Latest / The You Project / #2244 Procrastination - Dr. Fuschia Sorois

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#2244 Procrastination - Dr. Fuschia Sorois · The You Project

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Oh, g'day, team.
• 0:00
  Speaker 2: It's a new project. Of course, it is Craig Anthony
• 0:02
  Speaker 2: Harper reporting in for duty. Ah, episode three for the day.
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: It's been a big day. Lots of recording, lots of
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: awesome people. Tonight, well, tonight for me, as I record,
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: it's 7.12. No, it's not. It's 7.02. I need to
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: put on my specs. In the thriving metropolis of Melbourne,
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: down the bottom of Australia, I'm being joined by someone
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  Speaker 2: originally from Canada who now finds herself in.
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  Speaker 1: bloody old England in Durham. Hi, Prof. Welcome to the show.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: How are you?
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  Speaker 3: I'm okay. Hi, Craig. Thanks for inviting me to be here.
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  Speaker 2: Now, let me just give the boring little bio and
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  Speaker 2: then you add to that whatever you want to add.
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  Speaker 2: And I know that we could do a three-hour bio
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  Speaker 2: on you, but the brief is Dr. Fuchsia Sirawa is
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  Speaker 2: a psychologist and internationally recognized researcher specializing in procrastination. Did
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: you hear that, folks? Procrastination, self-regulation, motivation, stress and well-being.
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  Speaker 2: She's a professor of social and health psychology at Durham
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  Speaker 2: University in the UK, a million other things, but we'll
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  Speaker 2: leave it for there. At the minute, what fascinated you
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  Speaker 2: originally with studying humans? Because that seems like a big undertaking.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I actually didn't start out my academic career
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  Speaker 3: with that intent. So, Well, I sort of did. I
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: started off with in looking at I wanted to be
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  Speaker 3: a nutritionist, actually. And then I know somehow I end
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  Speaker 3: up moving. And the only way I could do nutrition
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  Speaker 3: degree was to do biochemistry. But I didn't like working
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  Speaker 3: with animals and the sacrificing. So I think I decided
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  Speaker 3: to turn back to looking at humans. And I think
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  Speaker 3: for me, it was about how do I is there
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  Speaker 3: something I can do to help people feel better and
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  Speaker 3: be better to contribute to their wellness?
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  Speaker 1: So many variables around that, right? Physical, mental, emotional, social,
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  Speaker 1: you know.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, it's such a, I mean, we are two
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  Speaker 2: and a half thousand episodes into this show, right? And
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: we talk, so nine years, two and a half thousand episodes.
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  Speaker 2: So if you could just wrap it all up today,
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  Speaker 2: this would be the last episode.
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  Speaker 1: That'd be great.
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  Speaker 2: Like trying to understand humans, why we do the things
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  Speaker 2: we do, why we don't do the things we don't do,
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  Speaker 2: why we avoid, why we procrastinate, which we're going to
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  Speaker 2: dive into.
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  Speaker 1: And also like....
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  Speaker 2: You and I have a not totally different journey. I
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  Speaker 2: started in exercise physiology. So I started with an exercise
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  Speaker 2: science degree, did a PhD in psychology. So I'm just
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: interested all round in just the human experience. I'm really
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: interested in fascinated by human potential and how much we
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: use and how much we waste and even understanding our
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: own possibilities and potential and fascinates me and having worked
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  Speaker 2: with elite athlete and blokes in prisons and the general
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  Speaker 2: public and, and then, you know, it's like, I'm not
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  Speaker 2: particularly talented and, but I've found a way to do
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  Speaker 2: things with my not overwhelming talent or brilliant genetics or
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  Speaker 2: brilliant brain. I've just found a way to do things.
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  Speaker 2: And so that's, I think for me, it's like, being.
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  Speaker 1: What's the word? This is probably not the.
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  Speaker 2: Right word, but somewhat average has almost been my superpower
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  Speaker 2: because I realized I wasn't special. So if I was
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  Speaker 2: going to do special stuff, I'd have to optimize what
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  Speaker 2: I have to work with. What do you think, we'll
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  Speaker 2: jump into procrastination, but in terms of the kind of
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: existence that people create for themselves, irrespective of situation or circumstance,
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  Speaker 2: what are the things that fascinate you with how we
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  Speaker 2: think and subjective reality and how we create our experiences
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  Speaker 2: and make things hard or.
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  Speaker 3: Easy yeah and i mean that's that's a big one
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  Speaker 3: i think i i mean you know going sort of
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  Speaker 3: back to interest in people i mean observing people i'm
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  Speaker 3: trying to understand why people do things in that and
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  Speaker 3: and i'm totally on board with your idea of potentials
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  Speaker 3: and strengths and obviously positive psychology is a huge area
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  Speaker 3: for me as well too and i try and leverage
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  Speaker 3: a lot of the positive psychology stuff to deal with
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  Speaker 3: some of the weaknesses, you know, that we all have
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  Speaker 3: as humans, such as procrastination, perfectionism, other things. But one
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  Speaker 3: thing that sort of fascinated me is that, like you said,
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  Speaker 3: it's interesting to hear you talk as you're saying about averages.
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  Speaker 3: And that's kind of like taking the mean across the
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  Speaker 3: board of everything you do. But I don't believe that
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  Speaker 3: anybody is average. I believe that a lot of us
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  Speaker 3: are average in some things, we're weak in some things,
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  Speaker 3: and we're strong in other things. And I think understanding
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  Speaker 3: people and sort of looking at how people function and
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  Speaker 3: trying to help them to sort of flourish and be
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  Speaker 3: their best. For me, it's taking the perspective, that perspective
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  Speaker 3: that everyone has some strengths. And often when we go
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  Speaker 3: astray and when we're struggling and we want to help people,
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  Speaker 3: I think it's good to look at. what that strength is.
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  Speaker 3: And sometimes that strength is manifesting in the wrong way,
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  Speaker 3: or it's being directed towards the wrong area of that
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  Speaker 3: person's life or to the wrong domain. And yet, if
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  Speaker 3: you take that same strength that maybe, you know, maybe
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  Speaker 3: it's an addiction or an obsession with something, for example,
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  Speaker 3: that might be a super focus and ability to deep
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  Speaker 3: dive into something and really put full attention. but it's
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  Speaker 3: being redirected into an area that's not particularly healthy or adaptive.
