Latest / We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits / Gather At The Well: Understanding and Healing Compassion Fatigue - Lindsey Fuller and Dr. Jacquelyn Ollison

Transcript

Gather At The Well: Understanding and Healing Compassion Fatigue - Lindsey Fuller and Dr. Jacquelyn Ollison · We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: I'm Lindsay and it's time to gather at the well.
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: We're on a mission to microdose wellness, create human-centered systems and retain our greatest asset our people.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: We believe it's time for podcasts that teach moving beyond thought leadership and towards change leadership.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Join us and our friends at we Are For good as we model the way with concrete examples from the field and gain tangible tools, because it's possible to build adult work cultures.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: We don't need to heal from.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Let's get into it.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: All right, welcome back.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to Gather at the Well.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: I'm so excited.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: I'm honored to be in conversation today with Dr Jacqueline Olson I call her Dr J a deeply respected leader in the education space whose work has shaped classrooms, policies and systems across California and beyond.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: So I'm really excited to center her multiple decades of experience advocating for equity and justice and educator well-being.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: She's hella aligned with the teaching well and she's also a leader at Cal Berkeley's Creo Center where she's reimagining, along with a phenomenal team of scholars, what support looks like for teachers, especially educators of color.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: She's also a passionate voice on compassion fatigue and that's really what we're going to be jumping into today.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: It's where her doctoral research centered and where she's published a book.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Because she's a baddie.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: She's published that's like legit.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: So, in her words, educators are first responders and it's time we start treating them that way.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: Whether you're a teacher, nonprofit leader or someone committed to human-centered change, dr J brings some wisdom.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: Dr J, we're so happy you're here.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: And always I never know, like, what to do with those introductions, because I'm the kind of person who's like yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, okay, move on.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: But I could say the same about you.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: You're an amazing leader and I'm really grateful for this opportunity.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: So thank you for having me.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: Dope.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: No well, look, we are getting into it, and I think that this conversation is going to further illustrate the importance of not just self-care but self-awareness and healing-centered interventions for educators, for nonprofit social sector folks, for leaders in general.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: So I'm really excited.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: But first I want to invite us into a grounding somatic just to help our listeners transition from whatever busy life they are leading and to be more present.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: Just get comfortable for a moment.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: You might adjust your body, stacking your vertebrae Again, you've heard me say it and that continuity hopefully allows you to just drop in with greater ease.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: You want your body to be in an alert but relaxed position, anchoring your feet into the ground and, if it feels good, to close your eyes or lower your gaze.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: We're actually going to start with a bit of positive friction and a gentle self-touch.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: There's going to need to be a lot of self-compassion in today's conversation and beyond, so to do this, we might just first begin with three deep breaths in through the nose and out through the mouth.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: Ah welcoming your audible exhales.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: Two more, just like that.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: And with this next out breath, I want to encourage you to actually build some positive friction.
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: What I mean by that is keeping those eyes closed or lowered gaze.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: You're actually going to rub your hands together, the palms of your hand.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: You can do this discreetly underneath your table.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: If you're listening to this and multitasking in the office, that's your business, welcome in.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: But also you can do it in a comfortable position, just building some positive friction, some warmth in those hands.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: Now I want you to pick one place on your body where you're hoping to bring some TLC, that tender love and care, and you might just move those warm hands to that place.
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: I'm going to my heart space putting those warm hands and pressing them across my chest, just reminding myself that it's been a long week and a long month.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: I'm doing the best that I can and I'm practicing that gentle self-compassion in this moment.
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: One more deep breath here.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let's get into it.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: So, dr J, we need to first break down this concept of compassion fatigue.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: You have defined it, you have broken it all the way down.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: So I wonder if you can speak to what is compassion fatigue, especially in the context of education and social impact work.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: I think that I mean there's all these formal definitions, but I would say it's really the physical, mental and emotional exhaustion that comes with working with people who are in constant states of distress or trauma.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: So it's that emotional toll.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: Like you have definitions where you know more formal might say it's a combination between secondary traumatic stress and burnout, between secondary traumatic stress and burnout.
