Latest / The Steep Stuff Podcast / Joseph Gray | Mountain Running's Greatest of all Time

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Joseph Gray | Mountain Running's Greatest of all Time · The Steep Stuff Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What's up, guys?
• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast.
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: I'm your host, james Lauriello, and today we're bringing you guys something special, something I've been promising for a really long time 2016 and 2019 World Mountain Running Champion.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: 23-time US National Champion, eight-time winner of the Mount Washington Road Race, five-time winner of the Pikes Peak Ascent.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: This man needs no introduction.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: The greatest of all time.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: None other than Mr Joseph Gray was kind enough.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: It was an honor and a privilege to be able to sit down and talk with him and have him on the Steep Stuff podcast.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: I hope you guys really enjoy this one.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: It was so special, it really meant a lot to me and I know Joe had a good time as well.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: It was good getting to shoot the shit and just spend a couple hours with him in the pod studio.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: So, without further ado, I hope you guys enjoy this one.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: None other than Joseph Gray.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: Hey guys, this special presentation of the Steep Stuff podcast is brought to you by Ultimate Direction.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: Born and raised in Boulder, colorado, ultimate Direction is your one-stop shop for all things mountain running, the industry leader in hydration solutions.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: It doesn't matter what you need, whether it be packs, vests or belts Ultimate Direction's got you covered.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: So, before the holidays, hop on over to ultimate directioncom and fill up your cart for the trail runner in your family.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: It's time.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: We are live Joseph Gray.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Steep Stuff Podcast, my friend.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: Hey, thank you for having me.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: Man, I'm honored to be here.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Oh, dude, it is an honor and a privilege of mine when I first came up with the idea to do this pod I don't know, people don't know this but you were originally the first person that I reached out to and was like oh, we got to do this and I'm happy we didn't do it right away, just because I had no skills at this.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: I didn't know what I was doing.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: So for someone like you, uh, it means a lot to me to uh, you know, know what I'm doing now or have an idea of it, so we could do this the right way when we finally have you on.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: Definitely.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: Hey and you know you deserve some roses, man.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: You've grown the platform.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: I've seen you at a number of places very quickly.
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: You know you were on the pod.
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: You created a pod for a couple of races I've done, and so you know.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: Congratulations, man.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: Oh, thanks.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: You've grown it pretty quick, so that's awesome, Appreciate that man.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like I said, honor and privilege.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: This is like I don't know if there was an A race.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: This is the A race.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: I appreciate that man.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: I appreciate it.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: Dude, how's your day going?
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: What's going on these days?
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: What's new?
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: Well, today, you know, kids are finally back in school, so no more snow days, at least for a little while.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: It looks pretty warm, at least we're going to get some melt here.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: But yeah, man, just being a dad dialing in on training now getting ready for some cross country, and yeah, man, excited for the next year and got a couple of projects in the works right now and trying to figure out you know this is kind of a stressful period of time too.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: I think there are a lot of professional athletes You're trying to do contract renegotiations and figure out the direction of your career, where you're going, who you're going to be with, and so, um, you know, all that fun stuff is going down as well.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: Oh you're, you're in that process right now for uh, for some yeah, for some sponsors and obviously I've signed continued with some other brands.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: But yeah, Um, yeah, just trying to figure out some of that as well.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: Very nice, man.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's crazy.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: It's a crazy time of year.
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: I, I, I mean I could be more transparent about this.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: Like I have, I'm on a one-year deal with Sportiva and a one-year deal with UD, so it's, it's every year, it's.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: Let's figure this out again.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, it'd be a we'll see what happens.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: But no, I, I, I feel your pain there, dude.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it can be a hassle.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you've been really busy lately with the cross-country stuff, man.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: I like how you pivoted from your I guess you could say the mountain racing season to cross-country.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: I saw you post something the other day.
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, are you doing like a series of these races or what are you doing with that?
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know the US.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: We don't per se have a lot of professional level cross country races outside of just championships.
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: So that's pretty much.
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: All I have access to is that I was a championship, it was the national uh masters 5k and then the next is a 10 K club.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: And then the next is a USA uh championship, or, uh, just the USATF uh cross country championship.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: So just just getting ready for those championships, that's about it.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: And then yeah it was.
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: It was just a quick pivot, I didn't know if I wanted to do it.
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: I, you know not to get like sentimental, but you know I lost a really good friend, kind of heading into pikes, in that.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: You know, mentally I was kind of exhausted and took a nice little break after that and started my season with the Team USA event in Italy and just kind of slowly getting back into it, I felt like I just needed some time away just to be quiet and just be with my family, and I appreciate that.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: For a little while and, um, you know, and cross country is always kind of like I would say it's probably my favorite.
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: Uh, and you know, getting back into that and starting to prepare for that again has been, um, really motivating and um, I don't know man, it's kind of gave me a new energy.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah so yeah, it was cool.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: Nice, are you starting to put the plans together for 2025?
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: racing like yeah, I am, I am, uh, you know.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: As you know, there's some races haven't announced yeah, yeah uh, dates and and even we don't know which races are going to be in which series quite yet and in full um, so I'm still waiting on some of that yeah but I mean, I know there's some definitely definite events that I'll be at yeah, I, I was interested with um and you could.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: You don't have to answer this.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: I was just kind of curious Um, cause now that we've got broken arrow will be the vertical race, which I know you traditionally from the vertical, like you usually.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: What was it A loon last year and stuff like that, and then, but it's also going to be soon a P, is it the classic red?
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: Soon to P yeah, soon to be classic.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which, what do you?
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: What do you?
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: Uh, what are you thinking?
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: man, man, that's, that's a tough one, I know because, oh, man, you know, mount washington is a race I like to do.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: Um, I need to see what the dates are going to be, you know, to know exactly, but I would love to to get to both of those you know qualifiers, just because I think we could have a good team.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: It could be a good year for us to potentially medal, um, and I would love to be a part of that, especially as a masters now.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, um, but definitely, uh, you know, I would love to do that broken arrow one.
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: I think that's um, they announced the date on that one.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like june 18th, 19th or something like that.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: It might be somewhere in that range I thought it was later no, I think it's later.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: I hope you're wrong.
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: I could be wrong something like that.
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: Right, I know I have to go out there.
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: I think we're going to be doing something with the podcast and I will probably raise something, but I just yeah, I think that'll be the.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: I mean because the broken arrow vertical has been traditionally last year was deep man.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: I was really impressed that, like Patrick and Phil Amon showed up, wamsley went, which I wasn't expecting that, and then, just like a whole slew, christian Allen.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: Yep, so it would be.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: Patrick was there.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: I forgot about that.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: Patrick.
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: He'll be back there again, I'm sure.
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised, especially so it's like man it's gonna be extra motivation you don't want to lose to somebody outside of your country.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: That's right at your own nationals, uh.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: So yeah, that'll be tough yeah, now for sure we'll talk about, talk about patrick fullmont later, because I think it's interesting.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: Uh, like the a basin race and stuff like that.
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: There's always fun stuff to banter about, yeah um well, dude.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: So one of the things I mean I feel like you don't need an introduction because everybody knows who joseph gray is, but for those maybe new or those that might not know a lot about the sport, maybe just give like a just a little synopsis on like your background a little bit, and I really want to know, like how you got into trail and stuff like that um, yeah, just background, um, or I guess, like accomplishment wise, just I've been on, you know, a number of uh team, usa teams representing the country and then, um, I've won 20 something.
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: Well, I had 23, so it was for nationals.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: So crazy and you know that's what I'm all about.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: I love competing at the highest level.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: I love competing across a multitude of genres, you know, whether it be cross country, road, ultra sky, whatever, I just love to compete and test myself against others and also, you know, challenge myself.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: I think I'm my biggest doubter.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: So you know, I like to kind of prove myself wrong here and there, look at the man in the mirror and prove him wrong.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: But yeah, that's one of the things I'm about kind of my past.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: But in terms of getting into trail running, I always bring up Simon Gutierrez.
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: He was kind of the first person to kind of even introduce the idea of mountain running to me and he talked me into coming.
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: You know, I was in Oklahoma finishing up track season and he was like you should try this race.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: And you know, and he introduced me to the sport, I came there and got humbled and but I really loved the experience and just fell in love with it right away.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: And you know, I moved back to Washington after I graduated and, you know, had a little bit more access to like trail type stuff not mountain per se and use what I had.
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: And I came back that next year or the next year and I made my first world team and I was just kind of hooked from there.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: You know that first experience when you're representing your country is like crazy and you know you're overseas.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: You see all these names in the sport, big names that you know have been there for many years before you.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: And yeah, man, it was.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: It was kind of eyeopener and very motivating to be around all that Surreal.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: I bet you know like Jonathan Wyatt and dudes like that.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was the you know.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: Jonathan was the man when I came into the sport for a number of years and even when I yeah, he won the year of my first world team.
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: He won in great fashion.
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, he was getting older at this point and he was the man.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: So just being there on the starting line with him and then having some time to be able to travel to some races with him and just kind of talk to him, that's so crazy.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: I was just talking to him.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: I told him, man, I really appreciated that how he could have just been like man, yo, stop asking me questions, get out of my face.
