Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / More clues in Tampa serial killer probe; Did lawsuit loser kill attorney? Odd 911 call after murder!

Transcript

More clues in Tampa serial killer probe; Did lawsuit loser kill attorney? Odd 911 call after murder! · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel
0:09
Speaker 1: one thirty two. Tampa police on the hunt for a
0:12
Speaker 1: killer after the shooting debts of three people in ten days.
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Speaker 1: We will hunt this son of a down until we
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Speaker 1: find the three victims gunned down less than half a
0:21
Speaker 1: mile apart. Tampa's mayor doing what he can to reassure
0:25
Speaker 1: the public so that they've added a thousand streetlights to
0:27
Speaker 1: the Seminal Heights neighborhood and that they won't stop until
0:29
Speaker 1: that killer is caught. Nobody comes into our house and
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Speaker 1: does this not now, not ever. Authorities pouring over the
0:35
Speaker 1: ringing surveillance video for clues, looking at this person of
0:38
Speaker 1: interest walking alone, wearing a hood on the night of
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Speaker 1: the first killing. I need that Seminole Heights community to
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Speaker 1: stand up and I need them to point out who
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Speaker 1: that man is. You guys, go hunt him down and
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Speaker 1: bring his head to me. Fear of a serial killer
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Speaker 1: is paralyzing a Florida community as it stands right now,
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Speaker 1: Three dead within one thousand seat of each other, joining
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Speaker 1: me right now. Meredithinceulo with w f L A t
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Speaker 1: V on the same Meredith, what do we know now?
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Speaker 1: We're still looking for answers. All we know is that
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Speaker 1: three younger adults were killed. Uh. They were shot all
1:17
Speaker 1: in the evening during weekdays near a bus stop in
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Speaker 1: the neighborhood of Seminal Heights, which is about five minutes
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Speaker 1: from downtown Tampa. We do have Tampa Police out in
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Speaker 1: force throughout the neighborhood. They've also pulled in law enforcement
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Speaker 1: agencies from throughout the Tampa Bay Area to patrol and
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Speaker 1: UH the mayor here very worked up. He wants answers,
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Speaker 1: and he's very angry that someone is terrorizing our area
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Speaker 1: like this because it's it's like a phantom came into
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Speaker 1: this neighborhood. Um, someone is shooting people and disappearing into
1:51
Speaker 1: thin air. Uh. One of those victims was shot within
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Speaker 1: blocks of one of those heightened police patrols. Officers actually
2:00
Speaker 1: the shot ran to try to help, and when they arrived,
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Speaker 1: the young autistic man was was laying there dead. And
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Speaker 1: we just don't have any answers um right now. What
2:10
Speaker 1: Tampa police have done. Uh, they are calling for all
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Speaker 1: surveillance video from anyone's home in the neighborhood, whether they
2:18
Speaker 1: think they've captured something on camera or not. They want
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Speaker 1: all of that, and they are literally watching these videos
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Speaker 1: in real time just to look for anything. Right now,
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Speaker 1: the only thing that's been released is one video from
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Speaker 1: the night of the first murder, and on that video
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Speaker 1: you can see what appears to be a man walking
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Speaker 1: down a street. We don't know who that man is. Uh.
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Speaker 1: There is a reward for information to anyone that can
2:43
Speaker 1: lead them to this man, but at this point that's
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Speaker 1: the only person of interest there is in this case,
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Speaker 1: and we don't even know if that person was involved
2:52
Speaker 1: in these murders. Take a listen to the morning roll
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Speaker 1: call at the police department. We're going to get this on.
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Speaker 1: You heard me say the other day. We're gonna hunt
3:01
Speaker 1: this sum down until we catch him, and it's gonna
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Speaker 1: be you guys, and it's gonna be great police work,
3:06
Speaker 1: doing what you guys do every day every day. This
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Speaker 1: guy is not gonna win. He's not taking over this neighborhood,
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Speaker 1: he's not taking over these streets. You guys, go hunt
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Speaker 1: him down and bring his bring his head to me,
3:21
Speaker 1: all right. Twenty two year old Benjamin Mitchell dead, thirty
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Speaker 1: two year old Monica Hoffa dead, twenty year old Anthony
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Speaker 1: Noboa dad, All of them, we believe victims of the
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Speaker 1: so called Tampa serial killer. When will it end? How
3:40
Speaker 1: did it start? Are their victims? Preceding this? To Cheryl McCollum,
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Speaker 1: do you think it's feasible that there have been other
3:47
Speaker 1: victims of the same guy that are not connected, that
3:50
Speaker 1: occurred before these three. I absolutely believe he has attempted
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Speaker 1: something before, whether it was an armed robbery to see
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Speaker 1: how it went, or whether he used the knights the
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Speaker 1: first come. I don't think there's any questions he had
4:02
Speaker 1: something prior to these events, no doubt. Every morning, Tampa
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Speaker 1: police watching over children as they wait at their school
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Speaker 1: bus stops. City workers have cleared away debris from Alley's.
4:17
Speaker 1: Burned out street lights have been replaced. It's gonna make
4:20
Speaker 1: it harder for anyone to hide in the shadows. But
4:23
Speaker 1: this guy was caught on video. If it's the right
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Speaker 1: guy and there were lights and there was video surveillance,
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Speaker 1: Tampa Police Chief Brian Dugan released new video last night
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Speaker 1: showing this person of interest and an odd habit. This
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Speaker 1: person seems to have repeatedly flipping the smartphone with the
4:42
Speaker 1: right hand like a nervous habit. Listeners can see the
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Speaker 1: new video in this story that accompanies our podcast on
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Speaker 1: Nancy's website crime online dot com. Here's Chief Dugan and
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Speaker 1: then you're gonna see his hand, his right hand, he
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Speaker 1: appears to flip his phone and its significan again we think,
5:02
Speaker 1: but it could be a habit. Maybe many people do it.
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Speaker 1: So just watch this and work through me with this.
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Speaker 1: And we want everyone at home to start looking at
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Speaker 1: this video and tell us what to do what they
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Speaker 1: think of it. You see he takes the phone. I
5:16
Speaker 1: think it's a heat but it could be anybody either
5:19
Speaker 1: right front pocket. Watch his right hand, the flip of
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Speaker 1: the phone. Now it looks as he's looking at his
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Speaker 1: phone or her. This is all before the shooting and
5:35
Speaker 1: this and you can see where some of the video
5:38
Speaker 1: is not clear. But in my opinion, if you knew
5:41
Speaker 1: who this person was, if you were to if if
5:44
Speaker 1: that were me and that video, I have to believe
5:46
Speaker 1: that my neighbors would be able to identify me. Okay,
5:50
Speaker 1: now this is important. The next video clip that you
5:53
Speaker 1: see is gonna be very important, and you're gonna see
5:56
Speaker 1: why we think this is a person of interest. I
5:59
Speaker 1: am completely a comfortable and calling this person this is
6:02
Speaker 1: a person of interest. Now we have video this same
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Speaker 1: person that we believe is now running from the area
6:13
Speaker 1: and this is this is this person is running just
6:16
Speaker 1: seconds after the murder. We believe that this person has
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Speaker 1: ties to this neighborhood and we want to speak to them.
