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Giving Old Batteries New Life · What's Your Problem?

• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Pushkin. So the world is basically just starting this massive
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: shift from fossil fuels to a combination of renewable energy
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: and battery storage. This is good news. I hope it
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: happens as quickly as possible, but it is going to
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: be a massive, complicated, hard transition. One of the many
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: ways in which it is complicated and hard is building
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: and dealing with all those batteries we're going to need.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: At a basic level, takes a lot of metal, a
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: lot of nickel, a lot of cobalt, just to make
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: all the batteries we're going to need, And mining and
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: refining those metals is a thing that basically doesn't happen
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: in the US or in Europe anymore, at least doesn't
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: happen at any significant scale, and for understandable reasons. Right,
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: this is an intense, often dirty, industrial process, and so
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: as you might guess, a huge share of industrial refining
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: of these kinds of metals now happens in China. And
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: on top of getting the metal out of the ground
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: and refined in the first place, there's a second complication.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Batteries wear out. What do we do with all that
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: potentially useful metal once a battery has finished its useful
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: life as a battery. So just to sum up to recap,
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: the world needs a huge new supply of batteries, but
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: especially in the US and Europe, it's not clear how
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: we can get the metal we need to make all
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: those batteries, and it's also not clear what we should
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: do with those batteries when they wear out. I'm Jacob
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem, the show where
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: I talk to people who are trying to make technological progress.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: My guest today is Megan O'Connor. She's the co founder
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: and CEO of a company called en Cycle, like the
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: letter in and then thh and then cycle. Megan's problem
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: is this, can you come up with an efficient system
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: that can both refine the raw metals we need for
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: batteries and recycle old batteries to extract that metal so
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: it can be used again in new batteries. Megan told
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: me that she first had the idea for the company
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: when she was getting her PhD in environmental engineering. Her
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: PhD is from Duke, but the idea actually came out
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: of this meeting she went to at Yale and it
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: was weirdly hard for her to get in the door
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: of that meeting.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: One of the professors there was a head of the
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: Green Chemistry and Green Engineering school, and he wanted to
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: bring industry in to help really direct the center's research
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: to what industry cares about.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: So that's one of the reasons why I went to
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: grad school, is like work on something that industry really
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: cares about and that has a real problem. And I
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: overheard him talking about this green Electronic summit in the
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: hallway a couple weeks before, and it was completely clear
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: off to students. So it was supposed to be like
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: a closed door meeting with these like you know, large
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: consumer electronic OEMs, so like Apple, Dell, Intel, folks who
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: make our cell phones and laptops and things. And I
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: really wanted to be in this room even though it
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: was closed off to students and other faculty. So what
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: I had to do is banged down this professor's door
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: for three weeks straight, and I think he finally just
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: gave in and staid, Okay.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: Badgering is an underrated strategy.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: I'm very determined, which I think you'll hear a lot
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: of entrepreneurs say. But I really wanted me in this meeting,
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: say like, okay, does industry actually care about any of
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: this that I've been researching? Right, And so he finally
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: let me in as a scribe, said all right, I
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: need somebody to take notes. Come in and take notes
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: for nine hours. So I sat there and over and
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: over and over again in this in this summit, every
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: single manufacturing company in there said the same two things. One,
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: they have no idea what At the time this was
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: ten years ago, they didn't know what to do with
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: their waste. Right. They said, look, we're all trying to
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: be leaders in transparency, in the supply chains, sustainability, right,
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: whatever you want to call it. They wanted to be
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: leaders in that space for their consumers, but they don't
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: know and didn't know how they were going to deal
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: with the growing waste management problem.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: So every time you buy a new cell phone or
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: every time you buy a new smart watch, right, where
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: does the where do those things end up? And so
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: they said, look, e waste, right, electronics waste is already
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: a massive problem around the world, and that we don't
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: really know how to solve. Imagine when these clean energy
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: technologies like electric vehicles, like wind turbines, like solar panels
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: start to come offline, those are considered electronics waste. Right,
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: it's just gonna it's going to exacerbate.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: Orders of magnet orders of magnitude larger, right than a
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: cell phone electric car is just a driving battery as
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: a bat exactly.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: And so what are we going to do with all
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: this waste once we start generating it?