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: You know he could have really went a different way if he wanted to.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, got this young kid talking to him about the sport and he's trying to be focused on what he's doing, you know, and he's there with his wife and stuff and uh, you know we were in Norway a couple of times and you know he gave me a lot of tips, things you know just little things that he said to me that were very natural for him, and just seeing his, his way of thinking, his, his thought process about the sport and how he carried himself, it went a long way, because it's stuff that I still brings through my head today, some of the things he told me.
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: So it's yeah, man, those early years were very motivating, but a huge blessing to, you're in the right place at the right time.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: You meet some amazing people.
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know this.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: Uh, you never know.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: That's never promised, so it was pretty cool that's amazing, dude was did you was marco, was it um d gaspari as well?
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: Like was he in that?
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: Uh, like mix back at the time, because I know he was maybe a little bit older uh, yeah, marco was around.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: Um, uh, when did marco come in?
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: He's a little bit younger than jonathan, but not by much actually.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: He's maybe like two or three years younger than jono somewhere in there yeah, that's interesting.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: I always thought I was older.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: That's yeah, so it's.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: It's just interesting.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: You hear all these people that are legends in the sport you know, so I'm gonna start off with the first serious, serious question, Cause I, I, I, I throw this around a lot.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: Um, it's been voted unanimously.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: You are without a doubt one are, without a doubt, one of, if not the greatest, the goat.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: How does that feel to you?
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: Um, I mean to hear it.
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: You know, obviously I think anybody you know is a huge.
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: It's a blessing to to be in a sport long enough to accomplish enough for someone, to even even a random person, to think that you were.
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: That you know yeah some kid who doesn't even the sport.
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: If he came up to you and said it it's still.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: It's a huge accomplishment, so cool, but it's very it's a it makes you feel good, like you've done something.
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean and I don't take it for granted when people say that.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: You know, I hold myself to a standard and I think about that the fact that there are people who think you're the best.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: There are people who are motivated, inspired by you, so you can't just crap the bed or, you know, not be serious about training or be consistent or, um, not take a race serious, because there are literally people out there who think you're the best and they're aspiring to that.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: And so, yeah, I think it's motivating.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: It's just interesting because, like people listening to this podcast, it's really.
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: It's inspiring and interesting to me because at all things I do in life, like you want to be great.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: Right, most people, very few people, will achieve like that status where someone will say like, oh no, like that person was the greatest to ever do this or you know, and it's just, I don't know, it's such rare air to me and you don't meet too many people that like have achieved.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: You know, like you're, I don't know you can have the Lord, the LeBron slash, kobe slash, you know Jordan debate or the Babe Ruth of baseball, but like for our, our niche sport of mountain running, if you will, like that's I don't know.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: To me that's incredible and it's.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: Is that something you like?
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: Did it ever cross your mind?
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: Like at one point in time?
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: You're like, okay, I'm starting to think about legacy and I want to be the greatest at this.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: Or are you just more of one of those people that think about, okay, I'm just going to grind from race to race to race and just kind of stack that on?
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: Like, how does that?
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: How do you think about?
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: that I think they're one in the same.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: Both of those things right Like to be considered great in a sport.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: You probably had that mentality and you would probably have to have that for your entire career, because you have to stack accolades Like you can't just be someone who's getting you know, who's never really close to winning any major races, to ever get that kind of a thought.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: So it takes time, right.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: And then I think you start thinking about legacy after you've done it so much and people start noticing who you are and what you've done and they you get recognized.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: There are certain awards that you get recognized for, hall of fames, things like this and you start thinking, okay, you know, that is legacy, it's something I'm, maybe I'm chasing legacy now, like which is tied into a race right, like winning races is legacy.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: Technically it's history, and so they're kind of one in the same.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's just interesting now to see them start to stack on like Mount Washington and Pikes.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: You know I mean like congratulations on, obviously.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: You know I mean like congratulations on obviously.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: You know it was your eighth win at mount washington, yes, and then fifth at pikes, like you're.
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: That's mount rushmore for both historical races.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: It's so wild yeah, man so I got a question for you.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: When it comes to like sub ultra versus ultra, like, you're one of those people to me that, like I mean not just because I know you and I'm a giant fan of you and a friend of yours, but like I, I personally feel like you should be one of those people that have over a million followers on Instagram, whereas, like, there's certain Europeans that have, like, this crazy clout in the sport, and the only thing I can think of is that on the American side, we don't value sub ultra like we probably should.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: We tend to value ultra a little bit more.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: Why do you think that is?
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: um, to be honest, there's more marketing time wise in an ultra, right like, our races are really fast, they're really elite, and when you look at short races, it's really, uh, a small percentage of people who have the mentality to win and the ability.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: In ultra, things can go wrong, right Like I can go beat somebody by 10 minutes in a mountain race.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: You know, just a sub ultra mountain race.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: I could be an hour ahead of them in a hundred miler, yeah, and I start throwing up.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: You know, just because of the sheer time sugar being, almost, things can, just things outside of talent and ability can go wrong.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: And so it opens a door to a wider array of.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: Throughout my career, I've been able to win a lot of big races over time.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: It doesn't open the door for other people to get in and win races because my talent is allowing me, or my abilities are allowing me, to win all these races that maybe, if those were ultras, I would do half of those and there'd be 10 other people who won those other races that I didn't do.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: So, you know, I think it's more accessible, I think it's has a easier approach to performance, right Like?
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: I don't think the stress level is the same.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: You don't have as much time like in a sub ultra races.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: You don't have time to mess up a lot.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: You know you look at Loon.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: Last year it was the uphill championship.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: You know you look at Loon last year.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was the uphill championship.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: I felt like I ran a fairly good race.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: I didn't feel good.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: It came down to the last 400 meters before I took the lead to win the race.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: A lot of things didn't go well and it was like if that was an ultra I wouldn't have to worry, you know, for there'd be a lot of time where I didn't have to worry.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: But it's a high stress event.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: A lot of people don't like high stress, really hard output.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: You're running hard.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: You know I've done some alters.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: They get hard near the end, especially if you don't feel properly.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: But if you feel properly they're not that as hard.
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: Like in terms of like pushing yourself to being pain.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: You know like it's more of an aerobic pain.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: But you know, when I've done like some cross races and stuff, it's like shoot, we got a 4k to go.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: I feel like my legs are about to fall off.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: We're running hard and I'm buried.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: There's a billion people around me.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean.
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: It's like it's a very different type of racing and if I wasn't a professional athlete, I get it.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: I probably wouldn't dig that either.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: I'm out here just to have fun and a little adventure.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: Do a long race where I'm just out having fun, you know, like just Bollygagging.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: I'm not competing.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: So it's very stressful, like I get it, but I think also in the US right mountain running was very young.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: It was in its infancy, and in Europe it had been around for a while, around the time when it was going to kind of get starting to get popular, ultras also started to get popular, and so you know, in Europe the sub-ultra stuff was already really popular and really well-respected, and so you know two different worlds.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: And the other thing too, though, is like blew.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: My mind is yeah.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: I know like Western States hard rock that whole thing, like there's there's history there, but like Pikes is what?
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: Is it like the third or fourth, maybe the fifth somewhere, like that oldest marathon in the country and it's like started in the thirties and then like got bigger, like there was like a one-off race in the thirties.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: But what I'm trying to say is like there's a lot of history.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: Even Mount Washington, there's history there, you know, in a lot of these races.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: So I don't know.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: I hope that one of the things, as the sport continues to grow, both trail, ultra mountain, is that the sub ultra component will just, you know, kind of kind of get bigger and from an accessibility standpoint too, is like a lot of these races are at ski resorts and things like that, so they can have more people, it's not as much wait lists and things like that.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: So hopefully we can track more.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: The thing is it's, it's almost like it's like track and field, right, um and and in today's world, like a lot of the top marathoners are more known than some of the top track athletes, and it's it's not as an accessible sport.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: It's a very hard sport, high octane, not everyone can go out and do that type of stuff.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: and sub ultra is kind of in that same world, right, it's not as accessible to everybody yeah it's very difficult to be good at those types of events whereas, like, you can definitely work on your aerobic capacity and be good at an ultra.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: But that anaerobic slash, aerobic side is very difficult, over over, trained fast, is very difficult to achieve.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: Um, and I was going somewhere with this um.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: You know one of the biggest things I was going to say I think sub ultra, like people think it's not big, but it actually really is if you think about it right.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: It's not big in terms of marketing and media, and I could go on a whole long tangent on that.
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: I want to hear it.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of it has to do with.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, make a long story short.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: I think it's racism.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: Right, who is starting to dominate sub-ultra?
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: It's black athletes.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: Europeans have dominated for years.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: It was big right in Europe.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: Europe, africans, myself, we start dominating it.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: You don't see the media as, as a you know, paying as much attention to it as much.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they're focusing on alters.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: Now why?
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: Because there's no africans and black athletes really doing it.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: Because a lot of the top ones besides say myself, I'm not going to do it for other reasons but say some of these african athletes, there's no incentive to do it.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: There's no money in it.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: What am I going to go win a belt buckle?
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: What I'm going to do with a belt buckle?
