Latest / Beyond Labels Premium / Episode #179: Historic Lawsuit Against Big Food & How Big Tobacco's Shaped Our Food Supply

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Episode #179: Historic Lawsuit Against Big Food & How Big Tobacco's Shaped Our Food Supply · Beyond Labels Premium

0:00
SPEAKER_01: From about 1988 to about 2001, you know, somewhere roughly in that period of time, big tobacco ended up dominating the food industry.
0:12
SPEAKER_01: And they created a blueprint for ultra-processed foods.
0:17
SPEAKER_01: And those food products still can impact our health today because many of them that they that their researchers, their scientists created are still on the market to this day.
0:30
SPEAKER_01: So if we go back to 1963.
0:36
SPEAKER_00: Hi everybody, welcome to another episode of Beyond Labels with your hosts, yours truly, Joel Salatin, the farmer, and our favorite researcher, Dr.
0:45
SPEAKER_00: Cena McCullough.
0:47
SPEAKER_00: There's been a lot of press lately regarding ultra-processed food.
0:54
SPEAKER_00: The numbers are staggering.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: Ultra processed means, by definition, and Cena, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that ultra-processed simply means that it is something that basically can't be done in your kitchen.
1:17
SPEAKER_00: There are chemical additives, there are manipulations, there are uh the different uh handlings of the food that manipulate it in such a way that in your normal kitchen, like if you ever tried to make MSG in your kitchen, you know, uh so um this is kind of the definition of ultra process.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: And the Amaha movement uh with RFK Jr.
1:42
SPEAKER_00: and other things are really shedding light on this, as well as now uh kind of a better, a better understanding and a better picture of how big tobacco, as they egg as they you know diversified from tobacco, moved into big food, and uh and that has stimulated a lot of this uh ultra-processed element.
2:06
SPEAKER_00: And so here to bring us up to speed is Cena, and um we'll enjoy what she's uncovered.
2:14
SPEAKER_01: Right.
2:14
SPEAKER_01: Okay, yes.
2:15
SPEAKER_01: So I want to start out by saying that one of the reasons why it's so confusing when we use the term ultra-processed food is because there's no agreed upon definition of what that actually means.
2:30
SPEAKER_01: So we have like our unprocessed foods, which would be the whole foods, like the fruits and the vegetables, you know, the egg, um, like nuts that haven't been processed.
2:41
SPEAKER_01: So think of Whole Foods.
2:42
SPEAKER_01: Those are what we consider the unprocessed food.
2:45
SPEAKER_01: Then you move to like processed ingredients, and these are going to be things that like like butter, um, for example.
2:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, so even honey will be considered processed, right?
2:58
SPEAKER_01: If it's if it's been um, you know, heated or things like that.
3:03
SPEAKER_01: Then you have processed and then you have ultra-processed.
3:06
SPEAKER_01: So we have all these different categories with no real agreement-upon definition, but in in terms of what we're talking about today, I'm considering ultra-processed foods as things like soda and a lot of like frozen meals and um bread, most bread that you would buy from the supermarket, cakes, cookies, um, you know, potato chips, um, uh crackers, things like this.
3:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, and you can see the little nuance because a potato chip, it still looks like you just cut a potato, right?
3:44
SPEAKER_01: But we're considering it ultra-processed.
3:46
SPEAKER_01: Um, a lot of times it's because of the the added ingredients in it, uh, like the artificial colors or flavorings or the preservatives or the emulsifiers.
3:56
SPEAKER_01: But particularly what's I think harmful about a true ultra-processed food is when there's added unhealthy fats or sugars or salts to it.
4:10
SPEAKER_01: And it it is the combination, the quantities, the ratios of these that are added to make them what we call hyper palatable, uh, which we'll get into in just a bit.
4:22
SPEAKER_01: It's it's that kind of scientifically derived ratio of those elements that make it hyperpalatable that are what I'm kind of referring to as ultra-processed foods here.
4:35
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
4:36
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, Cena, we have a um we we in Augusta County here where we live, we have a little Debbie's plant, um, a little Debbie's plant.
4:45
SPEAKER_00: And I know people who work there, and that plant uses over a million pounds of sugar a week.
4:52
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
4:53
SPEAKER_00: Over a million pounds of sugar a week.
4:55
SPEAKER_00: They at they actually use way more pounds of sugar than flour.
5:01
SPEAKER_01: You know, that makes a lot of sense because I I pulled a stat here, and um, you know, it's hard to measure, but we're talking about like how much sugar and flour people eat a year.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: And it's estimated that per person per year we eat 152 pounds of sugar and 133 pounds of flour.
5:22
SPEAKER_01: Isn't crazy?
5:23
SPEAKER_01: Imagine carrying 150 pounds around with you, right?
5:27
SPEAKER_01: That's that's more than my body weight.
5:29
SPEAKER_01: So that would be like me eating more than myself uh in in the amount of sugar, like per year.
5:36
SPEAKER_01: That's just you don't need that, you know, that's not necessary consumption, but yeah, that's crazy.
5:43
SPEAKER_01: So, Joel, what I find really excited about this and why I wanted to talk about this today is because this is the first time in my knowledge that um that so many aspects of our culture are fighting against um one particular food group.
6:05
SPEAKER_01: You know, like we we had alcohol that was banned, but I consider this a little bit different, um, and we'll get into the reasons why.
6:12
SPEAKER_01: But right now, this is proving to be the current like food fight of the century, you know, for both big food and big ag.
6:21
SPEAKER_01: And I say that because we're gonna talk, we're gonna go into this, but we have state, the um, we have state legislators, you know, governors, we have the federal government, we have the judicial branch, and we have academia and obviously citizens all challenging them, right?
6:39
SPEAKER_01: They're all coming out and attacking them at the same time.
6:42
SPEAKER_01: So they really have a fight going on right now.
6:45
SPEAKER_01: And we're I'm I'm curious to track this and see what happens and what Kennedy is going to do about this.
6:50
SPEAKER_01: So, so let's go um through each of those levels to just update you real fast on what's happening.
6:56
SPEAKER_01: And then let's get into this whole connection with how big tobacco has largely shaped um our food supply in terms of processed food.
7:07
SPEAKER_01: So I wanted to first talk about, as you know, Kennedy has pledged to remove processed foods from school lunches and restrict certain food additives like dyes.
7:18
SPEAKER_01: He also wants to shift federal agricultural subsidies away from the commodity crops that are widely used in these ultra-processed foods.
7:27
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so we already know we're all well aware that Kennedy has targeted ultra-processed foods and subsidies and whatnot.