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: As these companies they've said, you know, we want to
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: try to figure out how to take responsibility for this
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: in our supply chains, but we don't know how to
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: do that. And then the second round they all said,
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: is we don't know what our supply chains are going
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: to look like. Right again, a cell phone, you is
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: a couple of grams of cobalts, whereas an EV uses
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: orders of magnitude more metal in their batteries. And so
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: you think about we're already having supply chain issues and
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: accessing you know, that cobalt. What does that look like
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: when we start to hopefully manufacture and push out all
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: these much larger technologies.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: Right, millions of election millions of electric.
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: Vehicles hopefully, And then you add the winterbines, and then
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: you add the solar panels, right, the same the same
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: things I said before, and it just the supply chains
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: just become bigger and bigger problem.
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: And so I walked to that.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: Meeting feeling a like a little angry that like, how
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: are we barreling down this path again generating all this
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: waste when we have no way of dealing with it,
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: but then also feeling a little inspired and said, Okay,
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: we have all this waste. Is there a way and
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: is there a technology that exists out there to be
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: able to take that waste and turn it back into
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: metals so you can have a secondary supply of these
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: materials and sort of kill tubers with one stone.
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, So you have this this kind of big idea,
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: you talk about it with your advisor, a professor named
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: desire Plato, right, And then, as I understand it, you
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: and your advisor you think of this technology that a
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: Harvard professor had been working on, but not in this context, right,
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: working on for water filtration. So you go to this professor,
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: as I understand the story, his name is Chad Vesidas,
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: and is it right? Like you basically ask him if
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: you can try and apply his technique to recycle batteries
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: to refine metal. And then the three of you wind
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: up starting the company together. Is that right?
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: So I approached Chad and I said, hey, you don't
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: know me, but you know Desi a little bit, and
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: can I use your technology for this application?
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: He said yes.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: This was my third year of my PhD, so for
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: folks out there, it's typically a five to six year program,
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: so I was already halfway through. So it was a
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: little crazy of me to switch my project that far in.
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: But I felt very strongly that, you know, there there
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: was a solution that was needed here, and I went
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: to grad school to try and find a problem and
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: provide a technology solution. So I sort of dove headfirst
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: into it. So for the next three years, Chad, Desree
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: and I, you know, continue to work on this technology together,
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: and by the end of my PhD, it worked so
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: well that I felt if I put the right team together,
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: I think this technology could really change the world. They
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: could change the way that we refine metal. This industry
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: hasn't had any type of technological change in decades, right,
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: Like I'm talking close to one hundred years, right, This
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: has been the same technology we've seen and it's clearly
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: not working here in the US. It hasn't been adopted here.
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: So this is where technology can really have an impact
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: for the clean energy economy.
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: I mean when you say the technology, I mean you
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: mean specifically refining metals. Basically, Right, you've got metals, whether
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: it's recycling and they're mixed up with a bunch of
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: other stuff, or they're coming out of the ground and
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: they're mixed up with a bunch of other stuff. The
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: fundamental thing is, how do you separate out the metal
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: you want, whatever, the lithium, the nickel, the cobalt. That's
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: the funny thing.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: Exactly take from those sources, whether it's out of the
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: ground or out of some recycled end of life material,
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: and turn it back into basically something that's usable. Again,
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: that's what the chemical refining step does.
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: Why hadn't refining changed for one hundred years.
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: Most of the refining that's sent around the world is
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: in the mining industry, right, So these mining companies typically
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: will develop an asset, a long life asset, and an
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: asset meaning just the mine itself where they dig the
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: dirt and the metals out of the ground, and then
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: they typically stand the refinery up literally right next door.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: They want to eliminate as much of that transportation as
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: possible because these metals are in such low concentration. It's
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: a lot of dirt to a little bit of metal, right.