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: Right, and when we think about education we always hear about teachers being burned out like all the time, right, overworked, lots of you know excessive workload, things like that.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: But when you couple that with secondary trauma, which is experiencing like traumatic events that maybe don't happen to you firsthand but they happen to the people you're working with, especially kids, it takes a toll that we don't talk about enough.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: I can give you an example, like I think, for secondary trauma, I think the and secondary traumatic stress people call it like it's like post-traumatic stress syndrome, except for it didn't happen directly to you, it happened because you witnessed it.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: So I will think about I'm going to bring up George Floyd, may he rest in peace what happened to him during the pandemic.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: You remember, everybody collectively watched that and they felt it and they felt that stress and that pain and anger, and they couldn't shut it off and you couldn't think about it.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: They weren't the one who had the knee on their neck, but they experienced it just the same.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: So that's what I think about.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: And when we're working with kids, if kids are going through things, any teacher who's worth their weight in gold experiences it.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean when I say that?
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: I sure do.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, this is real.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: And what I appreciate that you're illustrating is kind of the progression.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: It's not that we want a badge to get all the way deep into burnout, but I was recently in a nonprofit space and a lot of folks were like I think that we've lost some of the power behind the term burnout because it's being overused.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: It's kind of being socialized.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: Folks are like rough Monday, I'm burnt out, right and, and so what I appreciate about what you're illustrating and similarly, we believe that the teaching well, is there's actually a spectrum of from fatigue to ill health and it's really important actually for us to build self-awareness to be able to more accurately name where we are in service of microdosing wellness and intervening in ways that can support you and shift you back towards greater balance.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I really appreciate that.
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: Can you speak some more um, dr J, to like what are some of the signs?
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: Okay, it might not be in us, it might be in our colleagues, because it's not just working with kids.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: Some people might be like oh well, I don't work with kids, some of us work with hot mess express colleagues, it's on our own staff, right or we serve adults that are dysregulated and the political climate right and social media is actually, I would argue, inviting in images, stories and traumas at a rate that is unmanageable and unhealthy.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I think I can give you some examples, and I also just want to add on, like I'm totally cosigning on everything that you said.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: I do think it is an overused term, but it's like when we look at compassion fatigue, what the research shows is that this can impact your mental health.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: It becomes like a mental health condition.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: Post-traumatic stress disorder is a mental health issue and a concern.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: Secondary traumatic stress should be the same, but what was happening and why it was so important to me is that people weren't recognizing it as that.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: And we're sitting in teachers and teachers are in this space and they're not healthy.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: What I would say some examples of compassion fatigue might be you might be physically and emotionally exhausted.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: You're not that same pet that you might have.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: You might be experiencing anxiety.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: You might be experiencing depression.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: You might be much more irritable than you were before.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: You might start to do social withdrawal, not want to hang out and connect with people, but when I was thinking about this question, I actually want to describe some of the things teachers were saying that they were doing, and so I'm going to read it because I don't want to get this wrong.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: Emotional pain that stems from being able to relate to the personal backgrounds of their traumatized students, like teachers who may have grown up poor and know what it's like to not have resources right, compartmentalizing emotions, not being able to feel empathy for kids, being angry with a kid who might be experiencing a lot of things as opposed to showing care, maybe feeling terrible or afraid or worried all the time about their students Like that worrying that keeps you up at night.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: You can't sleep, yeah, like you go home from work and you're still thinking about work late into the evening.
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: I've seen people like definitely becoming less compassionate, short-tempered, writing kids up with referrals when they wouldn't normally do that.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: But you know what else we're seeing, lindsay, it's people not wanting to go to work.
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: Hello.
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: Chronic absenteeism Right.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: And people are doing that as a way of self-care.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: Now I've heard people say, well, I just take the day off.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: But if you're taking it so much more, then what we need to be thinking about is how are we building capacity in our teachers to be able to deal effectively with some of the things that are happening to them, that they're experiencing?
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: So it's not just a matter of, well, I'm going to leave or I'm just going to kick the kid out or I'm going to write a referral.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: It's how do I deal with what's happening with me in a way that I can thrive and I can create an environment that my kids will thrive in as well?
