Latest / The Right Time with Bomani Jones / Joel Anderson on Tupac's Legacy 30 years after his death | 09.15

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Joel Anderson on Tupac's Legacy 30 years after his death | 09.15 · The Right Time with Bomani Jones

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the right time. My name
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: is Bomani Jones. Thanks for listening wherever you get your podcast.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Thanks for watching us on YouTube. Subscribe, like, rate us,
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: review us, give us five stars. You only give us
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are a hater.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: It is Time Machine Tuesday, or as some people like
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: to call it, Hater Day, because Joel Anderson is.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: In the house.
• 0:29
  Speaker 3: Man, look, as I told you all, I think more
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: and more people are recognizing that I'm much more of
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: a lover.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: It's the opposite. It's the opposite, Joel.
• 0:36
  Speaker 4: I'm much more of a lover than a fighter and
• 0:39
  Speaker 4: a hater. No, no, no.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: You may be more of a lover than a fighter,
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: but you're a hater above all else. Trust me.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: My favorite thing about it is you think that people
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: give more exposure.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: To you and you think that they've learned the opposite
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: of what the rest of us have learned with more exposure.
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: I would say that I do have strong opinions about
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: a lot of things.
• 0:57
  Speaker 4: And if people want to call that hate, That's fine.
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: I'm okay being a man comfortable with being emphatic about
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: my beliefs in a world where a lot of people
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: want to ride the fence.
• 1:06
  Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying?
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: I'll knock that fence motherfucking over.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and your number one thing that you're emphatic about
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: is somebody trying to toss slick to you.
• 1:14
  Speaker 4: I don't. Yeah, man. But even when they're not!
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: Okay, okay, okay.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: So this is actually very funny because Time Machine Tuesday,
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: part of why we're here, we just had the conviction
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: that Keefy D.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: in the murder trial, Tupac.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: And it is interesting that Joel has such a problem
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: with people talking slick to him.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: Yet and still, I will say this, he is courageous because.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Even though he has that inclination, that man was riding
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: around Compton the other day looking for Crips.
• 1:43
  Speaker 4: Okay, so let me just give you a little bit
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: of clarification.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: On this episode of Crip Hunter.
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  Speaker 4: Stop it.
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: I was not looking... Okay, I was looking for Crips, okay?
• 1:54
  Speaker 4: But.
• 1:56
  Speaker 4: The context of this is that people know I was
• 1:59
  Speaker 4: in LA last week for work to record a podcast.
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: And I was like, while I'm out here, man, I
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: have an opportunity to go to Compton where Keefy D
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: is from and drive around and see if I can
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: find people that know him. And so what I did
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: was I drove around Grape Street, which is one of
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: the streets he was on.
• 2:17
  Speaker 4: And that's one of the crew, the Grape Street Crips.
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: And some of the streets around Ralph Waldo Emerson Elementary,
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: people in Compton probably Another area I'm talking about.
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: So I'm just driving around and I'm looking for old
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: heads in blue.
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: That's what I thought.
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: I'm just like, there's a chance this person might know
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: Keefy D, right? That makes sense.
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: Like a 50 to 60 year old black man. And
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: I'm just like, I bet this person might know Keefy D.
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: Now I struck out. I didn't actually meet anybody. the
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: new KFED, or maybe they didn't want to tell me.
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying?
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: It's not like I had a business card or, you know,
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: a media pass. They may have thought I was a cop.
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: But I just, you know, I thought I might give
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: it a shot.
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying?
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: I ask you this sincerely.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: Because one thing I admire about you and, like, for
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: real journalists is Joe pulled up on anybody.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: Joe pulled up on Clarence Thomas' mama.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: You said then you pulled up on Josh Rosen's mama
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: that one time and they called the.
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: Josh Rosen's daddy. That's right. He got so mad.
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: He followed me to my car and had the UCLA
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: SID on the phone while he had me in my car.
• 3:25
  Speaker 4: So yeah.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Like, like Joe, Joe, Joe got a question. Joe
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: pull up on you. Right.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: So what were you like? I suck. You know, like,
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: like how does the, how does the approach go when
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: you're on the crip hunt and you look for people
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: that know Kiki deep?
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  Speaker 4: Okay.
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  Speaker 3: So, I mean, really, I'm hollering from the car. I really,
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: only once did I get out of the car. I'm like, yo,
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  Speaker 3: what's up, man?
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  Speaker 4: My name is Joel. I'm sorry about the, my name
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: is Joel.
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  Speaker 3: I work with a media company and I'm working on
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: a story about Dwayne Davis, otherwise known as Keefy D.
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  Speaker 3: And I know y'all live in this area. He said
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: he lived in this area too. Just want to know
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: if you know his family or you grew up with him,
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: anything like that.
• 4:11
  Speaker 4: And, you know, they'd be like, nah, you know. But
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: that's it.
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  Speaker 3: I'm always, I try to give everybody a chance straight
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: off to be like, hey, look, I'm not here to
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: be a cop or anything.
• 4:19
  Speaker 4: I just want information. And if you don't have it,
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  Speaker 4: it's okay. I'll get back in my car and leave.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: Well, this is what I want to know. Once again,
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: given how you feel about people getting slick with you.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: How did you feel about them people looking you dead
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: in your face and lying to you like that? Right.
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  Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's just that's the thing I actually
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: have just gotten used to as a reporter. Like I
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: get I'm like, OK, I get it. You don't want
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: to talk or whatever. But yeah, lying to me is
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: always something. that I'm sort of used to.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: So that's the shade that you can tolerate.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: People be accidentally just saying things and you'll be ready
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: to go through the roof.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: They look at your face and lie to you, you
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: can handle that.
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  Speaker 4: Well, you know what, Bo?
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  Speaker 3: Also, the thing is, and this is going to maybe
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: seem hypocritical, I never understand why people talk to me.
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: I never get it. I mean, I don't answer my
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: door for nobody. You show up to do anything at
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  Speaker 3: my door, I'm not answering the door, bro.
• 5:17
  Speaker 4: I'm sorry. You gotta call before you come.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: It is so interesting how the answer the door thing
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: has changed over the years, right? Like, I remember very
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: clearly in the year 1997, I.
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: Had gone to my parents' house. It was when I
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: was in college.
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  Speaker 1: And so I had gone over to my parents' house
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  Speaker 1: because I had a car there, but I could only
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: use it on the weekend.
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  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: And so I went to get the car, apparently had
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: left the lights on or something like that.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: And the battery was dead. And so I went next.
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  Speaker 1: Door to the neighbor's house to ask if I could
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: get a jump.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: Now, granted, these old people, but still. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: I go to the neighbor's house and I ring the
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  Speaker 1: doorbell and the lady come to the door and she
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: asked me what I want. but she don't answer the door, right?
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  Speaker 1: And I tried to explain, hey, I live next door,
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  Speaker 1: you know, my parents, I know you may not have
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: met me, you know, you ain't met me yet, but
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: my parents were just moved in next door, batteries dead, dah, dah, dah.
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  Speaker 1: And she told me that she couldn't, you know, give
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: me a job, but she said she had a charger.
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  Speaker 2: I said, okay, cool.
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  Speaker 1: And I don't remember exactly how this part went, but
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  Speaker 1: I do remember The charger was on the porch. Like,
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  Speaker 1: I don't know what happened in the in-between where I
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  Speaker 1: left and came back and it was on the porch.
