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278 - Nicholas Janni & Amy Elizabeth Fox: Leading in Chaos · Coaches Rising

0:00
[UNKNOWN]: Thank you for watching.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This is the coach's rising podcast.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm delighted today to be joined by Amy Elizabeth Fox and Nicholas Yany.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And we are gathering to talk about their new book Leading in Chaos, which is a clarion call to a new future from these pioneers in leadership development.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So we're going to be exploring some of the big ideas in this book today, including
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[SPEAKER_01]: And what are these times we find ourselves in?
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[SPEAKER_01]: What is the invitation being made to leaders?
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[SPEAKER_01]: And also to transformational practitioners, facilitators, and coaches working with leaders.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So we'll go into the importance of trauma-informed work and Nicholas and Amy's experience working with thousands of leaders.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And what does it mean to be of service, to be a blessing field in our times?
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[SPEAKER_01]: This was a delightfully rich conversation.
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[SPEAKER_01]: A couple more words about who our guests are today in case you don't know them.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Nikolay Shani is an internationally respected.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Leadership coach and teacher and speaker.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He's an author of leader as healer and Amy Elizabeth Fox is a renowned leadership advisor.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She's the CEO of Mobius Executive Leadership who are known for their pioneering work in Transmational change and trauma and formed leadership.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So we're in good hands today.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So let's dive in.
1:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's the podcast with Nicholas and Amy.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So dear dear Amy and Nicholas
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[SPEAKER_01]: Looking at me on the screen like this, it's really a joy and we're here for a great reason too, like this book that you've both brought into the world and leading in chaos.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So we're going to unpack some of the reasons why you created that book and the invitation I think, the powerful invitation inside that book today, well how are each of you, first of all?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I know you've got your a big day today.
2:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we're doing a book launch this evening, Joel, and it's such a delight to get to be with you and the global coaches rising family on this day for in particular, really joyous to be with you, and to be with Nicholas.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, likewise, wonderful to be with you, Joel.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm excited to book launch the whole process with the book, is a rich and powerful journey for us.
2:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's dive right into that, as we were checking in, you talked about transmission, actually.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And that was actually the first place I wanted to go.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I found this a very powerful book to read.
3:02
[SPEAKER_01]: It felt very evocative to read it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I wonder what, for each of you, your intended transmission for this book is, like, what's it serving in the world?
3:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, Joel.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's a crucial question.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Actually, I was walking early this morning in the park and I was reflecting and I got some new insights.
3:32
[SPEAKER_02]: So, first of all, if I track my journey of awakening and healing my trauma, that'll be forever.
3:41
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I put that with my reading of the traditions, what they're saying about this time, what they said about this time.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then I tune into what's happening in the world.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It makes me more sure than ever that were at a pivotal moment, and were at a pivotal moment of consciousness shift.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And that everything that's happening now,
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[SPEAKER_02]: in all the chaos and another war.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Everything is a consequence of an old paradigm, an old consciousness that's separate, that's disconnected, that's not based in the heart.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And if I feel my journey, even this year,
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[SPEAKER_02]: which already from the beginning, I felt was opening new portals outwardly and inwardly.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I find myself with a new level of access to the unified field, which all the traditions have written about.
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[SPEAKER_02]: or I would sometimes call it the one heart.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And it's new, I feel it's something new in me.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And it gives me the sense even more that that is exactly what's needed.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Now that is exactly the collective shift point humanity has arrived at what the tradition said.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, if you ask about the transmission of the book, I think my deepest wish is that it would transmit that field of love because the unified field, I feel refreshed when I say that, is a field of capital L, love, that is the consciousness that has always been spoken about,
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[SPEAKER_02]: we got seriously into what I call exile, and it's my deepest wishes that each of us and all of us come home.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's very most noted that we come home because we're really lost and look what's happening in the world.
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[SPEAKER_00]: you know, that's such a beautiful answer.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I would just add this to all.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think we both feel like there's no time to waste in the inflection point that we're in collectively and globally to have the conversations that have gone unspoken and unhealed for a very, very long time.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Generations.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so in some ways, in my mind, the book is a transmission of intimate truth of what actually has gone on in our lives as families, as communities, as collectives, what all the points of fracture, fragmentation and trauma are and what a pathway for healing and expansion looks like.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So on one level, the book is exactly, as you said, meant to be provocative and
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[SPEAKER_00]: confronted in some ways and in vitational to ask people to tell the real stories of their lives and to look in the rooms of their house that they don't often dwell in or engage, often unconscious content.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And at the same time,
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[SPEAKER_00]: to participate in a kind of renaissance or movement of renewal and love that has the possibility to rewire all the cultural agreements we operate by and all the ways that organizational culture is dehumanizing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Can we believe be changed and far more wholesome?
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[SPEAKER_00]: going forward.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So it's a one level, a gritty description of what is true, and at the second level, it's a prayer for what is possible.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm also a bit of a road map because
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's been particularly touching in some of the reviews when people comment about how rooted it is in our experience of working in the field with leaders.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's not an abstract theoretical book, and that seems very important.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And everything Amy said reminds me of why I'm so honored to be co-author of this book with my name.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I feel very much the same, yeah.
8:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Before we maybe unpack that road map a little bit more, I wonder if you could say something about the world right now because the book is a very powerful invitation and it's full of hope in a sense of this path.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And our field, in general, the field of transformational practitioners and coaches, I think really care about
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[SPEAKER_01]: helping leaders to deepen and find access to ways of collaborating, leading that lead to a sustainable future for us all.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And yet, you know, if we look at the world right now, and the sense of chaos, you know, to speak to the title of the book, and the uncertainty.
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[SPEAKER_01]: the seeming way that maybe many leaders are not acting from this place that we're advocating for.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like, could you just say something about, you know, because people might be going, yeah, sounds great, but where are these leaders?