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: You don't want to move one hundred pounds of dirt
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: a thousand miles to get one pound of exactly.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: So the refining industry was really centered around this mining space.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: And so it was only when folks really started to
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: look at the recycling space, and I talk battery recycling
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: specifically right now, it was like, Okay, you have this big,
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: multi billion dollar refinery where you process eighty thousand tons
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: of material per year, which is massive, and you have
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: a recycling industry where a again you don't have a
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: magic pile of eighty thousand tons of batteries right in
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: one place. And batteries are changing, right, There's different types
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: of batteries from different companies, they have different chemistries, which
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: just means it makes it really hard to recycle them
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: all in this one facility. And so just that model,
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: you know, doesn't match.
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: Some of those mining refineries will take a little bit
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: of recycled material, but again they're all overseas, right, So
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: then you come to that national security challenge and so.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: And so the setting aside the overseas part that the
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: fundamental problem is they're built to process a huge amount
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: of some very homogeneous and consistent input for a long time.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: Like that's the economic model, that's correct, and that's the
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: fundamental problem.
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: That's the fundamental problem.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: So how do you do it?
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: We have developed a new technology we call electro extraction,
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: and so it's a it's a fancy word to say
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: that we use the same chemicals that you see in
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: refining today in those massive facilities I talked about, and
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: those are produced with fossil energy, so they're produced fossil
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: energy and then trucked to those sites. What we figured
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: out is to overcome the barrier of having to build
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: this massive facility, we could create a smaller, modular facility
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: to be able to process the smaller volumes of recycle
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: material that we have around the Western world by producing
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: the same chemicals with electricity, so we can produce them
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: when we need them, where we need them, and only
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: as much as we need them. And so that gives
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: us the efficiencies that we needed both from a cost
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: and energy perspective to be able to really scale down
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: that process instead of having to do eighty thousand tons
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: to justify this project per year, we only need to
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: do a minimum of two to three thousand tons per year.
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: So that allows us to work with all these different
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: recycling companies. And whether it's one type of battery or
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: nickel catalyst material, right, we process all different times types
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: of sort of scrap or end of life materials. And
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: we've overcome some big barriers to just getting refining capacity here,
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: both in the US and in Europe.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: And is it right that you just turned on your
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: first real facility last second half of last year in Ohio.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: That's right, and we just went live in September twenty
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: twenty four, so we're very excited. We have about eight
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: months of operations und our belt now.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: So tell me about what's happening in Ohio.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: In Ohio, So it's our refining system, which we call
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: the Oyster for shorts, and so our facility, it's a
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: big industrial warehouse. And basically what my system looks like,
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: I like to think of it as a deck of cards.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: So our electrochemical filters, as I mentioned before, think of
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: their like big plastic cards. So they're one meter wide,
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: one meter tall, and I have one hundred and forty
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: of those sort of stacked in parallels to think of
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: like a sideways deck of cards. And so inside those
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: cells is where I pull out the metals like the
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: nickel and the cobalt that we want back out for manufacturers.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: So when I get these shredded battery materials in, if
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: you walked into my facility today, you'd see a giant
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: tank on the left hand side facility. We'd dump that
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: shredded battery material into that tank. We dissolve it, and
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: so all those dissolved metals are in there.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: So the shredded battery which is called black mass. Is
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: that right? You haven't said black mass. I'm sort of disappointed.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: I was excited for you to state black mass.
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: Yes, it's called black mass.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: It just it literally looks like black like flower, like
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: the flower that you'd bake with. It just looks like
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: a black version of that, which is very interesting.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: So you get truckloads of black mass? Or did you
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: build your facility next to that of some company that
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: shreds batteries and creates black mass? Is that why you're there?
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: The reason we chose Fairfield was because there's a lot
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: of just industrial scrap that finds its way to the Midwest.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: The black mass capital of the.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: There is a couple of black mass companies around there
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: that take the batteries and show them into black mass,
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: and then we also process other types of industrial scrap
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: like catalysts from the oil gas industry. So that area
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: is just rich with those types of companies.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: So you've got your deck of cards. I like the
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: deck of cards. It's a metaphor. They're sort of stacked
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: a little spaced out. The black mass goes in one side,
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: you dissolve it into a liquid, and then what happens.
