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South Africa Shocked By 11-Man Wallabies... What Went Wrong? · Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield

0:00
Well done to Australia.
0:01
It's the first time in a long time that Boks lost the aerial battle as well.
0:05
But do you think it's arrogance changing 10 players, Victor?
0:09
Probably, especially the front row.
0:12
It wasn't our second front row, it was our third front row.
0:15
Watching Australia go down to 11 men like a soccer team, for me, is just ridiculous.
0:21
We are turning off our fans.
0:22
We played it friendly against Australia.
0:24
Australia.
0:25
We went out, we gave it to them.
0:27
So we've done our bit for World Rugby now.
0:30
I'm not listening to any more of this.
0:31
I'm leaving.
0:37
Right, welcome to Rugby Rivals brought to you by Ram Hand to Hand Couriers.
0:42
And probably the Australian on this week because they're the best team in the world.
0:48
Yeah.
0:50
Victor, I'm incredibly happy.
0:51
You know why I'm happy?
0:52
Why?
0:53
You know why I'm happy?
0:55
telling you because i think it's fantastic that the three southern hemisphere sides are actually like back you know so so for me it just makes next week so damn exciting because the australians actually played well for 60 minutes and they look like they're
1:16
playing to the best of their ability.
1:18
So that makes the Bledisloe Cup actually so much more exciting.
1:22
And I just think when our three hemispheres are in good shape, and I think it's yet to be proven from Australia because they need to back it up, but they've beaten Argentina.
1:32
They're on a bit of a roll at the moment.
1:33
So I think one of their big tests was against you guys, which they did pretty well.
1:41
So, yeah, I'm just happy for the Southern Hemisphere, mate.
1:44
Yeah, I must say, if you think back about last year, about the rugby championship, it was probably one of the best we've ever seen.
1:54
All the games were close, it was competitive and that's what we want to see.
2:00
Yeah, not a good day for South Africa.
2:01
It was pretty tough.
2:03
I had to do a talk at a function directly after the game and that's never easy after Bokka when they lose.
2:13
I just showed again.
2:15
I think
2:16
The intensity, the focus was so big on the greatest rival tour.
2:20
And I think to pick yourself up after four weeks like that, it's really difficult.
2:26
And also, I mean, we've been talking about the depth that we've got in South Africa, but I think it's just showing there's definitely a little gap between that very experienced team that's been through so many things and the new kids coming through.
2:43
So yeah, well done to Australia.
2:47
I mean, they came at the box in that first half.
2:51
They dominated a lot of things.
2:52
The first time in a long time the box lost the aerial battle as well.
2:57
So, yeah, well done to them.
2:59
And it's nice.
3:00
I'm looking forward to the Deadest Low Cup now.
3:03
It needs to be up there.
3:04
It needs to be competitive.
3:06
So, and yeah, let's hope the All Blacks will beat the Aussies in that first game of the World Cup.
3:12
Then we don't have to play them in a quarterfinal.
3:15
Do you think it's, I'll say a word that can be construed two different ways, but do you think it's arrogance changing 10 players, Victor?
3:27
Do you think it's something that you need to be aware of?
3:30
And I'm saying positive arrogance because if you think you've got the depth of the squad, but you're ending up on the bad side of results by changing too many?
3:41
Yeah, I don't think so.
3:42
I think it's...
3:44
Rossi picks his moment.
3:46
Where is the focus?
3:48
And I think the focus was all on the greatest rivalry.
3:51
I mean, that's what we wanted to win this year.
3:55
And he got that right and he played the same teams for four weeks.
3:59
Something we haven't seen for a long time.
4:02
He's always had, I believe, any squad.
4:05
I just think if you look at certain positions, probably especially the front row, it wasn't our second front row, it was our third front row.
4:15
And a few other positions as well, at Scrumhoff as well, I think it's our fourth choice, Scrumhoff.
4:19
But it's just guys that haven't had a chance to show what they can do.
4:22
And I think Rossi wanted to test him under pressure to see what they can do and where they stand in the rankings.
4:28
And yeah, unfortunately, there's a few guys that I think that stood up and there's a few guys that didn't come through.
4:34
So it's never easy.
4:37
But at some stage, if you plan for a World Cup, I think the next thing is to win the World Cup.
4:41
So we won the greatest rivalry.
4:43
Now we want to go for that three in a row.
4:46
And you have to give those guys a chance.
4:49
So, yeah.