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  Speaker 4: Oh, yeah.
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  Speaker 1: But she did not open the door for me to
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  Speaker 1: be there at all. And I remember having to, like,
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  Speaker 1: kind of have it explained to me the vulnerability of
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  Speaker 1: old people.
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  Speaker 4: Oh, yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Because it was so bizarre to me, this unwillingness to
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  Speaker 1: open the door.
• 6:45
  Speaker 4: That's right.
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  Speaker 2: Because back then, we still opened the door for strangers. Absolutely. Like,
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  Speaker 2: we still did this. And so the.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: Idea of like being a journalist and knocking on somebody's
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  Speaker 1: door wasn't nearly as crazy 30, 40 years ago as
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: now where this dude I do not know has come
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  Speaker 1: to my door. Like Josh Rose's daddy would not have
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  Speaker 1: called nobody on you 25 years ago.
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  Speaker 4: No, not at all.
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  Speaker 1: Not at all.
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  Speaker 4: And you know what happened?
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  Speaker 3: I did leave like a little note on his door
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  Speaker 3: saying who I was. So I wasn't at that help.
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: He probably saw that and looked at it and was like,
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: all right, I'm going to come out there. But yeah, no,
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  Speaker 3: I mean, I have a who's who of people. I mean,
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: I pulled up on Ben Carson's brother in Georgia. I
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: pulled up on Thomas Sowell. You pulled up on Thomas Sowell?
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: Thomas Sowell, yeah. He lives in a Bay Area town,
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: not too far. It was about 20 minutes from where
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  Speaker 3: I live.
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  Speaker 2: Stanford prof.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, Stanford prof. And I knocked on the door.
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  Speaker 3: And the first time, nothing happened. The second time, I
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: knocked on it. He answered, he said, who is it?
• 7:48
  Speaker 4: And I said, who I was. He's like, no. And
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  Speaker 4: I was like, all right, that's good.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, I figured he'd be the type that's down to talk.
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  Speaker 4: Nah, man.
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: You tell that story. Do you have this happen to you?
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: Like when conservative white people like me more than they
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: expect to.
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  Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: And I'd be like, yeah, you know, I really, you know,
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: I don't always agree with you, but I really like,
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: you know, things that you, a lot of things that
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: you have to say and, you know, you seem really smart.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: And so I was just curious. Are you familiar with,
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: With Thomas Sowell? That's always the one they go to.
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  Speaker 4: That's their one.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: And Sowell's had a fascinating evolution because Sowell used to
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: be a little bit more on my side.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, man. No, man.
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: I mean, that's one of Clarence Thomas' OGs, man. He
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: helped get him in the game. So, yeah, I thought
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: of him as a fascinating figure. I really wanted to
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: talk to him. And I still do. I mean, he's
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: still alive. He's got to be like 96, 97 years
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: old right now. But, oh yeah, man. And so I, look, man,
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: you right. I will pull up on anybody. Now, everybody
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: in my family thinks that's crazy. They think that the
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: days of me knocking on people's doors probably should come
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: to an end. But I'm like, man, sometimes people will
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: do it. Like, how you going to tell me I
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: shouldn't do it and Clarence Thomas' mama let me in
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: her house?
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: Nah, so you went crip hunting.
• 9:06
  Speaker 4: I went crip hunting.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I do think you had the right idea,
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: although I will say, sadly, the demographic that you described
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: is not very populous.
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well, that's not very many got a chance to
• 9:18
  Speaker 4: get over.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, living, yeah, elder Gen X living crips.
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: Because basically, Keefie D feel like the only person, Keefie
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: D and Suge Knight feel like the only two people from.
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: The story still alive.
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: I mean, you know, Oh, and Diddy.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: We'll get to that.
• 9:35
  Speaker 4: Oh, yeah, we'll get to that.
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: Keefie D, it was the only person in the car
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: from that night. There were four people in the car
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: that pulled up on Pac. He's the only one that's
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: still alive. But also, you know what happened in Tubo?
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: And I mean, this is just, I mean, assuming these
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: Crips had a chance to get older, they move, man.
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: Like some of the people I talked to that are
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: involved in this story, they live in Riverside County down
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: in Corona, stuff like that.
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah, they've had to.
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: they've had to move out the city because even, even
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: that property is too expensive for them to live in
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: these days. Like they got to move, they got to
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: move further out of LA, man.
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: So, um, yeah, so it's, it's, it's tough.
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: I knew that it was a long shot but I
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: at least wanted a chance to go over there. Man,
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: I drove by the corner where Orlando Anderson got shot,
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: the old car wash was there, right across the street
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: from Compton High School, which is funny enough. But yeah,
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: so I've been to Compton before, but I just felt
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: like I'm here, I get paid to do this.
• 10:31
  Speaker 4: Why would I not do it, man? It's just fascinating
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: to me.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so what did you think when you saw the
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: sentence come down? For people who don't remember, Joel did
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: a season of slow burn for slate on the big,
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: biggie and Tupac, the rivalry, I guess the murders, it's
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: kind of hard to say. It's not like ultimately about that.
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: So you are well-versed in the topic.
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I am. I, you know, it's crazy. I,
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to say I'm one of the like
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: handful of surviving, like Tupac and biggie, not experts, but
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: people that.
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: Are like, you know, I think it's fair. Yeah.
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: But I mean, it really is that like, I mean,
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: cause I, I mean, I had to do a whole
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: media tour on NPR and, you know, NBC and all
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: these other places. And so it's shocking that that has
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: happened to me in my life. But yeah, so you
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: asked me what I thought about the conviction.
• 11:16
  Speaker 4: I'm not surprised.
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: I'm not surprised because I think that there is a
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: desire among a lot of people to close this as
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: if it can actually be closed. And the idea that
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: somebody who was talking all this shit for over a
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: decade I did it.
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: I did it. I wrote a book about it. I'm
• 11:35
  Speaker 4: making money off of it.
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: And it just kept pressing people that eventually somebody was
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: going to pull his card, and this is their way
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: of trying to close it. And I think that there
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: are a lot of people, prosecutors, people in law enforcement,
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: people that are sort of fans of Tupac but don't
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: follow closely, they think that that means closure.
• 11:55
  Speaker 4: And there was a desire to get that.
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: But I think if you get a little closer to
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: home and talk to people that are still involved in it,
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: it's not that's a piece of it. That's one chapter
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: that's closed, but there's still a whole book to be
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: written on it.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: You know, so I want to talk, it's a great
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: point you make there, just kind of the general idea
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: of closure in this. And in terms of, for me,
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: at least in my perception of it, and I don't
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: want to speak too much about anybody else, but just
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: as I heard that and what I thought about is.
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: Who was it?
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: Was it Biden that gave the pardon to Mark Zagarbi?
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: Man, is that right?
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: Did he do it? I remember it came up, right?
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: But I can't remember if the pardon for Garvey was
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: actually given.
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: I don't think he actually got it.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: Oh, he did get it. Biden did it.
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah, final day in office.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Biden did it.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: And so, to me, I was kind of on a
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: shoulder shrug situation. Like, I mean, okay, the brother's been
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: dead now for, you know, however many years.
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: If that's what we're doing, I guess, right?
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: But then I was talking to somebody who knows these
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: things and he was like, it's really important to the
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: Garvey family that this be done.
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: Wow.
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: The idea that he not be treated as a legitimate
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: enemy of this state toward whom he truly did nothing.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: That was the thing for them. They wanted that. And right,
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: I had the same response you did.