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: Ooh, this is a whole testimony.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: What we started to talk about the teaching wall, is this concept of a PTO snowball ball.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: When one educator or one nonprofit staffer calls out because they need a mental health day and there are no subs because we have a sub shortage, so other educators have to use their preps, their lunch, their breaks to cover these classrooms.
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: Then they need a PTO day.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: And then the folks that cover them right, and so this was building for weeks at this school site, and then the folks that cover them right, and so this was building for weeks at this school site.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: And the reality is that we need to figure out how to recognize.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: We say the first step in stress management is noticing.
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: How do we recognize, how do we notice, how do we become self-aware?
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: And then how do we advocate in pro-social ways?
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: That says I actually need support and I want to intervene before I'm at the point of needing to be out.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: But I just want to underscore some of the?
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: Um, some of the similarities.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: Some of what you described in the teacher experience is very similar to the social impact sector, to folks in philanthropy, uh, that are doing tremendous amounts of travel and realizing the toll of travel, um, this rumination at the end of the night where you're still thinking about rehearsing.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: It's an anxiety-based behavior Conversations that have already happened or the ones that have yet to come, when you're over planning for meetings, to meet with families, to meet with stakeholders.
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: Right, and for me personally, I'll say a part of how I knew I had compassion fatigue as an administrator who was often breaking up fights and chasing kids down streets in deep East Oakland, and I've shared with it in season one in microdosing wellness.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: But I had a one-year-old I only had one baby, not three at the time and I would get home and she would naturally want to climb all over me.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: That's what babies do.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: She would want to be picked up.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: I would get home and she would naturally want to climb all over me.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: That's what babies do.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: She would want to be picked up, she would want to be held and I was so incredibly touched out.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: I was so dysregulated and exhausted and everything felt like such a lift that I couldn't manage it.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: So I'm really grateful that you centered these.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: I do wonder about.
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: I see a really clear link between human-centered leadership and wanting to be a servant leader, wanting to put your people first and create thriving conditions in the workplace.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: I see human-centered leaders at a higher risk sometimes for compassion fatigue.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: It's not just the stakeholders that they're fighting for through their mission it's, if you're a nonprofit, or the fight to get kids on and above grade level in schools, but it's also them trying to care for their staff.
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what I'm hearing.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: I was curious, like who would get, who would be more susceptible to compassion fatigue right, who's much more likely to get it?
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: What the research was showing in, like social fields, it's that if you are someone who well, if you're female right, this is why it's a big deal with teaching, because majority of teachers are women If you are dealing with younger clients or younger students, people who are young and experiencing trauma, that tends to have a much stronger impact.
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: One of the things I saw was that, depending on the person's kind of like I'm going to say the way they roll through the world, do they have like, a mindfulness practice or a spiritual practice or a way that helps them make sense and cope with all the different things that happen in their life?
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: In the absence of that, what tends to happen is people don't know what to do with it, right, they don't have a way of like thinking about it.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: Another thing that I found and this is going to be it's interesting, it's controversial is being an empathetic person.
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: When you have the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes, you have the ability to feel what they're feeling.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: Right, you could feel it, you can sense it.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: And if you feel that sometimes, without some of the other coping mechanisms that we have, or the way I'm going to use coping mechanisms, or the capacity to deal with things, right, that that can take its toll as well.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: You've heard people say it like empathy fatigue, right?
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: Well, what I'm saying with compassion fatigue and why I think it's such a problem with our education or something that has to be addressed, is that if you have all of that and you're experiencing burnout, which tends to come from excessive workloads, a feeling like you have a lack of control over the work that you are doing, maybe even a mismatch, maybe you're not even in the right role.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: If you combine all of that, that's when it becomes much more problematic.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: So when I saw it in education, I'm like well, hold on.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: A second.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: Majority of our teachers are female.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: They're working with kids.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: If you're working in high poverty schools, where kids tend to experience a lot more traumatic circumstances or eases and the majority of our students in California qualify for free or reduced price lunch this is something that I think is systemic, that we need to really talk about, and it doesn't just happen to teachers, it happens to leaders too, right?
