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The Feminist Gaze with Aaron Edwards · The Becket Cook Show

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Life Audio.
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  Speaker 2: You are listening to The beck and Cook Show with
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  Speaker 2: your host Beckett Cook. For more information about Beckett and
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  Speaker 1: Hey, guys, welcome to the show today. I have a
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  Speaker 1: special guest, Aaron Edwards. He's been on this show before.
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  Speaker 1: He is a theologian in academic exile and an author,
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  Speaker 1: and he has a substack called That Good Fight which
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  Speaker 1: is wonderful, which you should subscribe to. So we're gonna
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  Speaker 1: get into a recent article he wrote called the Feminist
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  Speaker 1: Gaze and the Wisdom of God. And we're going to
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  Speaker 1: also talk about the Church of England's change on same
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  Speaker 1: sex blessings, as well as the archbishop of the new
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  Speaker 1: Archbishop of Canterbury. But first award from our sponsor, Please
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  Speaker 1: welcome Aaron Edwards.
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  Speaker 3: Greetings, how you doing?
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  Speaker 1: Greetings? Now, wait, where are you in the UK? Right now?
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  Speaker 4: I'm in near Sheffield basically, which is an old steel
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  Speaker 4: city from back in the day when we used to
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  Speaker 4: actually produce things in this country right about somewhere. I
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  Speaker 4: guess it's north of the Midlands. If anyone knows what
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  Speaker 4: the Midlands means in your large country, I guess you
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  Speaker 4: probably just think of us as all living in like
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  Speaker 4: one tiny area.
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  Speaker 3: Right, nor in south?
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  Speaker 1: How far? So are you in northern You're in Northern England.
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  Speaker 1: I'm in the North.
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  Speaker 4: Officially it's in the North. Yeah, it's probably in like
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  Speaker 4: it's the south of the North.
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  Speaker 3: I would say Sheffield is.
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  Speaker 1: So it's like where Lewis is from from the TV
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  Speaker 1: show Morse. He's from the North, right.
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  Speaker 3: I think, yeah, that's correct.
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  Speaker 4: I mean I don't know that show, but like, yeah,
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  Speaker 4: I'm fairly sure that's correct from the North in general.
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  Speaker 4: But it's different because in the US it's like the
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  Speaker 4: supposedly sophisticated people who in the North, aren't they And
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  Speaker 4: it's the opposite way round in.
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  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah? Right, I know. Okay, So tell us why,
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  Speaker 1: because you've been on the show before and we talked
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  Speaker 1: about why you are a theologian in academic exile, just
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  Speaker 1: tell us briefly why that is the case.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, So I was a as we spoke last time.
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  Speaker 4: I forget when it was on the show, but I
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  Speaker 4: was working at a Bible college and evangelical college for
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  Speaker 4: seven years, and I just noticed a lot of the
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  Speaker 4: same sex blessing, marriage, LGBT stuff, and coaching in on
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  Speaker 4: the church. Our college was linked to Methodism, which of
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  Speaker 4: course originated in England as an offshoot of the Church
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  Speaker 4: of England in the eighteenth century with John Wesley, etc.
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  Speaker 4: And so you know that I noticed that this was
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  Speaker 4: clearly a problem for evangelicals, not only but for evangelicals
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  Speaker 4: who are There were liberals who were kind of moving
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  Speaker 4: in an LGBT direction, but there are also people who
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  Speaker 4: are conservative who didn't want to kind of get there,
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  Speaker 4: you know, get in any kind of trouble over speaking
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  Speaker 4: about it. So they adopted this kind of super winsome
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  Speaker 4: apologetic tone whenever they spoke about the issues. It was
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  Speaker 4: always like, you know, I'm so sorry for any harm
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  Speaker 4: we've ever caused the LGBT community. And you're like, when
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  Speaker 4: have you guys always falling over yourselves to apologize for
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  Speaker 4: all this harm?
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  Speaker 3: I don't really I've never really seen any of these.
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  Speaker 4: Froth mouthed conservatives in my time who've been like aggressively
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  Speaker 4: attacking all these gay people. It seems like you're desperately
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  Speaker 4: trying to impress them, and actually they're the aggressor in
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  Speaker 4: many respects. So many people who are hurt and harmoned
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  Speaker 4: by it in the sense that the ideology is harming
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  Speaker 4: them and sending them into a spiral. But so I
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  Speaker 4: just realized this is a real problem for the gospel.
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  Speaker 4: So even evangelicals, you say, let's stay out of these
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  Speaker 4: moral issues, let's stay out of issues that are that
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  Speaker 4: are not the gospel. We'll just talk about the gospel
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  Speaker 4: and say Jesus loves you. Well, you can't actually do
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  Speaker 4: that if you start allowing things like gay marriage in
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  Speaker 4: or say I personally don't agree with it, but I'm
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  Speaker 4: not going to challenge it, Like that doesn't make sense,
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  Speaker 4: and you're kind of saying that Jesus didn't need to
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  Speaker 4: die for some sins.
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  Speaker 3: And so I tweeted about that.
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  Speaker 4: If I spoke about it behind the scenes with the
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  Speaker 4: college executives at Ceter for years about the issues of
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  Speaker 4: Methodism and if it goes for gay marriage, what would
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  Speaker 4: we do as an evangelical college that is technically not
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  Speaker 4: supposed to agree with that? And it was all they
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  Speaker 4: tried to shove it under the carpet. It's not going
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  Speaker 4: to be an issue. And eventually, you know, I said,
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  Speaker 4: this isn't going to work. You can't just pretend that
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  Speaker 4: both views are acceptable contradictory convictions, as they call it methodism.
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  Speaker 4: You can't pretend that that's going to work because the
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  Speaker 4: conservatives are going to get in trouble because they're going
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  Speaker 4: to want to challenge the view, and then the gay
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  Speaker 4: person is going to say, you really offended me. You
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  Speaker 4: said that God was okay with this, and this person
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  Speaker 4: says he isn't. What do we do well conservatively to
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  Speaker 4: be quiet, et cetera. So I said this, and then
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  Speaker 4: I ended up basically tweeting about it and talked about
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  Speaker 4: homosexuality invading the church. Evangelicals don't see the severity of
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  Speaker 4: this anymore because they're busy apologizing for their apparently barbaric homophobia,
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  Speaker 4: whether or not it's true. This is a gospel issue,
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  Speaker 4: by the way, because if sin is no longer sin,
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  Speaker 4: we no longer need a savior. So that was the tweet,
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  Speaker 4: and then I got suspended immediately after a tweet storm
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  Speaker 4: with all the high up Methodists trying to get me fired,
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  Speaker 4: all the game Methodists desperately trying to kind of cause
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  Speaker 4: trouble the college bow to them fired me two weeks later.
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  Speaker 4: Three weeks later, I think, And then that's been the case.
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  Speaker 4: So I've been and you know, as as you can imagine,
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  Speaker 4: in the place as liberal as the UK, having like
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  Speaker 4: fired for causing your the college disrepute is not is
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  Speaker 4: not ideal for your CV, shall we say? So it
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  Speaker 4: was not ideal, you know. That's that's why I'm kind
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  Speaker 4: of an academic exile in the sense that I sort
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  Speaker 4: of went into the West wing, shall we say, and
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  Speaker 4: spoke about things one mustn't speak about if one is
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  Speaker 4: an academic.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. And by the way, you have how many kids?
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  Speaker 1: Five kids?
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  Speaker 3: I think I possibly had five when we last spoke.
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  Speaker 4: I have seven children now, who knows?
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  Speaker 3: Next time, next time we have a conversation, who knows.
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  Speaker 1: Wow, Oh, God bless you. That's amazing. Yeah, so people,
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  Speaker 1: can you please support him and subscribe to his sub stack?
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  Speaker 1: That's amazing. Seven kids. Well, I'm the youngest of eight kids,
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  Speaker 1: so I'm yeah.
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  Speaker 3: There you go very much.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: I love big families.
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  Speaker 1: But my father was not. He wasn't canceled as a
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  Speaker 1: lawyer in Dallas Texas. Yeah, okay, what's going on before
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  Speaker 1: we get into your article, what's going on with the
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  Speaker 1: same sex blessings in the Church of England.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: So, like I said, the funny thing was just a
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  Speaker 4: tiny little footnote that goes back onto my story. Of course,
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  Speaker 4: we're challenging that in in legal proceedings with the employer
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  Speaker 4: and tribunal at the appeal stage, et cetera. I've written
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  Speaker 4: about that on the substack as well. People want to
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  Speaker 4: read about it. But actually, somebody who was tweeting a
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  Speaker 4: lot at the time that I tweeted, I was actually
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  Speaker 4: responding not to Methodism, which had already gone for gay marriage.
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  Speaker 4: It had already you know, the ship had sailed. I
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  Speaker 4: was more concerned about the Church of England talking about
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  Speaker 4: same sex blessings, which was happening in twenty twenty three,
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  Speaker 4: and they were saying, no, we're not going to go
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  Speaker 4: for gay marriage like yet, or maybe we will, maybe
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  Speaker 4: we won't, but we are going to allow same sex blessings.
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  Speaker 4: And that was their kind of compromise for all of
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  Speaker 4: the gay people in the Church of England and all
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  Speaker 4: of the including like Vickers, you know, people who actually
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  Speaker 4: ordained as clergy but what, by the way.
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  Speaker 1: What I mean, just so we know, what does that
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  Speaker 1: actually mean? Same sex blessings? I mean, it doesn't even
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  Speaker 1: make sense, but what does that mean? According to that.
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  Speaker 3: It's a very English fudge.
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  Speaker 4: So it's like, I don't know if you guys have
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  Speaker 4: fudge over them in America, but the fudge is like this,
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  Speaker 4: like you know, I think it's like taffy. Do is
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  Speaker 4: it called salt water a bit like that? That kind
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  Speaker 4: of it is that kind of thing. So we call
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  Speaker 4: it fudge, just this squidgesuy stuff and it doesn't have
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  Speaker 4: any substance, like it doesn't have proper like backbone and spine.