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: I was like, oh, okay.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: I thought they would have just thought it was some nonsense.
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: Like I get it with some of these cats that
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: want to be part because like, damn, I.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: Want to vote. Yeah, right.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: I don't want to have to put in this paperwork
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: every time I go do X, Y, and Z.
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: I want to own a casino. You know what I'm saying? Right?
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: Like, you know, but I got it. But like with
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: a dead person, it's like the Jack Johnson.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: Part, right? Or the idea of that.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: It was just kind of like, I mean, if you
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: say so, but then I heard that family cared and
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I have to look at that differently.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: I forget who, it may have been Jeff Weiss, I
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: can't remember, was written something after the conviction and kind
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: of describing the whole scene and everything. And it mentioned
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: the members of Tupac's family who were in court and
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: who were weeping when this was done. And I think
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: a big part of it is because we so closely
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: and readily associate Tupac with his mother who is dead now.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: But I had kind of forgotten in a way that
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: this isn't actually just about us. Like us being the
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: larger population, the fans, people with like a voyeuristic curiosity,
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: whatever it is. Like I had managed to really divorce
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: myself from the idea of, that there are still people
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: who view themselves as siblings, cousins, whatever it is, of Tupac, right?
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: And it's not like he has a huge family at
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: this point anymore, right? Like Afeni, I mean, yeah, there's Set,
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: there's Afeni. Moprene is his brother-in-law. And I mean, there
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: is his father who was not really involved in his life.
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: But in terms of people that were really close to
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: him that were related to him, there's just not very
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: many of them around. And so, yeah, I could imagine
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: that that was very cathartic for set that day. Like
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: to see, oh, wow, like somebody, one person is being
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: held accountable, which is not the same thing as everyone
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: being held accountable.
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: But one person is being.
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: Held accountable and that had to, I mean, I'm sure
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: in that moment it had to feel cathartic.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's just, I found myself as I was
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: reading a couple of those recaps, and I talked about
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: this like very briefly recently, um, on the show earlier
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: in the, um, last week, but it was really wild
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: to go back and think about what those times were
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: and to really get a grasp or handle on the
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: breadth of the violence.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: Of that time.
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: So like right now, my current fascination, I was telling
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: you about this off air is I'm reading these books
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: about 1980s Miami and it is cartoonish and the level
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: of violence that that city was undergoing with the cocaine
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: trade and everything else where people are just showing up
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: and getting killed dudes.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: Like it was, it's every book I've read about this.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: When they get to talking about murders, it just so
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: matter of fact, because it's like, if you study Miami
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: in that time, you can't get so charged up about
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: people getting killed because everybody was getting killed.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: Like it was crazy. It was rampant.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: It was callous, right? Like it was almost flippant the
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: way that people were getting killed. And then like you
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: mentioned all those people that were in the car, Keefy
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: D's the only one that's alive. Even if we're not
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: talking about people that were in that car, almost all
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: the major figures when you go around and talking about
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: this are literally dead or in jail. The 90s in general,
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: if you weren't there, I hadn't thought about this because
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: we were young when it happened, right? But the idea
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: of the songs like the Gangsta Lean song.
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: This is for my homies.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: Or both those crossroads. Funeral dirges.
• 16:58
  Speaker 5: We're on the radio and highly relatable content. Like ghetto boys,
• 17:03
  Speaker 5: six feet deep is a single because people are truly
• 17:06
  Speaker 5: burying so many of their friends and family.
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: Right. Yeah. The eighties and nineties were great.
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, think, I think people have talked
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: about this a lot, but that was like the height.
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: Of violent crime in America.
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: Like the late eighties to about the mid nineties was
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: where it was. And that's, you know, the term super
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: predator comes out of, right. When they were coming up
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: with the three strikes in your outlaw and there were
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: so many laws that were passed to get a handle
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: on that. But yeah, I mean, it was, I mean,
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: really scary. I mean, in retrospect, my parents, I always thought,
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: y'all tripping, man. Why y'all so scared about me going out,
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: doing this or whatever, going out? But if I was
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: consuming the news that they were and living in the
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: times that they were at that time, I might feel
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: the same way because you mentioned all the bloodshed around this.
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: So the day after Tupac gets shot, not even the
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: day he dies, like in Compton, something happened that at
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: least a few people would call the 10 days war
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: where the blood, the bloods and the crips went off
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: on each other. They were just retaliatory shootings for like
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: 10 to 12 days. And at least three people died.
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: Many more was shot. And I was like, yo, like
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: that's just collateral. Like that's to, to, to, to the
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: rest of us, that's just a number, a number of people.
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: But I was like, yo, people actually had to live
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: through that. And so, yeah, it's, I mean, most of
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: them are young. We're not talking about 50-year-old people, man,
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: that are getting caught up in this. These are like kids, basically,
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: that are getting shot over this stuff.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: And then Orlando Anderson, a.k.a. Baby Lane, who just about
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: everybody believes is the man who killed Tupac, right? Like,
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: especially if you believe this verdict is legitimate, then that's
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: basically what it is.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: Because KBD's thing is.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: I was on the side of the... I would have
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: to shoot across the driver. I passed the gun across.
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: Boom. You know.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: Then they shot, then they shot Tupac. He dies a
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: year later on something completely different.
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: Well, that's what I'm saying. He just got shot.
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: He got shot at a car wash right across the
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: street from Compton High School. And it was, you know,
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: it was some gang shit, right? But again, that's just
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: what it was, man. And that's... All the music we
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: were consuming was about that stuff at that time. Yeah,
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: because you're right. This Is For My Homies was, to me,
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: sort of a goofy song.
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: Yes. Right? I'm just like, man, what you talking about, man?
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: Come on, dog.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: Man, it was Cats Here and That.
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: Yes. Yeah, man. That shit was hitting them hard. I mean,
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: I Wish by R. Kelly.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: Not quite the same thing. I will tell you this, though.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: My best friend died a month before that song came out. And, buddy,
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: that song hit hard as a ton of bricks.
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: Hey, man, that song could catch in your throat if
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: you lost somebody in your life, bro, at that time.
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: So, yeah, I totally get it, man. I totally get it.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, so this is i.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: Don't know like i know that there's an element and
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: i want to get to this a little bit later
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: about whether.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: This continues into something else um.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: But I kind of want to talk to you about
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: it in part just because, you know, you and I
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: grew up at a time when we defended a lot
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: of stuff because we really felt like if you was
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: attacking rap, you was attacking us.
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: You know, like it felt very personal.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that those attacks ultimately weren't personal
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: or people didn't necessarily go too far. But I now
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: look back at this as a legitimate middle-aged man. And
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: I look back at those times and like you just said,
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: I can't imagine what it was like for our parents.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: And these aren't just, like, these dudes ain't just, like,
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: some hoods you got to worry that your friends, that
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: your kids aren't going to hang out with.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: They're stars, right?
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: Like, they are the personification, like, the artists are the
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: personification of everything you're trying to prevent.
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: Well, so that season of Biggie and Tupac that I did,
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: it's my least favorite of the narrative pods I've done,
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: just because I was so new to it. But my
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: favorite episode from that is actually about C.
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: Dolores Tucker.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: Okay. And C.
