz, Abominable Snowmen, Delta on the ban of
• 22:31
  men, you know, but it almost. Yeah, yeah.
• 22:34
  That's what Doctor Who is. And because it's got such a an
• 22:38
  adaptable format, Doctor Who can be all these things.
• 22:41
  Now, Rob, that Yeti looks like he was having a bit of a dance
• 22:44
  there, didn't he? Did a bit I I might call this
• 22:47
  animation. I really do.
• 22:49
  Yeah, I know the other thing. The other thing about this
• 22:51
  animation is, you know, we don't we're not owed any of it.
• 22:56
  It's this is a gift it. Really is.
• 22:59
  Yeah, it really is. Well, look, look, shall I start
• 23:01
  with the first question? Oh yes please.
• 23:03
  Do we have got a lot to get through all right?
• 23:06
  OK. OK, so we'll start with Dylan
• 23:08
  Reeves, the creator of Too Hot for TV.
• 23:11
  He asks, does the lack of music enhance this or detract from
• 23:17
  your enjoyment? Doesn't detract from my
• 23:22
  enjoyment. One of the things I felt
• 23:25
  watching this was that I I do think it would have benefited
• 23:31
  from some more music or some music.
• 23:34
  Yeah, I love the atmosphere and some of the some of the sound
• 23:38
  design, but I think I think a a suitably Tibetan score would
• 23:46
  have heightened the atmosphere further for me.
• 23:48
  I don't know, I think a good Hammer score would be great over
• 23:51
  this because when you when you watch the Web of Fear and that
• 23:55
  opening scene in the museum when the Yeti comes to life, it's
• 23:59
  literally library music that they've used in Hammer movies.
• 24:01
  Is it? It's Bart.
• 24:03
  Is it Bart? It's fantastic.
• 24:05
  It's it's crazy melodramatic, but so it's really.
• 24:09
  It's amazing. And Stanley Kubrick uses exactly
• 24:11
  the same piece again in The Shining.
• 24:13
  Yeah. Yeah, I think, yeah, this one.
• 24:15
  I I do. I do think this would have
• 24:17
  benefited from more incidental music.
• 24:22
  Do you know what's a shame is? As we can see on the screen
• 24:25
  right now, there was a ton of location work in this episode.
• 24:28
  What a shame we can't see it. Yeah, actually from the seeing
• 24:31
  some of the Teller snaps, it's really clear there was some
• 24:35
  incredible location stuff done in the animation here.
• 24:40
  We've got snow by the looks of it.
• 24:42
  And one thing I do think this production, yeah, this is again,
• 24:46
  you know, what are you going to do?
• 24:48
  You know? But I think snow, a bit of bit
• 24:52
  of bit of fake snow spread about it would have been lovely.
• 24:55
  Or if they'd been lucky enough that it actually had snowed the.
• 24:59
  One, the one thing about the the new movie that really stood out
• 25:03
  to me was how effectively snowy it was.
• 25:06
  So that Blizzard, it was blinding, you know, like they
• 25:09
  couldn't see, so anything could be coming for it.
• 25:11
  And when you saw the Yetis against the snow, they were
• 25:15
  picked out very dramatically. Yeah, it was very well used.
• 25:23
  I'm back. I lost you for a second, but
• 25:26
  you're back, don't worry. You can do some jiggery pokery
• 25:30
  there. You know I won't though.
• 25:34
  One of us froze. I think it was.
• 25:35
  It wasn't me. I think it was Joseph.
• 25:37
  So you go. OK, so second question #2 then
• 25:40
  from Dylan. OK is Oh dear, use the swear
• 25:43
  word as well. I'm so sorry.
• 25:44
  I don't know what to do that sort of thing on this podcast.
• 25:47
  Does that whispering cunt get on your tits?
• 25:50
  Is what he says. I I just wish that whispering
• 25:55
  can't would speak of it faster sometimes just get to the point.
• 25:58
  Yeah, no, I I'm I don't know. I I what am I actually let me
• 26:05
  consult my notes because I wrote down a running a running
• 26:08
  commentary of what I was thinking.
