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The Courage to Start Over with Olympic Swimming Champion Natalie Coughlin · Mind Over Mountain

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Mind Over Mountain with me, Cheryl Strayed. This week,
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  Speaker 1: my guest is elite Olympian swimmer, Natalie Coughlin. We talk
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  Speaker 1: about Natalie's amazing achievement of winning 12 medals across three Olympics,
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  Speaker 1: about her struggle to attain perfection in her swimming, and
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  Speaker 1: also about what losing can teach us about winning. Let's
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: listen to our conversation. Natalie Coughlin, welcome to Mind Over Mountain.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, thank you.
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  Speaker 1: I'm so excited to talk to you. Rarely do I
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  Speaker 1: get to talk to somebody. I talk to so many champions,
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  Speaker 1: but wow, Natalie, your list is really long.
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  Speaker 3: Your list of achievements. I don't know if you've noticed that,
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  Speaker 3: but I'm going to just list a few of them here.
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  Speaker 1: For our listeners, you won 12 medals across three Olympic Games.
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  Speaker 1: You were, in 2002, the first woman in history to
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  Speaker 1: swim a 100-meter backstroke in under a minute. You were
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  Speaker 1: also the first woman to win back-to-back golds in the
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  Speaker 1: 100-meter backstroke in both Athens in 2004 and Beijing in 2008.
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  Speaker 3: You won 20 world championships. The list goes on and on.
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  Speaker 1: And as I was making this list in preparation for
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  Speaker 1: our conversation, the question that kept rising to mind for me, Natalie, was,
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  Speaker 1: you know, these are all really cool, tangible things that
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  Speaker 1: you can kind of, you have the medals, you have
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  Speaker 1: those things in the record books.
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  Speaker 3: That you've achieved. But what are some of the most.
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  Speaker 1: Meaningful achievements in your mind and heart that are maybe
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  Speaker 1: less tangible? When you look back at all that you
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  Speaker 1: accomplished as an elite swimmer and a champion swimmer, What
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  Speaker 1: means the most to you?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. The thing that jumps into
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  Speaker 2: mind immediately is representing my country at the highest level,
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  Speaker 2: and that's the Olympic Games. The times I was able
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  Speaker 2: to be on that top podium and to see the
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  Speaker 2: American flag be raised and to hear the national anthem
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  Speaker 2: and And to look up into the crowd and see
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  Speaker 2: my family, like celebrating those wins with me, it represented
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  Speaker 2: the thousands and thousands and thousands of hours that it
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  Speaker 2: took to get there and the celebration and culmination of
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  Speaker 2: it all in that one moment. Wow.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And I imagine too, there's this awareness that, that people
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  Speaker 1: around the world are watching you. You were really a
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  Speaker 1: very young woman when you became an elite swimmer, as
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  Speaker 1: one does. And I wondered if even then you had
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  Speaker 1: the consciousness of the influence you were having on the
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  Speaker 1: generation behind you, those young kids who are there. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: I'm sure you, like me, like everyone else in the
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  Speaker 1: world who had a television experience, You watch those first
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  Speaker 1: Olympics as a kid and you're like, that looks fun.
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  Speaker 1: I want to be a champion. Did you have a
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  Speaker 1: sense of the ways that you would be influential to others,
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  Speaker 1: not just swimmers, but, you know, even people in other
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  Speaker 1: sports or who weren't athletes at all, but who looked
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  Speaker 1: to you as somebody who had done just what you described,
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  Speaker 1: put in those hours?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, it.
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  Speaker 2: It occurred to me in several different ways. Like I
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  Speaker 2: similar to you, like when I was six was when
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  Speaker 2: I watched my first Olympic Games and I watched, you know,
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  Speaker 2: my heroes, Janet Evans and Matt Biondi, like win their
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  Speaker 2: gold medals at that Olympic Games. And so I recall
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  Speaker 2: being that six year old and being that 10 year old,
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  Speaker 2: like watching the Olympics and But after my first Olympics
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  Speaker 2: in Athens in 2004, I was in New York City.
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  Speaker 2: So I'm from California, clear other side of the country,
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  Speaker 2: and I'm walking in Manhattan and random people on the
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  Speaker 2: street are recognizing me. And that just blew my mind.
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  Speaker 2: And this is pre-social media. Um, like this is a
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  Speaker 2: long time ago.
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  Speaker 3: Um, and yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And it was just like, so incredible and humbling and weird, very,
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  Speaker 2: very weird, um, to be stopped, uh, in the middle
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  Speaker 2: of New York city and people say like, Hey, how, um,
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  Speaker 2: you know, how they were cheering for me in Athens and, um, And,
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  Speaker 2: you know, wanted a picture or something. And it was
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  Speaker 2: just it was incredible. But it was very strange, like
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  Speaker 2: kind of outer body feeling.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: I wonder, did you know, obviously you had seen those
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  Speaker 1: those athletes and you thought, OK, I want to be
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  Speaker 1: one of them.
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  Speaker 3: And then, of course, you've done all the work to
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  Speaker 3: become one of them.
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  Speaker 1: Did greatness and that kind of like, oh, they're recognizing
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  Speaker 1: me on the streets of New York City. Did that
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  Speaker 1: feel to you the way you imagined it would feel
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  Speaker 1: back when you were the younger version of yourself dreaming
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  Speaker 1: about it?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean, I never dreamed about the side
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  Speaker 2: effect of winning Olympic gold, you know, like people. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: the fame like that's that's a side effect. And that's
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  Speaker 2: not that's not what I strive to do. And so
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  Speaker 2: it was just like such a strange thing that I
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  Speaker 2: never really even considered. But it's something that as a
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  Speaker 2: professional athlete, I love. I grew into that role. And
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  Speaker 2: then social media started to, you know, it was birthed
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  Speaker 2: around the time that I was a professional athlete. And
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  Speaker 2: so I started to learn how things are evolving and
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  Speaker 2: how you have relationships with your fans and the people
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  Speaker 2: supporting you. And in many ways, that's so cool that
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  Speaker 2: you're able to see all the people cheering you along.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. There's like a kind of intimacy and connection that
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  Speaker 1: I think previous generations did not have, which is both,
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  Speaker 1: you know, a good thing and a bad thing at times, right?