6:27
Speaker 1: So let's look at when you think about this person running,
6:32
Speaker 1: why are they running? There are probably I've come up
6:35
Speaker 1: with four reasons why this person is running. One they
6:38
Speaker 1: may be late for dinner too, they're out exercising. Three
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Speaker 1: they heard gunshots and number four they just murdered Benjamin
6:48
Speaker 1: Mitchell outside Fate the Baptist Church. There is one of
6:54
Speaker 1: those signs that you can change the letters on and
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Speaker 1: it says do not murder. Why to Joseph Scott Morgan
7:04
Speaker 1: and Dr Daniel Bober forensics psychiatrist. First to you, Dr Bober,
7:08
Speaker 1: are people arguing this isn't a serial killer? Dr Bober, Well,
7:13
Speaker 1: it's based it's based on the number of victims and
7:15
Speaker 1: nancy and in these cases we want to look at
7:17
Speaker 1: commonalities and patterns. You know, it's probably easier in this
7:20
Speaker 1: day and age to catch a killer like this that
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Speaker 1: it would be saying. You know, when you had the
7:24
Speaker 1: son of Sam where he was caught pretty much accidentally
7:27
Speaker 1: by a parking ticket that was left on his car.
7:30
Speaker 1: With all the surveillance video and all the electronics out there, uh,
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Speaker 1: there's a much higher chance that something captured this guy
7:38
Speaker 1: and he will you know, be apprehended. To you, Joseph
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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, forensics expert, this is this is my thing, Nancy,
7:45
Speaker 1: and this is very important. I want to know what
7:48
Speaker 1: the ballistics are in this case because that's gonna show
7:51
Speaker 1: us some kind of patterns, some kind of connectivity relative
7:54
Speaker 1: to the striations on the recovered rounds. That is, if
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Speaker 1: they have actually recovered round it in every single case.
8:01
Speaker 1: I think that they probably have and extracted from the
8:03
Speaker 1: bodies at autopsy. I want to know if those rounds
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Speaker 1: match up, because that's going to tie it back to
8:08
Speaker 1: a single weapon and that's gonna be very important moving forward. Again.
8:13
Speaker 1: That shows this connectivity through and through in the pattern
8:16
Speaker 1: that the doctor was Benjamin Mitchell, Monica Hoffa, Anthony Noboa.
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Speaker 1: The only common thread, the only connector between them, Cheryl McCollum,
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Speaker 1: was the Route nine bus, and that's the bus that
8:29
Speaker 1: goes north south on a route from the University of
8:32
Speaker 1: South Florida to downtown Tampa and back day in day out.
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Speaker 1: I'm wondering, Cheryl, if this guy was not on the
8:40
Speaker 1: bus with them and then gets off, gets off at
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Speaker 1: the stop, and then shoots them, or is he waiting
8:46
Speaker 1: waiting in the shadows behind trees, bushes, fences, structures for
8:50
Speaker 1: somebody to get off so we can just pick them
8:52
Speaker 1: off like a sniper. Cheryl, Well, he certainly is familiar
8:55
Speaker 1: with that area in the routine and the bus schedule.
8:57
Speaker 1: There's no doubt about that. So again, Nancy, what very
9:01
Speaker 1: clear to me is the person that some video has
9:04
Speaker 1: been shown every night on the night we needs. It's
9:06
Speaker 1: all over social media. Whoever that person is has not
9:10
Speaker 1: come forward. Whoever that person's family is have not come forward,
9:15
Speaker 1: friends have not come forward. That tells me other people
9:19
Speaker 1: have a sense of who this could also be. You
9:21
Speaker 1: know what's interesting, Dr Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, This video
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Speaker 1: of what appears to be a man wearing light colored
9:28
Speaker 1: pants and a dark hood. He ever's head, is walking
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Speaker 1: alone through the neighborhood and he is glancing at a
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Speaker 1: cell phone. You can see the cell phone light up
9:38
Speaker 1: when he touches it. What kind of person is that
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Speaker 1: the guns somebody down, then walks off and starts checking
9:45
Speaker 1: their messages, someone who is absolutely cold blooded and absolutely
9:49
Speaker 1: has no remorse for their actions. But again, you point
9:52
Speaker 1: out something else, you know, a cell phone. Again, there's
9:54
Speaker 1: another way that this person could potentially be tracked by
9:57
Speaker 1: their cell phone. It's most likely someone lit that lives
10:00
Speaker 1: or at least feels comfortable in that geographical area. So
10:04
Speaker 1: I think that there's a lot of clues here that
10:06
Speaker 1: could potentially lead to to this person's apprehension. Marinus Cincelo.
10:09
Speaker 1: My fear as if I don't want the killer to
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Speaker 1: do anything else. But if the killer doesn't do anything
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Speaker 1: else and no one comes forward, Meredith Cecelo w f
10:21
Speaker 1: l A TV, how can he be caught? You know,
10:24
Speaker 1: we've seen this in so many cold cases where no
10:28
Speaker 1: one talks for years, no one talks, and secrets are kept.
10:33
Speaker 1: And I think that there is definitely a fear in
10:36
Speaker 1: this community that that will happen. Um. I know right
10:41
Speaker 1: now people in the neighborhood are not only scared, but
10:44
Speaker 1: now they're getting angry. Um. You hear it from our mayor.
10:47
Speaker 1: You know, I want his head like he is, he
10:51
Speaker 1: is ticked off. You know, UM, people want to know
10:55
Speaker 1: what's happening. And you know, now, I believe that Tampa
10:59
Speaker 1: police all of haven't come out and said this directly.