4:51
So you've done it last year.
4:52
It worked.
4:53
This year it didn't work for us.
4:55
You don't think playing your fourth front row and your fourth level players is not the right thing to do?
5:03
You think it's still the right thing to do?
5:06
I'm not sure.
5:06
Yeah.
5:08
It's not the fourth.
5:09
I think the front row is probably the third one.
5:11
It's not the guys that could be on the bench.
5:14
But it's young kids with a lot of talent that probably after the World Cup, they need to step up and...
5:21
take over those positions.
5:23
So, I mean, they need to be tested and the only way they will get better is to play in test matches.
5:28
So, Russia normally has got that confidence.
5:32
I also think it wasn't just the changes.
5:37
I think it would have been very hard if we picked our team.
5:40
Same guys also to mentally be there.
5:42
But I could just see in the whole week's buildup.
5:45
I've seen a few things with the coaches where they were.
5:48
Just like mentally, it wasn't the same.
5:51
The guys just dropped off a little bit.
5:53
They took that breath.
5:54
And you know in international rugby, especially now that Australia is getting back, if you're 5% off your game mentally, then it's very difficult to win a game.
6:05
I mean, what I find interesting, just, you know, watching the reaction to the loss, is no one ever questions Russi in South Africa?
6:14
Like, it's always like, oh, look, you know, we may have lost, but Russi's got a plan.
6:18
I mean, he's obviously one of the greatest coaches of all time and, you know, won two World Cups.
6:24
So he gets it right more than he gets it wrong.
6:26
But does anyone ever criticise him?
6:30
Yeah.
6:31
It's difficult to criticize him.
6:33
I mean, what he's done with the team, what he's done for the country.
6:37
I mean, if we lose another two or three, then the people will start getting out the swords.
6:43
But, I mean, we've had our losses one year, but we haven't had a two in a row.
6:49
for a very long time.
6:50
So, and again, I mean, yes, it's a test match, but it's a friendly test match.
6:56
Like I say, you don't really get friendly test matches, but I mean, it's not something that, I mean, most of South Africans almost didn't know we're playing with straight up.
7:04
They thought it's only at the end of year we're playing again.
7:07
So.
7:09
I think everyone believes in him.
7:11
At the function I was, I went up and I thought it's going to be very difficult.
7:16
And as I walked up, they started playing Rahasi and everyone was standing up and cheering after a loss.
7:21
So I couldn't believe it.
7:23
So I think people believe in what he's doing.
7:26
I think he's... And I mean, he showed it.
7:28
I mean, we've lost in World Cup pool matches.
7:32
We lost.
7:33
But when it's important to win games, he gets the guys together.
7:38
Ricardo, I think, you know, just from a neutral, well, not so much neutral, but...
7:44
Very neutral.
7:45
No, I think he's earned the right, and I think that...
7:49
I think he's earned the right to do this stuff.
7:50
Do I agree with some of the things he does?
7:52
No.
7:54
Like I asked that question before, is he going too far?
7:59
But the thing about Russie is he pushes the boundaries all the time, and sometimes those boundaries backfire in him.
8:05
I think he pushed the boundaries this week.
8:07
I mean, if you're an Australian and the Australians are a proud nation,
8:13
our brothers across the Tasman, and Russie changes 10 players, they would see that as a personal insult.
8:21
They're competitors, they like to win.
8:23
So by doing some of the stuff, he's also giving the opposition a hell of a motivation.
8:29
But I just think he's at the right, and I think the courage that he shows to do that stuff I think is encouraged.
8:37
I wish some of the other parts of our game
8:40
especially World Rugby had the courage because watching Australia go down to four 11 men like a soccer team for me is just ridiculous you know we are turning off our fans like people are just like if you live in Australia and if you live in New Zealand so Victor this is for our New Zealand and Australia audience we've just had the most amazing weekend of sport man like it's been unbelievable the rugby league's been unbelievably some be some tragedy with
9:09
Cricket was fantastic to say.
9:13
Yeah.
9:13
The cricket was fantastic.
9:15
Yeah.
9:15
And Australian rules and the Wallabies winning was fantastic.
9:21
But people are just walking away going, what the hell has our game come to?
9:25
You know?
9:26
Like the penalty try, the halfback jumps on the ball.
9:30
You know, like a penalty try, isn't that enough in our game?
9:34
Riccardo, what were you saying to me before that I thought was a valid?
9:38
I think two things.