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: And I was just thinking like man, if you all saw that this was a problem with first responders you saw it happening in nurses, saw it happening in doctors, you saw it happening in therapists and we would take steps to make sure that people understood that this could be like an occupational hazard and it could cause harm.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: So steps to make sure that people understood that this could be like an occupational hazard and it could cause harm.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: So let's make sure that we're raising awareness, giving people tools to deal with it.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: Why haven't we done that for educators, especially when those are the people who are with our kids.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: I want to know, when I'm sending my baby into that classroom, that they're going to be with someone who's healthy and able to give their best and wants to give their best.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: Legasp, I'm over here clutching my pearls.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: You're right.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: First of all, I also like visualized like a empathetic, cross-sector coalition, right?
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: I've long been saying that actually the social sector to me encompasses not just the nonprofit sector but anybody who does service work, caring for other people to enhance society.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: And so when I hear you saying an occupational hazard, it makes me really curious why in so many spaces folks are wholly unaware of the concept of compassion fatigue Like this should be in all HR trainings, this should be in policy handbooks.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: Here are the supports we put in place as compassion fatigue and burnout prevention.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: It's in your benefits package, it's in your onboarding conversation.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: It's just fascinating.
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: And yesterday I was actually in a space with 12 nonprofit leaders in Northern California and a couple of funders to really talk about the state of philanthropy and what's needed in this moment.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: And as we looked around the room, eight of the 12 were women and I believe eight were also BIPOC and one of the leaders named she's like the face of the nonprofit landscape is changing.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: There are millions of nonprofits, but the face of leadership is changing.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: And as we diversify the workforce and as this country's diversity increases which is such a beautiful thing, right it does make me wonder also about how we continue to think about culturally responsive or culturally sustaining practices and I talk about this in microdosing on the margins episode.
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: But I'm like, if we have the audacity to hire a diverse staff, then we better figure out how to meet their needs.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: So I think what you're, what you're naming, is really potent, and I had a little checklist going in my mind.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: I'm like, oh woman, oh, I work with young people.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: Oh no, I like can transfer accidentally some of their traumas with my own as a trauma survivor, as someone that grew up, um, in challenging circumstances and somebody who's empathetic, I was like, oh God, I'm like one of the poster children.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's the point.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: It's like so many of those boxes were checked, but it's checked for all a lot of teachers right Enough to it's enough people to say that, yes, we do owe people this professional courtesy and this professional respect.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: What I see about teachers and leaders who are in these types of spaces that are all about service and support is that you typically are planners I think you talked about that right.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: So if you have the information ahead of time, then you can plan to do something about it.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: I think what frustrates me the most is the fact that because people don't talk about it, people don't know what is happening to them, right?
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: They don't know that this is a possibility, and so there's a lot of guilt.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: Especially when I was looking at high poverty schools, urban schools, there was a lot of guilt around feeling like you want to do as much as you can to help your kids or your students and you don't have control over that and you can't.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: So when someone is, you know, experiencing maybe they're being abused at home, right, or something like that and you're trying to help and you have no control over that, you feel guilty about that.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: When someone is feeling like emotionally overwhelmed and they don't quite get why they're feeling emotionally overwhelmed and then they take the day off.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: They feel guilty for that Right, and so there's this guilt.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: So people really want to do their best.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: I think, as a system, it's our responsibility to make sure we're giving them all the tools that they can so that they can do their best, and so I personally.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: It's like what, like if I had my dream, if you could just raise enough awareness about that.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: This is a possibility Doesn't mean that that's going to happen to you, but we just want you to be mindful that when you're working with kids, you're going through a lot.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: It could take a toll on you.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: So here's some ways you can take care of yourself.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, why wouldn't we do that a toll on you?
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: So here are some ways you can take care of yourself.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: I mean, why wouldn't we do that?
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: Isn't that fair?
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, wouldn't that be the most?
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: just respectful, beautiful thing that we can give people.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: I mean respectful and it'd be good for business, for the person that's listening that isn't.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: Maybe the empath is like still trying to be convinced that human centered leadership is the way.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: This is good for business when your people aren't burnt out.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: This is good for retention.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: This is great for productivity.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: This is great for organizational health and culture.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: Continuity of care for those you serve Like this is a best practice in the business industry If that appeals to folks more than it's the right thing to do for people who care and serve.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: Okay, so let me ask you this, because we're starting to get to like what the system should do I'm really interested in your thoughts on how policies can contribute to burnout or disconnection.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: Right Like codified systems benefits, all of that like the human centered leader that's structuring an organization.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: If they don't educate and support their staff around compassion fatigue, what could happen?