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: And then that liquid goes into our deca cards oyster system.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: That's where the chemicals are being produced in those cells
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: to pull out the cobalt, to pull out the nickel,
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: and then they come out the other side as the
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: product that we can sell.
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: And are you actually buying the black mass and selling
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: the nickel? Are you in the nickel business?
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: For this facility, we are so we called a merchant
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: facility where yes, we buy black mass from different partner
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: facilities and then we are selling the nickel product on
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: the other side of it. This will be the only
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: facility that we have that sort of again, I call
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: it a merchant facility for the business model, and we
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: did it for the first one again because it was
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: the first time that we've built the system at commercial scale,
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: so we wanted full site control.
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: And then we also use it as a business development tool.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: Right. Our traditional business model moving forward will be to
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: operate under what's called a tolling model, and so it's
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: really where we'll go on site with our partners and
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: Cycle will own and operate our system on their site,
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: and we'll charge them a fee per pound of save
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: battery or black mass that we process for them. So
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: think of almost like refining as a service, if you will.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: So they'll own the feedstock, we'll charge them to process it,
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: and then they'll own the nickel product coming out on
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: the other side.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: Because you don't want to be in the nickel business.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: As a young company, we wanted to only take the
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: risks we had to. Yeah, so we felt like, Okay,
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: we can handle the operational risk. It's our technology. We'll
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: do what we're good at, and then we'll let these
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: companies do it they're good at because they've been in
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: Remember these companies have been in the commodity business for decades.
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: Right or longer.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, they're very skilled in like the logistics and
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: the collection and no.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: Commodity business is crazy. Why would you want to do that?
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: If you have some technology, you believe it and let
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: other people solve that problem.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we want to be the technologists. We want to
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: be the technology provider. So that's our business model moving forward.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: And so what we use OHIO for is really like
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: a tool to show them what the technology looks like.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: We can process their material, you know, at lower volumes there,
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: to show them what we can do with it. It
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: de risks it on both sides as we're going into
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: this more partnership model with them in the future.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: So we've been talking about nickel. I heard you talk
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: in earlier interviews about nickel in particular, or this nickel
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: product more specifically in particular as being acutely affected by
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: kind of legal and regulatory changes both in the US
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: and in Europe. In a way that is good for you, right,
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: in a way that like those may be about to
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: go away.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: They are are they maybe us right, we don't know.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: Yet, and they seem likely to be about.
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: Likely to go away. That's right.
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: But I would say this administration also prioritizes critical minerals
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: just for other reasons, right, so more on the national
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: security side, and to really onchour our supply chain. So
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: there is equally as much demand for domestically produced materials,
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: just for a different reason. And so we still feel
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: like a ton of tailwinds with the executive orders, and
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: we'll see how that translates into policy in the next
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: couple of years.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: So the end of the ev mandate is bad for you,
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: but high tariffs are good for you.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I put it like that, but
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: we are definitely taking advantage of the desire to have
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: on shoing of these critical and il supply chains and
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: being one of the companies in the space that's operational.
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: So I think it's a good signal.
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: For us to scale quickly to be able to provide
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: both the military and again the folks who are still
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: pushing forward through the clean energy economy and the technologies
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: they're building, Right, they both need supply of these materials
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: they are used for.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: Both pivoting from being an energy transition company to being
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: in an American energy dominance company. That's right, we same company, right,
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: different wrapper.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: It's very true both we need both of those things.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: And then you know on the on the European side,
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: where they haven't had much change in terms of their
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: their regulatory environment as I like to think about it,
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: but they care about this again for a different reason.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: They have something that's called the battery passport where they're
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: going to have to reduce the carbon footprint of their
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: batteries that are being produced. And it starts with the metals, right,
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: And so currently where you can source the vast majority
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: of the nickel around the world uses a technology that
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: is very carbon intensive.
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: It's called HPAL.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: HPAL is the acronym if folks care to look that up.