9:39
One is...
9:41
Victor just got away with saying there's such a thing as a friendly test match.
9:46
You can't even have a friendly glass of beer.
9:49
Or you can't have a friendly conversation.
9:51
It's competitive and you have to win.
9:54
But wearing socks is a competition to you, Victor.
9:58
You know, but I think the problem...
10:02
Our game treats players like cheats that they want to catch out.
10:07
The world rugby or the referees or whoever it is sort of goes, look, our players fundamentally cheat at the game and our job is to catch them.
10:16
And that's the way we rule the game.
10:18
And when you get to a game where from 15 players you're down to 11, and to be honest, probably all but one was a justifiable red card, a yellow card under the rules.
10:31
You know, the problem is not the players.
10:33
The problem is the game because no other sport has that many players being sent from the field for those sort of infractions.
10:42
I do not believe, Ricardo, I do not – sorry, Victor.
10:45
I do not believe now that the current players, you know, since Victor's retired, are actually trying to hurt people.
10:54
I'm only joking.
10:55
They're not.
10:55
You know, yeah.
10:57
You and your bloody locking partner.
10:59
But I honestly believe that a lot of these players, they don't do that and it's fantastic.
11:04
But, like, our game is a dynamic game.
11:07
So we've gone from, and it's a thing that we won't face, you know.
11:13
Our people are worried about, you know,
11:15
the head knocks, and I get that, but the technology's doing its best.
11:18
We're doing our best for our young kids.
11:20
We're doing our best for our whole lot of stuff.
11:22
You cannot punish the top end of the game when these players are not doing it on purpose.
11:27
So, and I'm sick of people saying to me, oh, JK, you talk about rugby league.
11:31
But rugby league is increasing their television rights, increasing their crowd, increasing their fan base.
11:36
They're getting the walk-ins away from rugby because actually they put people on report.
11:41
you know, and they deal with it on Monday.
11:43
Guys have still possibly missed the finals and that.
11:46
So we've got to start punishing our fans who want to watch the game and punishing the players for something that is absolutely unavoidable.
11:54
Because when you see someone drop down and then, like, what are we doing?
11:58
What are we doing?
11:59
Can we just move a bit faster world rugby?
12:02
The chairman who's Australian, and that's happened to your team on the weekend.
12:05
Can you just do something and intervene?
12:07
and actually say, we're going to change this as quick as possible, and try putting people on report.
12:12
People aren't trying to do this.
12:14
Yeah, I mean, what would people have said if we scored that last try?
12:18
I mean, you played against 11 players.
12:20
That's not a rugby game.
12:21
That's a rugby game versus a soccer game.
12:23
I mean, four guys more than the other team.
12:26
And I'm with you, Jeky.
12:27
We've spoken about it.
12:29
When you're in a mall and you stop the mall and they still get the penalty try, I mean, if you didn't do it, it would just have been a try.
12:36
Why do the guy need to go off the field?
12:39
It's just stupid.
12:41
So, yeah, I think they need to look at it.
12:44
You don't want to go into a World Cup getting a team playing with 11 players against 15.
12:51
Hopefully this is a game where people just have a look at it and say, listen, we need to do something about this.
12:57
Another thing, this is the second week in a row where there's no communication, just in the TMO and the referee.
13:04
How do you get that right that the guy needs to run onto the field with a telephone to make a call?
13:10
It's just bizarre.
13:11
That's something you're 100% sure.
13:14
You must have backup if you want to use those things.
13:16
How can that happen in this modern era of us?
13:21
I'll tell you something, though, Victor, that I think, you know, what's happened, and I'll tell you something that happened in rugby league and the Mighty Warriors, which is a team I'm very passionate about because I played for them a couple of years, they got knocked out of, you know, the semifinal because of a referee's missed decision.
13:43
And what happened is this referee who ran out,
13:49
When I looked, I thought, this guy, and I hadn't seen rugby league for three months, I've been away.
13:52
This guy is a great ref.
13:54
He's dominant.
13:55
He tells the players off.
13:57
But this guy had turned into a passive referee because of upstairs.
14:02
So he's not making decisions anymore.
14:04
The TMO is actually turning our amazing referees into people that can't cope without all these comms.
14:11
Right?
14:11
It was like the Baltimore test.
14:13
Just get on with the game.
14:14
Just get on with the game.
14:15
What's going to happen?
14:17
You know?
14:18
Like, for me, it's crazy.