7:35
SPEAKER_01: So this brings in big food and big ag at the same time.
7:39
SPEAKER_01: Now we have the California governor, who on January 3rd of this year, he issued an executive order that directed certain state agencies within California to recommend actions to target ultra-processed foods.
7:56
SPEAKER_01: Um, and this is because of related health concerns within their state, he said.
8:00
SPEAKER_01: Um he goes, uh Newsom said, the governor is um is Newsom, uh, Gavin Newsom, and he said in a statement, the food we eat shouldn't make us sick with disease or lead to lifelong consequences.
8:14
SPEAKER_01: We're going to work with industry, consumers, and experts to crack down on ultra-processed foods and create a healthier future for every Californian.
8:22
SPEAKER_01: So he's he's um directed like the Department of Public Health, Department of Social Services, Department of Healthcare Services, and the State Board of Education and the California Department of Education.
8:35
SPEAKER_01: He's given them each directives to go through and basically find out what he can do to improve to change their food supply.
8:46
SPEAKER_01: So it's like a superseding of federal and uh superseding of dietary guidelines, right?
8:53
SPEAKER_01: Like they're gonna forge their own path.
8:54
SPEAKER_01: At least that's what he's trying to do.
8:56
SPEAKER_01: Now, I like this because it's bringing power back to the states, right?
9:00
SPEAKER_01: Like where I think that the power should be.
9:02
SPEAKER_01: The question is, what is he gonna do?
9:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, there's talk about is he going to ban things?
9:07
SPEAKER_01: Is he going to tax things?
9:10
SPEAKER_01: Is he going to require different types of labels?
9:13
SPEAKER_01: Um, there's talk of maybe he's going to remove certain foods from the welfare programs, from school lunches, from hospital meals.
9:21
SPEAKER_01: Um and so we'll see.
9:23
SPEAKER_01: We'll see what happens.
9:25
SPEAKER_01: Um, they in September, Newsom signed into legislation that Assembly Bill 2316.
9:33
SPEAKER_01: And that's what already banned the schools there, the public schools in California from using any of the six synthetic dyes.
9:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, and again, we reported on that.
9:44
SPEAKER_01: That takes effect in 2027, but now he's going beyond that to target the ultra-processed foods themselves.
9:49
SPEAKER_01: So we'll keep you updated on what that state is able to do.
9:52
SPEAKER_01: But the point is now you have federal pressure and you've got state pressure coming down.
9:58
SPEAKER_01: And now we also have more studies that have just come out that are targeting um seed oils, which seed oils make up a big uh a big amount of a large amount of the calories that are in these ultra-processed foods come from from seed oils.
10:18
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
10:19
SPEAKER_01: And one of I just wanted to briefly tell you what these studies are showing, not go into any detail.
10:26
SPEAKER_01: So one of the studies came out of um University of California, Los Angeles, and they were trying to study the effect of different oils on the progression of cancer.
10:38
SPEAKER_01: And what they saw was that basically, if you're consuming less of these seed oils with these with less omega-6 fatty acids, that it will slow down the progression of cancer.
10:52
SPEAKER_01: And these are things that most of us have already known, but now they're showing these in these studies.
10:58
SPEAKER_01: So seed oils are the ones we're talking about are more of what we call the hated eight.
11:05
SPEAKER_01: That's a term that has now come out to differentiate between different seed oils.
11:10
SPEAKER_01: The oils that we're particularly talking about are the ones that are highly refined.
11:15
SPEAKER_01: So, like cold-pressed seed oil that's like flaxseed, that's and that you know, that has enough antioxidants so it doesn't become oxidized and rancid, that's a different category.
11:25
SPEAKER_01: These are the ones that are highly refined.
11:28
SPEAKER_01: They have a lot of heat and they often have chemical solvents added to them so that they can be turned into these food-like substances.
11:37
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
11:38
SPEAKER_01: When you add the heat and you add the chemical solvents, you strip away the nutrition, the antioxidants, vitamins, minerals, and you are left with oftentimes high levels of omega-6 fatty acids that are oxidized.
11:54
SPEAKER_01: And that's where it becomes dangerous.
11:57
SPEAKER_01: So these would be oils like canola, corn, cottonseed, grapeseed, rice bran oil, safflower, soybean, and sunflower.
12:08
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so those are the oils we're talking about.
12:10
SPEAKER_01: So in this study, they showed that you can slow the cancer progression if you take out these omega-6 uh fatty acids from the diet.
12:20
SPEAKER_01: All right.
12:21
SPEAKER_01: And then there was another study that showed that uh in 80 patients with colon cancer, they found that um if they consumed these oils that are high in rancid omega-6 fatty acids, it accelerated the growth of the tumors.
12:45
SPEAKER_01: So what they're saying is that consuming large amounts of seed oils has been linked to inflammation in the body for a long time.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: But now the study analyzed like tumors themselves, and they found that in these tumors, they have high levels of these certain omega-6 type of fats in them.
13:07
SPEAKER_01: And those fats promoted inflammation within the tumor itself.
13:15
SPEAKER_01: So they're finding this within the tumor.
13:17
SPEAKER_01: It promotes inflammation, which helps that tumor grow, and it stops the body or it lowers the body's ability to be able to fight the tumors, like to be able to actually get rid of them.
13:29
SPEAKER_01: So the researchers of this study are urging people to swap seed oils for other oils like olive oil, avocado oil.
13:40
SPEAKER_01: All right.
13:41
SPEAKER_01: So, um, of course, at the same time, the American Heart Association has come out saying, no, no, there's no evidence that consuming these seed oils contribute to any of these conditions.
13:53
SPEAKER_01: And as of right now, Joel, it's my understanding they're still pushing these seed oils in the dietary guidelines.
13:59
SPEAKER_01: All right.
14:00
SPEAKER_01: So a couple of studies.
14:03
SPEAKER_01: Um, there's more studies.
14:05
SPEAKER_01: I can link them in the show description so people can see them for themselves.
14:09
SPEAKER_01: Um, but basically, it comes down to what you and I have talked about time and time again on this program.
14:14
SPEAKER_01: It comes down to balance.
14:16
SPEAKER_01: So when you consume these oils, you're having high expression of these omega-6 metabolites and low expression of the enzymes or the compounds that can resolve inflammation.
14:25
SPEAKER_01: And so we're ending up with metabolic imbalance.
14:29
SPEAKER_01: So you've got the state coming after it, you got the federal coming after it, you got the studies that are now showing it's bad.
