Latest / The You Project / #1919 It's Not About The Nail - Bobby Cappuccio

Transcript

#1919 It's Not About The Nail - Bobby Cappuccio · The You Project

0:00
Speaker 1: Bobby Capuccio, Welcome back to the you project, my.
0:02
Speaker 2: Friend, welcome back to the self. How bad to do it?
0:05
Speaker 1: Craig going, Hey, it's going good, buddy, life is good.
0:12
Speaker 1: It sounds a bit cheesy, right, Sometimes I feel like,
0:16
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't want to sound trite, but
0:18
Speaker 1: I am very grateful. I'm very I don't know whether
0:21
Speaker 1: or not it's genetic or it's something that I've developed,
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Speaker 1: but I haven't. I do really have an ever present
0:28
Speaker 1: sense of gratitude for how good my life is. And
0:31
Speaker 1: maybe it's because I talk to a lot of people
0:33
Speaker 1: whose lives are not great, and maybe I pay attention
0:36
Speaker 1: to people around the world whose reality is nothing like mine.
0:40
Speaker 1: I feel very through no effort or work or sacrifice
0:45
Speaker 1: of my own. I feel just very privileged because I
0:49
Speaker 1: think I was born at a good time in a
0:51
Speaker 1: good country with good parents, and yeah, so that's how
0:56
Speaker 1: I feel. Do you feel that ever? I mean, I
0:58
Speaker 1: know your childhood wasn't mine, and you've had some shit,
1:01
Speaker 1: But do you feel grateful?
1:04
Speaker 2: Quite often? Quite often? I mean, you know, sometimes I'm
1:08
Speaker 2: just like in the midst of complaining some yeah, sometimes
1:12
Speaker 2: over trivial things. Yeah, you know, it's probably my enlarged amigdala,
1:18
Speaker 2: But very often I do feel quite grateful. The other
1:22
Speaker 2: day I thought, oh, you know, I'm in my house
1:25
Speaker 2: right now with my wife. We're both relatively healthy, We've
1:30
Speaker 2: got a roof over our head, We're alive, we've got
1:34
Speaker 2: a cat. I know he's relatively okay but very healthy.
1:40
Speaker 1: Has he given you toxi Plesmoses.
1:43
Speaker 2: No, no, no, we were concerned about that. If I
1:46
Speaker 2: start engaging in any inexplicably high risk behaviors, we're going
1:53
Speaker 2: to drive me down to urgent care check me out. Yeah,
1:57
Speaker 2: but yeah, he's he might be infected with it, either
2:00
Speaker 2: that or just I don't know, got bumped on the
2:03
Speaker 2: head one too many times.
2:04
Speaker 1: But I love them.
2:05
Speaker 2: I just want to start out, you know, and this
2:07
Speaker 2: is this is a very important conversation around gratitude. I
2:11
Speaker 2: just want to start out recanting a statement that I
2:15
Speaker 2: made that was highly inaccurate on I think our last
2:18
Speaker 2: podcast or the one before that. I had just got
2:21
Speaker 2: back from Australia. And I'm not trying to blame this
2:24
Speaker 2: on jet lag. Actually, yes, that's exactly what I'm trying
2:27
Speaker 2: to do. I'm trying to blame this on jet Lag
2:30
Speaker 2: and I had said that there were two hemispheres and
2:33
Speaker 2: they were split from east to west. But there's actually
2:36
Speaker 2: an eastern and western hemisphere. Like, how did I not?
2:39
Speaker 2: How did that not come to mind? It split right
2:42
Speaker 2: down Greenwich in England. Oh really Yeah, Like seventy percent
2:49
Speaker 2: of London is in one hemisphere, the other bits are
2:53
Speaker 2: in another hemisphere. I didn't know my hemisphere. It's literally
2:57
Speaker 2: the center of the world.
3:00
Speaker 1: When you start talking about two hemispheres, I thought you're
3:02
Speaker 1: talking about the brain for a moment, which is what
3:04
Speaker 1: we talk about way more than the world now.
3:07
Speaker 2: But this time we were talking about global hemispheres and
3:09
Speaker 2: we said it was north and south divided into two.
3:13
Speaker 2: But it's literally four hemispheres. So take everything I say
3:18
Speaker 2: with a grain of salt, because I'm a couple of
3:21
Speaker 2: the hemisphere.
3:22
Speaker 1: Short, Why do we always talk about the northern hemisphere
3:25
Speaker 1: the southern hemisphere, but never eastern norwestern? If that is
3:28
Speaker 1: the case.
3:30
Speaker 2: I know, it's like I think it's I think it's
3:32
Speaker 2: just like a bad pure team. Whoever the marketing team
3:36
Speaker 2: is behind the northern and southern hemispheres. I think they're
3:40
Speaker 2: they're crushing it. Where the eastern and Western hemisphere, they
3:43
Speaker 2: need to think about making some organizational changes.
3:48
Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad you've cleared that up, because all of
3:53
Speaker 1: our listeners will sleep better tonight knowing that and Northwestern
3:58
Speaker 1: very great conversation started to Oh, dear, I was listening
4:05
Speaker 1: to this thing the other day. Two dudes talk and
4:08
Speaker 1: I can't remember they're both pretty educated, but one was
4:10
Speaker 1: talking about the fact that when we get you know,
4:16
Speaker 1: like when we've got lots of crap going on, lots
4:18
Speaker 1: of problems, lots of challenges, and you know, we're not
4:21
Speaker 1: having a great time, and all we want is we
4:24
Speaker 1: want the problems to be resolved, things to be fixed,
4:26
Speaker 1: life to be better, you know, all that stuff. And
4:30
Speaker 1: then he either he'd done some research or he's talking
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Speaker 1: about some research where when people get to the point
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Speaker 1: where now they have far less problems. So I don't know,
4:39
Speaker 1: let's just pretend they've got a quarter of the problems.