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Speaker 1: It's been implied they're going back and looking at other cases,
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Speaker 1: you know, other shootings that have occurred, maybe not in
11:09
Speaker 1: Seminal Heights, But is there anything to link those shootings
11:13
Speaker 1: with what's occurred here. Yeah, it's at this point unless
11:18
Speaker 1: this happens again, which we all hope it doesn't. But
11:22
Speaker 1: the only thing to do is look at the existing
11:25
Speaker 1: evidence and look at other cases that has not been
11:28
Speaker 1: solved and see if there's any links there. But you're right,
11:32
Speaker 1: if someone knows something, it's very unlikely that it's only
11:37
Speaker 1: this this person that knows what's going on. UM, we
11:41
Speaker 1: do believe it is someone that is very comfortable in
11:44
Speaker 1: the neighborhood, given the fact that that he's disappeared into
11:48
Speaker 1: thin air. The third case, as I mentioned, the police
11:51
Speaker 1: officers heard it happen. Uh, they were in the neighborhood
11:54
Speaker 1: with their saturated patrols, and there was nothing found, no evidence.
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Speaker 1: The guy escapes. You know what's interesting, UM, let me
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Speaker 1: throw this to you. Sheryl McCollum. I keep looking at
12:04
Speaker 1: the video over and over and over, and I think
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Speaker 1: it's a male. Serial killers not always, but are typically
12:12
Speaker 1: a white male. And you can very often tell by
12:16
Speaker 1: the race of the victims, because serial killers usually kill
12:19
Speaker 1: within their own race. But here that's not true because
12:22
Speaker 1: you have Caucasians and African Americans. So I'm looking at
12:26
Speaker 1: it and I can't tell if it's the lighting. And
12:31
Speaker 1: I hate to call it, but it looks like a
12:34
Speaker 1: light skinned person to me, because as they're walking away,
12:38
Speaker 1: they keep walking, they keep walking, they pass a tree,
12:41
Speaker 1: they're walking along you know, parked cars, they pass a tree,
12:45
Speaker 1: and they're a little hidden behind the polots and they
12:47
Speaker 1: come out from behind a tree and right then it
12:51
Speaker 1: looks like a light skinned face. But I can't tell
12:54
Speaker 1: if the person is white or not. I can't tell
12:59
Speaker 1: a piece of evidence. And I'm certain that the police
13:01
Speaker 1: are owned right this minute. And that's the actual bullets,
13:05
Speaker 1: the projectile, so he had to load that weapon. There
13:09
Speaker 1: could be a fingerprint, there could be um other evidence
13:14
Speaker 1: that is really unique, not just about the trajectory or
13:18
Speaker 1: the you know, the striations, but there's other things that
13:21
Speaker 1: bullet can tell them to narrow this down. So for example,
13:25
Speaker 1: let's say it's a very unusual weapon that recently was
13:27
Speaker 1: stolen from somewhere. They may be able to connect him
13:30
Speaker 1: to a burglary. They may be able to connect him
13:33
Speaker 1: to a purchase of a weapon. There's multitude of things
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Speaker 1: going on at the exact same time with this person,
13:40
Speaker 1: not just the video and not just a cell phone pinging.
13:43
Speaker 1: They're doing all the above. Go ahead, Just god, Nancy,
13:46
Speaker 1: something just occurred to me that that is rather troubling.
13:50
Speaker 1: I'd like to also direct us at Cheryl as well.
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Speaker 1: When you were referring to him looking at that phone,
13:56
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that this is what he was doing
13:58
Speaker 1: looking at a news account. Let's is considered this a
14:01
Speaker 1: music Yeah, that's what this is going to. I'm wondering.
14:05
Speaker 1: I am wondering, Nancy, if this guy is not receiving
14:09
Speaker 1: some kind of thrill office himself in the news uh
14:14
Speaker 1: and seeing this in real time. And there have been
14:17
Speaker 1: documented cases of serialized events where individuals really really get
14:22
Speaker 1: juiced out of this idea of committing these horrible acts
14:25
Speaker 1: and then seeing how this impacts their community. And I
14:29
Speaker 1: reported that's on with us had mentioned this in specifically,
14:31
Speaker 1: specifically that this guy knows this neighborhood, and I don't
14:35
Speaker 1: I don't know what kind of animosity that an individual
14:37
Speaker 1: might have, but I think that it's really compelling. Here
14:40
Speaker 1: is this guy waiting. He kind of absorbs, you know,
14:43
Speaker 1: all of the impact, the initial impact, until it builds
14:46
Speaker 1: up again and then he has to go out and
14:48
Speaker 1: shoot again, almost like a thrill thrill killing. And I'm
14:51
Speaker 1: really wondering that's something we're not looking at him. He
14:54
Speaker 1: is getting that because I can tell you, you know,
14:57
Speaker 1: as a reporter, O has somebody now parked in the
15:01
Speaker 1: neighborhood seven, you know, because we want to be there
15:05
Speaker 1: something happened, and you know, so he's if that's what
15:09
Speaker 1: he wants, that's what he's getting because all of us,
15:12
Speaker 1: all of the local stations, are doing the same thing.
15:15
Speaker 1: You know. The other day, I was the one that
15:18
Speaker 1: was sent to sit there and wait, you know, wait
15:21
Speaker 1: for the morning. And I was by myself, and I
15:23
Speaker 1: gotta be honest with you, I was frightened. I specifically
15:28
Speaker 1: chose a church parking lot that backed up to a
15:30
Speaker 1: busy road and not to be you know, make fun
15:33
Speaker 1: of it or anything, but I thought, you know, at
15:36
Speaker 1: least if the vehicle is backed up to a busy road.
15:39
Speaker 1: I have witnessed this. If something happened. I was actually
15:42
Speaker 1: watching something on the news that really troubled me. I mean,
15:45
Speaker 1: it scared me down. It just scared me. There there
15:48
Speaker 1: was a reporter interviewing a gentleman in front of his home,
15:52
Speaker 1: and he was in full face, and he was talking
15:54
Speaker 1: about how scared he was and all these things. And
15:57
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, this guy lives in this neighborhood. There is
16:00
Speaker 1: no way on God's green earth that I would appear
16:03
Speaker 1: on camera, uh to demonstrate how bold or fearless or
16:07
Speaker 1: anything I was at this point in time. Particularly if
16:09
Speaker 1: this guy is looking to receive a thrill out of
16:12
Speaker 1: terrorizing people, It's just it's horrible, absolute horrible. That's something
16:17
Speaker 1: I tried to allude to reach so yesterday. I believe
16:21
Speaker 1: he will reach out to the media. I believe that's
16:24
Speaker 1: part of his thing. If you think of Vodiac, she
16:27
Speaker 1: gave himself a nickname, son of Sam gave himself a nickname.
16:31
Speaker 1: I think he might have even filmed what he did.
16:34
Speaker 1: And you think that may be because we see the
16:36
Speaker 1: cell phone. Absolutely, you think that could have been when
16:41
Speaker 1: he was looking at playing it back no question. If
16:44
Speaker 1: you watch what he's doing, his phone is just scrolling, scrolling, scrolling.