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: I got a family to feed at home.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: I can't afford to do that type of stuff, and so you know there's that aspect of it.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: But if you look at in terms of like, from an objective standpoint, where the top athletes are, go look at the world championships.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: These are an amazing performances.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: People don't even understand it because no one is paying attention, no one's following it or covering it.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: Right and and, and some of these athletes too right.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: Maybe English isn't their strong suit, maybe they don't have a media team behind them.
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: Like you know, you see a lot of top European and American guys having, but so they can't maybe explain the story.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: Someone like yourself, who knows the sport real well, and myself who knows the sport well we don't explain the story.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: I've tried to explain to people.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: There's been years where, say, I won the world championship.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: People didn't understand what that performance really meant because it's a course that not a lot of people run.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: So then fast forward 2020, was it last year?
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: Last year, the world championships, that vertical race I told people.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: You know, out of all the championships, this was the cream of the crop and I'm not being biased at all but I'm like you, look at who was in that race, look at where they rank when they jump to other genres and those other athletes jumping in genres and meet in the middle.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: By and large these are the best athletes.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: I got fifth that year and I'm telling people, if you look at the times, what we ran.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: Petro Mamo, you know, in my opinion, you know, if the doping thing didn't happen and I get it, I don't know how much it really helped him and I don't think he's a doper per se.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of his earlier performance, I think he did them clean, if I had to really give my honest opinion, because he was an out of competition pool with me.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: So he's being tested and stuff.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: So you know, anyway, some of the stuff he had done was pretty amazing.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: The same course we used, right, petro had run was a very good time.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: If you've run that course, you know like this is legit, I got and we and we ran longer too.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: So at the world championships they had to add a loop, okay, because it was such a big field and that and still didn't help, because it's such a competitive field.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: People were, we were crowded, I don't know where I was, but there was a stream of people ahead of me and I went out.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: I thought I went out pretty good, but there was just it's a pile of people out there and, um, I ended up beating Petro's record on this record on the same course, with the addition, and I got fifth and I wasn't even in sight at the time of like patrick and all that that day and I thought I ran solid too.
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: You know, like I I for the build-up, that I had a shorter build-up.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: I had like a little niggle and um, but I thought I you know, I had a good build-up coming into it.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: Um, the the championship I had lost to a guy at our championship.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: I won our championship but I lost to the Canadian.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: And so everyone's like, oh, you know, they thought he was going to beat me and I was like, you know, I wasn't in that great of shape and that's me.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: Honestly, I didn't have the time, I wasn't ready, just period at the at that championship I still won the U S title, but he, he spanked me and I said you know, you give me another month of training, it'll look very different.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: And sure enough, you know it did.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: But I mean, again putting it in perspective, people don't understand how fast we ran that day because they don't know that course.
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: There's not a lot of history on it, you know.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: I think ultra you have a lot of people explaining specifically segments, pieces of the course.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: You have a lot of people really focusing on that data and it doesn't happen as much, I think, in sub-ultra.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: It's a good point and again.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: right, you would need the elites to explain it.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: A sub-elite person can explain some of those segments because it's such a long race that say, I can go do a training run on some of the Western courts, western states segments and I could probably get them or be very close to them on like Strava type stuff.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: But it would be very difficult for me to jump in some of these really historic sub-altra races and get anywhere near those segments.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, even if you add 10 years of my life right now and I'm kind of way slower than I am now I could still touch a lot of these segments and some of these big ultra ones and just a training run.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: But those days would be long gone for any of these sub-ultra ones.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: So I couldn't really explain it to you.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the comparison.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean.
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know what I mean?
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but uh, yeah, I think that's another big, you know reason, you know as to why I think ultra has maybe more eyes on it.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, attention media when you bring in the race topic too, and I I dude, I really agree with you and that's why I was really happy now we're starting to see at least in the golden trail side, and I even got to meet them this year.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: I was excited to like meet patrick and philomon, okay, and having, you know, just having more diversity in the sport, like something we lacked, like for years and years and years, that you've always been a large proponent of, which you know.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: It's just exciting to hear and see more and more folks getting I don't know just getting into the sport and rising to the top.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: But even that's still like not to like waste time.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: But even that's still kind of bogus because Patrick's legit.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: He should have a individual like contract.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: It shouldn't be through that group.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, how does that?
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: work.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: Do you, can you speak to that at all?
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: I don't really know there was a guy helped get.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: You know I was trying to help him with the visa processing.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: You know I was trying to help him with the visa process and you know kind of detach from that and so he got out of it and he shared a lot of stuff with me.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: But I mean to make a long story short.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: They're not getting what they deserve.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll put it that way.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: Oh, dude, they should be making like.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: You know Patrick's?
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's good.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's very good, yeah, good, yeah, he's not getting anywhere near what he should, considering what I've seen him do in a couple races.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah you know I met him at cirque brighton and obviously he's banked my ass, but like it was just so, it was like poetry in motion watching him run dude like he's a tough guy, yeah strong yeah, so yeah, one of the things back to competition that I really want to dive into is that john aziz had said it to me when I had him on the pod, and I know John pretty well, and one of the things he just like spoke so highly of about you is that you were just like a master tactician when it comes to races.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: Like you, you know.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: Like you know, not only you know who's coming out, but you know, like, what they're going to do, you know who to draft off of.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: Like you're just like, like I don't know to be the greatest.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: I feel like that's one of the things that you would need to have is to be able to look at a field, dissect them and know what to do and how to do it.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: Have you always been that way, or is that something you kind of like an acquired skill?
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: Probably.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, basketball was kind of my first sport.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: Um, really loved boxing too.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: So two sports that you need to know a little bit about what's coming your way specifically.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: You know, in basketball, right, you can be an extremely talented team.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: Come in there with a plan.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: Oh, we just we don't even need to run plays.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: Just show me, give me a top, you know screen to top of the key and we, good Like you, don't take it serious.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: You go against a team who's fundamentally sound and has a lot of different plans, and they a don't work, we go a, b, b don't work, we go to a C.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: They study their opponents, they know exactly what to do.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: Oh, you guys don't have a good guard.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: You know your guard.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: Your one and two are not good under pressure.
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: We're going to full court pressure the entire game.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: You guys are going to have way more turnovers than you're used to mentally.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: You're going to be mentally distraught by halftime and you guys are gonna play like complete trash.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: You just need to know what you're going to be up against.
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: The same with running.
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: It's like if I know you race a certain way, or I know the course and I can tell how fast I'm running, I know where I'm at, like even when we were at Loon, I knew from how hard we were running and the pace and the weather and whatnot.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: I was like I think I told John, I was just like yo, chill, chill, chill, chill, don't make a mistake here, because it will feel very different in about 15 minutes.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: And yeah, man, it was.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: I think you have to know a little bit about what's coming.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's just so interesting to me.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, john, he's good people, though I love.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: John.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: John dude, I had him on.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: I don't think I put it on the podcast.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: I think I cut it out.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: Because, you know he's an aerospace engineers.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: He's a.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: He's a brain.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: I think I asked him if we went to the moon and he was so offended by that question Podcast over man, I'm out.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: It was so funny, dude yeah.
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: So you said boxing.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: It's funny you say that Cause like I.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: Can you believe Tyson's going to fight this week against what was it?
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: Jake Paul kid?
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: I don't want to see that Same man.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: It's 60 years old.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: What are we doing here?
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: I just.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: I mean, it sounds like his health isn't in line.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: I'm like I love Tyson too, but you know, if they have a no knockout clause and I don't know.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: No, they just announced it.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: You can knock out.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: You can knock him out.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: He got rid of the claws.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, that could be better for Tyson, because he does look good.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: Now, if you stretch, is it three-minute rounds.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: It is three-minute rounds.
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: I think it's three-minute rounds.
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: I think, it's no no no, I bet you it's not.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: I bet it's two-minute rounds.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: I just put it.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: I literally like before you came's going to make him look really bad in the later rounds just because his fitness probably isn't.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: And it never has been really.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: And even in his prime.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: But if they have the knockout, no knockout, or if they can do the knockouts like man Tyson's, his combos are lethal and I don't think Jake Paul has the footwork to deal with that.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: No um, you gotta have good footwork when you're dealing with someone like tyson tyson's the he got some crisp hooks man both hands he's a powerhouse.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: He just has so much power behind it's.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: You know what?
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: It's not even the power like.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: I don't look at him as he has power per se.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: It's the precision yeah they're very clean.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: You know, like man, even when I did some sparring right, you would be sparring somebody who's really strong, like they can thump and uh, but they don't, they don't, they're never on target.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: It's wild.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: And when they throw wild they end up hurting their arm.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: You know they.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: They hurt themselves two, three rounds later.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: It has no pop on it yeah tyson's crisp, his fit like his stamina is what is the reason he loses the pop, but those first two rounds.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: If I was jake paul, scared to death.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: So this is what it is.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: It's knockouts are permitted.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: Sanctioned pro bout.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: Uh, eight, eight, two minute rounds, oh, yeah, and 14 ounce clubs.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: I think jake's in trouble dude oh my god, 14 ounces too.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he gonna.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: He'll have some pop-up, there's gonna be some fire coming up.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, I mean even an old tyson I would be terrified of.
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, he's still.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: I mean, he's still very sound man, his footwork is still really good.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: Um hey, but no disrespect though, jake, jake's an athlete.