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  Speaker 2: Yes. No, for sure. It's a double-edged sword because you
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  Speaker 2: get a lot of those criticisms so easily where before
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  Speaker 2: you could be, you know, like the ostrich with your
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  Speaker 2: head in the sand and not hearing any of it.
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  Speaker 3: They DM'd me and said they're disappointed. I know. I
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  Speaker 3: get a little bit of that, too. But I do think, too,
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  Speaker 3: you know, just.
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  Speaker 1: One of the things that I wonder if you feel this,
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  Speaker 1: for me, I'm a writer. I'm not a professional athlete.
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  Speaker 1: I'm a professional writer. But when people say, like, you
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  Speaker 1: changed my life or watching you or seeing that work
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  Speaker 1: that you put in made me feel like I can.
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  Speaker 1: And I think that that is like, I mean, that
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  Speaker 1: kind of personal connection that people have with somebody that
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  Speaker 1: they see as famous, you know, that's just... for me,
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  Speaker 1: like a really moving experience. And I'm sure that you've
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  Speaker 1: heard that a million times in your life.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I.
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  Speaker 2: Definitely have, especially, you know, I used to do occasionally
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  Speaker 2: swim clinics with young kids and, you know, they would
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  Speaker 2: have my Coghlan swim cap and wanted it signed and
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  Speaker 2: say like, oh, I want to go to the Olympics someday.
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  Speaker 2: And It's just such a full circle moment just because
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  Speaker 2: I like I distinctly remember being that kid. Like I
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  Speaker 2: remember going to Stanford swim camp, which is funny because
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  Speaker 2: I went to Cal. So, you know, Cal and Stanford
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  Speaker 2: are mortal enemies. But as a child, I went to
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  Speaker 2: Stanford swim camp.
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  Speaker 3: Against your will.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 2: And... Summer Sanders was there and I ate up every
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  Speaker 2: word that she said. And I have a picture with
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  Speaker 2: her and she was one of my idols. And so
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  Speaker 2: I took that role of, or I understood the assignment
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  Speaker 2: of being a role model. And I took that very seriously.
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  Speaker 2: And I tried to honor that as much as possible,
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  Speaker 2: just remembering so clearly that I used to be that
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  Speaker 2: kid and just how much swimming changed my life for
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  Speaker 2: the better. You know, like it helped me get a
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  Speaker 2: scholarship at University of California, Berkeley. And it allowed me
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  Speaker 2: to continue my sport beyond my college years, and it
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  Speaker 2: became my profession. And so I just feel such gratitude
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  Speaker 2: and wanted to give back to the next generation in
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  Speaker 2: a myriad of ways.
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  Speaker 3: And you've done that.
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  Speaker 1: So Take us back to the beginning of that circle.
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  Speaker 1: How old were you when you began swimming? When did
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  Speaker 1: you learn to swim and when did you fall in
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  Speaker 1: love with the water?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think I always loved the water. And
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  Speaker 2: I started swimming on a swim team when I was
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  Speaker 2: six and I really wasn't that good. You know, I
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  Speaker 2: have two young kids myself now who are both swimming.
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  Speaker 2: They're five and seven. And people always ask me, like,
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  Speaker 2: if I was good right away. And I definitely wasn't. Like,
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  Speaker 2: I was, you know, disqualified in my first race.
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  Speaker 3: Why were you disqualified?
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  Speaker 2: Because my silly coaches at the time put me in
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  Speaker 2: 25 butterfly, like, in my first race. And anyone that
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  Speaker 2: knows civilian butterfly is a little tricky, especially for the
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  Speaker 2: little guys. And so, you know, I didn't get my
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  Speaker 2: arms out of the water. And some gung-ho official, you know,
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  Speaker 2: by the books is going to DQ the kid who's
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  Speaker 2: like coming in dead last.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, my God. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: But it's fine.
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  Speaker 3: Well, we should put that on your list of achievements.
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  Speaker 3: I know.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, forget about the 12 medals across three Olympics, right?
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  Speaker 1: You know, disqualified in your first race at six.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly. And I tell kids that. And especially because little kids,
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  Speaker 2: sometimes they get so upset when they get DQ'd in
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  Speaker 2: a race. And I'm like, look, it happens to the
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  Speaker 2: best of us. It happens in my first race. It's
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  Speaker 2: happened in really big races.
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  Speaker 3: It happens.
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  Speaker 2: And you just kind of have to take your medicine and....
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  Speaker 3: Move on.
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  Speaker 2: But yeah, I wasn't great at first, but I just
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  Speaker 2: loved the water. I loved as a kid being in
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  Speaker 2: the water and imagining I'm flying. It's the closest thing
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  Speaker 2: I think we as humans can feel to flying. And
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  Speaker 2: so I just love that sensation of being in the water.
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  Speaker 2: I was always a really competitive kid and So I
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  Speaker 2: did gymnastics and I did volleyball as well. But I
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  Speaker 2: was just much better at swimming. And somewhere along the way,
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  Speaker 2: that like competitive mindset. drive and desire turned into talent. Because,
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  Speaker 2: you know, I went to practice and I worked really hard.
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  Speaker 2: And by the time I was about 13, was when
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  Speaker 2: I really show that that hard work started to really
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  Speaker 2: pay off. I made nationals for the first time that year,
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  Speaker 2: and I actually finaled at nationals. that year. Like, I
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  Speaker 2: will never forget, I was in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, and
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  Speaker 2: I was in lane one of the 200 free final.
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  Speaker 2: And I just remember the announcer, you know, you have
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  Speaker 2: to all walk out before your race. And I remember
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  Speaker 2: the announcer saying, in lane one, 13-year-old Natalie Coughlin. And
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  Speaker 2: I choked in that race and swam horribly.
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  Speaker 3: But yeah, it was really.
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  Speaker 2: From six to 10 or so, I was like a
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  Speaker 2: decent age group swimmer, like nothing spectacular. But then by
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  Speaker 2: about 13 was when I got really good at swimming.