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think one of the things that happens in chaos is leaders and practitioners like are in a state of disorientation and confusion.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's really hard to make meaning and sense make out of a constantly volatile and dangerous environment.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So one of the things the book tries to do early on is to give us diagnostic lens to ground us all in a shared
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[SPEAKER_00]: interpretation of what are the root causes of what the kind of fragmentation and polarization and escalating violence that we're seeing rooted in untreated trauma.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that by definition,
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[SPEAKER_00]: is grounding because we start to begin to know as Nicholas said a moment ago what the road map or pathway out of the problem is.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If you're just living within the symptoms of a constantly swirling constantly, seemingly random, set of circumstances bombarding you constantly with stress and pressure and anxiety, it's very hard to get grounded and focused on what you can contribute.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So that's one thing I would say.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think the book is oriented.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The second thing I would say is that I think as practitioners, we owe it to ourselves to disproportionately attend to resourcing and things that are inspiring and expansive and nurturing because it's our job to help co-regulate and ground leaders in a context in which they are under increasing pressure.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think the book is also called for renewal and practices that of self-care, of rigorous self-care for practitioners, because otherwise we won't have a waterfall of beauty to offer to the clients who are struggling themselves.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So that's what I would start with.
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[SPEAKER_00]: What would you add in Nicholas?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Beautiful.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's such an important question, Joel.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to start with the fact that the world, or at least a big part of it, is very present in this household here.
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[SPEAKER_02]: My step daughter is spending three quarters of each day in a bomb shelter in Israel,
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think exactly what's being called for now, and my wife is even more affected than I am, obviously, being Israeli.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's calling for us to be in a consciousness that can embrace and hold that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: and not be consumed completely by it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Meaning to be able to hold and meet that, and still be connected to deeper field, a field of love, a field of light, whatever you want to call it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And that is what's, I think, the new consciousness that's needed.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Because if we only see the news, then we think, well, this is just, remember, Jumbo, what's the point?
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[SPEAKER_02]: But as we know, and maybe it's getting a bit, but he is satiric to talk about it, everything is about frequency.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So the world news is at a certain frequency, and it's hugely destructive and painful.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And we're in what you're in a messy, called the Great Unraveling.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And there is a much higher frequency available.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I meet that by the way, every time I'm in Israel, very strongly, this level where life is like kind of catastrophic, but the high frequency is completely there.
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[SPEAKER_02]: If we can feel it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I feel very strongly that's what we're called to now.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And it's just an addition to what Amy is saying,
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not, you see, I turn this maybe we'll get into this and it also in more detail, but I don't think it's about.
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[SPEAKER_02]: what's going to happen?
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[SPEAKER_02]: I don't do the work this work because I hope things are going to get much better.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I do in one way, but that's not the deepest motivation.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's to stand in that frequency and let that frequency come through and that's the best I can do anyway.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And everyone I know,
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[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, I hope I'm making sense there, because back to that, that's left, have all quote that hope is not about something necessarily getting better, hope is that you know what you're doing makes sense, whatever the outcome, we don't know the outcome, that's way beyond what we can know, but we do know that there is this different possibility of consciousness available.
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[SPEAKER_02]: and has been written about for millennia and is where that tipping point now, where it has to be born more and more, how that will happen, what will happen, I don't know.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But I don't feel, I never feel hopeful or hopeless, it's not even in that polarity.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And the book operates at multiple levels of consciousness.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So some of the book is written in very organizational development and leadership language.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Some of the book is a call to look at the history of colonialism, of violence, of ecological degradation, of social injustice, inequity, economically.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Some of it is very specifically looking at what's out of alignment in the social order that is now in motion.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And then it ends up or culminates in, we hope, a very compelling description of the spiritual possibility of living in a more transpersonal and relational and sane way on the planet.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So it's in by design, not a spiritual bypass, but a very concrete focus on what's not working and what needs to repair.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, we each lead programs and work with people one to one, where we start with, you know, a very often a very contracted, quite numb energy field, because that is what we've been living it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So we know that journey of how that starts to melt, how that starts to open, and the different gateways of that process.
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[SPEAKER_01]: If I can weave together some of the things you're saying into a question here, so it sounds like
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[SPEAKER_01]: There's this journey that we can make out of this collective trauma field and the activation that can occur that we live from into a place of deeper contact and intimacy with our experience.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Whereby, as you say Nicholas, we're not now reacting, trying to save things or defend things as much as
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[SPEAKER_01]: meeting life in a different way and maybe as a kind of field we can hold as a leader and metabolization, you know, I've been thinking about this idea of like being a vessel that allows chaos to cohere, you know, being a field.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so I just want to combine that reflection with what you said about the news and how that, you know, if you tune in just to the news,
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[SPEAKER_01]: where on earth are we going to find a way through this?
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[SPEAKER_01]: But actually, I think what each of you said about working with leaders in real life, are you seeing leaders who are
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[SPEAKER_01]: responding in the way that you're advocating for and going on this journey and you know that maybe like yeah if you watch the news it seems quite hopeless but actually in real life people are people are transforming people are shifting already
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[SPEAKER_00]: And the part of the trauma field of the current zeitgeist is that it hypnotizes us to believe we can't make a change or the people are unreachable in the numbness that Nicholas referenced.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We start to believe and get in train to believe.
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[SPEAKER_00]: that it's not possible or would take endless amounts of time for things to be otherwise.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But that's not our experience and our actual work with leaders.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Our experience is often organizations are skeptical or concerned that it wouldn't work there, that people won't want to have an open heart, that people don't have that level of trust and safety, that people aren't willing to do their inner work.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And of course, it does take some skill and some expertise to make the correct invitation and to meet people where they start as Nicholas referenced earlier.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But when you do have those capacities to create an appropriate container for people to take a journey of self-contact and self-healing and self-revolution, my experience and I think Nicholas will bear this out as well is that most people yearn to come home and not only do they
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[SPEAKER_00]: address their own unconscious habits and derailers and pain and hurt, but they long to accompany each other in the journey home and they take great joy in comforting and witnessing and celebrating one another.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I think our book is an attempt to testify to the possibility that actually many organizations could be operating differently if we were as practitioners making the appropriate
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[SPEAKER_02]: I meet many leaders who are absolutely up for the journey and indeed are not.