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a very good athlete.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: Uh, honestly, I think he's in the wrong sport.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: I, if I was him, him and his brother should go to MMA.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I could see that, cause they're solid on the mat.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and now they're both pretty solid standup game too.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: So, and it might be more well.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: There's more money in boxing.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, jake's doing the right thing, brother should do MMA though.
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, logan, I can see that.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, do you follow MMA at all?
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: Not as much, but.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, I know you know, I know.
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: Got an idea what's going on?
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, a little bit.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: Oh man, big Mighty Mouse fan, he's like oh no, no, I do, did follow him.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: He's not really fighting that much now he's retired, love him I loved him.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's from washington, didn't he?
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: I think so yeah, I think he's from, I think he went to the high school down the street.
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: For me that's yeah, I'm pretty positive, that's crazy he's a little dude, dude.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: He's like shorter than me, he's like five, three, five, four people who are built for violence, like yeah they were born to do violent stuff.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: He's one yeah that's for sure.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: That's for sure.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: I mean, I saw him.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: Uh, you know, I used to follow muay thai a little bit and um, what's his name?
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: Rotang wrote.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: I can't remember his name.
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: Dude is a bad bad man and he fought him and I thought when, when they announced it, I was like I think that's a bad idea yeah and, but they did like a well, I know what you're talking about a one round mu tie and dimitri's put, put it on a man dude, he's, he's a goat, I mean, like a lot of people wildly consider him the best expression of mixed martial arts.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no, uh, there's no conversation, and this, this is this is the parallel between sub ultra and that weight class.
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: it's like there's just like not enough people in that weight class per se, so it never got gigantic, which sucks, you know, not enough people in that weight class per se, so it never got gigantic, which sucks, you know, not enough eyes.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: That's the one thing that does suck about boxing, like having kind of pay attention to both, and I'm a fan of both.
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: I see I can't help but compare them.
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, think, like dang, they got four sanctioning bodies.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: They can hide from one another.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: You can move up classes if someone's dangerous.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: I'm like in our sport.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: You know, if I'm going to the mountain champs they're not going to be like oh, you know you won because you're 180 pounds.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: You know you're going against everybody.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: Doesn't matter.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: A championship.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: It's one championship.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: You don't get to go switch to a different sanctioning body.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: It's like you got to go into the lion's den, yeah yeah, dude, and that's just so.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: That's another crazy thing too is like one of the things I think that's like under under discussed about the sport is like ultra.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: You kind of have an idea of who's who, but like, when it comes to these, like I don't know whether it's a national change for nationals race or something like, let's say, like sunupi for a qualifier, dude, everybody who's to these races you know and like even you get track and field guys like dude, one of my favorite things you did in your career was and this is no shade to Garrett Heath, but like what you did to him at loon like oh, my God.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: Like just you know you get these like supremely talented people.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: But like when it comes to you know the right, right course, the right athlete to the right day, you know just like what you're able to do is just crazy so yeah, you got to be able to compete, man yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: So we talked about tax, like the tactician, like one of the things is competition too, like you, come across as a hyper competitive person, would you?
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: Would you agree with that?
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: yeah, yeah, I like to compete, for sure.
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: Have you always been competitive?
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Or is that like oh yeah, yeah.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, even when I was getting in trouble, man, I wanted to be the best at getting in trouble.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: Whatever we're doing, I wanted to be the best at that too.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I like to compete, yeah.
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: What do you do, like when you're not training, like if you're not training, if you're just hanging out with the fam?
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: I know you're really into cooking and stuff like that.
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: What do you do outside of that grind, that struggle, man?
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: You know, now that we have kids, man, I'm a big believer that your family, your people in your circle, are the most important thing in terms of your time in life, and so a lot of it is just the hobbies with them, like things that they want to do.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: And, you know, hanging out with my kids, just spending time with them, making sure my wife you know she's getting my time.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: I put a lot of energy into my running and that's my passion, but outside of that I would say family is like the biggest thing for me.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: You know and and community right.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: Like people around me, people in my circle, like making sure you know, we break bread together and we spend time with one another and you know, we have conversations and you going through something, let's talk about it.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: Like you know, I think that the one-on-one relationships, our relationships with people, is the most important, so I would say that's a huge hobby for me is making sure I'm close with people and communicating and spending time with people that I love and appreciate.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: One of the questions from the audience, because I did field some questions yesterday.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: A lot of people wanted to know how you balance everything.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: They were very curious on how you balance being a dad, being a husband.
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: I don't even know how to like.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: It's amazing, you know.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: I would say I'm pretty blessed with.
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: My wife is like a big giver.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: She's not a person who asks for a lot, lot.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: She never has been.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: Um, she really loves being a mom.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: So she does take a lot of load off of me in terms of like.
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: You know, even a day like today, right, I said I'm doing the pod with my boy james, she's like well, I'll come, I'll come home early from work, I'll work from home, I'll go pick up, pick up the kids.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: She'll just do whatever.
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: Oh, my God, Thank you.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean she's there for me, I'm hurt, my leg hurts.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: She'll massage me every day.
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: She does massage me pretty much every day.
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: There's been times where I landed in where was I?
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: I think I was in Heathrow.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: My flight got canceled to the U?
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: S.
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm stressed out and she's like oh, I'm already looking at hotels for you.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: She just booked me a hotel.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: And like she's, she's, she's there, she's just that's a life partner.
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: Having somebody who has your back like that is priceless.
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: I think it definitely helps you balance things out.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: But then, on the other end too, I think when you talk about balancing life, it has to be a passion.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: You have to have passions that other people might think are stressors.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: Right, like some people think kids are stressors or oh that's.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: You know this is difficult.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: I look at that as like a huge gift and so it's a passion.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: Like if you look at it as something negative and it's something that really bothers you and that's your perspective, I think it's going to be difficult for you to balance that out.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: You have to learn how to make that a blessing, how to fit yeah, how to change your perspective, how to understand or even utilize, change things to make it a blessing.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: For me, discipline is very important.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: If I let my kids run wild, I see some people they don't discipline their children.
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: They let their children run crazy, do whatever they want.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: I don't believe in that.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: It might be stressful initially, I have to pay attention to certain things, but then they become a blessing.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: Like.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: My kids understand that.
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: They're very respectful.
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: They know when I say no, when I say yes.
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: They understand what to do and they do when they want to make you happy, right Like I think kids love discipline and direction.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: And it ends up being a blessing right, like hey, you know, daddy needs a drink.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: Okay, daddy, I'll get it for you.
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean?
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: Oh man, they want to be a part of the plan, and even there's days where you know you want to be lazy or something.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: Hey, yeah, let's go do this.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean.
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: So it's like that's a blessing.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: You know you could just be a deadbeat and lay on the couch all day, but then your kids are like let's go do something.
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: So it's like for me, I look at that as like man, this, that's a blessing to have you know, to have that.
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: It's an amazing answer too, because, like I said, that was one of the biggest questions people ask is how does he pounce?
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: How does he do all this?
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: So and it takes a village man, you know, like sure, yeah my parents are here.
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: You know, if we need a date night, um, my parents can.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: Can watch the kids, even though I mean, I like to have date night with the kids too.
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's fun.
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: I forgot who I think it was my mom was like.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: You know, you need to make sure that you value your wife and you show that appreciation to her individually.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: You know, I think that was a very good piece of marriage good advice.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I would advise it to you.
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: I, dude, I couldn't agree more.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: yeah, but, um, because you know I'm again man, like family's everything for me.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: So our first few date nights I got the whole, all the kids there, and then my mom says that to me and I was like I didn't even think about it.
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: Like that, yeah, cause you do start to lose each other just a little bit.
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: I think it's natural.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we need to raise these children, we need to make sure our attention needs to be focused on them to some extent.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: So, um, yeah, man, it's, it's, uh, it's been a blessing to have my parents here too, just if I need them to watch the kids.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: Oh, dude, it's a beautiful answer.
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: I appreciate that Cause I appreciate the advice too.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: That's good man.
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely keep it on your head.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: When you have kids, man, it's something to think about, for sure.
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: Let me ask you this man, this is something to me just because, like this, is a fun for you.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah it is, and I've always said you know, if I wasn't having fun, definitely in my prime years if I'm not having fun, I'm wasting my time.
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: Time is your most valuable asset.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to waste my time if I'm not having fun.
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: It looks different, you know, as you get older you maybe are hitting the same times that you were hitting before.
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: You're still kind of, you're almost chasing a ghost.
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: But for me that's fun.
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: Right Like I'm, I'm still trying to chase something down and I feel like I could still do things.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: You know, um, I think when they're completely out of reach, it might change your perspective a little bit.
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: But, uh, country representing sponsors who believe in my passion and are funding my passion, like again, huge blessing.
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: I've said that word a million times, but you know you can't do it without them.
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it definitely is something that elevates the fun, I think, to some degree.
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: I think that, like you said, like once it becomes a grind and it's not that, then it's.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: Then you start to.
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: You have to look from within, but, like man, that's so amazing to me that, like you've been in the sport like for a really long time and you still like, love it and it's just so much fun.
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: It's the greatest sport on earth.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: Well, we were getting to the, we were getting to the 40 thing.
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: That's what I was gonna.
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: So, and it's so crazy, dude, like you don't I mean, like you know, obviously I'm blowing smoke up your ass, but like you, you really don't look.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: You don't look 40, but like what is 40 now at this point, you know.