16:48
Speaker 1: It might have been a series of photographs, it might
16:50
Speaker 1: be something that to me, there's a great possibility, and
16:53
Speaker 1: I'm telling you the media will be involved. He wants it.
16:58
Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Bober, How me get a profile on this guy? Well,
17:01
Speaker 1: you know, Nancy, I agree with what a lot of
17:04
Speaker 1: your guests are saying. I mean, this is clearly someone
17:06
Speaker 1: who gets the gratification from the attention of these crimes.
17:11
Speaker 1: And you know, with the proliferation of social media over
17:13
Speaker 1: the last ten years, it's even more pronounced. You know,
17:15
Speaker 1: you do something now and it's all over the world
17:18
Speaker 1: in seconds. And so it's very possible that while he
17:20
Speaker 1: was on his phone he was looking at pictures. He
17:23
Speaker 1: could have been doing any number of things. Um. But
17:26
Speaker 1: you know, the serial killers, very often they uh you know,
17:29
Speaker 1: have an act to grind. They are very often people
17:32
Speaker 1: who feel marginalized and inadequate and the only way they
17:35
Speaker 1: could feel powerful is to fill that void by committing violence,
17:39
Speaker 1: uh towards others. And it's the ultimate act of control.
17:42
Speaker 1: The tip line eight eight seven three tips T I
17:46
Speaker 1: P S. There is a twenty five thousand dollar reward.
17:51
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Speaker 1: zoom dot com. Right now, we had to Kansas City
19:10
Speaker 1: where a young dad, a Kansas City lawyer, has been
19:15
Speaker 1: gunned down sitting on his own front porch just after
19:19
Speaker 1: he comes back from walking his two little children to school.
19:23
Speaker 1: This is what we know right now. Tom Pickart found
19:26
Speaker 1: murdered outside his home in Kansas City. The thirty nine
19:29
Speaker 1: year old wife was at home and found him dead
19:32
Speaker 1: on the front porch. Oh stars, I feel so bad
19:37
Speaker 1: for her. Police hunting the killer, who witnesses say sped
19:42
Speaker 1: away from the scene in a white Chevy van. The
19:46
Speaker 1: van was registered to a guy named David Jungerman j
19:51
Speaker 1: U N G E R M A N who was
19:53
Speaker 1: a defendant. That's who you accused of wrongdoing. It could
19:58
Speaker 1: be civil defend which is often called a respondent or
20:02
Speaker 1: a criminal defendant in a case. Now, this guy, the
20:07
Speaker 1: lawyer Tom Tom Pickhart, had represented a homeless man. The
20:12
Speaker 1: homeless man was suing younger man for shooting him and
20:16
Speaker 1: causing him to lose part of his leg. So the
20:20
Speaker 1: homeless guy was shot and lost actually lost part of
20:23
Speaker 1: his leg for the rest of his life. It's gone.
20:26
Speaker 1: So the lawyer, this guy now dead a father, thirty
20:30
Speaker 1: nine year old husband, and dad is dad. He's dead.
20:34
Speaker 1: He won the case for the homeless guy and it
20:37
Speaker 1: resulted in Youngerman having to pay five point seven five
20:41
Speaker 1: million dollars in damages. Pickert found murder just outside his
20:47
Speaker 1: home in Brookside at eight a m. On a Wednesday morning.
20:53
Speaker 1: To crime scene investigator director of the Cold Case Institute,
20:57
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, analyze. First of all, we're gonna want to
21:01
Speaker 1: know what weapon was used in this latest murder. Is
21:04
Speaker 1: it the same type caliber that was used when he
21:06
Speaker 1: shot the homeless man? We know in that incident it
21:09
Speaker 1: was an A K forty seven. Um. We're gonna also
21:12
Speaker 1: want to process that van. There's gonna be latent, Prince.
21:16
Speaker 1: Do they only belongs to this particular subspect or is
21:20
Speaker 1: they belong to someone else? Um. They're also they're going
21:22
Speaker 1: to his home and they're gonna get his computers. They're
21:25
Speaker 1: gonna see what he was checking about, what he was
21:27
Speaker 1: posting about, what he was angry about, because again there's
21:30
Speaker 1: five point seven million reasons motives. Well, I know this.
21:34
Speaker 1: To Joseph Scott Morgame, Professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University,
21:38
Speaker 1: I know this at eight am. That is not a
21:41
Speaker 1: random killing. You don't wake up at seven o'clock, have
21:45
Speaker 1: a cup of hot tea and then grab your thirty eight,
21:49
Speaker 1: grab your nine on the way out the door. That's
21:52
Speaker 1: not how that goes down. That was planned. You're absolutely right.
21:54
Speaker 1: This is another curious thing. It appears that obviously that
21:58
Speaker 1: this is a targeting event. Keep in mind, the gentleman
22:01
Speaker 1: that has been killed here had just walked his kids
22:05
Speaker 1: to school and then upon returning, upon returning home, the
22:10
Speaker 1: wife reports that she heard a single shot, a single
22:13
Speaker 1: shot that was focused on this parent, on this individual,
22:16
Speaker 1: apparently focused well enough that he dropped this individual dead
22:20
Speaker 1: out in front of the home. So, uh, there's a
22:23
Speaker 1: lot of things coming into play here as far as
22:25
Speaker 1: targeting goes a specific individual, and you're old lawyer Tom
22:29
Speaker 1: Pickard from walking his children to school to Dr Daniel Bober,
22:33
Speaker 1: forensic psychiatrist. Dr Bober. Of course, my legal career, my
22:37
Speaker 1: whole legal career was spent in public service versus a
22:40
Speaker 1: law clerk to a judge, then with the Feds, then
22:44
Speaker 1: as a violent crime prosecutor in inner city Atlanta. UM. However,
22:50
Speaker 1: many lawyers I dealt with that handled civil cases. This
22:55
Speaker 1: was a civil case. The homeless guy was suing for money.
23:00
Speaker 1: Said that rather do a criminal case than a civil
23:05
Speaker 1: I remember one of my best friends, Cheryl, you know
23:09
Speaker 1: the story, Renee Rockwell, was handling a divorce between very,
23:16
Speaker 1: very wealthy couple in Atlanta, and she would come over
23:22
Speaker 1: and stay at my pathetic little place, Cheryl during the
23:26
Speaker 1: divorce trial, because she was afraid the husband might take
23:29
Speaker 1: a shot at her. Because people get that crazy during
23:33
Speaker 1: divorces and lawsuits over money. Um, I always said, I
23:39
Speaker 1: couldn't stomach civil civil lawyering. I'd rather try a serial
23:43
Speaker 1: killer than work on a divorce case or a midmal
23:46
Speaker 1: case or a case like this. People get crazy, Dr
23:53
Speaker 1: Daniel Bober in these civil cases over money. You're absolutely right, Nancy.