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[SPEAKER_02]: had a remarkable experience, a month or so ago, here in London when I was invited to attend a senior team meeting in an ultra-conventional organisation in the city, and Amy Wano, who I'm talking about, and they've done a lot of the kind of work that we advocate in the book, I was so amazed, I've never seen a senior team for two hours conducting meeting,
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[SPEAKER_02]: There was required a lot of financial analysis about a particular project and regularly stopped to process everyone's emotions.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it was like, wow, okay, and we spoke afterwards about even them becoming a kind of beacon because people need to know that that's happening and people need to know that's happening also because they work much better, it's not happening just for personal
20:26
[SPEAKER_02]: So, and you know, I meet many leaders at the IMT, I often have 40 global leaders, and we start from a very close place, but I have two and a half days, and by day two, things really change, and something Amy said particularly, you know, because the beginning is really like we don't do vulnerability, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then somewhere in day two, I actually get them writing very personally, and they then go into small groups, and they share what they've been writing, and the floodgates open, always, it's unbelievable.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And one of the things that is most powerful for them in that is to see that everyone is carrying her, to Spain, and fear, and grief, everyone.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And because the whole thing in the old paradigm is one of the same, he said, is, oh, maybe it's just me, maybe everyone else is fine.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So this is group process of wow, well, human and it's so powerful to share it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I always ask each group when they come back because they're from multiple organizations.
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[SPEAKER_02]: If you were a team having gone through this, do you think you'd be performing better?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Of course we would.
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[SPEAKER_02]: There's no doubt because they're energized, their hearts are open and they're having all kinds of insights and ideas.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So it's very on one level it's very practicalness.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking of an organization who maybe is the same one you're referring to but this person said and they were doing a lot of deep work and they said they interact with government agencies and they said people started saying to them like we don't know what it is about you guys but we love we love collaborating with you like there's something different about you and the work you do is brilliant so yeah
22:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think that's important, Joel, because it's as Nicholas said, we're not advocating this purely for personal development.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We genuinely believe that what we're calling in the book next practice is lead to greater psychological safety, lead to greater innovation, lead to greater cross-functional and cross-
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[SPEAKER_00]: boundary collaborations lead to more audacity of aspirations to serve the planet.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We believe that these have concrete implications for the ROI of the business and the social good of how they contribute.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So in that sense, we're very passionate about helping organizations and leaders to embrace some of these practices because we really do believe in the business benefit and the social benefit.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'd love to ask you about, maybe we'll get to the roadmap a little bit here, but I want to also contextualize this in terms of coaches and transformational practitioners listening.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you could each speak to
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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, what's key in this journey that you're advocating for to lead in chaos and, you know, Nicholas, you've talked about awakening and healing and Amy, you have like vertical and horizontal development.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think they kind of fit together really beautifully.
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[SPEAKER_02]: What's the cut the terrain of this
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[SPEAKER_02]: because everyone is in that kind of rhythm, which keeps people up and not feeling themselves, not feeling their body, not feeling their emotions.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So first of all, there has to be a cognitive map about why that's important, and that's quite easy to, it's quite simple anyway.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then the work has to, certainly, my journey is, and I'm sure he misses a similar, that has to be like a reconnection to the body.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I do deep, simple, somatic work, 20, 30 minutes, after which people are sitting in their chairs, often with like, wow.
24:49
[SPEAKER_02]: But I didn't know I could feel like this, like they're in a different frequency.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And the key gateway at least for first part of the journey is always the emotional because that's where we're most protected and that is ultimately a question of safety.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Could it be safe enough that I can actually let myself feel?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And that's a really, it's like a huge threshold that, because once we're through that threshold, we're really the whole field changes and also people are
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[SPEAKER_02]: Um, as you know, I always speak about the mind being the servant, not the master, and it first all the questions of her intellectual and, but after that threshold, people are asking what I would call real questions, like coming from a much deeper place, the whole dialogue shifts to a much deeper level, and things to click, it's like penny's drop inside.
25:52
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we can get on topics like purpose and what you really hear for, what you really loving, what you passionate about and also the whole topic of listening, what does it mean to really be here?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Listen to each other in a much deeper way, be available for higher levels of ideas to come through.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So it's all in to woven.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I call it sometimes putting the USB plug back in because it's like we took it out from all our systems and located ourselves in this thinking modality, which is very, very limited and doesn't actually feel the world.
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[SPEAKER_02]: people need to realize, you can't feel anything with your thinking.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's so simple, but if you're here, you literally don't feel the world.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then you need such substances and everything to have a kind of actual feeling of world.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, I really do, I say, let's, we're going to put the USB plug back in the body.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to put the USB plug back into our emotional body.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to put it back into our intuition.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to put it back into our capacity to reside in a much bigger, more silent space.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And that's the roadmap, at least, much as it can be simply said.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I love what Nicholas said about the importance of unnumbing and being in a greater degree of emotional contact, emotional expression, and emotional cradling by the group.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's all beautiful.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We also do semantics and contemplative practice in what David White calls the politics.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think artistry and ex self-expression are part of the pathway.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But to just speak for a moment, Joel, to what you brought in about the horizontal and the vertical dimension, which I think adds to what Nicholas said.
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[SPEAKER_00]: One of the ways that we're in great pain is that we are too isolated in our own experience, our own...
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[SPEAKER_00]: trembling our own longing, our own uniqueness, there isn't a fabric of interdependence.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There's all this emphasis on autonomy and resilience.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Resilience and a corporate setting means you don't need anything from me.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's the most unnatural way of walking you could ever do your life.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So part of what we're trying to advocate gets restored is the entwining of people to be actually caring for each other, to know personal details about one another's lives.
