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123. Freedom In The Church - Worship with Bob Kauflin · 4-Freedom Podcast

0:04
Welcome to the For Freedom podcast.
0:10
I found my freedom of you. I found a joy I can't lose.
0:19
And thank God it's true. You wrapped your arms around me
0:24
and heaven broke through. From the moment she found me, I
0:29
found my freedom. In This podcast exists to bring
0:35
the freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with
0:38
everyday issues. Now here are your hosts James
0:42
Seyfried and Brett Marvin. Welcome back to the For Freedom
0:48
podcast. It is so glad to have you this
0:50
week and we are in our In the Church series.
0:55
Before we get started with that, we have been continuing to just
1:01
look forward to what God has for us in the podcast.
1:03
Thankful for the the content that you guys have, the feedback
1:07
that you guys have given us on our recent content and so
1:11
thankful for your listening ears.
1:14
We understand that we couldn't do what we'd do without you
1:17
listening. And so we're thankful that you
1:20
are one of our faithful listeners and that you tune in
1:23
every week as we release episodes.
1:26
And we're just thankful to have some mics in front of us and
1:30
people to listen to us. And we're mindful of your time.
1:33
We've been doing some longer format podcast lately, closer to
1:37
about an hour. We feel like the content we're
1:39
putting out is is is worthy of that and we we've done back and
1:44
forth. Me and John went for a while
1:45
there where we'd go less and we'd go 30 minutes or we do the
1:49
part one Part 2. But we feel like right now we've
1:51
got so much content we're just going to put it out in longer
1:54
form podcast and do about an hour or so.
1:57
So we hope you've enjoyed that. Please give us feedback on our
2:00
social medias or leave a comment or rating or review all those
2:05
things. Help us out and to get our
2:07
podcast out. And if you are one of those ones
2:10
like me and like Brett have been, who have struggled in
2:13
legalism and struggled in these areas, share these podcasts.
2:17
Share it with someone that you know so they can be encouraged.
2:20
And we we know that there is the mindset that we feel like we're
2:24
on an island when we come out of legalism, when we come out of
2:28
these areas of of strongholds in our life.
2:30
And so by you sharing this podcast with someone, they can
2:34
be helped in ways that you would never even understand.
2:37
Brett, I don't know about you, but.
2:39
But when I realized there was a community of believers that were
2:42
going through the same thing I was going through, it was like a
2:45
breath of fresh air where I could go and I could talk to
2:48
someone and say, hey, I'm struggling with this and they've
2:50
had a listening the year. And so that's what we want to
2:52
be. We want to be a ear, We want to
2:54
be a help. And we hope we've helped in many
2:57
ways even in your life. Brett, what's your how?
3:00
How are things going in your area, man?
3:03
Man, things are going good here. Excited to just be in the
3:07
ministry and living life. And I don't wanna just build
3:10
upon what you said. Listen, we hear everything that
3:15
you say. We want to interact with our
3:18
listeners. We want you to not only likes,
3:22
subscribe, share our podcast on your social media, but comment.
3:27
Tell us what you think. Give us feedback.
3:30
We've made recent, recent changes to the podcast.
3:33
Due to feedback that we've gotten from our listeners, we've
3:37
added subjects to, you know, who are, you know, episodes that
3:43
we're going to do in the future because of feedback from our
3:47
listeners. And listen, we listen to you.
3:50
We don't ignore your comments and your thoughts, your instant
3:54
messages, your Facebook posts. We want to interact with you.
3:59
And so just, you know, we, we hear you, we're listening, We're
4:03
here, and I'm excited about an interview that we've got today.
4:08
Yeah, yeah, Brett, this is, it's going to be a fantastic
4:12
interview before we introduce that interview and give a little
4:15
bit of feedback from that, a little bit of content from that.
4:18
We've got some things coming up. We weren't keep mentioning this.
4:21
We've got our meet up coming up in Georgia at Catoosa at at J CS
4:25
Church in November. It'll be here before you know
4:28
it. We're in almost March now we're
4:31
we're one day away from March and so March is right here.
4:35
We're already into the third month, and we are rolling toward
4:39
that. We can't wait to be there.
4:40
We can't wait to meet and be around our family, be around our
4:44
our, our our brothers and sisters in Christ, part of the
4:46
RFP family. And so we hope you'll be there.
4:49
We hope you'll make plans for that, Brett.
4:52
And then Indianapolis. We've got Indianapolis coming
4:55
up. We're going to the National
4:57
Southern Baptist Convention and then I'm going to I hope.
5:01
I hope you've got your copy of the House Church Manual ready.
5:05
Wait. I'm gonna have this one we.
5:06
Have to We have to go pay homage.
5:09
I can't remember the name of it, but there's a burrito shop up
5:12
there that's like huge burritos right near House Anderson that
5:17
that really have some real good burritos.
5:21
But yeah, we'll take you up there and show you the Holy
5:23
Land. I'm but.
5:25
I'm gonna fast until now. Until then, just so I can enjoy
5:28
a couple of those. Yes, yes, absolutely.
5:31
Fast in the honor of Jack House. And then, but we are, we are
5:36
seriously, we are going to be in in Indianapolis, We're going to
5:39
do an episode from the National Convention of Southern Baptist,
5:43
and that's going to be an excellent episode.
5:47
And there's a chance we might hear from the wives.
5:50
Yes, I was about to mention that too.
5:52
Yeah. I didn't know if we talked about
5:54
it. I know your wife had mentioned
5:55
it. My wife's real nervous.