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, well, thank you for asking this and I actually the way that I I guess I'll start with the way that I see policy.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: Policy for me is just a solution to an issue, right, or a problem.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: There's something happening.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: We need some solutions around how to make this work, and oftentimes I find that, in education especially, policies are written without thinking about the people who actually have to implement.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: Oh.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: Lord, right, you have something that's top down and the people at the top are thinking, oh well, let's just do this, but if you never talked to the people who will be implementing it and a lot of things when it comes to students is in the classroom, that's the teacher then it will not work.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: Right, it's like I keep thinking about, like not about me, without me.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: If we want to think about how we are going to create systems of care where people are thriving and supported, let's talk with our educators about what they need, what supports that they need.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: That might be helpful.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: So you couple that conversation, that information, with things that you know because you're a leader and you've studied and connected with experts and all of that.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: Then you start to get a policy that's more compassionate and inclusive of the people who are actually going to be doing the work.
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: In the absence of that, I think a lot of times you get things that fail.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: When you said it's not about me without me, it links so beautifully to a part of what we've been advocating for, which is that in your change management or in your socialization of human-centered policies, you are seeking and integrating feedback from those most impacted, whether it be your staff or folks that are out in the field or those you're serving From a business perspective, if I am thinking about wanting this thing to be done and implemented, if you don't create it with them, then it won't get implemented, because you're not the one, as a leader, is actually doing the work.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: It's the people on the ground who have to do the work.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: So if you want them to do it, why wouldn't you create it in such a way that takes their feedback into account and listens and supports and uplifts that expertise in the creation of it?
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: That makes much more sense to me.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: You know what it's giving.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: Basic but also sophisticated, like what you're suggesting is just to me like what we have to do to make sure that the time, effort and resources we're investing in policies and practices, in operationalizing organizational culture, practices that we are teeing people up for success, and you know that we are mitigating the potential burnout or compassion fatigue that can occur as a result of the work.
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: So this is our responsibility as leaders.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: It's our responsibility.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: It makes me feel like maybe we need to edit our little policy recommendation to do a final scan for compassion, fatigue or burnout risk because I've got two schools of thought.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: One will talk about the professional quality of life skill, that it's free tool that you can use, that can help like just it's not a diagnostic tool, right.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: This is not medical in that respect, but it does kind of point us in the right direction to see, well, how is my staff doing or how am I doing, right, if you're a teacher, you can take it and, depending on your scores and where you range, it offers insight and suggestions right on what you might do to address it.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: So that's one thing people could use.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: The other thing I will say is that, from a policy perspective, I would say and if I had my dream, I'd love to see something called EMTSS which is like an educator focused, multi-tiered system of support when, like when we think about supports that we're offering to our students, right, we separate them in tiers, right, and tier one is like universal support Everybody gets these basic things because that's what all kids need and that's the support they're getting.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: Basic things, because that's what all kids need and that's the supports they're getting.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: And then, as we escalate tiers, right, we go to tier two.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: You get a little bit more targeted support and intervention because of what you're experiencing at that tier, and then similarly with tier three, when I think about it, for teachers or educators.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: Tier one are what are the universal supports, basic supports that all of our teachers are going to get, as they are educators are going to get because they were part of the system.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: So I might think mental health first aid training we all have to take CPR, but I don't ever remember being asked to do mental health first aid training and at this day and age, we need it.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: It should just be basic right.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: We need it.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: It should just be basic right.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: Tier two might be working with for teachers who might, or educators who might be working in systems that have more higher poverty students, for example, or kids who might be experiencing trauma.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: So what would we do there, like, what additional supports might we give teachers at?
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: You know a school that has 98% of its students who are qualified for free or reduced price lunch or more multilingual learners.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: What additional supports might they need?
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: And then for tier three, that would be the schools that are in crisis.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: What are the teachers in Pasadena going to get right?