14:35
SPEAKER_01: And now we have um we have people on Capitol Hill who are also sounding the alarm over ultra-processed food, and it's crossing political lines.
14:48
SPEAKER_01: So we have, for instance, um Bernie Sanders and Ron Johnson and Corey Booker.
14:55
SPEAKER_01: So Bernie Sanders is an independent, Ron Johnson's a Republican, and Corey Booker is a Democrat.
15:00
SPEAKER_01: Um, and they're all working together to uh basically change the scope of the landscape of our food supply.
15:10
SPEAKER_01: Sanders introduced a legislation in 2024 that could lead to a federal ban on junk food being advertised to children.
15:19
SPEAKER_01: And um on he wants them to label ultra-processed food, saying that the prop those products are not recommended for children.
15:28
SPEAKER_01: And so Booker co-signed that legislation along with some other Democrats.
15:34
SPEAKER_01: Um, there was also a Senate committee on health education, labor, and pension in December, where the FDA um commissioner called for more funding for it.
15:46
SPEAKER_01: And he brought up the concept that the same neuronal circuits in the brain that are involved with ultra-processed foods are also involved with opioid addiction.
15:59
SPEAKER_01: So he's saying that there is this growing evidence that they are addictive and they're gonna look more into it.
16:04
SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, the FDA has done something again, Joel.
16:08
SPEAKER_01: Like, I can't believe it.
16:10
SPEAKER_01: They're doing more stuff.
16:12
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like just the threat of Kennedy getting in there is making them do things.
16:17
SPEAKER_01: So on January 14th, the FDA announced that it's proposing a new label.
16:24
SPEAKER_01: So here we go again.
16:26
SPEAKER_01: The answer, of course, Joel, is another label.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: This is a label that would go on the front of the package and it would appear on like these ultra-processed foods, for example, um, to give to make the information about the food's saturated fat, sodium, and added sugar content more visible to the consumer.
16:48
SPEAKER_01: So it's not, you know, it's not that it's gonna put like a warning label or anything on it.
16:53
SPEAKER_01: It's basically gonna take the nutrition part, that part of the nutrition fact panel that's usually on the back, and it's gonna stick it on the front.
17:02
SPEAKER_01: So we'll see if that does anything.
17:05
SPEAKER_01: I mean, who knows?
17:06
SPEAKER_01: Maybe, maybe that's all we need, Joel, is one more label on the front of a package with amongst all its busyness, and then and then the person will say, wait a minute, that has sugar in it.
17:24
SPEAKER_00: You know, I I think I think Cena um well, a I'm I'm not sure that that's all it'll take.
17:31
SPEAKER_00: Um but but I I do I do wonder if there isn't a kind of a a two-prong approach here that that the the the more you know the more prominent display of the information um coupled with I mean somehow you have to get the culture, if you will, uh more broadly to understand you can't just gum up your body and expect a pharmaceutical company to fix you.
18:11
SPEAKER_00: We we have this mentality in our country that oh, I I can I can eat, I can do, I can you know, I I can live however I want to, and um, and you know, if something breaks, well, you know, there's a drug to fix me.
18:24
SPEAKER_00: And and if you if you can if you can link those two, the idea of, you know, the drug, the drug panacea and the dietary uh gunk, if you can ever marry those two, you know, then that might be enough.
18:40
SPEAKER_00: But I I think I think as long as people assume that well that you know if there's anything wrong with me, a drug company can fix it.
18:48
SPEAKER_00: Um I'm not sure a label is enough.
18:51
SPEAKER_00: But but you know, you are speaking to a um an unprecedented pushback from many different areas as the as the ultra-processed, well, again, just as as the health of the country deteriorates and more and more people look at the situation, the culprits, the culprits are starting to come forth.
19:17
SPEAKER_00: And you know, in 1960, we found, you know, the the the eagle eggs that wouldn't hatch and the three-legged amphibians and uh uh salamanders and and and infertile frogs, the finger finally pointed on DDT.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it took a few years, but it it did point on DDT.
19:36
SPEAKER_00: And so I think culturally we're in, we might be in the same kind of uh um, you know, progression here, you know, with ultra-processed.
19:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I no, I completely agree, and we do need to have them make that connection.
19:53
SPEAKER_01: My concern with the FDA's label is that the examples they gave that they put on the front of the package are saturated fat with sodium and added sugar content.
20:04
SPEAKER_01: So they're targeting the saturated fat again, and those are different than the seed oils are poofas, they're polyunsaturated fatty acids.
20:13
SPEAKER_01: So they're missing the boat here, you know.
20:16
SPEAKER_01: So if they want to put there's added sugar on it, okay, sure, bring the attention to that.
20:20
SPEAKER_01: But I I'm cautious about supporting their approach because once again, they're picking, they're picking what they want us to look out for.
20:34
SPEAKER_01: And it's looks like it's based on the dietary guidelines, which we, you know, which has gotten us along for it has gotten us to this point in part, is those dietary guidelines.
20:46
SPEAKER_01: So I don't want them to just now advertise those guide dietary guideline parameters front and center, you know.
20:53
SPEAKER_01: No, I mean, I'm more in favor of how if we're gonna do a label, I'm more in favor of Sanders label, where on those ultra-processed foods on the front, you'd say, aren't these are not recommended for children?
21:06
SPEAKER_01: Like that's that has more of an impact.
21:09
SPEAKER_01: Like, I think that's part of the problem with all these labels is that they almost they almost mean nothing to the consumer.
21:17
SPEAKER_01: Like, so what if now on the front of the label it says saturated fat, one gram, like sodium, such and such, like added added 10 grams of sugar.
21:27
SPEAKER_01: Like that really doesn't translate into much of anything for a consumer, you know?
21:34
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of look, all people care about is do I like to eat it?
21:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, will my kids eat that?
21:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, that's that that's really all they care about.
21:45
SPEAKER_00: I I don't want to hear, I don't want to hear whiny kids, and so you know, will my kids like it?
21:51
SPEAKER_00: And these these big companies, they know exactly how to manipulate the ingredients and the taste and the texture and the feel and all that to you know to get to get kids to to like it.
22:06
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
22:07
SPEAKER_01: Which ties into this um fourth prong that I was talking about of this huge fight of the century against big food and big ag.
22:19
SPEAKER_01: It is this on this judicial level.
22:22
SPEAKER_01: So there's this is historic.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: This is the first of its kind lawsuit has been filed alleging that these ultra-processed foods caused multiple illnesses in a teenager.
