Latest / Play Therapy Parenting: Real Parenting Questions Answered by a Child Therapist / S2E38 - When Parents Struggle: How to Support Your Child Through Life's Hard Seasons w/ Special Guest Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

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S2E38 - When Parents Struggle: How to Support Your Child Through Life's Hard Seasons w/ Special Guest Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby · Play Therapy Parenting: Real Parenting Questions Answered by a Child Therapist

• 0:02
  You're listening to the
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  Play Therapy Parenting Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks.
• 0:09
  Hi,
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  I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,
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  The Kid Counselor.
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  This is the Play Therapy Parenting Podcast where I give you insight,
• 0:15
  awareness,
• 0:15
  and enlightenment about your parenting
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  and your relationship with your kids.
• 0:19
  Today's episode,
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  we have a special episode.
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  I typically do not do guests,
• 0:24
  but
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  I have Doctor Lisa Marie Bobby on with me today,
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  and I'm so excited about this.
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  She is going to tell you all about herself,
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  but she is a marriage and family therapist specializing in working with families
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  and specifically adults,
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  obviously,
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  and so I'm so excited to have her insight and perspective,
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  how we navigate.
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  Things that happen in our lives as families,
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  as parents,
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  how that impacts our kids,
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  how that influences the things that we need to do,
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  and just kind of the broad scope of all things related to being a family,
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  we're going to dive in.
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  So,
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  Lisa,
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  thank you so much for being here.
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  Can you tell everyone about you a little bit?
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  Thank you so much,
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  Brenna.
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  It's such a pleasure.
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  well,
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  I mean,
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  you summed it up so nicely.
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  I'm a marriage and family therapist.
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  I'm also a psychologist.
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  I'm a board certified coach,
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  which makes me very focused,
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  I think,
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  on
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  outcomes and results.
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  And yes,
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  in my practice,
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  And we specialize in growth,
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  love,
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  happiness,
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  and success for adults.
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  But really with the focus of
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  how are we as adults developing ourselves
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  personally in order to feel happy,
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  fulfilled,
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  like we're being the best version of ourselves,
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  going through challenging life transitions,
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  like breakups or divorces,
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  with an eye on how does this help us evolve?
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  And then certainly,
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  how do we have healthy,
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  happy,
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  fulfilling relationships.
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  With
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  friends,
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  families,
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  partners,
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  ourselves,
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  our children,
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  and then success in whatever way you define that,
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  but with the idea being,
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  are you fulfilling your life's purpose,
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  personally,
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  professionally,
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  and what do you need to do to create that for yourself?
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  So that is what I do,
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  and I'm so thrilled.
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  to be here today to talk with you and
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  your community about this incredibly important aspect of life,
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  which is,
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  how do we be the kind of parent
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  that we want to be?
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  Because that touches on all of those dimensions.
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  I mean,
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  I think I have yet to meet a person
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  with children
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  who would say
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  that
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  anything is more important
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  than the happiness and well-being of their kids.
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  That is like the ultimate definition of success,
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  right?
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  And so there's a lot here for us to discuss.
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  A lot,
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  yes,
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  and we'll whittle down for time's sake and just logistics,
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  but yes,
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  we're gonna dive into as much as we possibly can,
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  so.
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  One of your areas of expertise is
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  divorce and separation and breakups and
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  and what that looks like just for the family unit,
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  for the individuals,
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  and obviously in our work,
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  you know,
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  we're child-centered play therapists
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  and all of the parenting stuff that I put out is through that child-centered lens.
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  So
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  my audience is familiar with the child-centered
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  approach as well as the parenting stuff,
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  but
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  it's interesting because we can't
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  extract one from the other.
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  And when we think about the stuff that we go through just in everyday life,
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  it naturally has a trickle down effect to our children.
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  And so one of the things we talk about on the podcast all the time
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  is becoming the best version of ourselves that
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  we can and being intentional and purposeful and thoughtful
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  to make changes that we need to make and
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  think about things we need to think about,
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  and it's just awareness and it's focused attention.
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  So I think this is going to be so valuable,
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  so helpful,
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  and and and parents really,
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  my audience specifically,
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  but I think parents in general,
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  we're seeing a little bit of a shift,
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  and I've actually kind of been identifying this recently.
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  I think there was a stretch where
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  parents became a little bit disengaged.
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  I think parents kind of
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  got into this mentality of,
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  I just,
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  you know,
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  kids can just be kids and do their thing.
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  And we're seeing a little bit of a shift to more engagement,
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  more investment,
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  more attention,
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  and that is such a beautiful thing for our
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  society and for our culture and for our country.
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  Yet at the same time,
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  I also think that
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  we have these ideals and sometimes the practical application is what's missing.
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  So I know that today we're going to get some practical application,
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  which I'm really looking forward to.
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  So let's start with the topic of separation
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  or divorce because I know that statistically,
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  you know,
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  that's really high numbers,
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  and I know that a lot of my audience
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  is either actively going through a divorce or separation,
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  or they have in the past.
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  So
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  I'd like to spend a little bit of time on that,
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  then we'll pivot away from that and talk about some more universal things.
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  But
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  what do you think in your role as a marriage and
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  family therapist and a psychologist and you specialize in this,
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  so this is kind of your
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  realm.
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  What
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  do parents need to understand
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  about how
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  a divorce and or a separation
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  impacts their children?
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  What,
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  what effects does that have?
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  And not necessarily from the clinical side of the children,
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  but what do parents need to be mindful of
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  so that parents can actually do something
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  in
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  response,
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  because it's not just,
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  oh gosh,
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  there's all of these effects,
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  but what,
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  what could do parents need to be aware of
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  so that there's an antidote for these things.
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  OK.
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  Well,
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  Brenna,
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  it just so happens I have very strong opinions on this subject,
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  and
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  I love strong opinions.
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  If it's,
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  if it's OK,
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  could we even just like back up a little bit further because you asked,
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  as a marriage and family therapist,
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  like,
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  what do parents really need to know?
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  And I think that before we even get
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  to having to make hard decisions about a divorce.
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  For separation,
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  there is
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  really important stuff that almost nobody knows that can make a huge difference
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  in long term outcomes.
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  For example,
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  did you know
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  that most therapists who see couples for couples counseling
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  have no specialized education or training
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  in marriage and family therapy?
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  Like,
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  very few.
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  So what happens is that a couple gets into a rough patch,
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  as literally all couples do.
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  There's not a relationship in the history of the world
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  that doesn't have stuff to work through,
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  right?
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  But people make the mistake of choosing an unqualified provider.