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  Speaker 4: So the English Church things that are professionals at fudging.
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  Speaker 4: So they love a compromise and it's a very part
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  Speaker 4: of the English relationhip. We love to hold paradoxes together.
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  Speaker 4: I think Americans a lot more direct and like literal
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  Speaker 4: about things, and we're just like, no, maybe we can
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  Speaker 4: make this thing that doesn't actually work work though, what
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  Speaker 4: if we tried that? And so there's something about that
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  Speaker 4: in what they tried to do. And so the same
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  Speaker 4: sex blessing was like, hey, God is not okay with
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  Speaker 4: you getting married. But like we recognize that you being
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  Speaker 4: in a relationship with someone, and maybe even allowing the
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  Speaker 4: state to marry you, but not just.
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  Speaker 3: A civil partnership. We used to have civil partnerships in
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  Speaker 3: the UK.
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  Speaker 4: It was only similar to the US. I think we
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  Speaker 4: did we go ahead of you before when was a
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  Speaker 4: Berger fell I think it was twenty fifteen. I think
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  Speaker 4: we went two years before you, So you know, we
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  Speaker 4: were ahead of you, more progressive, and so the state
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  Speaker 4: could already marry you. So they were kind of accepting
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  Speaker 4: that was happening anyway. They weren't going to put people
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  Speaker 4: on the church discipline for being married to another person
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  Speaker 4: of the same sex, which is already a contradiction. Really,
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  Speaker 4: if you're saying this is wrong or doesn't honor it,
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  Speaker 4: you're in my church. You're married to someone of the
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  Speaker 4: same sex. You can't be that's God doesn't recognize that
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  Speaker 4: as a marriage. So they tried to say, well, we
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  Speaker 4: couldn't do that, that would be impossible, that'll be so hurtful, etc.
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  Speaker 4: So we'll bless these people and pray that God blesses them.
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  Speaker 4: Now we don't have to say what that blessing means, etcetera.
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  Speaker 4: A bit like what Prancis was playing with for a time, like,
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  Speaker 4: what did he mean when he said he wanted to
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  Speaker 4: pray for gay couples in some way? Was he praying
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  Speaker 4: that there be deliverance or was he pray? Probably not,
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  Speaker 4: He's praying really that God would bless them somehow in
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  Speaker 4: this at least it's monogamous, at least it's life long
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  Speaker 4: according to them, and at least it's honoring, etc.
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  Speaker 3: Is what they would say.
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  Speaker 4: So they say God can bless good things, so we
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  Speaker 4: can say that there's some good in there that he
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  Speaker 4: can bless, and we'll just forget about the fact that
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  Speaker 4: they couldn't get married. And he doesn't accept that because
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  Speaker 4: we recognize that it's not possible mat theologically, marriage is
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  Speaker 4: not possible between to people the same sex according to
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  Speaker 4: canon law. And then in the Anglican Church, the reason
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  Speaker 4: it's more significant is because it's linked in as the
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  Speaker 4: established Church into the laws of the land, which is
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  Speaker 4: quite cool. I mean, I know that Americans have different
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  Speaker 4: views on establishment in general, but it's kind of interesting
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  Speaker 4: that I find it interesting as an evangelical who's been
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  Speaker 4: more in the charismatic, independent church type world. The Anglicans
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  Speaker 4: have so much more influence. Like people, the average British
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  Speaker 4: person talks about what the Anglican Church does, which is
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  Speaker 4: wild when it's so secular as a nation, there's so
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  Speaker 4: few Christians, and yet when the Church of England does
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  Speaker 4: something big, it's in the newspapers because it's the established church.
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  Speaker 4: And there's bishops who are in the House of Lords still,
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  Speaker 4: so there's still people because they're a bishop in the
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  Speaker 4: church when they get to sit and talk about legislation,
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  Speaker 4: which is amazing, but it's a shame that loads of
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  Speaker 4: them aren't really very orthodox theologically anymore. But it's a
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  Speaker 4: kind of cool concept that you're like, wow, that's how
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  Speaker 4: significant Christianity was in this land. So because it's so
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  Speaker 4: it's not actually that easy for the progressive to come
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  Speaker 4: in and just swoop in and go, hey, just change
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  Speaker 4: canon lawmpletely because of the emotion of the debate. No,
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  Speaker 4: you can't actually do that. It's really difficult, and they
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  Speaker 4: tried it, and so they thought this was their fudge.
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  Speaker 4: Maybe we can kick it down to the long grass
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  Speaker 4: and go just bless them, blessed the couples. We'll just
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  Speaker 4: bless the couples, and and well maybe we'll get to
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  Speaker 4: marriage at some point, but we don't know exactly if
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  Speaker 4: we will or not. So that's sort of what ended
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  Speaker 4: up happening.
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  Speaker 1: Really, yeah, it sounds it sounds very suspicious. We'll be
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  Speaker 1: right back after this short break. Okay, so let's move.
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  Speaker 4: To your your most recent I'm sorry before we go
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  Speaker 4: that I actually forgot to perform. The very latest thing
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  Speaker 4: that just happened was actually that they in the Church
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  Speaker 4: of England, they have decided to kind of cancel the
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  Speaker 4: process which was called living in Love and Faith. Oh right, yeah,
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  Speaker 4: so that's the thing they just decided this week. They
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  Speaker 4: were literally like, oh, actually this isn't going to work,
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  Speaker 4: and we're not going to have same sex blessing ceremonies.
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  Speaker 4: And yet there's still some fudge in there. They love
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  Speaker 4: the fudge and that and that is that you can
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  Speaker 4: still be prayed for as the same sex couple in
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  Speaker 4: an Anglican church on a Sunday, So in a service,
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  Speaker 4: during a service, you could be prayed for, but they
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  Speaker 4: can't have a special ceremony with a special liturgy written
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  Speaker 4: for a same sex couple. It's mad because you think,
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  Speaker 4: what is why would you do that? Like, why would
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: that be allowed? Like so there's again there's things that
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: are just compromises all over the shop because it's all
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  Speaker 4: taked in like the emotion of people feeling hurt the
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: LGBT community feeling hurt is the thing that they're worried
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  Speaker 4: about the application. But then they also worried about African
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  Speaker 4: massive African dioceses leaving the Chech of England because they're like, no,
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  Speaker 4: you can't do this, and we're like, yeah, exactly, So
• 12:39
  Speaker 4: we are African brothers and sisters have really come into
• 12:42
  Speaker 4: their form because they're just completely conservative, embarrassingly conservative on it,
• 12:45
  Speaker 4: which is great, and so yeah, that's that's why the
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  Speaker 4: Anglican Church is in turmoil basically. So they tried to
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: basically say we can't go official ceremonies and we can't
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  Speaker 4: go for gay marriage because it's just not possible, and
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  Speaker 4: we're going to stop. They live being in love and
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  Speaker 4: faith process is what they called it, and it's going
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  Speaker 4: to end this year. But there's other people who progressive
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: you still think they're going to make some change in
• 13:06
  Speaker 4: the future. So who knows what the future holds in
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: the funds that is the Anglican Church.
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  Speaker 1: So on any given Sunday, I was same sex couple
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  Speaker 1: can be blessed or prayed for? Is that correct? Yeah?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, and I don't quite know what that looks like
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  Speaker 4: in practice. So in reality what the last literally since
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  Speaker 4: twenty twenty twenty three, but the whole process has been going,
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  Speaker 4: the discussions and working groups since twenty seventeen. It's cost
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: they worked out it costs one point six million pounds
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: in your money. That might people that were doing quite
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: well pound at the moment army maybe maybe about two
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: million dollars or something. It's like, that's how much it
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: costs just to kind of have these discussions. And they realized, oh,
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: these discussions didn't work, so okay, great, good you some
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: church funds. So anyway, yeah, yeah, they they can be
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  Speaker 4: prayed for, and they don't really know what it will
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: look like. But it's a bit it's again a bit
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  Speaker 4: of a ridiculous situation because those things will already happening,
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: and there's already gay vickers again who again aren't who
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  Speaker 4: are married, who aren't being like, you know, disciplined. They're
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  Speaker 4: having to compromise somewhere, but at least they haven't gone
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  Speaker 4: for the we're having an official celebration and we're still
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  Speaker 4: and we're not going for marriage. So there's a positives
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  Speaker 4: for the conservative side more than negatives. But I still
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: think they're dealing with a bit of a mess because
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: the bishops aren't willing to come out and say, here's
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  Speaker 4: what God actually thinks, here's what he said, and here's
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  Speaker 4: what the implications are. And we want to help love
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: LGBT people by helping them to repent and caring for
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  Speaker 4: them pastor really rather than feeding them with this vague
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  Speaker 4: hope that maybe one day will change our mind. And
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: that's kind of where there's a lot of division at
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  Speaker 4: the moment.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I forgot about the gay vicar situation. That's really
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  Speaker 1: like that. That's a tough kind of spot to be in.
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  Speaker 1: I don't understand how that works.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, well again, it works because do you know what
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: it How it works? It works because they're hoping. So
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: there's a guy who's particularly vocal on it, called Charlie Bell.
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: He now has a double barrel surname, which sounds kind
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: of po Turkish. Maybe that's terrible the difference between too,
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: But I don't know precisely what. Anyway, he got married
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  Speaker 4: last year. I think in a Maria. He went over
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  Speaker 4: to America to get married. I don't know why he
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  Speaker 4: needs to do that. Possibly in some how it worked,
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: but anyway, so he's married and he's he's really outspoken,
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: and he gave this very what would be seen as
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: a very powerful, moving emotional speech about it, angry in condemnatory,
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  Speaker 4: like a kind of Old Testament prophet condemning the Anglican
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: Church for pulling out of this process. You know, he's
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: already like married to someone, so he's like, he's not
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: like he's got any vested interest in is he in
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: this in this sort of situation.
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  Speaker 3: So it's bizarre really, So he's just literally acting.