5:57
She said she didn't think she did well at all the last time we
5:59
did a wives episode. But I'm like, dude, we're going
6:02
to be together. We're going to be in the same
6:03
house. We got to, we got to do
6:05
something. So look forward to that.
6:07
I can't wait to get together with Emily again and Brett and
6:11
I'll be able to share that week together.
6:14
And then in one year from from just two weeks from when we
6:18
released this one year away, we're going to be back in
6:21
Israel. Just had my Israel interest
6:23
meeting at our church and excited about those who signed
6:26
up and are looking forward to go with us.
6:29
We want you to go after this episode drops, we'll be having
6:34
our our link go live on our website for freedompodcast.com.
6:39
I want you to go there and check out the information, check out
6:41
what we've got going on and we'd love for you to link up with
6:45
this and go to Israel with for freedom and experience the Holy
6:49
Land with us. A trip that'll change your life,
6:52
and a trip that will change the way you read the Bible.
6:56
Amen. Brett, anything else forward to
6:58
it? I think that's think we've
7:00
covered all our bases. All right, so we're we're coming
7:03
up on an interview here with a guy named Bob Coughlin.
7:06
He wrote a book called Worship Matters, and we're going to link
7:09
that in our show notes. But this was one of those
7:11
interviews. I was talking with John and
7:13
talking with Brett and talking to a couple of friends of mine
7:16
and I said, you know, I'm going to do something that I haven't,
7:18
I've never done. I'm just going to send an an
7:20
e-mail. I couldn't find his e-mail, so I
7:22
said I had direct messaged him on Facebook.
7:24
We weren't friends. And I sent Bob an e-mail or an
7:28
instant message to DM and I said, hey Bob, you don't know
7:31
me. I'm from a fundamentals
7:33
background love to do an interview with you on worship
7:36
and what worship means and worship called worship matters.
7:40
Why does worship matter And I told Brett I said I don't think
7:44
we're going to get an e-mail back and he's a he's a pretty
7:47
big pastor big in the in music. He writes music he sings music.
7:51
I said we're probably not going to interview back so be having a
7:54
couple of guys on your back back burner of what we can do
7:57
interview and would you know it. Like the next day he messaged me
8:01
back, we got emails. I started emailing the
8:04
secretary. We lined him up for an interview
8:06
and so if you're familiar with Sovereign Grace Music Bob
8:09
Coughlin, this is the interview that we have lined up and I'm so
8:13
excited for you to hear it today.
8:16
Welcome to the show today. We are so excited to have an
8:20
interview today with Mr. Bob Coughlin.
8:22
Some of you may may or may not be familiar with Mr. Bob, But he
8:26
is a he is the President of Sovereign Grace.
8:30
Music and director, Director by the name President.
8:35
Come on, director. All right, Director.
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He's written hundreds and hundreds of songs and it's just
8:42
a. Bad and unknown.
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And he has been all over just the music world for many years.
8:51
He wrote a book called Worship Matters.
8:54
And worship does matter in our life.
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And so, Bob, welcome to the show.
8:58
Thank you for coming. Just sort of give us par and
9:02
give us just sort of a talk about that.
9:06
Well, what? Tell me specifically what you
9:09
want me to focus on. Yeah, your So what's your your
9:12
life in ministry and your desire for music.
9:15
So how did how did your life begin in ministry?
9:19
And then what is your ultimate desire for ministry?
9:23
Well, it is. OK.
9:26
How'd it begin? Yeah, I was in a Christian band
9:28
years ago. I became a Christian in 1972
9:32
through a guy in college, shared the gospel with me from crew
9:37
Campus Crusade as a as a freshman in college.
9:41
And then when I graduated from college as part of a Christian
9:44
band called GLAAD, we toured the country for eight years.
9:48
And I had always, I've always been involved in music in some
9:52
way, major in piano. And then I developed a real
9:57
passion for the local church through teaching I was receiving
10:01
and just to reading my Bible, wanted to give myself to seeing
10:04
people evangelize, saved disciples, and deployed in the
10:09
ministry of the gospel, fulfilling the purpose God had
10:13
created them for. So I left the band and became a
10:17
part of church, which is a family of churches.
10:21
Denomination is not called Sovereign Grace churches.
10:23
That was in 1984 and I became pastor in 85 and I've been, you
10:29
know, doing music in the church since the mid 70s, I guess full
10:34
time since 85 and 97. I took on this current role as
10:40
director of Sovereign Grace Music somewhat.
10:43
I mean, it was, it was kind of an evolutionary process, but I
10:47
definitely oversee it now, I'm sure of that.
10:50
And so for the last 27 years about I've been, you know,
10:55
working at well, our mission statement is to produce Christ's
10:59
exulting songs and training for the church from our local
11:02
churches. So that involves producing
11:04
albums, training songwriters, training leaders, training
11:07
pastors, putting on conferences. Do a worship matter is
11:11
intensive. I sometimes write A blog.
11:14
I have a podcast. And so the the why do I do all
11:18
this? I think it's what Paul said in
11:20
Philippians. One is my eager expectation and
11:23
hope that I will not be at all ashamed that now with full
11:26
courage, Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or
11:28
by death. That's why I do it.
11:32
You know, I'm a pastor. I I don't do music.
11:35
I love music, but I was just having a conversation with the
11:39
college intern last night. I have a group of interns over
11:41
on Thursday night and they said, you know, what music do you
11:45
listen to? I said, well, I don't listen to
11:46
master music. I mean, I love music, but I love
11:50
Jesus more. Music is great, Jesus is
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greater. And I I see music as a wonderful
11:57
gift, wonderful tool to help people understand God's glory in
12:02
the face of Jesus Christ. So that that that involves a lot
12:06
of things which we'll probably get into.