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  As
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  many people do,
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  or deciding,
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  well,
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  we need to go through our health insurance to pay for this,
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  having no idea
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  that improving your relationship is not
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  medically necessary treatment for anything,
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  so they wind up with a clinical mental health person
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  who will then diagnose and seek to treat the psychiatric
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  disorder in one of the partners.
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  So in either of those situations,
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  Brenna,
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  You have a couple with a sincere interest and a very real need
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  in making positive changes in their relationship,
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  and then they go to couples counseling.
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  It quite predictably doesn't work.
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  And
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  this poor couple is left with this,
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  oh,
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  well,
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  what does that mean about us?
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  We went to marriage counseling.
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  We tried everything,
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  and
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  I guess the only choice
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  is
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  to separate or divorce when that may not
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  be
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  true.
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  And it makes me absolutely crazy because,
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  you know,
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  Kids can be OK in the aftermath of a divorce and and frequently are,
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  but it is a very difficult life path,
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  and it's very stressful,
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  and it's nothing that anybody wants.
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  And when you consider the alternative,
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  here's something that is so beautiful and
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  important for kids is to witness their parents
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  tackling.
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  Relational issues head on in an authentic,
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  loving,
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  committed way,
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  and doing the work in order to be better partners for each other,
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  seeking to improve their communication,
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  the way they show love and respect.
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  I mean,
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  our kids are watching
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  how we solve.
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  Problems.
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  And it's not just like,
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  oh,
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  look at how happy my parents are.
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  We are
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  silently teaching our children
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  how to have healthy,
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  high quality relationships
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  with their own partners in the future.
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  So there's a lot at stake here because if all the kids sees as they were fighting a lot.
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  They try to go to counseling,
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  maybe it didn't work,
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  and then we got divorced.
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  Where is the roadmap
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  for how to heal and grow a relationship?
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  And I work with many adults who,
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  uh,
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  do not have a fundamental map of the
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  world in which relationship repair is even possible.
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  Because they saw their parents get divorced,
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  perhaps a few times.
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  And I think that's a really sad thing.
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  So that would actually be my,
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  my number one thing,
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  like,
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  how do we as adults help our kids with divorce is first of all,
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  do a really good job
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  of finding out if that air quote final solution.
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  It really is,
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  and maybe it is,
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  but I've it's also true that there are
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  some situations that are absolutely not sustainable,
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  they're not safe,
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  and it really does need to be done,
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  and that's OK.
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  But there's a lot of shades of gray,
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  and
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  just because you don't know how to
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  solve the relationship problems that you're experiencing
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  doesn't mean that they can't be solved.
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  And if it would be helpful to you,
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  I could talk more about
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  things that people can do
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  to help.
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  In that decision making process,
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  so that if they do decide to pull the plug and get divorced,
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  they can be quite confident
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  that that was the right decision,
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  because that will impact the way that they handle it and the way that they show up
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  for their kids.
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  And that's
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  what this is all about at the end of the day.
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  And parent's number one fear,
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  oftentimes is if we did end this,
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  what would it do to the kids?
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  Mhm.
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  Yeah,
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  so often,
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  it's a little different than the question that you asked.
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  No,
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  but I'm so glad that you responded in that way because
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  not my wheelhouse at all.
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  And so I'm actually really grateful to,
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  to kind of take it a step further back and
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  I had two thoughts as you were sharing your response.
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  So the first is you said that there's no
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  roadmap to healthy relationships if a child doesn't see it
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  exhibited and demonstrated and they don't
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  observationally learn what that looks like.
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  You know,
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  I think we have this connotation that
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  the word conflict or
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  confrontation,
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  for example,
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  is inherently a problem.
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  But
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  at its root,
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  the word confrontation or to confront is just to come in front of.
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  And I think often that what we miss is if we come in front of each other and we say,
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  hey,
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  here's my side of this.
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  I want to hear your side.
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  Let's figure out what we're going to do about
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  this once we know where the other person stands.
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  Confrontation is so important.
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  It's so valuable,
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  and it's such a positive thing.
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  And so I mean I think about that a lot.
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  We often see parents or we hear of parents that are like,
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  oh,
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  you know,
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  I just,
• 11:44
  I don't want my kids to see us fight.
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  I don't want my kids to hear us fight.
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  We're not doing them any justice or any service by trying to pretend
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  that everything is great all the time.
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  What we're actually teaching them is,
• 11:56
  what does it look like to say I'm sorry?
• 11:58
  What does it look like to take ownership and responsibility when we make mistakes?
• 12:02
  What does it look like to be patient,
• 12:04
  even when you don't want to be?
• 12:05
  What does it look like to unconditionally love
• 12:07
  someone when they're driving you up a wall?
• 12:09
  What does it look like to choose to say something kind instead of something angry?
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  That is what we model for our kids,
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  and I think that that is so powerful.
• 12:18
  Now here let me enlarge this a little bit.
• 12:20
  You said there's no roadmap for
• 12:23
  For the,
• 12:23
  the healthy relationship,
• 12:24
  otherwise repair repair.
• 12:28
  OK,
• 12:28
  so there's also no roadmap for parenting.
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  And this is one of the things we talk about on this podcast
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  all the time is we either parent the way we were parented,
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  or we hate the way we were parented
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  and we about-face and we say,
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  well,
• 12:42
  I'm going to do something differently,
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  but in either scenario we're trapped in a limited set of options.
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  And so I think to kind of bring that back to what you're saying.
• 12:51
  It seems as though there's a limited set of options often in parent's perception,
• 12:56
  but what you're offering is,
• 12:57
  but if you go to someone who's really highly trained and really knowledgeable and
• 13:01
  can really help you think through this and talk through this and navigate this,
• 13:05
  then regardless of the path that you end up on,
• 13:08
  you know that you are confident and satisfied.
• 13:12
  With the decisions that were made,
• 13:13
  rather than going,
• 13:14
  well,
• 13:15
  maybe that wasn't what I should have done.
• 13:17
  Maybe we didn't for that and
• 13:19
  and all of the maybes and the might haves and the what ifs and whatever,
• 13:22
  now all of a sudden that's a whole other layer.
• 13:25
  Instead,
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  I know 100% for sure
• 13:29
  that this is what needed to be done.
• 13:31
  We worked on it and we figured it out,
• 13:33
  or we said this is irreparable,
• 13:35
  but we at least had advisement and knowledge
• 13:38
  and awareness and understanding before we made that decision
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  and that absolutely would impact
• 13:44
  the child's perception of all of that
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  because there's confidence in the outcome.