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Speaker 1: So instead of having twelve problems, they've now got three.
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Speaker 1: But what they do is they just self regulate in
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Speaker 1: a bad way so that those three problems caused them
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Speaker 1: as much stress and trauma as the twelve that they
4:54
Speaker 1: used to have. And so even the fact that that
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Speaker 1: you know, practically they're life is better. Experientially, it's just
5:03
Speaker 1: as shit because they kind of self regulate in a
5:06
Speaker 1: bad way to find something to be miserable about.
5:12
Speaker 2: That's interesting. Durkheim said the same thing on a societal level,
5:16
Speaker 2: that if a society arrives at a point where it
5:18
Speaker 2: has resolved many of its existential problems, it will go
5:22
Speaker 2: ahead and create them. Will overreact to the slightest provocation,
5:27
Speaker 2: Like you know, the supermarket used to have four brands
5:30
Speaker 2: of milk and now they're down to three, and this
5:33
Speaker 2: is completely unacceptable, and of course Karen's going to want
5:36
Speaker 2: to speak to the manager.
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Speaker 1: Can you not mention Karen? I feel like poor Karen
5:41
Speaker 1: gets a hard time.
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Speaker 2: It isn't you know. It's been a rough few years
5:44
Speaker 2: for Karen's everywhere. I apologize in my sessions. I don't
5:48
Speaker 2: know how I landed on this right Well, you.
5:52
Speaker 1: And a few million others, Poor Karen.
5:55
Speaker 2: Karen thing I'm just repeating because somebody identified that a
5:59
Speaker 2: woman named Karen there was the perfect archetype. They imagined
6:02
Speaker 2: a woman or someone they know named Karen, and that's
6:05
Speaker 2: how it came to be. But for me, it's Jill.
6:08
Speaker 2: Whenever I'm doing a workshop, the person in the office
6:11
Speaker 2: who is an absolute nightmare is Jill. And I always
6:14
Speaker 2: ask at some point anybody in the audience just happens
6:18
Speaker 2: to be named Jill, And every so often somebody very
6:21
Speaker 2: sheepishly will raise their hand, like after I've completely assassinated
6:27
Speaker 2: their character, and I have to go to Jill. Sorry,
6:30
Speaker 2: clearly we're not talking about you. It's that other Jill,
6:35
Speaker 2: but yeah, you just I think we need a name
6:37
Speaker 2: we didn't.
6:37
Speaker 1: I tend to use Brian because I think I feel
6:40
Speaker 1: like it's safer to use a dude than a fema
6:43
Speaker 1: a lady, because just I feel it's safer. But then
6:45
Speaker 1: it's not really safe to use. But one of the
6:48
Speaker 1: things that people like, I put up a post a
6:53
Speaker 1: week ago and it says, the best predictor of future
6:55
Speaker 1: behavior is past behavior, which is broadly speaking true. Right,
6:59
Speaker 1: It's not it's not guaranteed, but it's pretty good predictor.
7:03
Speaker 1: And then I wrote, you may or may not have
7:04
Speaker 1: read it. So if Brian was a C word the
7:09
Speaker 1: last four hundred times, he'll probably be a C word today, right, So,
7:14
Speaker 1: and then all these people sent me a message and
7:16
Speaker 1: go my brother's Brian. He's great I and I'm like,
7:21
Speaker 1: you know, this is not real, and you know, there's
7:23
Speaker 1: not really a Brian. This is me just telling a story.
7:27
Speaker 1: But it's like people were coming to the defense of
7:29
Speaker 1: other people called Brian. I'm like, well, I wasn't saying
7:33
Speaker 1: that this behavior or this kind of personality is representative
7:37
Speaker 1: of people called Brian.
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Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, it's an example. It's not like every Brian. Now,
7:44
Speaker 2: if your name happens to be Chad.
7:47
Speaker 1: Well, then definitely that's all Chads. Yeah, of course, of
7:50
Speaker 1: course that goes without saying no. But it's it's funny that,
7:54
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to get myself in trouble,
7:56
Speaker 1: but I feel like people actually proacts. Look, fuck, they
8:01
Speaker 1: look for reasons to be offended, and if there's not one,
8:05
Speaker 1: obviously this is a fictitious character. And I'm not talking
8:09
Speaker 1: about people broadly speaking who have that name. No, my
8:14
Speaker 1: brother's names and I want you to know he's one
8:17
Speaker 1: of the nicest people. And I'm like, I'm sure he is,
8:22
Speaker 1: and I don't know him, so clearly this wasn't about him,
8:26
Speaker 1: but you know, we sold your on.
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Speaker 2: Yeah. I can't even dive into the topic because I will,
8:31
Speaker 2: without question, get myself into trouble. Me and you doing
8:34
Speaker 2: a podcast episode and trying not to get ourselves in trouble.
8:37
Speaker 2: So yeah, well, thank you for attending another episode of
8:41
Speaker 2: the You Project and the self help Antido. Might as
8:44
Speaker 2: well wrap it up right here.
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Speaker 1: You're telling me before we went live that without throwing
8:48
Speaker 1: you under the bus, but you'd been dealing with a
8:50
Speaker 1: few challenging things today and a few you know, a
8:53
Speaker 1: bit of stress going on. What's your kind of You're
8:58
Speaker 1: in a leadership position, You're a coach or a teacher.
9:00
Speaker 1: You kind of manage individuals, lead people, all that stuff,
9:04
Speaker 1: well more in a leadership capacity, I guess than a
9:07
Speaker 1: management role per se. But how do you approach? And
9:11
Speaker 1: I know there's no three step plan or generic kind
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Speaker 1: of protocol, but when you're around people that are let's
9:18
Speaker 1: just call it what it is, metaphorically losing their shit
9:21
Speaker 1: for a good reason or not a good reason, doesn't matter.