• 26:11
  The Yeti have lots of junk in the trunk.
• 26:15
  Fat bottom Yeti makes this rocking world go round.
• 26:19
  These are the kind of notes I make Yeti outside the TARDIS
• 26:22
  where Telusnaps reveal missing some great location footage.
• 26:26
  Would this. This is me.
• 26:27
  This is me. These are my notes.
• 26:29
  Yeah. Would this benefit from more
• 26:31
  incidental music? It's all quite quiet.
• 26:34
  Oh, yeah. Lion.
• 26:35
  I love what you're going to do. Bang a rock at it.
• 26:38
  Nice one. Yeah.
• 26:40
  But yes, I think. I think the answer is yeah, it
• 26:43
  it gets a little bit 4-5 and six gets a little bit slow.
• 26:47
  You got to remember that we are trying to fill 3 hours.
• 26:50
  Maybe that's why he talks as slow as he does.
• 26:54
  Yeah, if you'd had a look at I'm.
• 26:57
  Being silly. Yeah, I don't know, Maybe
• 27:01
  there's just, you know, yes, the first two episodes you've got is
• 27:04
  it, is it Chris and Travers who like being both obstructive guys
• 27:09
  in the first two, which is kind of, you know, just a bit of
• 27:14
  artificial obstacle for the first couple of episodes, but.
• 27:17
  Then we then effectively it's like 2 episodes of running
• 27:20
  around on location, isn't it? Trying to get back to the
• 27:22
  TARDIS? And then the last two it is
• 27:25
  heavily based on Papa Samlova, what happened there?
• 27:29
  Victoria being taken over? Yeah, bit more psychology.
• 27:34
  Yeah, I think they do have the idea.
• 27:36
  Just Bunga Rock active, which is just, you know, gorgeous.
• 27:40
  But yeah, I think also there's a little bit of artificiality in
• 27:44
  oh, let's give Victoria. She really, really wants to go
• 27:48
  and see the Abbott for no great reason.
• 27:50
  We because we have to give her something to do kind of stuff.
• 27:53
  So there's a little bit of wheel spinning perhaps, as you know,
• 27:56
  but which which is kind of filled by the great intelligence
• 27:59
  talking slowly. But yeah, maybe, yes, maybe,
• 28:02
  maybe, maybe there's a point. He has a point there.
• 28:05
  Well, I do have a slightly more intelligent, sorry Dylan
• 28:08
  question about Pamasamlova, but I'll leave that till later when
• 28:11
  he's sort of taking taking dominance.
• 28:15
  Honestly. Rob, you know, went away with
• 28:16
  him last weekend. The amount of scurrilous rumours
• 28:20
  he told me about Doctor Who creatives, you wouldn't believe
• 28:22
  it. I don't believe a word of any of
• 28:24
  them. Don't worry, your name was not
• 28:25
  mentioned. March.
• 28:29
  March. So Rod Brown, my Co host from
• 28:33
  Strictly camp. Oh.
• 28:35
  Hello Rod, he asked how successful is the story in
• 28:38
  invoking and maintaining a sense of time and place, given that is
• 28:42
  largely a setting which serves to differentiate itself from
• 28:45
  other Season 5 based on the Siege stories?
• 28:48
  That's a long question. You can you repeat that
• 28:51
  question? Please, you passed it.
• 28:54
  How successful is the story in evoking and maintaining a sense
• 28:58
  of time and place, given that it is largely the setting which
• 29:02
  serves to differentiate it from other Season 5 based Under Siege
• 29:06
  stories? All right, I, I, I think it does
• 29:10
  a good job and I think here's one reason why setting it in the
• 29:13
  mid 1930s is good is that the mid 1930s is kind of the, the
• 29:20
  last time you can set this kind of story with the, you know, in,
• 29:25
  in genre, the idea of, you know, still distant parts of the world
• 29:29
  which are unexplored. It's it's a pre war thing.
• 29:34
  So that the 1930s is a good period for this kind of story.