• 13:50
  And even,
• 13:51
  well,
• 13:51
  to,
• 13:51
  to clarify this a little bit more,
• 13:54
  so there is a couple.
• 13:55
  counseling or relationship coaching that is for
• 13:58
  the purpose of improving a relationship.
• 14:00
  And the premise is that two people are coming into that
• 14:03
  with the intention of making a relationship better.
• 14:06
  That expectation is like a prerequisite of that work,
• 14:09
  but
• 14:10
  not all couples are in that space.
• 14:12
  So there's actually a totally different thing
• 14:16
  that even a lot of marriage and family therapists
• 14:19
  don't know about or practice,
• 14:21
  and that is called discernment counseling or discernment coaching.
• 14:25
  And that is not for the purpose of improving a relationship.
• 14:29
  The entire thing is helping two people determine.
• 14:34
  Is there a basis for working on it?
• 14:38
  Do we want to do that?
• 14:39
  Is there a commitment there?
• 14:41
  If we did,
• 14:43
  what would be involved?
• 14:44
  Because sometimes when couples
• 14:46
  start having problems,
• 14:47
  like one person is leaning out,
• 14:50
  one person is leaning in.
• 14:52
  And so,
• 14:52
  if two people aren't on the same page,
• 14:55
  if they do try marriage counseling,
• 14:57
  it won't work.
• 14:58
  So what you're describing with discernment coaching,
• 15:01
  the outcome of that is
• 15:04
  clarity.
• 15:05
  That's what it's for.
• 15:06
  So I just wanted to throw that out to your listeners,
• 15:09
  because I know that you and I are very much aligned in this belief
• 15:14
  that who you work with
• 15:16
  matters a lot.
• 15:17
  That most people don't know about the
• 15:20
  specialized skill sets that different therapists have and that not
• 15:25
  Every therapist is the same.
• 15:27
  And I think there's a therapy like umbrella term,
• 15:30
  and you've been such a strong advocate for like,
• 15:32
  no,
• 15:33
  child-centered play therapy is this distinct thing.
• 15:36
  There are different competencies,
• 15:38
  and it's very much like this in the,
• 15:40
  the couple's counseling and relational sphere.
• 15:43
  But I think not enough people know about this.
• 15:45
  So they can't make informed decisions in these crossroads moments,
• 15:50
  and that can lead to long term outcomes
• 15:53
  and consequences,
• 15:54
  quite frankly.
• 15:55
  So thank you for giving me just a second to say that out loud.
• 15:57
  Yeah,
• 15:57
  of course.
• 15:58
  I'm so glad that's that's really helpful.
• 16:00
  And again,
• 16:00
  that's that's what this episode is about.
• 16:02
  It's practical knowledge
• 16:05
  and.
• 16:05
  that you can actually apply so that you
• 16:08
  feel confident in what's happening with your family.
• 16:12
  So I'm really happy.
• 16:13
  And then I just wanted to,
• 16:14
  you all know,
• 16:15
  my listeners know,
• 16:15
  I'm a huge country music fan,
• 16:17
  so I just recently stumbled across a song.
• 16:19
  It's actually not new,
• 16:20
  but I've never heard it before.
• 16:21
  Rae Lynn is the artist and the song is called Love Triangle,
• 16:26
  and it is absolutely one of the most
• 16:29
  breathtakingly incredible songs about a child's perspective
• 16:32
  of growing up in a divorced family.
• 16:35
  And I've been listening to that for the last week or so,
• 16:38
  and she basically,
• 16:40
  her and and this is like her autobiographical song basically.
• 16:44
  And so at 3 years old,
• 16:46
  her parents divorced and she wrote the song from the perspective of
• 16:50
  leaving mom to go be with dad for the timeshare with him and
• 16:53
  then leaving dad to go be with mom for the timeshare with her,
• 16:56
  and the chorus basically says,
• 16:57
  and some of us get stuck in a love triangle.
• 17:01
  And the premise is that if moms and dads are loving in a straight line,
• 17:06
  then everything follows the path.
• 17:08
  But then sometimes when things fracture and tatter and tear,
• 17:11
  now all of a sudden it's mom and me and dad,
• 17:14
  and it becomes a triangle.
• 17:16
  Really,
• 17:16
  really interesting premise of a song,
• 17:18
  but I've been thinking a lot about that in terms
• 17:20
  of the work that we do as child-centered play therapists
• 17:23
  and in terms of how that affects our parenting and,
• 17:26
  and what we need to be mindful of as we're navigating change.
• 17:30
  that are going to take place in families.
• 17:32
  And so
• 17:33
  I wanted to kind of get your thoughts on co-parenting
• 17:37
  because I know this is one of your specialties.
• 17:39
  So
• 17:40
  if you wouldn't mind,
• 17:41
  what are,
• 17:42
  what are the need to know for if you are in a situation where you are co-parenting?
• 17:49
  What are the ways that we do this well?
• 17:52
  What are the ways that we do this with purpose and intention?
• 17:55
  What are the ways that we effectively manage a co-parenting scenario?
• 18:00
  Oh
• 18:01
  wow,
• 18:01
  what a powerful question,
• 18:02
  Branna.
• 18:03
  OK.
• 18:04
  And so
• 18:05
  this one too has a bit of a deeper
• 18:08
  layer,
• 18:09
  because there are a couple of different things going on here.
• 18:12
  On an internal,
• 18:15
  individual
• 18:16
  level,
• 18:17
  when you as a parent,
• 18:19
  are going through this type of transition,
• 18:22
  Going through a separation,
• 18:24
  going through a divorce,
• 18:26
  you are going to have a lot of things happening inside of you,
• 18:30
  big emotions,
• 18:32
  confusing feelings,
• 18:34
  lots of dark emotions,
• 18:35
  and there is a ton.
• 18:38
  Of very valuable work for you to do during this period,
• 18:43
  so that you are effectively moving through all the different stages of this
• 18:47
  and ideally
• 18:49
  engaging in a very deep growth process
• 18:53
  that allows you to come out the other side of this
• 18:57
  stronger,
• 18:58
  more clear,
• 18:59
  more
• 18:59
  Connected with your values and better able to create
• 19:03
  the life that you want individually,
• 19:06
  the relationships that you want in the future,
• 19:08
  and of course,
• 19:10
  to be the kind of parent
• 19:12
  that you want to be.
• 19:13
  And so this is a process.