12:09
But I enjoy. I enjoy using music to that end,
12:12
but I really care that people come to see how glorious Jesus
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is and how great the gospel is. I love it.
12:21
And I was. I was first introduced to you,
12:25
Bob, eight years ago at Together for the Gospel.
12:28
Oh, wow. My pastor took me there.
12:32
I would just fresh into that ministry and we went and six
12:37
years ago, I'm sorry, six years ago and we went and you're
12:41
playing the piano and you're singing and worshiping.
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And I I still listen to that album a lot because it's just
12:47
meant so much to me. But just your energy of singing
12:51
and your energy of leading, For me again, I was leading the
12:56
fundamentalist world at this moment.
12:58
And so I had only known worship one way.
13:01
And so I was a little taken back at first, but then it was like,
13:04
wow, this is, this is great. And then to top it all off, I go
13:09
home and I start researching a little bit and I find the
13:12
Sovereign Grace Music website, of course.
13:15
And I mean most if not all of the music on there is, is free.
13:19
Like you can get. Yeah.
13:21
Yeah, for the the actually key music is free.
13:23
It's all free, yeah. You can get sheet music and I'm
13:26
just like, dude, this is like a gold mine for me.
13:29
I can get free music from this place.
13:31
Like, of course it's my new favorite place to go find music
13:35
and so it's a blessing. It's been a blessing for me, so.
13:39
That is great. Yeah, it was.
13:41
It's it's funny how the Lord has used this together for the
13:43
gospel conferences and those albums we've done.
13:46
We did four, and then Matt Mercker came into the last one
13:48
and and did a fifth. But I was.
13:52
I never, I never dreamed that that would be a part of
13:55
Sovereign Grace Music, but it does.
13:58
It does kind of boil things down to the essentials, doesn't it?
14:02
It does. You know you.
14:03
You don't have a big band, you just have voices and a piano.
14:08
But what you mentioned the passion is I, I I think that is
14:13
the natural effect of of knowing understanding what God, who God
14:22
is and what He's done for us in Jesus.
14:25
You know it's it's it's it's just a natural response it's
14:28
it's funny. Those who those who are most
14:31
informed about scripture should be the most passionate.
14:36
Yeah. Amen.
14:38
You know, I just recently started reading your book
14:41
Worship Matters and. What took you so long, Brett?
14:44
Goodness gracious. Now for 16 years.
14:48
Yeah, I know. I'm.
14:49
I'm. I'm.
14:50
Just kidding you. Thanks for.
14:52
Reading. But it's a great book, great
14:55
book and you know for the first decade and a half of my
14:58
ministry, I was a worship leader.
15:00
And I I'll tell you right now, I'd rather get up and preach in
15:04
front of 1000 people than get up and lead scene in front of 100.
15:08
Because it's it's just so it's it's it's so nerve wracking for
15:12
me. But the advice you give, it's so
15:14
practical, practical it's it's relatable and you know.
15:20
I I have. Felt that that sometimes leading
15:23
worship, I've got up there before and I felt that the
15:27
worship was dry and and that it was empty and that it was
15:29
pointless. And so one of the questions that
15:32
we want to ask you is it's just this simple question, why does
15:36
worship matter? Wow.
15:39
Well, God existed his Father, Son, and Spirit before anything
15:44
existed. And you could describe the
15:48
relationships between the Father, Son, and Spirit as one
15:50
of worship, meaning, mutual enjoyment, mutual pleasure,
15:59
mutual satisfaction, mutual adoration, affection.
16:04
You know that the Father, Son and Spirit esteem one another as
16:08
the one God. And when God created a people
16:12
that he was going to redeem for himself, worship is really
16:16
inviting us into that. So it's inviting us into the
16:19
ultimate reality. And the the truth is Brett,
16:24
everybody worships and in the garden Adam and Eve worshiped
16:30
the true God until they decided. They listened to the serpent and
16:36
they decided that they could do this on their own.
16:39
They had a better idea than God. They weren't going to be
16:42
submitted to his authority. And so at that point, you know,
16:46
they were cast out of his presence and they rejected his
16:49
rule. And so God himself redeemed us
16:56
for the purpose of coming back into His presence, being in his
17:00
presence, and being under his rule.
17:03
And when we fell, we didn't stop worshipping, as Harold Best
17:08
says, our worship was just redirected.
17:10
I think Mad Papa says this as well.
17:12
It didn't end. Worship didn't end.
17:14
It just redirected. So worship is a life and death
17:19
category. You know at the end of the Bible
17:24
revelation 21, I think 22, it says his servants shall worship
17:28
him. And that's the that's the
17:31
destiny of all that that God has redeemed through Christ.
17:34
All those God has redeemed through Christ, that we will
17:36
worship him if we don't worship him.
17:40
We're we're we're taking damnation we we are we are
17:45
ejecting the the way the universe works which is God at
17:51
the at the top. God the supreme God, the
17:54
sovereign God. God the the reason for
17:57
everything. And so worship matters And you
18:01
know I use that title for my book.
18:05
It was. I'm pretty sure I got it from a
18:07
book years ago written called Money Matters and I thought that
18:10
that's a great title and you know it's it's a it's a double
18:13
meaning you know worship matters things that things about
18:16
worship. But then worship matters because
18:20
it's not only what we do when we sing it's the way we live our
18:24
lives. Which I I drew out more of my
18:27
other book, True Worshippers. But I I make reference to that
18:30
in in worship matters as well. That worship unfortunately, has
18:35
become this catch all phrase that that mostly means singing.