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: But like right.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: How does?
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: that number?
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: How do you think about that now?
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: Because, like you're at that age, you're, you're I mean, it doesn't look like that me or him or anybody else.
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: You're slowing down, like how does?
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: How do you think about that, oh man?
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: It's strange because if you have a bad day, you can kind of rely on the fact that you're racing against people your age, like there's a new category for you.
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I don't know if I like it.
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: There's some disdain there for me, because it's like you're kind of more centrally focused when things are going bad and it's like no, no, I got to compete, I got to compete and so I feel like there's like that invisible friend of yours hey, it's good, man, chill out, you can have a bad one.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: Look at the next master.
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: He's way back there.
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: You know, it's like you don't want that to creep in.
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: So that's the strange aspect of it for me.
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: That is interesting.
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: You're also, do you-?
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: I've heard this from other guys.
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: You know other masters who were kind of in my shoes at one point, and I've heard other, different perspectives.
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: They're like, man, when I became a master.
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: I'm not competing how I was before.
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: I'm done.
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: They're like, but I'm like, nah, I still want to win Right right.
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: I still won, you know, some titles as a 40-year-old national open and I still want to.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: I mean, so you're still obviously favored to go represent Team USA next year.
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, I would be surprised if you didn't.
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: You know, I think everybody would.
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: From a betting perspective, how does that so?
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: It's like you're in this weird place too, because regarded as the greatest of all time, one of the greatest of all times in the world.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: Like when you think about retirement.
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: Like how does what do you like?
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: How does that look like in the in the longterm?
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: Like what does that look like to you?
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no idea, man.
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: Um, um, I mean, I guess it'd just be more, more time poured into the kids yeah, you know, um, I try not to let my running get in the way of them and what they need, and but, um, yeah, if you're not traveling anymore, then I guess it's just more time with the family podcast.
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: Start a podcast come podcast, come and commentate.
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: I'll give you your own show, dude.
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: You come over anytime you want the Jim and Joe show.
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: There you go, there's my, there's my pitch.
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: So, all right, I'm going to pivot a little hard, cause one of the things that I think you and I strongly agree on um and you've been, you've talked a lot about it and I've listened to it on a bunch of podcasts is anti-doping.
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: One of the things that I admire about you is, like are you like, how does this work with this out of season pool that you're in?
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, is there a lot of americans even in that?
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: Like how does that?
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: work.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: I mean, and that's the big problem was trail running right like man?
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: I think I can only name two athletes who've ever been in the auto competition testing pool who have been top american mountain runners me and max king yeah that's crazy.
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: Um and honestly, I think the only reason we were in it was from results outside of mountain.
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: So maybe I have to ask Max.
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: I'd have to guess Max got in it for the same reason I did for our cross country results.
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: I think I won nationals and I think that's when I pretty much went in like a couple of weeks later.
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so it wasn't really mountain running technically.
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just, I was a mountain runner, you know who happened to be in it.
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: But I don't think they focused enough on how to understand objectively who should be in the pool, as they do with road and track, and obviously it's easier Road and track, it's a measured distance.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, At times it's very objective, very objective.
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: You know, if me and you do two different mountain races but we're both great it's maybe hard to know who should be tested and who it's not necessarily worth it for to be tested or waste money on testing them.
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: So, and it's a tough one, man, that's interesting.
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: I mean I would love to head it.
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: When I retire, that'd be, something I would love.
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: I feel like I could easily create a way for them to understand, even if I have to look at every athlete individually.
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: I could do that.
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: I know what it looks like, I know what greatness looks like or what you know red flag looks like in our sport and so um, it'd be good for us to get get dialed in on that in the trial world, cause I think it's.
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: I think it's happening more than people would like to believe.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, um, I was going to ask you that.
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: So I don't think a lot of people, whether it's belief, whether it's people turn their nose, or whether people just don't understand, I mean, I know this just as well.
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, that's way better than probably anybody else.
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: Um, being at the top of the sport, especially now that there's money coming into the sport, what's big sponsorships and lots of sponsors looking to pay out athletes and there's a lot of money into it, and with that money comes doping.
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, my assumption is that there's a lot more than people think at the top of the sport.
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: Would you agree with that?
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, but I think it's always kind of, I think it's been that way you think it's been that way for a while?
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: yeah, I think a lot of the, the shift to ultra, I think, has been fueled by that um, just, it's an easier pathway.
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: There's very likely that you're not going to get tested a lot of those alters, whereas a lot of my races I am being tested, yeah, um, and you know there's not a lot of my races I am being tested, yeah, um, and you know there's not a lot of prize purses and and ultras.
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: So you could go to a race doped up but you have a sponsor and the guy in second didn't, or you got third and you get your race bonus.
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: I get money and you don't, and so it's like it's kind of almost separating the field like the, the the haves and have nots with no testing.
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, separating the field like the the haves and have nots with no testing.
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so you're still allowing people to make money without being vetted and um, yeah, man, I mean it's.
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: it's crazy like I almost solely look at races that have testing, like just, I feel like I made more money in my career yeah when I focused on tested events so no, I I agree with it, man, I'm like I don't know and I'm not throwing names out there, like, but like there has been some notable europeans whose names have come up, or I mean, you even named one of them, petra, like there's quite a few people, I should say quite a few, but like most latest with stian um even maude.
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of rumored.
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: There's been a few caught, but there's a lot of rumors.
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's a lot of, like I would say, more substantial than rumor.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: You know, I think your affiliations definitely take a rumor and they and it gives it a little more validity.
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, One of the things okay, so this interests me a lot no-transcript.
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: They're not screening for a bunch of stuff like WADA and USADA would be screening for.
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: But then, on top of that, these same scientists are working individually with athletes, with brands and I won't say specifically who the brands are, but I think you can put a two and two together.
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're working with these athletes.
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: That's a conflict of interest big time.
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: But then, on top of that, you can't even protect the sport.
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: So you created this false idea that you're doing anti-doping and you're protecting sport, when in reality you've made our sport far worse.
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: Anti-doping and you're protecting sport, when in reality you've made our sport far worse.
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: you've added a far more heinous group and power dynamic in our sport that didn't exist before and and such you saw performances jump in a lot of different events and, um, you know, on top of that you let's just say you test it positive they could tell you well, well, you can't race today, but you don't get banned.
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: What?
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: That's bogus Dude really.
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: You're not protecting the sport.
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: Just get anti-doping at other races and actually protect the sport.
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: Because if I'm on drugs and I show up to your race and you tell me I can't race, fine, I'll go to this other one across the valley and win, and then I'll go win some more after that.
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: I'm not, you know.
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: Then you can tell Wada, oh, this guy, but maybe they don't catch me, yeah, so it's like you guys are a smoke screen.
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: You're not protecting our sport at all.
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: You actually harmed our sport.
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: They've done a lot of harm to our sport, I believe yeah.
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: They've created athletes who have stolen money from our sport.
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: I believe, oh, I totally agree with you.
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: And I believe, oh, I totally agree with you.
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: And so, um, yeah, man, I I could go on and on about that program, man, but I was very disappointed at the people who put that in.
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: But then you think about it.
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: One of the guys who brought it in also tested positive a couple of times in his career.
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: So it's like, yeah, and if anybody wants to look that up, go look at the rut.
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: What year was it?
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: 2014, 2015,?
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: The rut 50 K.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: There was a oh, I won't name a name, but oh, yeah, yeah oh, yeah, yeah, we'll talk about that after the fact.
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: But yeah, no, there's dude.
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: It's crazy like I.
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: I did not realize, and this is why I wanted to have this conversation, because I don't think, just like loving our sport and wanting our sport to grow and wanting the right athletes to rise to the top of the ones that deserve it, um, like conversations like this need to be had, and I think it's even more wild west in europe too.
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: I think, well, that all right.
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: So here's this question, too.
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: Now a lot of things over the counter not even just europe, I mean, there are other parts of the world where things are over the counter that are banned and people are playing with them.
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's now.
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: So court is court's technically gone now.
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: Now let's, are they using?
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: Because I know at pike's they use water it wasn't really gone from.
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: What I understood is like the name isn't there, but there's still some similar policies that exist, so gotcha yeah, is that.
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: So let me ask you this is that part of the reason like for like your series and gnaws and stuff like that?
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: Like, will you ever go back and do something like that, or is that?
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: I heard that they might be in the WMRA cup.
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: So then I would love to go back.
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: We need real drug testing.
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: I don't need you talking about a health program and people you know, basically skirting by.
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: So, um, yeah, if, if it has real drug testing, I would love to go back.
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: You know I love that part of Switzerland.
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: We got really close friends like family out there, so very connected.
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: Um, earlier in my career I've had a big connection to being in Switzerland, so it's a it's a very special Valley for me.
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: Can you talk about cause?
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: Like you, um, I don't know dude, like, even like you, back 2013, 14, 15, like you had some some battles at series and all.
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: Can you, can you talk about some of those?
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, um, I think the year I got second there, man 14, I think it was yeah, I, I was winning and uh took a spill.
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: And you know, there's the tourist classes on the course.
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: They go up a couple hours before the leak.
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: I don't know if they still do this, but they did back then.