• 29:38
  And Travers is a 1930s kind of character, but you know, but
• 29:43
  it's only, it's still about what, 30 odd years before the
• 29:49
  time it's by the time, by the period of production.
• 29:53
  So this is set 32. This is set 32 years.
• 29:57
  You know, before the time it's made, which is the equivalent of
• 30:00
  setting something in the 90s now.
• 30:02
  Close enough to be able to do it convincingly.
• 30:05
  Yeah, I wonder just perfect convincing job is there buried
• 30:10
  in that question the suggestion that there's very little to show
• 30:15
  that it's the 30s because it could be the 60s and I don't
• 30:19
  think it could. I think, I think the whole, I
• 30:21
  think the whole kind of there is a kind of you can argue to what
• 30:26
  degree, you know, a bunch of, you know, Caucasian actors
• 30:31
  playing Tibetans is good or bad. But regardless, yeah, even if
• 30:36
  you cast Tibetans in those roles, because casting, casting
• 30:41
  Chinese people in those roles would be problematic in his own
• 30:43
  way. If you cast Tibetans in those
• 30:45
  roles, it's because by virtue of the genre, it's still
• 30:53
  exoticizes, it's still a kind, it's a fantasy Lost Horizon
• 30:58
  Tibet of the, you know, of the of the Western imagination.
• 31:03
  You know, these aren't real people.
• 31:04
  These are the kind of people who Tin Tin meets.
• 31:07
  These are the kind of people you meet in Lost Horizon.
• 31:09
  If Indiana Jones had gone to Shambhala in a movie, these in
• 31:14
  in the 30s, these are the kind of characters he would have met.
• 31:16
  So that that they're stock genre characters who you would tend to
• 31:21
  meet in the interbellum period. Yeah.
• 31:25
  And I guess Travers himself is probably our sort of indication
• 31:32
  that this is the 30s, that he's a character from the 30s because
• 31:36
  he's from our world, technically.
• 31:39
  Yeah, he he's he is your obsessive, half crazed great
• 31:44
  white hunter almost. Yes, he's he's just professor,
• 31:47
  he's a scientist, but he's still kind of he still wants to bag
• 31:51
  and tag a Yeti and bring it back so those bastards at the Royal
• 31:55
  Society will finally take him seriously.
• 31:57
  But I think it's, it's a genre that kind of sits most
• 32:00
  comfortably in the, in the, you know, in the 30s before World
• 32:04
  War 2. So I think that's another reason
• 32:07
  it's set when it is. And we did a good job because it
• 32:12
  does a good job of evoking it. Because there's, there's nothing
• 32:14
  to, there's nothing that says 1967 in this part from apart
• 32:20
  from the, the idea of robots and the, and the big kind of nerve
• 32:25
  centre, the big kind of white shiny nerve centre at the end.
• 32:29
  You can get OK this is a question from me now.
• 32:31
  You got a lot of storytelling change then post World War 2.
• 32:35
  No, it's, it's more of that after World War Two that the
• 32:38
  idea of there being places in the world that were kind of, you
• 32:44
  know, cut off and hidden was a little less realistic in genre
• 32:49
  terms. after World War Two, people started, people started
• 32:53
  looking to space and that's that's why you got stuff like
• 32:55
  Doctor Who. So it stopped being about sort
• 32:59
  of, you know, that kind of Michael Palin ripping yarns, you
• 33:04
  know, you know, subject, you know, those brave, loyal boys of
• 33:07
  the British Empire going off and exploring places and painting
• 33:11
  them at pink. It became Dan Dare of, you know,
• 33:16
  space police going off and meeting them, econ and stuff
• 33:19
  like that. So.
• 33:20
  There was still enough people that were romanced by that idea,
• 33:24
  that creative people. What was that movie I watched?
• 33:26
  That was another Cushing Hammer movie?
• 33:28
  It was all set on a train and he was off.
• 33:30
  He he'd he was on an expedition. Oh yeah, Horror Express.
• 33:34
  I was amazing. Christopher Lee and Telly
• 33:37
  Cevallos, Yeah. It was a great movie.