18:40
And it's it's biblically, it's a much broader, it's a much
18:44
broader meaning, much more full meaning that that covers what we
18:49
do, what we say, what we think our motives.
18:51
Everything about our lives is is an act of worship towards
18:55
something. So it so it really matters.
19:00
That's great and we're right. Now we're actually doing a
19:03
series called In the Church and we're addressing issues that
19:07
have been dealt with in the church, abuse, worship services,
19:12
structure, things like that. And so this one's falling into
19:15
the worship side or, you know, singing in church and and what
19:20
that looks like, what that encompasses.
19:22
And you sort of alluded to it there for a minute.
19:24
But often times we were raised in our our background, me and
19:30
Brett's background, that worship was only done a certain way.
19:36
Worship was only to be done with hymns and hymns, only a specific
19:42
group of instruments. And if you added any other
19:45
instruments or you did anything other than hymns, then you were
19:48
just liberal. You were left.
19:50
There's no way it can honor God. Like you're an abomination.
19:55
You're basically just one group. And Satan.
19:58
Like if if you add the drums or you add an electric guitar.
20:02
You've welcomed in demons into your church, devil and and you
20:07
have basically just fallen by the wayside.
20:09
So I say all that when we think of worship and we think of
20:17
styles and stylistic ways of worship, what is the proper way
20:22
of that? What's the proper way of
20:23
worship? What's the proper way?
20:25
Again, not just singing, but a whole lifestyle of it.
20:28
Yeah, what? Correction.
20:31
Well, there is a real connection between the song there should
20:35
be, between the songs we sing and and the way we live our
20:39
lives. I mean, certainly in the Old
20:42
Testament, anytime there was a revival of of corporate worship,
20:46
you know, the law was discovered and people gathered and the law
20:50
was read and it affected the life of the people.
20:55
So there's supposed to be a correspondence.
20:57
If you have, if you have good, solid, you know, gatherings
21:02
based on God's word, what God has revealed to us, then that
21:06
most likely means that you're going to seek to live lives that
21:10
way, seek to live your life that way.
21:13
However, God has left us a lot of freedom.
21:19
He, he's, He's given us specific things that are priority.
21:25
Things like, you know, our meetings are to Exalt Him and
21:31
Gatherings to exalt him, not us, That they're to be governed by
21:37
the Word of God and fueled by the Word of God.
21:40
So you know that they should be governed by the Word of God.
21:44
That's We wouldn't have any. We wouldn't know what to do if
21:47
God's word didn't tell us. And then they're meant to be
21:50
fueled by the Word of God. The gospel is meant to be
21:53
central God's supreme act of deliverance.
21:56
You know in the Old Testament it was the deliverance from Egypt
21:59
through the Red Sea and then the Babylonian exile and now it's
22:03
deliverance from sin and death in hell, in the grave through
22:05
the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.
22:08
And that's what we celebrate when we gather together.
22:10
So things like that are are central and and meant to be
22:15
priority. But I when you ask that
22:18
question, I thought of Jesus's words in Matthew 15, where he
22:22
says and verse seven, you hypocrites welded.
22:25
Isaiah prophesied you when he said this.
22:28
People honors me with their lips, but their heart is far
22:32
from me. So that's a, you know that
22:37
that's one sign that it's not just about the externals, you
22:41
can do the right things. And Israel did this.
22:44
They offered sacrifices that God didn't accept because both their
22:48
hearts and their lives weren't weren't submitted to God.
22:51
But then he goes on to these say this verse nine.
22:54
In vain do they worship me teaching as doctrines the
22:58
commandments of men. And it's, it's a tendency, I
23:02
think, for all of us to assign scriptural weight to things that
23:08
are more preferential or inferred, perhaps to assign, to
23:16
assign, you know, biblical authority to our traditions.
23:22
And that's a dangerous thing to do.
23:26
It doesn't mean that there aren't ways of doing things that
23:29
are better than others. So you know, I think having a,
23:34
you know, screaming guitars, electric guitars at the front of
23:39
your gathering is not a good and helpful way to get your
23:44
congregation to sing. However, does that mean you
23:47
can't use the guitar in a responsible Christ exalting
23:51
congregationally serving way? Well, no that that doesn't mean
23:54
that. And So what what we tend to do
23:58
is create categories, create rules that help us simplify our
24:03
relationship with God. And God has given those us those
24:07
rules. It is word.
24:09
And when we start to add to them, we create all kinds of
24:13
problems. So, you know, we we hear about
24:18
the worship wars, which you know that there it's a really a
24:23
misnomer. You're not.
24:25
We're not arguing about who to worship.
24:28
We're we're arguing about how to sing.
24:31
We're arguing about how to make music.
24:32
And that in itself shows that we don't understand the gift, that
24:39
worship and song is that that we don't come with anything to
24:43
offer. We come as needy, you know,
24:47
sinners saved by grace to receive all that God has given
24:51
us. And in that moment when we're
24:54
singing, you know, the the main point is to to get people
24:59
singing from their hearts with, you know, reflecting the glory
25:02
of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
25:05
And so they're just a number of ways to do that.
25:08
And to insist that it has to be, you know, the way we've always
25:13
done it or, you know, to to pull something from scripture that's
25:17
really not there is to teach as doctrines the commandments of
25:23
men. And and Jesus, God's against
25:28
that. He he's going to make it feel
25:33
odd in people's hearts. And they'll just, they'll either
25:37
be people who are very discouraged or very proud, you
25:40
know, because we've got it right, We've got it right.