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  Speaker 3: But recognizing what those strengths are and being able to
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  Speaker 3: sort of help the individual to identify those and then
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  Speaker 3: maybe redirect them to something where they can become a
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  Speaker 3: superpower rather than a weakness because they're being used in
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  Speaker 3: a way that's not exactly adaptive or healthy. And again,
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  Speaker 3: that may be just at that particular moment in time
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  Speaker 3: for that individual too. So I think we're we're time
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  Speaker 3: restricted to sometimes on some of our abilities. What might
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  Speaker 3: be a weakness at one time might be a strength
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  Speaker 3: at another time in our lives, you know? And so,
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  Speaker 3: like you said, there's a lot of different variables there
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  Speaker 3: at play, but I think understanding that, you know, we
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  Speaker 3: all have these strengths and they may not always be,
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  Speaker 3: we're not, may not always be using them in the
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  Speaker 3: best way possible or recognizing them. And once we find
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  Speaker 3: that niche where they actually can become that, that superpower.
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  Speaker 3: And when you mean superpower, not where you're like, Oh,
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  Speaker 3: look at me. I'm super fulfilled where you feel like
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  Speaker 3: this is my purpose. This is me. This is that flow.
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  Speaker 3: I do this easily. And I know that it's, it's
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  Speaker 3: not just benefiting me, but it's also, I feel like
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  Speaker 3: I'm connected to the world and it's benefiting others. That's
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  Speaker 3: what I mean by superpowers.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: I love it. I love it.
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  Speaker 2: What about the relationship do you think between the opinion
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  Speaker 2: we have about, you know, our, our, self-belief, like how
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  Speaker 2: we see ourselves, which I think for many people is
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: very self-limiting, even self-sabotaging, you know, versus just objectively what
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: they actually could do if they got out of the
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  Speaker 2: fear and the overthinking and the rumination and the self-doubt
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  Speaker 2: and the self-loathing and the shitty environment and turning down
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  Speaker 2: the external noise and the internal noise. But if it
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: was just how do we get people to operationalize this
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  Speaker 2: capacity despite the inner monologue of you are crap?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a tough one. I think this is where
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  Speaker 3: I think self-compassion comes into play a lot, at least
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  Speaker 3: from my perspective. We all do this, right? We have
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  Speaker 3: at certain points in time that negative inter-dialogue and sometimes
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  Speaker 3: it might reflect that tension being human which is always
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  Speaker 3: wanting beyond our reach right which is always wanting to
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  Speaker 3: be more and recognizing that we're not there and so
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  Speaker 3: kind of beating up on ourselves so you've got this
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  Speaker 3: drive to for improvement to better ourselves but then when
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  Speaker 3: it isn't operating fully in a way that's supporting that
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  Speaker 3: flourishing and that thriving it turns into that negative voice
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  Speaker 3: that becomes the overwhelming voice instead of it being more
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  Speaker 3: balanced and saying yeah i want to improve but I'm
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  Speaker 3: not going to get there by beating myself up on this.
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  Speaker 3: Like if I just focus on what I'm doing wrong,
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  Speaker 3: you know, that's not going to promote or support the
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  Speaker 3: improvement that I'm seeking or that I'm aiming for. So
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  Speaker 3: I think to a certain extent, we're never going to
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  Speaker 3: get rid of that critical voice. It's part of being human.
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  Speaker 3: But it can also lead to a lot of our
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  Speaker 3: own suffering if it's not reined in and if it's
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  Speaker 3: not managed, it's not seen for what it is, which
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  Speaker 3: is a drive to improve, a drive to be better.
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  Speaker 1: Oh, so many things I want to ask you.
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  Speaker 2: All right.
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  Speaker 1: So you said, you know, we always want to be more.
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  Speaker 1: And I agree.
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  Speaker 2: It's it seems like wherever we are, whatever we have,
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  Speaker 2: whatever we've achieved is we're not content or we're not satisfied.
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  Speaker 2: It's like, it's not like, Oh, I'm here now. It's like,
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  Speaker 2: we get to the top of the mountain.
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  Speaker 1: We go, Oh, wrong mountain. It's that mountain.
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  Speaker 2: Like, it's like, it doesn't seem to matter what we
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  Speaker 2: do be create or achieve. there's always this, or there
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  Speaker 2: seems to be some kind of void self-created or other.
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  Speaker 2: And we always have a story about why I can't
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  Speaker 2: be content or satisfied now. Like, why does it always
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  Speaker 2: need to be more?
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  Speaker 1: What is that?
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  Speaker 2: Why do I always need to have something else or
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  Speaker 2: something bigger or better? Or why can't I just be
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  Speaker 2: where I am and go, this is awesome.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, that's, that's the, you know, the big question in, in,
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  Speaker 3: in many ways. And, and, I'm a big science fiction
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  Speaker 3: fan because I like science fiction because it sort of
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: not only brings in what could be, but it also
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  Speaker 3: brings in different perspectives, perspectives from outside of the human race,
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  Speaker 3: for example, looking in on us and saying, this is
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  Speaker 3: what we are, this is what our foibles are, but
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  Speaker 3: this is also what about us is endearing and positive.
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  Speaker 3: And I think, you know, we're often characterized as human
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  Speaker 3: beings as, as always wanting more like that is part
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  Speaker 3: of being human. I don't think we're going to get
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  Speaker 3: rid of that anytime soon. And that drives, you know,
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  Speaker 3: that's driven many of the advances and also some of
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  Speaker 3: the most horrific things that's also happened in human history.
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: But I think there, again, there's that balance.
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: You're right.
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  Speaker 3: We need to, you know, the savoring, the gratitude for
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  Speaker 3: what we have.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: Yes.
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  Speaker 3: That also has to be brought into balance. And I
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: think that's where we struggle a lot because that overwhelming
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  Speaker 3: drive to keep going and pushing and pushing. And it's
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: and it's it's also driven by situational factors and by society.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 3: Like the constant advances in society. We're surrounded by it.
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  Speaker 3: Unless you're living off alone on an island away from
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  Speaker 3: all technology and all news of what's going on in
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  Speaker 3: the world. I think it's very difficult to not get
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: into a mindset where it's going to be more and
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  Speaker 3: better all the time, which tells us a lot about,
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: you know, some of the weaknesses of being so independent.
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: socially connected which is also part of part of being
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: human and the and the need and desire to to
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: be connected um with others and also how we um
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  Speaker 3: pathologize uh people who don't want to have connection with
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: others right and we you know our definitions of what's
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: ill health and and what's um well-being hinge on you
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: know our socialization and our our wanting to be connected
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  Speaker 3: to others and, and be concerned about others. And if
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: we just think about ourselves and want to be isolated,
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  Speaker 3: we see that as not particularly healthy yet at the
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  Speaker 3: same time, if we were to do that, we would
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: probably be, you know, spared some of that outward external
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: pressure that drives that constant need. So I've got to improve.
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: I've got to do more.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: Um, Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: So, I mean, it's, I know there's no simple answers there,
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  Speaker 3: but I think that is something we have to accept.