23:58
Speaker 1: In fact, it's spent my own experience. Especially in these
24:00
Speaker 1: child custody cases. There is so much rate that I
24:04
Speaker 1: would rather be involved as an expert in it for
24:06
Speaker 1: a murder case than absolutely in any kind of child
24:09
Speaker 1: custody case or any case where there's large amounts of money. Uh,
24:13
Speaker 1: the tensions are so high and there's so much anger
24:16
Speaker 1: that sometimes all this expressed emotion boils over into violence
24:19
Speaker 1: and this could be a situation that it seems to
24:22
Speaker 1: be where, uh, there's so much vindictiveness on the part
24:26
Speaker 1: of this defendant that he obviously went all the way
24:30
Speaker 1: and took this attorney out. You know, just Scott kim Or,
24:32
Speaker 1: Crime Stories investigative reporter, the homeless guy was allegedly trying
24:39
Speaker 1: to steal copper wire at the time he was shot.
24:43
Speaker 1: What do we know about that incident, Scott kim Or, Yes,
24:46
Speaker 1: we have. The two men were in the business and
24:48
Speaker 1: we're stealing the copper wire, and we understand that the
24:52
Speaker 1: the the business owner here, junger Man, arrived with an
24:56
Speaker 1: a K fort and shot the two men and you know,
25:00
Speaker 1: badly injuring them. What we know about the victim is
25:03
Speaker 1: this thirty nine year old Pickhart, married with children, had
25:07
Speaker 1: one this case for his client, which resulted in a
25:10
Speaker 1: five point seven million dollar verdict. Court officials state the
25:15
Speaker 1: process last week of seizing Youngerman's property occurred in both
25:21
Speaker 1: his home and his business. How mad do you think
25:25
Speaker 1: he was? Jackie is telling me here in the studio
25:28
Speaker 1: that he answered a silent alarm and discovered the two
25:33
Speaker 1: guys stealing copper and opened fire with an a K
25:36
Speaker 1: forty seven, then he gets this nearly six million dollar
25:40
Speaker 1: verdict against him. Now this past week, court officials were
25:46
Speaker 1: seizing property from his home and his business to pay
25:50
Speaker 1: this nearly six million dollar verdict. I know that the
25:55
Speaker 1: victim's wife worked at as a doctor for the University
26:02
Speaker 1: of Kansas Health System UM and just beside myself about
26:09
Speaker 1: the children, the two little boys that we know of
26:14
Speaker 1: to have their dad gunned down on the front porch.
26:17
Speaker 1: You know, I'm looking at a picture of David Jungerman
26:22
Speaker 1: and he looks like, you know, if you put a
26:27
Speaker 1: beard and a red hat on him, Cheryl mcconomy could
26:30
Speaker 1: play Santa Claus. He's smiling, he's got a um red
26:35
Speaker 1: cheeks and did just you know, if you dressed them
26:38
Speaker 1: up right, it could be Santa for Pete's sake. Me
26:40
Speaker 1: to his case is so heartbreaking all the way around,
26:42
Speaker 1: but you know, it makes me think of Sarah Tokar
26:45
Speaker 1: is a little bit. And all I can say is
26:46
Speaker 1: that least the shooter wait until the children were at
26:50
Speaker 1: school and not with him. We're taking a look at
26:53
Speaker 1: this guy, David Youngerman. He made the news when he
26:57
Speaker 1: shot two homeless people in his Missourity proper with an
27:00
Speaker 1: A K forty seven after he caught them thanks to
27:02
Speaker 1: a silent alarm, stealing copper wire. Then there was another
27:06
Speaker 1: incident where he had painted a sign on a semi
27:10
Speaker 1: trailer calling democrats quote parasites but now a then allegedly
27:15
Speaker 1: registered to This seventy nine year old Kansas City business
27:19
Speaker 1: owner is linked by witnesses to the shooting death of
27:24
Speaker 1: a young lawyer who had won a huge civil judgment
27:29
Speaker 1: against younger man. This is what we know, and we're
27:33
Speaker 1: looking at photos of him. We're trying to figure out
27:36
Speaker 1: what he's all about. Tom Pickhart, thirty nine, was a
27:39
Speaker 1: partner and a well known Kansas City law firm and
27:42
Speaker 1: had just gotten back from walking his children to school.
27:46
Speaker 1: Neighbors described shots ringing out and hearing a woman screaming.
27:51
Speaker 1: Then a neighbor says they saw a white van quote
27:55
Speaker 1: crawling down Pickart Street the night before the shooting. What
28:00
Speaker 1: does that say to you, Joe Scott Morgan, sounds like
28:03
Speaker 1: he was casing the scene. Yeah, he wanted to get
28:06
Speaker 1: whoever did this, wanted to get a perspective on the
28:09
Speaker 1: targeting area where this young man was shot um and
28:14
Speaker 1: specific to where he was going to pounce on this individual.
28:18
Speaker 1: I'm I'm gonna be interested in seeing the forensics here,
28:21
Speaker 1: particularly where the entrance wound is on this fellow and
28:26
Speaker 1: what the relationship is as far as the shooting. Was
28:30
Speaker 1: this huh an incident that this weapon was fired at
28:34
Speaker 1: close range? Or was it something that was fired at
28:37
Speaker 1: a great distance? Uh? Did he wait until this guy
28:40
Speaker 1: was about to walk into the house? Uh? You know?
28:43
Speaker 1: Or was he face to face with him when this
28:45
Speaker 1: when this event occurred. That says a lot about the
28:48
Speaker 1: individual that's doing this. We also know that the van
28:51
Speaker 1: has been recovered. The white Chevy van has been recovered empty. Um.
28:58
Speaker 1: I want to go back to share on McCollum, crime
29:00
Speaker 1: scene investigator and director of the Cold Case Institute, Cheryl,
29:04
Speaker 1: I want to hear your thoughts on this. We've got
29:06
Speaker 1: a wife now a widow, and two little boys still
29:10
Speaker 1: so young they have to be walked to school without
29:12
Speaker 1: a dad. Nancy. I believe this shooter shot from the van,
29:16
Speaker 1: so we use the van as his cover to try
29:19
Speaker 1: to be unseen, speed away very quickly. Um. Again, we
29:25
Speaker 1: know he's capable of shooting people. We know he's capable
29:29
Speaker 1: of shooting people over property, So you're gonna shoot somebody
29:33
Speaker 1: over copper wire? What is he going to do when
29:37
Speaker 1: it's five point seven million dollars, Cheryl? Are you sitting down?