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: But it's just a very very carbon intensive way to
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: produce this nickel out of the nickel mining that happens
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: in Indonesia, and it's so carbon intensive that it doesn't
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: meet those requirements. So Europe is forced to try and
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: find another source of these materials. And on top of that,
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: they have very strict recycling rates that they'll have to
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: hit over the next several years. It sort of forces
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: industry within the EU to develop recycling and refining technologies.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: And then on top of that, if you do recycle
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: the batteries, there and you produce this black mass. They've
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: also now classified this black mass as a very specific
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: type of hazardous waste, which means that it's very difficult
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: and nearly impotus to ship the black mass between country
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: borders within the EU.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: Uh huh. Arguably a self defeating regulation, but perhaps good
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: for your business, great for.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: End cycle because we are the only one of the
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: only modular technologies that can go into each country and
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: help them turn that black mass into a product that
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: they can easily move across borders. Right, So again, this
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: distributed modular refining approach is quickly becoming the only way
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: that they'll be able to solve these challenges within the EU.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: And then I think similar to here in the US, right,
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: we have not been able to build sort of traditional
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: technology here.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: So when are you going to turn on the first
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: oyster in Europe?
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: So the goal would be twenty twenty six. So we're
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: working with some partners now to try and solidify what
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: those projects will look like, but starting construction in twenty
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: twenty six is the goal.
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: So we've been talking about nickel. Is that going to
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: be your main output for a while? I mean, can
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: it be anything that's can it be lithium, Can it
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: be cobalt? Like, how does that work?
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: Yes, the main product out of the system is like
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: a mixture of cobalt and nickel. Actually it's called nickel MHP,
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: which is a very industry specific term. It's just a
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: nickel product. We also produce a lithium product out of
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: the black mass as well. And then in development, we
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: have a new system for copper, so a lot of
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: our partners have copper scrap. We're also talking some copper
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: mining companies about some of the issues they're having to
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: deploy the technology there.
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: And then we also have one for rare earths.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: So the rare earths are the metals in think like
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: the magnets that are in your motors, in the wind
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: turbines that you might see hopefully in your backyard. So
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: it's two other systems to try and produce as much
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: of these critical minerals as we possibly can, because they
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: all face the same challenges, right, they're all refined. The
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: vestnory them are fined overseas, and it causes again a
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: big national security issue and just limits us into how
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: quickly we can build these technologies here in the US
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: and Europe.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: We'll be back in just a minute. What's the rate
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: limiting step for you and expanding?
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: I'd say the rate limiting step for us now is
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: a combination of funding and just the team.
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: So, I think we're ready to go, and we will
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: be fundraising in the next several months to go out
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: and do these projects, and then with that funding, we'll
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: build the team that we need to go execute.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, in terms of funding, if you sign a
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: contract with some company to do refining as a service
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: for them, can you borrow against that contract to build
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: the thing that they promised to pay you to use? Yeah,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: Like a factory is a classic thing that it's collateral.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: You could borrow money in it. Or is it not
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: collateral because nobody's ever built one before and the bank
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: doesn't try it.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: We're somewhere in the middle. So we're in this for
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: folks out there who may be building or have heard
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: of other startups going through this phase, it's called like
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: the scale gap, the missing middle.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: Huh, you got one and you want ten? And how
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: do you get there?
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: And you get the money?
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: Because we still have some technical risk right of course,
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: because it's a second of a kind and a first
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: of its kind.
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: Ohio is our first a kind.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: So there's a whole bunch of folks who are dealing
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: with the same thing and trying to find like what
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: does that financing look like for this type of risk profile.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: But there is money out there, and I do think
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: that again given the space that we're in and where
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: we are with with Ohio and the next projects, and
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: like you said, the contracts will be everything to show
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: that there is market poll for our technology.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: What are you trying to figure out now? What's sort
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: of the frontier for you?
