Latest / The Vietnamese with Kenneth Nguyen / 548 - Is There A "Secret Sauce" Missing From Vietnamese Jazz? - An Tran

Transcript

548 - Is There A "Secret Sauce" Missing From Vietnamese Jazz? - An Tran · The Vietnamese with Kenneth Nguyen

0:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Vietnamese podcast today.
0:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I have an entran with me.
0:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been waiting a long time for this.
0:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Like a lot of guests that I do.
0:07
[SPEAKER_00]: This is for me.
0:09
[SPEAKER_00]: This is probably months in the making.
0:11
[SPEAKER_00]: If not, maybe a year or two in the making because I actually saw you on Instagram.
0:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Many, many, many moons ago.
0:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So thank you for coming on to the Vietnamese podcast.
0:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course.
0:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for having me.
0:23
[SPEAKER_01]: My name is Entran.
0:24
[SPEAKER_01]: As known as Entran Sax.
0:26
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I go by on Instagram.
0:28
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what
0:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And Tran is a sax player, and a few months ago, we finally connected in New York and back in February, and we sat and we had a discussion about jazz music, and I knew a lot about you through Nam, you know, I had already known a few things about you for my producer.
0:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And I wanted to sit and really dig deep into
0:56
[SPEAKER_00]: This idea of jazz and before we get into the jazz, we're gonna talk about your background and your lineage.
1:02
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, how you got into the jazz world and I believe your father is a big jazz name in jazz saxophone player in Vietnam.
1:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I do want to bring up like how his relationship for better for worse affects you in terms of privilege, in terms of legacy,
1:25
[SPEAKER_00]: making things either harder or easier psychologically for you.
1:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure it's a mixed bag when you have a great one of the greats as a dad.
1:35
[SPEAKER_00]: That I think that's going to always be something that the second generation of those kinds of legacies have to deal with.
1:43
[SPEAKER_00]: So all right, let's get into it.
1:46
[SPEAKER_00]: How old were you when you first
1:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, wow, that's a great question.
1:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think anybody's ever asked me that question.
1:55
[SPEAKER_01]: The so sick, I think because I grew up on a second floor of a jazz club, I have music and rhythm in my body because I just feel like I listen to all these jazz, classic tunes.
2:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't intentionally listen to it just because it's blasting downstairs every single night.
2:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Every single night.
2:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Every single night.
2:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Is a jazz club downstairs?
2:18
[SPEAKER_00]: What's going on downstairs?
2:20
[SPEAKER_01]: So my family owned a jazz club in District 1 back in the days in Lle on Lle Street.
2:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was like the tours hub that's like where everybody would go to listen to jazz.
2:30
[SPEAKER_00]: You're literally living upstairs from that.
2:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm literally on the second floor, on top of that jazz club.
2:36
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm absorbing all these sound and all these songs.
2:42
[SPEAKER_01]: And I grew up, I didn't realize that I have these sounds memorized until I go to jazz school.
2:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Like in the US, I'm like, how do I know this song?
2:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know the name of it.
2:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know I remember all these jazz tunes and I don't even know what it's called and I can't find it and people ask me how do you know the song without knowing the name of it?
3:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, do I don't really know?
3:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I just know it from growing up on a second floor of a jazz club.
3:10
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's how I think it got to me.
3:13
[SPEAKER_00]: That is a six story like it's osmosis, you know, it just comes in from the fact that you live on top of this.
3:21
[SPEAKER_00]: So, so you basically don't even remember how old you were when you were receiving a lot of this music.
3:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
3:29
[SPEAKER_01]: basically.
3:30
[SPEAKER_01]: But then I got forced into like learning an instrument when I was four, four, five.
3:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I, my dad forced me to play classical piano, which I didn't really enjoy at the moment, but I appreciate him forever forcing me because then I have to skills to transition into just piano later.
3:48
[SPEAKER_01]: But I didn't really like it.
3:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And for four years it's too much.
3:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, this is too much work going on.
3:54
[SPEAKER_01]: I just want to hang out.
3:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I just want to do my thing.
3:58
[SPEAKER_01]: So I tried different.
3:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I tried like four different types of art.
4:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I tried ballet.
4:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I tried painting.
4:04
[SPEAKER_01]: It got really got a painting and then I quit because I realized I was allergic to acrylic paint.
4:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And I tried musical theater, which I also really loved, and then, then do it anymore, because we moved to District 2 later on.
4:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And I tried different things, and then I tried the saxophone, but I was nine, and I was like, whoa, I really like this feeling of playing this instrument.
4:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And I search online, and there's like, barely any female that plays saxophone.
4:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember the first search that went up was like, can you do for, do you know, can you do for her?
4:41
[SPEAKER_01]: She's a famous, I don't know if I say her name right, can you do for her?
4:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
4:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Famous female sex player.
4:47
[SPEAKER_01]: The first name that popped up and I was like, this is so cool, there's no one in Vietnam that does that.
4:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, she's Vietnamese?
4:54
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, no, she's from the US.
4:56
[SPEAKER_01]: But like, there's no one in Vietnam that does this.
4:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to be that girl.
5:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And then so I started learning a saxophone from nine.
5:05
[SPEAKER_01]: My brother taught me the saxophone.
5:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And my dad was like, no, I don't want to teach you saxophone because you're a girl.
5:13
[SPEAKER_01]: You should play piano.
5:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, what does that mean?
5:16
[SPEAKER_01]: What does that mean?
5:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't like that.
5:19
[SPEAKER_01]: So I thought him and I practiced and I got good at it.
5:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Then he was like, all right, sure.
5:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have to pay for piano lessons anymore.
5:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just going to teach you for free.
5:28
[SPEAKER_01]: That's even better.
5:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So here's the debate that I have a lot.
5:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I think about the ability to force my child, and I'm speaking for every parent, that when they're like four, eight years old, nine years old, and you're like pressuring to do piano.
5:51
[SPEAKER_00]: If he didn't pressure you at four, and I'm asking you to give me your thoughts about like
5:59
[SPEAKER_00]: you look back and if you didn't give you that structural foundation by the time you hop onto the sacs at nine you wouldn't have like a real firm so when you look at it at your age right now and you went to Berkeley right which is LEE not LEY just to make that distinction Berkeley School of Music is very different from Berkeley in California
6:21
[SPEAKER_00]: You went to Berkeley and had it and I'm not saying like at four the reason, you know, you got forced and all this is a reason why you made it to Berkeley But it has something to do with it.
6:31
[SPEAKER_00]: So how would you look at this kind of pressure do you look back and go okay parents?
6:37
[SPEAKER_00]: All good forced a child.
6:39
[SPEAKER_00]: It eventually turns into something or no, you're like don't do that
6:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I appreciated my dad so much for pushing me when I was four and I regret not listening to him actually.
6:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
6:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know that's a huge debate like, should parents force their child to learn ABC, I go to after school, I think we were so young, we were tiny, we don't know anything.
7:04
[SPEAKER_01]: And yes, like, it's not our choice yet at the time, but you will appreciate it later, because I feel like at the time my dad had a vision.
7:13
[SPEAKER_01]: He had a vision that I could potentially be really talented at that field.
7:17
[SPEAKER_01]: So he pushed me and I really appreciate him for doing that.
7:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think people should do that.
7:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think I agree with that, I think I agree.
7:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Cause you hear a lot of kids going like in my generation and a little bit younger, they're always like, Japanese, they're always like, why didn't you teach me Vietnamese?
7:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Why didn't you force me to hear that a lot?
7:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And they get mad at their parents for like not teaching them.
7:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, sometimes I just feel like a piece of shit for not teaching my kids Vietnamese.
7:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just lazy, but I should be pressuring them to learn that.
7:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I love them, yes, yes.
7:49
[SPEAKER_00]: It's an amazing thing.
7:53
[SPEAKER_00]: the ability for you to sit back now and say, Dad, you know, thank you for pushing me, I wish.
8:00
[SPEAKER_00]: would push me more on it.
8:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to move on to another topic that you talked about.
8:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And I wasn't prepared to hear you talk about it, but you said you went through four things.
8:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that experience with other mediums is so important.
8:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I just recently started painting a few months ago and learning about painting, but now it informs the way I interview.
8:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I understand it more and can you tell me about the four different mediums that you how it all kind of like help support Jazz saxophone playing music in general?
8:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say so I try classical piano it really helps with the discipline like classical music Learning the piano is all about learning discipline and like you're practice same thing all the scales all over again
8:52
[SPEAKER_01]: But that really helps me to become a better musician, because all you do is practice, all you do is memorize, all you do is look at the music sheet and focus on like what's going on, learn to rhythm, and then Malay Dance, Malay really helps me with like learning about my body and like how the body works and how like you know your duty works and
9:22
[SPEAKER_01]: and how I move on stage and then painting helps me with like visuals.
9:27
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the visual side of being an artist.
9:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I help it helps me with like colors and like shades.
9:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Like choosing my sense of I guess like daily fashion and style.
9:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And then musical theater helps me be more vulnerable being my own character and choosing a different character when you're on stage.
9:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like putting on a different character when you're on different stages.
9:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you've probably seen my Instagram.
9:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I do like, you know, like the recent event I did for President Dolam.
10:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's like classical and like Vietnamese traditional music.
10:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I was in the Aliyay.
10:10
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, very, it's a very different character than the answer and sex you would see if I was like either DJing or like,
10:18
[SPEAKER_01]: playing an event at a block party.
10:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
10:21
[SPEAKER_00]: There's an intention to how you present.
10:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
10:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And your aura needs, your focus needs to be different in the way you present yourself too.
10:30
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think musical theory really helps me with that.
10:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
10:33
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so excited to be talking to you because you are the new generation of Vietnam.
10:39
[SPEAKER_00]: But yet, you're American as well, you have American idea ideas.
10:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
10:45
[SPEAKER_00]: You're really the best of both worlds.
10:49
[SPEAKER_00]: How old were you when you left Vietnam?
10:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I left Vietnam by myself when I was 14.
10:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I went to high school in Idaho, called Idaho Arts.
11:01
[SPEAKER_00]: You, wow.
11:03
[SPEAKER_00]: You went to high school in Idaho, wow.
11:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you've been the mountains.
11:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, in mountains.
11:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm doing the way, like, who goes to school and I don't want, like, how do you end up in Idaho wild?
11:16
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a great art school.
11:17
[SPEAKER_01]: If you understand your kids to school?
11:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've been on a promotion.
11:20
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, I think I had a great experience at Idaho Arts.
11:23
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, they have summer camps for kids to, like every type of, this fashion, this inner arts, this visual arts, this film, photography, this music, classical music, jazz, production.
11:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I think 11, the wife cuts up 11, then there's like the end time.
11:49
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like 10.
11:50
[SPEAKER_01]: You got to go back to a room by 10.
11:52
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like so disciplined.
11:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Everybody's like locked in.
11:55
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's a boarding school.
11:56
[SPEAKER_01]: It is a boarding school.
11:57
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't even know.
11:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to have a boarding school that like cater to the arts.
12:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And how many kids, I'm so blown away right now, I'm sorry, I'm like, I'm so dumb right now, I'm like, I'm so dumb.
12:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, I live in my entire life.
12:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been to Idaho, yeah, yeah, it's so beautiful.
12:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm, yeah, it's a gorgeous place, a lot of artists and a lot of, but I didn't know there was, you know, when they say, oh, I was this year's old when I knew, you know.
12:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it's so crazy.
12:25
[SPEAKER_01]: They have this program called Jess in the court, wait, Jess in the court.
12:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Just in the pines, in Idaho, and it's a regular thing.
12:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's super famous.
12:37
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of kids go to Idaho Arts for summer camp, or like, so the actual school is like 350 people.
12:43
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not that many people, right?
12:45
[SPEAKER_00]: How did you find it?
12:48
[SPEAKER_01]: My uncle John he lives in a new port he helped us find the school and we so actually I when I moved here 14 I was gonna go to school in New York because you know when you're in a different country You looked up and was like oh my god, you're so cool
13:04
[SPEAKER_01]: New York LA.
13:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know which one.
13:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I was younger.
13:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like sky's grapefruit building fashion photography All these things like oh my god New York so cool But I was too young to be in New York like by myself 14 you cannot I don't think you you you you as a parent you wouldn't let your child go to New York by themselves when they were 14.
13:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think so we went to LA
13:30
[SPEAKER_01]: My family flew to LA to like go to Disney, Universal, just have fun, and then we accidentally found Ottawa Arts from my uncle John, and then we came to see it the next day, and then I found love with it.
13:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, this is it.
13:44
[SPEAKER_01]: That's it.
13:45
[SPEAKER_01]: So I went there, and that's the beginning of my U.S. journey.
13:50
[SPEAKER_00]: That is insane.
13:51
[SPEAKER_00]: What an insane story.
13:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm genuinely melted right now.
14:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I went to boring school.
14:01
[SPEAKER_00]: So I know how isolated that can be.
14:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I was 12.
14:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I remember that's where I learned guitar because all the other guys were playing guitar and we played piano and you learn those things but I can't imagine going to an all music or all art school and just it dominating your time after hours, right?
14:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Cause it just, and you all just got together and jam all the time I mean.
14:28
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just all arts and music happening all the time.
14:31
[SPEAKER_00]: No wonder the painting, the musical theater and all of it.
14:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
14:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Get it now.
14:36
[SPEAKER_00]: This is so unfair.
14:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Life is truly unfair.
14:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't even know what to say.
14:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, let's just stop this interview because there's nothing like, oh, hey, this is completely unfair.
14:49
[SPEAKER_00]: You have like such a, like a serious, like, advantage.
14:55
[SPEAKER_00]: When I think about like musicians, you think about like front loading the practice early on.
15:01
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can really get the scales in.
15:02
[SPEAKER_00]: You can really get the body connected to the mind and then you can start the expression down the road.
15:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And in 25, maybe really come into your own as a great, right?
15:16
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is where it begins.
15:17
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the stories, these legends really coming from Vietnam at 14, and being put into Idaho, it's, who asked, went to that school that we might know of in the world?
15:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you know, I forgot his name, famous upripe bass player, he sings, he did American Got Talent, I think, and the team was like in top five, I can send you names, but I don't think I can do anything.
15:44
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, because if you look at Berkeley, there's a lot of people that went to Berkeley that we know.
15:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I did that day today and me and my buddy were just like, yeah, there's always people that come from Berkeley, but Idaho is such a really wild story.