• 19:15
  So that
• 19:16
  is actually,
• 19:17
  if your goal is to be an effective co-parent,
• 19:21
  Step
• 19:21
  one
• 19:22
  is to begin doing that
• 19:25
  work
• 19:26
  because when you do that,
• 19:29
  you will work through all the feelings.
• 19:32
  You will come to a place of calm and clarity.
• 19:35
  Many people,
• 19:36
  and this is going to sound
• 19:37
  bananas,
• 19:38
  but I'm gonna say it out loud.
• 19:40
  I've talked to so many people about this.
• 19:42
  They will say,
• 19:44
  That
• 19:44
  was a crappy experience.
• 19:46
  I wish that hadn't happened,
• 19:48
  did not enjoy that,
• 19:50
  and
• 19:51
  looking back,
• 19:53
  There's this weird part of me that is so glad it did
• 19:57
  because it changed so many things for me.
• 19:59
  I would not be the person that I am today
• 20:02
  had I not had the opportunity to do that really important work.
• 20:05
  So when you're going through it,
• 20:07
  it's like impossible to believe.
• 20:09
  So just trust me on this.
• 20:11
  Brenna,
• 20:11
  you're great.
• 20:12
  You're like,
• 20:12
  this is a thing.
• 20:13
  It,
• 20:13
  I know that.
• 20:16
  But so the way that this relates to a co-parenting relationship is that.
• 20:22
  On a different level.
• 20:23
  So remember on the base level,
• 20:25
  you're doing your own stuff,
• 20:26
  but on this top level
• 20:28
  you also must
• 20:32
  Be committed
• 20:33
  to acting
• 20:35
  from your values
• 20:37
  and conducting yourself in a positive way that is
• 20:41
  going to create positive outcomes for your kids,
• 20:46
  no matter how you feel
• 20:48
  while you are going through the process.
• 20:50
  You go through it well,
• 20:52
  you're gonna Come out the other side and it's gonna
• 20:54
  feel easy,
• 20:54
  but in the meantime,
• 20:56
  you're gonna need to do some internal work on how do I manage myself in such a way
• 21:03
  that I am not making anything worse and that I
• 21:05
  am keeping my own side of the street clean,
• 21:07
  no matter how I feel.
• 21:09
  And that can be challenging to do.
• 21:11
  But if you want to have a positive
• 21:13
  co-parenting relationship,
• 21:15
  you need to stop being so focused
• 21:18
  on what your ex and now co-parent is doing
• 21:21
  or not doing and start really focusing on
• 21:24
  what are you doing
• 21:26
  to regulate yourself,
• 21:28
  to say the right thing,
• 21:29
  even if you want to say something hostile,
• 21:33
  right?
• 21:36
  Are you being respectful?
• 21:38
  Are you being supportive?
• 21:40
  Are you being an effective negotiator
• 21:43
  that is not
• 21:45
  confusing everything with all of the big feelings that,
• 21:48
  of course,
• 21:49
  are coming up.
• 21:49
  So it requires a lot of compartmentalization.
• 21:53
  In order to be able to do that,
• 21:55
  but that begins with you getting a lot of clarity around who you want to be
• 22:01
  through this and allowing that ideal
• 22:04
  to then guide your actions,
• 22:06
  and your feelings
• 22:08
  are,
• 22:09
  sorry to say this,
• 22:10
  irrelevant.
• 22:12
  Unless,
• 22:13
  of course,
• 22:14
  we want to index your feelings of love for your child,
• 22:17
  that
• 22:18
  will help you be the person that you need to be.
• 22:22
  Or your feeling of
• 22:24
  courage to do what needs to be done even when you to,
• 22:27
  or your feeling of discernment
• 22:29
  that this is not something that I should say or do right now,
• 22:32
  or your feeling of commitment where you say,
• 22:35
  no matter what,
• 22:36
  this is how I want to be.
• 22:37
  So yes,
• 22:38
  OK,
• 22:38
  so let's unpack this a little bit.
• 22:40
  So
• 22:41
  I,
• 22:42
  I often say,
• 22:43
  and I actually shared this in the the clinical podcast too,
• 22:46
  you know,
• 22:47
  one of our
• 22:48
  North Star
• 22:50
  mantras.
• 22:51
  What do I want my child at 25
• 22:54
  when they are out of college,
• 22:55
  they have their job,
• 22:56
  they might be married at that point,
• 22:58
  whatever,
• 22:58
  they're around their adult peers,
• 23:00
  and someone says,
• 23:02
  what was your mom like?
• 23:04
  What what do you remember about your dad?
• 23:06
  What,
• 23:06
  what stands out for you about the way that you were raised,
• 23:09
  you know,
• 23:09
  what,
• 23:09
  what,
• 23:10
  what did your parents do or not do?
• 23:11
  What,
• 23:11
  what do you remember?
• 23:13
  That should influence every moment.
• 23:15
  So similarly,
• 23:16
  whatever we're going through right now,
• 23:19
  it's a choice,
• 23:21
  and quote,
• 23:22
  your feelings don't matter,
• 23:23
  meaning
• 23:24
  you choose
• 23:26
  something because it helps you become a better version of yourself,
• 23:30
  not because you feel like doing something else.
• 23:34
  Look,
• 23:34
  any hard thing.
• 23:36
  We have to override feelings because our feelings are like,
• 23:39
  oh,
• 23:39
  don't do that,
• 23:39
  that's gonna be awful.
• 23:41
  Oh,
• 23:41
  don't do that.
• 23:42
  That's gonna be so exhausting.
• 23:43
  Oh gosh,
• 23:43
  that's gonna be,
• 23:44
  we,
• 23:44
  we,
• 23:45
  we can talk ourselves out of lots of things
• 23:47
  because our feelings say we don't want to do it.
• 23:49
  We'll avoid,
• 23:50
  we'll distract,
• 23:51
  we'll do all kinds of things.
• 23:52
  That's all maladaptive coping to avoid doing something that's not gonna feel good,
• 23:58
  but
• 23:58
  doing hard things requires hard work.
• 24:01
  So raising a child,
• 24:03
  being an effective parent,
• 24:05
  becoming the best version of ourselves that we can be.
• 24:08
  We talk about self-actualizing all the time,
• 24:10
  right?
• 24:11
  Becoming the best version of yourself.
• 24:13
  There is no way for us to do that unless we say
• 24:16
  in this moment,
• 24:17
  I choose.
• 24:19
  To do
• 24:20
  what's going to get me more closely aligned
• 24:23
  with who I want to be.
• 24:24
  And one of the things we've been talking about also lately is congruence.
• 24:28
  So when our ideal self and our actual self is so far apart.