• 33:40
  It was in this massive crate, a burst out.
• 33:44
  I attacked everybody on the train.
• 33:46
  Again, but it's an alien as well.
• 33:48
  Yeah. So they they start kind of, you
• 33:50
  know, this, this is we could. Ask what Doctor Who influenced,
• 33:54
  you know, like what's after this?
• 33:56
  Yeah, Horror Express is 73. I think around the time right
• 34:01
  after Peter Cushing's wife died. He nearly didn't do the film.
• 34:04
  I remember his name, yeah. Yeah.
• 34:06
  So the Christopher Lee talked him into do you know it'd be
• 34:09
  good for you also pretty much Christopher.
• 34:12
  Lee I'm glad he did because he brought he brought a lot of
• 34:14
  integrity to that movie, which otherwise would have been very
• 34:17
  schlocky. It's pretty sloppy.
• 34:20
  Oh, it's amazing. Lots of very ugly zooms, which
• 34:25
  that era seemed to love. And although soldiers came on at
• 34:28
  the end, didn't they? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 34:30
  Cossacks. Yes, amazing.
• 34:33
  Everyone seek it out. OK, well let's go to another
• 34:36
  question then. Oh yeah?
• 34:38
  Well, I'll hear your answer for this one.
• 34:39
  So, Fraser, Gregory, God help us all, asks Rob.
• 34:44
  Is there a story about Yetis that you'd like to tell?
• 34:53
  I don't I don't shoot my bolt on this one because it might be
• 34:57
  actually worth pitching because I'm actually in position where I
• 34:59
  possibly could. But I would say, you know, I
• 35:02
  mean, what is what is the most famous Yeti story?
• 35:06
  We never got now the doctor in a in a Yeti on the loo and Tooting
• 35:10
  back. I kind of think there's, you
• 35:12
  know, the 3rd Doctor Yeti story, which was, I think, you know,
• 35:16
  that was kind of in, in their minds when Hertory took over.
• 35:22
  So I I kind of think, yeah, a third Doctor.
• 35:24
  Is that one of these yetis or I mean, because that's obviously a
• 35:29
  deliberate? Well, here's the thing.
• 35:30
  The. Premise, isn't it?
• 35:31
  Yeah, but now see these again, I, I, I do I want to say this
• 35:35
  here or do I actually want to actually maybe get a chance of
• 35:39
  writing it? But but you know, the great
• 35:42
  intelligence is robot yetis. They're just, they're just
• 35:45
  imitations of the real thing. And we know from this, we know
• 35:48
  from this that Yeti are real in the Doctor Who.
• 35:52
  In the Doctor Who universe, Yetis are real.
• 35:57
  They are. Yeah.
• 35:58
  So Oh yeah, at the end, at the end of this, yeah.
• 36:01
  Yeah, yeah. So that's, to be honest, that's
• 36:03
  as far as I want to go answering that question because I could,
• 36:06
  you know, I might end up writing it one day.
• 36:08
  Can I? Sorry, I know we're completely
• 36:10
  straying from the animation now, but never mind, it's very.
• 36:13
  Pretty. You know, it's, it is gorgeous
• 36:15
  and I've got to say there was a lot of fun there with Spheres
• 36:19
  leaving Jamie's hands and going into Getty chest.
• 36:21
  Oh yeah, that's your thing? Yeah.
• 36:23
  In this one, Tommy brings up Padma Sunburger's ability to
• 36:28
  astridly project, and this was a huge thing at the time.
• 36:33
  I mean, Elizabeth Sander talks about it on flight through
• 36:37
  entirety. They talk about this as well.
• 36:38
  But in, Yeah, one of my notes is that OK, Astral projection, See
• 36:45
  David Bowie July 1967. So earlier this year, the B side
• 36:51
  Did You ever have a dream? It's a song about, it's a really
• 36:55
  funky little number, but it's a, it's a David Bowie song from
• 36:58
  1967, earlier this year about astral projection, about astral
• 37:03
  flight and travelling in your dreams.