25:44
You know, the only way we've gotten our worship right is to
25:46
know that it's given through Jesus.
25:48
That's that's when it's right. You know, he's the one who
25:52
perfects all our offerings. He's the one who makes our
25:55
sacrifices of worship acceptable.
25:58
Peter says first Peter 25. So to to reduce it to, you know,
26:03
you got to do certain number of hymns, certain, you know,
26:07
instrumentation. There are all kinds of examples
26:11
in scripture of ways that we can sing to God.
26:17
When you look at the Psalms, you got Psalm 117, two verses and
26:23
then you got Psalm one 19176 verses and you just think, OK,
26:30
that's a lot of difference and everything in between and then
26:35
different kinds of instrumentation.
26:37
And so there's there's there's a complex, there's simple songs,
26:44
there's there's planned spontaneous planned songs,
26:49
spontaneous songs, there's individual songs, group songs.
26:53
I mean it's just all kinds of songs.
26:56
And so there is no one style instrumentation genre that will
27:05
fully or adequately capture two things.
27:08
One, all the things that God is and two, all the appropriate
27:16
ways that we should respond to Him.
27:19
So I found it helpful, as I've gotten older to really focus
27:24
just on the sound of the congregation and what we can do
27:27
to serve that. Amen.
27:30
I mean, yeah, we definitely were raised with that Preference
27:34
driven theology, preference driven music.
27:38
My past, you know, singing hymns that had to be 100 and 5200
27:43
years old or we couldn't see them sing them, only use the
27:48
piano. My pastor used to say you can't,
27:50
you know, anything that was contemporary was Christian rock.
27:53
And my pastor used to say, you know, you can't have Christian
27:57
rock any more than you have Christian fornication and just
28:00
that kind of stuff just pushing preferences.
28:03
And for me today, right now, it it's about the words, it's about
28:07
the message, what does it say about God?
28:10
How does it help our relationship with God?
28:12
And so this next subject that I want to go into.
28:16
Can I comment on that before you move?
28:18
Ahead please do. Yeah, I I think we want to avoid
28:23
going too far in our response to that.
28:26
I think music does matter. We're we're affectional
28:30
creatures. We are moved by music, music and
28:34
every culture moves us. There are cultural associations
28:38
that we can make with music. There are historical
28:41
associations we can make with music.
28:44
There are musical principles that you know in each culture
28:48
that that can affect people. So I think we need to have
28:53
wisdom in the musical choices we make.
28:57
So it's to guard against the people who says, yeah, you can
28:59
use any kind of music in the church.
29:02
Yeah, I don't think so. I I mean, unless you, like Paul
29:05
say, yeah, anything's potential, but not all things are helpful.
29:09
And I think that's a better way to approach it.
29:12
Just so I don't wouldn't want a listener to misunderstand that.
29:15
OK, Yeah. Just the words matter.
29:17
You can use whatever music you want.
29:19
No, I think there are some kinds of music, some instrumentations
29:23
of music, some arrangements of music that that really do
29:27
support congregational singing. And then there are other kinds
29:32
that that fight against it. And that's that's a wisdom
29:37
issue. I was going to say in Colossians
29:38
316, where it says you'll let the word of Christ dwell in you
29:41
richly teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom,
29:45
singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs with
29:47
thankfulness in your hearts to God.
29:49
I just think it's interesting that that's we're teaching and
29:52
admonishing one in all wisdom. It takes wisdom to discern, OK,
29:56
what kind of music is really going to support the singing of
29:59
this congregation. And that's that's a local church
30:02
issue. You know, if you're coming out
30:04
of a fundamentalist background, just don't bring a drum kit and
30:07
electric guitar like one Sunday and go, OK, here we are.
30:11
You know, there's something very beautiful about a church singing
30:15
hymns, but you're cutting yourself off.
30:18
Sorry. I said absolutely, I agree with
30:21
you. Yeah, I love you.
30:23
You're cutting yourself off from from spirit inspired songs that
30:29
have that have come to us in the last you know ten 20-30 years
30:33
that are really means of grace intended to build up and
30:37
strengthen the church. So it's just a matter of, and I
30:42
think it's interesting if you if you go back to like the sixteen
30:45
1700s, much of the church only sang the Psalter.
30:51
It was guys like Isaac Watts particularly who who incur
30:56
introduced to the church the singing of hymns, hymns of human
31:00
composure that was radical in their day.
31:04
But if he had not been radical, we would be singing hymns today.
31:09
So we have to put things in historical perspective and
31:12
realize that, you know, some of the changes in the music of the
31:15
church are really helping, helping the church grow and
31:19
helping people know Christ better and and know the word
31:23
better. And if we insist, though it has
31:26
to be the way it was, you know, 200 years ago, well, then then
31:29
we're ignoring how we even got those hymns 200 years ago.
31:35
Absolutely. Yeah.
31:38
And I want, I want to add one more thing to that because I
31:40
think you pulled out a great point about 10 years ago.
31:43
I was an associate pastor in Idaho and there was a larger
31:47
church there and some other churches on Easter Sunday that
31:51
we're using not even, not even Christian songs, but worldly,
31:57
you know, Highway to Hell as opening up for Easter service.
32:01
And I'm thinking, you know, even then, it's just ten years ago.