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: And so you start around, probably 10K or so to go.
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: You start to pass them.
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: They're not really in your way too much at that point you can get around them.
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: But then you get kind of like there's a couple K left and there's like this rock garden and I just ran into this dude.
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: I came around the corner and just bam and uh, I was limping and hit my quad and sure enough, here comes killian and uh, you know he passed me and god damn it and you know, I always wonder, like man, if it wasn't raining, like if it was dry, because I ran a solid time but I was like if it was dry I might have been able to hold him off.
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: But being that it was wet and like you know, when your quad is destroyed you just don't have the stability and you know you're losing a lot of power and then, with the terrain being wet, you're losing even more.
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: So you know, it allowed him to really suck me up pretty quick.
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: You know, catch up pretty fast and um, but yeah, man uh, it was.
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: it was still a good battle, so cool.
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I had a good time out there.
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: So one of the things you talk about is power and wattage, especially when it comes to uphill running and stuff like that.
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: I got a million questions on what do you do training-wise?
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: Is it everything when you're thinking about this?
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: Is it more so like when you're doing exercises, all this stuff?
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: Is it all power related?
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: Like how can I generate the most power to be able to run uphill, like as fast as possible, like what?
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: How do you think about that?
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: Me personally how I feel about I think it's very individual.
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: It depends on your muscle makeup, uh, your fuel.
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: You know how your body uses fuel, your size.
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: You know what you're more comfortable on steep not so steep descending.
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: But I honestly feel like if you develop a really good aerobic engine, it allows you to have sustained power.
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean and so I'm not talking so much.
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: When I'm talking about power, I'm not saying like like sprint power per se or anaerobic power, but if you have a really good aerobic ability, you have the ability then to sustain a hard effort.
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: At threshold to where somebody only had power or just a lot of spring, they wouldn't be able to maintain that.
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: You know you'd put them in debt pretty quick or they would find out very early I can't do this or in the middle of the race.
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: This is too much.
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean, and so I always compared it to, you know, me and Max right Early in our careers, when we first came in the sport.
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: I was maybe coming from more of an aerobic background and Max coming more from an anaerobic background and he was like shoot eight, 30 ish, steepler, maybe even on the, on the button, and um, you know, I was a few seconds slower than the steeple and I definitely didn't do it from a speed approach Like I think he would.
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: He was much better foot foot speed.
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: So in our first ever meeting I knew I needed to be very aerobically fit coming into that race because he's going to be putting the hammer on me early on with his speed on this course and by midway my aerobic ability allowed me to kind of press him and stretch him in a way to where it made him uncomfortable.
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: I was able to gap him and so then, you know, I was able to win that race.
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: But if I had been, you know, thinking, oh, let me focus on my speed, he probably just outdistanced me at the end because he had better foot speed at the time.
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: And so, you know, I really feel like that aerobic side.
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: People forget about that.
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of guys are focusing speed, speed, speed, fast, and it's like the problem with that is you don't have an engine, you know, to sustain efforts and in mountain running, especially like sub ultra, you know, when you're dealing with steep terrain and just kind of undulating terrain, it throws your body in between anaerobic and aerobic, muscular, wise, in terms of how it's utilizing energy.
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: Some people would think, oh, you run pikes a lot, that's an aerobic effort of how it's utilizing energy.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: Some people would think, oh, you run pikes a lot, that's an aerobic effort.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: And it's like not really your body is really shifting a lot because of this, that the steepness of the terrain so if you have a really good aerobic engine, you can go between both and your body has the right fuel, it knows how to fuel itself to stay there and not go from, say you, you know you kind of get into the anaerobic zone and then you drop, like your percentage drops from 40% because you're more of an anaerobic-focused athlete and so when you have that aerobic engine you're able to kind of like sustain that state in that aerobic zone, even when you're starting to kind of falter, so interesting.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: Do you lift at all?
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: In the off-season I do a little bit um, depending on what I'm getting ready for gotcha.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, interesting yeah I had cam smith in here a while back or a couple weeks ago.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: Okay, dude, he's in the gym like five times a week.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: I mean his is different because it's schemo, but like he's still nasty good on steep stuff and I'm just like interesting yeah, man, yeah, cam was at pikes this year yeah I raced cam a lot this year actually.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you did everything, he did do everything.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: He was at gopro with me.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, uh, circ, was it circ series, a basin he showed up, that's right, yeah, there too.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: Uh, so maybe I raced him more than I even thought initially.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's everywhere.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: He was at Pikes, and then I don't think where else I saw him.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: Dude, what did you think of that Cirque Series?
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: A Basin race Like that was a huge collection of talent.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's a good race man.
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: That's the one.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was the one, that goes like 13,000 feet, something like that.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: It was up there.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: It was a couple of weeks or a week before pikes or something like that.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: No, that was I mean.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: They always get Colorado.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: If you have prize money in Colorado, you're going to have a good field.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: Dude show up yeah.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: This is the worst state If you were looking for easy money you're going to earn it.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: This isn't the state to be in.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: I was in Washington earlier in my career and it was like I could come into a race, tired or not, on my A game and I could maybe get a squeak out, a win.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: But I was like you can't do that in Colorado.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: If there's substantial prize money, you're going to get clapped if you come in and you're not ready.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: Not to turn your head away from pikes, but don't know if you know this, but uh, julian's putting out another cirque race next year, that is in washington it's at crystal.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: No, I heard that yeah same weekend as pikes, though, so I'm like god damn it, um well I bet it'll still get numbers only because, uh, worlds is the week after, is it really?
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: Really, oh yeah.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: So if so, if you're going to worlds or you're probably not racing bikes that next year man, it all depends.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: You know, like.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: It depends on how.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: I don't know Everybody's different Like after the trail running camp that I do for the kids, like I have to take all that into account what the fitness is looking like, how the preparation looks.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: Um, you got to make the team.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: You know all that.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: I mean, if I didn't make the team, then I have a bunch of yeah, you got time.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: Sorry, I'm counting your chickens already.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: Um, okay, dude, really quick.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: Uh, one of the things I do want to talk about is your, the, the kids camp.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: Okay, um yeah, can you, can you dive into that?
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: Talk about, uh, we went away, I got sick and we got married in July.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: It was rough July, dude.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: July is a busy, especially for runners elite runners it's a busy month, I get it.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: We had that wedding and I literally got back the day after the wedding and someone I don't know.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: It's like every time I go to Silverton I get COVID.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: I don't know why I was sick this year.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: It was bad, but anyway, let's talk about the camp, because I want to uh, anybody listen to this that has young ones they're thinking about it, um, or wants to donate and things like that.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: I want to get this out.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: so yeah, um, I, you know, I kind of came up with the idea with, uh, with dreamer, and I think you know dreamer and um, we got um the stephanowicz family, brandon, melissa and there.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: So we had four coaches and you know we got together and wanted to bring something to the community, introducing kids to trails, mountains, and yeah, man, it's been awesome just to see kids who have had no experience on the trail come out and they absorb the knowledge.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: They're listening, you know, they pay attention.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: We've been very lucky and blessed to have kids who they're eager to learn Our community.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: I think something like this.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: You could see a huge explosion of greatness coming from the spring specifically, or I guess it depends on where the kids end up moving.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: You know they're young, their families might move, but the mindset that we've seen these last few years with these kids, you know they listen, they're good, you know they get pretty good at it just within one day, you know, and it's just awesome to take part in it.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: And then, on the other end of that, I started Project Inspire Diversity just because I wanted to introduce this to other young black athletes, and so I'm.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: You know people donate to the nonprofit that I have set up for and you know we use that for scholarships for a couple of young athletes and we bring them in and expose them as well to to trail running, and you know a lot of these kids have never really been on trails or mountain stuff before to trail running, and you know a lot of these kids have never really been on trails or mountain stuff before and uh, it's really dope man to see them.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: I feel like I'm looking into a, like a mirror, like what it was like the first time I did trail running.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: It's like they're having fun they're like man, this is cool, this is fine it's the greatest sport on earth.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: Man, they love it um, yeah, man, I love it.
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: I love seeing those moments when they're learning something new and it's like a light went off in their head and you know, I want to be able to provide that gift to more and more in our community over the years.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: And then the last day there's a.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: You guys have a race, right yeah?
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: yeah, it was a legit race.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: I don't you know.
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: I think I want to say Brandon designed the course this year.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: My course last year was it was tough.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: It was definitely a tough course, but Brandon put together oh.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: I'm sure he did, of course, and I was worried because I was like man are these kids going to be able to handle this?
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: This is just some technical stuff in here, and they're, you know, they're climbing and descending pretty substantial amount for their age especially.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: And man, they, they, they did awesome.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: We had a couple kids go down.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: They got popped back up bloody and everything.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: These kids were tough man and, um, it was cool to watch the race, you know, and I was like on course, trying to see what's going on oh yeah paying attention, like you know, like I'm at a race, you know at a, at one of our bigger races, and just watching so much fun, so being a spectator and, uh, seeing the kids, that competitive side, come out and and they were having fun competing and, you know, cheering each other on asking how each other did on their teams and it was cool man.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: That is so cool and I'll link uh.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna put it in the show notes.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: So, if folks want to, um to the website as well.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: As uh project inspired diversity.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: If people want to donate or get involved, definitely so that, so that way we can get this.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: I mean that I have a link that people go to and donate to.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: Okay, cool, cool, yeah We'll put that in there.