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[SPEAKER_00]: to be consecrating their work together in a field of real corporate intimacy and relational needs, a vocabulary of relational support and relational requests, which most leaders just don't have.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I think the interpersonal or horizontal dimension, Nicholas mentioned, skills for listening, there's also skills for co-regulation and helping each other to say grounded under very chaotic and crisis moments that we're having more and more.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There's many skills, new on skills of how to build on each other's ideas and ideate together into real collective intelligence with people being able to influence each other and disagree with each other and have robust productive conflict.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So that's the horizontal dimension.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Just to add and round out to what we're saying.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The vertical dimension is also an invitation for people to see spirituality or a relationship
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[SPEAKER_00]: sharing of blessings that everyone has had in their lives to take out of the closet, the luminous, and bring it into the resource of any organization that wants to achieve a high purpose, that wants to do something ambitious and profound for the world, that wants to
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[SPEAKER_00]: take the best of everybody's gifts and generatively coherent them into a collective offering.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think at some point we have to admit that we can't do it in purely intellectual or material playing terms.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The inspiration of the future descends from a field of
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[SPEAKER_00]: deep, questing and willingness to receive and a willingness to be guided.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think we're starting to talk about executive maturity.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Some facet of that maturity includes a quality of surrender and a quality of service.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Beautiful.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Beautiful.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Can I add one thing?
30:30
[SPEAKER_02]: I draw on often a very simple
30:38
[SPEAKER_02]: which is that when you open a book, you have all the black letters, and you have a white page, that is of a totally different dimension, and why do we say an English, the idea came to me, so that you have everyone says that.
31:02
[SPEAKER_02]: So once we get a sense, and then, of course, we are, I also do a lot of meditative practice with groups.
31:09
[SPEAKER_02]: And once we begin to get a sense of the feeling of that, that's a very big thing, because everyone then understands, yeah, I have to, I have felt that occasionally, but I mostly just lost in the black letters.
31:25
[SPEAKER_02]: And then there are practices, I teach practices about,
31:29
[SPEAKER_02]: actually walking through your day in touch with both.
31:33
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why Love Room is famous statement live in the nowhere that you come from, even though you have an address here.
31:43
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, so I'm learning and it's a very real practice that I have a way of teaching it to walk in both realities because when a team does that,
31:55
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like the whole roadmap of reality got so big compared to this, and then we're open to these ideas coming, then ideas can come.
32:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Another way to say what Nicholas is pointing to is that you're teaching people to have one leg in the current reality and one leg anchored in eternity at all times.
32:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
32:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And there are concrete practices having people paint together, having people read and study poetry, engaging with scripture, engaging with the art of creating your own and activating your own voice, all of those things give you practices of being
32:35
[SPEAKER_00]: guided and receiving information and just to be more personal for one second, I would say part of the reason this book happened is that twice in meditation I was given the title leading in chaos and I the first time I just thought oh that's a brilliant title and I ignored it in the second time I took I realized it was a direction and that we had to do something about it so I think it happens exactly as Nicholas said we call that intuition but I'm certain it's also a
33:04
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's like downloads and when the idea comes, it's like a download.
33:10
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think for me, you know, having worked 20, 25 years in the theater in the arts, we were daily in this white page daily because there's no creativity in the arts without that.
33:24
[SPEAKER_02]: But also many scientists know when you start really talking with them, they know exactly what I'm talking about.
33:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, even as we talk about it, I can notice a kind of sense of inspiration, a felt sense of inspirations, start to permeate it.
33:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, Amy, you just shared that, you know, one practice being in a meditation space that then, you know, these thoughts, these ideas can come unbidden,
33:53
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, strikers and I wonder, you know, maybe we could, you know, Nicholas use that there as a practice you do.
34:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Would you be open to sharing a little bit of a practice and Amy, you can also, if you want to add more?
34:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
34:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that okay, Amy?
34:12
[SPEAKER_02]: That's how I do something.
34:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
34:14
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it, it's a practice that has endless levels.
34:21
[SPEAKER_02]: But it starts with a simple attentional practice.
34:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I see that our capacity to pay attention is one of our biggest superpowers.
34:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Because it immediately even measurably changes our brainwave frequency.
34:38
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very interesting when someone is wired up and you guide them to pay attention.
34:43
[SPEAKER_02]: their brain wave frequency measureably changes.
34:47
[SPEAKER_02]: They move from beta wave frequency towards alpha wave frequency, which is the zone in sports, it's the zone that any creative activity takes place in.
34:59
[SPEAKER_02]: So the simplest thing we could do now is to activate our attention.
35:06
[SPEAKER_02]: not stop thinking, but place ourselves as the one who is paying attention and just bring our attention down to our breathing.
35:17
[SPEAKER_02]: And just notice from them, not not trying to change anything, simply noticing all the sensations, all the movements.
35:29
[SPEAKER_02]: And the thinking kind of goes into the
35:37
[SPEAKER_02]: We nerds in, and then the one intentional thing we could do is to soften the heart breath, soften the heart breath, relax the heart breath.
35:57
[SPEAKER_02]: So you have a sense maybe dropping down more towards your base, towards your sitting in your seat.
36:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Just noticing because sensations are continuously changing, and new ones are rising.
36:21
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm a simply curious, wow, this world of sensations.
36:40
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I begin to notice this kind of space inside more space around me, inside me.
36:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm at the kind of, I'm at the portal of the white page simply by this action of paying attention.
37:08
[SPEAKER_02]: So I bought my attention back and I've got it down into my body, and I call that backward circle, back and down.
37:19
[SPEAKER_02]: So I feel more here, I feel more here in my body, and I also have no space.
37:30
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's a very simple beginning.
37:35
[SPEAKER_02]: But then I can also understand that moment to moment, whoever I'm with or whatever meeting I'm in or whatever I'm doing, I can actually trek am I in a backwards circle, or the opposite, which is the forward circle I'm actually, I'm up and I'm out.
37:54
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm towards the world, rather than I'm here, and I let the world come to me.
38:03
[SPEAKER_02]: and many practices teach that, the Alexander technique, for instance, is based on that.
38:11
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is very simple at the beginning.
38:15
[SPEAKER_02]: And many, many leafs as I work with report that it radically changes how they participate in meetings.
38:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I don't know here, and my hope has set your field as much bigger.
38:32
[SPEAKER_02]: because it includes my thinking, but it also is activated.
38:36
[SPEAKER_02]: I have quite different faculties of perception.
38:45
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's not that I have to act slowly.
38:48
[SPEAKER_02]: From here, I could go really fast if I needed to.