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: But at the same time, this is all the more
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: reason why we need to more of a positive psychological
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  Speaker 3: approaches to promote savoring, to promote gratitude, to promote compassion
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: and self-compassion and just acceptance that, yeah, we have the strive,
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: but it doesn't need to be the overwhelming be all
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  Speaker 3: and end all of our existence. Yeah.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: Well, I think.
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  Speaker 2: Prof, that world-famous philosopher slash musician, Mick Jagger, put it
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: best when he said, I can't get no satisfaction.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: It's like that might be the title of the show.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: I feel like, tell me what you think about this,
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: that sometimes like with stuff, I want to own that,
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: drive that, earn that. get that, have this brand, this
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: identity or this amount of followers or listeners on the
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: bloody podcast, whatever it is, I feel like that's almost
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: what we think is going to be a conduit to
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: filling some kind of internal void. Like if I could just,
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: and me coming from a background of working with athletes
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: and even models and actors, it's like if I could
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: just look this way or if I could weigh this
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: weight or if my muscles could be that big, they
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: would correlate that essentially with a state of happiness or
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: nirvana or like, and then they get there.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: And I did the same thing.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, I was just this insecure fat kid who
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: grew up to be an insecure bodybuilder, right? And it
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: didn't matter how big my muscles got or how lean
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: I got or how many businesses I opened. I opened
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: a few and did, you know, that same stuff, that
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: same intrinsic thing. you know, self-doubt, you know, imposter syndrome,
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: all the things, didn't matter what my situational context, bank balance,
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: like all my stuff was still there. And even now,
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: you know, not to the same volume, I've turned it
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: down a bit, but still there. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: And I don't, like I said, I don't think that's
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: necessarily going to go away, but I think the trick
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: is to balance that. So when you get that thing,
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: you savor it, you enjoy it, you go, actually, Why
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: did I want this? Oh, I wanted this because it
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: makes me feel this way. So allow yourself to feel
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: that way. It makes me feel more confident. Like, for example,
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: you know, weight has an issue around people get obsessed
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: with weight and how they look in that. And, you know,
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: sometimes it can be to fill a void, but sometimes
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: it can be where they say, yeah, this is me.
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: When I look in the mirror, I see that that's
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: me and I accept me. So what you achieve those
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: things is the self-acceptance that needs to come into place.
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: to sort of cement that and hold it in place
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: where you kind of go, yes, I can savor this now.
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  Speaker 3: I did it. There may be other things I want
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: to achieve, but I feel more like myself now. Right.
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: And then take that feeling, you know, whatever has triggered that,
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: you know, or you thought would make you feel more
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: like yourself and own that and say, yeah, okay, I
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: feel more like myself. So what does myself feel like?
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  Speaker 3: And then do the deep dive inside and say, right,
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: myself feels like this and this and this. And you
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: might identify a few other things you need to work
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: on internally to, you know, even feel more authentic. But
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: I think that personal authenticity, as you said, it's not
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: going to come from the external things, but the external
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: things can be a scaffolding to finally let yourself sometimes
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: accept the fact that you need to go inside and
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: you need to just sort of say, yeah, what is
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: it about myself that I like? The external made me
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: feel a little bit more comfortable and less insecure in
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: the eyes of others, but I am not defined by
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: the eyes of others. I'm defined by my own eyes.
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: And so what do my own eyes see about myself
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: that I like and that I don't like? And I
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: think part of self-acceptance is accepting what you don't like
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: and being comfortable with it. And that's where I go
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: back to that stance of, those so-called weaknesses that you
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: don't like, are they actually weaknesses? Maybe they're strengths, but
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: you're just not using them in a way that fully
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: supports your sense of, of authenticity.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: How much do you think out? I'm opening the philosophical door. Um, why?
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: And by the way, everyone, none of, none of this
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: is instructional or prescriptive.
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: This is just a chat, right?
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: Um, Where does our understanding of ourself come from, like
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: understanding the self and how I see me? How much
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: of that do you think is just innate or genetic
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: or how much do you think of the way that
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: we see ourselves is formed or shaped or informed by situation, circumstance, environment, family, culture?
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: You know, because I grew up thinking, I mean, I
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: grew up in a paradigm that taught me, Craig, success
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: is about stuff. The more stuff you have, the more
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: successful you are. So when I get more stuff, I
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: will be a successful person, right? I never came up
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: with that concept.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: I was just programmed with that concept.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: Where does our sense of self, and I know there's
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: no single answer to this, but for you, where does
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: our sense of self come from?
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: No, I mean, that's, yeah, that is... The big question,
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: as you said, there's neuroscientists and cognitive psychologists and lots
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: of people working on this issue in the sense of
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: consciousness or is consciousness self, is our going back to
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: Descartes and mind-body divide. So is our self just our mind?
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: Is our self, our body and mind connected? Are we
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: able to experience that? You know, the whole, and it
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: hinges on the whole nature-nurture thing. And I'm also a
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: personality psychologist, so the self-perceptions if you like, is another
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: way of looking at personality. I think it's both. So
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: you say in your situation, you were told this, but
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: somebody with other innate abilities may have reacted quite differently
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: to that message and may have rejected that message, right?
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: And so this is where we go back to this
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: idea of really roughly all the studies you look at,
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: it's roughly about 50% nurture and 50 nature right there
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: are some things that that are kind of carried down
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: genetically predispositions our tolerance for negative emotions um our our
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: drive for curiosity um you know our our drive for
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: relationships or for wanting to connect with nature or what
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: have you you know um aesthetics all these things we
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: want to bring it down to the big five you
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: know 50 is that but then we bring that profile
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: and replaced within an environment when we're born. And that
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: environment will help facilitate the expression of some of those
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: traits more than others. And that same profile put in
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: a different environment, you know, when they've looked at a
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: lot of this behavioral genetic studies, right. And sort of
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: twins raised apart and raised together. And fascinatingly, they find that,
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: people's personalities which we would might say is sort of
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: a proxy for sense of self if we objectively measure
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: it um aren't striking similarities like two completely different environments
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: right they would have thought they'd be two completely different
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: people but no you know they're right down to some
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: very core aspects of them so i don't think we
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: could deny that they're that the biological side of ourself
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: um is somewhat set by parental genes and grand parental
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: genes and going back generations and if you sort of
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: start you know looking at inherited traits the same way
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: as you do eye color and hair color that comes
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: through in the sense of self but you know it's
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: an interesting um and fascinating sort of kaleidoscopic profile that
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: we each have, but then we learn to express it
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: a certain way. So, and this goes back to how
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: much we can kind of change those self-perceptions too. We
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: have a range in which we can, we can change. So,
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: you know, the age old question, can your personality, that
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: sense of self change?