• 37:05
  So the whole astral plane thing is and is is and all that kind
• 37:11
  of all that kind of stuff that the, you know, the The Beatles
• 37:15
  kind of got from India and all that kind of hippie stuff is
• 37:19
  really in the air right now and that.
• 37:20
  This controversial, enormous creative liberties are taken
• 37:28
  with that sequence because they visualize it in a, in a really
• 37:31
  striking way, in a way that they never did back in the day.
• 37:35
  And I love what they do. I I saw it in colour on the big
• 37:39
  screen and it was, you want trippy?
• 37:42
  It was, it was like I'd taken some space dust.
• 37:45
  I yeah, I love that sequence. And that's what, when I was
• 37:48
  talking about in episode one about making this stuff more
• 37:53
  accessible to sort of kids today or an audience now that might
• 37:57
  not want to, that's the sort of thing they should be doing, I
• 38:00
  think making it more visually arresting.
• 38:05
  Yeah, I can see. I can see that.
• 38:07
  I can see that. I also think people should just
• 38:09
  learn to eat their greens and, you know, respect what they've
• 38:11
  got and get over themselves. But anyway, that's that's just
• 38:14
  me. You said that very eloquent in
• 38:16
  episode one. God, when I listened back I
• 38:18
  couldn't stop laughing. Oh.
• 38:20
  God, I I dread to think what I said, but anyway, carry.
• 38:23
  On anyway till it comes out. I've got enough time for another
• 38:25
  question then. Oh lovely.
• 38:27
  So let's go across to oh lovely Toby Haydock.
• 38:32
  Oh, Toby Haydock. Okey dokey.
• 38:35
  So he asks in the science fiction world of Doctor Who, is
• 38:39
  Buddhism real? Are the followers of the
• 38:42
  religion correct? If so, why does Buddhism get a
• 38:45
  free pass when other religions? Don't.
• 38:48
  Can you repeat the question please?
• 38:54
  Because I think there are, there are there are there are there
• 38:57
  are there's, there's more than one question in there.
• 38:59
  I think so. OK, I'll I'll, I'll try again.
• 39:02
  Maybe it's how I'm reading them. No, no, no.
• 39:05
  It's just yeah, it's, that's me. It's.
• 39:07
  He says he says in this science and he really stresses science
• 39:11
  fiction world of Doctor Who is Buddhism real I.
• 39:15
  I think, I think to to, yeah, a version of Buddhism I think does
• 39:18
  seem to be real in the Doctor Who universe.
• 39:21
  It certainly is in Planet of the Spiders.
• 39:23
  Yes, yeah. Are the followers of the
• 39:27
  religion correct? I mean, where do you go with
• 39:29
  that question? Well.
• 39:33
  He's asking about your faith, I think, Rob.
• 39:36
  No, no, if the, if a religion is real within a fiction, you know,
• 39:41
  and the people who in it, who were in the that fiction believe
• 39:45
  in it. But if it's actually real belief
• 39:49
  isn't is no longer required. It's if it becomes kind of a
• 39:56
  it's more of a physical reality. But then again, you can have a
• 39:58
  physical reality and have complete the wrong ideas about
• 40:01
  it. Yeah, next bit.
• 40:06
  This is. The I I may found it here, but
• 40:08
  carry on carry. On I really well, I know I find
• 40:10
  this last part really. If so, why does Buddhism get a
• 40:12
  free pass and other religions don't?
• 40:15
  Because we don't. I'm trying to think of other
• 40:17
  times where. I think that's because Buddhism
• 40:23
  in kind of in the sick, you know how, you know, the you know,
• 40:26
  people say, you know, like, you know, we couldn't afford to be
• 40:29
  hippies because, you know, being being a hippie really, it really
• 40:32
  helped if you were a trust fund kids to turn on TuneIn and drop
• 40:36
  out and all that kind of stuff. I kind of think the Western
• 40:40
  interest in Buddhism is quite a middle class pastime.
• 40:47
  I think, unlike other religions. So I, and it's also kind of, you
• 40:53
  know, the way it gets presented in fiction in the West, and by
• 40:58
  which I mean, if you look at the films like the abominable
• 41:02
  Snowman, the Nigel Neal film, it's it's a religion of peace.