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  Speaker 4: Like they're still going to push it through, like it's
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: so it's a bit weird to see this kind of
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: thing happening because they have literally said we're stopping this
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: process in July, and he's like, we're going to go
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: full steam ahead and keep pushing.
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: And so that it's a weird scenario to be in.
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: And I think, really those.
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: People just need to leave the church. They need to
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: leave and go, Okay, we don't believe the church anymore,
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: and that would be more and it'll be sad. But
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: if they're not going to repent. I don't think they
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: should be leading. It's like saying, it's like basically at
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: this point, because they're pushing the agenda. It's like saying, hey,
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: the best kind of shepherd is actually a wolf.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: I know it looks a bit like dodgy, but like,
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: actually the new kind of training for shepherd is actually
• 16:16
  Speaker 4: to make.
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: Them act and look like wolves and talk like wolves.
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: And that's fine.
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: And I just think that's a real shame. And I
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: wouldn't say that of all gay people in the church.
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: I would just say that especially those leaders who are
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: trying to push this, and that could be someone who
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: isn't even gay, who just super pro LGBT and wanting
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: to push the inclusive agenda. There are just so many,
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: so many of the shepherds have become wolves in the
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: Church of England, in the hierarchy, that it's a really
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: sad thing. And there's loads of good people still in
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: the Church of England who are fighting, and they're fighting
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: is they know that maybe the establishment will win out
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: in the end somehow because it's so historic and it
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: might be the case that the progressors drift off or
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: move away, so who knows what will happen, but it
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: is a real mess at the moment.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, as I always say, I'm so glad that in
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: two thousand and nine, when I met Christians at a
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: coffee shop, they didn't lie to me. They told me
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: the truth about homosexual behavior being a sin. And that
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: actually prepared me the week before to walk into the
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: Evangelical Church knowing that information. I mean I kind of
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: already knew that sort of. I mean I knew that,
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: but it was just they confirmed it. And so when
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: I was when I walked into that first service the
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: day I got I had the road to Damascus conversion.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: I in my I don't know if I've mentioned this
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: to you, but in my mind, I put the idea
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: of homosexual behavior as a sin. I put the idea
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: of homosexuality as my identity on an imaginary shelf and
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: walked into that service and because I and I thought
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: to myself, you know what, what if I am wrong
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: about that, I could be wrong about that this And
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: so that's when God swooped in and opened my eyes.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: And so I'm very thankful that there weren't wolves in
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: my church at that time. There were no wolves my
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: pastor was not he was not a wolf.
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's amazing, and he taught the truth God.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I feel you know, it's like this is
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: this this is a matter of eternal life. You know,
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: it's like people are toying with this and playing with
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: this idea. It's like this is like there's millstones that are.
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: Going to be happening.
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's crazy to say, and especially the fact that
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: they couched all in love. That's why I think it's
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: not loving to those people to say that so well
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: as you say it was loving for those people to
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: challenge you with the truth, even though it would it
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: would be painful, be painful for them maybe if you'd
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: have reacted badly. And then probably presuming you get people
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: now who are gay, who are like you've sold out
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: and you're kind of like, you know, you're tray te
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: or some kind of Uncle Tom equivalent of.
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: The LGBT community. It's a bizarre thing, isn't it.
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: And that's really sad because you want to kind of
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: continue to preach, preach the truth to them, but there's
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: such a resistance ideologically because of the culture that there
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: lies that they're told is so so disgraceful, which makes
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: it almost impossible. So the devil is clever because you know,
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: he's put it in a situation where it's like you
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: are attacking my very self. My whole soul is bound
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: up with my basically my sexual immorality. So therefore I
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: can I can do whatever I want because it's literally
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: my God cares about my soul and if you take
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: that away, you're literally dehumanizing me. And that's that's such
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: a clever lie. It's so powerful, and so to undo
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: that it's really really difficult, but people need to be
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: bold enough to do it.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm very tell I talked to everyone about
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: Jesus and my story and and you know, to some
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: it's the aroma of life, to some it's the aroma
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: of Dutch. And you know, I can't. I can't control
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: the outcome. Only God can do that. Let's get to
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: your your article that was published on February seventh. The
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: title is the Feminist Gaze in the Wisdom of God
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: and the subtitle is why are you using Jesus to
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: rob Paul? To rob Jesus? Robs Us? All? I love that. Now,
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: first of all, why did you what compelled you to
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: even write this was it the archbishop situation?
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, a little bit of a fallout for that that.
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: There was an article I wrote maybe the week before
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: on the Tragedy of the Church of England, which was
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: about Sarah Malalley, the new Archbishop of Canterbury, who was
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: officially consecrated in the in the in Saint Paul's Cathedral
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: in London.
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: And though we all knew that she we knew this.
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: Was going to happen because she'd been voted in I
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: forget when sometime last year, so it's not like it
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: was new news. I think I might I wrote something
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: at the time on when when that first happened, But
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: I think it's actually it's really interesting when you see
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: on like Sky TV. I don't think you have Sky
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: over there, do you Maybe you have some CNN or whatever, Yeah,
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: equivalent big network like the big you know one, and
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: and it's like everyone's watching again, like I said earlier,
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: everyone's watching the arch Bishop of Canterbury on normal TV
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: being consecrated, and it's such like it's viscerally you can
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: just you're like, oh, this is this is completely shouldn't
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: be happening.
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: This can't be happening.
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: You can't have a woman exercising the ultimate authority over
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: all the men in the Anglican and it's not this
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: isn't theologically possible, and yet it's happening. And and like
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: we're watching and we're seeing all the speeches, We're seeing
• 21:43
  Speaker 4: all these things happen, and all of these prayers being said,
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: as though this is a solemn, a solemn thing before God,
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: this is a solemn event that's occurring, that God is
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: somehow anointing her to be the archbishop. And this isn't possible.
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: She isn't the archbishop. This isn't possible. Yet it's happening
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: and everyone's watching it, and it's it just it brings
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: it to the surface in a quite a powerful way,
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: and in a way that I think wakes people up,
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: I hope, but in other ways it might lull people
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: to sleep who think, oh, okay, I guess this is
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: normal now, and the average non Christians like, oh okay, right,
• 22:15
  Speaker 4: this is happening, is it? And I just think actually,
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: on a missional level, there are a lot of non
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: Christians now, as you may be a presuma having the
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: same thing. In the US what they call the quiet revival.
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: I don't think that's necessarily the best term, but like
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: people just who are kind of sick of the woke,
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: sick of the undermining of foundations in the West, who
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: are kind of turning up in church again, and they
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: might more likely it's don't know how again. In the US,
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: you've got so many churches of so many kinds. I
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: think the average the average person is probably in Britain
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: is probably not going to go to an evangelical church
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: that meets in the school or a cafe. They're going
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: to go to a church that looks like a church
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: as they understand the church to be historically. So they'll
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: probably go to an Anglican church because they think they
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: think of themselves kind of in the church and it's
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: England and I'm in the Church of England, and so
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: they'll turn up to all of these and depends who
• 23:04
  Speaker 4: they get. They might get some Transvica. You know who's
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: who's gone, and it's just like it doesn't It's just
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: really ridiculous, really, because I think these are people who
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: are the reason why they're there is because they want
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: solid foundations. They want a house built on a rock,
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: and they don't want this kind of completely loose sandy foundation,
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: which is precisely what's going wrong in culture. So the
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: Church of England is just mirroring what's happening in the culture.
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: And maybe that's the problem with the established church, that
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: it's so connected to what's going on in society that
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: it's like it's almost becomes one with it.
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: And so as as the society falls away, so does
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: that that church.
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: That can easily happen with those churches that are just
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: trying to engage the culture and not trying to challenge
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: it and be salt and light within it. So basically anyway,
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: so this is she was sworn in, and I think
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: it was a real missed opportunity, and there'll be people
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: who would have gone to the church. Is that that
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: actually they want people to hold the line and they
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: have less respect for the church because they've got a
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: woman archbishop. Now for sure there'll be lots of young
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: men who are like, oh, I'm not going to go
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: to the Church of England because I can't see.
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: That as being legitimate. So that was the in the ether,
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: and it's the kind of people who.
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: Responded to me about that about my my views on
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: the archbishop who Then I then wrote this this piece
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: on the feminist gaze, relating to basically the how how
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: people try to justify these kinds of situations.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: Basically, Yeah, well I personally I take it as a
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: personal attack because I was named after an archbishop of Canterbury,
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: Thomas Beckett. So so it's a personal it gets personal
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: for me.
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: And by the way, when when we say feminist gaze
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: is g a z E.
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: That's a really good point on the audio, that's a
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: really good point, like this feminist gaze.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: So I used to be a feminist gay actually, praise God.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: That So in the the first and you say, in
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: order to gain the respect of respectable modern liberals at
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: some point, the done thing, Well, I know what that.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: I've never heard that expression before, but the done thing
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: is to disrespect the teachings of the apostle Paul, Uh,
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: what is the what is the done thing?
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: It's a very British phrase.
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: It's kind of like the it's I think it probably
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: harkens back to Victorian England. So this it isn't done
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: like one and one doesn't do that like so you
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: think of the dowager countess in downtown Abbey or something
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: Maggie Smith that she would like, it's just not the
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: done thing. One doesn't do those things, okay, society so like,
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: so if you want to do the done thing, the
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: done thing is what one should do.
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: So, yes, it's so like.
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: That's that's the You're always trying to do what can
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: keep with convention basically. So it's actually it goes back
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: to the British class system of one one does the
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: right thing and keeps the convention and never upsets the
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: apple cart basically.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: Right, which is another. And then you go on to say,
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: whenever someone regret regrettably finds out about something Paul said
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: which contributes to said embarrassment or heaven forbid, they talk
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: about it out loud, they attempt to apply such teachings
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: in real life, or I'm sorry they or even feminism
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: have mercy, they attempt to apply such teachings in real life.
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: The standard procedure is twofold. Now what are the twofold?