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: But, within restricted parameters you're not going to become a
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: completely different person which again speaks to the fact that
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: it's not completely your your environment that's driving things um
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: yeah so it is if you have that range then
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: it's knowing understanding what your range is and your limitations
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: like you know if you're completely introverted and sort of
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: you know wanting your own space you're never going to
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: become a complete extroverted but you become extroverted person but
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: you can become functionally extroverted for example you because you
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: need to because you do public speaking for example yeah yeah.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: Got it yeah that's interesting i've actually worked with quite
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: a my my main job in inverted commas other than
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: this is um corporate speaking and um you have.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: Worked with lots of people who you would call them introverts.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: And because they had a job that required them to
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: speak to groups not necessarily to get on stage and
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: be a corporate speaker but to talk to teams and
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: work with people who've gone from being, you know, pretty
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: much paralyzed with fear to being surprisingly confident and comfortable
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: and skillful, you know, just with, you know, just with.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: Repetition and practice and a few strategies.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: And so, yeah, we can kind of alter how we
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: think and kind of show up. All right, let's talk about,
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: Your book. So the prof, Professor Fuchsia, has written a
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: book called.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: Procrastination. What is it?
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: She's written a few books. More of them lately have
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: been academic. So let's talk about the one we can understand. Procrastination,
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: what is it? Oh, sorry, what it is, why it's
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: a problem, and what you can do about it. You know,
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: in all the time we've spoken about procrastination on the show,
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: but I don't think we've ever done a standalone episode
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: about it or chat about it. So firstly, is there a,
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: I think we all have an understanding of what it
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: is or we think we do. What is your definition?
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: What is the working definition that you use to explain
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: to us what procrastination is? Because maybe we're not right.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: Well, I'm glad you brought this up because it's a
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: great starting point because often we just sort of go
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: right into, you know, the other issues about why it's
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: a problem, et cetera.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: You know, people often, when you say, oh, do you procrastinate?
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: They go, oh yeah, all the time. And then you
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: talk to them a little bit more and they sort
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: of probe and you're actually, you're not as much of
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: a procrastinator as you think you are. And the opposite
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: can happen as well too. So yeah, we understand procrastination
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: is a form of delay, but it's not your garden
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: variety form of delay. There's lots of reasons why we
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: might delay things. And so procrastination as sort of within
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: the field of researchers who work in this area, we've
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: come to this agreement that, For procrastination, for delay to
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: be actually procrastination, it has to have a couple of
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: things going on with it. It has to be a
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: particular type of delay. So it has to be unnecessary delay. OK,
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: so it's not because an emergency came up and you
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: had to put that task aside.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: Which is reasonable and insane. And it has to be
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: involuntary delay. So you chose that delay. It's not like
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: your manager or your partner said, please, can you put
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: that aside and help me with this instead?
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: OK. Yeah.
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: You chose that was completely voluntary for you to put
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: that task aside. And two other key things. It has
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: to be an intended task. So it's a task you
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: either directly or indirectly said you would do. And I
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: add that in because we had a, we do these
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: biannual research network meetings amongst people studying procrastination. And we've
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: had ones with a lot of times philosophers get involved
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: within this topic. And the last one, which is in
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: 2025 in Utrecht, the big issue was, well, How conscious
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: is it that you know that you intended this task?
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: And how aware are you of the negative consequences of
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: the procrastination? So I'll step away from that for a
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: moment and go back to the definition. So it's intended,
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: you said you were going to do it, or you
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: implied to others that you were going to do it.
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: It's an important task. It's not something trivial. Like, oh, yeah,
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: I want to go reorganize my closet, right?
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: Well, how important is that? You've got other more important tasks, right?
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: So we prioritize our tasks all the time. So this
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: would be a task that would be more, you know,
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: looming in terms of its importance in your life. And
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: so we do this, you know, voluntary, intentional, unnecessary delay
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: of this task that has some importance for us. Despite
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: knowing that is going to have negative consequences for ourself
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: or others. And again, this is this knowing from that
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: philosophical stance. Do we actually know what the harms are?
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: Have we consciously made a clear, concrete vision of those
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: harms for ourself or others? Or do we just kind
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: of have a sense that it's not going to be good?
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: And I think it's just having that more unconscious, that
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: culpableness of the harm. So we know on some level
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: that it's not right to do this. That's enough to
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: make it procrastination. So that is the working definition that
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: we use. Anything that doesn't meet all those criteria arguably
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: could not be considered procrastination.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: I would think especially with my background, I would think
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: one of the biggest areas of procrastination would be health,
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: where people are always talking about, I'm going to do
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: this and I'm going to change that and I'm going
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: to start this and I'm going to eat less of
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: this and more of that and do that and lift that.
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: I don't know how accurate this figure is anymore, Prof,
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: but a decade or so ago in Australia, the average
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: active gym membership was about 15%. And what that means
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: is for every hundred current paid up members, 85 of
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: them didn't go.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So they had a gym membership. They had a
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: reason for the gym membership.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: That is they weren't in shape and they wanted to be, um,
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: So they had access to the resources that, you know,
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: they had a program, they had somebody there to answer
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: questions and advise, all those things. But nonetheless, and again, this,
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: I'm not trying to shame anyone, but this is just
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: what happens. In fact, I owned four gyms, right? And
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: back in the day, in the old days, but people could,
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: gym owners could rely on the fact that people would
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: buy memberships that they either would hardly ever use or
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: use sometimes right but they could weigh out so they
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: could sell memberships that the gym couldn't really accommodate knowing
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: that the majority wouldn't come anyway so it's okay right
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: it's like that that's and so here's my theory which
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: may be wildly flawed right my theory on why people
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: procrastinate is I think underlying for a lot of people
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: it's fear, but it's like we also love being comfortable
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: and often the things that we need to do to
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: create the results we want are uncomfortable. And that's a
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: very simplistic snapshot. It's like, yeah, I know I need
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: to do that, but that's hard or that hurts or
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: that's scary or that's uncertain or uncomfortable or unfamiliar, and
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: I hate all that stuff, so I'm going to start Monday. Mm-hmm.