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: All right, dude, we're getting a right about an hour now.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: I don't want to take your whole day.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: I've had the audience.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: I put out a whole thing for audience questions yesterday.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: One is is because ultimate direction is sponsored in this episode.
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: Um, our, our common sponsor, um, one of the things they wanted to know is what's joe's favorite piece of gear?
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: oh man, they should know that.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: Oh no, you, oh ud asked, or someone this is just from oh someone, okay, um, yeah, the the ultra jacket, ultra pants you like the ultra track and I love it.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: Man, what do you think of the tarmac fest?
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: I just got one.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: I you know I'm I mean I.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: I probably sound like a hypocrite with what I was going to say because I have one on, but like I don't wear vests a ton.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: Neither do I.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: I feel like Colorado.
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 2: Our weather is usually cold enough that a vest maybe won't do it, and or it's super nice and you don't need it.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Colorado is kind of weird when we are in Colorado.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: It's true.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: Granted.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: The vest probably would come in handy in some other parts, but I'll wear them just hanging out sometimes.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: Are you a belt guy?
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: Do you use any of the belts?
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: I've only ever seen you in races We've never raced each other but I've only ever seen like, use, like your, the belt and your shorts or whatever.
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: You're using the whole stuff.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: I uh, I, I like the, I don't, I don't like it having it on my stomach, like in that area as much.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: But if I'm just doing something easy, I don't mind it yeah it's not too bad they're.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: They're actually really comfortable.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: Compared to when I first came in the sport, any belts were like a no-go for me.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: But yeah, ud has definitely made it possible to wear a belt for someone like me who I feel like I don't like things being in my gut area yeah, you know, dude, they don't bother me even more so with, like any of the vests, like I just uh, like I mean there are new stuff coming out, like there is a, a new sport and a new ultra vest coming out in early 2025 which it is too yeah dude and yeah.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: So like I used to not like him because it was like, just like I don't know, I don't like anything on my chest, but like I've got, I've just like worn all we all have our yeah things.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: I like the exodus, I love that one see, the access didn't like as much as the the new stuff.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: Like then I felt like I just stopped there a couple weeks ago.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: Uh, shout out to brett and and emmy, but like they were um you were in I was just up there.
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was modeling oh the one in colorado.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I got to model the uh the new ultra and the new sport.
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: I think it's the sport that they're coming out with they're.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: I don't think they've turned the page on like competing with like solomon and like other people like that.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: Um, they've definitely turned a page, with some of the new stuff coming out, which is exciting yeah, I love the exodus man.
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: I use that yeah, I was using it today, so don't worry um dude one thing this is not an audience question but like, just like reflecting on like colorado springs and like the place that we live, like I feel like it's so slept on.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: Man, I know everybody wants to talk about how like boulder is like the greatest thing on earth and boulder is great, don't get me wrong.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: But like I just think for like a metropolitan area that like you can get trail like such good trail access here.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I think there's.
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: For me, boulder's cool, but I don't know, I just don't like it as much.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't feel like if you want to be a trail runner, I feel like you need to live in a specific place there, otherwise you're doing a lot of driving, whereas, like in the Springs, you can live in a plethora of areas off of the main mountain and there's some good trails.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: I mean technical.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: You can get on technical stuff in the city.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know it's….
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: Palmer, yeah, yeah, you have access to some open spaces that are pretty legit, like I mean I used to live close.
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: Access to some open spaces that are pretty legit, like I mean I used to live close to.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: I almost never went to Bar Trail for some of the time when I was getting ready for pikes, because I didn't need to.
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: I was like you know I got some pretty good climbs like right here and you know.
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: So yeah, no, I mean, I love our accessibility across the whole town and you know there's a lot more job opportunity.
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 2: You know, if'm not a professional runner, I don't know what else I'm going to do in boulder besides work for the university or something like that.
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: Um, but you know, down here we have everything we got shoot.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: You can work with anti-doping even here.
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean so which is, you know, definitely something I'm interested in yeah, that's cool.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: Now I do, and the thing is like you can get I don't like.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: I just love the incline and all these things.
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: Like you can get two 3000 foot climbs like no problem here, which is dope.
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: And then get the flat stuff too.
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, it's, it's amazing.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: It's a very elite city.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: I mean there's a lot of I don't.
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to think well, now, I guess now they got that on group out there, that changes things, but I would say we were definitely way more elite in terms of, like, competition wise oh yeah um, but they got that group out there, those guys I didn't know they put an on team out there.
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: I know there was like tin man out there running in a bunch of yeah, when it was just them yeah the springs definitely would have, would have crushed, yeah, with that group.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: You know they got a medalist.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: Now I think they got a couple, maybe shit, they got some.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: They got some boys dude, when, like, you've accomplished so much, like, is there anything like else you want to do, like that you have on your mind.
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 2: As far as like places, you want to go see things you want to do, races you want to do like, um, yeah, I mean I would like to see some you know race in some countries that maybe I haven't raced in yet, like there's some countries I haven't been to that I would like to see some you know race in some countries that maybe I haven't raced in yet, like there's some countries I haven't been to.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: That would be intriguing to see what it would be like to race there.
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know and it's definitely like in Asia.
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: More so Asia and Africa.
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: Those are two places that I think I would are on the kind of bucket list.
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 2: Would like to get out there and see.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 2: Well, asia, you're a big foodie, so I feel like for that as hard to compete with asia when it comes to food.
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 2: Oh hell, yeah, dude, they got too many, too many good spots, too many different genres of food.
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 2: I mean korean szechuan, you got all the good stuff down there are you spying?
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: you're a spicy guy too, right, like, oh, like, oh yeah, oh man, that's good stuff.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: All right, let me get into some of these audience questions.
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: Kevin asks what is your training advice for athletes that want to?
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: achieve their uphill running potential.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: Kind of going back to what I was saying earlier, I think you know getting better at that aerobic stuff, right, you have to get used to doing some progressive tempos.
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 2: Um, I don't necessarily think that you should jump into a bunch of just like short speed stuff or only thresholds, I think you know, progressions are really important because a lot of mountain races do feel very progressive.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 2: You know they get progressively harder.
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: You're going up altitude.
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 2: Maybe it's getting steeper near the end.
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 2: So I think those are a good place to start.
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 2: For sure, super near the end.
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: So I think those are a good place to start.
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: For sure, I like that Sean asks what is your staple uphill workout.
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: Everything's about like performance.
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 2: Shoot, I got a bunch man.
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: That's a tough one to answer, but I do.
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: I like.
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: I like progressive stuff.
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: You know I've worked out with John a few times.
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 2: I like to do some progressive uphill stuff where we're cutting down in pace and you know you feel like you're racing by the end.
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean.
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 1: Dude, do you ever do workouts on the incline?
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 2: This is just out of my curiosity, not often, um not often, uh, I've done a couple um like tempos with john up it.
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: Um, if we're getting ready for something like that, yeah, I mean I probably should have been doing it like if had I not had to take the break after pikes.
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: Uh, that would have been a good place to train for the team usa event, because the that event over there was like stairs the entire way oh my god, it's terrible.
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: Um, all right.
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: So rob asks any tips for runners in the northeast that want to prepare for races at altitude um, um.
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: I think the biggest thing is that kind of don't show up too early, like that's at least what I've found Like just show up like the day before.
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 2: Don't spend too much time altitude when you're going to coming from sea level.
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 2: I think that's the biggest mistake you made.
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: I think you make.
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 2: I came from um.
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 2: I think I was in the Northeast actually before the first time.
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 2: I did Kendall and uh, you know, I should have just come in the day before.
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: I came in, like two or three days, man.
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: Then the altitude starts kicking my butt.
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 2: I'm like, oh man, this is not going to be fine.
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: And you got to go fast, like that's a road the whole way up.
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 1: So you gotta have done other altitude.
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: I've done other altitude races where I just kind of just showed up like right before and it wasn't that bad.
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 2: I'm now, after you feel extremely dehydrated, your body's like this completely new stimulus.
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I think showing up closer to the event is maybe smarter.
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I like that one.
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 1: Brittany asks what are you the most proud of in your career?
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 2: Just asks what are you the most proud of in your career?
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: Um, just the, the accumulation of accolades, the longevity of being able to.
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 2: You know, I'd always tell people, I think, that one of the most difficult things is when I look at like the greats and pretty much any sport.
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 2: They've had to compete when they were down.
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 2: They've had to compete when they were down.
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 2: They've had to compete when they were injured, they had to compete when maybe they weren't as fit.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 2: Um, finding a way to compete and still win, I think, is something that I'm most proud of, like being able to.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: You know, there's a number of championships that, uh, that I think that I won and where I was like, coming into that race, I don't think I was going to win it, or I wasn't favored to win it, or I knew I probably wasn't ready to win it, and when the gun went off I just kind of found a way.
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 2: So those ones were the most special.
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: Love that.
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: And then my wife asks what is your favorite race?
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 1: Post-race hard effort slash, hard effort meal.
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: Hard effort, slash hard effort meal right now nokia quattro famaggi oh, italian, all right.
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 2: Oh, dude, I'm big fan yeah, I mean I've made that a few times.