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: Number one? You say, pivot seamlessly to the way of Jesus.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: Talk about what that is that that kind of tactic
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: or that tact.
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, The first tack would be that they are
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: basically saying, look, I know that it seems that Paul
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: they have said this stuff, but hey, I'm with Jesus
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: and we're Christians, right, We're not pauline Ites, We're not
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: pau Lists, We're Christians. So let's just focus on what Jesus,
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: you know, let's just focus on Matthew, Mark, Luca, John
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: and we I mean, we know, we just we know
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: that actually Jesus is loving, so so his his way.
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: It's a very vague thing. So they don't want to
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: get that point. They don't want to get specific. They
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: want to say, Jesus. We know that Jesus is loving,
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: and Jesus is inclusive because Jesus is part of the Trinity,
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: and therefore you know, he is the embodiment of the
• 27:14
  Speaker 4: of of love itself because God is love, and so
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: you can just easily go the way of Jesus is
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: this amazing loving entity and you just follow that, And
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: that means kind of that you would affirm where somebody
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: is it wants to be affirmed. It seems similar for
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: the LGBT thing to some extent. But on that and
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: then therefore you can make it look like Paul actually
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: is the problem. So actually you can easily make it
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: what's called a canon within the cannons, with the Canon
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: of Scripture, the sixty six books that we as Protestants
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: would recognize as authoritative, and then it's kind of like, yeah,
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: but there's a real there's a proper.
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: Canon within that.
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: And it's like, what whatever the way of Jesus, it's
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: this vague sense of the way of Jesus and only
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: the way of Jesus within a certain select reading of
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: certain texts. And then Paul, Yeah, he's got some really
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: good stuff to say, but actually, you know he he's
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: a bit misogynistic. He's of his time, and you know,
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: he didn't seem to like women very much. That's why
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: I didn't let them teach. That's why they should be
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: silent in church, et cetera.
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: He was, yeah, exactly what he know?
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: What do he know about these things? He wasn't enlightened
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: like we are as well. So, so Jesus is what
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: it's all about, isn't it?
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: Guys? Come on, guys, isn't it? Isn't it all about Jesus?
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: Really?
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: And lots of evangelicals could hear like, yeah, we always
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: say that, we always say it's all about Jesus.
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: All of our sermons end up talking just about Jesus,
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: whatever the passage is about. So yeah, I guess maybe
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: that's more important. And maybe some of these weird stuff
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: that think that Paul said here or there, he that's
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: just Paul. And he said, of course I didn't mention
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: this in the article, but there is that thing that
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: Paul says in One Corinthians. You know, I'm speaking now
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: in the authority of the Lord. Now, I'm speaking as
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: the apostles. So they just say that that they use
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: that from One Corinthians, and they just say whenever Paul,
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: whenever we disagree with Paul, we can just say that
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: he's not speaking authoritatively at that point. And it's just
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: magical that whatever that is, it happens to be the
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: very thing that the secular God hating culture happens to affirm.
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: And we are We're not going along with it because
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: they're doing it.
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: We're just doing it because we've decided, actually, God the
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: Spirit has somehow enlightened us with exactly the same thing
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: that the secular world did whatever fifty years earlier, thirty
• 29:15
  Speaker 4: years earlier, whatever it would be.
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: So that's their first time.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: Even though even though all the all of the the
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: entire Bible is the word of God, period. And I
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: love that you say, the authority of Jesus Christ, the
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: accredate sent of God. They have to choose between the
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: authority of Jesus and the bull she I don't even
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: know what this means, the bulls guy named.
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: I love. There's good.
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: There's there's some Anglo American translation done thing ball. She's
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: like someone who's just like a bit like aggressive and
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: in your face kind of thing. And actually they would
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: use that phrase about so in one Timothy two twelve,
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: for example, where Paul says, I do not permit a
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: woman to teach her exercise authority over a man, or rather,
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: she must have remained silent, they would say. The liberals
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: would say, oh, that's because in Ephesus, the context in
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: which Paul is writing to Timothy, there were some bolshy women.
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: Sometimes that's kind of a phrase you might hear, there's
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: some bolshy women who are kind of usurping authority. So
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: really he was saying, these particular bolshy women in this
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: particular church in Nephesis, at this particular time can't exercise
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: authority over men.
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: These men, sorry, not all men.
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: So it's like completely ridiculous, I think, just absolutely hilariously
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: stupid argument, and really clever sophisticated scholars believe that.
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: Like I'm amazed by it.
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: I genuinely am amazed that people can buy this completely
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: stupid argument and it needs to be mocked and laughed
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: at the way the prophets mocked stupid like ridiculous idolatry
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: in the Old Testament, because it's that stupid like, and
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: I don't mean to say that the people are unintelligent,
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: it's stupid kind of to think that anyone would buy it,
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: and yet people do because it's a heart issue and
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: not a head issue, and so that's why they end
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: up making this thing.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: It.
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: Pall's a bit misogynistic. He's a bit bolshy because he
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: goes off in these rants about women, and you know,
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: actually that's really who would Who do you want to
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: go with again, Jesus or Paul, the incarnate son of
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: God got love itself, et cetera, or this kind of
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: godless man, a mere man called Paul. Yeah, Jesus gave
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: him a bit of authority, but Jesus is the real one.
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: Of course, Jesus gave him the authority, So we just
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: go with Jesus whenever there's a kind of discrepancy, and
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: as though there is a discrepancy, and it makes people
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: kind of think, oh, yeah, I guess Jesus didn't really
• 31:23
  Speaker 4: talk as much about women as Paul did, So maybe
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: Paul's got the issue. And it's so dangerous in the
• 31:28
  Speaker 4: way that introduces this serpentine undermining of the authority of
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: Scripture itself, and very subtly just through a woman coming
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: and saying, I really feel God calling me to minister
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: and you can again it's the heart strings can be pulled.
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: Are you saying that? Is you saying that.
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: God is not calling me to ministry in some way?
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: Are you saying that you know more than God? That's
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: kind of how it's touched and the person that is, Oh,
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: I guess I don't you know. I guess I wouldn't
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: want to like completely, I wouldn't be want to be
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: spiritually abusive to you.
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: So yeah, let's just go with what you kind of feel.
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: Because you're so passionate about it, that must be true.
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: God must have literally told you you should exercise authority
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: over man. He must have told you that exactly rather
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: than actually a good thing about women being called to
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: all sorts of ministry in the church. Because women are
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: called ministry, they're just not called exercise authority over men.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: So yeah, let me just ask really quick. Let's see, Hey,
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: what is the origin of the British term bolshie? It
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: comes from bolshevik, the Russian reel. That's what I thought.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: I thought I was gonna, I literally was gonna bolshevik yology. Yeah, okay,
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: so bolshi I love that word. I'm going to use
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: it all the time out. Now the second trick, you say,
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: if this, if this vague appeal to the way of
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: Jesus doesn't seem to land, what is the second trick
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: people use liberals use.
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so the second thing that they will use is
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: that they will usually highlight a specific instance in which
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: Jesus has shown some kind of love or care for
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: a woman. And there's lots of instances in individual women
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: at the well for example, or the woman with the
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: issue of blood, or even the syro Phoenician woman, though
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: he does refer kind of refer to her as a dog,
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: as a dog in a way, and that as those
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: who are outside the people of Israel, but she he
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: does speak of her faith, and of course you've got
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: Mary Magdalen, You've got you know, the woman the alabasta Jar.
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: So there's lots of great interactions of Jesus with women
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: that would easily play into a narrative that someone could
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: construct and say that Jesus is obviously pro women. In fact,
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: in fact he tellt with the Martha and Mary situation,
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: he is he's actually saying that Mary has actually done
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: well here because she's actually got that she's chosen the
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: better portion, because she's sitting at my feet learning and
• 33:45
  Speaker 4: being taught by me. So she's kind of learning theology. Therefore,
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: why would she need to learn theology if she wasn't
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: going to, you know, go ahead and teach others, you know.
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: So it's almost of taking these particular instances and then
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: sort of assuming therefore that Jesus clearly wanted to introduce
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: this acorn of though we don't see it all in full,
• 34:07
  Speaker 4: it's what he really.
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: Wanted to communicate about women and women in the church.
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: And therefore it's a similar related point but to the
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: previous that ultimately what Paul ends up going and doing
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: that kind of confuses the issue and they have to
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: try to again fudge them together and say, look, Jesus
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: didn't say what Paul said. He didn't say all of
• 34:26
  Speaker 4: the same things that Paul said. So therefore we all
• 34:28
  Speaker 4: again taking the first principle, we always go with Jesus
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: when we're not sure. And Jesus didn't say in so
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: many words, I don't permit women to exercise authority over men,
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: even though I obviously implied it in the sense that
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: he chose twelve men as his apostles who were the
• 34:46
  Speaker 4: leaders to exercise authority over all men and women, And
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: so you could think that was quite a big hint,
• 34:52
  Speaker 4: but they basically kind of again just think that the
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: things that Jesus didn't explicitly say, we can't assume that
• 34:57
  Speaker 4: Jesus believed. And that's really, really again, it's a very
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: clever trick, because people can just you can't put something
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: on Jesus and go, well, did you but Jesus, do
• 35:06
  Speaker 4: you agree with the apostle Paul. I mean, every Christianity
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: doesn't work if you make a discrepancy between the letters
• 35:13
  Speaker 4: of Paul and the written accounts of what Jesus said
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: in his life. Of course, John says at the end
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: of his Gospel that there are many more things that
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: Jesus said and did, and if they were written down,
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: it would take kind of the whole space in the
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: whole world to kind of document them. And so it's
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: quite obvious that Jesus would have had quite normal Jewish
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: views relating to the Old Testament views about male and
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: female as distinct. In fact, that there's obviously loads of
• 35:39
  Speaker 4: hints of that throughout the Gospels anyway, in loads of ways.
