Latest / Harvest After Sunday / Predestination: Theology Q&A
Transcript
- Harvest Media: What? After Sunday podcast. I'm Natalie and I'm your host and I'm here with Stefan Wilson, pastor of preaching and teaching. And today we're going to be discussing a theological topic, predestination. ⁓ And Stefan, is a complex topic, ⁓ sometimes challenging controversial. ⁓ I think many people they hear predestination, ⁓ they are that we're talking about salvation. ⁓ But maybe can just provide a context for us to understand this term and this theological doctrine and kind of what it entails. Yeah, when we look in scripture, the word predestined, predestination, that that term is used and it's often used in relation to salvation. And so that's why we narrow its scope to salvation. But I do think it's helpful to zoom out because scripture uses other words and other concepts are visible that Orbit this topic that are broader than pre then salvation only ⁓ Because what we're really what we're what we're really talking about when we talk about predestination is An outworking of who God is and how God works And so if we only talk about the term then we risk we risk narrowing the cons the conversation so much that we neglect The rest of the pieces that help inform it And and then and that's part of where some of the controversy comes from is because we narrow the conversation so much So if we zoom out a little bit I talked about on on Sunday when when we were in Matthew 11, I talked about God's sovereignty and Sovereignty is the fact that God is in control of all things. So sovereignty is a term of authority there's nothing outside of God's authoritative control and RC Sproul famously wrote that there isn't a rogue molecule in all of the universe. Like God's sovereign over all of it. And that's the picture that we get of God in scripture. And that seems like it would be comforting. Yes. But the implications here maybe don't always feel comforting for people. Yeah, because what is uncomfortable is then what we fear that might mean about things in our lives or things in the world. And I think that if we if we just let kind of the big picture in form, some of those fears can be calmed. ⁓ And so we have we have sovereignty that everything is under God's authoritative control. Because everything is under God's authoritative control The second term that's important is providence. We'll say something was providential Divine providence we hear those terms providence is that God orchestrates all things According to his sovereign will so because he has authoritative control over all things He then orchestrates all things to accomplish that sovereign will Okay, then we narrow it from there to election Election is a term that paul uses peter uses ⁓ it's it is a it's a theme throughout scripture and election is god's sovereign choice of who will be saved ⁓ and I think it's important to to Recognize that if we have the wrong view of how that works We will have a wrong view of of ⁓ sovereignty and Providence because a lot of times the thing when we talk about the biblical concept of election and I really want to reinforce that is a biblical concept I mean it's in Ephesians chapter 1 it is in first Peter chapter one like it is it's evident in scripture, but if we have if our view of that is well everybody starts out neutral and God elects to save some and elects to condemn some and so we think everybody starts equal and God says okay one person saved and this person I'm gonna condemn and this person I'm gonna save and this person I'm gonna condemn that is a wrong view of election The biblical view is everybody starts in the same place, justly and rightly condemned because of their own sin. And God in his kindness and mercy chooses to save some. It's not up to us who he saves. It is according to his perfect eternal sovereign decree out of the some who deserve condemnation, he chooses to show them mercy. So that is election, his divine and sovereign choice to save some. Predestination then narrows that even further. and is the concept that your life, if you are among the elect, your life will be providentially orchestrated to the place where you will believe. So yes, you will make a decision to follow Christ. You will make the choice to repent because God's sovereign decree, providentially orchestrated in your life, according to his choice to save you, Leads you to the place where faith will happen Because you were predestined to believe like all four of those terms matter and if we just say Well, let's talk about predestination and we neglect the other three terms then we start saying things like well How is that fair and I don't understand how God could do that. Well, okay, let's let's walk it back Let's walk it back and start with sovereignty then Providence then election then predestination and if we're following scriptures teaching on those things, while we might say, ⁓ that's tough for me to comprehend, what we can certainly say is, I can see how that would be the case. Can you maybe walk us through some examples of where people are uncomfortable or where there is controversy because one of those things is out of step. Like maybe I'm going, I understand God's sovereignty, you know, and then I misstep somewhere or something is out of balance. I'm not considering all four of those important things. And that that leads me to have discomfort or unbelief or anger, fear, kind of what we talked about, like what makes it controversial? So I heard a pastor preaching a while back and he was talking about salvation and he said, he said, people always want to talk about God's sovereignty when it comes to salvation. And he said, sovereignty, the definition he gave is he goes, sovereignty is that God can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants with whoever he wants. And then he said this, said, but sovereignty has nothing to do with salvation. And I just said, well, that's kind of odd to say. based on the definition that you just gave for what sovereignty is. So in that example, ⁓ that particular pastor was separating out sovereignty from the other three terms. He was making it a term unto itself that somehow functioned separately from Providence election predestination. Now