• 24:33
  There's no way to bridge the gap anymore,
• 24:36
  and
• 24:37
  we have all kinds of dysfunction.
• 24:39
  The closer our actual self becomes to the ideal,
• 24:44
  the more we feel inspired and encouraged to keep self-actualizing.
• 24:48
  So think about this,
• 24:49
  we always have an opportunity in any moment when we're parenting.
• 24:53
  To
• 24:54
  do something that's self-enhancing,
• 24:56
  to do something that's closely aligned with our ideal,
• 24:59
  to do something that's going to
• 25:01
  preserve the relationship with our child.
• 25:03
  To do something that shows courage and
• 25:06
  thought and intention rather than reactivity.
• 25:09
  There's all of these moments that we have.
• 25:10
  We have these choices that we make,
• 25:12
  and every choice that we make one at a time.
• 25:16
  We're not talking big picture here,
• 25:18
  big steps,
• 25:18
  climbing the mountain,
• 25:19
  we're saying this moment.
• 25:22
  I have a choice
• 25:23
  and I choose to do the thing that's going to get me closer to who I want to be
• 25:28
  and what I want to preserve in my relationship with my child.
• 25:31
  You do it once,
• 25:32
  it's easier to do it the second time.
• 25:34
  You do it 2 times,
• 25:35
  it's easier to do it the third time.
• 25:36
  And then before you know it,
• 25:38
  your ideal and your actual are actually pretty closely aligned,
• 25:41
  which means you're very congruent.
• 25:43
  And now all of a sudden you are the parent and you
• 25:45
  are the person that you've been working so hard to become.
• 25:50
  There's so much beauty in that simple act of choosing right now.
• 25:55
  What do I need to do in this moment?
• 25:59
  Oh,
• 25:59
  Brenna,
• 26:00
  that's beautiful,
• 26:00
  and,
• 26:00
  and some would say
• 26:02
  that that choice is the very definition
• 26:05
  of love.
• 26:08
  Yes,
• 26:08
  love is a verb,
• 26:09
  right?
• 26:11
  So,
• 26:11
  so we choose,
• 26:12
  and it's action.
• 26:14
  That's very much true.
• 26:16
  And,
• 26:17
  and
• 26:17
  to just underscore
• 26:20
  the importance of what you're saying
• 26:22
  is that
• 26:24
  what you're
• 26:25
  advocating,
• 26:26
  Brenna,
• 26:26
  is to get super clear around what those actions are,
• 26:31
  like,
• 26:31
  what,
• 26:32
  what is,
• 26:33
  what am I actually doing when I'm being in in alignment with my ideal self?
• 26:39
  Because
• 26:40
  if you're not super clear and like have a written list of things to do.
• 26:45
  Particularly when you are going through a,
• 26:48
  a breakup or a divorce,
• 26:52
  you have such an emotional
• 26:54
  hurricane
• 26:56
  going on inside of you
• 26:58
  that you actually cannot trust
• 27:01
  the way that you think or the way that you feel for a period of time.
• 27:07
  And so to have that clarity around,
• 27:09
  this is what I need to do right now.
• 27:12
  Because of the
• 27:13
  biological things that are actually happening inside of you in these moments,
• 27:19
  that's gonna be a lifeline,
• 27:21
  cause if you don't have that clarity and you start acting on how
• 27:24
  you think or how you feel in the moment during this very unique
• 27:28
  Transition,
• 27:32
  not just for yourself or your co-parenting relationship,
• 27:35
  but long term
• 27:36
  for your kid.
• 27:38
  Exactly,
• 27:39
  and there's,
• 27:41
  you know,
• 27:42
  one of the things we talk about a lot is
• 27:44
  the concept that
• 27:46
  we
• 27:47
  have
• 27:48
  moments all throughout the day
• 27:50
  where we can ask ourselves
• 27:52
  what will most preserve the relationship in this moment
• 27:56
  and or what will do the least harm.
• 27:59
  Right.
• 28:00
  So with those two as your litmus test,
• 28:02
  if you will.
• 28:04
  If I'm about to yell,
• 28:05
  if I'm about to be hostile,
• 28:07
  if I'm about to be
• 28:08
  rude,
• 28:09
  if I'm about to
• 28:11
  say something hurtful,
• 28:12
  whatever,
• 28:13
  and this is to children,
• 28:15
  to spouses,
• 28:16
  to co-parents,
• 28:16
  whatever,
• 28:16
  it doesn't matter the scenario.
• 28:18
  Those are moment by moment.
• 28:21
  Opportunities to say what do I need to do right now
• 28:25
  to most preserve the relationship,
• 28:26
  do the least harm.
• 28:28
  Sometimes that's
• 28:29
  do the least harm for ourselves too.
• 28:31
  It's preserve the relationship with ourselves because
• 28:33
  when our ideal versus actual selves as parents
• 28:36
  get further and further apart,
• 28:37
  we start to blame ourselves and we start to feel guilty
• 28:41
  and we start to have shame and we start to regret things and now all of a sudden that's
• 28:46
  a whole other level of spiral to add on top of the other spirals that are going on.
• 28:50
  And so really meaningful opportunities
• 28:54
  to pause and say,
• 28:55
  OK,
• 28:56
  I'm going to be intentional in this moment and I'm going to choose
• 29:00
  to say and do the things that are most closely aligned with who I want to be,
• 29:04
  and that's a very,
• 29:06
  very meaningful
• 29:07
  opportunity
• 29:08
  to become the better version of yourself in those little glimpses.
• 29:14
  OK,
• 29:14
  so
• 29:15
  let's take this in a little bit of a different direction.
• 29:18
  So we've been talking about divorce,
• 29:19
  separation,
• 29:20
  co-parenting.
• 29:21
  What are your thoughts,
• 29:22
  and I'm sure there's so much crossover and and overlap here.
• 29:25
  So,
• 29:26
  What are your thoughts on
• 29:28
  the ways in which
• 29:30
  our difficulties may be unrelated to
• 29:34
  marital relationships?
• 29:35
  So what if we lost our job?
• 29:38
  What if we
• 29:40
  are grieving the loss of a family member?
• 29:43
  What if we are
• 29:45
  in an anxious place in our lives,
• 29:47
  we're just overwhelmed with anxiety,
• 29:49
  if we are struggling
• 29:51
  and we are a parent?
• 29:53
  What does that look like?
• 29:54
  What are the things that we need to be mindful of,
• 29:57
  the influence on our kids,
• 29:59
  the ways that we most effectively handle that,
• 30:02
  because it's not always about,
• 30:03
  you know,
• 30:04
  we're we're losing a relationship per se.