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  Speaker 1: So at that competition, you choked in one race. and
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  Speaker 1: finaled in another.
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  Speaker 3: Is that right?
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  Speaker 2: No, I finaled in that race. And then in the final,
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  Speaker 2: I choked.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, I got it. Okay. You got to the final.
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  Speaker 3: You're like, here's my moment.
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  Speaker 2: What do you mean?
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm curious, like, what is it like, if
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  Speaker 1: you can describe for us, like, what's it like to
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  Speaker 1: swim terribly and choke in a race? And what's it
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  Speaker 1: like to swim beautifully and like dominate and be running
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  Speaker 1: on all, you know, all gears in a race?
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  Speaker 3: What's the difference?
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  Speaker 2: The beauty and kind of the tragedy of swimming is
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  Speaker 2: it's all very similar. Like the great races and the
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  Speaker 2: bad races are separated by such a small amount. Like
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  Speaker 2: we are a sport that is measured by one one
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  Speaker 2: hundredth of a second. And so the difference, you know,
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  Speaker 2: it in a race that's two minutes long, the difference
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  Speaker 2: of a second can be huge. Like that's huge. And
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  Speaker 2: so that's what I mean by choke. Like I had
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  Speaker 2: a great prelims race and I probably added like a
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  Speaker 2: second at night in the final, but that's a really
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  Speaker 2: big deal. And it's one of those things that it
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  Speaker 2: was always mind boggling to me that I swam from
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  Speaker 2: the time I was six years old to, at the
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  Speaker 2: highest level, 34 years old. And I would swim 100 back.
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  Speaker 2: And how am I so close to the exact same
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  Speaker 2: time for so many years? And you're working endless hours
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  Speaker 2: just to chip away, to chip away, and to maybe
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  Speaker 2: shave a tenth off or two tenths off. That's kind
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  Speaker 2: of the brutal thing about swimming, but it's also kind
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  Speaker 2: of the beauty, like perfection is unattainable, but you just
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  Speaker 2: keep trying.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it really is a fascinating thing to me as
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  Speaker 1: just somebody watching the sport, you know, because I'm kind
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  Speaker 1: of like, oh, my gosh, it's not that they should
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  Speaker 1: all just say they finished. They all did a good job,
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  Speaker 1: you know, because they all finished within like a second.
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  Speaker 1: But like you say, it's in less than a second
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  Speaker 1: is the difference between gold and heartbreak. And it really,
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  Speaker 1: the mechanics of that, I'm curious, I'm sure it is
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: obviously training the body, training the body, training the body,
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  Speaker 1: but also training the mind.
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  Speaker 2: There's so much training the mind.
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  Speaker 1: What have you done to your mind? I mean, to
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  Speaker 1: help you be a champion. How did you work out
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  Speaker 1: with your mind?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. So I really think that's where my swimming took
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  Speaker 2: off was when I really started honing my mental strength.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And there's a saying in swimming that it's you and
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  Speaker 2: the black line. So the black line on the bottom
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  Speaker 2: of the pool, like that's how we see when the
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  Speaker 2: wall's coming up, there's a T on the bottom of
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  Speaker 2: the pool. And it's a lot of times it's you
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: in your own head. I'm sure when you were out
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  Speaker 2: on the trail, it's a lot of you in your
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: own head and your thoughts. And swimming is that way.
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  Speaker 2: And so once I really leaned into... kind of the
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  Speaker 2: meditative side of swimming, like really focusing on every single
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  Speaker 2: thing that my body is doing in that moment. Not
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  Speaker 2: only did it make my workouts go a lot faster,
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  Speaker 2: you know, because, you know, workouts and swimming are like
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  Speaker 2: two hours at a time and you're doing morning and
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  Speaker 2: evening and you're doing weight training and you're doing all
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  Speaker 2: these things. And you don't get to talk to your
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  Speaker 2: friends because, you know, when you're on the wall, you're
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: like catching your breath and then you, you know, then
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: you go for the next rep. So it's a lot
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  Speaker 2: of time in your own head. And when I was
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: a teenager, I used to sing a song and distract
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  Speaker 2: myself and just try and get through the workout as
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  Speaker 2: best as possible and survive, you know, and just wait
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  Speaker 2: till it's over. And then in college and beyond college,
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  Speaker 2: I started to really lean into it and and think
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  Speaker 2: about what my body was doing at every single moment
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  Speaker 2: and really started to work on visualization and imagining my
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: races from how it feels when you walk out onto
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: the pool deck, what it smells like, what the block
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  Speaker 2: feels like, what the water feels like, what my suit
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  Speaker 2: feels like on my body. When I started doing those techniques,
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  Speaker 2: was when my swimming really took off. And it was
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: a practice that I used from, you know, the early
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  Speaker 2: 2000s to when I was done competing at 2016 or so.
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  Speaker 1: And why do you think that that kind of moment
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  Speaker 1: by moment intense visualization made a difference?
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  Speaker 3: What effect did it have? on your, on your body
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  Speaker 3: and your mind and your nervous system?
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  Speaker 1: Do you think like, was it calming or was it
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  Speaker 1: like it to me describing that it's almost like, you know,
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: you use that word perfection. You said you were a
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: really competitive person, which, you know, both of those things
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: obviously have served you, but they can also be counter.
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  Speaker 1: Cause like when we're talking about being perfect, we mess
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: up because we're, you know, we, we, none of us
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  Speaker 1: can be perfect.
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  Speaker 3: But it sounds to me almost like that.
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  Speaker 1: Kind of going down to the moment and visualizing could
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  Speaker 1: be actually like relaxing and allowing your body to do
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  Speaker 1: its work.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's such an interesting thing because you do want
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  Speaker 2: to be relaxed. You don't want to be terrified before
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  Speaker 2: you go into a race, that's for sure. Because no
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: one races well when they're scared. But you do want
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: to be kind of scared, right? It's like this weird
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  Speaker 2: balance of you need some nerves. And, like, you don't
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: want to be, like, so completely calm because, like, you
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: do need your nervous system to be excited. But where
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: I think the visualization really was helpful for me, it
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: was that once I actually raced, it's like I'd already
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: been there. So it was just getting back into that practice.