we're left to say, we have to reinterpret those three terms to fit a version of salvation that is ultimately up to me. So if we take one and we separate it out, then it causes us to have to reinterpret the other three. I think the other piece that does make it uncomfortable is in the realm of human experience, and this is a completely fair statement to make, in the realm of human experience, I make choices all the time. Those choices feel really free Like I it's up to me to decide one thing or the other thing like I've made plenty of choices just today And like I talked about on Sunday, we, we very well understand the human side of the coin because that's the side of the coin that we experience and live in and see and feel. and we live in the consequences of it. ⁓ and so just like if I disconnect one of the terms, if I disconnect myself from the, from the terms, now I'm in a place to say, okay, well now I gotta, now I gotta read find all these things so that it matches my experience. And I think more than any other time in human history, we're prone. to really prioritize our human experience over the things that are said to be true because well, what I feel is, and we've talked about this on this podcast before, what I feel is certainly true, which means when I encounter a truth claim that seems to go against what I feel, well then the truth claim must be wrong and needs to be reframed to match what I feel. So, ⁓ Will say things like well because I made a free choice to believe That means that predestination is that god knew I would make that choice and so he elected me to be saved because predestination is God's knowledge of what I would do and so because of his knowledge of what I would do he then elected me unto salvation and you see in how I framed that we're actually going backwards through the terms we're not starting from sovereignty then Providence then election then predestination we're going backwards we're because of my human perspective I'm now gonna say okay then that must be what predestination means therefore now I've got a restate what election means which means now I've got to limit what providence means which means now I've got to disconnect sovereignty from all of it. Otherwise it doesn't fit the definition you gave which was his authority which is independent of our choices. That's That's right. So This is where that transcendence, eminence thing that we talk about so much on this podcast that I referenced on Sunday, like it really does matter. ⁓ It's not just like Stefan's musings of philosophical ideas. Like these concepts really do matter that ⁓ we understand God's eminence because he's transcendent and so we can see the ways that he's eminent rather than redefining his transcendence. descendants because of how we experience his eminence. And I'm thinking even because you mentioned this. So you gave us these four ⁓ essential components, his sovereignty, providence, election and predestination. But you started by saying we all initially are condemned because of our sin. So because I'm just thinking that someone could say. Given all of that, I see that and I believe it. But then how could God choose to not save some? We would be separating it from the truth that we all stood. condemned in the first place and it's because of his goodness that he even elected some. Is that a correct way of thinking about that kind of fifth element that important element? Yes, his goodness because then what we do is we'll say well because God's good those other four terms can't be true because that would mean that that wouldn't be good and I would just push back and say well that's certainly goodness from our perspective that we're now applying to God, but if we let him define goodness, then we can see how all of those things are in fact good. really there are three things that could have happened when it came to salvation because God is perfectly righteous and perfectly just and wise. ⁓ Three things could have happened. One, because of sin, he could have saved none and he would have remained perfectly just because we all are rightly accountable for our sin and the wages of sin is death. And so God, if he condemned all, would have been just in doing so. Second option, he could have saved all. If he wanted to, he could have made it possible for all to be saved and do it in a way where all will be saved. But we can see that that's not true. because scripture says that's not true scripture shows that some do die in their sins and do receive judgment and condemnation for their sin apart from faith in Christ so God did not do it that way He did not choose to not save any because he sent Jesus because of the love of God His love was made manifest how in sending his son That we might have life in his name. Jesus says in John 3 16 the most well-known Bible verse Forgots the of the world that he gave his only son that whoever believes in him might not perish But have eternal life and that word so is not so much It's not God loved the world so much that it's a Greek word that means God loved the world in this particular way. So rather than like you know with with hands going out like so much it's like a hand pointing forward. God so loved this specific way that he sent Jesus. Okay so he didn't choose to not save any. He loved the world in such a way that he sent his son Jesus that we might have life in his name. God didn't choose to save all because some do fall under condemnation and judgment apart from Christ. Third option, he could choose to save some. And that choosing to save some is in accordance with his sovereign will. You've given us a really helpful framework in several of our past conversations, ⁓ understanding what our preferences or opinions or persuasions or convictions. Where does this topic of predestination fit in one of those categories? So I'm going to caveat it a little bit. But I'll say clearly upfront, I think it falls under persuasions. I think that some act as though it is a mere preference. I think that's harmful. ⁓ because it does require you to confess certain things about God, which is going to impact your life. That's far more than just a preference. think some put it in the category of conviction. If you differ with me on