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: Dolores Tucker, for many people, she was a civil rights
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: activist in Pennsylvania, sort of a failed politician. But she
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: took up the crusade against gangster rap. Like her, Reverend
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: Calvin Butts, who's up there in Harlem, and some other folks,
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: really going hard against rap. And so- at the time,
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: I'm thinking they're buffoons. I'm like, you know, you signed
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: with Tipa Gore against Tupac?
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying? Just because he want to
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: call you a bitch? You know what I'm saying?
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: And so at the time, I'm like, oh, these old
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: people are being ridiculous.
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: And I'm sure that they had their own music and
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: a piece of their culture that the generation before them
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: found to be regressive or whatever else.
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: But as I get older, and especially as I read
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: about C.
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: Delores Tucker, I was like, man, I cannot believe they
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: were out there talking about this old black lady like this, bro.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: Just because she thought it was enough. Well, she was
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: a little cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs on top of it. Like,
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: that was one thing that the series also pointed out.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: But I do look back on it now and be like, oh, damn.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: We was tripping.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: Like, have you seen Snoop talk about that time that D.I.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: Warwick called her Suge over?
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: I have heard that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: And so for those who don't know this, Snoop tells
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: this story that D.I.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: Warren called Suge and Snoop talk about the lyrics and
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: talk about the music.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: And then she looked at them both and was like,
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: call me a bitch. Sitting right here. Call me a
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: bitch to my face. And it's like, whoa.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: And the way Snoop put it, Dionne Warwick was the
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: biggest gangster in the room that day.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: Now, granted, it ain't really changed nothing they did.
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: No, they kept moving how they were moving.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: However, they did get the point. Absolutely. The point was
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: very clear.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: And I felt that way about Tucker, too, where like,
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: you know, Dolores Tucker, you a motherfucker.
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: Instead of trying to help a brother, you attack a brother.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: Just like, hey.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: Now I look back on it, I'm kind of like,
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: on the gender type stuff, yeah, like all of that,
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: I get it. But also just on the levels of violence,
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: like that clip of Quincy Jones where he called all
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: the rappers together and was like, hey, man, I don't
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: think y'all see the direction that everything is going in.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: But those are really the times, like when people talk
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: about that oppressive crime bill in the 90s, it's a
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: reason all your favorite black congresspeople voted for that.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: Somebody had to. Do something.
• 23:13
  Speaker 4: It was very scary.
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: America in the 80s and 90s was really scary to
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: a lot of people. They'd not seen that kind of
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: violence at that scale in modern history.
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: And so, yeah.
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: So, I mean, again, whereas today we have the benefit
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: of hindsight and to think, oh, I don't know if
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: we should have imprisoned all those black people like that.
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: At the time, like you said, I'm like, man, we
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: got to do something about this, bro.
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: The neighborhoods are overrun. People were scared. My parents were scared.
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: You know what I mean?
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: And so I get it, even though by today's standards,
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: they weren't necessarily right.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: And then when we think about the fact that the
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: gangster rap or whatever was an organic phenomenon.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: However, once them white people saw the N.W.A. could sell
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: two million records straight out of Compton without no radio.
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: Now this is a sellable commodity, right?
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: And what I said forever, boy, I don't think when
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: Public Enemy put out that music at our Message album,
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: I have never seen an entire ecosystem around an industry
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: all come together to destroy.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: One of its heroes.
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: Like they flat out came to destroy Public Enemy when
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: that record came out. They were able to survive Professor
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: Griff saying that the Jews were responsible for for 70%
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: of the wickedness.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: They did an album critiquing gangster rap and it was over.
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah, man. Nobody wanted to hear that shit, man. They
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: were moving too many units.
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: And the funny thing is, is that we kind of
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: all knew what was happening because people, I don't know
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: if people here are old enough to remember, watched CB4
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: and Fear of a Black Cat, which was a spoof
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: of all these gangster rappers or whatever. And like the
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: stuff that, the things that they would do to get on.
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: They would take a bunch of buffoons, dudes who were
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: not actually gangsters, and try to sell this music to folk.
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: And it was like, yeah, I mean, I could kind
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: of see that. But actually, let me ask you both.
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: Did you think Ice Cube was a gangster for real
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: when you were growing up? Did you think Eazy-E was
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: a gangster for real? I wasn't sure.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: So I think the trick bag on that for me
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: is that you are two years older than me. Which
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: is enough of an age gap to make a difference
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: for the discussion that we're having right now.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: By the time I was really in a place to
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: be trying to figure out what those people were, Dr.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: Dre had told me that they was not gangsters.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: Because Cube is the one that always has to answer
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: for it.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: Above all else. He's always the one.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: All the disc records against Cube and nobody had more
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: disc records made against him in that time than Cube.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: It was all you went to the high school in
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: the valley and you wasn't really no gangster. But you
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: go back and you listen to those Cube records. And
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: at the very least, he sounds very familiar with what
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: the gangsters do.
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah, man.
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: So he got a lot of credit for living in
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: the neighborhood, which I guess like, I mean, a lot
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: of us.
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: And if we if we.
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: Want to be real with ourselves, we take our affiliation
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: with our neighborhood. If you grew up in a particular
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: neighborhood is the means to say that you tough.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: It confers credibility upon you.
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: It confers credibility on you.
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: But, you know, I talked to Ice Cube for a
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: story I did for Slate a few years ago. And
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: talking to him, he's just a really creative person. He's
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: really good at telling stories. And so it doesn't matter
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: the difference if he was doing it in rap, movies,
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: whatever else, writing about different kinds of rap, doing that
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: West Coast boogie shit that he was doing with WC
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: or whatever. You know, so like he just was a
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: really talented guy and he was very convincing and he
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: had some proximity to it. And so I was like,
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: I don't know if these dudes are real or not,
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: but it sounds real. But at least I know this
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: shit is hard and I want to hear it.
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying? I mean, DJ Quick. You
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: think DJ Quick? I mean, and I love DJ Quick.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: Well, DJ Quick was very much so a blood.
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: Like, but do I think he was a gangster?
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: I know he was a member of the gang with
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: a fervent loyalty.
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: I mean, that performance at the Source Awards in front
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: of MC8 with the red.
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: Handkerchief hanging out his pocket, bro. I mean... Dollars and cents, man.
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: I was like, damn, bro.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: LA different.
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, very different.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: Eight, because the G ain't in you.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: Like, that was a rap battle between two guys that
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: weren't that great at rapping. However, the Patrick, quick guy jams,
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: but quick guy beats.
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: Oh, yeah. That's his thing. That's his thing.
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: He's an amazing musician, as you know.
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: So, yeah. All right.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: Coming up next, we got more on this Tupac trial
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: with Joel Addison.
• 27:59
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  Speaker 1: and use code BOMANI to get $ 150 instantly in lineups
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: if you win your.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: First $ 5 lineup.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: Again, download the app today and use code BOMANI to
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: get $ 150 instantly in lineups if you win your first
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: $ 5 lineup. Prize picks run your game. All right, we
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: are back with Joel Anderson. I have been waiting for
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: this to turn into a Diddy situation with Kifidi and
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: the plea. Kifidi, and I guess I also need to
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: spell this out for some people who haven't paid attention
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: to this or are not on these corners of the internet,
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: because God knows I'm not really on those corners of
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: the internet. Kifidi spent the last few years doing these
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: pay-for-play interviews that wind up getting chopped up and aggregated
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: on the internet. And he was convicted off of the
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: stories that he was telling about all of this on
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: the internet. Was the MF Doom line sitting in court
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: and being their own star witness?