14:19
So the TMO is turning our referees from these great characters.
14:23
And I love the referees, mate.
14:24
Like, I do.
14:25
They're great men.
14:26
And there's three of them.
14:26
They show a lot of courage.
14:27
They get out there.
14:28
And there's three of them.
14:28
Yeah.
14:28
Yeah.
14:29
Go make calls.
14:29
Exactly.
14:30
But they're all turning into, oh, no, I'm not going to make a decision.
14:33
Let's go to the TMO because I'm not going to look bad.
14:35
And that's what's happening, and it's happening in rugby league.
14:38
So we're taking the personality away from people who are doing normally a great job.
14:43
And someone has to intervene and say, this is not working, people.
14:47
Let's change it.
14:48
All right.
14:49
All right, who's your, you know, who is your Ram hand-to-hand couriers person that delivered under pressure in the Springbok test?
15:03
My Ram hand-to-hand courier person that came through is not a South African.
15:09
I'm going to give it to Harry Wilson.
15:12
I just thought he was outstanding for Australia.
15:17
I think he's a player that understands the game.
15:19
He leads from the front and just his impact in the game was so huge.
15:24
So yeah, unfortunately not going to South African this week.
15:29
I'll give it to the captain of Australia, Harry Wilson.
15:33
Well, that's, that's because you lost.
15:35
You can't give it to a South African.
15:37
JK always give it to the All Blacks, even though they lost.
15:41
Yeah, well, he's a back, so that explains it.
15:45
JK, who's your Ram hand and couriers deliver under pressure?
15:49
The Apple iPhone.
15:52
The what?
15:53
The Apple iPhone.
15:55
the guy who gave the referee the Apple iPhone to talk.
16:00
I mean, that's, you know, just go, son, talk on the telephone.
16:04
I mean, that's how ridiculous it is for me.
16:06
Autophone.
16:07
For the connection.
16:09
Yeah, yeah, it's the phone.
16:11
Like, the phone's got to be the thing that delivered under pressure, right?
16:16
So, I mean, it just highlights how ridiculous our game is at the moment, but...
16:20
Wouldn't it have been funny if he'd answered the phone and it was the wrong number?
16:24
Yeah.
16:25
Just to bring home.
16:27
Yeah.
16:29
Look, Mary, can you call back later?
16:31
I'm just waiting for a call.
16:33
Can I just say something?
16:35
There's so many jokes out there where the ref takes the phone and it's Rossi Rasmus calling.
16:42
It's like, it's just crazy.
16:45
Can I just say, though, let's not blame the refs.
16:48
This is about leadership.
16:50
This is about world rugby.
16:51
The refs do the best job they can, and it just needs to stop.
16:55
It just needs to stop.
16:55
They need to come in and just stop it.
16:57
Right?
16:58
You know, who's that calling?
16:59
That's another ref.
17:02
That's the ref.
17:02
He was just wanting to make sure that we're getting it right, you know.
17:07
Just remember, actually, I asked you, because we've got this competition running with Ram and Dan Curriers about giving away an Isuzu X rider.
17:16
So you go to the website, which is ram.co.za backslash competition,
17:23
And all the details there, how to win an ISUZU X rider.
17:26
And I asked you what they call these in South Africa, and you just said it was – but apparently it's a Buc-ee's.
17:34
Is that right?
17:35
It's a SUV.
17:38
No, this is a Buc-ee's, they told me.
17:42
No, Buc-ee's was buddy Victor's locking, mate.
17:45
Yeah.
17:45
Yeah, buckies.
17:46
Have you heard that term?
17:48
Oh, this is a bucky.
17:49
Okay.
17:50
Yeah.
17:51
So how do you win that thing, Ricardo?
17:52
Can I go in it?
17:53
No.
17:54
You go to the website.
17:56
All the details are there.
17:58
And you can't win it, JK, just so you know.
18:02
Can my wife win it?
18:05
No, you can't.
18:06
No, you can't.
18:07
My name is not going to.
18:09
Work an angle.
18:11
That's a yellow card.
18:12
That's a yellow card.
18:13
Yeah, I just want to sort of...
18:16
What do you think Australia showed that?
18:19
Cause Australia had parity and set pieces.
18:23
They really dominated the high ball guy.
18:26
They did take those two things away from South Africa.
18:30
What else have you got?
18:33
I actually listened to Les Kiss.
18:36
I used to follow Les Kiss too.