22:39
SPEAKER_01: Okay so this lawsuit was filed in December and it was filed against um I believe eleven different big food manufacturers including Coca-Cola, Nestle, PepsiCo, Canagra or Conagra, General Mills, Kraft, Mars, Mendelews International, Post Holdings, Kellogg, and Kellonova.
23:08
SPEAKER_01: So it's filed by a a person named with the last name Martinez, who's now 18, so we can share his name.
23:17
SPEAKER_01: He apparently developed diabetes and non-alcoholic fatty liver disease by the age of 16.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: And so now he wants to hold big food accountable for his his illnesses.
23:31
SPEAKER_01: According to the lawsuit the companies knew or should have known that the ultraprocessed foods were harmful and addictive.
23:41
SPEAKER_01: And it noted that this um this person who was a child at the time grew up eating heavily advertised brand name foods that are now staples of the American diet like sugary soft drinks, Cheerios and Lucky Charms, Skittles and Snickers, frozen and packaged dinners and you know and the list goes on.
24:01
SPEAKER_01: So basically they're saying that these diseases didn't exist you know before ultra-processed foods came about like they didn't exist in these high quantities and we're seeing an unprecedented number of these illnesses particularly among children and the lawsuit is saying that the defendants didn't warn the public including the children's of how harmful these foods are and they didn't properly test them for safety.
24:30
SPEAKER_01: They also are saying that they that these big food companies marketed and targeted children with unfair and deceptive messages regarding these ultra-processed foods much like the cigarette companies did.
24:47
SPEAKER_01: So um and they go through in you know in the documentation that they filed for this lawsuit they actually go through this um in terms of the playbook being very similar with uh big tobacco and big food in terms of getting these ultraprocessed foods uh you know into our food supply um and I want to go into that but first I do want to give you um a statistic that I thought was alarming that they're saying that 15% of teenagers have fatty liver disease 15% Joel like when I grew up we heard of fatty liver disease related to alcoholics yeah you know and now 15% of teenagers have fatty liver disease 38% of these teenagers are pre-diabetic and almost 50% of them are overweight or obese.
25:46
SPEAKER_01: Almost half of all teenagers are either overweight or over or obese that's shocking we you know we when we were growing up I remember there might be one child in the classroom that might be a little bit overweight like you know five 10 pounds overweight right we we could we call them pudgy pudgy yeah yeah but but 50 50 and now they're having these chronic diseases show up already this is this is crazy it's crazy so I wanted to go into a little bit next about um you know let's discuss how this actually happened how big tobacco basically uh gave us all of gave us the the vast majority of these ultra-processed foods that we have today so um from about 1988 to about 2001 you know somewhere roughly in that period of time big tobacco ended up dominating the food industry and they created a blueprint for ultra processed foods and those food products still can impact our health today because many of them that they that their researchers their scientists created are still on the market to this day so if we go back to 1963 we had RJ Reynolds which was one of you know the biggest tobacco companies they made camels and Newport cigarettes well in 1963 they acquired Hawaiian punch from Pacific Hawaiian products company so they merged now with with the food supply they expanded in 1979 to purchase Del Monte right we think of Del Monte as um providing fruit in 1985 they merged with Nabisco right and we think of Nabisco with products like Chips Ahoy and Ritz and Oreos so you can see they're um it's almost like creating um a monopoly or you know they're they're consolidating the food supply right by gobbling up all these different companies at the same time we have Altria and Altria was the parent company of Philip Morris um and marble cigarettes marble cigarettes so around the same time Altria acquired General Foods right and general foods owned Kool-Aid and Jell-O so basically you have these two the two of the biggest tobacco companies gobbling up um all of these different food companies um in in 1988 Altria acquired craft food and that brought foods into their portfolio like Tang and Capri Sun um in later that or sometime that year um lunchables were actually introduced by craft so lunchables were another one of these ultra-processed foods that you know are addictive uh then in night so by 1990 you basically have these two tobacco giants Altria and RJ Reynolds um that were not only the largest tobacco companies in the US but they were the two largest food companies in the world okay so so I think so in my recollection it starts around 1963 and by 1990 they became the two biggest so you know you've got what is that Joel it's not a monopoly but when you have two big companies oligarchy that's the word so like they created this oligarchy okay um in in and it they didn't stop in 2000 Altria bought um Nabisco from RJ Reynolds right so so now they got even bigger now they did start at around this time period they did start like spinning off companies uh to separate the association between big tobacco and big food okay so like Altria in 2007 spun off craft food as an independent company distancing itself from that but the th but the point is while big tobacco has divested from many of these food brands since then the impact they had remains deeply entrenched in the food industry they basically reshaped how food is manufactured how it's marketed and how it's consumed so the biggest legacy they actually left behind was this hyper palatability of food making it highly addictive so um one of the ways they did this is they worked with the scientists so they used you know what a big tobacco had these scientists that figured out like the exact nicotine level that would maximize addictiveness and added flavors and textures and mouthfeel um you know to to light up the brain's pleasure and reward centers right to to make these cigarettes addictive and and this is this is well known at this point all right so what they did was they brought that same cigarette playbook into the processed food world and they had some of the same researchers in fact who worked on nicotine addiction with cigarettes collaborate with companies like Kraft to understand how to change these flavor profiles and manipulate the the food chemicals to light up these same pleasure and reward centers to make these processed foods as addictive, you know, in hopes of just as addictive as cigarettes.
31:37
SPEAKER_01: You're gonna love this Joel another key player or another key part of the playbook was hiring certain consultants.
31:48
SPEAKER_01: So basically when they would come up with like a flavor right or some kind of chemical that was going to be added to either the cigarettes or the food okay so you would need to get that ingredient approved or at least on the table so that you can use that ingredient.
32:08
SPEAKER_01: So what did they do?
32:10
SPEAKER_01: Can you guess what loophole they used?
32:13
SPEAKER_00: Oh they used grass generally recognized as safe and they used consultants that were in the FDA fraternity the uh as RFK says the uh agency capture the revolving door to um to grease the wheels of the ingredients you're laughing like I just did a home run.
32:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah you're brilliant I mean see it's it it is it's not even surprising anymore when you uncover like the depths of this corruption because it's the same story over and over and over again, right?
32:52
SPEAKER_01: So some of this like I know in one particular case a food safety consultant who worked as a spokesperson for the tobacco industry in the 80s um he later joined uh the scientific advisory board and he was one of these top food panel experts to declare a chemical is grass.
33:12
SPEAKER_01: So this dual role meant he had the power to approve the chemicals for the foods and the cigarettes that the companies were making.