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: Like, this was him.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's basically what the evidence was that they
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: used against him. And the defense was, you know I be.
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: He was lying, dog. He's a liar, bro.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: He's a liar.
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: I'm a liar.
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: That was the defense. Man, I used to be out
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: here saying shit, dog. I don't really be out here
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: killing people like that.
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: Oh, yeah. I will say it.
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: Is a compelling argument because Keefie D needed money.
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: The reason he's.
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: Telling these stories, these pay-for-play interviews while he's going on
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: DJ Vlad and Art of Dialogue and not talking to
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: me who called him is because I wasn't willing to
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: give him $ 7, 000.
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying?
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: I don't know if that was a going rate, but
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: I know somebody who said he would only do an
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: interview starting at $ 7, 000.
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: So, yeah.
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: I had wondered if a big part of this was,
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: because he beat colon cancer, which is.
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: Pretty.
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: See, this is the part where I don't know if
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: he's a liar or not. Because in his book, Compton
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: Street Legend, he talks about he beat cancer already, When
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: I talked to him in 2019 for just a few minutes,
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: he said he had cancer. And then they're saying he's
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: had cancer sometime.
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: I mean, cancer comes back. So I don't know.
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: Maybe he's dealt with it a few times. But colon
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: cancer don't seem like one of those ones you hear about.
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: I beat colon cancer twice.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: Not a lot of people win that one. It's like
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: him and Eric Davis.
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, right.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: Oh, shit.
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: That's right.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Not a lot of people win that one. But
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: I had wondered if they.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: Hey, man, that being in touch with your mortality put
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: you in touch with a lot of things. But I
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: thought that maybe he just got out here to ramble
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: just because he didn't think he had long left, whatever
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: it is. Who knows what kind of guilt that you
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: get riddled with at that point. All your partners is dead, basically.
• 31:59
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: You just talk about you try to cruise the block, looking, looking,
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: looking for middle aged crips. That don't you know, that's
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: not really a thing.
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: So, it's interesting.
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: So, you don't watch none of these Vlad clips with
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: Bob James and none of them folk, huh?
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, like, I can't say I haven't seen any.
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: But, like, not to the place where I can tell
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: you what was going on. I can remember them.
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: If Keefie D says that he has any remorse about this,
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: I know he lying about that.
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: I know he's lying about it.
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: I mean, because the ways in which he's described his
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: involvement in it is so callous and so shockingly inhumane.
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: That there's just no... I can't see how he would
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: have flipped on that. And that was up till recently.
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: Like in 2023, he's given... This is one of the
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: interviews that got his ass busted and they made them
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: charge him. And they said, you know, shit, if I
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: got to go to jail, I got to go to jail.
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: It ain't like I'm scared of jail. You know what
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: I'm saying?
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: So he.
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: I feel like he really... really had that gangster ethos
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: in that way. It was like, yo, man, it was
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: some gang shit. Tupac got involved in it. He had
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: no business in it. And business got handled. I mean,
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: if he felt guilt about Tupac, just imagine how much
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: other guilt he would have to feel.
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: It would be tough to go on with his life,
• 33:09
  Speaker 4: I'd imagine.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: Well, so that's why I think you make a fair point.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: But that's why I can't help wondering if there's some.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: But he's like, if I got to go to jail,
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: I just got to go to jail. Hey, man, don't
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: nobody be wishing jail upon themselves?
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: It was such self-destructive behavior that it makes me question
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: whether there's a subconscious desire for some level of punishment
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: and immolation in the course of this, because otherwise it
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense. But where I started on this,
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: he's basically always claimed that he did it because Diddy
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: said he'd give him $ 100, 000. in order to do it,
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: and that Diddy never gave him the $ 100, 000.
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: No, a million dollars.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: A million dollars, that's right.
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: He put a million on the heads of Park and Big,
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: he called him Big CEO, Suge, allegedly.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: And so it.
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: Was $ 500, 000 for one, $ 500, 000 for the other.
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: And the go-between was.
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: This Harlem businessman, drug entrepreneur named Zip.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: And he's the guy that was a go-between, so- I mean,
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: you mentioned that like Keefy D and the Crips had
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: done security for Puffy in California when they would perform
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: out there.
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: And so they had a relationship.
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: Oh, I'll just say this real quick because I don't
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: know if people ever know this and I'd love to
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: talk about it.
• 34:26
  Speaker 4: Do you remember the Usher Can You Get With It video?
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: Vaguely.
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: That's his debut song. His debut song for Usher comes out.
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: Devante Swing produces it. And there's a low rider in
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: the car that Usher is performing on. He's like laying
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: on it as he's running, driving down the street.
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: That's Keefy D's low rider.
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: Oh, wow.
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: That's Keefy D's low rider. So they did have some
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: sort of a relationship, okay? And the night of the
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: boxing fight in Vegas, people find out, okay, Pac and
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: Suge and the other guys from Death Row were involved
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: in this beatdown. And somehow Zip is in Vegas that night,
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: runs into Keefy and his crew, hands him the gun,
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: this is according to Keefy, hands him the gun and says,
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: tonight's the night. This is the time to do it.
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: And then a few hours later, Tupac is dead, okay? So,
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: I mean, it depends on what you want to believe, dog.
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: But Keefy D has told that story over and over
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: and over again.
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: And he told the.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: Story in his- In his proffer.
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: In his proffer, right?
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: So he couldn't get, I mean, if he was lying
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: to those cops, he really would have exposed himself to
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: more risk. So that's something that he said, thinking that
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: stuff was never going to get out. Keefy D never
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: expected any of this to give out when he made
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: that deal. But when he made the deal, the guy
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: that was the leading detective on the case left the
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: force because he got forced out. People accused him of
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: doing some shady shit. He wrote a memoir, and that's
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: when all this stuff got exposed. And Keefy D was like, well, damn, man,
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: you put me at risk out here. People know that
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: I did it. I wasn't trying to say that. And
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: so then he was like, you know what? I better
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: start trying to make money off of it then. Like,
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: I'm the only one that has a story, so let
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: me be the one. Let me be the one to
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: tell that story.
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: Can you imagine a world where Diddy got an answer
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: for this?
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: No. No. There's not enough evidence connecting him to it.
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: You just have to believe Keefy D. Zip is dead.
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: Zip has been dead for a few years now. Um.
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: And I don't think anybody has the desire to fight
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: him in court over that, right? And that would be,
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: and that's, that, well, I don't think anybody has the
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: desire to fight him on that. The detective, and I'll
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: just say, Detective Greg Kading, he used to work for
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: the LAPD. He's the one that wrote the book that
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: exposed Keefie D. And he says, I don't think they
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: really want that. He says, it just would be too hard.
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: The evidence is too circumstantial. He doesn't believe that they're
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: going to do it, which is unfortunate because there are
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: a lot of people involved in this, that that's what
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: they're hoping for.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: Look, I told you when I was watching that documentary.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: About Diddy, Netflix joint, I had never considered the possibility
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: that Diddy had Tupac killed.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: Until I watched that.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: And I was like, boy, this makes a pretty compelling argument,
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: one might say, that Diddy was there.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: My favorite part is.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: One of my buddies in the business I've known now
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: for over 25 years, And he said he thought it
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: was funny because the documentary basically makes the argument that
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: Diddy was jealous of Tupac because Biggie was so cool
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: with Tupac. And he said he had never considered, he
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: thought it was hilarious that I think Diddy was no
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: kind of gangster, so I think he did that.