38:53
[SPEAKER_02]: I could be fierce if I needed to.
38:56
[SPEAKER_02]: But I'm coming from here.
38:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Coming from here.
39:01
[SPEAKER_02]: It's game-changing, actually, because our habitual way of being is forward.
39:09
[SPEAKER_02]: I learned this from his endmaster about 30 years ago and stayed with me ever since and I've got deeper and deeper into what it really means.
39:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Because that's the gateway to what Amy said, so it's a perfectly having one leg here, and one leg in the world of eternity, because the white page is the river field of eternity.
39:33
[SPEAKER_02]: And we can learn to walk through the day, whatever is happening.
39:38
[SPEAKER_02]: It's our high practice and we just keep developing.
39:45
[SPEAKER_00]: It's beautiful when Nicholas said, and I actually think we can do a whole podcast on this question, Joel, like, how do you actually widen your perceptive field, quiet your mind so that you're available to somatic intelligence, emotional intelligence, relational intelligence, fresh creative sparks of inspiration, all of that.
40:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I would just add one thing, which is then we talk about this in the book.
40:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Part of the pandemic we're inside is a pandemic of superficial conversation.
40:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the ways you start to make the helpful leader to ask and access more profound knowing is you change the nature of the questions you're inviting them to engage.
40:28
[SPEAKER_00]: So in the opening night of my program, for example, I do a guided visualization where people it's multifaceted but for the purpose of this answer, people put their ancestry behind them and I invite them to reflect on
40:43
[SPEAKER_00]: What were the strengths they were born into in their family lineage?
40:47
[SPEAKER_00]: What were the gifts they were given in their family lineage?
40:50
[SPEAKER_00]: But also what were the secrets that their family held?
40:55
[SPEAKER_00]: What was the pain in the country they were born into that their family had to grapple with?
41:00
[SPEAKER_00]: what are their ancestors asking them to heal and metabolize and lay to rest and equally I ask them to put future generations in front of them and to imagine what's theirs to bestow and who are they helping and who are they cradling and who is their responsibility, who are they accountable to.
41:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we let people draw an image of that experience and then speak in small groups about what came to them.
41:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And as Nicholas said, people are often very cheerful.
41:33
[SPEAKER_00]: It invites people to drop the wall through which we mostly speak in superficial and rudenized ways and start to have the real conversation.
41:45
[SPEAKER_00]: the thing that we're pointing at, the femoral possibility only can be accessed through the portal of the real conversation.
41:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Go, how are you doing?
41:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Cause I have a sense of you kind of.
42:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm doing good.
42:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I really appreciate the invitation you made.
42:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, also love that one.
42:12
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I do.
42:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I think what I'm sat with is, I'm imagining therefore, when each of you are with leaders individually or with groups, then you're tracking the quality of the conversation, the frequency of a conversation and where people are speaking from and what the work is an invitation
42:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And I will sometimes give the group the metaphor of an elevator.
42:48
[SPEAKER_00]: You can have the conversation on the ground floor.
42:50
[SPEAKER_00]: You can have the conversation on the lower lobby, or you can have the conversation at the root.
42:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And make it a group of sensibility to track how we're doing with that, how capable are we of granting one another access to what's in our interiority.
43:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's mostly not that we're afraid of telling it to each other.
43:10
[SPEAKER_00]: It's mostly that we're afraid to encounter
43:13
[SPEAKER_00]: what we normally try to know.
43:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And that does take a while.
43:17
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a practice.
43:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe I mean it's coming into my mind.
43:24
[SPEAKER_02]: So you choose if you want to go here, Joel.
43:26
[SPEAKER_02]: But what is this calling coaches to step into?
43:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you want to go there now?
43:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely.
43:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
43:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
43:40
[SPEAKER_01]: that the phrase be a blessing, you know, what is the field came to my mind as well, so that might tap into this.
43:47
[SPEAKER_01]: So please just follow what came to you, Nicholas, if so.
43:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, one thing because as you know, running intensive six months training programs and then quite a lot of people continue.
44:02
[SPEAKER_02]: I have one group who's in training for a year and a half.
44:07
[SPEAKER_02]: And I find myself from saying at a certain point that actually you need to be willing to also be a teacher.
44:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Not for your clients.
44:20
[SPEAKER_02]: In the sense of standing clearly for something different to what they used to, standing clearly for entering the kinds of conversations Amy is talking about.
44:33
[SPEAKER_02]: And standing clearly for
44:36
[SPEAKER_02]: repeatedly helping your client come back to their experience rather than their narrative, because that's the pandemic.
44:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Everyone goes into analysis and narrative rather than this is what's actually happening in me now.
44:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's a different calling, I think, a teacher maybe sounds a bit dramatic, but I feel there's something important about that now as a practitioner, and a lot of the people I work trained who often very, very experienced
45:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, they go into a threshold of what I dare do this with my corporate clients because it's so not the normal corporate coaching.
45:25
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's inviting obviously most of the training is about what space you're sitting in as a coach and how open is your perceptual field?
45:36
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, when I first met one of our very, very great teachers Thomas Hupel, and I saw him work with people, and I was like, what, like, how are you seeing so deep?
45:51
[SPEAKER_02]: So fast, I just never seen it.
45:54
[SPEAKER_02]: And I said, I was like, how are you doing this?
45:57
[SPEAKER_02]: And he said, well, all the information is available.
46:02
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, well, I hear that, but it's definitely not for me.
46:07
[SPEAKER_02]: But over the years, it is more and more and more.
46:10
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm training coaches to have that.
46:14
[SPEAKER_02]: to be sitting so deep in their heart, openness, and their embodied presence, that the interior of the client effortlessly is available, like every corner of their trauma, every corner of how their body is holding something.
46:32
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a very different training to most.
46:35
[SPEAKER_02]: coaching training which is much more cognitive-based and strategic, so it is a blessing feel that because you're coming in this deeply embodied heart open field and it also of course brings in the all-important principle of radical inclusion that everything even when you said earlier I just want to come back to you said getting going out of trauma now we have to actually go
47:05
[SPEAKER_02]: with radical inclusion.