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  Speaker 2: And I was always someone who was really, really good
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: at practice and working hard. And I never was like
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: scared of the physical pain of, of pushing myself to
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: the limit. Um, you know, and swimming when you're racing super,
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: super hard, like any sort of power sprint-based sport, you
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: hit that wall and the lactic acid takes over. And
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: it just feels like, you know, there's like fire in
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: your muscles. And so that sensation was something that I
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: trained often. And so when it happened in a race,
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: I wasn't fearful of it. And I knew what my
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: body was going to do when that sensation started to happen.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: So for me, let's say it's backstroke, I would feel
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: like my body position would start to change. My tempo
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: would start to change. My head position would start to change.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: And so I had practiced that so many times and
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: I knew when that would happen and I knew how
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: to counteract it. And so I just became a much
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: smarter athlete and more mentally tough as well as And
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: then the physical piece just kind of comes into play.
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like the union. It's like the union of
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: those two things. You won gold in.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: 2004 in Athens, but you had set your sights on
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: the 2000 Olympics and didn't make the team. And I'm
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: curious about that experience of disappointment of like not having
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: the dream come true. Obviously the dreams came true in
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: abundance later, but looking back, can you tell me about
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: that experience of training so hard to make that team
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: and then not making it and how that may be
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: ultimately contributed to your success in the end.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, now, you know, being in my 40s
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: and that's, you know, ancient history, I'm so grateful for
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: that experience of missing my first Olympic team. You know,
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: I in 1998, like I was racing so well and
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: I was just on this upward trajectory of like, I'm
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: going to make my first Olympic team in 2000, and
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go to Sydney Olympics. And like everything
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: was going according to plan, you know, quote unquote, according
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: to plan. And then I had this like devastating injury.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: I tore my labrum in training, which is my labrum
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: in my shoulder. And I just, I couldn't train the
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: way that I needed to train. And that the year
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: leading up to that Games, was to the 2000 games
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: was just so mentally exhausting and it was hard you
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: know I was like 16 17 years old and I
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: was going through getting so close to my dream and
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: then like see it slip through my fingers and so
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: ultimately I didn't make that team but it was the
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: best thing for me because I went to college right
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: after that. So the Olympic trials for the 2000 Olympic
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: Games was, I believe, in August. And in August, I
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: went to Cal for my freshman year. So it forced
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: me to have a blank slate, a clean slate. And
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: more than anything, it kind of tore down my ego.
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: I think. I.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: I've always been very strong willed. I'm not very stubborn
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: and very stubborn. And I'm someone who likes to know
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: why I'm doing something right. And so and so I'm
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: also someone who needs to buy into the process. Like
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: if I don't think that something in training makes sense,
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: like I'm not going to buy into it. And so
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: I think having missed that Olympic team, starting fresh at
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: at Cal and then having my ego stripped away, it
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: really set me up for the next decade because I
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: started fresh. I was open to new ideas. I was
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: much more coachable than I probably would have been had
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: I come into Cal as an Olympian. I came into
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: Cal as someone who almost made the Olympics, which is
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: still great, but it's like a humbling position.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: It's a much humbler position. And I think it set
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: me up for the next decade of success. So, you know,
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: years and years later, I'm so grateful for it. And honestly,
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: even in 2004 and 2008, I was grateful for it,
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: that I had gone through that experience. But it was
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: a really tough one. It was a really tough one,
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: like your whole hormonal and kind of crazy when you're
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: 16 anyway. Yeah.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: I mean, I always think about that because in so
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: many sports, athletes will reach sometimes really high levels, elite levels,
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: you know, when they're in their teens and 20s, you know,
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: and those are decades that like we're very uncertain of
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: ourselves in general.
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: And there's so much happening. Like we don't have the.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: Wisdom that being in our 40s and 50s and 60s
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: gives us. And yet there you are in the spotlight.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: There you are. There are all these expectations maybe being
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: either put on you or that you are projecting that
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: are being put on you. And it's a lot to carry.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: You know, it's I think that it's really powerful, though,
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: to me. I think one of the universal themes I'm
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: always interested in, like listening and listening to people's stories
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: and being like, what's the universal thread here? And I
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: think one of the great kind of conundrums of life
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: is that, you know, failure in the moment always.
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: Feels like terrible, right? It always feels like failure.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: It feels like everything's over, all is lost, all is wasted.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: And very seldom in that moment can we stop and
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: say like, no, this will be someday a gift that
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: will actually contribute to the opposite of failure to my success.
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: But it's so often that's that is the story that
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: is how we apprentice ourselves to the craft of life
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: and the craft of sport and the craft of art,
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: you know, and all of those things. And I think
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: it's certainly a theme in your life. I love this
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: being six, being disqualified, being 16, not making that team.
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: And then you come back in Athens.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: What did it feel like when you touched that wall
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: and you, when did you realize, like, do you, when
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: you're in the water, like, are you just there or
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: you're not, you weren't aware that you were winning gold
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: until you touched that wall and look up and see
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: the clock or what was that moment?
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: Take us inside that, that dream come true.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's, I mean, backstroke is really tough because you're
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: just staring. And in Athens, we, we had no ceiling.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: We were outdoors. So in, in Athens, I was just
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: staring at blue sky and the water splashing in your peripherals. Yeah. Yeah. Well, well,
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: the blue sky, like in backstroke, cause I'm staring, you know,
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: you're on your back. And so you're just staring at
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: the sky and, um, You could see through your peripherals,
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: but because it's backstroke, there's just a lot of splashing
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: going on. So you kind of have a sense of
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: where you are versus your competition. But a lot of
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: times I would mistake my own splashes for someone next
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: to me. But I had a sense I was winning.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: I hoped I was winning. I should have won because
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: I was the world record holder and I was definitely
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: the favorite in Athens. And I remember touching the wall.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: And the scoreboard in Athens was really small. And the
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: way that they recycled the times was strange. Like typically
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: you have your name and you're in lane four and
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: it says a one by your name. But I remember
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: in Athens, your name then jumps up or down on
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: the scoreboard. And I just remember for a split second
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: and it felt like probably like way longer. Yeah. then
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: you know like it's one of those things that feels
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: like 20 seconds and it's like a half a second
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: right um not being clear if I want or not
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: and then I just remember seeing that I had and
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: just this overwhelming sense of relief um and then happiness
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: but it ultimately if I have to be honest like
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: the first sense was relief because that was my goal
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: to lose in my mind um and So I felt
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: like I finally achieved what I knew I was capable
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: of for so many years. And no one could ever
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: take that away from me. Like, that's the beauty of
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: of being Olympian is once you're an Olympian, you're Olympian
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: for life. And I'm a gold medalist. So that's just
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: like education. Like you don't ever call someone a former Olympian.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: We're always Olympians.