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: But then you raise the possibility he's just being messy.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, yeah, I can see it. Yeah,
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: that's all it took. I was like, oh, he's just messy.
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: OK, cool. Got it.
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: And, you know, so there's a couple of things of
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: this one. You're right, because the whole time that this
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: East Coast, West Coast beef is going on.
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: I'm thinking, man, why are they messing with Puffy like that, bro?
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: Like Puffy goes on stage at the Source Awards and
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: he's like, I'm a positive brother.
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: I bring people together. And, you know, this is after
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: Suge Knight has done that.
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: You know, if you don't want to executive produce a
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: dance and all in the videos, you and all in
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: the videos come to death row. So Puffy is like,
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: I'm not even trying to engage in this nonsense. I'm
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: not trying to fight with these dudes. They fight with
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: me while they fighting with me. But man, it went
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: really deep. And there are more people that have died
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: around this involving Puffy and Suge than Tupac and Biggie.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the dude Wolf in the club in Atlanta?
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Big Jake. Big Jake.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: Oh, Big Jake, yeah.
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: Big Jake, that's Suge's partner, who was a blood, who
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: got killed, I believe it was at a Jermaine Dupri
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: party in Atlanta, and he gets killed by Suge, and
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: he gets killed by.
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: Puffy's guy, Wolf.
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. Wolf did it, and Suge watched it, right?
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: And he blamed Diddy on it. He blamed Diddy immediately.
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: He's like, you did this. You're responsible for this. And
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: Diddy's like, I ain't had nothing to do with this.
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: So he was in the middle of that. And so
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: I was like, okay, it's not reading about that. But
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: then have you ever read Mark Curry's book?
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: Yes, I have. Dancing with the Devil. Man, Mark Curry
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: is an interesting person, bro. Yes, he is.
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: He is a very interesting dude. And I had the
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: pleasure of talking to him for two hours once about
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: this case.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: You thought it was going to be 30 minutes, didn't you?
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: I thought it was going to be 30 minutes. He
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: seemed like that tight.
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: Oh, he told, I'll never forget this. said, you want
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: me to spook you out, man? I'm going to spook
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: you out. And he just takes a long drag off
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: of me. And he told me some shit that spooked
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: me out. But when you hear Mark Curry, and he
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: makes the point that all these people that have been
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: associated with Puffy, they always leave off worse for him.
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: Either strung out like Craig Mack, Black Rob. Black Rob
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: was strung out, ended up on crack, ended up dying
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: way before time.
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: So it was just like, he's like, yo.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: Yo, G-Dep walked himself into the police station and confessed
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: to a cold case murder.
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: Right, bro.
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: I mean, dog, it is believed that Mase left hip-hop
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: for church. He became a pastor because of all the
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: stuff he had been connected to. It was the only
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: way he knew to get away from him. So there's
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: so many people that he's done wrong, fucked over, that
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: are afraid of him.
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: I was like, oh, okay.
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: I'm not saying that he did it, but Keefy D's accusations,
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: the way he constructs the story, it's compelling.
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: I ain't gonna lie, I'm one of them people. I
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: was hoping this would get Diddy on that one. Because,
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: you know, hey, man. Look, man, if you were responsible
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: for him having Tupac killed, I'd kind of like you to.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: Go to jail.
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: Well, you know, the other piece of it is that
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: I mean, I guess somebody could technically go for, I mean,
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: I'm trying to think of Biggie because I was talking to,
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: the way this all gets started is that they were
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: looking into who killed Biggie and they believe that that
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: guy's dead. Poochie, I think is the guy's name. Poochie
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: is allegedly the guy that killed him. And I'm like,
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: do you think anybody would ever be held accountable for that?
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: Because it's.
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: Fine that we've pinned somebody with blame for the Tupac thing.
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: But the thing is, is that to.
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: Bring actual closure to this whole thing, It's like, let's
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: find everybody that was involved for the deadliest beef.
• 41:22
  Speaker 4: Well, is it the deadliest beef in hip-hop history?
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: I mean, I guess it depends on what you think
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: of some of that Chicago shit involving King Von.
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: And Lil Durk.
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: But it's like the most infamous beef in history, and
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: that one is probably never going to be adjudicated.
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: And so I'm like, I just....
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: I kind of had gotten to the point, and I
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: said at the end of that season of the podcast,
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: that this will never be solved. And so the idea
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: that Keefie D... actually ended up having to go to
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: prison is sort of jarring in that sort of retrospect.
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: And it's really interesting that it did seem like it
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: was never going to be solved. And we just figured
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: the police was never going to try to get to
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: the bottom of it.
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: But that's where police becomes a broad term, right?
• 42:02
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: Because it seemed like there were police officers who tried
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: to get to the bottom of it.
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: However, capital T, capital P, the police. That's why it's interesting.
• 42:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah.
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: You know, so one of the stories I heard, and
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: this is from a reporter in Las Vegas that was
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: pretty connected with the police. She said one of the
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: reasons that they thought that Vegas did not want to
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: solve that case is because they didn't want to have
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: a murder trial with a bunch of rappers there in
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: the middle of them trying to do a tourism boost.
• 42:32
  Speaker 4: And I was like, I mean, yeah, I guess.
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: I mean, keep it in mind that this is around
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: the time that Las Vegas is pitching itself as family
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: friendly Las Vegas.
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: That's right. That's right. Yeah. Late 90s. They really needed.
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: And, you know, I think the idea that black folks
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: went to Vegas, at least to me, you tell me
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: if I'm wrong, was sort of new. I feel like
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: Mike Tyson was one of those people that was like,
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: It brought a lot of black celebrities to Vegas.
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: It started becoming more of a thing. But am I
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: wrong on that?
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: I think that we have to remember and think of
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: this in the context of the West Coast, which is
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: where neither of us is from. But it's been a
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: four-hour drive and a 35-minute flight for a long time
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: for a lot of people. Let me think about it.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: By then, Suge Knight already has a club in Las Vegas.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: So I can't say it was but so new.
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: That's right. That's right. That's right.
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: Well, it seemed like it was going to be the spot.
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: And I mean, that's where Keefie D lived. Keefie D
• 43:33
  Speaker 4: lived in the Las Vegas metro area.
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: And for people that are not familiar with this area,
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: like you said, it's a four-hour drive, not a very
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: hard drive. It's a desert, though. But Nevada doesn't have
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: state income tax, bro. And it's a much more affordable
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: place to live. So a lot of people that used
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: to live in California, California used to be a lot
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: blacker than it was. The LA area used to be
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: a lot blacker than it was. A lot of them
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: people moved to Nevada because it's cheaper over there. It's
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: easy to live out there.
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: And history in Nevada, man. Ain't no rules, really. Like Nevada,
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: some outlaw shit, man.
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: That's just, they just made a decision that we go,
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: it's going.
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: To be wild here.
• 44:09
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 44:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I mean, it's, I read, I was
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: reading when I did a story on a boxing ref,
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: I mean, that kind of got drummed out the industry
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: years ago. And I read a history of like how
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: boxing ended up in Vegas. And it's like, I mean,
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: the people that had to bring it there and had
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: to get a cut to make.
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: That work out, man, you know?
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: Like, if you were a gangster or you wanted to
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: get into some shit, man, Vegas wasn't that hard.