47:07
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no hierarchy of feeling.
47:10
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no trying to get to a better feeling.
47:13
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a radical principle for coaches to accept that.
47:17
[SPEAKER_02]: We're just trying to actually be here as fully with what is truly happening at every level.
47:25
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's a high-calling coaching.
47:28
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I love what happens when I see these experienced coaches start to work in this way.
47:35
[SPEAKER_02]: And they're often blown away by what starts to happen with their clients, even when they hold a little bit more of that space.
47:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a lot more to say, but that's, you know, a start.
47:55
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, about being a teacher, like a hearing that there's taking a stand, you know, that exactly.
48:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And that that stand affects the kind of invitation you are, the container you hold.
48:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And also invites you to your developmental edge.
48:11
[SPEAKER_01]: And I wonder, you know, I think that's something maybe we don't talk to practitioners about so much.
48:18
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like,
48:20
[SPEAKER_01]: people learn so much from other people, and that's very powerful, but also have you spent the time to articulate who you are as a practitioner and what stand you take.
48:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I wonder if that's something you do.
48:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think that's what you're doing in the book, you know?
48:39
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what it is.
48:40
[SPEAKER_01]: That's taking a second.
48:42
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it couldn't be clear.
48:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think Joel, what you're pointing to is that
48:49
[SPEAKER_00]: There are two general movements.
48:52
[SPEAKER_00]: There's directive coaching and there's facilitative coaching.
48:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of practitioners have been cultivating the listening, receptive, guiding, accompanying facet for a long time.
49:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And as people are craving more and more wisdom, more and more orientation, more and more adaptive capacity.
49:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I think practitioners are also going to have to be willing to offer their counsel, offer their confrontation, offer their, I don't know what's quite the word, it's cartography of development because people need to understand the landscape of how do you grow your consciousness and to have a map for how to create a cultivated inner life.
49:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And ultimately, I think
49:41
[SPEAKER_00]: that requires the practitioner having gone on their own deep journey.
49:45
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not company anybody anywhere in any terrain that we haven't already explored in ourselves.
49:51
[SPEAKER_00]: The ceiling on what people share with you, bring to you, confide in you,
49:56
[SPEAKER_00]: grant you authority to speak to them on.
49:59
[SPEAKER_00]: The ceiling is your inner development.
50:03
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, Nicholas mentioned our teacher Thomas, Thomas's constantly coming back to the notion that you are the instrument of the transformation of your client.
50:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And if I may, I really just want to vouch all to the work that coaches rising is doing because for years you have been pointing practitioners to this central tenant that doing your own inner work and doing your own inner healing and your own awakening journey is the most central and essential thing you can do if you want to have deeper and more profound.
50:36
[SPEAKER_00]: impact with clients.
50:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think Nicholas and I believe that very deeply and one of the things the book aspires to do is to give practitioners a bit of what that roadmap looks like.
50:48
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a 100% the essence.
50:52
[SPEAKER_02]: It has to be for anyone who's a practitioner that you are work and I speak for myself also is continuous.
51:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And we can only hold people to the level that we feel we've been to and feel safe enough that nothing will throw us off if someone touches deep trauma.
51:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Just share one anecdote last year, Thomas and I taught a year-long course on trauma and form coaching and consulting to 200 practitioners around the world.
51:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And they reported that as they got more comfortable exploring their own trauma and their own.
51:29
[SPEAKER_00]: emotional terrain, automatically, they didn't have to change their questions or their technique or their math coaching methodology, automatically they become a different field of invitation that produces clients sharing much deeper than they would have previously thought was possible or appropriate in a business context.
51:49
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I feel very optimistic that these shifts communicate themselves, body to body, they transmit a widening of the aperture of what's possible and appropriate to talk about in any individual session as the coach expands themselves.
52:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and I like that.
52:08
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the cartography word is very important because at a certain moment, I think we have to draw the cartography of trauma, personal trauma, lineage trauma, collective trauma.
52:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I was fortunate enough to work with two African-American CEOs, one from Leeds, a huge organization, and neither of them had really even thought about the effect of the collective trauma of their race.
52:41
[SPEAKER_02]: And as we, and the elevator, I use elevator in a slightly different way, because it's like we go down and down and down, emotionally and somatically, to we hit that territory.
52:56
[SPEAKER_02]: That huge period of slavery was sitting in their whole psychophysical body and clearly affecting them in their everyday life.
53:08
[SPEAKER_02]: but that has that cartography has to be explained.
53:12
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very important when it looks at what's happening here.
53:16
[SPEAKER_00]: This is really important.
53:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I just want to underscore it.
53:19
[SPEAKER_00]: People underestimate the degree to which individual and ancestral and collective trauma is operating inside of readers shaping their identity, shaping their self-esteem, shaping their
53:32
[SPEAKER_00]: ways of just making decisions, shaping their ability to create intimacy in the workplace, many, many, many, many, many things come from untreated trauma on recognized trauma, unnamed trauma, and part of the reason why organizations are so disembodied, dysfunctional, and dehumanized is because they're being led by a guided by people who have yet to start their inner work.
53:55
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is why it is a collective problem or a collective opportunity, I guess I would say.
54:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And what do you think about, because we've explored this in our trainings and our previous conversations individually.
54:12
[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things we get in our trainings are people who say, I understand this.
54:20
[SPEAKER_01]: But is this, are we moving into therapy here?
54:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Is this coaching, what is this?
54:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's important to have that conversation.
54:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's important to know your scope of practice.
54:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's ethically really important.
54:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And at the same time, I often feel like in myself, let me speak for myself, you know, that it actually reveals more about my own developmental edge where I feel fear with my client, with the territories we may go into.
55:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And I guess I'm in general asking you about, you know, what's your sense of the call for practitioners in our times and in the ways they need to equip themselves and even view the territory of their work?
55:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, do you have any thoughts on that?
55:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Because, yeah.
55:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll offer two and Nicholas may see this very differently actually.
55:25
[SPEAKER_00]: One is, I think it's irresponsible for anybody to be practicing the dialogue practices of group process or individual coaching without at least being.