• 30:07
  We have our own stuff that we deal with and,
• 30:09
  and really kind of where I'd like to focus a little bit is
• 30:13
  we often think about putting ourselves aside
• 30:16
  so that we can
• 30:17
  do what's right by our children.
• 30:19
  But we give out of the overflow,
• 30:22
  and we have to be mindful that when we are struggling,
• 30:26
  there's a ripple,
• 30:28
  but often our kids are struggling too.
• 30:31
  So how,
• 30:31
  how do we have coexisting struggles
• 30:34
  and what does that look like?
• 30:35
  I know there's a lot of layers there,
• 30:37
  so you go in whatever direction,
• 30:38
  but we have kids that are grieving or
• 30:40
  angry or anxious or struggling in some capacities,
• 30:44
  and then sometimes we are in those same situations as well.
• 30:47
  And there's just,
• 30:48
  there's a lot of
• 30:50
  influence and integration
• 30:52
  of us as parents with us as children.
• 30:55
  What are your thoughts on that?
• 30:56
  Oh,
• 30:57
  such a good question.
• 31:04
  perspective that these are all such valuable opportunities.
• 31:09
  I mean,
• 31:10
  my
• 31:11
  organizing belief system,
• 31:13
  the reason why my practice is called growing.
• 31:16
  Self is because I believe with all of my heart and soul
• 31:20
  that we
• 31:22
  evolve as people to become
• 31:25
  more mature,
• 31:27
  more loving,
• 31:28
  stronger,
• 31:29
  more compassionate,
• 31:30
  more confident,
• 31:32
  not
• 31:33
  In spite of our struggles,
• 31:35
  but actually because of them.
• 31:38
  It is when we go through challenging life experiences
• 31:44
  that we have the opportunity to develop ourselves,
• 31:47
  and that kind of growth doesn't happen otherwise.
• 31:49
  And so In
• 31:50
  all of these situations,
• 31:52
  I think that we as parents have such a powerful opportunity
• 31:57
  to model that for our children and say,
• 32:01
  age appropriate,
• 32:02
  not super scary things,
• 32:04
  but for example,
• 32:06
  sweetie,
• 32:07
  a thing happened.
• 32:08
  I was laid off from my job,
• 32:10
  and it was surprising.
• 32:16
  I want you to know that we are going to be OK.
• 32:20
  But
• 32:20
  here's what you might expect from me from the next few weeks.
• 32:24
  I'm going to be around the house a lot more,
• 32:26
  and I'm also going to be working really hard.
• 32:31
  To maybe pivot my career.
• 32:33
  There are a lot of things I don't love about that job anyway.
• 32:36
  And so
• 32:37
  to to just kind of talk through what you're doing for your kid to say,
• 32:42
  oh,
• 32:44
  that's how it's done.
• 32:45
  And with anything,
• 32:47
  with anxiety,
• 32:48
  depression,
• 32:49
  grief,
• 32:49
  to say,
• 32:50
  I am going through some stuff right now.
• 32:53
  I'm going through an internal process.
• 32:56
  My mind is playing some tricks on me,
• 32:58
  but here is what you'll see me do in response to that.
• 33:03
  I am going to be improving my diet.
• 33:06
  I'm going to be going on regular walks because exercise is really good for you.
• 33:11
  I am going to start
• 33:13
  working on this with a therapist.
• 33:15
  I'm going to be reading some books.
• 33:17
  Oh,
• 33:18
  here is this really interesting thing that
• 33:19
  I learned about anxiety management techniques,
• 33:23
  sharing some of those with your kids.
• 33:25
  So we're,
• 33:26
  we are demystifying the process of what actually happens when we develop our.
• 33:33
  And sharing this with our children so that they learn
• 33:37
  how it is done so that they have a roadmap
• 33:40
  for not if,
• 33:42
  but
• 33:43
  when
• 33:44
  they experience adversity
• 33:46
  in their own lives.
• 33:48
  They will have witnessed you as a guide
• 33:51
  for how to use this moment as an inspiring challenge
• 33:56
  to develop yourself.
• 33:58
  Maybe go in a different direction,
• 33:59
  expand in some way,
• 34:01
  and then they will think,
• 34:02
  Oh,
• 34:03
  I can do this too,
• 34:04
  as opposed to
• 34:06
  collapsing into
• 34:08
  depression,
• 34:09
  substance abuse,
• 34:10
  and feeling this helplessness,
• 34:11
  hopelessness,
• 34:12
  like,
• 34:12
  oh,
• 34:13
  this is who I am,
• 34:15
  I guess,
• 34:16
  and developing an identity around illness or misfortune.
• 34:20
  That isn't true for any of us,
• 34:22
  but they need you to guide the way.
• 34:25
  That would be my hope.
• 34:27
  My hope too.
• 34:29
  And
• 34:30
  so I'd like to actually add another layer
• 34:32
  because I 100% agree with everything you said,
• 34:35
  but here's from the child development side of this where
• 34:38
  I think I want to focus a little bit too.
• 34:40
  So not only do we provide
• 34:43
  a guide,
• 34:43
  a roadmap,
• 34:44
  an example of what it looks like to
• 34:47
  face a challenge,
• 34:48
  face a struggle,
• 34:49
  look at adversity,
• 34:50
  and say,
• 34:51
  OK,
• 34:51
  I'm resilient,
• 34:52
  I'm capable,
• 34:53
  I can handle this.
• 34:54
  I can problem solve.
• 34:55
  All of that is so powerful because we know that our kids are watching,
• 34:59
  we know that they're observing,
• 35:00
  and we,
• 35:01
  we know that they're learning
• 35:02
  from every interaction.
• 35:05
  I also know
• 35:06
  that kids will fill in the gaps
• 35:09
  if they don't have enough information.
• 35:12
  So what parents will often do with good intentions,
• 35:16
  this is not critical,
• 35:17
  it's just factual.
• 35:18
  Parents will often say,
• 35:19
  oh,
• 35:20
  I don't want,
• 35:20
  I don't want to worry my child.
• 35:21
  I'm not going to say anything.
• 35:23
  Oh,
• 35:23
  they don't need to know that so and so died.
• 35:24
  I'm not going to tell them that.
• 35:25
  They'll that'll just make them upset.
• 35:27
  Oh,
• 35:28
  that's just,
• 35:28
  that's too much for them.
• 35:29
  I just want them to be a kid.