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: So it's, it's one of those things where it's like, man,
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: this is something I get to enjoy for the rest
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: of my life. And yeah, like Athens was a small,
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: a really small crowd. There was only 6,500 people in
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: the stands. And so it's, I was very clearly able
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: to pick out my parents, my grandparents, my godfather, my
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: now husband, who was my boyfriend at the time, my sister.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: And so my crew was there and they got to share.
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: That with me.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: And yeah, it was just such a wonderful celebration moment.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: But like there really aren't the right words to describe that.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: what emotions goes through your head in that first Olympic gold. Relief,
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: like I said, is a good first word, but it's just,
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: it's happiness. Yeah, it's happiness and just satisfaction and just, yeah,
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: it's just this release.
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: It's beautiful. So then four years later.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: you return to the Olympics in Beijing. And I'm curious,
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, spoiler alert, you did win the
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: gold also in that same competition. But how was it,
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: what was the difference between like chasing this dream and saying, okay,
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: this gold is mine to win.
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: But you hadn't won it yet.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: And then returning as the defending champion. Was that easier
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: or harder? How was it different?
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: It's much harder. It's much, much harder to come in
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: as you know, the top dog that everyone's chasing. Even,
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: you know, even in Athens, I was the world record holder,
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: but I still hadn't proven myself at that Olympic stage yet.
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: So coming in as the defending gold medalist in Beijing
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: was incredibly difficult. And I had fierce competition. You know,
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: one of my biggest college competitors was having an incredible meet,
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: Kirstie Coventry from Zimbabwe. And she, in the semifinal, ended
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: up breaking my world record in that semifinal. And I
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: remember watching it and I was like, Oh, damn, like
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: we're going to have a really good race tomorrow. And
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: I leaned back onto that visualization and watching my race
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: unfold that next day. All I did was I watched
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: it over and over and over again in my head
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: and play out the way that I wanted it to
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: play out. And again, I remember hitting the wall, having
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: that moment of panic slash confusion, like not understanding where
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: I am on the scoreboard. And then again, just like
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: feeling that moment of like, hell yeah, like I actually
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: did that. And that was the first and only time
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: in my entire career where on the podium, I actually
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: like cried and I had this like physical, emotional release.
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: And I'm not someone who is very emotional in that way.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: And I remember... seeing all the videos of people at
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: the Olympics. And I just remember the wrestlers. The wrestlers
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: would always cry. You see them winning their gold medal
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: and they're always tearing up. I'm like, wow, that's beautiful.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: That'll never be me. And I remember being on that
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: podium and the third place, the bronze medalist was also
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: an American. And this was an event that she wasn't
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: expected to even be on the team for. But she
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: had an amazing race. It was her first Olympic medal.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: And I look over to her and she was kind
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: of tearing up. And I just remember starting to tear
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: up because she was crying. And then I was crying
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: because I was crying. And then by the time the
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: national anthem was over, I was like a blubbering, sobbing
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: mess and like red in the face. It was just
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: like ugly cry. But... Again, that's just, that's what the
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: Olympics represents to someone in an Olympic sport. It's everything
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: that you've dreamt about. And celebrating those wins really represents
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: the decades of hard work prior to that.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: And I will say, you know, as somebody who has
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: never won, any medal in the Olympics and never dreamed
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: of it, really, and never intended to.
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: I will say.
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: thousands of people and maybe millions of people around the
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: world were probably crying with you. I always cry when, uh,
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: during the ceremonies, when they're on the podium and they're crying,
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: like I cry with them because again, I think because
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: this is one of the most powerful things about sport,
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: but especially the Olympics is in, in that kind of
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: struggle and, you know, triumph and failure and, you know,
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: victory and defeat and, you know, all of those, you know,
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: pushing yourself to the limit, um, We see ourselves, right?
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: People who would never have never.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: Gotten in a pool and swim to lap see in
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: their own lives that struggle that you've like shown us
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: through your endeavor there.
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: It's really a moving experience.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: But I want to first, we have to take a
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: detour because I want to know what is your theory
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: of the wrestlers? Why are the wrestlers the criers among
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: the Olympians?
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I have no idea, but I just remember seeing
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: like in 96 and 2000, like always it was the
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: wrestlers that are crying. And I think, I don't know,
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: like it's like this beautiful thing, but that's just seared
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: in my brain. But maybe your audience could prove me
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: wrong if that's incorrect. But all the wrestlers are going
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: to write in.
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: We don't cry anymore.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: We don't cry.
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: I swear.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: But I think it's such a beautiful thing. And it
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: was something that I never imagined I would be that
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: person just because I was just especially as a teenager
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: and in my early 20s, I just wasn't emotional in
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: that way. So it's it was a special outer body
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: moment for me.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: And of course, you returned in 2012 to London on
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: the Olympic team. And then were attempting to go back
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: in 2016 for your fourth Olympic team and didn't make it.
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: We've talked so much about all of these victories.
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: I'm wondering, what was it like for you to say, like, OK,
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: I attempted this and I didn't win? achieved that dream
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: at this point in my career. How did you handle that?
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: What did that, you know, how did you come to
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: terms with that in the end?
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was difficult. So I didn't have a great
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: 2012 Olympics. Like I had a pretty good 2011 World Championships.