this, there's a good chance you're not even saved. Okay. Because, you know, if we remember preference is we can disagree and it really doesn't affect anything. Opinion is I think there's a right way to do it. But if you do it different, that's okay. I still, I disagree. Persuasion is, I actually think you're wrong in this, but we can still have fellowship. But some conversations and some ways that we do life together are gonna be kinda awkward because we know we disagree on this. And conviction is, if we disagree, it's sinful at some level and you might not even be saved. So that's why I say it's persuasion because Depending on your view of if God elects and predestines us or if it's ultimately our decision and God responds to us, well, that's gonna impact the way that we talk about our Christian lives, the way that we view evangelism, the way that we view missions. It's gonna impact the weight that we carry for the lost in our lives. ⁓ And if I make too much of it, if I say it's a conviction, well now I'm saying that your particular view of how it is that you came to a knowledge of Christ, that that actually is the deciding factor of whether or not you can even be saved. I think that's an overstatement. So I would certainly put it in persuasion. However, this is the caveat. I do think that how we articulate it really matters and that we can articulate it in ways that cause us to say things that are actually problematic. So if I, if I articulate the doctrines of election and predestination in ways that sound like determinism or theological fatalism, which determinism is all of the events of your life are predetermined, you are actually not free in anything you do, ⁓ then that takes human responsibility totally out of the equation. Theological fatalism takes it even further and it's the idea that God has decided for you, even down to the granular level, the things that you'll do in your daily life and so you are really just like a ⁓ God-driven robot with skin on. ⁓ That makes, that's a term that one of my professors used and it just stuck with me. That makes God a God who's so disconnected from us ⁓ that much of what scripture says about him couldn't be true in terms of how he relates to us. So that's what I mean by if we if we make too much out of it we can start saying things about God that just aren't true and some of those things can certainly become Convictional issues like we go the other side and say well God doesn't elect and predestine us at all Well, I mean first of all now I have to now I really have to question your view of the authority and clarity and truthfulness of scripture because scripture talks about it but then We can paint a picture of God that he is ⁓ that he's impotent, that he is passive, that he depends on us, that we've got to make a choice for him to be able to do anything. Now we got to start questioning the nature of the promises of God, God's ability to answer prayers. But if your view of God is that he doesn't have the ability to change someone's heart against their sinful will, How could you ever pray for someone's salvation? Like how could you? How could you ever pray God open his eyes? If God needs my eyes to open before he can save me So that's that's where I think the the pole the the polar extremes can actually cause us To be talking about things that now we really should say no, that's actually a conviction We believe in a God who does relate to us. We believe in a God who does answer prayer We're really not gonna have a conversation about a God who can't answer our prayers to change something heart. But I think thinking the best of the conversation and our desire to get at the truth, would fit in persuasion. I'm so glad that we have this format now where we can dig into these things because as you're pointing out it's so important for us. They are complex. It's important for us to understand and then talk about what it means for us because it relates directly to what we actually believe, like what you said, about God's character, about the authority of Scripture and then about how we act because I think it would be ⁓ really simplified to say, well, is it predestination or free will? That's what you hear most often. Like we're not bringing in these other terms and these other concepts. And it's really just those two singular things that are kind of pitted against one another. But what I've heard you talk about throughout our entire conversation so far is really a balance between the two. One is very much true. Predestination is true. And we do have a choice. I mean, is this right? We do have free will to make choices what we do matters can you help us understand these things together I know if I'm doing the right no I think it's a great I think it's a great demonstration of the nuancing and attention trying to hold the two together so I have a old colleague who he would he would kind of hold up an imaginary rope And he would say, we have to hold tension in the rope for the rope to stay straight. And when we relax one hand, the rope drops. the tension's actually necessary to keep a straight line between the two truths. And I think it's a really helpful illustration because scripture presents, scripture does present both. If we say, if we drop the hand of human responsibility so the rope falls, we now have to confess theological fatalism. If I drop the hand of divine sovereignty so that the rope falls, we're now. required to confess libertarian free will. ⁓ both of those are foreign to scripture. I think a really important, or a really important, Part of the equation though is sin. That Adam and Eve in the garden before sin had the ability to listen to the word of the Lord or to not listen to the word of the Lord and if they would listen to his word they would have life and if they didn't listen to his word they had death. And then in choosing to take of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and therefore receiving the death that comes from not listening to the word of the Lord, then all who come after them are conceived in iniquity to quote Psalm 51. Their natural disposition is not to seek the things of God, but to seek self to then quote Romans chapter three, where he quotes the Psalmist. ⁓ that we