55:37
[SPEAKER_00]: hitting the threshold of being trauma-informed, training and understanding what hyper arousal and hyper arousal looks like, knowing what it means to be in the presence of somebody who's triggered in D-skills and knowing skills for co-regulation.
55:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's the minimum bar and I don't think it messes with the scope of what a coach should do versus what a therapist should do.
55:59
[SPEAKER_00]: That's one thing.
56:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And the second thing I would say is that for true vertical development, I do think it needs to be done by people who are therapeutically trained, trauma trained.
56:09
[SPEAKER_00]: What we call trauma restorative work, not trauma informed work, trauma restorative work should be done by trauma trained therapists and in my deeper leadership programs, I have a team of four, five or sometimes six.
56:21
[SPEAKER_00]: trauma therapy is working with me in the program because we're inviting people to surface, long held emotions, long held succents and sensations, buried fears on process memories, and I would never do that.
56:36
[SPEAKER_00]: In the absence of having people who can skillfully work with metabolizing what's arising.
56:42
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think the coaching field has to expand its versatility in trauma, understanding, trauma in recognition and trauma containment without reaching into the area of actually doing counseling or doing trauma integration work, which I think should still be and needs to be done by people who have much more extensive training in that domain.
57:07
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm very thrilled to say that I think increasingly people are knowing where their scope of practice isn't getting additional training to why and their scope of practice if that's a interest.
57:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess I would just add one more thing, which is what you said earlier, Joel, which is...
57:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Any coach or any facilitator can, by studying human history and speaking with people about what they've walked and what they've lived, why in their hearts ability to receive painful information.
57:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think if we're going to, as a human family, attempt to restore any of the violence genocide, racism, collective trauma that has been done by our ancestors and true, which I believe it is our responsibility to address, then all of us have to cultivate a kind of compassion and
58:03
[SPEAKER_00]: extension to be willing to look at the shadow side of life and to bear witness to great pain.
58:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's something any one of us can commit to do to expand our heart's ability to do that.
58:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think now is the time.
58:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Nicholas, I don't know what you would add to that.
58:33
[SPEAKER_02]: you as a coach knowing exactly what your limitations are.
58:38
[SPEAKER_02]: and but also being clearer about that and clearer I often talk about the contract like what contract you can set up with your client at the beginning even on a without even talking about trauma are you going to set up a contract where they're going to understand that you can often ask them what's happening inside them not what they're only what they're thinking that's already
59:06
[SPEAKER_02]: a very important part of them, a client, and standing, that's going to be a very central part of what we do in this work, rather than constantly trying to figure things out.
59:18
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's the need for real clarity from cultures.
59:22
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's more, it's a very complex territory in a way, because it also depends how we define the word trauma.
59:35
[SPEAKER_02]: But certainly, I think the more coach does their own in a work which has to be, has to be their first commitment, just as we would invite leaders to make that first commitment.
59:49
[SPEAKER_02]: The more naturally it becomes possible to work at deeper levels.
59:54
[SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes it's enough.
59:57
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the gets more complex, but
1:00:00
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, when someone let's say is in quite an emotional process and you as the coach can feel this has an ancestral frequency here, like it, you know, your father, his father, most probably had some of the feeling you're having now, and naming that and holding that together already amplifies a healing process.
1:00:28
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's helpful and I think without getting too into the weeds on this particular topic, the question comes up around, you know, what is the need for coaches then?
1:00:44
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, in a sense, like why not?
1:00:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Why don't we just train an army of trauma therapists, you know, highly skilled trauma therapists, like, yeah, what is the need for coaches in the
1:00:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm first of all, I think there's a continuum but I think many coaches are capable of having extraordinary conversations and explorations with their clients that add incredible value and they're straddling the interior life with the organizational dynamics, with the career trajectory, with their contribution and purpose in the world.
1:01:20
[SPEAKER_00]: They're holding a huge range of
1:01:24
[SPEAKER_00]: concerns for an executive that are not purely therapeutic in nature, but really meeting them in all the dimensions of their work-life balance and their well-being and health and their aspirations and the business and the things that are getting in their way and that they're not doing so productively.
1:01:40
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't want in any way discount coaching.
1:01:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And what I would say is that I think there's
1:01:47
[SPEAKER_00]: threshold were on where we're going to see coaches and therapists collaborating much more closely because we're going to need to as things get more chaotic, attend to what are really psychological matters in the context of a larger coaching engagement.
1:02:01
[SPEAKER_00]: So I know Nicholas is and Mobius is starting to do these executive retreats where one executive or executive their spouse come for two full days in private.
1:02:11
[SPEAKER_00]: and work on a range of issues, some very leadership centric in the foreground and some more psychotherapeutic in the foreground, but in combination so that you don't have to privatize your pain and think of your leadership as divorced from the insights you're gaining about your history or family or early childhood, your patterns, but that this can all be looked at holistically and comprehensively by two gifted and differently prepared practitioners.
1:02:41
[SPEAKER_00]: really the cutting edge of this work.
1:02:44
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, yeah, I've absolutely and if we come out of the weeds from which is such a rich we could have a whole podcast about this.
1:02:56
[SPEAKER_02]: What we're what we're saying in the book first of all is that everything you do is the leader, the whole impact you have,
1:03:09
[SPEAKER_02]: sits on your inner level of development, and coherence or varying degrees of fragmentation.
1:03:20
[SPEAKER_02]: For me, that's a core theme in the book, and I'll happily frame it too.
1:03:25
[SPEAKER_02]: So therefore, in one way or another, in a development needs to be the first priority, equally for the practitioner and for the leader, because everything we do depends on our, in the whole way we see everything, the whole way we experience everything, depends on our inner condition.
1:03:47
[SPEAKER_02]: So all our change initiatives are augmented or diminished according to our inner condition.
1:03:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's a principle that needs to be more widely and stirred.
1:03:59
[SPEAKER_02]: I've only come to understand it more deeply in the last year or two.
1:04:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Just the fullness of what that means.
1:04:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Because then we understand why I have to do my inner development.