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: The way he talks about marriage, for example, it assumes
• 35:45
  Speaker 4: what I would call a biblical patriarchal view, which is
• 35:48
  Speaker 4: not the same as what feminists called patriarchy.
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: They just mean misogyny.
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: But I think Jesus entirely affirms the biblical patriarchy of
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: the Old Testaments, of the Old Testament, and of course
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: of the patriarchs. So and then the interesting thing is
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: that Jesus then obviously is the one who commissions Paul.
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: So he's the one who gives Paul his mission, which
• 36:07
  Speaker 4: includes go and write all these letters. Basically he's inspired
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: by the spirit to do that which Jesus sent. So
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: it's really theologically muddled to say we've got this like
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: view of the reports of what Jesus said and did
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: in the gospels. That's all we really need to know
• 36:22
  Speaker 4: about what Jesus thinks. You're already kind of separating like
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: the Spirit from Jesus there in terms of the trinity.
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: So it's theologically all over the place to try to
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: shoehorn this idea in that Jesus because he technically didn't
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: say all the stuff Paul said on women in the church,
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: he doesn't believe it, and that's the thing that's just mad.
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: But again, in a kind of way of proof texting,
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: you can see how people could be won over by
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: it because they kind of easily just go, well, Jesus
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: didn't talk about it, so I don't have to believe
• 36:50
  Speaker 4: that exactly.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: And the same applies to homosexuality. Well, Jesus didn't talk
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: about it in the gospel, so but you know, Paul did,
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: but Jesus. But it's I always say, Jesus was speaking
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: to Jews, and they knew the Torah, they knew that
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: it was a capital crime, Like he didn't need to
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: talk about it. He also didn't talk about pederaste or exactly,
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: and he but and he also reiterated what marriage was
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: you know, and that it was between one man and
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: one woman. So it's the same. It's the same trick.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Now you give a third you can try another tactic,
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: which says you say that they say they can say
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: that Paul is not actually quote out of sync with
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: Jesus at all, but rather, in spite of what he
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: said in those letters, that both he and Jesus believed
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: more or less whatever the people of our present liberal
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: generation currently happened to believe about. Well, anyway, go on,
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: just talk about that, talking about that third way.
• 37:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so that's kind of like they I mean, that's
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: them try. It's just amazing because they go because of
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: the first tactic is let's separate Jesus from Paul in
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: different ways.
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: We can try and do it now.
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: I think one thing I didn't mention earlier whether they
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: was when you do that, by the way, you don't
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: even get Jesus in the end. That's kind of why
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: it robs us all in terms of the subtitle, because
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: lots of the stuff we believe about Jesus comes from
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: Paul's letters. So who Jesus is in terms of like
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: the christology, like who Jesus is, as as some of
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: God with his authority, reigning, ruling, et cetera, glorified. So
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: you can't you just can't do that, Like you you
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: undermine Jesus' authority when you undermine Paul's authority as a
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: fossil of Jesus. So when they've done that, if people
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: are like and it's not quite tracking with this, and
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: they rightly say this doesn't kind of work, you can
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: then okay, okay, guys, fine, fine, those two didn't work.
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: Let Jesus and Paul are on the same team.
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: That's great.
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: Now it becomes a very difficult now because then they've
• 38:48
  Speaker 4: got okay, right, well, how do we deal with these
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: Paul letters.
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: We've kind of.
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: Dealt with the notion of Jesus didn't say these things,
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: so we don't have to kind of go there, but
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: Paul did. And we're saying they're on the same team.
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: But we have to try to make it look like
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: whatever the outcome is, it has to look like twenty
• 39:05
  Speaker 4: first century norms. We've just got to get there. We've
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: got to get to the secular liberal values of how
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: we live our life, including full orbed feminism that we
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: have in our culture, so that it becomes really weird
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: for someone to stand up and like question it and
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: to say, actually, I don't think the things that we
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: all think about men and women, and especially on the
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: role of women in church, home and even in society.
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: You could argue that it's slightly different biblically in terms
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: of the text on that.
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: I just think that you become the strange, weird alien person,
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: when in reality we are the aliens. We're the weirdos
• 39:38
  Speaker 4: for sure. Like the last hundred years has been absolutely
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: catastrophic to the morality in the West, Christendom values in
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: the West which have been built over centuries and in
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: you know, one and a half centuries. Really we've absolutely tankled.
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: We just kind of completely try to undermine, the blow
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: up the entire foundations with dynamite and see how much
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: damage we can do, over and over and over again.
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: Absolutely mad. It's been happening on a sliding scale. So
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: I often have these conversations over on this side of
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: the pond, like where did it go wrong? Like where
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: did Britain go wrong? Like there's all sorts of years
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: or dates you go, is it when this person came
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: into power? Is it when this law came in and
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: you're like, I think it's not just like a twenty
• 40:16
  Speaker 4: thirty year thing. It is a much bigger thing. It's
• 40:19
  Speaker 4: like a two hundred year thing of a kind of
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: sliding degradation. And so this is what happens when you
• 40:25
  Speaker 4: are basically perpetually trying to fit Jesus and Paul, but
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: again lessly just the whole Bible, because Jesus and Paul
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: are so often the controversial figures of the New Testament.
• 40:34
  Speaker 4: Really maybe because Paul just wrote so much and Jesus
• 40:37
  Speaker 4: is Jesus, that it becomes the go to sort of
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: like that those are the two people you kind of
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: have to have, you have to deal with first. And
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: I think that when people try to just put them
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: in line with present whatever the present norms are within
• 40:52
  Speaker 4: your generation, you're bounty.
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: There's the phrase, he was a married to the spirit
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: of the age is going to be a widow in
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: the next And we've seen that over and over again,
• 41:02
  Speaker 4: people who wed themselves to whatever's happening right now. Then
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: thirty years later people go, oh, yeah, we don't believe
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: that anymore. So that that so apparently Jesus doesn't think
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: that anymore. He thought it thirty years ago and now
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: he now he doesn't, and so that's kind of the
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: next ridiculous funds they tried to they tried to pull.
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: So it doesn't really matter what the extra Jesus is.
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: It doesn't matter what they what they say in the
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: build up to it. They are going to get to
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: the conclusion that they decided beforehand, which is that Jesus
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: and Paul basically agree with whatever we currently think is
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: okay and that and they would they would kind of
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: be horrified at anyone who said anything different, even though
• 41:37
  Speaker 4: most of the Christians for most of church history would
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: have said very different things to us.
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: And so, and then the next part of your art piece,
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: the heading is how does this thing? How does this
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: kind of thing happen? So? How does this kind of
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: thing happen?
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So the first well, I think the first thing
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: that they they people will say to do is they
• 42:02
  Speaker 4: they as I said, they don't feel that they can
• 42:05
  Speaker 4: challenge these norms because they're so deeply entrenched. So they're
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: like embedded in the culture and the foundations, so we
• 42:12
  Speaker 4: can't actually challenge them, They'll be so it will be
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: horrifying to do that, and we'd be kind of going
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: against God himself if we did that, even though we're
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: like going, hang.
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: On, doesn't God doesn't God?
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: Like?
• 42:24
  Speaker 4: Isn't isn't the Bible God's words? So isn't quoting Paul
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: and quoting even Jesus in lots of other situations, which
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: or quoting what Jesus did, like choosing the twelve apostles
• 42:34
  Speaker 4: and not choosing any women even though you could have
• 42:35
  Speaker 4: chosen at least one woman for his dei quota if
• 42:38
  Speaker 4: he really wanted to. Isn't it like, isn't it weird
• 42:42
  Speaker 4: that we're the ones who are kind of trying our
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: best to kind of argue for something completely contrary to
• 42:47
  Speaker 4: what the Bible quite obviously states. And the reason it
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: happens is because people basically end up kind of going, well,
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: I need this to work. Like I said, I need
• 42:59
  Speaker 4: this to fit. I need the Bible to work for
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: me because I'm pro Bible, I'm pro God and pro Jesus,
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: and I need that those guys to work for me.
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: As it were, rather than us kind of changing and
• 43:09
  Speaker 4: moving in the direction where God would lead us, it's
• 43:12
  Speaker 4: actually going maybe we could actually lead God.
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: Maybe we could kind of treat him like a dog.
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: Gonna lead a little bit.
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: The word of God is a kind of little a
• 43:18
  Speaker 4: pet that we can sort of like move in the
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: direction we want to and teach it tricks almost to
• 43:22
  Speaker 4: do what we want to do. I'm actually saying this
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: off the cuff and says I didn't. But that's something
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: that basically is is what they're doing. That they're basically
• 43:31
  Speaker 4: putting themselves over in an authority over the text.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: And so you can God really say, God really says.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: It all goes back to that.
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: It's always the serpent exactly so.
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: And of course that was the irony that is it's
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: to a woman, isn't it. So the serpent is tricking
• 43:46
  Speaker 4: a woman, and that's what Paul refers to in Wan
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: Timothy too. It's absolutely wild, like feminists cannot get their
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: heads around this that Paul. It's one reason you know
• 43:55
  Speaker 4: that in Wan Timothy too, that he couldn't possibly be
• 43:57
  Speaker 4: just talking about the bolshy women in ephesis, because he's
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: making an argument that goes all the way back to
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: creation and it's saying that for you know, there's a
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: woman who's sin first and she was deceived, and so
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: there's something about even there about the dynamics of how
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: God has made men and women, which is just so
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: hard for people to grasp because they can't deal with generalizations.
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: They will always take the exceptions and try to make
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: the exceptions the rule rather than the exceptions proving the
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: rule when it comes to men and women and their proclivity.
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: Is that kind of thing.
• 44:28
  Speaker 4: And so yeah, So basically that in trying to and
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: trying to basically make the Bible fit their direction of
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: travel that they're currently in, and they don't want that
• 44:38
  Speaker 4: to be interrupted, they will go to any lengths to
• 44:40
  Speaker 4: try to make that work.
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: So yeah, and so in the article I do refer
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: to another.