15:56
[SPEAKER_00]: So thank you for sharing that and allowing me to geek out
16:01
[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to go home, you're like, I don't know, it's crazy.
16:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And while you were there, what did you think you would land after those four years?
16:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
16:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, after I'd a while.
16:14
[SPEAKER_00]: During I'd a while, you're like, what am I doing with my life after this?
16:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, what was your trajectory that you were thinking about?
16:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I always knew that I wanted to go to Berkeley because my dad is a Berkeley alumni and I was fed into this idea of like, you have to go to Berkeley, Berkeley is a greatest school.
16:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Berkeley Berkeley Berkeley and it's like so familiar to me to a point where I'm like, I know that I want to go to Berkeley, it's so cool.
16:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And for a minute, I was like, maybe he's wrong, maybe I don't want to go to Berkeley.
16:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I was looking at NYU and New York and the new school in New York, but then I came and visited Berkeley my senior year of high school and I really, really liked it.
17:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, you're right.
17:02
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a really cool place.
17:04
[SPEAKER_00]: What made it beat out other places?
17:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you learn how to have a music program?
17:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, but it's either classical jazz.
17:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And Berkeley has everything you can think of.
17:17
[SPEAKER_01]: They have like electronic music.
17:19
[SPEAKER_01]: They have hip hop, just, they have rock, metal.
17:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Like literally a fusion or anything you can think of.
17:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I think Berkeley is like the place for you to have fun and learn the craft of being a musician and also get in your connections because everyone at Berkeley is so talented and there's so many different pools of genres
17:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think I went through so many different phases when I was at Berkeley.
17:50
[SPEAKER_01]: It really shaped me into who I am today.
17:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
17:56
[SPEAKER_00]: When I think about the levels of playing, right?
17:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think about you at Idaho, at 15 or 16, going, okay, that's the next level.
18:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you're thinking, oh, in the next and next level, and then you get to Berkeley and that, that there's constantly the next level, right?
18:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you feel like there's really a next level at where you are right now?
18:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Or is the next level something not about skills?
18:19
[SPEAKER_00]: It's about something else.
18:21
[SPEAKER_00]: So here's my question.
18:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you get a curriculum out of wild, then you get a curriculum at Berkeley and then they're like All right, you got to pass these classes and then you know like you got to go through all that and then at some point You're like at the clubs in New York and I'm watching you play and you're like all right, but is there another like level to playing or at this point?
18:42
[SPEAKER_00]: You're good enough Technically technical levels that you're gonna have technically, but on a sole level something has to happen differently
18:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I think about that a lot by myself and I think about that a lot when I was in college and like during my senior years in college, I'm like So if I don't go to grad school or if I don't go to grad school yet next year, what is my what is my next challenge and I think
19:08
[SPEAKER_01]: The real challenge is like, there's like, there's always like two paths of being a musician.
19:13
[SPEAKER_01]: One is like, you were a school, like you're very like school, like you used to learn things from school.
19:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And the other one, like they learned things at home, on YouTube, on the internet, on Instagram, threats, whatever.
19:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's no, I don't think that there's a different level on any of them, but yes, you're at a school and you learn all these information from like book and your professors, that's cool.
19:35
[SPEAKER_01]: But those people, they learn how to negotiate deals in real life.
19:39
[SPEAKER_01]: They learn how to deal with like the real life situation like you get.
19:43
[SPEAKER_01]: fucked over in the studio or like you get fucked over by a deal in real life.
19:47
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, I think that's really cool and important to learn to.
19:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what I haven't learned yet because I was so surrounded by this like safe bubble of like being in school all the time and like it's like a it's like a red carpet you know I'm like I'm walking on this about carpet and now it ends there and I'm like okay where do I go next?
20:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, OK, now I've got to learn how to be careful with the real-life stuff with us, all the real-life situations, how to say yes, how to say no.
20:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And learning how to say no is really difficult once you're out of school, because like, um...
20:23
[SPEAKER_01]: You might get tricked to a deal or you might get finessed or like you never know what's going to happen when you're in real life and no one's protecting you is you're not under school no one's telling you that's right or not you're by yourself and I think that that's my next challenge is to figure out
20:40
[SPEAKER_00]: your answer is not what I expected.
20:42
[SPEAKER_00]: It's nothing to do with technical skills, creativity, expression.
20:48
[SPEAKER_00]: It's about safety.
20:50
[SPEAKER_00]: It's about not getting screwed over in a contract.
20:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
20:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Which means that you probably feel like you're playing,
20:59
[SPEAKER_00]: your technical side or whatever it is is at the level that you you're like I'm good with this for the moment.
21:07
[SPEAKER_00]: But I want to make sure that that administrative side of your life is
21:14
[SPEAKER_00]: being handled in a way that is beneficial to you.
21:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, but also no, I think it's like, I don't think that my planes at a level that I can like, you know, like, stop practice and call a day that that's good enough.
21:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we always have to build different skills, but I guess my answer is like, now I'm developing a new skill set that I have not learned before.
21:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've not learned in school, which is like dealing with the real life situations, because like skill sets that you can learn from book from your professors, from friends, from school, like that, you can, you learn every day in your life, like you, I don't think you should stop learning, you should never stop learning new skills and developing your own skills.
21:55
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just like there's this, this is specific area of skills that you have to know and learn to not be screwed over.
22:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I don't think that that's talked about enough in music sometimes.
22:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a crazy business.
22:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm learning also new skillsets about like financially because when you're at school, you should in school.
22:14
[SPEAKER_01]: You're like, don't your parents still pay for your bills.
22:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Your parents still support you.
22:19
[SPEAKER_01]: You really learn too much about it.
22:21
[SPEAKER_01]: But now that I'm out of school and I'm like financially independent, I think it's really important for me to keep track and then like learn that skill set, that no one that ever taught me, school doesn't teach you that.
22:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
22:32
[SPEAKER_00]: So with this cultural side that David means think about artists and musicians and we all are repeated that there's no
22:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's debatable for me, I think if you really want it, you could do it.
22:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
23:00
[SPEAKER_00]: What is it about money and music that you have to really focus on as a young musician today to make money?
23:11
[SPEAKER_01]: All I can say is that there's so many different aspects of music and no one's
23:20
[SPEAKER_01]: artists, like the upfront.
23:22
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like, I want to make money out of music, but like, okay, so you try it, you're coming in an artist, but you can't make money as an artist.
23:30
[SPEAKER_01]: There's so many different life paths and ways surrounding music that you can do.
23:34
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not Berkeley, like teaches me, too, is that like there's so many different ways.
23:38
[SPEAKER_01]: You can be a sound engineer, the guy sells running front of house.
23:42
[SPEAKER_01]: You can make so much money from that.
23:43
[SPEAKER_01]: You can be the backstage guy who's running, you know,
23:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, auto tune for your artist, uh, like a, you know, the main guy.
23:54
[SPEAKER_01]: You can also make music from that.
23:56
[SPEAKER_01]: You can be a PR policies for an artist.
23:58
[SPEAKER_01]: You make money from that.
24:00
[SPEAKER_01]: You can make money from, I don't know, there's so much around music in the music culture that people are all talk about enough.
24:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, um.
24:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
24:11
[SPEAKER_00]: That's awesome that you say that.
24:12
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that your scope of seeing the music business is so wide.
24:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Your possibilities are endless.
24:21
[SPEAKER_00]: It sounds like to me.
24:22
[SPEAKER_00]: It reminds of this one clip.
24:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I talk about it every now and then on the podcast that there's this older gentleman a white guy with the beard and I think he's in his mid 60s and he says to the camera
24:37
[SPEAKER_00]: that the only way you can become a millionaire is through painting.
24:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, imagine, that's crazy, right?
24:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Imagine if that was our culture, the Vietnamese culture.
24:49
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, yo, Dr. Lawyer, that's not where the money is at.
24:52
[SPEAKER_00]: You wanna make a lot of money?
24:53
[SPEAKER_00]: You'd be a saxophone player.
24:55
[SPEAKER_00]: You'd be a painter.
24:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we create that reality for all of the generations to come.
25:01
[SPEAKER_00]: You wanna make money?
25:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Be a DJ producer in Atlanta.
25:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Proost for all these black people, right?
25:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is how you make another DJ.
25:11
[SPEAKER_01]: This is in Vietnamese.
25:13
[SPEAKER_00]: The confella DJ.
25:16
[SPEAKER_00]: OK, so scratch DJ.
25:17
[SPEAKER_00]: You've got a song.
25:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Kidding aside, if we are able to plant that in our future generations, saying that the only way you're going to make a lot of money is only through the arts.
25:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that's what's on my kids.
25:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, you're not going to make money like being a doctor.
25:33
[SPEAKER_00]: He made only like 200,000 a year.
25:38
[SPEAKER_00]: create some shit that's like so original and you can do it you just have to like focus on it and you have to like work as hard as a doctor works.
25:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Because artists we like to party we like to yell we like to get down we like to drink we like to smoke and we just like to be free and I think that that is not conducive to making them the big money but if we focus like doctors did
26:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And how much they've got to go to school?
26:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it sounds like you did it at Berkeley and I do well.
26:06
[SPEAKER_00]: So obviously, you're going to be able to channel that energy and make money the way the doctors do.
26:13
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just, I think it's just the reality that I think Vietnamese people don't think about, like musicians and artists and singers, we're just not as, we don't go hard.
26:22
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think at the top of the game in Vietnam and anywhere in the world, if you're practicing
26:28
[SPEAKER_00]: the level of like what doctors and lawyers do in school, you're going to make it.
26:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I also think of money as an energy exchange.
26:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
26:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I, like sometimes when you do something, maybe it doesn't make you money, but in exchange you have good relationship, good friendship, really good energy and like a good time.
26:52
[SPEAKER_01]: or sometimes when you do something that really, I guess as an artist or as a producer, like the artist really liked it and they have a good time with it, they're gonna pay you.
27:03
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's where the money comes in and of course, it's gonna be like deals and then goes she Asian tournament, that's where the knowledge needs to come in, the music business knowledge needs to come in.
27:15
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you, again, people are like, I can't make money out of,
27:19
[SPEAKER_01]: music.
27:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Have you tried this genre of music?
27:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you try that?
27:24
[SPEAKER_01]: This learn study and really understand it instead of just like sitting on it and stays where you are.
27:30
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's so let's just end this possibility.
27:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Really it's been money in music.
27:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I agree with that.
27:36
[SPEAKER_00]: So I really stand behind the creative business in Vietnamese culture, which I think is lacking.
27:45
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think we'll eventually get to the level of where like parents are pushing their kids to do creative shit, like they do.
27:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, creative stuff like the doctor track.
27:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to shift this conversation into a different place.
28:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to talk about Mao's Davis and Paul Train.
28:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go.
28:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to get down to that.
28:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Without denigrating, without degrading Vietnamese musicians in Vietnam.
28:16
[SPEAKER_00]: But I want to talk about the history of jazz playing in Vietnam in the modern age.
28:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Where did it start?
28:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I dare say that I think you're done going to Berkeley and playing jazz has a lot to do with the creation of that jazz scene in Vietnam.
28:37
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you do know more about its early arrival in Vietnam, I would love to hear it from you because you came from that.
28:46
[SPEAKER_00]: In Vietnamese, we say, the Gilaura, right?
28:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:50
[SPEAKER_00]: You come from the oven of this genre.
28:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, I don't know the origin of where like how jazz came to Vietnam fully, but I what I know or from my perspective, I think I know that my dad went to Berkeley and he came back and we he built the very first jazz club in Ho Chi Minh City and it's called Saxon Art Jazz Club.
29:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And that became the place where people play a lot of like classic jazz, a lot of standards, a lot of just a place for people to have fun and hang out and play music.
29:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And then so it became like a tours hub.
29:36
[SPEAKER_01]: The tourists can even come up and play with them if they sign up to like jam.
29:41
[SPEAKER_01]: It was like a thing.
29:42
[SPEAKER_01]: It was really cool.
29:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I really like growing up on a second floor of a jazz club.
29:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I really appreciate learning about that culture learning about jazz back then.
29:51
[SPEAKER_01]: but I also do know that in Hanoi, it's like where the biggest jazz hub is and that's where like all the bebop player, like everyone's practicing really intensely and like grinding.
30:07
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a famous jazz club in Hanoi, too, called Ming Ming Jazz Club, where a lot of, less you, where a lot of like famous and good jazz player in Vietnam would come and hang out.
30:19
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, there's like two spots in two different cities in Vietnam, but our family's jazz club kind of shifted into a different, so we, we kind of,
30:34
[SPEAKER_01]: branch it out a little bit and introduce traditional Vietnamese music into the jazz music introduce more fusion into the jazz music that we play at the jazz club because it's my dad's dream to bridge the gap between like gallume and like because we this this is my third generation I'm the third generation of my family that does music and my umma used to do gallume music
31:02
[SPEAKER_01]: So he wanted to bridge that gap between the two culture, between jazz and galloon.
31:08
[SPEAKER_01]: So he really, that was his dream from the beginning.
31:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Like he learned, he loved jazz so much, but he was trying to find a way to bridge that together, create a hybrid.
31:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And he did, and that's what the Jazz Club is like ongoing right now.
31:23
[SPEAKER_01]: It's in district two right now, we relocated, and now every weekend, he's performing fusion music.
31:33
[SPEAKER_01]: So there will be like a big gong where my mom was just like playing bang on it, and then there's like
31:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and yeah, and they would play jazz music, and I can send you some songs and references.
31:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, but they would play jazz music with the fusion, Vietnamese, traditional elements.
32:00
[SPEAKER_00]: So when you were growing up, was there a lot of, I mean, even now, was there a lot of improvisation?
32:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Happening on the second floor?
32:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
32:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I have the first floor.
32:08
[SPEAKER_01]: First floor?
32:09
[SPEAKER_00]: First floor.
32:10
[SPEAKER_01]: I think jazz is all about improvisation.
32:12
[SPEAKER_00]: But even when they're playing standards?
32:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
32:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Really?
32:17
[SPEAKER_00]: and how other than your dad, but like, was it good?
32:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, can we, can we define what good means in that context of Vietnamese musicians playing jazz in Vietnam?
32:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, how would you kind of, again, I don't want to like put a quality, qualitative element on it, but was it, how did it feel to you?
32:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's good.
32:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's so good, but it is not our culture.
32:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
32:47
[SPEAKER_01]: So, when something's not your culture and you love it to a point where you study and you spend your whole life study it and you chase it and you learn it, it's not your culture.
32:59
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like a second hand.
33:01
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like you're really learning and I really appreciate the people that learn studying jazz to become a jazz musician but it's not your culture.
33:08
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's something about it that I still to this day don't understand what sauce we're missing.
33:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Like there's a sauce that we're missing part of the conversation that I love This part of the conversation This is my favorite part of the conversation.
33:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll get because we talked about it in New York if ever We talked about this.
33:26
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
33:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's just get down to the question.
33:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go.
33:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I asked you The first time I met you has said
33:33
[SPEAKER_00]: When you hear jazz music, can you distinguish between a Vietnamese and black person?
33:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And you said, yeah, and I've asked other people, gee, I think I've asked them, you know, to the guitar, jazz guitars, and he said the same thing.
33:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And he've also mentioned the special sauce, too, in his own way.
33:53
[SPEAKER_00]: He did mention that.
33:55
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you think that is?
33:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a swag.
33:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you think we're gonna ever have it?
34:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think we have different swag.
34:04
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, we love different sauces than them.
34:08
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, if you like Mum Thong and you can't enforce a foreigner to like it or like they don't grow up with it, they don't have it.
34:14
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't understand.
34:17
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like we're like doing, during, and I was like, we're like, during, and they can't stand a smell of it.
34:22
[SPEAKER_00]: So is there a, I can't use a word funk because funk is funk, but funk on the smell of like Monroe, that's like a real smell that is not related to music funk.
34:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
34:35
[SPEAKER_00]: But is there a funky element to Vietnamese jazz?
34:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I think if you, so I think of,
34:44
[SPEAKER_01]: music.
34:45
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a learning music is like learning a different language because it's a different language and you have to have ears.
34:53
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like learning the alphabet and you listen to someone says this so you can say it again.
34:59
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're a baby you're like if you have a baby you got to teach someone to say that word for them to say it.
35:05
[SPEAKER_01]: They can't just like automatically say it, right?
35:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you got to teach them, train them, and it's the same with music.
35:12
[SPEAKER_01]: And for jazz, it's like learning all these like vocabularies in bebop, all these language in jazz, all these scales.
35:19
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't listen to somebody that plays that.
35:21
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't just play it by yourself.
35:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And all the people that we listen to are like Bill Evans, Charlie Parker, DeFlanius Monk, like all these great artists that
35:34
[SPEAKER_01]: have been passed down the language of jazz to like millions of jazz musicians.
35:40
[SPEAKER_01]: We have to listen to them to learn the language of jazz.
35:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but at some point, a copy is not a copy, but a copy begins to be an original.
35:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess what I'm trying to say is, well, you ever be an original that has the imprint
36:01
[SPEAKER_01]: But I would never want to be an American jazz player.
36:05
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the problem.
36:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think anybody does or anybody.
36:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, maybe someone does.
36:10
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know anybody.
36:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think anybody should.
36:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you should keep your identity.
36:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Like keep yourself different.
36:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Because if you were just gonna play like Charlie Parker, I would rather just buy a Charlie Parker CD.
36:22
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, well, what if you wanted to hear Charlie Parker's third generation?
36:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And because that guy's mixing it with the loneliest monk and all right, you.
36:31
[SPEAKER_01]: So then you are you.
36:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, right, okay.
36:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Now that you have a hybrid, you're you because you're learning all these language from all these people and you hybrid that you become you.
36:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay.
36:40
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how happy people train.
36:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, hi.
36:44
[SPEAKER_00]: It's another recovery.
36:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I know.
36:46
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, but like, so you, you're just not one person because Charlie Parker is Charlie Parker.
36:52
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you copy him 100%, you're just like, it's just like you're good enough to copy to a point where you're a Charlie Parker.
36:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I would rather just buy a Charlie Parker D. And all of this stuff, how much of it is sold?
37:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And how much is a technical playing?
37:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
37:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I prefer, I think this is a preference question.
37:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I prefer a soul.
37:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, because a player can have all these technicals, but without a soul and their playing, I don't think that it can deliver well to the artist, because then you just playing music for yourself.
37:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, then what makes a good soul?
37:34
[SPEAKER_00]: What makes somebody have good soul to you?
37:38
[SPEAKER_00]: What drives that quality up for you?
37:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's the way that you deliver.
37:46
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like speaking, it's the way that you speak to someone, the way that you deliver your message, the way that you deliver the melodies and you play, the notes that you choose, it's the liberty.
37:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I get it.
37:59
[SPEAKER_00]: It's space, right, in between what you pause, what you've owned on and how you talk.
38:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
38:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
38:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Interesting.
38:07
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, if I talk like a robot, like, but that's like, the technique is that the words that I choose.
38:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And if I talk like an AI or just like a robot, then I don't have to solve.