33:20
SPEAKER_01: Like it I mean you can't make this stuff up like it's just not surprising anymore.
33:27
SPEAKER_01: So um so basically the the lawsuit is saying that these tactics that they used for big food are the same ones that they used to make the cigarettes addicting.
33:38
SPEAKER_01: And they did it by engineering these hyper palatable foods which as I said in the intro these are the foods that have this perfect balance of added sugar, salt and fat that make you want to crave more.
33:51
SPEAKER_01: And this is kind of an interesting thing because one of the biggest differences between like a natural food and these ultra-processed food is that unique combination of, you know, as well as they also like I said add things like flavorings and stuff that light up that brain center.
34:11
SPEAKER_01: But if you look in nature so you're obviously you're not going to see these foods in nature but you also don't commonly see high fat high sugar foods together in nature.
34:26
SPEAKER_01: So there are some exceptions.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: So like cashews and pistachios those have a lot of fat and a lot of carbohydrates right um durian has a lot of fat and a lot of carbohydrate so the this is a rarity this is more of a um like an anomaly that you would see in nature to have one food that has a lot of fat and a lot of carbs in it at the same time and those are at least natural sugars right those are natural carbs that are in that food.
34:58
SPEAKER_01: The ultraprocessed foods are obviously these lab derived sugars a lot of them coming most likely from corn, GML corn, you know, that's treated with some kind of pesticide or herbicide.
35:11
SPEAKER_01: But it it is I think as a scientist and someone who's trying to understand why these foods are so addictive why as a mom I have a hard time when my children eat them getting them to stop eating them.
35:24
SPEAKER_00: And I think we were not designed to eat foods in this type of ratio and that's evidenced in nature by the few examples you can find of foods being both high in fat and high in carbs at the same time all right um and even those those aren't foods that we'd be eating all the time cashews and pistachios you wouldn't be walking around our ancient ancestors wouldn't walk around and have year-round access to cashew type and pistachio type foods you know yeah I I was just I was just thinking about foods that I really really like uh I mean I'm thinking of like well I so you know my my childhood in Venezuela I have a lifelong addiction to bananas um I mean that's when people ask me what's your you know what's your non-local uh hypocrisy um it's always bananas i you know we had bananas in the yard in Venezuela uh we I mean mom's got pictures of the back door coming out of the house there were all it was always a big stack of bananas you just grabbed one and ate it on the way and now you know we left there when I was four but you know by four uh you know a lot of your whatever your you know your your tastes and things are are developed you know for life anyway so for me it's bananas but um uh strawberries man you know I man do I love strawberries but when I think of addiction you know you don't just eat bananas until the whole bunch is gone you don't eat strawberries until the whole bowl is gone you eat a few but man Doritos um Lay's potato chips I mean you sit down with a bag and the next thing you know the bag is gone I mean it's just who I haven't I haven't eaten a whole bag any but man you know you've got you've got to really it takes willpower to pace yourself on that they they have this figure and and man as you're as you're explaining this I'm just thinking uh whoever this attorney is who's taking this teenager's case is he's brilliant because the tobacco companies lost I mean yes think of think about the years of of jousting you know uh that it took to finally get uh to get a guilty verdict on the tobacco companies and so to so it seems to me like just um politically politically the tobacco companies have a vulnerability here a a a political vulnerability that they lost big time once nobody trusts them and then I think when the average person finds out oh they're using the same labs the same scientists and the same protocol on food I mean they don't have any credibility that they just they just don't have any credibility and so this is um wow this is this is pretty this is pretty amazing yeah I I this could be earthshaking here this really could be earth shaking uh and so let's go through some more of what their the what their case is because they've pulled out some great things in this case like I think they have a a really good shot actually at at going somewhere with this uh you know as long as they don't settle right like um so I mean I mean think think of think about I mean think about glyphosate I mean most of us thought that that seemed to be a slam dunk but old Bayer Bayer is still making making uh roundup and it's still being applied and and uh that that billion dollar loss got shaved down to a few million it's still on the shelf so you know this is a it in a lot of ways this is really a more and of course cigarettes are still for sale too yeah uh but but but their their use has um has changed now now it's vaping uh vaping is the new say for for teens for young people it's vaping but anyway yeah go ahead and and run us through some of the points of the case um it interesting interesting stuff yes and and I will say and we can debate this too at the end but um I you know I'm not a proponent at least at this point of banning the foods right like I I'm like let the market speak but what I do love about this lawsuit is that I mean you know this is how we settle things in our culture is we don't bring in more government to like more to regulate things we go through lawsuits right and part of part of um going through this lawsuit is it has an opportunity to really bring a lot of awareness to people you know awareness of what these foods really are who's behind it like you know not that that demonizes them from the beginning just because they're associated with it you know we've talked about this like with Bill Gates for instance but when you understand the playbook that they use to create these foods it it brings it to a whole nother light like for me now I'm like I don't even want my kids to have any of these foods you know but uh but we can debate that later.
40:54
SPEAKER_00: So let me get into the different points that they're bringing up so um so part of the big problem is that these seeing Cena this is this is really timely because we're uh we're recording this two weeks before the Super Bowl and and if there if there's one if there's one um you know indulgent feast in the US that is that is all about junk uh it's it's got to be the Super Bowl and and isn't that funny that that defines you know the the junkiest uh feast in America but it celebrates arguably some of the best athletes in the whole country who who I guarantee you did not grow up on this but we're watching it and we're indulging in you know it's it's it's it's just a funny juxtaposition you know yes yes I mean we should provide some recipes some alternative recipes for people so they can still have their snack while they're watching eat some pork sticks from polyphase I love it I love it yeah it's um okay so one of the one of the problems is that these foods that they've created in the lab they disrupt our natural appetite regulation okay so when your kid eats the whole entire package of potato chips I mean it's literally like a drug in their body that's that's causing them to continue eating.
42:27
SPEAKER_01: So what happens is the food overstimulates the the dopamine response and dopamine's that feel-good neurotransmitter so it overstimulates it right so you're getting this um great amount of reward or pleasure uh experienced in the body that encourages you to eat more so one of the things that happens is um is when you the brain always wants to be in balance just like the whole body wants to be in balance and this sounds a little odd but when you experience what what people will term um a dopamine hit like from eating the food or getting a like on a social media post right we get these dopamine hits when you get that kind of dopamine hit the scale instead of being level it tips right it tips to the pleasure to bring the body back down to your baseline of homeostatic balance the brain overcompensates and it it dips too far the other way and that's uh a pain response so so we see this happen over and over you get pain and it overshoots uh sorry you get some pleasure and to rebalance it overshoots and you will experience pain and oftentimes this is a subconscious happening we're not really aware that the body is doing it you can become aware if you just bring attention to it so pain Pain doesn't necessarily mean you've got physical pain in the body.