9:25
Speaker 1: What do you do? Like, how do you what are
9:29
Speaker 1: some of the things that you do? Because I feel
9:31
Speaker 1: like more and more of us are around people at
9:34
Speaker 1: the moment who are struggling, and just again underlining no
9:38
Speaker 1: three step plan, we get it, but how do you
9:41
Speaker 1: approach it? Man?
9:43
Speaker 2: This came up in a seminar I was giving yesterday.
9:46
Speaker 2: Actually a question came up where I'm like, ooh, that's
9:49
Speaker 2: I think that's above my pea greed. But there are
9:51
Speaker 2: a lot of questions along these lines. And it came
9:54
Speaker 2: up with because very often we'll experience, especially when we
10:03
Speaker 2: really care about the person and we're invested, we won't
10:07
Speaker 2: just experience empathy, but will experience emotional contagion. Well, will
10:12
Speaker 2: become overwhelmed in that situation, or somebody says something that
10:19
Speaker 2: triggers an unresolved issue in our life that we might
10:23
Speaker 2: not even realize is unresolved, and we experience what's called
10:26
Speaker 2: VI carriage trauma, and that in both of those scenarios,
10:33
Speaker 2: and I was kind of doing this a little bit
10:36
Speaker 2: with my wife to be really candid, you get into
10:40
Speaker 2: a position where you're no longer as readily able to
10:45
Speaker 2: act compassionately because empathy is good. Because when you have
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Speaker 2: empathy and you can project yourself into the situation, the
10:53
Speaker 2: thoughts and behaviors, the feelings of another human being, you're
10:57
Speaker 2: more motivated to act on their behalf to help lessen
11:01
Speaker 2: their suffering. To a point that you can cross that
11:04
Speaker 2: threshold easily, where I've become so consumed with their situation
11:10
Speaker 2: that I've crossed the line into sympathy. I'm no longer
11:13
Speaker 2: feeling with them, I'm feeling for them, and I'm more
11:16
Speaker 2: acutely aware of my own emotional impact listening to their story.
11:22
Speaker 2: So the first thing is grounding, like if I know
11:27
Speaker 2: that if first of all, do you know you're going
11:31
Speaker 2: to go into a high stakes conversation or do you
11:35
Speaker 2: not know you're gonna go into a high stakes conversation?
11:37
Speaker 2: It's just the peers in the national natural flow of
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Speaker 2: the dialogue. I try to find grounding, like yeah, feet
11:46
Speaker 2: flat on the floor, Like what am I feeling? An attack?
11:51
Speaker 2: Highle way? Second is inter reception. What is the physical sensation?
12:00
Speaker 2: Because before you know exactly what you're feeling, you identify
12:06
Speaker 2: that something has physiologically changed, and your experience a sensation
12:11
Speaker 2: that's coupled with elevated emotional arousal. So where is that
12:15
Speaker 2: in my body? I instantly start to go look inside.
12:19
Speaker 2: Is it a constriction? Is it like a tensing sensation?
12:24
Speaker 2: Where is it? Is it in my chest? Is in
12:26
Speaker 2: my jaw? I try to I lean into that a
12:29
Speaker 2: little bit, So as I'm talking to them, I'll go
12:32
Speaker 2: into that sensation. If I feel it's happening in my chest,
12:35
Speaker 2: I'll tighten it further. So if it's at a level six,
12:38
Speaker 2: I'll take it up to a level eight and then
12:40
Speaker 2: just relax it, like let go of that tension. Second
12:44
Speaker 2: thing is I'll start to be mindful, but not mindful
12:48
Speaker 2: in terms of what's going on with me what's going
12:50
Speaker 2: on with them. I'll deepen the pace or the degree
12:55
Speaker 2: at which I listen, and I'm not necessarily talking about words.
12:59
Speaker 2: I'm talking about nonverbal like what what's their voice inflection?
13:05
Speaker 2: Where is their strain and their voice? Is it on
13:07
Speaker 2: a certain word? Is there a change in the spatial
13:12
Speaker 2: relationship between me and this person? Do they disengage that,
13:15
Speaker 2: do they disassociate, lean back, or do they lean forward
13:19
Speaker 2: and decrease the level of space in between us. By
13:23
Speaker 2: doing that, I'm not only more tuned to what's happening
13:26
Speaker 2: with them, but I'm focusing intentionally on what's happening in
13:33
Speaker 2: the moment, moment by moment, So I'm helping to utilize
13:37
Speaker 2: mindfulness strategies to create engagement and self regulation in myself.
13:44
Speaker 2: That's really useful.
13:46
Speaker 1: So a couple of things out of that. So, I mean,
13:50
Speaker 1: there's the stuff that people are telling us when they're
13:52
Speaker 1: not talking, which is what you're talking about, right, So
13:55
Speaker 1: what is he saying? What is she saying that they're
13:57
Speaker 1: not saying. There's that, But then there's there's what's in
14:02
Speaker 1: front of us, what we see, you know, their physiology,
14:06
Speaker 1: their body language, their microexpressions there, you know, and the
14:10
Speaker 1: other stuff that's less visible, you know, like the cadence
14:12
Speaker 1: and the you know whatever, the timing and all of
14:15
Speaker 1: those things. But then there's our ability to be able
14:19
Speaker 1: to accurately interpret that, because seeing one thing is something.
14:25
Speaker 1: Knowing what that accurately represents, you know, that's another thing.
14:30
Speaker 1: Like because it's all well and good to go, Like,
14:32
Speaker 1: I've looked at some people and gone, they fucking hate me,
14:35
Speaker 1: And they don't hate me, they love me. They're just intrigued.
14:39
Speaker 1: But their faces going, their faces go, and you're a prick.