• 35:32
  And with good intentions,
• 35:34
  what we do is we create an environment
• 35:36
  where the child's very perceptive,
• 35:38
  very aware,
• 35:39
  very observant,
• 35:40
  and they're like,
• 35:42
  OK,
• 35:45
  so in the,
• 35:45
  like,
• 35:46
  OK,
• 35:46
  Mom's crying a lot.
• 35:54
  I don't,
• 35:54
  I,
• 35:54
  what in the world is happening right now,
• 35:56
  and guess what?
• 35:57
  With no answers,
• 35:58
  with no information,
• 36:00
  they start filling in the gaps,
• 36:02
  and when they fill in gaps,
• 36:04
  it's with inaccurate information
• 36:06
  because they're guessing and they're grasping at straws.
• 36:09
  So now all of a sudden we have kids that are trying to
• 36:12
  cognitively process something and they don't have the capacity to do so.
• 36:17
  So we're forcing them into their brains,
• 36:19
  which they don't want to live there anyway,
• 36:20
  they want to stay in their hearts where they belong,
• 36:22
  but their brains are trying to sort all of this out,
• 36:24
  and inevitably
• 36:26
  it causes dysfunction.
• 36:28
  Because A,
• 36:29
  they developmentally shouldn't be trying to figure it out cognitively,
• 36:32
  B,
• 36:32
  they're assuming things,
• 36:33
  they're hypothesizing,
• 36:35
  they're making all of these presumptions,
• 36:37
  and none of them are true,
• 36:38
  and it's leading them down inaccurate paths.
• 36:41
  And then as a related aside,
• 36:44
  Kids are extremely resilient
• 36:46
  and kids can handle anything
• 36:48
  if they're prepared.
• 36:50
  So the most helpful thing we can do is to prepare them
• 36:54
  with age appropriate truth.
• 36:57
  Because if we just tell them,
• 36:59
  hey,
• 37:00
  I'm not going to be leaving for work because I don't actually work there anymore.
• 37:03
  I'm going to find a new job soon,
• 37:05
  but I just wanted you to know I'm going to be home because
• 37:09
  I don't,
• 37:09
  I'm not,
• 37:09
  I don't have to go to the office anymore.
• 37:11
  Now
• 37:12
  they're prepared.
• 37:14
  There's no shock,
• 37:15
  there's nothing unexpected.
• 37:16
  There's nothing that's gonna make them go,
• 37:18
  whoa,
• 37:18
  what is going on here?
• 37:20
  Age appropriate truth prevents kids
• 37:23
  from ending up in a cognitive spiral where they are overwhelmed
• 37:27
  because they can't make sense of things without enough information.
• 37:31
  So I think it's a both and.
• 37:32
  I think we not only serve as guide rails for them and we demonstrate what it looks like
• 37:37
  to be resilient and courageous and all those things,
• 37:39
  but it also saves our kids
• 37:42
  from unnecessarily being in a place
• 37:44
  where they're trying to sort something out that
• 37:46
  they have no business trying to sort out.
• 37:49
  Yes.
• 37:51
  Yeah,
• 37:51
  absolutely.
• 37:52
  OK,
• 37:53
  so as we get ready to wrap up,
• 37:56
  thank you so much for everything that you've been sharing.
• 37:58
  I would love to know in all of your work with families,
• 38:01
  all of your work with parents,
• 38:03
  do you have 1, 2, 3?
• 38:05
  I don't know what your number is going to be,
• 38:07
  but
• 38:07
  what are your
• 38:09
  just kind of
• 38:10
  golden nuggets of wisdom,
• 38:11
  your little pearls.
• 38:13
  That you think would be really helpful for
• 38:15
  the parents who actively listen to this podcast.
• 38:18
  They are intentional.
• 38:20
  They're purposeful.
• 38:21
  They are actively working on their parenting
• 38:25
  and their relationship with their kids.
• 38:26
  These are committed parents
• 38:29
  who really are trying to do the best that they can for their kids.
• 38:32
  What are some encouragements or some thoughts or some final takeaways for them that
• 38:37
  will just kind of give them something to mull over?
• 38:40
  Yeah,
• 38:40
  it's so beautiful.
• 38:42
  And I love that that spirit and just the,
• 38:45
  the love that goes into that,
• 38:47
  just this dedication
• 38:49
  of
• 38:50
  what do I need?
• 38:51
  I love this child so much.
• 38:53
  So they're here with you all the time,
• 38:55
  right,
• 38:56
  like,
• 38:56
  what do I need to do in order to be the very best parent that I can be
• 39:01
  and really just
• 39:02
  prizing their child's well-being
• 39:05
  over anything else.
• 39:06
  And that is so beautiful.
• 39:09
  And
• 39:10
  I think that
• 39:12
  sometimes what I have seen
• 39:15
  parents do is separate
• 39:18
  their
• 39:18
  parenting role and who they are as parents,
• 39:27
  to not just the detriment of themselves,
• 39:30
  but sometimes,
• 39:31
  unfortunately.
• 39:32
  downstream to their kids.
• 39:34
  So if parents
• 39:36
  are giving so much to their kids and
• 39:39
  neglecting
• 39:41
  their own internal landscape,
• 39:43
  their relationship with themselves,
• 39:46
  their
• 39:47
  health,
• 39:48
  their nutrition,
• 39:49
  the way that they are caring for themselves physically.
• 39:52
  But even their own sense of
• 39:55
  joy,
• 39:56
  meaning,
• 39:56
  purpose outside of their parenting relationship,
• 40:00
  their vocation,
• 40:01
  their friends,
• 40:02
  like there are so many different,
• 40:08
  And of course,
• 40:09
  kids are going to come before any of that.
• 40:11
  But,
• 40:11
  but our,
• 40:12
  our marriages,
• 40:13
  our spirituality,
• 40:15
  so many things,
• 40:16
  and that.
• 40:18
  Even though
• 40:19
  there's so much on us as parents,
• 40:22
  we have to be thinking about all of these dimensions of self,
• 40:27
  because
• 40:28
  if you start neglecting this and
• 40:32
  wrap your whole identity up into this one little corner,
• 40:37
  which is that as a parent,
• 40:39
  It feels like love.
• 40:41
  It feels like putting your kids first,
• 40:43
  but it can actually start to do weird things in that relationship because then
• 40:49
  you start,
• 40:57
  which can sometimes turn into how your kid is
• 40:59
  behaving or not behaving as a reflection on you.
• 41:03
  And if that's the only thing that you have going on in your life,
• 41:06
  it is going to put Weird pressure on your kids and make you a less effective parent.