• 44:32
  Speaker 4: You know, what did DJ Quik say? He didn't say
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: it about Vegas, but Vegas is just like comedy. You
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: know what I'm saying? Vegas has got its parts.
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: And so, yeah, I mean, you know, people move from LA,
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: go over there, and they could continue their lives shockingly
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: similarly to the way they lived in LA.
• 44:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: Last thing I want to hit on as I look
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: back on the thing with Tupac, and again, it's very
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: interesting for us having been teenagers when this happened, now
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: that we're looking back at this very much as grown men.
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: And I remember my sister said this at the time,
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: which is interesting because she is the same age as Tupac,
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: but she was just like.
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: He's so young.
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: He was 25 years old when he died.
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: Biggie was what, 24? 24, that's right.
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: 24 years old.
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: When they died. Like to me, they seem like adults.
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: Like I didn't, I didn't, I didn't have, I mean,
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: Dubac's 10 years older than me, right?
• 45:26
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: Not only did they seem like adults, it seemed like
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: they had been famous for a long time.
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: Right. Biggie Smalls is like Jimi Hendrix in the sense
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: that he was famous for three years.
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: Three, 94 to 96.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Right.
• 45:37
  Speaker 4: And then that second album comes out in 97.
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: So yeah, so I'm thinking like 1991, which is when
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: Tupac comes out as a rapper. And I want to
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: say Juice comes out the next year. Like he films
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: Juice in 91 and 92. I mean, that's not even
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: five years of celebrity. Just think about how much life
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: he crammed in those few years, bro. Like the stories
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: they tell about him, like Biggie tells a story about
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: going to bring Tupac a gun at a hotel in
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: New York and Madonna steps out of the bedroom. You
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: know what I'm saying? Tupac was living that kind of shit.
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: He had that kind of life going on.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: He wasn't even that famous yet.
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: Not even that famous yet. Not even that famous. But
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: it was inevitable. And you tell me this. His charisma
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: made him seem more famous than he actually was. He's
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: truly one of them people that if he's in the room,
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: he takes over the room.
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like he earned it.
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: Have you seen.
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: I think we had it in one of our group chats.
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: The clip of Inspector Deck... Talking about how mad he
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: would be. That, like, he got to come out here epitomically,
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: psychotic philosophies and hypotheses.
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: And all dirty bastard ain't got to do none of it.
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: None of it.
• 46:50
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: Recognize I'm a fool and you love me. And then
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: the whole house break down. And he's just like, what
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: are you talking about? Like, that's Tupac. Tupac ain't even
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: got to do nothing.
• 47:01
  Speaker 4: Man, I mean, yeah, man, look. I'm no longer going
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: to say that.
• 47:06
  Speaker 3: because there was a time when I was a little
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: bit snooty about Tupac's rap, okay?
• 47:10
  Speaker 4: But Tupac made people feel shit, man.
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: Tupac could rap his ass off. You go back and
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: listen to that stuff now, he could rap.
• 47:17
  Speaker 4: Absolutely.
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: And I mean, there's something, I mean, every celebrity wants
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: to inspire this sort of loyalty that Tupac, I'll never
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: forget at TCU my freshman year, a dude got a
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: tattoo of the cross on his back all the way
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: across It was, I mean, I assumed that was because
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: of Tupac, because Tupac was the first person I'd ever.
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: Seen with anything like that. And you know what I'm saying?
• 47:42
  Speaker 4: So it was just like, he was that influential.
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: He could make people do things they had never ever
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: considered doing before, bro. And so I didn't, I don't
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: think I understood that at the time, but man, I mean,
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: my wife don't care about rap. Tupac is her favorite artist, bro.
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying? Like she don't give a
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: shit about rap, but her and her friends, from Tamal
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: Pius High School in Mill Valley, California, which is also
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: where Tupac went to high school his final year of
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: high school, by the way. But it's one of them.
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: It's like it appeals to her. It appeals to dudes
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: that are in the hood. It appeals to my homeboy
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: who I play football with who had the cross on
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: his back. Like he really spoke to a lot of
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: different people. And that's just, I mean, everybody wishes they
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: could do that. If you're in the content game, if
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: you're trying to reach an audience, you wish you could
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: inspire the sort of loyalty in people that Tupac did.
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I couldn't relate to the anger. My life was
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: just a little bit too good, right? I'm being perfectly honest,
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: but the people that can relate to the turmoil, the
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: people that can relate to that set of emotions that
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: he was so able to channel, it's different to.
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: Them, man.
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: You know, Bo, because this is the funny thing you're
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: saying about that, because I don't even think people know
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: the half of how hard Tupac's upbringing was. Like, it
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: wasn't like hood upbringing. It was like, yo, his mother
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: was on crack. He had nowhere to sleep.
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and like the embers of the revolution, which is
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: a whole nother set of things.
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that they destroyed the Black Panther Party. And, you know,
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: many people are broken at the end of this. And,
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: you know, Afeni had to get out of prison and everything.
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: And Tupac was had in prison, like he was birthed
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: in prison.
• 49:16
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: And so he went through a life of like deprivation.
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: It wasn't, it had nothing to do with violence. It
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: was just a life of deprivation and unwantedness and searching
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: for belonging that so many people, he didn't even really
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: get a chance of touching that in his music. Like he,
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: you know, he hinted at it, but he never even
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: really got a chance to talk about it in his
• 49:37
  Speaker 3: music because that's how young he was.
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: And now it's done, right? Like as a story that
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: we really.
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: Talk about, I think there's almost like as an immediate
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: sort of way that there's a big bow tied on
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: it by having a level of conviction. And I'm thinking
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: about it, like as we talk about it, we've been
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: here for other artists to emerge, right? Like we've seen
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: a whole 30 years of guys come around. Like it's
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: not even nostalgia talking. You could argue maybe that certainly
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: they've been bigger stars than Tupac was. And I would
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: argue also some of them couldn't have been the stars
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: they were without Tupac in the first place. Like 50
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: Cent don't hit the same if you don't have Tupac
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: like warming people up to the whole idea of that
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: mythos and legend.
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: But they're getting shot.
• 50:25
  Speaker 4: It's cool.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But yeah, but it's still surviving it, right? Like
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: there's something to that.
• 50:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: But there's never been anything.
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: There's not been anybody since him nearly as captivating like
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: in that same time Kurt Cobain dies in 94 or
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: 95 I want to say 95 yeah and you go
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: back and like watch those clips I'm like oh okay
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: I see what's going on here right it is it
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: is captivating to a different group of people but I'm
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: like oh okay right I can kind of see what's
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: going on here yeah Tupac was captivating in a way
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: like I don't think anybody needs to understand it oh
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: it was just a completely different energy that surrounded him.
• 51:04
  Speaker 4: Bro, Tupac smashed every interview, man.
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: The clips of him on MTV talking to Tabitha Soren
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: or whoever else, he kills it. He's just so entertaining, man. Man,
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: you will watch videos. There's an old famous movie actor
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: named Heather Hunter who was.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: In the video. Give that description again.
• 51:30
  Speaker 4: Old famous movie actor. Film.
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: She did films. And she was in the How Do
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: You Want It video with Tupac, okay? And apparently, that
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: video set is legendary. Like, Jodeci is there, and they
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: were known for being crazy on the video set. Tupac
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: had Heather Hunter and some of her other friends from
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: the movie industry.
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: Who also had, perhaps, first and last names with the
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: same letter.
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: Exactly, yes. Alliteration is very important in that particular field.