18:38
He was a very good rugby league player.
18:39
Transitioned into a very good coach, obviously.
18:42
I listened to both.
18:44
Because he's learned.
18:45
Remember, he coached the string ball, so he learned a lot.
18:47
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
18:49
Yeah, he learns a lot from the spring box.
18:50
He's that good because he was with the spring box.
18:54
Yes.
18:55
I get that, Victor.
18:56
I knew you had to throw that in there somewhere.
18:58
It's good to see you getting your confidence back as we're warming into the show, mate.
19:01
No, you just remember, he's just had a week at Octoberfest, so he's a little bit slow.
19:07
Yeah, I'm a little bit slow this morning.
19:11
It is early as well.
19:13
I think that when I spoke to Les Kiss, the sad thing is, and I think he sort of expressed it a wee bit, that the Australian side were very, very good for 65 minutes, right?
19:26
And...
19:28
Then I listened to Russies and he said the Aussies deserve to lose, but they asked him about Les Kiss and he said, well, he's a detailed coach.
19:35
And if you want to beat the Springboks, you have to win your lineouts.
19:39
You have to at least get parity in the scrum and you've got to get your high ball.
19:43
And for 65 minutes, that's what they did.
19:46
And if you do that against South Africa, then you can put them under pressure.
19:50
Because if you don't put South Africa under pressure, then you're not going to win.
19:55
And that's what they did.
19:56
So I think it's really, really important to say that, you know, Australia were very, very detailed for 65 minutes and nailed those things that put South Africa under pressure.
20:07
Yeah, but I think the one thing that you could see is once we did bring up that first...
20:15
team front row, it was a big difference.
20:18
I mean, all of a sudden, the scrum went racing backwards.
20:24
There's a lot of changes, I mean, on attack.
20:26
You could just see the difference that a guy like Sasha brought.
20:30
And I mean, then you don't even have a guy like Damien Willemse at the back that were fantastic under the high balls.
20:35
So I think these guys that played as well, remember, they haven't played for five weeks.
20:41
For five weeks, they were just holding bags on tour.
20:44
They haven't played.
20:46
that they're the second choice, but it's also they haven't played for five weeks, most of these guys.
20:50
So it's difficult, but I mean, the Australians were good.
20:54
The one thing that I couldn't understand is...
20:59
I mean, we say we are detailed coaching staff, but a lot of our kicks went up onto Suahili, who's one of the best guys under the high ball.
21:08
That's almost like in the old days when you played Australian, was it Falau?
21:13
Fullback was there.
21:15
You need to have a plan not to kick on him because he was the best in the world under the high ball.
21:20
So you had to have other plans.
21:22
And somehow I just felt like all our kicks went to Suahili.
21:25
And I mean, he was fantastic on the wing.
21:28
Maybe that's his position.
21:30
Yeah, I think, you know, I mean, obviously you guys were outstanding when Australia only had 11 players.
21:36
Like, you just dominated.
21:38
It was really impressive to see, you know.
21:40
And, you know, if you want to go out and play other soccer teams, then... Ricardo, did you and JK had a wine yesterday and decided this is my morning?
21:51
Even you are getting on JK side this morning.
21:54
I've missed you having a good time in Europe and me not being able to give you some shit.
21:58
I'll tell you why it has shined.
22:01
You sort of hinted at it earlier, Victor.
22:04
Just how intense that tour was, that rivalry tour.
22:08
When you look at the all-black injury list, it's ridiculous.
22:14
A tour like that is going to take it out of you.
22:17
Taking nothing away from Australia.
22:20
we shouldn't underestimate how much that focus and that tour has taken out of both teams.
22:27
And, you know, and it's shown, you know.
22:31
So maybe you're right.
22:32
Maybe Rossi understands that and he's like, look, I need to rest these players, you know, because they just can't keep going on, you know.
22:40
And we'll see the All Blacks, how they scrub up, you know, who's left.
22:44
I think it's a little bit different for the All Blacks.
22:48
I think there's a couple of differences, Riccardo.
22:51
We lost the series.
22:53
So, like, that makes a hell of a difference.
22:56
There's no way we'll be complacent.
22:58
We've also had, you know, the players have had sort of 10 or 15 days off, which they really need after a competition like that, right?
23:06
Some guys have been released this week to play MPC.
23:09
But the difference, Riccardo, is we bloody lost.
23:12
So our motivation is going to be massive.
23:15
We're also playing at Eden Park, and the Bledisloe Cup's up.