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you're right, sort of on target there and,
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: you know, and talking about some of the specifics in
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: that situation with the gym memberships and we've seen similar
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: stats here in the UK as well. But yeah, from
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: my perspective and Tim Pitchell, who's a person who got
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: me into this field back when I was a PhD
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: student back in the day in Canada at Carleton University,
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: you know, back in 2013, we put together sort of
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: a model, a working model, I guess, if you like,
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: of why people procrastinate that went against all the behavioral economics,
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: you know, it's all about lack of motivation or it's
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: discounting temporal discounting. So you're discounting future rewards and you
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: were doing this rational weighing. Well, those discounts, those rewards
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: in the future that I'll get from using your gym
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: example from being, you know, more fit are, you know,
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: they're outweighed by the rewards I get right now from
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: being more comfortable. So this is rational choice. But we said, no,
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: there's some problems with that because on the surface, procrastination
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: is irrational. It's not something that anyone would rationally choose
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: to do. So when you apply rational formulaic ways of
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: thinking about procrastination, you're always going to come up short
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: in terms. of fully explaining it. And so what we
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: propose and what you kind of described there is that
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: actually emotions are ground zero for procrastination. We procrastinate not
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: the task, but the difficult or challenging or uncomfortable emotions
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: that that we associate with the task. And this can
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: be what we anticipate. So a bit of effective forecasting,
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: anticipating that it's going to be difficult going to the gym.
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: It's going to be hard. I'm not going to like it.
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: You know, we base these, you know, our past experiences
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: or what we've heard from others or just similar types
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: of tasks. And because I don't want to experience that,
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: I want to avoid those negative states, I will Put
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: that task aside. And that gives me an immediate mood relief.
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: And so it's a form, it's a maladaptive form of
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: mood regulation, short-term mood regulation at the expense of achieving
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: our long-term goals. And yeah, the gym and the health stuff,
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: it fits perfectly with that. And in fact, there was
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: a study conducted a few years back in Israel with
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: the general population, and they looked at the tasks that
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: people procrastinate the most on, and health came up as
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: number one.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: And what's interesting is like over the years when I
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: would talk to people just generally about why they don't
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: use their gym membership or, and again, just curious, just conversation,
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: no judgment or shaming, but the number one reason, I
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: don't know what it is now, but the number one
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: reason that people would give.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: Back in the day was time, like a time availability.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: And You know, and this is in a country where
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: even 20 years ago, the average Aussie watched 20, 25
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: hours of television a week. It's different now because it's
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: all phones and iPads and computers, right? But when I
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: would say to people, well, you know, there's 168 hours
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: in a week. You could exercise three times a week
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: for 30 minutes, 1.5 hours out of 168, less than 1%
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: or whatever. And, you know, get pretty good results if
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: you're doing the right thing the right way. But it's
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: hard to take responsibility, I guess, and to say, well,
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: I just don't want to do it, or it's just uncomfortable,
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: or it's not important enough to me at this point
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: in time. I'm more interested in comfort and convenience, which
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: is obviously nobody articulates that, but that's kind of what's
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: going on. And I'm the same with other– I'm fine
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: with health and fitness, but there are other things that
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: I avoid.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: That I shouldn't avoid. Mm-hmm. Because I just hate it.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, yeah, just, I'm the same as them,
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: but with another issue.
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's the avoidance of managing those emotions.
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: And I think This is where, you know, difficulties in
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: regulating one's emotions come into play. And there's been research
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: on this, too. So when you teach people better, healthier,
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: more adaptive emotion regulation strategies instead of procrastination. So we
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: could look at procrastination as a maladaptive emotion regulation strategy.
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: We could also look at it as a maladaptive coping strategy.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: But when you give people a better toolkit of ways
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: of handling their emotions and not surprisingly their tendency to
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: procrastinate tasks goes down because you know we're using that
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: as an external way of managing those emotions that task
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: that nasty task that threatens our self-esteem or fear of
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: failure or it's just plain boring or it's stressful or
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: anxiety provoking whatever it is it's blooming is staring us
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: in the face we take it we put it aside
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: and Immediate relief. We feel great. And the problem with
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: that is it's reinforcing. Yeah. We've just rewarded ourselves, right,
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: by removing those negative emotions from thinking about that task
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: by putting it aside. The problem, though, comes in is it.
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: It becomes a vicious cycle because we know we put
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: it off. We can only put it off for a
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: certain amount of time. And sometimes we might go do
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: something pleasant. So just to be clear here, people often
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: think of procrastination as just you do other things that
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: are more pleasant. You choose and you value those more
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: pleasant activities than that task. That's not the case at all. Okay.
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: Because often, often when people procrastinate, they clean their house.
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: They alphabetize their, you know, their spice rack. They do
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: ridiculous tasks that take enormous amounts of effort and work
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: and are not fun and are not pleasant. Just so
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: they feel like they're doing something because they know they're
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: not doing that task that they should. So it's not
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: about the distractions. This is why distractions, social media do
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: not cause procrastination. They just make it easier to procrastinate. Right.
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: So we cover up those things. potential feelings that have
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: come back to bite us by maybe engaging these other
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: pleasant tasks. But eventually, and there's been tons of studies
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: to show this, we realize we put that task off.
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: And then what do we feel? We feel ashamed. We
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: feel guilty. We start becoming more self-critical. And so what
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: does that do? That has another layer of negative emotions
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: on top of a task that we're already feeling really
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: bad about, which is why we put it off in
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: the first place. So go round and round and round.
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: And this is why guilt and, you know, getting on
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: somebody's case when they're procrastinating does not work.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: What about You know what's interesting?
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: I was just thinking about, so my background is working
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: one-on-one with people in gyms with my stuff, but with
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: personal training. So back in the old days when personal
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: trainers didn't exist, I and a few others started personal
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: training 100 years ago.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: And I think that.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: Like a lot of the people that I worked with,
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: because they had structure, they had a process, they had accountability,
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: they had an appointment time, they didn't want to let
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: me down, they were investing money. So a lot of
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: people who were procrastinators with exercise actually became quite committed
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: because that emotional part to an extent was removed because
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: now they had bought into a process of and there
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: were negative consequences of not showing up and.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: All of that.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: So I think, you know, so if when we, you know,
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: something that we're avoiding or procrastinating about, if we set
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: a goal, create a timeline, create structure, I don't know
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: if these things are part of it or not, but
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: all of that strategic, logical, practical stuff around the emotional,
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: does that help or no?
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: It can.
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: It really depends on the extent to which that emotion
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: and or avoidance of that emotion is driving. So often
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: the intensity of that emotion plays a role. So I
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: like to sort of recently I've been thinking about this
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: more in terms of, say, you know, a task has
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: what I would call an aversiveness quotient. So if it
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: has a low aversiveness quotient, but it's enough to make
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: you procrastinate, say it's like a three or a four.
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: some of the scaffolding with structure and all that. And
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: we know from the research from decades ago that tasks
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: that are ambiguous, that are unstructured, not clear, tend to
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: be procrastinate for the same sort of reasons you were
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: just mentioning. Um, so, but so if the emotion there
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: is a lower level intensity, whatever flavor it is, right.