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: And in 2012, I just didn't race well. And it
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: was a really interesting experience because in 2012, I was 29.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: I was already married. And just outwardly, so many people
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: were already saying like, oh, she's going to retire and
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: then she's going to have babies and she's going to
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: do this and that and this. And I was like,
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: I never said any of these things. And I remember
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: getting really annoyed that so many people were signing my
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: retirement papers for me and expecting me to leave the sport. And,
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: you know, and I don't know, like I just I
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: didn't want to leave on those terms. And so I
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: made a coaching change in 2012. I still stayed at Cal,
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: which I'm very grateful for. But I changed up my training.
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: And ultimately, I didn't make the team in 2016. But
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: I am so grateful for the years of between 2012
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: and 2016 and really striving to put myself on the
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: line again. And I did get so much better in so,
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: so many ways. And I fell in love with swimming, like,
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: more than I ever have in my entire life. And
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: then didn't make the team, but I felt okay with it. Like, obviously,
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: I was very disappointed. I knew I was capable of it.
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: I just... I just didn't do it when it mattered.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: But I had a wonderful experience and I'm just so
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: grateful for it because I had spent so many years
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: swimming and there are times you love the sport and
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: there are times you hate the sport. And I was
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: able to leave on my own terms and leave on
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: a good note. And so I could look back on the, God,
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: the 30 years that I raced with such joy and pride.
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: And I don't have to think like, oh, what if
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: I kept going? Like I know what would happen. I
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: didn't make it. But it was something that I needed
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: to do.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: And you left, but you– and I love that you
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: left on your own terms. And part of that is
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: that you said, I'm not going to retire. I'm not
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: going to do this thing you've all decided that I'm doing.
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to retire.
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: What does that mean to you, the difference between– deciding
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: to step back and to, you know, at least leave
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: the sport as an elite competitor, but not say, hey, everyone,
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: I'm retiring.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I never. Yeah. So I've never officially retired from swimming.
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: And but I stopped competing in 2016. And then for
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: a hot second, I competed in 2020. 19, I think,
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: 2019 for a new professional league that was happening. I
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: just wanted to support it. And I thought it would
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: be a fun way to get back into shape after
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: my first baby. But I never wanted to kind of
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: like sign the death certificate of my swimming career. Like
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: that's kind of how I saw retirement, honestly. And it
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: was just something that I just never wanted to do.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: I didn't want this... like final like contract to exist.
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: And there's no contract. You just like sign your name
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: on some drug testing papers basically and say like, hey, yeah,
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: it's basically so that you sign a retirement papers and
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: then you don't get drug tested.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: You can do all the drugs. I mean, if you retire. Yeah,
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: you can do all the drugs.
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: And just for your audience, just so they know, the
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: reason they do that If you do retire and then
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: you come out of retirement, you have to go through,
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: at the time, it's probably changed. It's probably longer now.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: You had to go through nine months of like intense
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: drug testing before you could compete again. So it is
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: like a big pain in the butt if you do
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: retire and then unretire. So that was, you know, I
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: like to have the door open.
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: So it's a thing, right?
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, it's a thing.
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: The thing is, is I put my money on you, Natalie.
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, if you're going to be like the first
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: like 50-year-old, you know, gold... you know, a medalist in
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: the hundred meter backstroke. I mean, I'm with you. Like
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: I would gamble on you.
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: So. Well, in LA, so LA 2028, they're adding fifties
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: of strokes. So 50 back, 50 fly, 50 breaststroke. And
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: they announced that I believe last year, maybe a year
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: and a half ago or so. And when they announced that,
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: I was like, damn, if I was five, Five or
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: eight years younger. Oh, God, I would like make a serious,
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: serious consideration to make a comeback. But yeah, I think
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: I got I got enough competing out of my system.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: I love that. I love the process of working hard
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: and striving for something, but I got enough competition in
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: my life. So I'm ready to sit back and watch
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: LA 28.
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: And have like a whole bunch of other chapters. I
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: know you've become a mom to two kids since your
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: days as an Olympian, which you're still an Olympian, but
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: what I mean is your days actually competing.
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: I know what you mean.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: And among other things, but Before I ask you about
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: the next chapter, it just so happens that I have
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: a Dear Sugar letter that's right along these lines. So
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: I'd love to read it to you and we can
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: answer it and give advice.
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: And also you can.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: Tell me and the letter writer about your own next chapter.
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: I love it.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: Dear Sugar, I've had a highly gratifying career as a
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: high school counselor for 28 years, but it's time for
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: me to move on.
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: Some of that decision was not made by me alone.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: The public school where I've worked for the past two
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: decades is in the process of merging with another school,
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: and I was offered a position in a location on
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: the other side of the district that doesn't make sense
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: for me. So I put in my notice and recently
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: worked my last day. However, even before that happened, I'd
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: been thinking I was ready for another chapter. I enjoy
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: working with young people, but over the past few years,
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: I've noticed I go to work with less enthusiasm than
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: I used to. and I can't blame it all on menopause.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: I'm burned out and ready for a life change. I'm 52,
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: so I still have many years before I'd consider retiring.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: But now the big question I'm asking myself, and you,
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: is what next? You can't tell me what next, of course.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: But do you have some advice for me about how
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: I might go about finding a second fulfilling career? When
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: I was in college, I knew I liked to help people,
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: and that led me to my career in counseling youth.
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: All these years later, I still like.
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: To help people, but I want to get creative about
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: what form that might take the second time around. Maybe
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: it's something adjacent to my past work, but maybe it's
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: something entirely different. I have some savings and a partner
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: who's employed and supportive, so I'm able to give myself
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: several months to reflect and take stock so I can
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: figure out which direction I want to go in next.
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: Can you and your guests please talk about how you've
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: handled the transitions and next chapters in your own lives?
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: What ideas do you have for me that could help
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: me find a new job that I love or at
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: least like? I'm open to a wide range of possibilities
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: and paths. Will you help me map out some directions
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: my exploration might take?
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: Thanks.
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: Signed, starting over.
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: So. Oh, my gosh.
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: That's a big question, isn't it?