• 41:14
  So that being a great parent also means being a whole
• 41:19
  person,
• 41:20
  and that when you are taking care of yourself,
• 41:23
  you are also taking care of your child.
• 41:26
  Yeah,
• 41:28
  gosh,
• 41:28
  so powerful.
• 41:29
  So,
• 41:30
  well,
• 41:30
  one of our phrases is you can't give away that which you don't possess.
• 41:35
  So how can we be patient with our children if we're not patient with ourselves?
• 41:39
  How can we be forgiving of our children if we're not forgiving of ourselves?
• 41:42
  How can we extend grace to our kids if we're not gracious to ourselves?
• 41:46
  And I think that that's also
• 41:49
  Reflected in
• 41:50
  where are we finding our identity.
• 41:53
  Our identity has to be multifaceted,
• 41:56
  right?
• 41:56
  I have hobbies,
• 41:57
  I have friends,
• 41:58
  I have family members,
• 41:59
  I have interests.
• 42:00
  I,
• 42:00
  this fills my cup.
• 42:01
  This,
• 42:02
  this satisfies me.
• 42:03
  This brings me passion.
• 42:04
  There's all of these components,
• 42:06
  and if it's all unidirectional,
• 42:09
  all of a sudden now,
• 42:10
  you know,
• 42:11
  one single myopic thing is usually never healthy,
• 42:14
  right?
• 42:15
  So there,
• 42:16
  there needs to be breadth and depth and All kinds of things for,
• 42:19
  for us to be really well rounded.
• 42:21
  And that's so true for us as parents because we tend to
• 42:25
  self-sacrifice to our own detriment,
• 42:28
  and inevitably it ends up being detrimental to our kids and our relationship
• 42:33
  because a kid should never feel the pressure
• 42:35
  of being your source of worth.
• 42:38
  A kid should never feel the pressure of,
• 42:40
  of having to perform so that you feel better.
• 42:44
  there's so much nuance there that now all of a sudden,
• 42:47
  I don't have a sense of who I am independent of my relationship with this child.
• 42:52
  And that's why we constantly say it's about the relationship.
• 42:56
  And for the relationship to be healthy,
• 42:59
  you have to have two healthy individuals.
• 43:01
  Yes,
• 43:01
  you cannot have a healthy relationship with an unhealthy person.
• 43:06
  And so that means you,
• 43:09
  and I just love what you are saying.
• 43:12
  About the dynamic that can exist,
• 43:15
  and,
• 43:15
  and not just say all parents have
• 43:17
  beautiful,
• 43:19
  important moments of self-sacrifice,
• 43:22
  but when your entire life is organized around that,
• 43:26
  you're not doing anybody any favors.
• 43:28
  Right,
• 43:29
  yeah,
• 43:31
  wow,
• 43:31
  well,
• 43:31
  Lisa,
• 43:32
  thank you so much.
• 43:33
  I mean,
• 43:33
  this was,
• 43:34
  it was just all kinds of food for thought,
• 43:36
  and I love that.
• 43:37
  So if my parents and listeners would like to connect with you,
• 43:41
  if,
• 43:41
  if they can have some interaction with you,
• 43:43
  what do they need to do?
• 43:45
  I wonder I have a lot of resources
• 43:47
  for people who are interested in in developing themselves
• 43:51
  and or improving their relationships,
• 43:54
  or navigating these difficult relational transitions
• 43:58
  related to a breakup or divorce.
• 44:00
  So my practice is growing self counseling and coaching,
• 44:04
  growingself.com,
• 44:05
  and I'm also the host of the Love,
• 44:07
  Happiness and Success
• 44:08
  Podcast,
• 44:09
  which you could go and find.
• 44:12
  you'll find that I've actually organized,
• 44:18
  So,
• 44:18
  for example,
• 44:19
  if you're interested on improving the communication in your relationship,
• 44:23
  you can come to my blog and podcast,
• 44:25
  and there's a collection just for that with a bunch of articles that
• 44:29
  myself and other marriage and family therapists on my team have written,
• 44:37
  And similarly for divorce and breakup recovery,
• 44:43
  emotional well-being.
• 44:45
  So
• 44:45
  there's a lot there for you.
• 44:47
  And so you can come,
• 44:48
  browse around,
• 44:49
  take what you need.
• 44:50
  I have different free assessments that you could play around with.
• 44:54
  And so just depending on your needs.
• 44:56
  Because even just talking with you,
• 44:58
  Brenna,
• 44:59
  I mean,
• 44:59
  being a parent
• 45:00
  is,
• 45:01
  is one thing,
• 45:02
  but,
• 45:02
  you know,
• 45:02
  standing behind that
• 45:04
  are adults
• 45:06
  who may have different types of needs.
• 45:09
  Maybe it is building a stronger,
• 45:11
  more satisfying career that allows them to be a more present
• 45:15
  parent.
• 45:16
  That's a different problem to solve than somebody who's,
• 45:20
  you know,
• 45:20
  trying to figure out if they want to maintain a marriage or,
• 45:23
  or start heading down a path.
• 45:25
  So,
• 45:25
  so I don't want to define that for you,
• 45:27
  but if you come to my website,
• 45:29
  you will find free resources speaking to all of those life experiences and,
• 45:32
  and hopefully some
• 45:34
  direction and guidance for
• 45:36
  next steps.
• 45:37
  Well,
• 45:38
  gosh,
• 45:38
  that's what we're always looking for,
• 45:40
  right?
• 45:40
  We,
• 45:41
  we seek information so that we feel that we have direction and guidance to
• 45:45
  make the decisions and get us closer to who we want to be.
• 45:48
  So
• 45:49
  I'm really excited for all of you,
• 45:51
  my listeners to be able to check out her website,
• 45:53
  and that will be posted in the show notes for you,
• 45:55
  so you'll have access to all of that.
• 45:57
  Lisa,
• 45:57
  thank you so much for being here.
• 45:59
  It was wonderful to spend time with you and I know that my
• 46:02
  audience is just really going to benefit from everything that you shared.
• 46:05
  Brenna,
• 46:05
  it's always such a pleasure.
• 46:07
  Thank you again.
• 46:08
  All right,
• 46:09
  all right,
• 46:09
  y'all,
• 46:09
  it was good to talk to you.
• 46:10
  We'll see you again next time.
• 46:11
  Bye.
• 46:13
  Thank you for listening to
• 46:14
  the Play Therapy Parenting Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks.
• 46:18
  For more episodes and just subscribe to our newsletter,
• 46:21
  please go to www.playtherapyparenting.com.