32:05
I'm thinking OK, that doesn't have any place in church, Like
32:10
doesn't talk about Jesus is not talking of glorifying God in any
32:13
way, shape or form. Yeah, it talks about hell, but
32:16
like this is this is not right. I think that's the the pit we we
32:21
had Jim Newhiser on a couple weeks ago and we talked about
32:24
the pendulum swing of abuse and often times that pendulum swing
32:29
in worship as well is well, I was told to do this and so
32:33
that's I'm against that. So let's go all the way to the
32:36
other side and let's pull in worldly stuff that has nothing
32:39
to do with Jesus unless. And so it's trying to find that
32:43
balance in between there and everything we do.
32:45
Yeah, and I'd say that balance is found by aiming to please the
32:49
Lord, Biblically speaking, it's not.
32:52
Freedom is not doing whatever we want to do.
32:55
Freedom is, is being able to serve the Lord, to please the
32:59
Lord in a way that builds up his body to build, builds up his
33:03
church and serves as a as a a light for those who you know
33:08
don't know the Lord. But that's very different from
33:10
pursuing that as the main goal. You know, you do highway to hell
33:14
as your opening number for a service.
33:16
You know, you're saying we we want to connect with the
33:19
unbelievers. Well, that's not why the Church
33:21
gathers, The church gathers to bear witness to what God has
33:25
done for us in Christ and to receive all that He's, He's,
33:29
He's given us. And that's just very different
33:32
aim. I tell you, I have been into in
33:36
some church worship services and many churches, even some worship
33:40
services and churches that I pastored, where, you know, it's
33:44
just so dry. It's just like there's nothing
33:48
there. It feels like people feel like
33:51
the Baptist police are in the back of the church and they're
33:53
going to come arrest them if they raise their hand.
33:56
And one of my pet peeves leading singing was people not singing.
34:02
You know, why would you come to church and not sing?
34:06
You know, you're, you're there, you know, as a priest and one of
34:09
your jobs is a sacrifice of praise.
34:12
You know that. So you know, there's church
34:15
services, worship services that are dry sometimes on our
34:18
churches today. How can we avoid the dryness of
34:21
worship? Well, there's a lot of reasons
34:28
that, you know, a service might be drying.
34:32
So I'm going to try and dress them, you know, different ones.
34:35
It it it might be that, OK, let's let's assume that the
34:40
songs are great and yeah, the songs are great and maybe the
34:48
scriptures being read are great. It it could be just the example
34:51
of the person who's leading them.
34:54
There is good leadership and there's bad leadership.
34:59
Part of good leadership is being affected yourself by what you're
35:03
singing or what you're asking people to sing.
35:06
I see that in a lot of churches there's there's no particular
35:10
church has the corner on the market for this.
35:12
You know, we just go through the motions.
35:16
So when you have someone up front going through the motions
35:21
of what you're doing, that's going to have an effect.
35:26
Now to counteract that, talk about the pendulum swing.
35:30
You know, some people try to be the cheerleader.
35:32
They get up at the front and you know.
35:33
We could. Let's do this.
35:35
And and they're not seeking to motivate with truth so much as
35:38
their excitement and their passion and and that's not going
35:42
to work because you're not feeding people.
35:45
You're jumping ahead of them and you're saying be be as excited
35:48
as I am. And that's not what we're meant
35:52
to motivate people with. We are meant to motivate people
35:55
with the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
35:59
I love the 2nd Corinthians 318 which is not about a meeting per
36:03
SE, but it does has have relevance to that.
36:07
It says, you know, we all with unveiled face beholding the
36:11
glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image
36:15
from 1° of glory to another. This comes from the Lord who is
36:18
the Spirit. We are trying to help people see
36:21
the glory of the Lord. So that could be another reason
36:26
that it's dry. You're not, you're not giving
36:29
people the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ as as God
36:35
shown it to us in His word. Maybe you are using good songs,
36:38
good scriptures, but you're not helping people understand them.
36:42
So a lot of churches, they they'll have a song, then a
36:44
prayer and a scripture and and no one's telling people why
36:47
you're doing things a certain way.
36:50
So people just, you know, kind of, I'm not really into it.
36:54
So you're not making theological connections for people.
36:57
That's another reason why things could seem dry.
37:00
Another reason might be that people are unconverted.
37:03
You know, people in our churches, they come, they, their
37:07
eyes have been opened to their sin and the provision that God's
37:10
made for us and the substitutionary sacrifice of
37:12
Jesus and the fact that he's risen from the dead.
37:15
So there nothing effects them. Yeah, so those those are some of
37:21
the reasons it's hard to imagine.
37:24
You know, Peter says that we are, though we don't see Jesus,
37:28
we love him and rejoice with a joy that is inexpressible and
37:32
full of glory. And our churches should resemble
37:37
that. They they should reflect that
37:40
you have the psalmist in Psalm One O 8 saying, my heart is
37:42
steadfast. O God, I will sing and make
37:45
melody with all my being awake. O harp and lyre, I will awake
37:49
the dawn, you know. I will give praises to you among
37:54
the nations. I'll sing praises to you among
37:56
the peoples. And then he says, why?
37:59
For your steadfast love is great above the heavens, and your
38:02
faithfulness reaches to the clouds.
38:04
So there's a reason he's so excited.
38:07
He's going to wake the musicians.
38:08
He's going to awake cause the sun to rise up.
38:11
He's going to tell everybody about this.
38:12
Why? Because your steadfast love is
38:15
great above the heavens and your faithfulness reaches to the
38:17
clouds. You know, living on this side of
38:20
the the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.
38:22
We really know what that means, His steadfast love.
38:26
Oh, I was a Sinner going to hell.
38:27
I was condemned. I was blind.