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: From boredom to stress, um, then that can help. But
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: I would argue that that's still not going to, that's
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: going to create a pathway is going to create a,
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: you know, uh, sort of a route for you to
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: be able to achieve that goal and sort of focus
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: on things but the one piece that's in there is
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: still emotional that it would help you overcome and this
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: is meaningfulness because if you invest money if you're not
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: wanting to let you down if you've got all these
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: other things what you've now highlighted is why this task
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: is important to you why the task is meaningful and
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: so when something's meaningful we're okay with putting up with
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: a bit of discomfort because the meaningfulness is what's important
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: we understand that meaning sometimes takes a little bit of
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: pain to get some gain right yes um and you
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: know i had a phd student a couple years back
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: who tested this very hypothesis and she had people who
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: were procrastinating they came into the study yeah i got
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: this task i'm procrastinating on She put them in three
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: different groups, right? So we used typical experimental design that
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: we use in psychology. And one group, they didn't do anything,
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: just wrote about stuff. Another group, she could think about
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: something positive about this goal, right? So she wanted to
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: test the fact that it's not just meaningfulness, it's not
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: just feeling positive, right? She wanted to test against that.
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: So write something positive about your goal. In the meaning-making group,
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: she got them to fill out three simple sentences. This
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: task is important to me because... This task will add
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: to my personal growth because this task is important to
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: other people because three sentences that they completed. And then
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: when she followed up with them 48 hours later, the
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: people who filled out those three sentences procrastinated less. So
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: they had that a way of tracking how much time
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: they spent procrastinating over those 48 hours. The ones in
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: the positive group, they procrastinate a little bit less as well,
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: but It still wasn't as much as the meaningfulness and
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: there was definitely distinction. Obviously, those who did nothing just
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: kept procrastinating. It's something about creating meaning for that task.
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: Linking and meaning is about connectedness, right? It's looking not
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: just at, oh, I want to go to the gym.
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: I want to build more muscle. I want to lose
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: more weight. Why do you want to do that? Because
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: I want to live a long, healthy life. Because I
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: want to be free to travel the world. I want
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: to be around for my grandchildren. so these are the
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: higher overarching meaningful goals the things that are really important
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: to us but sometimes these smaller goals which can seem
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: really uncomfortable and difficult at the time like going to
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: the gym regularly for example we lose track of why
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: we're doing that and we once we reconnect them to
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: that meaning structure in our life now it's like okay
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: right that's why i'm doing this You know, and yeah,
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: it's going to be a little uncomfortable, but that's okay
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: because I'm going to get that big goal. And this
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: can reignite the motivation that people sometimes need to sort
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: of push through those difficult emotions and achieve their tasks.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: I'm just thinking as you're talking about, I don't know
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: if this is the right term, but I'm going to
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: use it, psychological leverage where somebody who's a bit like, yeah,
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: I'll get to it. you know, a guy, let's use
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: a guy, 50 year old guy. He's like, yeah, I
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: want to lose a bit of weight and I want
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: to cut back on the booze and I want to,
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: you know, whatever, all the things. And then he goes
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: to the doctor and the doctor tells him, well, you're
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: actually diabetic. And these are some of the potential consequences.
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: You're type two diabetic. And this is what's likely to
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: happen to you over the next five years, 10 years.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: by the way, your life is probably gonna be shorter,
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: your health span will be shorter, all these things. Then
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: all of a sudden this guy's mindset shifts. So he's
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: still the same guy with the same genetics and the
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: same resources and the same hours in a day. But
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: now there's been this psychological kind of awakening or curtain
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: being pulled back. And then he goes out and theoretically
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: turns around his life. Like the only thing that changed
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: was he got some new information. Is that a possibility?
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: Does that?
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: So within classic behavior change models, such as the health
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: belief model and theory of planned behavior, often what is
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: a triggering point, it would call sort of a call
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: to action, right? You get a diagnosis, a relative, you know,
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: dies from or gets very critically ill from a condition
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: related to, you know, the behavior that you're wanting to change.
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: And these sorts of moments can be the times where,
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: like you said, people see what's happening, but that I
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: would still put that in the meaning framework because now
• 41:40
  Speaker 3: those changes have meaning for you, right? Like now it's
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: because you want to, like that goal of wanting to
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: live a long, healthy life is being.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: Threatened, right?
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: And so, you know, the meaningfulness of getting fit becomes
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: that much more salient for you. And that is, again,
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: you've activated the meaning. So I think a lot of
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: what we do and don't do You know, especially when
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: it's mundane tasks that we put off, they're really uncomfortable
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: and unpleasant. Once we realize, you know, why am I
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: doing this? Oh, right. That's why. OK, now it's important.
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: And now you see all your tasks and things that
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: you have to do and you connect them together in
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: a network of meaningfulness that can fuel your motivation and
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: your perseverance and your tolerance of the inevitable and negative
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: states you're going to experience as you go forward on
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: your journey towards achieving this meaningful goal.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: What about, I'm sure you have an opinion about this,
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: what about perfectionism? What role does that play?
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: It plays a huge role. But just to be clear, though, too,
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: there are different forms of perfectionism. You know, we tend
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: to lump them together, but what decades of research has
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: shown us is we have these two types of ways.
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: In the research field, we call it perfectionistic concerns and
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: perfectionistic strivings. So a lot of us know about strivings, right?
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: It's that perfectionism where I want to be better. It's
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: like we were talking about before. I want to improve.
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: I want to be the best athlete I can. I
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: want to be the best student I can. I want
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: to be the best business person I can. And so
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: it's apparently, I say apparently because we're always influenced by
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: society's norms and influences. But apparently the standards you're trying
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: to reach are your own. You said, I've set the standard.
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: I want to do this. No one else is telling
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: me to do this. I'm driving this. I wouldn't totally
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: agree with that. And the research suggests as well, too,
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: that it is somewhat influenced by external factors and other
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: people's perceptions of who we should be and what we
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: should achieve. So that's the one form, professional strivings. And
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: we associate that with academic achievement, you know, The other
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: form is perfectionistic concerns. And this is a form of
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: perfectionism that has much more to do with other people's
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: standards of success, society's standards of success. My parents say
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: I should become a doctor. Society says I should have
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: made so much money by the time I'm 50. You know,
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: social media says I should look like this, right?