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: It's a really big question. I could imagine as a
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: counselor how fulfilling that job can be, but also the
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: weight that you take on of other people and kind
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: of the secondary trauma of listening and experiencing it with
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: your patients or kids or however you would describe it.
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: It's incredibly difficult, but I will say... You know, there's
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: the cliche when one door opens, you know, another door
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: or when one door closes, another door opens. But I
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: do I do truly believe in that. I I think
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: when you put yourself out there in a way where
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: you're open to new experiences and new ideas, opportunities seem
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: to find their way. And from it. That's been my
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: experience at least. So I stopped competing in 2016. And
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: then in 2017, I started my winery with my business partner.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: And that's something that I never thought I would do.
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: But she approached me and I was in the right
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: headspace and the right time of my life to really
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: dive into a new business. And I think that's kind of...
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: how you need to approach it. You know, like just
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: be ready for new opportunities, excited for new opportunities, vulnerable
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: and ready to experience maybe one or two failures. You know,
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: like you said, this woman's 52, I think you said,
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: you know, there's time to experiment and to fail and
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: to find that next chapter. I don't think you need
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: to dive in immediately and and be right or find
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: your new passion immediately. Right. I think there's, fortunately she
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: has a partner that could support her as she finds
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: this next chapter, but I think it's really exciting.
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: I think too, like when you say there's time to
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: experiment and fail and, and like, I think it's important
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: to remember too, is like, it's always an experiment, you know,
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: just because we've decided like, oh, this is my next thing.
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: And this is what's how it's going to work. And
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: this is how it's going to go.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: It's like, then life teaches you that actually you don't
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: get to plan life.
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: You know, like you can, you can.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: Believe that these things will come true and you can
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: give everything for them to come true. And sometimes they don't,
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: or sometimes you thought you were something that wasn't going
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: to work out. You start doing it and you're like,
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: you know, I kind of really dig this. And, and
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: so I would suggest, and I, and I want to
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: ask you, um, like, how you made that leap from
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: water to wine.
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: It sounds kind of like some kind of like biblical thing.
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: Like Jesus. That's right.
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: I'm not very well-versed in the Bible, but there's some
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: water to wine thing I know.
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: And that's what you did.
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: You know, like if you write a memoir, it can
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: be from water to wine, the Natalie Coughlin story. But,
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: you know, I think that it's What I want to
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: dig in here, because I think I know the answer
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: to this question, but, you know, by way of addressing
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: starting over his question is like, how do I find
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: that next thing?
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: How did you find your way to success? wine?
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: Like, how did you become interested in doing this with
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: your friend?
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: So I mean, I grew up just outside of Napa Valley.
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: So the wine industry was literally in my backyard. And
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: my parents were into wine and loved to go wine tasting.
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: And so I was always really interested in it. And
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: when I became of drinking age, I wanted to learn
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: more about wine. And so I started visiting Napa and
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: going wine tasting. And Along the way, I made a
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: really good friend through one of my husband's friends. So
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: one of my husband's teammates married a woman who moved
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: out here who ultimately became my wine partner, my business partner.
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: when she moved out to California, she started over at like,
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: I think she was like 25 or 26 or so.
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: She already had had her college degree, but decided she
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: wanted to go into wine. So she redid her undergrad
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: and graduate degree in viticulture and enology. And as she
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: was doing this, I was asking her a thousand questions.
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: Like I was always, I was so impressed that she
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: was starting over. And it's just so funny because 25
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: is like so crazy young, but at the time I
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: was like, oh my God, she's so old to be
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: starting over. But I was asking her a million questions
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: about it and we became like wine buddies. And then
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: when I was done competing, she finally felt ready to
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: start her own business and she asked me like, hey,
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: I know you're good at branding. I know you're a
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: hard worker. I know you love wine. Would you consider
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: being my business partner? And I said, yes, before thinking
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: about it, before talking to my husband, before anything. I
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: was like, yes, I will figure it out. And I
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: think this is why I think sport for people and
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: especially girls is so important is I think it... gives
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: you such a sense of confidence and hard work and
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: the importance of goal setting and all those things that
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: translate to other parts of your life. And I jumped
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: into this knowing that I don't know what I'm doing,
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: but I will learn it. I ended up taking classes
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: at UC Davis on viticulture and enology. And we're in
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: our 10th year. We just picked our Chenin Blanc this morning, actually.
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: And what's your winery called? My winery is Guderian Wines.
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: So it means to gather in Old English. Because that's
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: what you do. You gather with friends and family around
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: a table, around a bottle of wine, and you share
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: an experience. So that's what we named it after. And yeah,
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: it's been a really fun, challenging experience. In Napa, it's
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: we've had so many wildfires and we've had drought and we've,
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: you know, this year is going to be a historic
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: El Nino, whatever that means. Um, so part of the
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: wine industry is just going with the flow and there
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: are so many things out of our, out of our hands. Um,
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: you know, whatever mother nature deals, uh, us that year,
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: we have to figure it out. And, um, I feel
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: like sport has prepared me for that.
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's interesting.
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just letting go of the things I can't control.
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: Serenity prayer, I guess.
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: But also.
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: You know, what I'm hearing for starting over, what I'm
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: hearing at the core of this story that you're telling
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: is like, one, you just followed your interest. You'd always
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: been kind of interested in wine. You started, you went
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: from being curious to having it be sort of a
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: hobby or, you know, like exploring it a little bit more.
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: And then suddenly.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: you were pulled more deeply into it when your friend
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: asked if you would join her and you trusted your gut.
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: You trusted your instincts. You said yes before consulting others.
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: You dove into the deep end.
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: Of the pool, shall we say.
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: And I think that you were starting over that those
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: are really a couple of really key ingredients in terms
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: of like finding the next thing is, you know, I
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: always give this to this writing advice. When I teach
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: writing workshops, I say like, you know, we, we tend
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: to write most naturally about the things that are interesting
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: to us.
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: You know, it could be your own life. It could
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: be a life you imagine.
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: It could be an obsession you have with turtles or
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: swimming or.
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: Fill in the blank.
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: And, And because when we love something, just like you said,
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: like you loved swimming, you loved the water.
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: Like, so there you go.