38:28
I was clueless. I was a rebel.
38:30
I was a rebel. I was under God's wrath.
38:32
Now I'm forgiven. I'm justified.
38:35
I'm. I'm declared righteous in God's
38:37
eyes. I'm.
38:37
I'm adopted in Christ. I have the hope of eternal joy
38:42
at God's right hand, and as I'm thinking on those thoughts, how
38:45
can I not be affected by those? Yeah.
38:49
So as a leader, I want to point people to those things that are
38:53
meant to stir us to that joy that is inexpressible, full of
38:57
glory. Amen.
39:00
Man, that's so powerful. One of the things you said, I
39:04
have recently, 5-6 months ago took the lead pastor of a church
39:09
about 20 minutes from house. And so it's been an exciting
39:13
journey. We've been learning together and
39:16
it's my first time being a pastor and so it's been great.
39:20
But I was listening to a message just this past week that one of
39:23
our church members sent me and he made this statement and he
39:26
said I want to always remind our people why we do what we do.
39:31
What's the? Behind why we're doing it.
39:34
We're not just baptizing because we're baptized.
39:36
No, it's just a symbol of regeneration.
39:39
We don't just take communion because we take communion.
39:42
We take communion because it's a symbol of the death, burial,
39:45
resurrection of the body of Christ being broken for our
39:48
sins. You know, we it's it's
39:50
constantly reminding ourselves and our people what is the
39:54
reason of what we're doing. And I when I heard that, and you
39:58
said it as well, there's too. It just reminded me I do it
40:02
subconsciously and often times we don't do it or people have it
40:07
done in church and so they just come and they go through the
40:10
routine because. Well, Grandma said we got to go
40:12
to church, and we go to church and we sing a song.
40:14
We stand up, we sit down, we read a verse, we stand up, we
40:17
put down the pastor. But we don't understand the
40:19
purpose behind it. And so therefore, we fall into
40:22
the ritualistic acts of just going to church because it's
40:26
what we're supposed to do. Going through actions without
40:32
hard engagement is is abhorrent to God.
40:38
Yeah. It's not just a myth.
40:41
It's God doesn't accept that. And we we think we can get away
40:47
with it. And there is a place, I should
40:49
say there is a place, for doing things externally in order to
40:53
stir our affections. So you know, sometimes I might
40:58
lift my hands to remind myself that I'm dependent on the Lord.
41:03
It doesn't have to be just a crazy charismatic thing.
41:06
It's just that's what people do. That's what a, you know, 2 year
41:09
old does when they want to be held.
41:12
They hold up their hands. So, So John Calvin of all people
41:18
remarked on that how how physical actions can both
41:21
express what's inside us and affect what's inside us.
41:27
So. So there's a place for seeking
41:31
to stir your heart up. You know, through through going
41:35
to a Sunday meeting. I need to be there.
41:37
But you're doing it in faith, not out of rote, and not because
41:42
you just feel like you're putting in your time.
41:46
Yeah, last thing we'll look at and for a sake of time we'll do
41:49
this. You mentioned the near the very
41:52
beginning of the interview that even in the children of Israel
41:55
there was a personal worship and a corporate worship that brought
42:00
revival and revitalization to the church.
42:04
What's the challenges that you see so often in the personal
42:08
worship that we have and also the corporate worship that we
42:11
have? And what how is this a challenge
42:15
often that that brings in our life where we don't have that
42:18
revival that we need in our life personally and then it doesn't
42:22
flow over into corporately as well.
42:24
So, So what are some challenges to that that you would see?
42:28
You know that that's a great question.
42:30
The challenges aren't they have many manifestations, but their
42:36
root's always the same. You know, nothing's changed much
42:40
since Adam and Eve thought that they didn't need God to live
42:44
their lives. And so we've we follow in that
42:49
path. We've we've followed down that
42:50
track even as Christians. And for us it's we don't, we
42:56
don't recognize, you know that as Christians we have been
43:01
brought into Christ. I've been reading a lot about a
43:04
union with Christ. We have a conference coming up.
43:07
Worship God, one with Christ. How our union with Christ
43:10
effects everything. Yeah, if you can come, it'd be
43:14
great. It's in Louisville, July 24th
43:16
through 27th. But so I've been reading up on
43:18
the our union with Christ and been very affected by it, that
43:21
we tend to separate the benefits of Christ apart from him.
43:26
You know, we're from him, you know, so we're justified.
43:28
But do you know you're justified because you are in Christ?
43:32
We're we're sanctified or we're going to be sanctified.
43:34
You know, you're sanctified because you're in Christ.
43:37
That's what Paul says at the end of First Corinthians.
43:39
He became for us wisdom from God.
43:41
That is our righteousness, sanctification and redemption.
43:46
Jesus is all those things. So what happens?
43:48
The struggle is I keep pushing Jesus to the periphery.
43:53
I keep pushing him to the side. I think it's about me.
43:57
I think it's about my efforts. I think it's about my failures,
44:00
my successes, my motives, my achievements, my
44:04
accomplishments, my perspectives.
44:07
And rather than spending our days spending our devotions,
44:13
spending our time thinking how, how can I know Christ better and
44:19
and that that's where the means come in.
44:21
You know, we read His word, we pray, we we talk about the
44:26
things to the Lord. We read Christian books, we stir
44:29
our souls rather than spending the majority of our time
44:32
scrolling through Facebook, Instagram, watching videos,
44:35
games, video, you know, Netflix and whatever, just hanging out,
44:40
watching sports, whatever. You know that none of those are
44:42
bad by themselves. But where do we, where do we go
44:48
for our meaning in life? Where do we go for our joy in
44:50
life? Where do we go for our
44:51
satisfaction and and when we don't go to the Lord for those
44:56
things? Well, you show up at a Sunday
44:57
meeting and it's like it's not going to be that interesting.