1:04:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Because that's why when in all the leadership programs, of course, we talk about the leadership landscape.
1:04:23
[SPEAKER_02]: but there's more emphasis on the innovative element because once certain points are released and opened, the whole way you perceive the landscape changes.
1:04:33
[SPEAKER_02]: The whole way you think about it, the whole way you feel the different people in it changes.
1:04:39
[SPEAKER_02]: According to your level of depth of presence and openness.
1:04:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And I also want to honor the traditions of coaching.
1:04:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, somatic coaching, ontological coaching, neurolingual stick coaching, present space coaching, Gestalt coaching, all of these are practices that help coaches help leaders become more embodied, more emotionally open, more relationally attuned.
1:05:05
[SPEAKER_00]: more tied to their core values and purpose, so I don't want to suggest, I don't think we want to suggest that trauma work is the only high value kind of personal inner development.
1:05:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I would be very remiss to do that, but we would equally say we can't relegate it to the private treatment rooms of therapy any longer.
1:05:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:05:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that seems like the massive opportunity, actually, to not do that, to bring it into the developmental work we do in organizations.
1:05:38
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
1:05:39
[SPEAKER_01]: So as we come towards the end of our conversation, I'd love to ask about, you know, in a sense, like the outcome maybe of our integrative workers,
1:05:53
[SPEAKER_01]: that we can enact a different kind of leadership and that phrase to be a blessing and in the book also there was a sense of writing about hey, what are you serving in the world as well?
1:06:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And one of you could speak into that and maybe anything that as we come to the end, you'd like to make as an invitation to listeners.
1:06:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, what could be more important now?
1:06:20
[SPEAKER_02]: The nature of us really trying to take responsibility for what we are transmitting into the world moment to moment to moment.
1:06:31
[SPEAKER_02]: What could be more important for all of us, I 100% include myself or a leader, to really start to commit, to looking as consciously as possible into what they're transmitting.
1:06:47
[SPEAKER_02]: how they're holding people, how they're thinking about situations, and ultimately what are they wanting to contribute?
1:06:57
[SPEAKER_02]: What are they wanting to do?
1:06:59
[SPEAKER_02]: And ultimately why are they here?
1:07:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Because my experience is that when most people look deeply enough, and someone put an amazing post on LinkedIn about the book the other day, where she said, you know, when I
1:07:16
[SPEAKER_02]: but actually deep down, it's much deeper than that.
1:07:21
[SPEAKER_02]: It was a beautiful post, you remember.
1:07:24
[SPEAKER_02]: And she said that your book has helped me actually realise I need stand deeper and who I really am.
1:07:33
[SPEAKER_02]: So what could be more important than that in this time of such pain and suffering and chaos?
1:07:39
[SPEAKER_02]: The people connect more and more deeply to their heart.
1:07:44
[SPEAKER_02]: to their innate, deep, wanting to contribute.
1:07:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Everyone deep down once that.
1:07:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And everyone deep down is looking for the way back to love.
1:08:02
[SPEAKER_02]: That for me has become very clear and even in the last few months I see and feel that differently.
1:08:09
[SPEAKER_02]: That's actually the core topic.
1:08:14
[SPEAKER_02]: all the problems in the world come from a break in the flow of love, whether it's on the relationship level or geopolitical love.
1:08:26
[SPEAKER_00]: While Nicholas is talking, I'm thinking of this exquisite song by the Akapela group Sweet Honey in the Rock, which has a theme that says, will you harbor me?
1:08:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's a time where things are going to get harrowing, things are harrowing for many people on the planet as we're speaking.
1:08:45
[SPEAKER_00]: And we need to learn to be sanctuaries for one another.
1:08:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And the book ends really with a prayer that each of us increasingly can hold and embrace the hurt parts of ourselves, can witness and comfort and attend to the hurt parts of the fabric of life.
1:09:05
[SPEAKER_00]: and can dwell in the part of the heart that is never hurt and holds the eternal flame of the divine in sanctuary.
1:09:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's our fondest hope that we increasingly become sanctuary to one another.
1:09:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it feels like I really point in place to bring our conversation to a close and, you know, yeah.
1:09:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I really feel that there's the timing of this book feel so pertinent as you spoke to in yeah, 26 has kind of started with a bang and as you're saying, Amy, you know, I don't know where we're heading, things could get very challenging, so yeah, I hope this conversation serves as a, as a harbour in a sense, as a moment of refuge.
1:10:06
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd love to just read one thing quickly, Joel.
1:10:09
[SPEAKER_02]: It's from the, yeah.
1:10:11
[SPEAKER_02]: No, Nikita is low here as well, if you like, yeah.
1:10:14
[SPEAKER_02]: OK, I usually read slowly.
1:10:17
[SPEAKER_02]: This is Michael Michael Watkins.
1:10:20
[SPEAKER_02]: In leading in chaos, ancient wisdom traditions speak to quarterly earnings.
1:10:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Trauma Healing becomes
1:10:32
[SPEAKER_02]: The body's intelligence supersedes the mind's calculations, prayer and spreadsheets coexist.
1:10:42
[SPEAKER_02]: This isn't new age wishful thinking, but a rigorous argument that unless we reunite body in mind, heart and strategy, sacred and secular, we will continue to create the conditions that threaten
1:11:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Amen.
1:11:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Amen to that.
1:11:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:11:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
1:11:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, Joel.
1:11:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Joel.
1:11:11
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, Joel.
1:11:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Joel.
1:11:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:11:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And we can find the book on Amazon or other places and connect with you both on LinkedIn.
1:11:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:11:21
[SPEAKER_00]: We would love that.
1:11:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Here we are.
1:11:24
[SPEAKER_01]: We're at the end of the podcast.
1:11:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Just do a heads up again.
1:11:27
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're not on our mailing list and you want to stay in the loop about other things we create, then head to coaches rising dot com put your name in the sign up box there.
1:11:36
[SPEAKER_01]: You'll also find some of our other offerings online trainings for coaches there and just want to end by wishing you well and I'll see you again next time.
1:12:01
[UNKNOWN]: Thank you.