23:18
So I think it's harder when you win.
23:20
I think it's harder on South Africa after an intense time like that when you actually win.
23:26
But we came away wounded.
23:29
both our pride and our players.
23:32
So I think that, you know, Artie's going to be a huge loss to us, but the players now will be, they will not want to lose to Australia now, especially after Australia beating South Africa, you know?
23:45
And so there's massive motivation for us.
23:48
I don't think that will be our issue.
23:50
And remember, we said it actually before the Greatest Royal Rift Tour is that,
23:55
The team that loses, they will be under pressure in the next few games because if they lose again, then all of a sudden, they're not out of place.
24:02
And I mean, like you guys said now, it's just like, oh, Rossi's got a plan.
24:07
We've got this.
24:08
It's not that bad, losing.
24:10
And normally, I mean, if you lost a great rivalry to it and lost this game, then the Knives would have been out.
24:17
What was your clip drift moment, JK?
24:19
Your clip drift moment of the match?
24:20
Yeah.
24:21
Well, Victor's already mentioned him, but I think that Soali, on the wing, coming from rugby league, I think he had a little bit of a stint in Australian rules as well.
24:30
And I think his high pool reception and I think the first try after South Africa started so well, where the centre scored, just getting in the air, competing.
24:40
He's a big man.
24:41
He's a great athlete.
24:42
So I think he was the clip drift man, I thought.
24:49
Yeah, my Clip Rift moment of the week is, I think, SA Rugby.
24:57
Unlike JK, who's, I don't know if he's marketing Rugby League this morning or what he's doing.
25:03
We don't know what Rugby League is in South Africa, so I don't know what he's talking about.
25:08
It's a South African team.
25:09
I mean, in 2015, we went out there, we knew the next World Cup is going to be in Japan, where we're going to win it.
25:16
We went out, we lost against Japan so that the World Cup can be successful.
25:21
This week, we played a friendly against Australia.
25:25
We went out, we gave it to them to make sure the World Cup next year is in a good place.
25:30
There's a lot of people to come and watch South Africa win that third World Cup in a row.
25:35
I just cannot believe you just came up with that.
25:37
Like, where do you drag this shit up from?
25:40
Victor, like- Oktoberfest is where he got it from.
25:42
A week in Oktoberfest.
25:43
You've taken a loss and you said it's all on purpose so that you can win next year.
25:47
We're marketing the next World Cup.
25:48
Just think all of a sudden there'll be a lot more people at the game.
25:52
They think Australia's got a chance.
25:53
You are ridiculous.
25:55
You are ridiculous.
25:56
And I can't believe that you've managed to mention the last two World Cups.
26:00
And it's all part of Russi's plan.
26:02
Talking about ridiculous JK, good to see you got your swim goggles on this morning.
26:07
When do we get our glasses?
26:10
Like you go to Italy, you showcase our glasses being made, you get us all excited and, you know, we still don't have… I was right there next to where they make it.
26:20
He doesn't send me there to go fetch them, nothing.
26:24
Well, Victor was supposed to pick them up, but they're in the mail, boys.
26:29
Don't worry.
26:30
Don't worry.
26:31
Why don't you just give Ram couriers a call and get them to send them down to us?
26:35
They're like, Ram couriers will have them the next day.
26:38
They're like, yeah.
26:39
I'll have it.
26:40
That's what I need to do.
26:42
That's what I need to do.
26:43
Just before we go, JK, there's been a massive meeting in New Zealand rugby this week where they've gone, you know what?
26:51
We can't really continue to run the way that we're being running because otherwise we're going to lose $60 million.
26:58
And we need to change, you know, whether it's the structures of the competition, the high cost structures, whatever it is, we need some change.
27:06
And,
27:07
Somehow you'll be the guy in the New Zealand media that everyone's gone to going, okay, what should that change look like?
27:14
So here's your vehicle, JK.
27:18
What does New Zealand rugby do to have a better system, to lose less money, to engage the fans more, to have a product that people want?
27:29
What do we need to do?
27:31
I think we need a hybrid super NPC competition.
27:35
So I would extend the competition to bring in other provinces.
27:39
I think, and you hate me saying this all the time, we need to get back to tribalism and traditionalism.
27:45
We also need other forms of income.
27:48
So what I would do, this competition has to play all year.
27:51
so that means the All Blacks will have to sacrifice some tiredness and stuff.