44:03
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
44:04
SPEAKER_01: Pain can mean that feeling you have to eat another chip.
44:10
SPEAKER_01: You have to eat another chip.
44:11
SPEAKER_01: Right.
44:12
SPEAKER_01: You want it more.
44:13
SPEAKER_01: Like if you're, if you're playing, your child's playing video games and you're like, get off, get off the video game.
44:18
SPEAKER_01: Like we all have this problem, right?
44:20
SPEAKER_01: Get off, turn it off right now.
44:22
SPEAKER_01: There's that moment when they turn it off where they're in quote unquote pain.
44:28
SPEAKER_01: And they have to ride that situation out where you feel like you're missing something, right?
44:33
SPEAKER_01: You're longing for something.
44:35
SPEAKER_01: You need something to fulfill that space.
44:37
SPEAKER_01: And so it keeps you addicted to it.
44:39
SPEAKER_01: The food, this the ultra-processed food does the same thing.
44:42
SPEAKER_01: You hurt, you long for it because you're in that overcompensated pain space.
44:49
SPEAKER_01: So alongside that is that these highly processed foods stimulate opioid release in your hypothalamus.
45:00
SPEAKER_01: So, like when that FDA person was saying that it's possible these stimulate the same neural pathways in the brain that like a street drug would, there are studies that are showing that to be true, that you actually are releasing opioids.
45:16
SPEAKER_01: So you can technically call it um, you know, a drug, you can call these ultra-processed foods a drug because it's acting on the same neural pathways.
45:25
SPEAKER_01: So I found this study, Joel, that I thought was really cool and really alarming is that if you take rats and you stress them by starving them, and then you give them a small little morsel of uh ultra-processed food, and then you give them their bland chow, that small little morsel of the highly processed food will cause them to binge eat their chow.
45:57
SPEAKER_01: If you take the same food-deprived, stressed-out rats and you don't give them that small morsel of highly processed food before you give them the bland chow, they do not binge, they do not overeat on the bland chow.
46:18
SPEAKER_01: So it's saying that ultra-processed food hijacks your natural hunger cues, it causes you to overeat, right?
46:26
SPEAKER_01: And so and so that's one thing that the the lawsuit is you know um going toward is that it does stimulate these reward pathways, you know, overstimulates them, and it does act like a drug, it does trigger your uh um hijack your hunger cues, which can lead to weight gain and chronic diseases that are related to that weight gain and the inflammation.
46:49
SPEAKER_00: But you know, Cena, um, man, I we're this is so fascinating because when you look at some of the trajectories and stats on our culture right now, especially among our young people, what you're describing here is is a person who's in this um in this, let's just say an ultra-processed food diet.
47:15
SPEAKER_00: Remember, 77% of what Americans eat now is ultra-processed food.
47:20
SPEAKER_00: 77%.
47:22
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
47:22
SPEAKER_00: And and and if if what you're saying, and I I I have no reason to think what you're saying and the studies are showing is not true, what it does, I mean, think spiritually, philosophically, it puts you in a constant state of dissatisfaction.
47:38
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
47:38
SPEAKER_00: You you can never be satisfied.
47:41
SPEAKER_00: And boy, when we think about, well, I mean, we could we could go on all sorts of threads with that.
47:49
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the teen suicide rate, the bullying in school, the lack of of feeling uh self-worth, uh, I'm not good enough.
47:57
SPEAKER_00: I mean, look at the at the psychological things.
48:02
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I mean, teen psych wards are full all over the place.
48:07
SPEAKER_00: It it's it's it's it's an epidemic of this.
48:10
SPEAKER_00: And and so when you when you're constantly, and then you have TikTok, okay, um, but that that's showing you know beautiful bodies and beautiful occurrences and beautiful everything.
48:23
SPEAKER_00: Uh we're we're just we're just we're just immersing our culture in a physical, chemical, and social drive toward dissatisfaction.
48:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:46
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
48:47
SPEAKER_01: Yes, and you know, in fact, I was watching a video on addiction from one of the top, um she's one of the the top her name escapes me, but she's one of the top um like clinical therapists who has studied addiction and dopamine.
49:03
SPEAKER_01: And she works on at a university campus and she says that she sees all of these college students coming into her and they all come into see her, and they all have um like sadness andor depression and a feeling like um life is boring and they're totally dissatisfied.
49:26
SPEAKER_01: And a lot of them are computer science majors, and they'll say, Yeah, I'm not interested in my classes anymore.
49:32
SPEAKER_01: I thought that's what I wanted to study, but I don't I I it's so boring.
49:36
SPEAKER_01: I didn't want to pay attention in class.
49:38
SPEAKER_01: And she'll ask them, Do you play video games?
49:42
SPEAKER_01: And every single one of them plays video games.
49:44
SPEAKER_01: And she says, Okay, you've got this backwards.
49:47
SPEAKER_01: I just want you to try for 30 days to not play any video games and just see what happens.
49:53
SPEAKER_01: And she gives them steps because they're gonna go through pain, right?
49:56
SPEAKER_01: They're gonna go through that withdrawal of the pain.
49:58
SPEAKER_00: Right, right, sure.
49:59
SPEAKER_01: So every single one of them, she said they will, you know, she works with them, and after the 30 days, the response is, I love my computer science classes now.
50:08
SPEAKER_01: Like I love this field, and they're engaged again and they feel hope and joy again.
50:14
SPEAKER_01: And that's part of what she said is you can only do this dopamine response, like this um over-exaggerated dopamine response.
50:22
SPEAKER_01: You can only do it so many times, and then the body will adapt.
50:26
SPEAKER_01: It will end up changing your baseline, right?
50:29
SPEAKER_01: It's gonna like remove some of the receptors, for instance, so you're not over-stimulated.
50:34
SPEAKER_01: And so it's gonna take more to get you to have that happy feeling again.
50:40
SPEAKER_01: And so you will you will um change your baseline response, and it's gonna take you more.
50:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, it's you won't be able to find as much happiness and joy with everyday things in life because it takes a greater stimulus to make you happy, right?
51:00
SPEAKER_01: Because it has reset your own dopamine balance in your body.
51:04
SPEAKER_01: So what happens is she said there's there's data behind this 30-day abstinence.