• 44:46
  Speaker 4: Piece I wrote called Women Leading Men a narrative event,
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: which is I won't go into all of it all
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: of it now, but it's basically like a fictional dialogue
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: I wrote on the basis of these kind of pseudo
• 44:58
  Speaker 4: academic conversations that I've observed many times over the years,
• 45:02
  Speaker 4: and just imagining someone just curiously kind of half knowingly,
• 45:05
  Speaker 4: half unknowingly, like just asking curious questions like okay, so
• 45:08
  Speaker 4: Paul said that, Like why isn't that true?
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: Oh? That was just for like that one. That's a
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: narrative really, So it's a story. Really, the story.
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: What we're supposed to learn from the story just kind
• 45:17
  Speaker 4: of you know, in ephesis, these women were doing this, Okay,
• 45:20
  Speaker 4: so are we allowed? So when do we know when
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: the part of the New Testament is a story and
• 45:25
  Speaker 4: when it isn't. When is it a narrative event that
• 45:27
  Speaker 4: just happened and we don't need to apply it? And
• 45:28
  Speaker 4: when is it authoritative didactic teaching? And so it kind
• 45:32
  Speaker 4: of goes back and forth of the kind of arguments
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: to get tied up in knots on that.
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: So you know, feel free to go and have a
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: look at that. Yeah, but that's how one of the
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: other strategies that's employed.
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you and then you talk about the strange
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: wisdom of God and this is really fascinating to me
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: because you were were you saved at sixteen years old? Yeah?
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: I was. Yeah.
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that will take me a long time to tell
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: that testimony if it's a long one.
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you need to come back. And didn't share
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: that whole story. But what's interesting about that is you
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: you were reading the Bible, the King James version, and
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: what one verse that really struck you was First Corinthians
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: or one Corinthians, as you would say two five that
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men,
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: but in the power of God. Now talk about that
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: and how that affected you and how it relates to
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: this article.
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah so, and I'll tell you actually the specific like
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: I vaguely referred to it in the article, but I'll
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: the specific situation was, again, I'm a new Christian. I
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: don't know anything at all. I don't even know how
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: I knew what Corinthians was. I knew that, I said.
• 46:40
  Speaker 4: I didn't know there was a one or two Corinthians
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: or first or second. I just knew that there was
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: a thing or Cointhians. I had to look it up
• 46:46
  Speaker 4: in the Contents, and I was in bed and I
• 46:47
  Speaker 4: couldn't sleep, and I just had in my head Cointhians
• 46:49
  Speaker 4: Corinthians going around abound.
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: So I had this new tiny thing fact. Let me
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: just stop a second, and let's get it.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: This. This is.
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: My dad.
• 47:02
  Speaker 4: My dad gave me this Bible before I was, before
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: I was a Christian, but before he was even a
• 47:07
  Speaker 4: Christian at the millennium. I don't know why he was.
• 47:09
  Speaker 4: It's just a dad thing to do what needed lost
• 47:12
  Speaker 4: a Christians. But he was like, it's the Millennium. I'm
• 47:14
  Speaker 4: gonna He gave me a gold sovereign worth about one
• 47:17
  Speaker 4: hundred pounds, and he said, you're never allowed to sell this.
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: It's in case you're kind of in the absolute poverty
• 47:23
  Speaker 4: and you don't have anything else. It's a gold sovereign.
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: It will always be worth money. And so I still
• 47:27
  Speaker 4: have that, have the gold sovereign. And I got on
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: the on on the millennium.
• 47:30
  Speaker 5: I don't know why the millennium precipitated this, this kind
• 47:33
  Speaker 5: of like thing, my dad, you need to have yeah,
• 47:39
  Speaker 5: boom and water k thing, and it was yeah.
• 47:41
  Speaker 4: So I got my KJV little Bible and look at this.
• 47:44
  Speaker 4: Look how hard it is to read. Honestly, I know
• 47:47
  Speaker 4: you have to have magnifying glass to read that. So
• 47:50
  Speaker 4: I'm then yeah, I'm then in the middle of the
• 47:52
  Speaker 4: night picking up this Corinthians reading through it.
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: I have no idea what it's about.
• 47:56
  Speaker 4: I'm like reading through like it's in the archaic language,
• 48:00
  Speaker 4: and I just feel like in the spirit that I
• 48:03
  Speaker 4: had a sense that you can listen to God and
• 48:05
  Speaker 4: God can tell you stuff, but that the Bible's authoritative.
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: I was kind of learning what that meant and as
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: I'm reading through One Corinthians, because I just read it
• 48:17
  Speaker 4: the first one, I get to this verse in chapter two,
• 48:20
  Speaker 4: chapter two, verse five, which was that your face should
• 48:22
  Speaker 4: should rest not in the wisdom.
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: Of men, but in the power of God.
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: And it was really it kind of struck home to
• 48:29
  Speaker 4: me at the time because I was that day I'd
• 48:32
  Speaker 4: been told by my English teacher in what we call
• 48:36
  Speaker 4: A levels and what you call her high school. Maybe
• 48:40
  Speaker 4: I was sixteen, whatever that means to you guys. Yeah,
• 48:44
  Speaker 4: he said, you're not going to be You're not going
• 48:46
  Speaker 4: to do English literature university. I was like, that's the
• 48:53
  Speaker 4: only thing I was planning to do. I was halfway
• 48:55
  Speaker 4: through the A levels and basically one more year before
• 48:57
  Speaker 4: you go to university. And that's like and he was like,
• 49:00
  Speaker 4: there's no there's literally no chance you've got. You've got
• 49:03
  Speaker 4: a snowballs chance in hell of going of doing this
• 49:06
  Speaker 4: at university. You're not up to I think I was
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: getting terrible grades in my first year. I was, I
• 49:11
  Speaker 4: was getting like ease, and but I was I had
• 49:14
  Speaker 4: another teacher previously who was like really liked I think
• 49:17
  Speaker 4: I must have had a very floral rhetoric at the time,
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: and he sort of like was a lot more lenient.
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: He was.
• 49:21
  Speaker 4: He was like the kind of pro lgbt of Angelis,
• 49:23
  Speaker 4: because oh yeah, you'll be fine, this would be great.
• 49:25
  Speaker 4: And this other guy was actually just really likes Stone
• 49:27
  Speaker 4: probably actually kind of true, like this is like you're
• 49:29
  Speaker 4: just clearly not up to it. You're not gonna be
• 49:32
  Speaker 4: able to do it. And I was like, Okay, that's
• 49:34
  Speaker 4: like really rocked me and I don't even know what
• 49:36
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna do in my life.
• 49:37
  Speaker 3: This is crazy.
• 49:37
  Speaker 4: And then I just read that verse and since that
• 49:40
  Speaker 4: was that I was going to be able to do
• 49:44
  Speaker 4: the opposite of what this teacher said. Now, of course
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: that does motivate you to actually work hard. He doesn't
• 49:48
  Speaker 4: just magically God just like magically sprinkle some dust over
• 49:50
  Speaker 4: your essays. But I ended up going to university and
• 49:54
  Speaker 4: getting a first which is if you have that language,
• 49:57
  Speaker 4: first class degree, which again, when I was at university,
• 50:02
  Speaker 4: I had a lecturer who was an atheist who told
• 50:05
  Speaker 4: me the same thing and said, you're not going to
• 50:07
  Speaker 4: get a first. You're doing too much evangelism with the
• 50:09
  Speaker 4: Christian Union on the campus. There's no way you're going
• 50:11
  Speaker 4: to be able to get a first, you're doing twenty
• 50:13
  Speaker 4: hours a week of your mission stuff.
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: And I was like, that's fine.
• 50:16
  Speaker 4: I didn't need to get a first, but if I,
• 50:17
  Speaker 4: if God wants me to get a first, I'll get
• 50:19
  Speaker 4: a first. And he was like, I guarantee you won't
• 50:21
  Speaker 4: get it first, and I said, I will if God
• 50:24
  Speaker 4: wants me to get it first, it's fine and we
• 50:26
  Speaker 4: don't need.
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: To argue about it.
• 50:27
  Speaker 4: And he was like will I got You're not going
• 50:29
  Speaker 4: to get a first because you have to cut out
• 50:31
  Speaker 4: all this evangelism. It was like, I'm not going to
• 50:32
  Speaker 4: cut out of angelism. Do you not understand? Why would
• 50:35
  Speaker 4: I do that in order.
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: To complicate you?
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: And then and he was like, look, if you if
• 50:39
  Speaker 4: you get a first, I'll come to church. That's how
• 50:42
  Speaker 4: sure I am that you're not going to get a first.
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: And I got, I got this.
• 50:45
  Speaker 4: I just scraped over the land and got a first
• 50:47
  Speaker 4: in the end. And then so I had to hold
• 50:48
  Speaker 4: him to his vow, which which was very hard to
• 50:51
  Speaker 4: get him to do. He didn't actually ever come to church,
• 50:53
  Speaker 4: but he ended up having to watch an evangelistic video
• 50:55
  Speaker 4: that I made that was like forty five minutes long.
• 50:58
  Speaker 4: And then we had a long dialogue about it, so
• 51:00
  Speaker 4: we got some got somewhere with it in the end.
• 51:02
  Speaker 4: But that was again all an expression of basically, the
• 51:05
  Speaker 4: wisdom of God is bigger than the wisdom of man.
• 51:09
  Speaker 4: So what people tell you is inevitably the case. This
• 51:12
  Speaker 4: is just the way it is, and you don't get
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: to argue with that. This is the ceiling and your
• 51:16
  Speaker 4: culture and your generation, your social conventions you've been given.
• 51:19
  Speaker 4: You're not allowed to say otherwise. God is allowed to
• 51:21
  Speaker 4: say otherwise. Actually, because God is God and you're not.
• 51:24
  Speaker 4: So that's where the whole concept of the wisdom of
• 51:26
  Speaker 4: God comes in, and the wisdom of God triumphs over
• 51:28
  Speaker 4: the wisdom of men. It doesn't mean that we don't
• 51:31
  Speaker 4: care about natural wisdom. That's a whole other philosophical discussion.