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: So what we're trying to figure out now is how
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: do we translate this technology that we are expanding within
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: this scrap recycling space with into the mining space. I
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: think the whole goal of in Cycle was to try
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: and you know, create the most robust supply chains that
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: we possibly can for these critical minerals and you know,
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: build a clean energy economy on the cleanest source of materials.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: You know what really killed me at the end of
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: the day when I was starting about thinking the company
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: is like, gosh, we are building this like quote unquote
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: clean energy economy on a dirty source of material So
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: we continue to make the same problems in industry that
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: we have in the past, and so that was really
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: like the core of why I wanted to start and
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: cycle and the application of scrap recycling came from that.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: And then the goal and the dream is really to
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: start to do this in the mining space, because that's
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: where you can have like massive, massive impact. I mean,
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: there's just orders of magnitude more material process per year
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: from mine than there is from recycling. And the goal
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: is to eventually recycle enough material to have it all
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: in circulation so that you can just solely rely on recycling.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: Even if you are recycling everything, assuming people are switching
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: to evs over time, you'll still need a lot of
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: new lithium and nickel and cobalt out of the ground.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: For in the next several decades. Absolutely, So that's where
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: I think mining gets this bad rap. But we have
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: to continue to mine materials to push forward in the
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: clean energy economy. We like you said, there is not
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: enough recycling material out there to be even if you
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: recycled one hundred percent of it, it does not get
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: you enough cobalt and nickel or lithium or whatever material
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: you're looking at to be able to meet demand. But
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: what we're really targeting is how do you turn on
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: these existing or bodies that haven't been developed yet. Right,
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: So there is cobalt, there is nickel, there is copper.
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: Here in the US, there's not a ton of mining
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: that happens because the refining piece is so environmentally damaging, right,
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: and people don't want in their backyards.
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: And I wouldn't either.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: I understand the sort of the pain with that. But
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: if you can develop a technology that overcomes and doesn't
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: have all the waste that's associated with the traditional refining
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: and can have the same unit economics and justify opening
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: up these smaller minds because they are much much smaller
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: than what you'd see overseas. Right, So again the technology
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: is a mismatch for the source of materials. That's really
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: where this innovation can have a major, major impact of
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: like getting more of these minds online and getting the
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: US to have a mining industry. Again, it's really the
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: technology that I think will unlock that. And that's sort
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: of the new frontier front cycle is is I have
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: a team of folks sort of looking at what are
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: the right applications in mining for US, and you know,
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: does the technology need to look any different. So the
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: chemistry basis, the cells will work exactly the same, it's
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: just the system will likely have to look different.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: It's refining either way. It's refining either way, refining now,
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: but instead of the input being black masks shredded up batteries,
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: it'll be a lot of dirt with a little.
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: Bit exactly exactly right.
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: So, there are a few other battery recycling companies in
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: the US, including one started by the guy who actually
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: started Tesla's aby, Redwood Materials. So tell me sort of
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: how how you fit in that broader context of the industry.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: Yes, there's many companies. Redwood is one of the largest
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: companies who works in the battery cycling space, especially here
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: in the US, and their strategy is battery to battery, right.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: They are solely battery recyclers who want to produce some
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: type of end battery product. Forether it's a chemical that
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: goes into batteries, or the cathode that goes to the batteries,
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: or the battery itself. So what they're trying to do
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: is really build out that entire supply chain from collecting
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: the batteries shredding those batteries into black mass, they want
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: to refine those materials, and then they want to be
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: a manufacturer, So they.
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: Want to be a company that buys old batteries and sells.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: Exactly And I think that's very needed in the space.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: Right there's a lot of steps in the supply chain
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: that need to be built.
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: Here.
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: What end cycle does is just the refining piece, and
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: so these companies are using very traditional technology from the
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: mining space, and so what we're providing and we partner
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: with a lot of these companies, is just a new
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: technology that is cheaper, more efficient to be able to
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: process these batteries.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: Maybe that's like the wrong industry for me to be
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: thinking about. Is the right industry for me to be
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: thinking about? Refining? Is the right question? Who else is
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: trying to new and better ways.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: Of There's not a ton of companies in the space.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: There are a few of us who are solely focused
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: on the refining piece and who are trying to take
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: this modular approach. I would say we're one of the
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: only ones that takes more than batteries. There's a lot
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: of refining companies focused on black mass in particular. But
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: again we said, like, look, even if you're recycled one
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: hundred percent of batteries. You're not going to get enough nickel,
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: as we talked about earlier, or coboth or lithium. And
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: so from the beginning, you know, we tried to build
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: a technology that could be very flexible in the types
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: of materials we can put in on the front end.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: And so I would say we're one of the only
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: companies in the space that diversified. But yeah, one or
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: two others in the US and Europe that are sort
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: of in the same exact space.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: That we are. Why might you fail if you don't
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: make it? Why wouldn't you make it?