51:11
SPEAKER_01: So it takes roughly 30 days to reset your baseline for your um for your body's proper dopaminergic baseline level.
51:23
SPEAKER_01: And and so that's why you have to go through the pain, the withdrawal.
51:27
SPEAKER_01: And this is with any addiction.
51:28
SPEAKER_01: This isn't just ultra-processed foods or video games.
51:31
SPEAKER_01: This could be an addiction to work, you know, which I tend to suffer from that, right?
51:37
SPEAKER_01: It can be an addiction to drugs or to alcohol.
51:40
SPEAKER_01: They're showing this with any type of addiction.
51:43
SPEAKER_01: There's this, there's this 30-day window where you go through the withdrawal, you go through that pain, but then you come out on the other side, a more positive, upbeat, connected, happy, joyful person that can engage in life and find value and worth because you have reset your body's natural dopaminergic balance, your system.
52:08
SPEAKER_00: Man, could this even have ramifications for our sexual identity problem?
52:14
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I didn't even think about that.
52:15
SPEAKER_00: But boys, you know, boys and girls dissatisfied with their body, with who I am, with what I am.
52:22
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I mean, listen, dissatisfaction, and I'm I meant that's not the right word, but but you know, dissatisfaction with yourself is is across a lot of things, you know, physical, mental, emotional, uh, you know, spiritually.
52:41
SPEAKER_00: It it goes through a lot of things.
52:44
SPEAKER_00: And um remember, uh, I don't know if you're old enough to remember uh when I was uh you were not even born when I was in high school, but um anyway, uh I I rem I remember the cultural like when when the when the drug drugs started coming in.
53:02
SPEAKER_00: Um they just started coming in when I was in high school.
53:04
SPEAKER_00: You never heard of anything.
53:06
SPEAKER_00: When I was in elementary school, you never heard of anything when I high school, then there started to be this this drug uh culture.
53:13
SPEAKER_00: You know, this is the early 70s, okay?
53:16
SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, you were you were not even yeah.
53:18
SPEAKER_01: I wasn't born yet.
53:20
SPEAKER_00: All right, early 70s.
53:21
SPEAKER_00: All right, but but I uh but I remember one of the one of the most powerful um slogans that was being used in those early days was God don't make no junk.
53:35
SPEAKER_00: In other words, it was trying to get young people the the the the drug uh as as it was trying to get inroads a foothold into the culture, um, it was playing on it was playing on the fact that this drug can satisfy you.
53:54
SPEAKER_00: And and so the the the the antidote that was created by you know school counselors and the you know the mental health professionals was this this whole thing.
54:04
SPEAKER_00: Now, I mean today our culture would never offer something like that in the schools.
54:09
SPEAKER_00: We don't think we can't even use the word God, okay?
54:11
SPEAKER_00: But but uh but back in those days it was God don't make no junk.
54:16
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I can remember it like yesterday.
54:17
SPEAKER_00: It was a it was it was in every school, it was everywhere, God don't make no junk.
54:21
SPEAKER_00: And it was it was about you trying to be to realize you know God didn't make me junk.
54:28
SPEAKER_00: That was the idea.
54:28
SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm not junk.
54:31
SPEAKER_00: I don't need drugs to satisfy me because I'm not junk.
54:35
SPEAKER_00: That was the idea.
54:36
SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
54:37
SPEAKER_00: It was it was a a massive, it was a massive cultural uh response to what people were concerned was this this little you know foothold that drugs were getting in the you know in the culture.
54:49
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
54:50
SPEAKER_01: Could you imagine?
54:51
SPEAKER_01: I mean, because that even takes confidence, right?
54:53
SPEAKER_01: That takes self-esteem.
54:55
SPEAKER_01: That you know, that lets you know you're valued and you you have worth by even just saying you're not junk, right?
55:02
SPEAKER_01: Whereas when I was in elementary school, it it was the DARE program, and it was, you know, it wasn't an uplifting thing, it was like dare to keep your kids off drugs.
55:11
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, like the responsibility went to my parents to make sure I didn't do it, you know.
55:17
SPEAKER_01: But it wasn't targeted at to me as an individual that you're value, you're worth enough, you don't need that, you know.
55:24
SPEAKER_01: Interesting shift, right?
55:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that is about a 20, 20 year, 20 year uh span there.
55:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
55:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
55:31
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
55:32
SPEAKER_01: And so this fits in with this other piece of um strategy that this lawsuit is using, uh using and um to build their case.
55:43
SPEAKER_01: And that is the marketing to children.
55:47
SPEAKER_01: So um so so Big Tobacco reengineered these foods, um, and then they also borrowed marketing strategies that they use to push cigarettes.
55:59
SPEAKER_01: So um, do you know Hawaiian Punch?
56:02
SPEAKER_01: Have you ever seen Hawaiian Punch, Joel?
56:04
SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah.
56:05
SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, I don't know.
56:07
SPEAKER_01: Like you seem very fringe.
56:11
SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
56:13
SPEAKER_00: No, I I I mean, I'm not sure I've ever drunk it, but I'm I'm familiar with the brand, yeah.
56:18
SPEAKER_01: Okay, and so um what happened was Hawaiian Punch was actually uh before it was bought by tobacco company, it was actually advertised as an adult beverage.
56:30
SPEAKER_01: Can you believe that?
56:31
SPEAKER_01: Hawaiian Punch was an adult beverage, and then um it got transformed by Big Tobacco into a kid-friendly product, and they did this um partly by creating a mascot, you know, punchy, the mascot of Hawaiian punch, right?
56:46
SPEAKER_01: Everyone knows punchy, and punchy would appear in the TV ads and on lunchboxes and the juice boxes, right?
56:53
SPEAKER_01: So um, likewise, Kool-Aid, which we totally think of as just a kid's drink.
56:59
SPEAKER_01: Kool-Aid was originally advertised to families.
57:02
SPEAKER_01: And then it was rebranded by the big tobacco company to target children directly.
57:08
SPEAKER_01: And they did that in part by creating that iconic Kool-Aid Man mascot.
57:13
SPEAKER_01: And they collaborated with toy brands like Barbie and Hot Wheels, and they also launched um a children's loyalty program that was modeled after the tobacco's incentive program.
57:25
SPEAKER_01: And that tobacco incentive program was um reportedly very successful in building a base of lifelong um customers for the cigarettes.
57:34
SPEAKER_01: So they use that same uh marketing strategy to the children.
57:39
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and actually, the Federal Trade Commission, according to their report, they said that food and beverage companies they spend about two billion dollars every year um on advertising that targets children.