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, go with that flow of your
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: own curiosity and your own interest starting over. And I think,
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: you know, you know that you like helping people and,
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: you know, see like I love this idea of going
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: outside the box.
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: There are so many ways to help people.
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: Pretty much everything we do, if we do it with
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: all of our heart, you know, it ends up being
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: helpful to others.
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: And so trust that instinct and see where it leads you.
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: I love that. I really love that. I was just
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: trying to brainstorm like all the different things with the
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: experience of 28 years of counseling, how that could, you know.
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: metamorphosis or, you know, like it's like the next chapter,
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: like how does that transform into the next chapter? And
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: I think there's just like so much experience and wisdom
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: and knowledge from those 28 years that you could use
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: in this next chapter. It's exciting. It's terrifying, but it's exciting.
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: And just being, I think, open and willing to go
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: through the possible failures along the way. That's just part
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: of the journey, unfortunately. Yeah. But it's also the exciting part.
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: That's right. We don't know what's ahead.
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: El Dinos and gold medals and not making the team and,
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: you know, your school moving, you know, putting you across
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: the other side of the district.
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: That's life.
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: And starting over, we know you got this and you're
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: going to find a really wonderful next chapter for whatever
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: it is. We wish you all the luck. So Natalie,
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: what's next for you? Like I know you're, so you're,
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: you're in the winery business. You also have stayed involved.
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: With swimming. Tell me about that. And you're, are you
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: a swim mom? Are your kids also now like on
• 53:12
  Speaker 3: the swim team?
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: Yes. Of all of that.
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: So So yeah, I have Guderian wines. So I make
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: that wine alongside my business partner, Shaina Harding. And that
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: is my day-to-day business. I am a swim mom to
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: my son and daughter. My son just finished his second
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: summer of swim season and my daughter finished her fifth,
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: which is crazy. They both love swimming. It's... It's such
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: a great sport because the youngest kids get to be
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: on the same team as the teenagers. And so they
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: get to emulate and look up to those teenagers. And
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: they're all part of one team and they do a
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: lot of the meets together. And it's just it's really beautiful.
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: So I'm enjoying the swim mom side of things. And then.
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: Another thing that's really, really, really exciting is I invested
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: in the San Francisco Signal, which is the new professional
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: volleyball league that's coming to, it's the expansion team in
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: San Francisco. January is going to be our first games
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: here in the city. And I just, I believe so
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: much in the power of sport and how it transforms
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: not only the athletes themselves, but the fans and everyone
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: around it. It's just such a wonderful community. So when
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: I was presented this opportunity of investing in this team
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: and supporting this team, again, it was something I was
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: not looking for. I wasn't actively pursuing this, but it's
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: been such a wonderful opportunity and a wonderful family of
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: the San Francisco Signal. So I'm really excited about that.
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: I'd love that.
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: Are you, speaking of volleyball, are you still an athlete yourself?
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: Are you, like, what's your relationship to sport now and
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: swimming in particular?
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: Yes, I will always be an athlete. And I realized
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: after about two years postpartum with my son, I started
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: lifting really heavy again, like in the weight room. And once...
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: After about four months, I just remember thinking like, oh,
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: my God, I feel like myself again. And, you know,
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: I had my son October of 2020. So who knows
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: what was postpartum and what was COVID. Like I was
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: in this like crazy fog for a long time. And
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: getting really fit again in the gym and lifting heavy weights,
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: that made me feel like myself. And I did do
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: a marathon a couple years ago, which I loved. I
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: loved training for it. I loved racing for it. racing it.
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: My goal was to break four hours. I'm a sprinter.
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: So my goal was to break four hours. I went 348.
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: I was like so happy with myself.
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: Well done.
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: I wanted to do it. Thank you. I wanted to
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: do it again. But I have like arthritis in my knee.
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: And so I was like, oh, this isn't really that
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: healthy for me. So my next obsession is golf. And
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: so I golf. I love golf. I love that chasing
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: perfection that you'll never achieve. I kind of love that
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: torture of working really, really hard and literally like just
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: chipping away, chipping away, chipping away. And I am getting better.
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: Like I've been consistently playing now for a year. I'm
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: getting better. But I have to embrace the fact that
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: I suck. Like, I am a high handicap and I
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: suck at this game. But for some reason, I love it. Like,
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: I absolutely love it.
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: Wow. Well, I love that, too.
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: And here again, looping back to that letter we just answered,
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: you know, from starting over is like, to constantly be
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: finding that new thing. And, you know, you're this elite swimmer,
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: but then here you are, you suck at golf.
• 57:22
  Speaker 3: So there's hope for all of us, Natalie. Thank you.
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: Thank you for reminding us of that. But yeah, it's, it's,
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: it's a good lesson. Like it's, I am a competitive person.
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: And trust me, I want to be a scratch golfer.
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: And I know that I have to put in the
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: hours and hours and hours. But yeah, there's just something
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: about working hard at something and sucking at it and
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: still loving it. It's foreign to me, but it's been
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: a really good experience.
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: Wonderful. Well, I have full confidence in you, Natalie, that
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: you'll be.
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: That's on the top of your game, your golf game
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: in the very near future.
• 58:04
  Speaker 3: My next career.
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: And your next career, you're going to come in, you're
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: going to sweep the golf, whatever they are, the championships.
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: And I believe it with all my heart. Natalie, it
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: has been such a pleasure to talk to you. Thank
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: you for being on Mind Over Mountain.
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: Thank you. I really appreciate meeting you and having this discussion.
• 58:24
  Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: If you'd like to write to me seeking advice, please
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: send me an email to deardearsugar at gmail.com. And don't
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: forget to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: Happy trails, and I'll see you next week. Mind Over
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: Mountain with Cheryl Strayed is an iHeart Women's Sports production
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: produced by Brittany Brown and Rodney Brown of Barbara Jean Productions.
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: Supervising producer is Kaylin West at Realm. Associate producer, Amaya Brathwaite.
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Molly Barton, Jerry Carita, Grace Fuse,
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: and Jesse Katz. Our theme song is composed by Gramascope Music.
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: your podcasts. Happy trails, and I'll see you next week.