14:43
Speaker 1: But that's I'm like, oh, like you and I have
14:45
Speaker 1: spoken about in audiences where we think somebody hates us
14:48
Speaker 1: and we find out later no, they were just really engrossed.
14:52
Speaker 2: Let's unpack that for a bit because you're right, and
14:55
Speaker 2: I'm not doing this to accurately interpret what's happening with them.
15:00
Speaker 2: I'm doing this to stay anchored to them, to pay
15:04
Speaker 2: attention to them, and not kind of leave them as
15:08
Speaker 2: I lose myself in my own emotional reaction to their
15:12
Speaker 2: situation or their or their experiential state. So I'm kind
15:17
Speaker 2: of anchoring myself to this. I'm doing it from care,
15:21
Speaker 2: which you know Stephen Porgius talks about that facilitates a
15:25
Speaker 2: polyvagal response where we stimulate the eventual nerve branch of
15:31
Speaker 2: the vagus nerve.
15:32
Speaker 1: Okay, I'd dumb that down force we are.
15:36
Speaker 2: We are engaging our nervous system in a way that
15:39
Speaker 2: is supporting a parasympathetic state rest and digest. We're moving
15:45
Speaker 2: into a greater state of relaxation. I need to stay
15:48
Speaker 2: connected to that person, but simultaneously stay connected to myself
15:54
Speaker 2: in the moment, so my level of arousal does not
15:58
Speaker 2: elevate to the point where one like I'm in a
16:02
Speaker 2: very precarious situation, or two I'm completely useless for this
16:07
Speaker 2: individual another. So I'm just concentrating on am I I'll
16:13
Speaker 2: just exhale for a greater duration than I'm inhaling that
16:18
Speaker 2: could be That could be really useful. And if if
16:24
Speaker 2: you're in a situation with someone where you just can't
16:29
Speaker 2: right and it's not where it would be completely inappropriate
16:33
Speaker 2: to end the conversation. It's not like this is a
16:37
Speaker 2: sick patient and you're a doctor or you're a therapist,
16:40
Speaker 2: then they're in crisis. You could also say, hey, you
16:45
Speaker 2: know what, be vulnerable. This is very important to me
16:49
Speaker 2: what you're saying. I'm quite invested in this. At the
16:55
Speaker 2: same time, i deeply care about you as a person,
17:00
Speaker 2: and I'm noticing that I'm having a reaction right now
17:05
Speaker 2: where I don't feel I'm being as present as I
17:08
Speaker 2: can be with you. Can we take a break? Can?
17:12
Speaker 2: Because I want to be able to give this the
17:15
Speaker 2: attention that it deserves and bring all of myself to
17:18
Speaker 2: this conversation. So when you voice that you're not only
17:22
Speaker 2: releasing oxytocin because of that relationship, which there's evidence that
17:27
Speaker 2: that could kind of mitigate the cortisol levels in your
17:33
Speaker 2: body at the moment, but you're also decreasing the intensity
17:39
Speaker 2: that those emotions have over you. It's what doctor Bernie
17:43
Speaker 2: Siegel coined, name it to tame it, So you're being
17:47
Speaker 2: vulnerable with them, you're being quite present and authentic with them,
17:52
Speaker 2: and you're also engaging through that vulnerability in self regulatory practices.
17:59
Speaker 2: So that kind of helps. Yeah, that's answering. Am I
18:05
Speaker 2: answering your question? I speak?
18:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, it's good. I mean, like, we probably don't
18:10
Speaker 1: need to say it again, but we'll say it again. Hey, everyone,
18:12
Speaker 1: this is not advice. This is two blokes talking about
18:14
Speaker 1: human behavior. And both Bobby and I are always in
18:17
Speaker 1: front of people, either one on one or with groups,
18:19
Speaker 1: and this is just something that we navigate a lot.
18:22
Speaker 1: I don't think either of us do it perfectly, probably
18:24
Speaker 1: never will, but I like to talk. You know, you
18:28
Speaker 1: do what I do. I do what you do slightly different,
18:30
Speaker 1: but there's a lot more similarity than dissimilarity. So I'm
18:34
Speaker 1: genuinely curious about your perspective and your kind of operating
18:40
Speaker 1: system in a similar place to mine. My next question
18:43
Speaker 1: is how how do you figure out how much to
18:52
Speaker 1: help or intervene or And the reason I say that
18:57
Speaker 1: is like I literally coached someone this morning and they
19:03
Speaker 1: asked me a question and they weren't really looking for
19:06
Speaker 1: an answer. They were looking for endorsement, and I went quite,
19:11
Speaker 1: not brutally, but quite, you know, I go, you don't
19:14
Speaker 1: need to ask me that that's a dumb question, because
19:16
Speaker 1: you know, and they went yeah, I know. I went, okay, good,
19:21
Speaker 1: and they weren't hurt, they weren't upset. But I just
19:24
Speaker 1: feel like there's a point where helping people becomes unhelpful
19:30
Speaker 1: because we still like, we want to support people, love people,
19:33
Speaker 1: care for people, but we don't want to become enighblers.
19:37
Speaker 1: So now they can't do anything unless we're around. They
19:41
Speaker 1: have no resilience, they can't perform under pressure, which is
19:45
Speaker 1: where our conversation started. So what's the line where do
19:50
Speaker 1: you like so you're.
19:53
Speaker 2: Talking about a coaching bast situation. Yeah, I mean like
19:56
Speaker 2: you're a client.