are then dead in our trespasses and sins, that we are slaves to our sin. And so the idea of free will in the libertarian sense, that I'm truly free to do whatever I choose, is already limited. Because of my sin, I'm already limited to a broken and distorted will. And so even before following Christ, what I perceived as free If we're if we're really being blunt was just the freedom to choose whatever sin I preferred But I didn't have the freedom to choose righteousness in the most biblical sense of the term I Needed God to give me a new heart with a new will and a new nature that had a new ability to do what I previously was unable to do That's a really important part to the conversation that I think a lot of the time we we leave out because we're picking up concepts of free will from other philosophies. I think we can do a little thought experiment for a moment about just how free we are. I've done this with a few groups, so I'm going to paint a scenario for you. And I know you weren't prepared. We didn't talk about this. This exciting. This is new for you. Let's imagine we're walking past a soccer field. And you know, it's soccer season. Soccer is a big sport in the Valley. We're walking past the soccer field. The goals are set up. There's a ball left out on the field. And you decide that you want to go kick that ball into the net. What do you have to do to be able to be free to kick that ball into the net? What things have to be true for you to be free to kick that ball into the net? That's probably a better way to ask it. Like that I can just walk onto the, that I'm able to walk, that I can access the field, that I can like move my body and it will cooperate the way that I intended to. Right? mean, that no one will say you're not allowed in here. Yeah. ⁓ And that's all true. That's all true. Is there anything else? I guess. Like, gravity and things play a part? Like, where is the ball? Is it actually going to go? I'm making assumptions about if I kick it in a certain way, it will actually proceed in that direction. Yeah. So the laws of physics have to work the right way. Yeah. Yeah. So what we'd and like, that's how you went about that is exactly how I would expect anybody to go about it. It's how everybody I've ever asked that question to goes about it. Because when we're posed with a choice, we tend to focus in on the parts of the choice that have to do with us. Or the parts of the choice that have to do with the immediate environment that we are considering. But what nobody has ever, ever brought up is, well, the person that left the ball on the field had to leave it out there in the first place. That was a choice that was totally out of my control. ⁓ We had to happen to be walking past the field at that time when the ball happened to have been left out there by someone who shouldn't have left it out there. Let's say it was somebody who forgot it at the field. their actions to forget now my decision to kick it is actually dependent on previous decisions that I had nothing to do with. Our day had to go according to a specific timeline for us to be walking past that field at the time when the ball was out there. And we didn't make any of those choices considering the fact that we'd be walking past the soccer field. What about the fact that like. Your parents met my own existence and dated and got married and you right and you were born and you had this whole life where you were able to develop the coordination to even be able to kick and and you know, what about all the other Septillion decisions that have been made throughout the history of the world that right like we it starts to get silly But we start to realize The freedom that I feel I'm not as free as I feel. I actually live a very dependent existence by very nature of human life. I live a very dependent existence. I depend on the things that happened before me and I live in the consequences of them. I depend on laws of physics and biology and chemistry that I have no control over, but I operate within them. So whatever we're going to talk about that is freedom is actually lived out within a small sphere of human experience that sits within a much larger sphere of utter dependence on the things around me that then all sits within the sphere of God's sovereignty over it. And when I can just humbly admit that, then I can start to say, Okay, so I'll probably qualify what I mean by free and I'll probably qualify what I mean by choice. And if I fit it under sovereignty and providence and election and predestination that that are biblical terms, then I can start to say, okay, like there are certainly things that are too great for me to know. and what I must not do is deny those great things to prefer those very narrow things that I experience. Just what you touched on at the end has been one of the most helpful things for me personally, as I've grappled with difficult issues and doctrines. There are other ones besides Redestination 2 that are complex and challenging. And what the Lord has shown me, even in last few years, is my own pride is often what's getting in the way. My insistence that I must know completely, and I must understand and really feel good about so that I can accept. implication that I'm assuming ⁓ these things and humbling myself, which you just mentioned, and recognizing what scripture clearly says that God is God and I am not and His ways are different than mine and higher than mine and His thoughts are not my thoughts. ⁓ I think that is the best way for us to approach these things so that we can clearly see what scripture is teaching us and choose to believe it. ⁓ to submit ourselves to the truth of God's word that he's revealed to us graciously so that we can understand. But I think a topic like this, thank you for walking us through it and teaching us and ⁓ just helping us understand, because I think this topic highlights God's sovereignty that we talked about so much that he alone is creator and king and Lord, and that we must humble ourselves and submit to the truth in his word. Yeah. And thank you for joining us for the Harvest After Sunday podcast, where we help you grow into the image of Christ by applying the truths in His Word for His mission. We'll see you Sunday.