• 41:07
  And yes, you got Chris on the they're the warriors, but
• 41:10
  they're kind of there to look after the monks.
• 41:14
  And if you're in Lost Horizon, again, they're there.
• 41:17
  It's, it's, it's Shangri-La is this kind of Oasis of peace
• 41:22
  where they're waiting out world wars really.
• 41:25
  So I think, I think in, in Occidental fiction, Buddhism is
• 41:30
  seen as a peaceful, enlightened religion.
• 41:37
  That is the, the comment, the comments on the, all the
• 41:44
  destruction that occurs, you know, thanks to Europe and the
• 41:49
  world wars. It has a tendency of instigating
• 41:52
  and of course in the real world, you know, it's, you know,
• 41:56
  especially in something like this, which is of except in
• 41:59
  Tibet, you know, the whole, the whole kind of the, the politics
• 42:03
  and all the, you know, the kind of the, the situation with Tibet
• 42:09
  and China. Real world, real world Buddhism
• 42:13
  is not of I don't think it's, that's not, that's not what
• 42:17
  we're talking about. I think we are talking about
• 42:19
  kind of, you know, an idea of Buddhism that.
• 42:23
  What I was going to say can can culture Westerners present
• 42:29
  Buddhism in an authentic way? Well.
• 42:33
  Well, you could argue, you know, can anyone you know can can you
• 42:36
  present any religion as soon as you migrated to become something
• 42:41
  different? But oh, that's that was pretty
• 42:43
  really good question, but I don't know what my answer was
• 42:45
  like, but I I do kind of think what do you?
• 42:47
  Mean by free pass though Free pass.
• 42:51
  What we, what we don't, what we, we, we criticize and critically,
• 42:54
  we critique and look and explore the hypocrisies in most
• 43:00
  religions. You know, in fiction we do this
• 43:03
  in Buddhism, we don't Buddhism, Buddhism seems seems to be I
• 43:07
  think in fiction in West it's the it's the it's the religion
• 43:14
  of I suppose the you could pretty call them sort of magic.
• 43:23
  SE Asians. Do you know what I mean?
• 43:25
  You know, people who have access to the other world.
• 43:29
  I mean, the same could be true for, you know, for, you know,
• 43:33
  going to stuff like and anyway, I don't.
• 43:35
  Know I I. Journey the West.
• 43:37
  But I, I, I, I think because, I think because in fiction it's
• 43:41
  associated with characters who have, who are pacifistic or
• 43:47
  above violence and have access to tangible magic essentially, I
• 43:54
  think. I'm.
• 43:56
  I'm not. Sure, if answer was that OK,
• 43:59
  that's. Wonderful.
• 44:00
  Well, I've I've still got things to ask about the question.
• 44:02
  It's quite, yeah. Yeah.
• 44:04
  That's a deep question. Oh, with the episode ended by
• 44:06
  the way, but it ended with a great Cliff Agger of Victoria
• 44:11
  heading towards which is very creepy.
• 44:14
  I mean, in the real world, you get Buddhist monks setting
• 44:16
  themselves on fire and, you know, and you and there and
• 44:20
  there are Buddhist paramilitary groups who do kill people, if
• 44:25
  I'm correct. So yeah.
• 44:28
  So I think, yeah, we, we give of, I think there's something
• 44:40
  wrong in that in a, in a way. But I think, I think it's
• 44:42
  because the the, the idea of Buddhism we kind of have is in
• 44:46
  itself a bit of fiction, I think.
• 44:49
  Well, I was trying to think other times where religion is
• 44:54
  condemned in Doctor Who. Oh, A.
• 44:58
  Lot of the time, most of the time religion in classic coup
• 45:00
  is. The massacre.
• 45:02
  And there's actually, and there's actually a robot who's
• 45:04
  actually behind everything. But in, in, in, in this one, the
• 45:10
  Great Intelligence is a spiritual being which Padma
• 45:19
  Sambhava accesses on the astral plane.