19:58
Speaker 1: One of the things I used to say to my clients,
20:00
Speaker 1: and I meant this and this is a very bad
20:02
Speaker 1: business strategy, but it aligned with my ethics. I would
20:07
Speaker 1: say to my clients, my job is to teach you
20:10
Speaker 1: as much as I can, as quickly as I can,
20:12
Speaker 1: to get you up to speed, to help you get
20:14
Speaker 1: in the best shape that you can in the time
20:16
Speaker 1: that we have without you being injured, To create an
20:18
Speaker 1: experience that you enjoy and then for me to get
20:21
Speaker 1: out of the way. My job is to make myself redundant, right,
20:26
Speaker 1: because I don't want you to be dependent on me,
20:28
Speaker 1: because that's great for my ego and my bottom line,
20:30
Speaker 1: but it's shitited for you. I want you to become
20:33
Speaker 1: the weapon. I want you to become empowered. I want
20:37
Speaker 1: you to be resilient. I want you to understand your body.
20:39
Speaker 1: I want you to be able to be the calm
20:41
Speaker 1: and the chaos. Right. And that's literally or a version
20:44
Speaker 1: of that, is what I would say to people. And
20:48
Speaker 1: I feel like there's a real juggling act and emotional
20:51
Speaker 1: and sociological juggling act sometimes when you're in front of
20:54
Speaker 1: people to not do the work for them and to
20:58
Speaker 1: not tell them that it's all okay when it actually isn't.
21:02
Speaker 2: I agree with you. I mean, in certain situations, you're
21:06
Speaker 2: not giving a keynote or a seminar, you're given a workshop. Well,
21:09
Speaker 2: people are kind of coming there to be told what
21:11
Speaker 2: to do. Here's step number one. Here step if you
21:14
Speaker 2: admit that you know it's kind of you know why
21:17
Speaker 2: they bought the ticket. So the context of the situation
21:21
Speaker 2: speaks to what what the boundaries are there in a
21:25
Speaker 2: coaching based conversations, whether I'm doing a group coaching session
21:30
Speaker 2: with a group of executives or whether I'm coaching one
21:34
Speaker 2: on one.
21:36
Speaker 1: Can I interrupt for one sec? Sorry to be a prick.
21:40
Speaker 1: Most of our listeners are not coaches, So can we
21:42
Speaker 1: fuck off that as a coach? Can we just go
21:44
Speaker 1: as a person talking as a person? So just it
21:48
Speaker 1: could be a friend, it could be a mum, not
21:51
Speaker 1: a client, just another human that you know, And like,
21:56
Speaker 1: we don't need to be psychologists or coaches to be
21:58
Speaker 1: able to have meaning for conversations with people about So
22:02
Speaker 1: let's just if we can make than you like, let's
22:06
Speaker 1: make it more because yeah, we're not talking to coaches
22:08
Speaker 1: and sichs. We're talking to you know, just our regular
22:11
Speaker 1: listener who wants to apply this some Yeah, just as
22:16
Speaker 1: relative to the average punter as possible.
22:20
Speaker 2: For me. Is there an imminent threat? So somebody tells
22:26
Speaker 2: me that they're thinking of hurting themselves, right, or thinking
22:32
Speaker 2: about hurting someone else, or they've they've done something that
22:38
Speaker 2: is highly injurious, you know, So you're you're you're talking
22:42
Speaker 2: to your nephew and they just revealed that they had
22:46
Speaker 2: stolen from your brother. Uh. Yeah, those are things where
22:51
Speaker 2: I'm going to intervene a lot of the time because
22:54
Speaker 2: someone's welfare is at stake.
22:56
Speaker 1: Yeah.
22:56
Speaker 2: My take on it is whenever you become the solution
23:01
Speaker 2: for here's what you need to do, Yeah, you're really
23:04
Speaker 2: screwing people up. Because one, there's there's readiness. Just because
23:09
Speaker 2: somebody's talking to you about something or asking a question,
23:11
Speaker 2: does it mean that they are absolutely ready? And when
23:15
Speaker 2: you push readiness people actually they experience recidivism. They relapse
23:24
Speaker 2: into lower levels of readiness and preparation for change. The
23:29
Speaker 2: second thing is like, let's say they go out and
23:31
Speaker 2: they do what you tell them to do and it
23:33
Speaker 2: doesn't work. Now what. Or let's say they go out
23:38
Speaker 2: and they do exactly what you told them to do
23:40
Speaker 2: and it does work.
23:41
Speaker 1: Now what.
23:43
Speaker 2: They didn't increase in capacity that was your recommendation. They
23:48
Speaker 2: didn't increase in self efficacy and competent confidence. You did that.
23:53
Speaker 2: So I'm really reluctant to go out and give advice
23:57
Speaker 2: because it's not often followed. Sometimes it's more harmful than
24:02
Speaker 2: it is helpful. A lot of times, when somebody say,
24:04
Speaker 2: say I want to ask you a question, what they're
24:07
Speaker 2: really saying is I want to talk things out in
24:09
Speaker 2: my head so I can get a little bit greater
24:11
Speaker 2: clarity around where I am at the moment. So you
24:16
Speaker 2: steal efficacy, you steal confidence. You also steal agency because
24:20
Speaker 2: they're not going out there and making mistakes and going, jeez,
24:23
Speaker 2: what what happened there? You know, what did I learn
24:26
Speaker 2: from that? What did I learn from what went well?
24:28
Speaker 2: What did I learn from what I was kind of
24:30
Speaker 2: hoping or I thought would go well but it didn't.
24:33
Speaker 2: That's interesting. So I think guiding people through reflections and
24:38
Speaker 2: open curiosity and inquiry is far more effective than Okay,
24:44
Speaker 2: here's what I would do if I was in your situation.
24:47
Speaker 2: But you're not in their situation, and you are if
24:50
Speaker 2: you haven't noticed, not in fact them they even look different,
24:54
Speaker 2: they might have different hair color, they might be different
24:57
Speaker 2: height than you. All this, all this kind of weird
24:59
Speaker 2: shit shows up up when you pay attention to that stuff.