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: So it's those external influences on who we should be
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: and what our goal should be. That form in particular,
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: we found in a, we did a meta-analysis, which is
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: really just basically saying we look at all the studies
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: ever done, looking at procrastination and perfectionism, and we look
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: at to what degree that they are related. And so
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: we looked at about 44 studies. It was over 10,000
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: people across these studies. And what we found was that
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: it was this more self-critical, socially prescribed type of perfectionism
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: that was related strongly to procrastination, whereas this personal strivings
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: part wasn't really significantly associated. So that tells us again
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: that when we're feeling the external pressure, right, to be
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: more productive, right, to be healthier, to look a certain way,
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: that type of external pressure driving our own, what we
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: think are our standards for how we should be relates
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: to very strongly to procrastination. And part of it is
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: because we're forming goals based on what other people think,
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: not our own understanding of what we're capable of, what
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: makes sense for us, what, you know, taking into account
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: our limitations. So if you, part of the process of
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: deciding whether you're going to do something is you go, okay,
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: here's what I want to do. Okay. And then before
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: you even take action, you do kind of, you know,
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: almost unconscious, you get a sense, can I do this?
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: Do I have the capacity to reach that goal?
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: And, and then, you know, do I think I'll be
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: successful in reaching this goal, which is partly based on
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: whether you think you've got what it takes to actually
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: follow through. Now, if those goals are externally set, they're
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: probably not going to have a lot to do with
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: your own internal abilities. And so most often you're going
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: to go, I don't think I can do this. So
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: you never start, right?
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: Whereas if there's... That self-belief and that lack of confidence
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: and the.
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because they're not your goals.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yes.
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: They're unrealistically high goals that are beyond your capacities and
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: the limits of what you can do. So it makes
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: sense to not do them, but at the same time,
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: you're thinking you should do them and you've set an intention.
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: And so technically you were procrastinating.
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: What is the question that you want me to ask
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: you that I haven't asked you?
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: Um, Oh, I don't know.
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: Is there a question that I should ask that I'm
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: not asking?
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: I guess....
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: I mean, there's two, but you can choose.
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: I don't want to make you do all the work,
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: but you might as well host and be the guest.
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: So what's the question that I'm like, I'm sitting here,
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking, I bet there's an obvious question I'm not
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: asking about this. And I'm sure my listeners are like,
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: ask her this. What is that question, Puff?
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: OK, so if I take from the lens of what
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: the listeners would probably want. So how do you how
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: do you deal with that? How do you help people
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: who are struggling with procrastination? Is there a way to
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: solve it? Is there a way to reduce it? I
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: think that's a big question everybody wants to know. Okay.
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: But the other one, okay, the other one I would
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: say is probably so you don't get your stuff done.
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: What's the big deal? Why is procrastination? Why it's a problem, right?
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: The second part of the title of my book, why
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: it's a problem.
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: Yes. All right.
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about, and I know there's no blanket
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: solution or fix or solve, But if somebody is listening to, well,
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: I would say there's thousands of people listening going, I
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: am a procrastinator, if not all the time, sometimes, and
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: it impacts my life somewhere between one and 10 on
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: the scale. Is there a starting point? Is acknowledgement the
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: starting point where I'm avoiding this or I'm not dealing
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: with that and understanding the source of the procrastination?
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: Is that a starting point?
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So I would say not the source of procrastination
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: because we know what the source of procrastination is. It's emotions.
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: So what a difficult, challenging, unpleasant emotion. So What are
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: the negative emotions associated with that task? And you have
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: to you've got to surface those because so often, like
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: you said, we put like the example you gave is,
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: you know, what people do. I don't have time. No, no, no, no.
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: That's not what's driving your procrastination or I've got too
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: many distractions in my life. No, that's not what's driving
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: your procrastination. There's an emotion that you're avoiding as a
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: way of. managing that emotion. And so procrastination is your
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: avoidant response to that. So surfacing those emotions. And then
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: understanding where those emotions are coming from. And often they're
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: driven by the thoughts we have. It can be driven
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: by perfectionistic thoughts, for example, right? I'll never get this
• 49:37
  Speaker 3: as perfect as I want it to be. So why
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: bother starting? Other people won't like what I do when
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: I finish this. So there's no point in me even starting.
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: This is going to be so difficult. It's going to
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: take so much time. I'm going to be so stressed
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: and so frustrated. I really don't want to put myself
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: through that right now. So I'm not even going to start.
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: That's the effect of forecasting.
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: Um, or you know what?
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: I should be more productive. Look at society, look at
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: all everyone around me, you know, get more done in
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: a day and everyone's so productive and I'm not what's
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: wrong with me. So I'm not even going to start.
• 50:08
  Speaker 3: I'm not even going to tell anybody I'm procrastinating. I'm
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: even going to avoid giving the appearance procrastination because I'm
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: people will think worse of me for that. And there's, again,
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: a lot of shame around procrastination because of those societal
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: norms as hyperproductive, uberproductive kind of norms that we have
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: that everyone should be doing the most. Everyone should be
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: doing their maximal. Everyone should be becoming their best self.
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: You know, it's a lot.
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: Just take a stroll on Instagram and we realize how
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: amazing everyone else is and how pathetic I am. Yeah. Yeah.
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: And so those norms feed into the shame and the hiding.
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: And unfortunately, people don't get support for that. So you're right.
• 50:50
  Speaker 3: There's not any one, you know, way of solving. And
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: I think the first step, though, is surfacing those emotions
• 50:57
  Speaker 3: and then showing yourself some compassion. Because if you start
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: beating yourself up about your procrastination, there are studies or
• 51:05
  Speaker 3: scientific studies that show when you do this, you will
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: procrastinate more. OK, this is a fact.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: OK, because you are layering on more negative emotions. That's why.
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: And this is exactly what this one study that did
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: this following students over a two week period. And they
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: found that those who felt guilty about it beat themselves
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: up more about it, procrastinate more because they felt worse.
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: Another study found that in similar situation with students, we
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: obviously we study students a lot because they are high procrastinators.
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: They're in a high pressure environment. They've got a lot
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: of time, limited tasks to deal with. Students who forgave
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: themselves for the procrastinating. right procrastinate less but also those
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: who are self-compassionate who say you know what yeah i'm
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: not happy about the fact that i'm procrastinating but beating
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: myself up about isn't going to you know solve anything
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: and in fact i can i've made some good progress
• 51:58
  Speaker 3: i can just need to continue and it's going to
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: help me achieve those goals so that can help the
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: meaningfulness can help um Recently, I've tried to... I mean,
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: this has been a big issue for me. I have
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: someone researching in this field for over 25 years now.
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: What do you do to help people? This is great,
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: got all this academic scientific knowledge, but how does it
• 52:21
  Speaker 3: get translated? So the book was one step towards that.