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: Or Altadena going to get after going through those fires?
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: All those students are going to come back and they're traumatized and the teachers are traumatized too.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: How are we responding to our educators who are at that system?
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: We need another level.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: Or what about suicide clusters?
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: That was actually one of the biggest things that came up in the research was like when a student would commit suicide.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: One particular teacher was so bothered by that but she couldn't quite articulate it the way she said it was.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: Nobody said anything.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: There was no support around how we deal with this as teachers.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: And then the next week there was another kid in a seat.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: So what supports would they do?
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: With MTSS, it is just an organizing system.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: It's a way for everybody to come together, have a conversation and map out what supports do I have for all of my kids at tier one, tier two and tier three?
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: If we have this same conversation and the same type of map for educators, then we can start to see in our system well, what do we have that's universal?
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: What are we getting that all people should have?
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: Do we have information around compassion fatigue?
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: Is that built in?
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: No, we're missing it.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: Now we can go and address it right.
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: So it kind of sets up this space for us to see what we have to see what's missing and then we can create action plans and steps and go and actually create the things that we see are needed.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: I love this and you know what?
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: It's probably why you are rocking with the teaching.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: Well, because what we say is we are adult MTSS.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: And to me, what really resonates whether you're in the social sector or education or you're a nurse right, if you're in a service role where this occupational hazard is present, I love this idea of a tiered approach that a human-centered leader might think about.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: Everyone on my staff needs stress management resources to be able to navigate the everyday stressors of life, and I'm going to invest in that and make sure that there's annual professional development on it, that there's coaching on it.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: Right, that my supervisory team and managers are aware of how stress can manifest in communication and behavior in the body.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: Right, that's a tier one.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: Tier two might be you know that we actually have resources that are clearly advertised and folks know where to locate them on compassion fatigue, because there are going to be some folks disproportionately impacted by the work.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: And tier three might be oh, we know, as an org and our supervisors are trained in recognizing burnout or a mental health condition that is severely impacting an employee and what are we going to do about it?
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: What are the benefits we offer?
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: And I want to be clear that an organization cannot capture all of the mental health need of its employees.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: Nor is that our expectation.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: But the lack of resources, approach, organizational systems and offerings is quite concerning.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: At this day and age, with the state of global mental health and the amount of free information and resources available, we're not going to be able to capture all of the mental.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: Every single employer should be centering emotional and mental well-being for the folks they hire.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: For anybody looking for work, those are the types of questions you might ask.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: To what extent do you talk about stress management, compassion, fatigue and burnout with your staff?
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: What resources might be available?
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: What type of benefits are here to wrap around?
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: So this is rich, and I want, in a moment, for us to transition towards talking a little bit further about.
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: You know what's coming, what's next?
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: So what?
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: How do we freedom, dream into a new possibility?
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: But before we do that, I want to invite us towards an additional somatic practice, just to give us a little break.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: This is some juicy, but also some heavy topics.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: Juicy, but also some heavy topics.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: To do this, I'm going to welcome us all towards a compassion sit.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: So again, if it feels good to get comfortable in your seat, or if you're standing, to root your feet into the ground it's accessible to close your eyes, lower your gaze, or if you're driving, gaze off towards the horizon, beginning again with three deep breaths Good, just like that, really centering this concept as you steady your breath towards a regular cadence of self-compassion.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: Is there anything in your mind, in your body or your spirit that is making you feel guilty, ashamed or in any way like you are dropping the ball or letting folks down?
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: In this moment, I'm inviting us towards a sense of greater self-compassion, a sense of greater self-compassion.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: You might internally narrate a couple of the things you've done really well or the places that you've shown up as a steady force of goodness for the people around you.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: You might also remind yourself in this moment of a couple of realities that are completely out of your control.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: I can't control the politics or the finances of my org.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: I can't wave a wand and have a fully enrolled school.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: I can't meet every need of every person around me.
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: It's not possible.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: I'm laying that down and if it feels hard to lay it down, you can envision me standing in front of you with my hands out.