25:02
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And also that old theory of mind chestnut.
25:06
Speaker 1: You know, we're in the same conversation but not the
25:09
Speaker 1: same experience, you know, and trying to understand, like right now,
25:14
Speaker 1: what is their version of what's going on at this
25:17
Speaker 1: table because it isn't my version. Yeah, you know, and
25:20
Speaker 1: I want to circle back. Could you just unpack a
25:23
Speaker 1: little bit, because it's quite a distinction and it's not
25:27
Speaker 1: something I've thought about a lot, and I feel like
25:30
Speaker 1: I can learn just unpack sympathy versus empathy and just
25:35
Speaker 1: relate it to you know, a situation where someone.
25:39
Speaker 2: Okay, so empathy is walking alongside of someone I am
25:45
Speaker 2: experiencing this with you.
25:48
Speaker 1: Yeah.
25:48
Speaker 2: Where sympathy is I feel for you, but not with you.
25:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, right?
25:57
Speaker 2: Where where if somebody says, okay, I broke I broke
26:08
Speaker 2: up with someone, or someone just broke up with me, yeah,
26:11
Speaker 2: and they're talking about, you know, how they feel, and
26:14
Speaker 2: it's like you reflect back. Wow, that that rejection. It's
26:21
Speaker 2: so isolating, you know, it's like you you gave your
26:26
Speaker 2: whole self to someone, you were so open, Yeah, and
26:30
Speaker 2: it feels like they threw that away. If it feels
26:32
Speaker 2: like you've been thrown away, Yeah, it's devastating. It's just
26:39
Speaker 2: you know, all you all you're experiencing right now is
26:43
Speaker 2: your pain that is sitting in it with someone. Yeah, sympathy.
26:50
Speaker 2: I'm more focused about how this conversation is making me
26:53
Speaker 2: feel it's like, oh my god, I remember when I
26:57
Speaker 2: was broken up with It was the worst day of
26:59
Speaker 2: my life. I thought she was the one, and I'm
27:04
Speaker 2: just trying to manage the situation because my feelings are overwhelming.
27:10
Speaker 2: It's like, oh, Craig, you know you're a good looking guy.
27:14
Speaker 2: What are you talking about. It's like, she wasn't the first,
27:16
Speaker 2: She's not going to be the last, and you know,
27:18
Speaker 2: I start solving your problem for you. That's I mean,
27:22
Speaker 2: it's fresh, it's raw. It might not be fresh maybe
27:24
Speaker 2: like this happened two months ago, but it really sucks
27:27
Speaker 2: still for this individual. They don't need your autobiography and
27:30
Speaker 2: they don't need your solution for their life. It's kind
27:34
Speaker 2: of it's kind of offensive too, because you know, empathy
27:39
Speaker 2: speaks from the place of I am here with you
27:42
Speaker 2: in the pain and discomfort, where sympathy is like, you,
27:47
Speaker 2: poor bastard, you're either incapable or unwilling to change your situation.
27:54
Speaker 2: It's it's really it's a demeaning way of looking at
27:59
Speaker 2: so disguised as something altruistic. Sympathy kind of sucks.
28:07
Speaker 3: Wow, okay, okay, you know, like with the whole yeah,
28:13
Speaker 3: all right, yeah, yeah, I think we spoke about this
28:18
Speaker 3: a week or two ago, that that video It's not.
28:21
Speaker 1: About the nail. Do you remember that?
28:25
Speaker 2: Yep?
28:26
Speaker 1: You know where that?
28:26
Speaker 2: Oh wait, that was that us? Because I talk about
28:28
Speaker 2: that all the time.
28:30
Speaker 1: I don't know if well i've spoken about that.
28:32
Speaker 2: I know exactly what you're talking about.
28:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we won't ruin it for you, and we
28:37
Speaker 1: have spoken it probably once or twice. I've definitely spoken
28:40
Speaker 1: about a couple of times over the two thousand episodes.
28:42
Speaker 1: But yeah, if you want to go and see something
28:45
Speaker 1: which is hilarious but also insightful, it's a video on
28:50
Speaker 1: YouTube called It's Not about the Nail but it kind
28:52
Speaker 1: of so. So to that point, without giving the video away,
28:59
Speaker 1: do you think that's like trying to fix things for
29:03
Speaker 1: other people? What? What is that? Where does that come in?
29:08
Speaker 2: Like?
29:08
Speaker 1: Is that ever helpful? Is that? Is that something that
29:12
Speaker 1: we should never do?
29:15
Speaker 2: Very rarely? I think if you're at the if somebody
29:17
Speaker 2: comes to the point where they acknowledge as well, it's
29:21
Speaker 2: evident not just to you but to them that they
29:25
Speaker 2: have reached the ends of their resources, right yeah, or
29:30
Speaker 2: the end of their knowledge, it might be appropriate to
29:34
Speaker 2: respectfully say, you know, Craig, I'm I think I'm hearing this.
29:42
Speaker 2: I think you're wanting this, and this is kind of
29:44
Speaker 2: a barrier. You know, do I have permission to like
29:49
Speaker 2: maybe share something with you or how would you feel?
29:51
Speaker 2: Is it okay if I share something with you that
29:55
Speaker 2: is directive, but it might it may be helpful, Yeah,
29:58
Speaker 2: because I think that's a respectful way of saying no,
30:01
Speaker 2: it's not this hierarchal relationship where I possess something that
30:05
Speaker 2: you need and off. If only you thought like me,
30:08
Speaker 2: knew what I knew, saw the world the way I
30:11
Speaker 2: saw the world, did what I did, you'd be fixed.
30:14
Speaker 2: That's kind of that's a little bit fucked up.
30:16
Speaker 1: First of all, that's pretty among other things.