29:42
Speaker 1: Um in He was arrested for holding juveniles at gunpoint
29:47
Speaker 1: after he found them fishing in his pond. We now
29:51
Speaker 1: have a clear pattern with this guy. You do not
29:55
Speaker 1: touch his property and this is probably Wait a minute, Cheryl,
29:59
Speaker 1: I'm wasn't quite I wasn't quite through. One month after
30:03
Speaker 1: he shoots the two homeless men at his business, which
30:06
Speaker 1: he admits to, he allegedly shot another suspected intruder. Okay, wow,
30:16
Speaker 1: that's quite a resume. Dr Daniel Bober, quite a resume.
30:20
Speaker 1: Any You know, you don't have to be a forensic
30:22
Speaker 1: psychiatrist to see the pattern here and realize that this
30:24
Speaker 1: guy has totally disproportionate responses two people touching his property.
30:29
Speaker 1: So it really if he is in fact the shooter,
30:32
Speaker 1: that certainly would be consistent with his pattern in the past.
30:35
Speaker 1: Where does it stand right now with me? Is Alan
30:37
Speaker 1: deep joining me from l A Alan? Right now? What
30:41
Speaker 1: do we know right now? This man has not been
30:43
Speaker 1: named a suspect. What they do say is that it
30:46
Speaker 1: was his van that they found and they're searching the
30:48
Speaker 1: van for clues and they're considering whether to arrest him.
30:52
Speaker 1: We do know that they've been at his business, they've
30:54
Speaker 1: been at his home for some time, and we're waiting
30:58
Speaker 1: to see what the next development is. Well, I know
30:59
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32:59
Speaker 1: The chilling nine one one call. Those are the words
33:02
Speaker 1: when a married school teacher is found stabbed dead just
33:07
Speaker 1: before her daughter's wedding. Her husband says intruders murdered his wife.
33:14
Speaker 1: I Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for
33:17
Speaker 1: being with us. First of all, let's listen to that
33:20
Speaker 1: nine one one call and see what we can learn.
33:23
Speaker 1: And when one's the city of your emergency, Ohio. We
33:26
Speaker 1: have people on the way already. What's the address, Blazing Starter.
33:31
Speaker 1: I think someone killed my wife. Do you think someone
33:33
Speaker 1: killed your wife? Yeah? There looks like stablins on her back.
33:36
Speaker 1: We think people trying to break in our house a year.
33:41
Speaker 1: I need to ask you questions. Okay, are you there
33:43
Speaker 1: right now? I just got in the door with my
33:45
Speaker 1: new son in law. My son Kyle was here with her.
33:48
Speaker 1: What I want you to do is walk outside and
33:50
Speaker 1: stay in the front. Okay, you said she's stabbed in
33:52
Speaker 1: the back. Yeah, I don't want to Yeah, if you
33:55
Speaker 1: don't think, you can start. I don't think she's her
33:58
Speaker 1: face hit the ground and says blood. There's a fool
34:00
Speaker 1: of blood. If she's breathing. No, she is not got CPR. Okay.
34:07
Speaker 1: What I want you to do is I want you
34:09
Speaker 1: to go outside. Everyone in the house, go outside and
34:12
Speaker 1: wait in the front. Okay, do you see anyone else
34:19
Speaker 1: in the home. My son Kyle is here. He has
34:22
Speaker 1: down syndrome. She sent me a text to meet me
34:25
Speaker 1: at brew kettle at I didn't hear from her. I
34:29
Speaker 1: didn't expect this. What's no sir? I understand your upset,
34:33
Speaker 1: but where's Kyle out in the home? If she's outside
34:35
Speaker 1: with jeff our son in law, you know, we'd asked
34:38
Speaker 1: people to watch our freaking area. We've had people attempt
34:41
Speaker 1: to break in just this week. I don't know what's
34:43
Speaker 1: going on in this city, but this isn't getting done.
34:46
Speaker 1: Understand your upset, but can you give me your name?
34:48
Speaker 1: You people dropped the ball? Sir? Can you just take
34:52
Speaker 1: a deep breath? Is there any full city is getting
34:54
Speaker 1: freaking taken over? Sir? I understand your upset, but I
34:57
Speaker 1: need to just stay focused. Okay, you don't think you
34:59
Speaker 1: can perform? See be are correct? I can't believe this.
35:03
Speaker 1: You better breaking all your I saw this chair down.
35:09
Speaker 1: You said she's in the kitchen. She is in the kitchen?
35:14
Speaker 1: Was well, I got here, we got all my three
35:19
Speaker 1: minutes ago. You said she's in the kitchen her what's
35:22
Speaker 1: your morning? What's your name? Ruth Pluskovic? I'm her husband.
35:29
Speaker 1: We've had people trying to break in our house like
35:32
Speaker 1: a lot slash our camera that We're getting targeted, and
35:36
Speaker 1: I don't buy who is doing this that I'm picked
35:39
Speaker 1: Joining me Cheryl McCullum, Director of the Cold Case Institute,
35:42
Speaker 1: crime scene investigator, Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, Professor of
35:47
Speaker 1: Forensics at Jacksonville State University, Scott Kimbler, Crime Stories contributor,
35:52
Speaker 1: and Dr Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, straight out to Joseph
35:57
Speaker 1: Scott Morrigan, Joe Scott, what do you learn from the
36:02
Speaker 1: nine one one call? The strange thing about this call, Nancy,
36:05
Speaker 1: for me, is that the husband who initiated the call
36:09
Speaker 1: calls nine one one and says that his wife he
36:13
Speaker 1: came home found his wife dead on the floor and
36:17
Speaker 1: that she appears to have been stabbed, uh and stabbed
36:21
Speaker 1: like multiple times, but he's not attempting cpr um And
36:27
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, he goes into in the
36:30
Speaker 1: midst of the nine one one call, goes into a
36:32
Speaker 1: tirade directed at the local police department, talking about how
36:36
Speaker 1: they've had burglars over the past year, and he doesn't
36:39
Speaker 1: understand why the community is not being taken care of.
36:42
Speaker 1: All the while his wife is dead on the floor
36:45
Speaker 1: or close to death. They the nine one one operator
36:48
Speaker 1: can't even get it verified that she is in fact deceased.