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: But I think... If you're a procrastinator and things are difficult,
• 52:29
  Speaker 3: reading a long book sometimes can be a challenge. You
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: have to be really committed to read that book. So
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: we tried to distill what was in the book and
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: sort of other recent developments into a toolkit. And so
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: I have put together a free toolkit for people. to
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: use that walks right through. Here's the harms and we've
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: made it as short and concise as possible. We've also
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: made it neurodiverse friendly. So specifically for people with ADHD,
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: where we do see higher rates of procrastination because of
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: the difficulty that group of individuals has with emotion regulation.
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: It's not attention control, it's emotion regulation. But anyways, this
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: toolkit then walks you through what procrastination is, why it's harmful.
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: how to surface those emotions. And there's got interactive elements.
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: It's basically an interactive PDF document you download. And then
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: there's like a suite of strategies, depending on the source
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: of your emotions. And you find the ones, oh, yeah,
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: it's because I'm a perfectionist. So what do I do here?
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: Or it's because, you know, I lack meaning in this task,
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: or it's because I'm worried that it's going to be
• 53:40
  Speaker 3: too difficult. So I'm not even going to start. And
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: so there's a suite of strategies in there that people
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: can use as needed when they're struggling with procrastination to
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: help them get on board with finding better ways to
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: manage those emotions so they don't use procrastination to do it.
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: That's awesome. Where do people access that, Professor?
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: So it's called the tempo toolkit. So you can just
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: Google tempo toolkit and it should come up pretty, pretty quickly.
• 54:10
  Speaker 3: We've got, we've got web pages that tell about its
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: development and everything you have to register to use it.
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: That's just so, because it is a free resource, we
• 54:17
  Speaker 3: have to track who's using it. We don't want people
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: to take it and go off and try and make
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: money off of it either. But, but it is there.
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: We've had almost 3000 people download it so far. I'm
• 54:28
  Speaker 3: getting really positive feedback. So, Yeah, it's there. It's there
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: to help, but it's trying to translate the science into
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: something that's accessible and can be applied to people's everyday lives.
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: Well, you do a great job of making the science user-friendly.
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: You know, that's the thing. Thank you. It's interesting.
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: I'm not very academic, although I just finished my doctorate
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: at the.
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: Ripe old age of me.
• 54:59
  Speaker 3: Oh, cool. Congrats.
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: Me just going into that space where I call myself
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: a pracademic in a very academic environment and all of
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: a sudden you're doing PhD research and running studies and
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: getting participants and ethical approval and reading volumes of not
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: particularly exciting, you know, articles and then, you know, learning
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: to write at the level and all of that stuff,
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: that it's such a culture and it's such a way
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: of thinking and being, then to be able to take
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: what you learn and then just chat with people who
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: live in a different world to the academics and to
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: academia and share your thoughts and ideas and knowledge and
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: understanding and discoveries in a way which is actually just
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: helpful to the ordinary person. I mean that respectfully to everyone.
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: You know, that's a gift like that is a skill
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: that a lot of people who come from research don't have.
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: And it's trying to be on a podcast or write
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: a book for the general public, which is readable and
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: relatable and helpful.
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: You know, was that a challenge for you?
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: Because I know you've written a lot of academic stuff, but,
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: but going on, how do I share these thoughts and
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: ideas without using a certain language?
• 56:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, no, no, definitely a challenge. I mean, I have
• 56:27
  Speaker 3: more of a non-traditional academic path myself. So I had
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: a career before I went into academia. I didn't go
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: in right out of, you know, um, high school and that, but, um,
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: it still was a challenge because you're being even in
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: academia trains you to write and think a certain way
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: and to be precise and to be detailed and to
• 56:46
  Speaker 3: use terminology. And so it has, you know, it's, it's
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: taken me, you know, over a decade to, to learn
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: that skill and a lot of it from doing a
• 56:55
  Speaker 3: lot of public talks. So we started back when I
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: was in Canada with, there was a local community center
• 57:04
  Speaker 3: where they were, trying to bring in different, have different
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: courses for adult learners. And they wanted a course that
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: would take some of the science and psychology, psychology of
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: wellbeing in particular, and make it available to their students
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: because this was a big demand. So we put together
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: a few of us in the psychology department and other
• 57:24
  Speaker 3: departments at that time talks, and we had to challenge
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: ourselves to put it together as not giving a lecture
• 57:32
  Speaker 3: to undergraduate students, but These were intelligent. adults, some of
• 57:37
  Speaker 3: them had degrees, but in other fields, so you couldn't,
• 57:39
  Speaker 3: you know, and some of them were just your average
• 57:41
  Speaker 3: single mother, you know, and we had to find a
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: way to start communicating. And, you know, you start communicating,
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: then you get questions, what do you mean by this?
• 57:49
  Speaker 3: And so that feedback, that conversation with the people who
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: you're trying to communicate with helps inform a lot. So
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: I did a lot of that, did a lot of
• 58:00
  Speaker 3: these public talks and get a talking at this level.
• 58:05
  Speaker 3: I need to bring it in a way that's not
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: talking down, but communicating clearly. and in a way that
• 58:13
  Speaker 3: is relevant for people's lives. So that, yeah, it's probably
• 58:17
  Speaker 3: over a decade of skill development. It's not something that
• 58:20
  Speaker 3: I just woke up one day and did. It takes
• 58:22
  Speaker 3: a while to do this, but I enjoy it because
• 58:25
  Speaker 3: you get the insights from people who are applying this
• 58:28
  Speaker 3: in their daily life. You kind of go, yeah, of course,
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: that makes sense. And they will often inspire me to
• 58:33
  Speaker 3: go on and do other research projects. So I love
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: doing that type of science communication.
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, it's been fun for me and I really
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: appreciate you taking the time to chat with our audience
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: and to be on the You Project. Everyone, the book
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: is called Procrastination, what it is, why it's a problem
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: and what you can do about it. And before you go, Fuchsia,
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: where else can people connect with you or find you
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: or follow you if you want to share that?
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so I have a website and that's probably the
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: best landing page to find out anything new that's going on.
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: We have a lot of animations we make that go
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: kind of short explainer animation. about procrastination. And that's fuchsiasirwa.com. F-U-S-C-H-I-A. Sirwa,
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: S-I-R-O-I-S dot com. And that website got pretty much everything
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: on there. I've got a TED talk on there as well, too.
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: And I will have a new book coming out next,
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: maybe later next year on the psychology of procrastination. So
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: that's sort of an updated, different sort of slant on
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: it for those of you who are interested in doing
• 59:40
  Speaker 3: more of a deep dive on the psychological aspects, but
• 59:43
  Speaker 3: from a non-psychology expert perspective.
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love it. I love it.
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: We'll say goodbye off air, but officially while we're on air,
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: thanks so much for being part of the project and
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: good luck with everything moving forward.
• 59:57
  Speaker 3: Okay, thanks. It was great talking with you today, Craig.