27:55
And then four weeks into the competition, we need to break into the equivalent of a UEFA Cup or Heineken Cup, and we need to bring the South Africans back into that.
28:04
But the money from that competition needs to be split up amongst the teams.
28:09
The trouble is that, and I'm sure it's like this in South Africa as well, Victor, is that the Springbacks and the All Blacks, through their competition,
28:18
through their games are supporting the whole game.
28:21
So we need to have other revenue models.
28:23
And I think if we have a European Cup type situation, bring the Japanese in, bring the Springbacks back in, maybe set a franchise up on the west coast of America or in Hawaii and have that competition.
28:40
The Australians can come in if they want to come in as the Waratahs or they can come in as Randwick or they can come in as the brothers.
28:46
But that money from the European Cup goes to those clubs and they can start dividing it.
28:50
They can have a piece of the pie.
28:53
I think when we talk about sacrifices, New Zealand Rugby Union and the All Blacks are going to have to sacrifice.
28:58
The players are going to have to sacrifice and understand that maybe there are too many professional players in the game.
29:04
So they'll have to look at that and see whether we've shortened that.
29:08
It needs to be one simple competition that the fans can understand, plays all year, semifinals and finals, and other alternative ways for income.
29:21
I actually, like, I'm not disagreeing with any of that, but the most important thing to me that you said is something for the fans.
29:29
I think, you know, if you're a business, the first thing you do is like, what do my customers want?
29:35
You know, if I can get that right, then I get more customers.
29:39
And I think as a sport, you know, rugby needs to go, what do the fans want?
29:42
That should be the first thing that they, that's the first question they ask themselves, is what is the product that is going to get the most fan interest engagement?
29:51
Not what is the product that's going to keep the provincial unions happy or keep the Players Association happy.
29:56
What do the fans want?
29:58
And then go from there.
30:00
So I think...
30:02
I don't disagree, Ricardo.
30:03
I don't know if you can bring the fans into the decision making.
30:06
Just another thing, when you run a business,
30:09
if you're in trouble.
30:10
The other thing is, what's my cost?
30:12
Where can I cut on cost?
30:14
And your cost, in New Zealand, rugby, should top 20 players.
30:18
It's not the 50 that's earning this amount.
30:21
It's the top 20 guys earning big money to keep them in New Zealand.
30:25
So why don't you open that up, let them go play overseas, let them pay for them, and they come back and just play for you internationally.
30:32
I have...
30:33
Actually, Victor, I have no problem with that, but I would just limit that to them playing in the Heineken Cup or the UEFA Cup situation so that they're playing within our competition, which is a hybrid, not letting them go to France where we lose them, not letting them go where we get rid of them.
30:50
So I think that if they were playing for a Japanese company that plays in the UEFA Cup, then they play against the other New Zealand sides, you can select them.
30:56
So I don't disagree, and I think that's part of the compromise that would happen.
31:02
Well, that's all the questions answered there.
31:06
So, you know.
31:08
So long as World Rugby and New Zealand Rugby are watching the show, then they have no problems because you're going to solve all their problems with the answers.
31:16
Can we just sort the refereeing out and then we'll be happy?
31:19
Or the yellow cards.
31:20
It's not the referees, the rules.
31:24
Totally.
31:25
Totally.
31:25
I'm in for that.
31:26
Have we got any more friendly test matches this season, Victor?
31:29
Or are there going to be proper test matches?
31:30
I'm just not sure.
31:31
I think we've done until the World Cup next year.
31:34
World Cup next year will be in quarantine.
31:37
I've got to go, team.
31:38
We've already marketed the World Cup, so we've done our bit for World Rugby now.
31:43
I'm not listening to any more of this.
31:44
I'm leaving.
31:46
And then next year we'll be there.
31:48
Thank you.
31:49
Thank you, Victor.
31:49
You're a very generous man and a representative of a very generous country.
31:53
I really appreciate it.
31:54
Victor, after your trip to Europe, don't drink any clippies for a week, mate.
31:58
Give your liver a rest.
32:00
I will.
32:00
I'm off.
32:01
I'm on the water.
32:02
Actually, I'm on my way to the gym now.
32:04
Getting back to my healthy lifestyle.
32:07
No wonder you're not making any sense.
32:08
All right, thanks very much.
32:09
That's another edition of Rugby Rivals brought to you by Rand Hand to Hand Couriers.
32:14
And we'll see you next week.
32:15
Bye.