36:51
Speaker 1: I hear what you're saying, Justice Scott Morgan. Sheryl McCollum,
36:55
Speaker 1: director of the Cold Case Institute. He's right. At first
36:59
Speaker 1: I would have said that, you know, there's no telling
37:01
Speaker 1: what somebody might say when they find their spouse dead
37:04
Speaker 1: on the floor. They could go off on police, That
37:06
Speaker 1: could go off on anybody. But it sounds like he
37:09
Speaker 1: very quickly goes from I think she's you think you
37:14
Speaker 1: think she's dead, Cheryl, that's the first thing that there's
37:17
Speaker 1: no doubt about that, Nancy. But like you always taught me,
37:20
Speaker 1: let's start at the beginning. The very first thing out
37:24
Speaker 1: of it mouth is we have people on the way already,
37:28
Speaker 1: so you called no one one to tell him you
37:30
Speaker 1: didn't need them. What what is that about? And then
37:34
Speaker 1: he goes into I think someone killed my wife. But
37:37
Speaker 1: he's very clear that she has multiple stab wounds. So
37:42
Speaker 1: that leads you to saint was there was she not
37:44
Speaker 1: covered in blood? I mean he could see the individual
37:46
Speaker 1: stab wounds. Was her shirt lifted up? I want to
37:49
Speaker 1: know how we knew she was stabbed, not shot or
37:52
Speaker 1: something else? He immediately goes to that. The other thing
37:56
Speaker 1: that is very disconcerting to me is in that call
37:59
Speaker 1: he say very clearly her face hit the ground. He
38:04
Speaker 1: could not know that unless he were there. Repeat that
38:08
Speaker 1: one more time, Charyl McCullum. His exact quote to the
38:12
Speaker 1: operator is her face hit the ground that you found
38:17
Speaker 1: your wife stabbed, bleeding everywhere. She may or may not
38:21
Speaker 1: have a facial injury, but you know she wasn't punched.
38:24
Speaker 1: You know, she wasn't hit with something by this assailant.
38:27
Speaker 1: You know for a fact her face hit the ground.
38:30
Speaker 1: You were there when that happened. If you know that.
38:33
Speaker 1: To Dr Daniel Bober forensic psychiatrists, he could easily say, well,
38:38
Speaker 1: I thought she was set at the back and fell
38:39
Speaker 1: face forward. That's why I said that. Yeah, Nancy, I
38:42
Speaker 1: mean his behavior is completely bizarre and very suspicious. I
38:46
Speaker 1: mean it doesn't necessarily mean we know for a fact
38:49
Speaker 1: that he was involved, but it's certainly highly suggested. Well,
38:52
Speaker 1: right now, no one has been named a person of interest,
38:55
Speaker 1: much less a suspect. This is what we do know. Uh.
38:59
Speaker 1: Sixth grade school teacher Melenda plus Kovic was found dead
39:04
Speaker 1: in her home. Her husband calls nine one one saying
39:07
Speaker 1: someone fatally stabbed her in the back. The Medical Examiner's
39:10
Speaker 1: Office has identified her as Melenda. She was a teacher
39:14
Speaker 1: at Strongsville Middle School. She was married with three children.
39:18
Speaker 1: It was just before her daughter's wedding. Now interesting, there
39:25
Speaker 1: have been four documented incidents involving very suspicious activity at
39:31
Speaker 1: their home. Take a listen to her Melenda as she
39:36
Speaker 1: is calling police about her car alarm. Listen Southsta. Yes,
39:42
Speaker 1: I'm calling from Santa Yes. Um. We just had two
39:45
Speaker 1: people to the Gina Dolt trying to pull on her
39:48
Speaker 1: back door. Okay, you see which wy they want. You know,
39:56
Speaker 1: you can look Randa, you know co Grabb the flack
40:00
Speaker 1: Laton came out and don't time to get out here.
40:02
Speaker 1: They're all gone. But we live in a common area.
40:04
Speaker 1: So your door. Yes, two bog like guys, that's how
40:09
Speaker 1: he could tell. Just got Morgan and Cheryl McCallum. Dr
40:17
Speaker 1: Daniel Bobert. Cheryl McCallum to you. So there was an
40:20
Speaker 1: instant in the past year where some teen boys were
40:25
Speaker 1: on the family trampoline in the backyard and she thought
40:28
Speaker 1: they might be smoking pot, and she said, get out
40:31
Speaker 1: of here, get out of our yard. Get off the trampoline.
40:34
Speaker 1: Was that an isolated incident, Cheryl, or can the same
40:38
Speaker 1: teens be connected to the other incidents? You know where
40:43
Speaker 1: I'm going, Sheryl. I do. And it's my understanding that
40:47
Speaker 1: no neighbor and no police ever saw any of these
40:51
Speaker 1: people they're alleging to have seen, not the two adults
40:54
Speaker 1: that attended to break in, not the teens. To my knowledge,
40:58
Speaker 1: no one has been question called arrested scene Joseph Scott Morgan,
41:03
Speaker 1: forensics expert. Let's just break it down, take it in order.
41:07
Speaker 1: This woman is stabbed dead, a sixth grade teacher at
41:11
Speaker 1: a middle school, stabbed dad in her own home when
41:16
Speaker 1: everybody else is gone. I want to find out so
41:19
Speaker 1: many things, but first I want to find out if
41:23
Speaker 1: she was alive when paramedics got there. Well we do
41:25
Speaker 1: know is that she was removed from the scene and
41:28
Speaker 1: pronounced dead at the hospital. Of course pronouncement. Did she
41:33
Speaker 1: say anything about who attacked her, nothing whatsoever. There was
41:38
Speaker 1: no utterance from her whatsoever, Nancy. She was removed from
41:42
Speaker 1: the scene, taken to the hospital, and she was pronounced
41:45
Speaker 1: dead shortly after that. Hold on, hold on, I got
41:49
Speaker 1: a lot of questions. Let me just wrap the fire here.
41:51
Speaker 1: Let's talk about these previous instances that would seemingly suggest
41:57
Speaker 1: that some type of a vandal who had been terrorizing
42:01
Speaker 1: the family broke in and managed to pull off this murder.
42:05
Speaker 1: So far, no fingerprints or suggestion has pointed to another perpetrator.
42:11
Speaker 1: Was there a forced entry, Joe Scott, there was the
42:15
Speaker 1: day in the days leading up the night of the murder.
42:19
Speaker 1: Was there a fourth entry? No, not not to the
42:21
Speaker 1: best of my knowledge, that has been indicated. Do we
42:24
Speaker 1: know if they had a burglar alarm? No? I do not.
42:27
Speaker 1: I do not know that. The police have not released
42:29
Speaker 1: that information. Simple yes or no is fine. Four different
42:33
Speaker 1: family members, to my knowledge, called nine one one in
42:36
Speaker 1: the previous ten months, including the murder victim. Okay, Now,
42:41
Speaker 1: did any of them ever get a description of the
42:45
Speaker 1: so called only the sun and what did the sun say?