• 51:34
  Speaker 4: I do believe in natural law, et cetera. I just
• 51:36
  Speaker 4: mean that God's revelation is a triumphant and God's revelation
• 51:41
  Speaker 4: is final. And so though ultimately in my situation that
• 51:45
  Speaker 4: was about a personal situation, actually that verse is more
• 51:48
  Speaker 4: profound than just that one moment in my life.
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: Actually was.
• 51:51
  Speaker 4: It shaped the rest of my life in the way
• 51:52
  Speaker 4: I see scripture itself and the way that I see
• 51:55
  Speaker 4: it challenging the conventions of our day, which is something
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: that you know, that's why I got in trouble lecturer
• 52:00
  Speaker 4: ultimately for challenging the conventions on LGBT, And ultimately, you know,
• 52:05
  Speaker 4: you get in similar trouble, probably worse in evangelical circles
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: when you challenge feminism, because many evangelicals are happy to
• 52:10
  Speaker 4: challenge LGBT in one way or another, but don't touch
• 52:14
  Speaker 4: feminism or you know, the she wolves come out.
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah. By the way, getting a first in is in
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: the equivalent in the States is graduating summa cum laude
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: basically is okay, so's it's just high honors. It's very high.
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: It's like the highest honors. So good on your mate.
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: So uh. And you say in the and you say,
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: it has been sad to observe within recent decades just
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: how many Bible believing women have been duped to believe
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: that because God's wisdom appears so alien to the feminist
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: world in which they live and breathe and move and
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: have their being. As I just added, because it is
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: so misunderstandable, there must be some something wrong with it.
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: So there's this kind of like you know, this it's
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: like this osmosis, you know, we're in this this this
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: feminist kind of soup or this ocean, and were these
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: fish that are just absorbing this and it's hard to
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: break through that.
• 53:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, yeah, And that's basically because many women have
• 53:27
  Speaker 4: just been told that they're following the examples they've been set,
• 53:30
  Speaker 4: and those examples are obviously the women in the churches,
• 53:33
  Speaker 4: but also the men who aren't challenging feminism. So there's
• 53:36
  Speaker 4: a bit of a problem here of like preaching that
• 53:38
  Speaker 4: doesn't ever challenge women, so it assumes that women are
• 53:42
  Speaker 4: angels who don't sin, and so it would be the
• 53:45
  Speaker 4: worst thing ever for a pastor who's going to more.
• 53:47
  Speaker 4: Even even in the feminist world, it's still weird for
• 53:50
  Speaker 4: women to be pastors, I know. You know, you had
• 53:52
  Speaker 4: Rick Warren and the SBC trying to kind of trying
• 53:56
  Speaker 4: to sort of strong arm and use his influence to
• 53:58
  Speaker 4: try and move the SBC in that direction in the States,
• 54:00
  Speaker 4: for example, but still a women pastor in evangelical circles
• 54:04
  Speaker 4: is like a bridge too far for most Americans. I
• 54:06
  Speaker 4: think in Britain it's slightly different, as a Baptist tradition
• 54:10
  Speaker 4: here which has loads of women passes, but still the
• 54:12
  Speaker 4: average conservative evangelical church wouldn't have a women pastores. It's
• 54:15
  Speaker 4: always men who are preaching generally, and so they find
• 54:18
  Speaker 4: it hard because they're trying to be chivalrous inverted commas,
• 54:21
  Speaker 4: and so therefore they don't want to tell women off
• 54:23
  Speaker 4: because that would be bad. And then the women are
• 54:25
  Speaker 4: likely to respond more emotionally to that and then call
• 54:28
  Speaker 4: him abusive and say that actually my sermon, his sermon.
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: Harmed me in some way.
• 54:33
  Speaker 4: And who wants to hear of someone you know and
• 54:36
  Speaker 4: yet another man seeming to be toxically masculine in the
• 54:39
  Speaker 4: way he approaches things. And so basically it conditions the
• 54:42
  Speaker 4: preachers to not challenge women and therefore not to challenge
• 54:46
  Speaker 4: the issues of feminism coming to the church. See what
• 54:48
  Speaker 4: you'll often hear is if you do hear a critique
• 54:51
  Speaker 4: of feminism in evangelical circles, it will be something like, oh, yeah,
• 54:54
  Speaker 4: like extreme radical feminism is bad, but like normal feminism
• 54:58
  Speaker 4: is completely fine.
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: I know it isn't.
• 55:00
  Speaker 4: Actually, like if you just look at the origins, no
• 55:02
  Speaker 4: one really looked into the history of it at all,
• 55:04
  Speaker 4: and how much of it was at the very beginning
• 55:07
  Speaker 4: undermining the household as a as a concept in in
• 55:11
  Speaker 4: terms of the household that God has set up. And
• 55:13
  Speaker 4: there's so much in the New Testament about the household
• 55:15
  Speaker 4: that people just kind of forget all about it. And
• 55:17
  Speaker 4: I was interviewing a guy not long ago called C. R.
• 55:19
  Speaker 4: Wiley and an author who wrote a book called The
• 55:21
  Speaker 4: Household and the War for the Cosmos, which is him
• 55:25
  Speaker 4: kind of going, this is how significant the household is
• 55:28
  Speaker 4: in God's plan in terms of the mission of the
• 55:30
  Speaker 4: church even and how much it affects all of society
• 55:32
  Speaker 4: as a kind of bulwark, as a building block for
• 55:35
  Speaker 4: all healthy societies, you know, as you guys know in
• 55:37
  Speaker 4: the States a lot in terms of the importance of family.
• 55:40
  Speaker 4: So feminism has always undermined that.
• 55:42
  Speaker 3: And yet there's so many boons for women seemingly.
• 55:46
  Speaker 4: That it's hard for them to you know, to put
• 55:49
  Speaker 4: that away because actually they they've inherited all of these
• 55:52
  Speaker 4: sort of these positives they would see as positives, even
• 55:55
  Speaker 4: though there's loads of obvious negatives. There's loads of obvious
• 55:58
  Speaker 4: negatives for loads of women who end up let's say,
• 56:00
  Speaker 4: without children, or with that as many children as they'd like,
• 56:02
  Speaker 4: or they seem unfulfilled, they didn't spend enough time with
• 56:05
  Speaker 4: their children when they were young, that kind of thing.
• 56:08
  Speaker 4: They'll pushed back into another career. But they were told
• 56:10
  Speaker 4: that career would fulfill them the same way motherhood would
• 56:12
  Speaker 4: fulfill them, or they would, you know, whatever it is.
• 56:15
  Speaker 4: It might be that they were told that they should
• 56:17
  Speaker 4: take on the responsibility of a man, either in their
• 56:19
  Speaker 4: family or in their work or in the church, and
• 56:22
  Speaker 4: they'll just run it like they would as a mother,
• 56:25
  Speaker 4: and so that will ultimately affect the church as well
• 56:28
  Speaker 4: long term. But they'll feel like they're doing a good job.
• 56:30
  Speaker 4: And if you came and said you shouldn't really be
• 56:31
  Speaker 4: doing that, that is impossible. It's not computable. You couldn't
• 56:35
  Speaker 4: really if you you can't have an abstract debate about it.
• 56:38
  Speaker 4: Because her whole and for her perception of her whole
• 56:41
  Speaker 4: calling and everything that she knows of who God is
• 56:44
  Speaker 4: and what is good about the world is shattered. And
• 56:47
  Speaker 4: she thinks that it's because what she's believed her whole
• 56:50
  Speaker 4: life is just true and that's what everyone's sawt and
• 56:53
  Speaker 4: it just isn't. And there's a kind of possibly an
• 56:56
  Speaker 4: existential crisis for lots of feminists coming her questions when
• 56:59
  Speaker 4: they kind of realized, actually, this feminism thing hasn't been
• 57:02
  Speaker 4: around that long, and what did we do?
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: What did all the women do before that? For thousands
• 57:07
  Speaker 3: of years?
• 57:08
  Speaker 4: But all of these women just abused in this horrible
• 57:10
  Speaker 4: system of evil men controlling all these women.
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: Is that do you really believe that?
• 57:14
  Speaker 4: Do you really believe that's the world that God created?
• 57:17
  Speaker 4: And is that the world that God has seen fit
• 57:20
  Speaker 4: to grow his church within? And see all these glorious
• 57:23
  Speaker 4: things in culture grow up in this horrible environment where
• 57:27
  Speaker 4: women were just forced to have all these children and
• 57:29
  Speaker 4: against their will. And it's almost that this horrible perception
• 57:32
  Speaker 4: of history which is required so required narrative to make
• 57:35
  Speaker 4: feminism seem like it's better, and I just don't think
• 57:38
  Speaker 4: it is. There's more women on antidepressants today than has
• 57:41
  Speaker 4: ever been the case. You know, there's a book by
• 57:43
  Speaker 4: is it Becha Merkle even Exile that talks about the
• 57:46
  Speaker 4: problems of women in the modern world who actually aren't happy.
• 57:50
  Speaker 4: So it's kind of positive that there's increasingly some women
• 57:52
  Speaker 4: who are speaking out about it. On our side of
• 57:54
  Speaker 4: the partner's a woman called Louise Perry who recently became
• 57:58
  Speaker 4: a Christian, and she was a kind of but maybe
• 58:00
  Speaker 4: she still call herself some kind of feminist, but she
• 58:02
  Speaker 4: would challenge the sexual revolution and its effects on women
• 58:06
  Speaker 4: in loads of ways. So so basically the atmosphere that
• 58:09
  Speaker 4: people are in it it's like it's hard to convince
• 58:12
  Speaker 4: somebody feminism isn't good when, yeah, that job depends on
• 58:17
  Speaker 4: them thinking it's good.
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: Whatever.