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: Well, we don't use online, we don't use the four cheese, we just use.
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 2: We do three.
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 2: But I like to, I'll change it up like I'll use three different cheeses all the time, like just random different cheeses, because I mean you can't really go wrong with gnocchi, like yeah it's so good, you can put american cheese on gnocchi and it would be good yeah that's true are you a pizza guy?
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: yeah, same man we make pizza at the house.
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: My wife, wife makes, she makes her own pizza, so yeah, it's good.
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 1: Rose just got into, like last year, started making um, like, started doing sourdough stuff.
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: So now we do, we do pizza, we do I got a fresh bread down there Bagels, all the carbs, dude, all the carbs.
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: Last question from the audience.
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: Melissa asks uh, uh, thinking back on your career, is there one thing you wish you would have done differently?
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 2: it's a tough one, because I uh when, when I had an answer like three seconds after you said that, but it was like more of a facetious answer, but I was like I would have.
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 2: I would have went a different way with some brands, not signed with some or signed with others.
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 2: But uh, I mean, that's probably not what she wants to hear.
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 2: That's the business side.
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 2: But um man, that's a tough one, man.
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 2: I really don't know what I would have done different.
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of the things that I did do are things that I would tell my son or my daughter to do.
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 2: to be honest, I mean there's not much I would change.
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 2: I mean you're the GOAT, so you did it right.
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 2: There's definitely been races where maybe I didn't have the right gear for the day.
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 2: You know, and if I knew in hindsight now and I could go back in that time, I'd switch that out.
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean but, um, that's not how time works, not yet.
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 2: So all right, dude, maybe john will figure it out sometime yeah, right, find a black hole.
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 1: We can go back what are the uh dude?
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 1: One of the questions I had for you was it wasn't last.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 1: Was it last year?
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 1: What was the right.
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 1: When was the year you broke your wrist and you did pikes?
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 1: Was that last year, I think.
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: So that's like the jordan sick year, dude, like man that shit you must have been excruciating, because I remember I don't know if you were telling me or if it was on a post like you dropped your glasses and you had to have someone help pick them up for you.
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 2: My hands were frozen Cause, you know, like the glove, like I had this thing on it, it wasn't working well, cause your hands are open.
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 2: And, yeah, this dude helped me put it on and I was like man, I'm glad he was here.
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 2: That's crazy.
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 2: It was, you know, my doctor.
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 2: They told me not to do it and I probably shouldn't have, because my other bone was still like it hadn't congealed yet it was clicking.
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 2: So like you can't run hard, like I had to keep a very smooth pace, otherwise, like if I made any kind of sudden, like hard moves, it was like oh, that's weird.
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 2: It was just like shooting up man, like you could feel it right on your heart, Like it was hurting man, uh, but yeah, I learned a lesson I.
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 2: You know that's maybe something, those things you learn.
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 2: You know you learn after doing it.
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 2: Like now, if I had an athlete I'm coaching and they're like you know, I still want to run this race, but like listen, don't do it.
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: Wasting your time.
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 1: Did you have like a hard cast on or were you just doing soft cast?
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 2: and you took the soft cast off, or did they?
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 2: No, they, so I.
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 2: I told them I didn't want the hard yet okay and they're like okay.
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 2: And then I was like well, I don't want this.
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: It was like a 3d thing and I was like can we just cut it off and put it back on after the race yeah, and they were like uh it's like I don't need my hands, whatever they're like well, you don't want to fall down again on it, do you?
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 1: write with your left hand.
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: Are you lefty or are you right-handed?
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 1: I'm right, okay, so it doesn't, doesn't really.
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's crazy.
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 1: Um, yeah, it's a.
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 1: That's wild dude.
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good thing you didn't fall, or did you fall?
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 2: I did, but it was um.
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: It was on such a steep section that my hand it didn't really hurt that much yeah, not really.
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 1: All adrenaline's gone too.
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 2: You're like yeah, it was.
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 2: It was near, like the golden stairs.
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 2: It's like it's such a steep section that, yeah, you're not hitting it hard per se, and it was you know, at that point I was kind of slipping a little bit on the the snow.
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 2: I had like a bald kind of shoe like my shoes.
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 2: It was like almost a cross-country shoe, I think.
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 2: I just wanted to see how it would do, yeah, and not the best shoe for that type of stuff, and so I was trying to be very careful in that section when we were on like snow or anything like that yeah so I couldn't even take advantage of the snow that year speaking of shoes, I know you're like a evo jaws guy.
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 1: I've seen you wear those a bunch.
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: Is that like?
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: Is that like your go-to, or is that?
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: uh, man, I love that shoe man.
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 2: Uh, it was kind of.
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 2: You know, it was the first shoe.
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 2: I won a lot of major races with my first year with Hoka and it was I just kind of fell in love with it right away.
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 2: And you know, I think when you get older in the sport you kind of get stuck in your ways and you like a certain feel, and so it's a shoe that I've always liked.
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 2: But you know, we've been working on some, some other stuff.
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I heard some.
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: There's some stuff coming down the pike.
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 1: That sounds pretty pretty exciting.
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 1: So yeah, oh, dude, I love to hear it.
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: All right, One last question, and then I'll I'll give you a day back.
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 1: Um dude, what's your walkout song?
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: Man, it changes man.
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 2: Uh, you know, I'm a very I'm a big believer.
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 2: I don't like routine at all.
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: Really, sometimes I'll listen to Earth, wind, fire before some big races, might listen to some Jodeci, might be listening to some Drake.
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 1: You know who else man, I like DMX sometimes.
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 2: Like I guess DMX it depends on the mood, but like, yeah, there's some moments where it's like I think, definitely, I think DMX is more like when there's a lot of negative energy coming at you, maybe, like I felt like a lot of people were had a lot of commentary that I didn't like, but I love it really because it fuels me.
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 2: But, and those are the moments like when you know there was a couple races like this, where it's like, oh, that's a dmx moment, like I need you to be here with me and uh.
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 2: And then there's moments where you know it's more of a calmer approach and some love.
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: music is always, always good, so I like that do you listen to music at all when you trade?
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 2: uh, no, not not so much.
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 2: Um, definitely, I mean, it was a lesson that I learned moving here, like in washington.
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 2: I did yeah but there's a lot more wildlife here and I think I was just like nervous about that, being a city boy and you know, and people are like, yeah, you shouldn't listen to music.
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 2: Something could just run up on you and I'm like run up on what you mean you wouldn't even hear was like oh, so I'm not listening to music anymore out here, so I just kind of gave it up out here.
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 2: But definitely we listen to music all the time, me and my wife and my kids and stuff that's cool.
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 2: Big music family, my dad, my mom growing up with a lot of music.
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 1: Love it.
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 1: Well, dude, thanks so much for coming on.
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 1: Honestly, honor and a privilege.
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this was an amazing episode and you're always uh, can't wait to have you back on again.
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 1: Thanks, man.
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 1: What'd you guys think I told you that was a special one.
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 1: Um, I have to be honest with you, it was.
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 1: It was so special for me and probably the greatest honor I've had as a podcast host to be able to sit down with the goat and shoot the shit and just talk running it was.
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 1: It was a lot of fun and something I'll definitely look back on and treasure as as this podcast continues to grow.
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: So, guys, before you get going, do me a solid hop on Instagram.
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 1: If you don't already follow Joe, give, give him a follow.
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 1: His Instagram handle is Joe G Z.
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 1: J O E G E E Z.
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 1: I.
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 1: Um, it's not just running.
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 1: Joe enjoys a lot of things.
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 1: He really loves cooking.
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 1: Um, he's got a lot of just just a hobby.
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 1: He's hobbies.
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 1: So tons of hobbies, uh, and really fun stuff.
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 1: He's a great follow, um.
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 1: One more thing hop on to Instagram and also give COS.
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 1: Uh, trck, that's the trail running camp for kids.
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: Uh, the Joe dream of Walton.
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 1: Um, and Brandon and Melissa Stepanowich put on every year.
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 1: That's going to be in Colorado Springs.
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 1: Um, so if you guys are interested, it's going to be linked in the show notes.
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 1: Um, if you've got young ones or if you have, maybe, a young family member or a brother and sister, um, someone young that would fit that criteria and you're interested in getting them involved in the sport of trail running, definitely check out this kid's camp that's put on every July, um, and hosted by the greatest of all time um, along with a slew of other amazing community members.
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: So, um, definitely really fun and, like I said, the signup for that is going to be linked to the show notes.
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 1: Um, guys, hope you enjoyed this episode.
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 1: Like I said, this one meant everything to me.
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: It was really special to be able to bring this to you.
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: If you did enjoy this episode, um, do me a solid share this on Instagram, put it in your story, um, you know, let the share to the world.
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 1: That's how we can continue to cover the sport of sub ultra and have great conversations like this.
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 1: Um.
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 1: Also, if you did enjoy it, um, it means the world to me.
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 1: If you could give this a five-star rating and review, uh, that's how we can continue to share this as well on Apple and Spotify, and this episode in particular, along with many others in the future, is going to be available with full video format on YouTube.
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 1: So, guys, hope you enjoyed this one.
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 1: Have a great rest of your week.
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 1: Thanks so much.
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 1: Take care, thank you.