42:51
Speaker 1: The sun set? I thought? He said it was a
42:53
Speaker 1: man in a hoodie and he didn't see his face.
42:55
Speaker 1: That's that's correct, And he identified. That's not a description. Well,
42:59
Speaker 1: it's aly description that they have at this point. He
43:02
Speaker 1: identified what he identified a male. He did he was
43:06
Speaker 1: non specific about race, and he stated that the individual
43:09
Speaker 1: was wearing a hoodie, and that he attempted to push
43:12
Speaker 1: the door in until his dog alerted, that is the
43:15
Speaker 1: son's dog, and the guy ran away. But he never
43:18
Speaker 1: got a look at the face. Now, is that the
43:21
Speaker 1: instance when the man was able to open door the
43:23
Speaker 1: door about three inches? Yes, yes it is mm hmm.
43:27
Speaker 1: Never saw his face. Okay, So, Cheryl McCollum, we know
43:32
Speaker 1: that the mom was one of those calls. I assume
43:35
Speaker 1: was the mom the now murder victim saying that she
43:38
Speaker 1: saw some teens in the backyard on the trampoline and
43:40
Speaker 1: she got rid of him. Is that one of the calls?
43:41
Speaker 1: Did she called police? Cheryl? My understand the daughter is
43:44
Speaker 1: the one that called the police over the kids in
43:46
Speaker 1: the backyard and the trampoline. The mother called for the
43:50
Speaker 1: son in law and said two grown, gigantic men tried
43:54
Speaker 1: to open the slide and black door. She was answering questions,
43:58
Speaker 1: now when one through the side the law. The other
44:01
Speaker 1: question that came about from that call for me is
44:04
Speaker 1: she said that the sudden law grabbed the flashlight and
44:08
Speaker 1: attempted to go outside. Now, if there's two gigantic, adult
44:11
Speaker 1: grow men trying to break into your house, you're just
44:13
Speaker 1: gonna grab a flashlight and go look for him. I mean,
44:17
Speaker 1: everything about this is odd. Something does not ring true
44:21
Speaker 1: with every number one one call, Nancy. Let me ask
44:23
Speaker 1: you this um to Scott Kimbler, Crime Stories, investigative reporter,
44:28
Speaker 1: where other people in the neighborhood experiencing the same things breakens,
44:32
Speaker 1: car vandalism and so forth apparely not Nancy. What we're
44:35
Speaker 1: learning is that this neighborhood in Strongsville, Ohio is very quiet,
44:38
Speaker 1: and the police say that they do not have a
44:41
Speaker 1: lot of activity there, but they seem to have a
44:43
Speaker 1: lot of calls to this house were in general, let's
44:45
Speaker 1: say it's it's a quiet, low crime neighborhood. To Dr
44:49
Speaker 1: Daniel Bober, what do you make of it? All the
44:53
Speaker 1: stab wounds to the wife and in very I would
44:58
Speaker 1: imagine rapid succession, And what do you make of somebody
45:04
Speaker 1: that would is it the same person that would set
45:09
Speaker 1: off a car alarm to irritate someone, but that same
45:13
Speaker 1: person go in the home and stab the mother dead.
45:17
Speaker 1: And there's a lot of moving parts here and it
45:19
Speaker 1: all seems to not add up. You know, you've got
45:21
Speaker 1: these teenagers that no one saw. Uh, You've got this
45:25
Speaker 1: description that's really essentially meaningless um and it all seems
45:29
Speaker 1: to emanate from the family. So there may have been
45:31
Speaker 1: legitimate breakings, there may have been legitimate vandalism. It could
45:35
Speaker 1: be a complete red herring, and they have no connection
45:37
Speaker 1: to the crime whatsoever. But what is what is very
45:40
Speaker 1: odd is that no one else in the neighborhood seems
45:42
Speaker 1: to be able to witness any of these things that
45:44
Speaker 1: the family is reporting. Cheryl McCullum, was she not that
45:49
Speaker 1: we know of me. That hasn't been told, but we
45:51
Speaker 1: I do need to clarify one thing for you. She
45:54
Speaker 1: was not in that hole. Yes, you're right with her
45:58
Speaker 1: who had Down syndrome and is non verbal, and there's
46:01
Speaker 1: been at least one report of a grandchild being in
46:06
Speaker 1: the home that is one year old. They were not
46:09
Speaker 1: harmed at all, but they also won't be very good
46:12
Speaker 1: at the witan to Dr Daniel Bober, forensics psychiatrist, Cheryl's
46:16
Speaker 1: absolutely correct. She had her Down syndrome son. Here's a
46:20
Speaker 1: teen and a very minor child who would break in
46:27
Speaker 1: the home and be emboldened enough to commit and murder
46:33
Speaker 1: where there's no sex assault and no robbery that I
46:37
Speaker 1: know of, and know that these two witnesses could not
46:42
Speaker 1: testify against them, either someone that was part of the
46:45
Speaker 1: family or connected to the family, or someone that you
46:47
Speaker 1: know absolutely has no conscience whatsoever. Nancy or they didn't
46:51
Speaker 1: know they were there. I mean, for all I know,
46:52
Speaker 1: they were in the basement playing video games or in
46:55
Speaker 1: their bedrooms are taking a bath. Um now. I also
47:00
Speaker 1: no Scott Kimbler on the January nine incident where there
47:04
Speaker 1: was a break in that was to the dad's car
47:07
Speaker 1: and a laptop and some cash was taken the night
47:11
Speaker 1: of the murder, Scott Kimbler, do we know of any
47:15
Speaker 1: theft from the home the night of the murder? There
47:17
Speaker 1: was not a sect from the home that the that
47:19
Speaker 1: the police have told us about. Strongsville Police Chief Mark
47:22
Speaker 1: Fender says they do not have a suspect. When asked
47:26
Speaker 1: if there was a danger to the community, he urged
47:29
Speaker 1: people to quote use reasonable care. We know that four
47:35
Speaker 1: members of the Pluskovic family have called nine one one
47:38
Speaker 1: regarding suspicious activity at their home over about the past
47:42
Speaker 1: year ten months, from missing car keys to claim that
47:46
Speaker 1: someone tried to break in to a theft from the vehicle.
47:51
Speaker 1: It all culminates in the murder of the mom with
47:58
Speaker 1: no apparent sex attack and no robbery. A sixth grade
48:02
Speaker 1: school teacher in Ohio is dead and we want answers.
48:10
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Stories, signing off, good bye friend,