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: One of the reasons we couldn't make it is if
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: technology adoption right, if we start to have massive shifts
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: in the regulatory environment, which some folks in the climate
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: technology space, which some people would put us in, are
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: showing to feel that now the market really slows and
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: startups need to move at a very fast pace and
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: make a lot of progress because we have limited cash right,
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: because we're fun raising to survive until we build systems
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: that can generate consistent cash flow. And so when markets
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: slow down is when startups die.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: And in your case, is that fundamentally the EV market like,
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: what is the key market you're thinking of when you say.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: That, I think capital markets in general. Right, it makes
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: it hard for companies to fundraise.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: So you mean, if like there's a recession, then venture
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: capital pulls back and people don't want to do hard
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: tech anymore. That's a more macro kind of hard tech winter.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: Right. The macro environment can can really challenge startups being
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: able to fundraise and then market specific. Yeah, so if
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: for some reason, the current administration or whatever, a region
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: around the world you're working in, for some reason moves
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: away or stops prioritizing that industry.
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: EV's is an example.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: Yes, it can really tank startups, right, because we looked
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: at that as a company, and I try to tell
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: this too as many folks who will listen who are
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: starting to build a company as well. It's like you
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: need to think about how you diversify from the very beginning.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: And so that's why while we work within the battery
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: an EV space to recycle that black mass as we
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: talked about, or refine that black mass, we also refine
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: other scrap materials like catalysts from oil and gas, and
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: there's a whole slew of industrial scrap that has nothing
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: to do with the EV industry that has been around
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: for decades and will continue.
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: To be around for decades.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: So if for some reason, the EV market tanks and
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: cobalt and nickel are no longer a desirable material, which
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: we don't expect to happen. You know, we have a
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: copper system, we have the rare system, so you know,
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: we try to diversify enough to be able to have
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: a business for whatever comes right, because we have no
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: idea what the next you know, eight years will look like, right,
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: ten years, twelve years, as we're you know, continuing to
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: scale the business in different directions. So I think macro
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: environment and when markets change or when startups can fail, what's.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: The happy story for you? What's that you don't fail story?
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: I think encycle becomes the leader and the go to
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: technology for refining for both mining companies and recycling companies.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: And I think there's a real and likely possibility that
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: happened because of just the way that you know, we
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: spend a lot of time trying to figure out what
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: are the real pain points in this industry, and I
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: feel like the team that I've assembled and the technology
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: that we've built solves those problems, and we're starting to
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: see that in real time, and so I think, you know,
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: I'm hoping in three to five to ten years and
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: cycle is the go to refining technology that you see
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: for critical minerals in the space, whether it's again on
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: the recycling or the mining side.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: Of the world.
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: We'll be back in a minute with the lightning round.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: Let's finish with the lightning round. What's your favorite element?
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: Oh, what's my favorite element?
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: I really like I love green and the nickel product
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: we produce as green, So I'll say nickel, even though
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: that's what I've been.
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: Talking about the whole time.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: What kind of green? Like?
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: It is pretty green?
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: It's likeugh, I wish I could show a picture, but
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: it's like a almost like a bright emerald, I would say.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: So it's actually like I love metal chemistry in general
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: because you just see such beautiful colors like cobalt blue.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: Cobalt can be pink, nichols green. The mix of cobalts
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: in nickel is like a turquoise. So it's very beautiful
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: chemistry that happens.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: Why do PhD students make good founders?
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: So I always make the joke that PhD students make
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: the best founders because we're used to being poor and
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: we're used to failing a lot, and you have to
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: fail and learn from failure as a founder, and that's
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: like a fundamental thing that you learn during your PhD,
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: or at least I learned during my PhD. And so
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: I think that's why a lot of us make good founders,
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: just because of those two things.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: You know what I really want to talk about spin class.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: Is it true that you became a spin instructor to
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: learn how to be a public speaker.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: I did, and also to make money because again, as
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: a grad student, I was poor. I did it to
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: push myself out of my comfort zone, right. I really
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: really struggled with public speaking, like I would be shaking,
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: I sweating everywhere.