57:56
SPEAKER_01: And that means it usually uses like bright packaging or popular characters, or it ties in with the toys or with movies, you know, to entice the children.
58:06
SPEAKER_01: Um now I think I I'm pretty sure.
58:09
SPEAKER_01: Do you remember Joe the Camel that was used?
58:13
SPEAKER_01: I think Joe the Camel was banned, right?
58:15
SPEAKER_01: I I'm pretty sure that people banned Joe the Camel because it was like targeting children.
58:20
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
58:20
SPEAKER_00: Do you know Joel?
58:22
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
58:22
SPEAKER_00: I I don't I don't remember that.
58:24
SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'll look it, I'll look into that, but I'm pretty sure he got banned.
58:28
SPEAKER_01: Um but in the in the food industry, you know, this targeting of children goes on and on, and it's it's largely been um unchecked.
58:36
SPEAKER_01: And so the lawsuit is also saying that they're targeting children to consume these addictive foods, and they're even getting um, you know, famous people to promote them, you know, and of course, these are people that kids idolize, so they're gonna want to be like them.
58:55
SPEAKER_01: Uh, so those are some highlights of from this lawsuit.
59:02
SPEAKER_01: I think it's fascinating.
59:04
SPEAKER_01: And other law, it sounds like other law firms are jumping on board trying to bring up cases.
59:12
SPEAKER_01: So for instance, there's an Indiana uh personal injury firm on its website.
59:19
SPEAKER_01: It says that we're actively investigating ultra-processed food cases.
59:25
SPEAKER_01: There's a trial attorney in Texas who's also looking into possible legal action against federal regulators that they say have failed to police the ultra-processed foods.
59:37
SPEAKER_01: And um they on the website it says if your child, if you or your child have suffered health problems that your doctor has linked directly to the consumption of ultra-processed foods, we want to hear your story.
59:54
SPEAKER_01: So it sounds like they may be up against a whole slew of different lawsuits.
59:59
SPEAKER_01: So again, the this is turning out to be the food fight of the century for sure, for big food, for big ag coming from state, federal, academia, and judicial, uh, you know, from the people itself.
1:00:13
SPEAKER_01: Like isn't this this is fascinating.
1:00:16
SPEAKER_01: I never thought I'd see something like this in my lifetime.
1:00:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:00:19
SPEAKER_00: Well, who would have thought who would have thought in 1950 that you would see the tobacco fight that we saw?
1:00:26
SPEAKER_00: And the tobacco lost.
1:00:27
SPEAKER_00: And um, and and I'm I'm confident that the whole glyphosate thing, it's not dead yet either.
1:00:33
SPEAKER_00: It's gonna it's gonna continue uh to go on.
1:00:36
SPEAKER_00: So this is this is the first kind of the first shot across the bow, the rumblings of a new of a new uh pendulum swing, if you will, uh to you know to another space.
1:00:50
SPEAKER_00: We're out of time, Cena.
1:00:52
SPEAKER_00: So uh do you have you have a quick one or other yeah?
1:00:58
SPEAKER_01: I'll leave you with just one quote.
1:01:00
SPEAKER_01: This was from um Gerald Mandy, who he was the deputy um undersecretary for food safety at the USDA from 2009 to 2011.
1:01:14
SPEAKER_01: Okay, and this is what he said.
1:01:17
SPEAKER_01: This is the big this is a big grassroots effort out there because of how sick we are.
1:01:23
SPEAKER_01: A big part of it is people shouldn't be this sick, this young in their lives.
1:01:28
SPEAKER_01: You're lucky if you get to 18 without a chronic disease.
1:01:34
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
1:01:36
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
1:01:37
SPEAKER_00: I I want to cry.
1:01:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:01:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:01:40
SPEAKER_01: This is a travesty that we're doing to our children.
1:01:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is.
1:01:44
SPEAKER_00: And that's what's fueling the Maha movement.
1:01:47
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
1:01:48
SPEAKER_00: The you know, people never make changes until the pendulum swings way far to one side, and then finally it gets to a to an unacceptable level.
1:01:59
SPEAKER_00: And okay, we're gonna we're gonna deal with this.
1:02:01
SPEAKER_00: And uh, I mean, you know, think about how many people don't make any life changes until they have a heart attack, for example.
1:02:08
SPEAKER_00: Oh, now I'm gonna walk a mile a day, you know, those kinds of things.
1:02:11
SPEAKER_00: And so it and it's the same way it is in farming.
1:02:14
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, people ask, why are people so hard to, you know, uh uh adopt compost instead of chemicals or or controlled grazing instead of you know feedlots and whatever?
1:02:23
SPEAKER_00: And well, they're not they're not sick enough, they're not hungry enough, they're not poor enough, they're not, you know, um they it it's it's uh it's too so it takes it takes time to get there.
1:02:34
SPEAKER_00: So here's my question.
1:02:35
SPEAKER_00: Here's my question for our community.
1:02:37
SPEAKER_00: When's the last time you ate a Dorito?
1:02:41
SPEAKER_01: Oh wait, Dorito specifically or any ultra-processed food?
1:02:46
SPEAKER_00: No, Dorito.
1:02:47
SPEAKER_00: Let's let's keep it, let's keep it really.
1:02:49
SPEAKER_00: I mean, Dorito is like it's like the the pinnacle of these, isn't it?
1:02:52
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I mean, uh, I mean there's others, but Dorito is like it it Dorito is to ultra-processed foods what McDonald's is to to fast food.
1:03:02
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's like the it's like the the worst of the and and I mean it's a huge brand.
1:03:08
SPEAKER_00: All right, well, I mean, we can do any, but uh that makes it makes it cute.
1:03:13
SPEAKER_00: Dorito.
1:03:14
SPEAKER_00: When's the last time you ate a Dorito?
1:03:17
SPEAKER_00: All right.
1:03:18
SPEAKER_00: Thank thanks, Cena, for un unraveling this for us.
1:03:21
SPEAKER_00: It is it is really fascinating, and uh, we'll certainly be watching this as it as it unfolds.
1:03:27
SPEAKER_00: So everybody, thanks for being with us on another episode of Beyond Labels.
1:03:31
SPEAKER_00: We appreciate your patronage, your loyalty.
1:03:33
SPEAKER_00: If you like these, please tell a friend.
1:03:35
SPEAKER_00: And uh and let's move this thing forward so we touch more and more lives with some truth and some um some of our our our trivial um but maybe important banner banter from time to time.
1:03:47
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for being with us, and we'll look forward to visiting with you again next week.