• 52:02
  Speaker 4: Or could be.
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: And they interviewed Heather Hunter about this and she started
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: crying while she was talking about Tupac. It's not like
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: they had some 10 year friendship or anything like that,
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: but she started crying. And they've interviewed Rosie Perez about
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: him taking her out once and Jasmine Guy, all these-
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: Rob Markman, Jr.
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: Tupac got shot and went to Whitley Gilbert's house.
• 52:27
  Speaker 4: Rob Markman, Jr.: He recovered there. That's where he recovered,
• 52:30
  Speaker 4: at Whitley Gilbert's house.
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: Jasmine Guy wrote Afeni Shakur's, helped co-write Afeni Shakur's memoir.
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: Oh, wow.
• 52:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So it's like, again, Tupac didn't know these people
• 52:41
  Speaker 4: that long. Like he didn't even.
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: I did an episode of A Different World.
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: I did an episode of A Different World, bro. And
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: you were on my movie set, on my video set.
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: And all these people have like this, they felt like
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: they'd been touched, man. They felt like they were bringing
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: the presence of somebody that, was really important.
• 53:02
  Speaker 4: Who else does that? Drake don't do that, right?
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: Who else?
• 53:06
  Speaker 4: Who's come close? Would it have to be Drake?
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: Well, the thing is, though, I would say no, but
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: the thing I think that makes that interesting in that comparison.
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: Tupac was so organic.
• 53:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: Drake is very much so manufactured and tweaked. It's the
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: most deaf thing. So many skews. So many skews.
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: It's funny you say that because if you look back
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: at some of the videos of Tupac from when he's
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: 17 years old, 18 years old, now he's got the
• 53:40
  Speaker 3: Panther spirit. You know what I'm saying? He's on his
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: pro-black shit. But also, you could argue that Tupac was
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: a little effeminate.
• 53:47
  Speaker 4: At times, right? At that age.
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: And that when he lands the movie Juice, anybody that
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: was on that set and around him in their time,
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: a lot of people think that he just could not
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: let go of the role he played in that movie,
• 53:59
  Speaker 3: which was Bishop, who's a dude who wows out and
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: starts killing all his friends, right?
• 54:04
  Speaker 4: And he never recovered from that. And so if you
• 54:07
  Speaker 4: believe that, as some people do, is that really true
• 54:11
  Speaker 4: to who he was? I don't know. But he was.
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: A great actor.
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: I guess what I mean by organic in this sense.
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: He did not create a persona for the purpose of
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: selling records. Even if it is, hey, I went and
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: played this role and then I became this role, that
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: is an organic development within the life and progression of
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: the person that we're talking about.
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: This was.
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: And this is the interesting thing also, like we're talking
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: about white people getting out here and selling his rap.
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: That's fine.
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: But the images were absolutely created by the people themselves
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: that were involved in it. And so with him, it's
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: very difficult to find a big time rapper after him
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: that wasn't very explicitly commodified.
• 54:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: He existed as a commodity.
• 55:01
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: It's funny because it's not like white people had a
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: real chance to like make a lot of money off
• 55:06
  Speaker 3: him either.
• 55:07
  Speaker 4: At that time. I mean, Tupac's family is not rich, man.
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: I mean, his estate was worth a lot, and they've
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: gotten some money out of that, but it ain't like when...
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: This always makes me sad, because I lived in the
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: Bay when this happened. When Afeni Shakur passed away several
• 55:23
  Speaker 3: years ago, it was on a houseboat in Sausalito. And
• 55:27
  Speaker 3: for a lot of people, you hear a houseboat, and
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: you think, oh, lay dog, Sausalito? That shit must have
• 55:33
  Speaker 3: been beautiful.
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: Nah, bro.
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: There's another part of the house built area in Sausalito
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: where that's just sometimes where people had to live because
• 55:40
  Speaker 3: it's cheaper than living on land. And that's the part
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: where Feeney Shakur was, bro. And so again, he didn't
• 55:46
  Speaker 3: even get a chance to get wealthy. He didn't even
• 55:48
  Speaker 3: get to lift his family to another layer of generational wealth.
• 55:52
  Speaker 4: So you're right.
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: I mean, when you're talking about him being an organic person,
• 55:57
  Speaker 3: he was very young, so he does something.
• 56:00
  Speaker 4: He gets into it like the rest of us.
• 56:02
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 56:02
  Speaker 4: And that's it.
• 56:02
  Speaker 3: We wouldn't say that we were fake because we did
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: something and got into it. And that, if that's what
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: Tupac story was, he did the Bishop thing.
• 56:10
  Speaker 4: He did that.
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: He got around should, and all of a sudden he
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: wanted to be, you know, be cool with the bloods.
• 56:15
  Speaker 3: I mean, those are things that actually happened in his
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: life and what he may have made the wrong decision
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: by trying to inhabit that lifestyle. Certainly the bloods part,
• 56:23
  Speaker 3: but it doesn't mean that it meant that he was
• 56:25
  Speaker 3: so empathetic and he wanted to feel things, man. He
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: wanted to be a part of things. And, uh, People
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: definitely wanted to have him around.
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: His is a memoir that I would have read, and
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: I don't typically want to read nothing about child's lives.
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: That one would have been the coldest. It would have
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: also probably had some amazing fables.
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: In it here and there.
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: His bodyguard wrote a book about Tupac, and the names
• 56:54
  Speaker 3: of the people that he allegedly had sex with, Crazy.
• 56:59
  Speaker 3: Like people that are walking around today that are, you know, whatever,
• 57:02
  Speaker 3: like crazy, crazy shit.
• 57:05
  Speaker 4: So Tupac was out there, bro. Like he really was.
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: Getting it in.
• 57:10
  Speaker 4: And I mean, man, you know, I mean, everybody loved Tupac, dog.
• 57:16
  Speaker 4: Everybody loved Tupac.
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: And he wasn't even that tall.
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: Joel Anderson, check him out at the Ranger, Ranger tailgate,
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: press box.
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying? Go ahead and do your little,
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: do your little whatever.
• 57:28
  Speaker 4: Oh, yeah, what's up?
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, raise the roof. That's what's up, dog. People know it. Hey,
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: I think somebody told me Dante Moore raised the roof
• 57:38
  Speaker 3: after a touchdown this past week.
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: Don't tell me you're claiming credit for that.
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: Was raise the roof in the current mainstream? Had anybody
• 57:49
  Speaker 3: been talking about it before me? Things start, though, okay? Like, again,
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: and I said this at the time, You believe that
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: things come from on high, a top-down society, a celebrity.
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: I believe things happen organically from people at the ground level.
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: And you can have a lot of real influence. And
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: that's why I really think I'm not... I really do
• 58:11
  Speaker 3: think Luke Campbell and Razor Roof is awesome shit.
• 58:16
  Speaker 4: My Razor Roof ended up there. You know what I'm saying?
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us here
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: on The Right Time. We do this four times a week.
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: Ryan Brumley handed everything behind the scenes.
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: Thank you, sir.
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: Hit the voicemail line, 323-596-7767. Remember, follow the right time. Subscribe, like,
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: give us four stars, you might be Joel Anderson, and
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: I'll talk to you guys in a couple of days.
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: Take it easy. Go ahead and do your little thing again.
• 58:44
  Speaker 4: There you go. Catching on all around the world.
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: Dante Moore. That's right. This has been a Playmaker Production.