• 45:22
  So the Great Intelligence is brought to Earth through the
• 45:29
  power of Buddhism. Literally, literally.
• 45:34
  Do you know, I hope I answered that.
• 45:35
  OK. That's the kind of question.
• 45:37
  What the, that's the the answer I gave is I will wake up at 3:00
• 45:40
  this morning. Oh.
• 45:41
  No, please. Start about.
• 45:43
  I'm very very worried about. Well, if you want to record, you
• 45:46
  know, an addendum, we can add it.
• 45:47
  Oh no. That's no, no, I'm just going to
• 45:50
  wake up at that thing. How how much of A twat was I?
• 45:52
  But anyway, yeah, it's. Got lots of thinking about
• 45:55
  religion in Doctor Who and when it's really, I suppose episode
• 45:58
  one of the massacre. It's called War of God, isn't
• 46:00
  it? That's a very it's a heavily
• 46:03
  religious story. I was thinking about Curse of
• 46:06
  Fenerick. Do you remember when he's got
• 46:07
  the cross in Curse of Fenerick and he thinks that's his face is
• 46:11
  going to save him and then the two vampire girls still kill
• 46:14
  him? Yeah, but also it's just like
• 46:15
  the the sisterhood of Khan. Yeah, of course.
• 46:19
  Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
• 46:22
  Toby, you've opened up a can of worms there.
• 46:24
  Thank you very much. It's a good question.
• 46:26
  I I do think it's actually, yeah, we, there's a very kind of
• 46:31
  the middle class appropriation of Buddhism in whenever it was,
• 46:38
  you know, sixties, 70s through that period.
• 46:41
  It kind of bleeds into the new age movement, you know, you
• 46:44
  know, smudge sticks and crystals and all that kind of stuff.
• 46:48
  Yeah. I think, I think we give
• 46:49
  Buddhism a free pass out of a different kind of prejudice
• 46:53
  possibly. Anyway, I'm, yeah, I'm three,
• 46:56
  3:00 this morning. I'm going to wake up in a cold
• 46:59
  sweat, thank God. Please don't.
• 47:02
  I what? What Ask did I What ask did I
• 47:06
  talk anyway? Not until, I mean, having
• 47:09
  recently watched Planet of Spiders, I'd say that is
• 47:13
  attempting to be a gentle education of Buddhist themes,
• 47:20
  you know, and it, it literally spells things out at times
• 47:24
  throughout the episodes. But this isn't really doing the
• 47:28
  look, you're right. This is just a setting and it's
• 47:30
  it's a bit mystical. And as you say, it's the way.
• 47:33
  But in in Planet of the Spiders, you have another and this is,
• 47:37
  you know, you have another magic Asian who is an actor, an actor
• 47:41
  in yellow Face. So again, it's yeah.
• 47:44
  But it's it's it's yeah. It's it's middle class English
• 47:49
  Buddhism with magic Asians. Well, you'll be pleased to know.
• 47:54
  But the but the Buddhism, but the crystal power is real.
• 47:57
  So it's, it's very, yeah. So it's kind of, you know, it's
• 48:00
  new, it's very new agey Buddhism.
• 48:02
  It's not actual Buddhism most likely.
• 48:06
  Well, whether it's accurate or not, it's got us talking.
• 48:09
  Yeah, yeah. Which I suppose is the point a
• 48:11
  little bit. And you'll be pleased to know
• 48:13
  there are four other questions from Tony yen to come.
• 48:16
  Oh wow, Sir. OK, cool, cool.
• 48:19
  But I suppose we better out four because this is reaching almost
• 48:22
  an hour now for this episode that was 25 minutes long.
• 48:26
  Well, you. You're getting your value for
• 48:27
  money, folks. Yeah.
• 48:28
  Oh, you always do with a pair of us.
• 48:30
  What should we skip into episode 5?
• 48:33
  I mean, I have no idea what's going on with it by Little
• 48:34
  Snowman right now, but who cares?
• 48:36
  Let's do. Let's do it.
• 48:37
  Let's do it.