30:19
Speaker 2: If anybody does make a change, it's not sustainable. So
30:22
Speaker 2: who we're really doing that for? But if I come
30:25
Speaker 2: to you respectfully and I frame it like that, person
30:29
Speaker 2: might go now, you know, I don't know if I'm
30:31
Speaker 2: ready for that, or they might go, oh yeah, go ahead.
30:34
Speaker 2: And I always make it clear this might not really
30:40
Speaker 2: be relevant to you. You know, this might not fit
30:43
Speaker 2: your situation or you know what it might It might
30:46
Speaker 2: be the exact thing you're looking for, but not right now,
30:50
Speaker 2: I don't hold any expectation that you're going to do
30:52
Speaker 2: anything with this. So what you're doing is saying I
30:55
Speaker 2: respect your autonomy.
30:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, in a way, you think this is what
31:00
Speaker 1: we do every episode, Like we share thoughts and ideas
31:04
Speaker 1: and stories and experiences and insights.
31:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't have an expectation. Nor wouldn't we get
31:10
Speaker 2: offended if it's like I told a story about my
31:13
Speaker 2: auntie Sally. I'm making this up. I don't have an
31:16
Speaker 2: auntie Sally, and that's that's always bothered me. Actually, but
31:19
Speaker 2: my auntie Sally did something, and you know, like I
31:23
Speaker 2: think everybody should do that. And if a listener didn't
31:25
Speaker 2: go ahead and like, I don't know, get into real estate,
31:29
Speaker 2: I'd be somehow offended or slated or felt like, oh
31:32
Speaker 2: what a waste of time this episode was? It's just
31:35
Speaker 2: that would be pathological, wasn't it.
31:38
Speaker 1: Yeah? What about if we uh turn it around? Now?
31:44
Speaker 1: What about you? Like? How how how much do you
31:49
Speaker 1: want to open the door to other people about your
31:53
Speaker 1: own stuff? Or how often, if it all, do you
31:55
Speaker 1: seek advice or feedback or just a sounding board.
32:02
Speaker 2: I see sounding boards quite a lot because I have
32:04
Speaker 2: a lot of voices in my head, not meaning they're
32:08
Speaker 2: not out loud and audible.
32:09
Speaker 1: It's not yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's.
32:11
Speaker 2: Not a crisis. But we all have different versions of
32:14
Speaker 2: myself and of ourselves, and my versions talk quite a bit.
32:20
Speaker 2: So for me to sit down with somebody and talk
32:23
Speaker 2: through what I'm going through, it just helps me get clearer.
32:27
Speaker 2: And just expressing that and having somebody listen is enormously valuable.
32:33
Speaker 2: When I say to someone explicitly, what are your thoughts
32:37
Speaker 2: about this? I really want to know what their thoughts
32:40
Speaker 2: are if I say hey. As a matter of fact,
32:43
Speaker 2: I feel like I've gotten a little bit cross with
32:49
Speaker 2: people in the past when I was like, all right,
32:52
Speaker 2: tell me where I could have done better in this
32:55
Speaker 2: situation or talk to me, and they didn't and they
32:58
Speaker 2: sugarcoat it. It's like, God, I'm either not worth the discomfort,
33:04
Speaker 2: right or I was imposing upon you. You're like, shit,
33:07
Speaker 2: Bobby's got an issue he wants to talk about now.
33:10
Speaker 2: I was just kind of hoping we'd go grab a
33:12
Speaker 2: beer or you know, or maybe you didn't think that
33:16
Speaker 2: I would be able to handle it. But for whatever reason,
33:20
Speaker 2: that was important information and I didn't get it. Yeah,
33:26
Speaker 2: it's just as offensive as I didn't ask you how
33:30
Speaker 2: to fix my life and you emphatically laid out your
33:34
Speaker 2: blueprint for it. That's kind of not what I was
33:37
Speaker 2: asking for either. I think respect for the individual and
33:41
Speaker 2: understanding where they're at and being curious and open, but
33:47
Speaker 2: also kind of having a belief in that individual and
33:51
Speaker 2: you're talking to that they're were sourceful enough to figure
33:55
Speaker 2: things out. And if you're curious and you ask a
33:58
Speaker 2: question that maybe they'd never asked themselves, or you freeze
34:01
Speaker 2: it in a way where it lands differently than the
34:04
Speaker 2: ten times they've asked themselves that same question, I think
34:07
Speaker 2: that's a much more productive conversation, you know, with friends.
34:12
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, yeah, I think it's like it's tricky
34:18
Speaker 1: because like just as a sounding board or whatever. Yeah, fine,
34:23
Speaker 1: if somebody goes here my thoughts, what do you think
34:25
Speaker 1: of this? From you know, I had this experience. What's
34:28
Speaker 1: your take on that? But that's different too. I want
34:32
Speaker 1: you to give me external objective, as objective as you
34:36
Speaker 1: can be, feedback about me, don't sugarcoat it, don't tell
34:41
Speaker 1: me what I want to hear. I feel like people
34:44
Speaker 1: want that until they get it, you know, And.
34:47
Speaker 2: Oh, I think that's the case a lot of the time. Yeah,
34:49
Speaker 2: if you ask for it, be prepared for the answer.
34:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think, truthfully ninety nine percent and people
34:55
Speaker 1: will not provide that feedback because they're scared too for
34:58
Speaker 1: a range of reasons. And I don't blame them, but
35:03
Speaker 1: you know, I think, like a lot of times when
35:05
Speaker 1: people say, oh, yeah, I love feedback, what they mean
35:08
Speaker 1: is I love praise, I love accolades, I love endorsement,
35:12
Speaker 1: I love acceptance, and yeah, tell me what, tell me
35:16
Speaker 1: what you think, Beau, as long as it's what I
35:18
Speaker 1: want to hear, I mean it's and I'm not I'm
35:20
Speaker 1: no different, like I reckon, you've given me feedback over
35:24
Speaker 1: the years, which was which was definitely on the money
35:27
Speaker 1: that probably in the moment I didn't love and maybe
35:30
Speaker 1: vice versa. I'm not sure, but definitely like that's for
35:33
Speaker 1: me been. One of the challenges is to try and
35:37
Speaker 1: I guess ergo my PhD, but try and understand the
35:40
Speaker 1: Craig experience for everyone except Craig, you know, like what
35:44
Speaker 1: is it like, what does it really like being around me?