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: I just actually just saw a viral clip today on
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: Twitter of a woman probably she's probably, I don't know,
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: in her late thirties, and she was just talking about
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: how she was sold a lie and how she regrets
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: all these things in her life now and she didn't
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: do you know, she didn't have the family she wanted
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: now and she regrets not staying home with her kids
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: and et cetera, et cetera. And what I love about
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: my own mother is she was not only not a feminist,
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: but she was an anti feminist. She my mother would
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: call herself. My father's name was Leslie Cook. I don't know,
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: like I guess he was named I guess they named
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: him a for Leslie Howard from Gone with the Wind.
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: But my father's name was Leslie Cook. So my mother
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: would call herself when she would talk on the phone
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: to some I don't know, she was calling some whatever
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: to make an appointment, she would call herself missus leslie cook.
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: I mean, could you imagine someone doing that now? And uh,
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: I just love And then of course she also was
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: an anti feminist in the fact that she had eight children. Yeah,
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: that'll do it, and so you uh and by the way,
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: she was a quote this is and this isn't God,
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: I'm sure a feminist creator made up this term. But
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: she was a stay at home mom my mother, which
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: is which is a just ridiculous term.
• 59:55
  Speaker 3: So, yeah, my wife gets asked all the time, you know,
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: so what do you do? It's like, yeah, the most
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 3: offensive question. So well, I'm a homemaker. Yeah, only like
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 3: the kind of most important job in the world.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: Really, yeah, the most beautiful, most creative, beautiful job you
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: could ever have in the world. Like, yeah, like what
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: do you want to do? Just be Dilbert.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah, the phenomenal influence of of a of a mother
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 4: is unbelievably like significant to civilization. So it's just insane.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 4: The trade off is so terrible. So so it's I'm
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 4: glad that there are women like your mother, and uh.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and your wife and so so, and then you
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: quote we're we're running out of time, but you quote
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: another quote from Paul when he says, oh, and why
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: do you tell us why you do this?
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 3: Oh?
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: The depths and riches of the riches and the wisdom
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: of God. In the wisdom and knowledge of God, How
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: unsearchable are his judgments and how unscrutable his ways?
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 3: Mm hmm. Yeah.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 4: So actually funny that that verse in Roman's eleven was
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 4: what I was reading my Bible. That's how my mind
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 4: works sometimes, and like that, the article basically came from
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 4: that verse I was reading. And of course he's talking
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 4: about Israel and the mystery of Israel and the fate
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 4: of the Jews, cut off branches, etc. And the kind
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 4: of mystery of salvation. So that's what that's in the
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 4: immediate context, that's what it's about. But it struck me
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 4: again a bit like were the one Corindians two, verse five,
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 4: issue of God's wisdom triumphing over our wisdom, and how
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 4: there's something perennially mysterious about God's wisdom. But even in
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 4: such cases where I, you know, you and I might
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 4: will agree on on feminism being a problem, There'll be
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 4: some people who to whom it appears still like a
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 4: mystery that is unveiled. And I think that that's the
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 4: big issue, that people are unwilling to follow the wisdom
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 4: of God when it seems difficult, inconvenient, or inscrutable or mysterious.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 4: So let's say there's a woman who feels really in
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 4: her bones that she's called to ministry over men, And
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 4: like I said earlier, I don't think that means that
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 4: God has called you to exercise our sority over men
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 4: in contradiction of his word where he said you can't.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 3: And because it's just like a gay.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 4: Person saying, I just we're so in love and God
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 4: is just in this, like you know the cord of
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 4: three strands. God is just in this and you just
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 4: can't tell us otherwise. Well, it's exactly the same. So
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 4: if there's an even do like a feminists listening to us,
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 4: your logic is exactly the same. If you say I
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 4: want to do the thing and God has just told me,
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 4: it's exactly I've had so many conversations with gay people
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 4: who would identify as Christians in the Methodist Church and
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 4: other places who are just like that is just you
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 4: can't argue out of it because it's like God is
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 4: here and we know that God has like been with
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 4: us in our marriage or our relationship in some way,
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 4: so you can't argue, apparently, and it's the same thing.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: And so I just think that that's the issue. You've
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 3: got to know, what you've done.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 4: Is you've interpreted God's wisdom. You've kind of pushed it
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 4: off to the side of the inconvenient bits. They just
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 4: challenge you, and then you've, you know, rather than rest
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 4: without obeying God's wisdom even when it's difficult for you,
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 4: even when it's mysterious and you don't really know, why
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 4: would God stop women doing this? Why would he not
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 4: want me to lead this church when it seems like
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 4: I'm doing a good job and all these people keep
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 4: telling me how my sermons are going well. So shouldn't
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 4: Surely it's going well and God.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 3: Is in this and it's good.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 4: It's the same as a gay couple who like someone
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 4: meets them, Oh, you're way better than all these divorced
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 4: heterosexual couples. You're such a great relationship, etcetera. Well, if
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 4: you saw that kind of feedback and you're a gay couple,
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 4: obviously go yeah, God is in this.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: This is good.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 4: So I think it's one of those things where people
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 4: go again the fallacy of trying to prove your situation
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 4: is what God agrees with. You're pulling God along as
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 4: the pet, the dog.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: On the lead.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 4: He will agree with me, and now he really, you know,
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 4: he's We're so glad that we've you know, I think
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 4: I did a whole like a bit of a satirical
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 4: part in the article of you know God. So God
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 4: must be so glad that we've come along to kind of,
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 4: you know, teach him how to do his wisdom better
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 4: than he told us. So our version of God's wisdom
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 4: and judgments are, which Paul call in Screwta in Romans eleven,
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 4: really are far better than God's version of God's wisdom
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 4: and judgments. You know, that's kind of the reality that
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 4: we'll end up dealing with because people are so unwilling
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 4: to challenge that that very that very core thing, whether
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 4: it's about who they are as a person or what
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 4: they're doing in their life, which is those two can
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 4: often be connected. So if it's if it's ministry related,
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 4: it's just God's wisdom must just need some editing, It
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 4: needs some some of our kind of you know, sprinkles
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 4: some magic dust over it, whether from scholars or whether
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 4: through just our sort of finessing of the text, and
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 4: then it will somehow agree with us and agree that
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 4: whatever we're currently doing is what God wants.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: Yes, And you in that you in the your article,
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: there's a there's some more into it, into it, But
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: you in the article with the quote from Job, well,
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: what is that quote? Yeah?
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 4: It was if I remember it's God in It's Job
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 4: thirty eight where God speaks to Job out of the whirlwind,
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 4: and it's like, where were you when I created the
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 4: foundations of the earth? And I was kind of thinking,
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 4: that's that's something that a feminist could bear in mind
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 4: when they're when they're thinking these things.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 3: Because again, you.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 4: Think of Job, Gosh, I think somebody's got like a
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 4: he's got a cause for grievance, a cause for being
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 4: a persecuted community, like we hear from so many feminists.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 4: The women have just been pressed down and abused for
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 4: so long. You think Job, Hello, how did God respond
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 4: to Job? He didn't say I'm so so sorry for
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 4: your heart, I'm so so sorry that the God inc
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 4: Is going to write you this letter. We're going to
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 4: do some compensation. That's going to be really and he's
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 4: just Job has been absolutely through the mill, and he's
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 4: had people telling him he's wrong the whole time, et cetera.
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 4: And God does rebuke those people actually, which is interesting,
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 4: of course, but he also you know, he speaks to rebuke.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 4: He kind of speaks to Job in a very by
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 4: reasserting that his wisdom is above Job's wisdom.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 3: Where were you? You weren't there?
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: Were you?
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 3: You weren't there.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 4: Before time began? And I was laying the foundations of
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 4: the earth. So maybe like, maybe we'll go with my plan.
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 4: Maybe we'll go with my wisdom unless you were there?
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 4: I mean you do you give orders to the morning?
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 4: I mean, do you when was the last one you
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 4: gave orders to the morning?
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 3: Could?
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: I do?
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 3: I do that all the time.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 4: I do it every morning, actually, and I've been doing
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 4: it for a long time since before time. And so
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 4: I think that that whole notion of like who who
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 4: are we?
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: Who are we?
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 4: It goes back to that one Gudians passage. You know
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 4: that the wisdom of men is is not what our
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 4: faith Wesson. It's not the conventions of the age. It's
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 4: the wisdom of the ages, which is God's wisdom, which
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 4: is always triumphed throughout time and throughout history. And I
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 4: think that's something that we need to hold on to
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 4: as those who claim to hold faster God's word in
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 4: all these matters.
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: All right, well we're going to leave it there. Well,
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: link to the article below and tell us just I
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: mean they obviously if you click on the link, you'll
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: get to your substack. But how do people find your substack?
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 4: I think they would, Well, they can find the link,
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 4: but they can I guess they. It's that good Fight
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 4: dot substack dot com. And so if you're familiar with substack,
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 4: it's kind of a new kind of cool blog. It's
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 4: not really new anymore, but like it's what it's what
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 4: everyone's got, what it's what. This makes blogging more respectable,
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 4: I think, yeah, And so people it's kind of a
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 4: social media platform where people are writing kind of significant
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 4: articles which are linking into one another, that kind of thing. So,
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 4: if you're not familiar with substut, could you go and
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 4: check it out? And I said that good Fight is
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 4: one you could also find me on Twitter if you
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 4: want to go and find out bet more trouble.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: Yes, well, Aaron Edwards, thank you so much for coming
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: on at the last minute. I know it's late there.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: It's probably ten o'clock in the UK or something.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah it's ten, yes it is, yeah, twenty two yes, right, yeah,
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 4: but go get something.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 3: The things I do for you America today.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: Really you really do a lot for the US. Thank
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: you so much. I appreciate it.
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 3: That is pleasure.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: God, bless God, bless. Thank you for.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: Listening to this episode of The Beckett Cook Show. Your
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: support makes this content possible. All episodes of The Becky
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: Cook Show are also available on YouTube. For more information
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: about Beckett and his ministry, visit his website at Benkacook
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: dot com.
• 1:08:02
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• 1:08:04
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• 1:08:07
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• 1:08:11
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