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: I mean, it was awful.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: And I had to get over my fear of talking
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: in front of people because I loved communicating science in
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: a way that people understood. And so I said, okay,
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: I didn't want to go like I got advice to
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: go do like a theater class, you know, improv and
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: I was like, ah, that's not really my jam. I
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: like working out, and I said, oh, like, maybe I'll
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: try teaching spin class and I actually didn't use a
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: microphone for many, many years because I forced myself to
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: speak loudly, speak clearly, and to project my voice. And
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: so my husband, who was my boyfriend at the time
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: when I was at Duke teaching spin. If anyone's been
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: to the Duke gym, it's three floors and the spin
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: was on the very bottom floor and the entrance was
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: like three floors up, and he always left because he
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: could always hear me screaming in these spin classes. He's like, oh,
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: my girlfriend is teaching. I can hear her. But I
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: really tried to do that and it helped, I think,
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: prepare me for being a CEO and a founder, because
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: you had to be a leader in those rooms. You
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: had to you know, inspire and keep people most motivated.
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: And those are the same skills that you need in
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: this position, especially when you're a small team and going
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: through you know, really difficult things. And still, I mean,
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: we're eight years in and there's still challenges every single day.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: And so I think that's mostly what I learned from
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: being as man intactor is just I love the motivational
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: piece of it. It helped me with public speaking, and
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: you just you get to learn a different side of people, right,
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: Like you get to be there in moments where they're
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: not doing well, in moments when they're feeling great about themselves,
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: and I thought that was very rewarding and just helping them,
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: you know, it's like your me time in the day.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: That's how I think about exercising, and so I loved
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: being part of that in their day.
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: Have you ever faked resistance? Yes? Of course does everybody.
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: I don't know if everyone does, But when you're teaching
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: for an hour, you know.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: What, that makes me feel better. I have a peloton
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: and I'm in reasonably good shape, but like I fall
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: apart when I do, like an interval ride, and when
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: the instructor is not falling apart, I'm like, either she's
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: in incredible shape, or she's faking it or both.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: I guess yes, you can usually tell when people are
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: not faking it because it is a skill and you're
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: just an incredible shape, and it's shape that you quickly
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: fall out of, like talking at that volume and projecting
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: your voice while you're breathing so heavily and exercising. It's
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: something that you have to learn how to do, and
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: so you can hear in people's voices when they're really working,
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: because it's hard to start to not like be breathing
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: into the microphone so heavily.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well that's actually as I'm sure you know
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: when they talk about like zone two training, which is
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: just like chill cardio. The classic sort of heuristic is
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: when you can carry on a conversation, right, and so
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: if you're doing a real interval, you shouldn't be able
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: to talk normally, you should not.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, at least when I was an instructor. Unfortunately, not anymore,
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: or at least not right now. Yeah, you some like
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: I tried my best because I always say like, I'm
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: doing the same resistance to you, and I would be
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: truthful in that, like if I was really doing that resistance,
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: I would say that to try to motivate people. But
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: there are some points where like I had taught five
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: classes a week and I was like, I can't do it.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: I can't do it. I just have to be at
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: a lower resistance and even if I want to climb.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: Did you have like a favorite cliche motivational phrase as
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: an instructor.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: Yes, you can do anything for a minute. You can
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: literally do anything for a minute, and I used to
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: say that. I used to scream that at people, like
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: we're going up a hill. You can do anything for
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: a minute. Just keep going, don't psyche yourself out.
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: You can do this.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: And so I say that even to myself now whenever
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: I'm doing something and you can do anything for a minute.
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: Megan O'Connor is the co founder and CEO of NTH Cycle.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: Please email us at problem at pushkin dot fm. We
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: are always looking for new guests for the show. Today's
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: show was produced by Trinamnino and Gabriel Hunter Chang. It
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: was edited by Alexander Garrettson and engineered by Sarah Bruguheer.
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Goldstein and we'll be back next week with
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: another episode of What's Your Problem.