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: I need to take that from you, friend.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: I'll hold it and stand in solidarity, just imagining that you're calling in kind of a flood of self-compassion Again, that you're doing the best that you can with what you know and can do and there's more life ahead for you to get into good trouble.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: So breathing in again deeply With that exhale, allowing some of that self-doubt or judgment to seep out of your pores, and we'll be adjusting back into the session.
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: So, dr J, as we progress towards our downward descent, let's imagine what's possible when we center wellbeing and collective care and I also think about like we need some good news.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: So are there any hopeful models or practices that you've seen for either preventing or healing compassion fatigue in the workplace and whether it's in schools or in other fields?
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: Have you seen success stories of folks really showing up in meaningful ways?
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: One thing that you and I did before we even started this conversation was we just checked in.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: We just kind of sucked and like talked real talk, dropped.
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: You know, let's do X, y and Z.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: We're just being able to like connect on a human level.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: I think that's one of the things that you know people need to remember that this type of work is.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: It's human centered, right, it's they're human first.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: So how are we checking in with our staff?
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: Are we doing that in ways that are authentic?
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: Are we offering care or kindness or words or speaking in ways that say I see you right.
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: If that's not something that you're doing with your staff, I think that's an approach you can switch up now and like really being present, and maybe you need to speak about doing it in ways that are, you know, more authentic to who you are, but trying to do that more authentic to who you are, but trying to do that.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: This is going to sound since we're dreaming.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: I'm also going to share one other thing.
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: Do you know the book the Five Love Languages, mm-hmm.
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: Right Now, most people talk about that for relationships, right, their private, intimate or familial relationships.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: But when you do that in a work setting and I do think they have it for business settings.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: But when you do that in a work setting and I do think they have it for business settings what you're doing is you're learning how to show appreciation, show care and show up for people in a way that works for them.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: I think that's actually something that all educators, or all leaders, should invest in when they're working with their teachers.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: Maybe it's a teacher who never eats lunch because they're always with their kids.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: They're always, and they do that by choice, but they're not taking care of themselves, so you can bring them lunch right.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: Maybe you might have a teacher who would like to check in with you, but do you need to sit in the in the uh in your office to do that?
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: Can you take a walk?
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: I would say groups or people who are doing positive ways of like checking in and supporting teachers?
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: I would probably throw that question back to you, because I think that the teaching world does a really good job of doing those types of things.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: So what might you say?
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that structure is.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: We talk about walk and talks as like a really underutilized way of pro-social habit bundling.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: So involving movement, exercise, fresh air, vitamin D, seeing the green and blue and all of the research that shows what that does in a time when many of us suffer from nature deficit disorder, but also getting the social connection, the opportunity to speak to and address some sort of what are the topics that are here?
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: I think that I can't underscore enough that we have some of the most check-in rich cultures in education and the social sector.
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: We love a good check-in and I agree with you, I really agree with you that that is an important approach.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: My challenge with it is how often we waste the opportunity by doing something really I don't know cliche, or if you would be an ice cream flavor, which would you be and why?
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, meaningful, real conversations.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: And, yes, check out our concept of professional authenticity, because there is such a thing as asking a question that you are not prepared for the response.
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: But I think there's a middle space with check-ins where it's not fluffy and like a waste of time, frankly.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: Space with check-ins where it's not fluffy and like a waste of time, frankly, but it's also not so heavy that you're unable to transition out of a really deep share into the work.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: And so I would just encourage human-centered leaders to maybe take a look at the last five meetings you've facilitated, you planned, and look at your check-in questions and interrogate the degree to which you created conditions for folks to share what they're experiencing, what they're going through, what are celebrations.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: You know what support they might need, what's something that has stayed on their heart and a way that they're planning to practice self-care to get out of it right.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: So there's really diversifying those questions.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: I think would be a really targeted intervention for a lot of leaders in this moment.
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: Well, dr J, I wonder what's giving you hope right now?
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: We love to close our sessions with critical hope.
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: I wonder what's giving you hope in this moment, in this year, at this time of being a human in existence?