45:02
You know, it's like this isn't giving me what I want.
45:06
You don't have the latest show that I've been watching, You
45:09
know, that's much more interesting than what's going on
45:11
here. So I think we underestimate who
45:16
God is, what he's done to save us, the fact that we are in
45:21
Christ, that he, his Spirit dwells within us, that we we
45:24
have a life where God is promised.
45:27
You know one of my favorite verses?
45:29
Psalm 40, verse five. You have multiplied the Lord my
45:32
God, your wondrous deeds, and your thoughts toward us.
45:34
None can compare with you. I will proclaim and tell of
45:36
them, yet they are more than can be told.
45:39
You know, God is is preparing wondrous deeds and thoughts for
45:42
us. He, he's, he's always thinking
45:44
about him. How can I, how can I make him or
45:46
her more like my son? How can I bless them?
45:49
How can I? How can I show them I care for
45:51
them? How can I lead them and the the
45:53
ways I want them to go? God's always doing this and we
45:57
think it's all up to us. We think it.
46:01
You know, we always come to God when we're in trouble or when we
46:05
want to feel spiritual, want to impress God.
46:08
And it's a life, It's a life for me to live as Christ and to die
46:12
as game. And what Paul's saying there is
46:16
while I'm alive, I want to, I want to live in Christ.
46:21
I I want to think about him, follow him, cherish him,
46:24
treasure him. And when I die, it's going to be
46:26
even better because it's going to be with him.
46:30
So because we don't cultivate those affections, you know, we
46:35
come to our gatherings not expecting to be moved, not
46:42
expecting to be awed, amazed, you know, in wonder.
46:48
And it is a truly wondrous thing that we can know the God who
46:54
created and sustains the universe.
46:56
That we can know the Son of God who lived on this earth.
47:00
A perfect life died in our place.
47:02
To receive the wrath of God rose from the dead, send it to His
47:05
Father's right hand is reigning and interceding for us right now
47:09
that we have His spirit living within us.
47:12
The Spirit of the living God lives within us.
47:16
To to lead us, to guide us, to illumine us.
47:19
To to strengthen us, sustain us, to help us know, enable us to
47:23
know the love of God in our hearts.
47:25
To put gifts in us that can be used in various ways.
47:28
To strengthen the body of Christ.
47:29
To bring glory to God. It's just like, So what did we
47:34
say? So what?
47:36
There's a new show coming on. There's a new game that just
47:38
came out. I just got a new computer.
47:40
I just got a new car. I just got.
47:43
We have no idea. Yeah, who?
47:47
Who? God has made us to be in Christ.
47:49
So I think it's it's cultivating those affections that make us
47:54
realize what is most valuable, what is most important, what is
48:01
most satisfying, and giving ourselves to those things in the
48:05
ways that God has enabled us to give ourselves to them.
48:12
Man, that's fantastic. I have so enjoyed this today.
48:17
This has been so much OH. Thanks, Thanks for having me.
48:21
It's been great for me. I know Brett has enjoyed it.
48:25
We may have not said a lot because I'm just sort of taking
48:27
it all in because it's been so great.
48:31
Me. I mean this is this is you know
48:33
I've I've read your life I've listened to you I've seen you on
48:36
the for me it's just it's it's it's great.
48:39
But again, getting us back into focus with, you know, when when
48:44
we understand the vastness of who God is and that he wants a
48:48
relationship with us. Yes.
48:50
Yeah, just the way we we worship.
48:53
It. Changes.
48:55
Yeah, yeah. And I I would encourage you know
48:57
those who are listening to not expect a song to do what what
49:03
Jesus is meant to do. We have great songs, but Jesus
49:06
is greater. That's right.
49:09
And you get to know Him and appreciate his love and his
49:13
greatness and his his beauty, His Majesty.
49:16
Then the songs begin to make sense and you'll sing him with
49:20
more enthusiasm and more heart and more enjoyment, and because
49:24
your focus will be in the right place.
49:27
Yeah. Brett, any final thoughts or
49:29
questions for Bob this morning? This evening I just want to echo
49:32
what James said. I've I've thoroughly enjoyed
49:35
today. I've learned so much from you,
49:38
even just listen to you speak on this subject of worship.
49:42
I can't wait for our listeners to hear you and I just want to
49:45
heartfelt thank you for taking the time to be with us today.
49:48
Absolutely. Thank you guys for what you're
49:50
doing. It's, it's, I appreciate, you
49:55
know, anyone who who seeks to bring people in out of the
49:59
bondage of religion into the freedom we have in Christ.
50:04
Amen. Because it is.
50:06
It is glorious. It's glorious.
50:09
That's good. Well, it's fitting today to sign
50:12
off this way and we'll continue doing it.
50:14
But until next time, to God. Not the pastor.
50:19
Be the glory. Amen.
50:21
Found my new. Name found that good grace found
50:27
that healing. And the tears fell down my face
50:31
when I from my beginning. It has no ending.
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From my second chance by my best friend, by my forgiveness, by my
50:37
happiness. I've been singing ever since I
50:39
found my freedom on me. Thanks for listening to the For
50:55
Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do
50:59
us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our
51:02
podcast on whichever podcast platform you use.
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Be sure to join us next time for the Four Freedom Podcast.