35:46
Speaker 1: What does what is this behavior or this kind of energy,
35:50
Speaker 1: like what does that show up? For up like for
35:53
Speaker 1: everyone else, and that because you know, there's that that
35:58
Speaker 1: old chestnut, the false consensus of effect where we just
36:01
Speaker 1: think that how we think is how they think, and
36:03
Speaker 1: what we see is what they see, and our intention
36:06
Speaker 1: is their experience and all of that kind of you know,
36:09
Speaker 1: very egotistical kind of thinking about reality is that my
36:14
Speaker 1: reality is theirs. But then you kind of dig deep
36:16
Speaker 1: and you go, no, the only person in the world
36:17
Speaker 1: who sees this exactly like me is me. The only
36:21
Speaker 1: person in the world remotely in my reality is me.
36:24
Speaker 1: You know, So being able to really humbly go all right,
36:30
Speaker 1: what is this like? Even just what does this look
36:33
Speaker 1: like for you?
36:36
Speaker 2: I think where that comes from a little bit. And
36:38
Speaker 2: this is on the part of both parties, the person
36:41
Speaker 2: asking and the person giving feedback. There is a very
36:45
Speaker 2: big difference between a behavior, a pattern of behaviors, and
36:50
Speaker 2: an identity. So let's say it's like, look, how come
36:54
Speaker 2: we don't how can we don't hang out anymore? And
36:57
Speaker 2: I'm just making stuff up off? Yeah, do you really
37:01
Speaker 2: want to know? Yeah? Tell me. It's like, well, I
37:07
Speaker 2: don't have a lot of time, and you're important to me.
37:10
Speaker 2: I enjoy hanging out with you, but you're constantly late,
37:13
Speaker 2: and it's become an issue if I say something like that.
37:18
Speaker 2: I did not say, because you are always inconsiderate right
37:23
Speaker 2: of people's time. You had been late a few times, right, Like,
37:28
Speaker 2: that's a fact. We were supposed to meet at seven.
37:33
Speaker 2: You consistently rock up at about you know, half past
37:37
Speaker 2: or beyond. I've tried to bring it up. You've gotten defensive.
37:42
Speaker 2: You know, there's like emotions were running hot. I do
37:45
Speaker 2: not mean that you are irresponsible, and this is who
37:48
Speaker 2: you are as a human being. And that's why I
37:49
Speaker 2: think people get like, no, I'm not like, it's not
37:52
Speaker 2: an identity criticism. Like I would trust I would trust
37:57
Speaker 2: you to like, let's say, babies for me. You know,
38:01
Speaker 2: I would trust you like I would leave three hundred
38:05
Speaker 2: dollars on the counter walk away. Totally responsible, totally trustworthy.
38:09
Speaker 2: It's in this one specific area. So separate, separate the
38:15
Speaker 2: behavior from the person. Avoid absolutes like you never listen
38:20
Speaker 2: to me. You always do this very rarely do people
38:24
Speaker 2: always or never do anything. I think that's important. Stick
38:28
Speaker 2: to what's observable and stick to the impact for you.
38:32
Speaker 2: So when this happens, here's what I here's how I feel, right, yeah,
38:37
Speaker 2: and here's kind of what I need in this relationship.
38:40
Speaker 2: And what I what i'd like to request is this.
38:45
Speaker 2: That's a much healthier type of conversation. I think is
38:49
Speaker 2: that going to eliminate that now? Because some people, You're right,
38:52
Speaker 2: what they're looking for is tell me exactly what it
38:56
Speaker 2: is that I want to hear and we've talked about,
39:00
Speaker 2: or when somebody tries to tell you what your motivation was,
39:03
Speaker 2: I think that's that is a dangerous conversation to get into.
39:08
Speaker 2: And I think if somebody gets angry, they have every
39:12
Speaker 2: right to get angry because you're suggesting that you know
39:16
Speaker 2: something about and people do this all the time. Oh
39:18
Speaker 2: will you think that?
39:20
Speaker 1: How do you know what?
39:20
Speaker 2: I don't know what I'm thinking half the time? How
39:25
Speaker 2: do you know? Oh? Well you will you feel this? What?
39:29
Speaker 2: Don't tell me how I feel? And that's different ball
39:32
Speaker 2: the way, because this came up in a workshop than
39:35
Speaker 2: reflecting how someone's feeling. If someone buyings on the table
39:40
Speaker 2: saying I can't bull, I can't believe they you know,
39:44
Speaker 2: they cancel the project, It's like, Okay, you're you're frustrated
39:49
Speaker 2: because you're not telling someone how you're feeling how they're feeling.
39:51
Speaker 2: You are reflecting an observation, you're actually empathizing. So those
39:56
Speaker 2: are two totally different things with different intentions.
40:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, oh I could do this for a lot
40:04
Speaker 1: longer than forty minutes, but today forty minutes is our time. AH.
40:08
Speaker 1: Always appreciate you, buddy. How can people find you? Of
40:12
Speaker 1: course for self help. Antidote is your podcast. Where else
40:15
Speaker 1: can people catch up with you?
40:17
Speaker 2: Find me on LinkedIn or at Robertcapuccio dot com.
40:21
Speaker 1: Perfect. Thanks buddy, love your guts.
40:23
Speaker 2: Thanks Greg,