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: I will say this One of the reasons why I really like the work that I get to do at UC Berkeley, the Center for Research on Expanding Educational Opportunity, or CREO, is because our research focus is on historically resilient and marginalized educators students right, populations right and we're looking at things that will ensure that these groups have the best education possible, and that includes looking at and conducting research on spaces where people are doing amazing work, like teaching those a lot of them, but there's also like work that is, you know, increasing is increasing their quality with our national board work.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: And then there's looking at the conditions in which the kids, the school site conditions in which kids are being taught in, with our reducing or reach network, which is called Racial Education and Community Healing Network, and it's looking at how you reduce exclusionary discipline, expulsion, suspensions, and what you can do as a community in your school to tackle that.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: And then we're developing a black studies curriculum for the state of California, and that was a California Reparations Task Force recommendation.
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: And why that gives me hope is that I get to wake up every day and do something that I know is gonna make a difference in the lives of all students, and that has always been my center, like as an educator.
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: If it's in the best interest of students, then I know that I'm doing good work.
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: Having healthy, thriving teachers is not only good for teachers, but it's really good for our kids.
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: Having students get a curriculum where they can see themselves reflected and tap into their historical legacy of greatness, it's important, right, it's important work.
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: That's a model for Black Studies.
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: It can then become a model for other groups and other studies.
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: It's just there's so much possibility and I wake up feeling incredibly blessed and happy every day because I get to do those things.
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: I was about to flip this table just listening to you share.
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: You have a testimony.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: I love to talk to folks that are passionate about what they do, that they still have that spark and that North Star and that they've landed in a role that aligns truly with their most central values and inspirations.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: I also just want to double click on the epic reframe.
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: You just did right.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: These aren't historically marginalized communities though we can still use that term but they're historically resilient communities.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: Come on.
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: I love some resilience More of that.
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: So, friends, I'm going to wrap us down here with some affirmations that are linked to compassion fatigue, that are linked to your workplace wellbeing and all you deserve.
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: In case that's something that you're interested in, here we go.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: My worth is not measured by my output.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: My worth is not measured by my output.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: I lead with compassion and I extend that same compassion to myself.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: I release the need to carry everything alone.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: I am allowed to need what I give so freely to others.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: Healing is not a destination.
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: It's a practice, and I'm practicing.
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: So I think the homework that I've assigned I already dropped during this episode, which is Dr J recommended that we have transparent, easily accessible resources and information connected to compassion fatigue inside of our companies, inside of our teams, our schools and our nonprofits, and so I'm asking you all to talk to HR, talk to your leadership team, discuss where is the next natural opportunity for you to socialize this concept of compassion fatigue with your employees and with your colleagues.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: And my other invitation for the human-centered leader is for you to take a look at the power of your check-ins and for you to craft some additional human-centered meeting openers whether it be supervision or whole staff that allow people to feel even 1% more seen by each other and within their own self-view.
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: So we are so, so grateful to have had you here, dr J.
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: I wonder how listeners can follow your work.
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, you can follow me on LinkedIn, and I have a website that you can look up as well.
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: It's drj'sblogcom.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: I'll send it to you so you make sure you have the right one.
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: I have a.
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: TEDx talk, where I talk about this compassion fatigue.
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: I would recommend sharing that with people.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: It's a great conversation starter.
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: It's a great way to do training on this topic and what that means and what that means for your team.
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: And then, if you were interested in a lot of the things that I was sharing today, emtss recommendations for teachers what it might look like.
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: Buy the book, use it as a book, study because it's written in a way that people can study it together.
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: I think it would be a great way.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: And it's not because I wrote it, although I'm happy and proud of that.
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: I actually wrote it because my dream would be for people to learn and become aware about this and talk more about it.
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: So read it and pass it on.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: Share it, dope it and pass it on, share it, dope.
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for joining us and thank you for bringing your wisdom, your research and your expertise around compassion fatigue.
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: May we all get well and get wise with this workplace hazard.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: All right, y'all, have a beautiful afternoon.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: I hope that, wherever you are, you get to see a peak of sun and if you don't get you a happy light, we'll see you at the next episode of gather at the well.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: All right, y'all.
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: Thanks for coming to play at gather at the well, the podcast that teaches.
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: If you like this conversation, come visit us online at the teaching wellorg and hit us up on our socials.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: Remember to visit the podcast page to download a couple of useful tools to get your life and heal up your work.