38:20
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you feel when you're playing that night in New York?
38:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's all black people up on stage.
38:26
[SPEAKER_00]: It's all like, I mean, there's a rotation of just nothing, but brothers and sisters, it's all black.
38:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, there's this one Vietnamese young ass woman up on stage.
38:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, this is great.
38:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I got videos of it, too.
38:42
[SPEAKER_01]: It's nice to meet, I forgot about it.
38:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Can I cut it in?
38:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, put it in.
38:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Are we going to cut it and remind me we'll cut it in because I want people to see it was like It's crazy.
38:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
38:54
[SPEAKER_00]: How does that make you feel when you're amongst those peers?
39:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it made me feel appreciate it and I feel appreciate it.
39:06
[SPEAKER_01]: like I appreciate them for letting me a space to be there, to play their music, and to teach me their music at the same time.
39:15
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like allowing someone new in your space, and I felt like I was welcome.
39:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I was very welcome.
39:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, I've been traveling to New York when I was younger, like getting to know the jazz scene in New York and like playing music in New York.
39:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it,
39:35
[SPEAKER_01]: It's definitely very rare to see an Asian woman, an Asian woman that play like an instrument.
39:42
[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember when this funny during COVID, I was, I'm allowed to say this, but I was under age, but I was managed to get into small jascals, but I've had you been to New York or New York.
39:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I have.
39:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been with a few.
39:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I was super underage and I was like, I made friends, talked to my way into getting in there and then nobody cared because I'm just, I guess.
40:08
[SPEAKER_01]: But then I pulled out my saxophone and I started playing at the gym, it's like at the one AM or two AM.
40:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And just when it gets going off?
40:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's going off.
40:18
[SPEAKER_00]: The club is going off, okay.
40:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the club's going off and I just, I'm just playing.
40:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I played and then everyone's like, wow, we did not expect
40:27
[SPEAKER_01]: an Asian girl to play saxophone, jazz saxophone that well, and I was like, wow, I mean, yes, jazz do exist in our country and like, yeah, we learn the culture, we learn about the music, and I do happen to learn at the same time.
40:42
[SPEAKER_01]: So they, I felt very welcome after that.
40:46
[SPEAKER_01]: So I keep coming back to small.
40:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I keep coming back to the place, I make more friends, and I
40:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I think they, for them, they are like, wow, like it's crazy that Vietnam would play jazz.
41:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Like Vietnam would listen to jazz and play jazz.
41:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And they don't know.
41:03
[SPEAKER_01]: You know?
41:05
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm gonna ask you not to be humble in this next answer.
41:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
41:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I got an easy not to be humble.
41:10
[SPEAKER_00]: When you go back to Vietnam and you play and your second third generation musician, your family, you must be like smoking hot, doing what you do.
41:20
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you make other musicians feel?
41:23
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you think they feel about you?
41:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I think they appreciate me.
41:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I think my friends, I hope, like I've had conversation with them.
41:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes they would joke and they'd be like, don't go home, you're gonna get us all fired.
41:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, because you might... Like, steal their job.
41:39
[SPEAKER_01]: But at the same time, they're like, please come home, like, we want to learn things, but you're at the same time, I have things to learn from them too, because they have so much experience performing.
41:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, well, what can you learn from them?
41:51
[SPEAKER_01]: They have so many chances to perform big concerts, there's so many concerts happening right now and it's like another different kind of skill set that I don't have the chance to learn yet.
42:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I have performed on big stages, but not as much as them.
42:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it's a totally different skill set.
42:09
[SPEAKER_00]: What can you describe that?
42:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And now I'm not, again, I'm not here to put down the VMI scene.
42:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I just want to know what you see and what you are describing that you can learn from Vietnam.
42:23
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I also think about this a lot.
42:25
[SPEAKER_01]: If I come back to Vietnam right now, I would really struggle with the way that the industry is running right now.
42:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I know how fast the pace is.
42:36
[SPEAKER_01]: and how, I guess, like, we're because every good musician is being booked like every good and train musician are being booked out like they're so busy playing music festival.
42:52
[SPEAKER_01]: They're recording they're so busy.
42:54
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no one that could, you could, you know, be free to create with.
42:59
[SPEAKER_01]: because everyone's like grinding.
43:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Be guiding.
43:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
43:03
[SPEAKER_01]: So every time I go home, they're like, thank you for bringing and you'll fresh air back home.
43:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm like, bring all these like cool elements and like new music that I make with people here and show them.
43:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And they show me the music that they make.
43:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, wow, it's like,
43:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't get to experience that part of life and then you don't get to experience this kind of life that I'm living.
43:22
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's kind of a very cool culture exchange.
43:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you ever feel like you're missing out in Vietnam and do you ever feel like you're not getting enough here and you'd rather be in Vietnam or is it you've accepted that you're not going to get whatever you're not going to get from
43:41
[SPEAKER_01]: That's crazy because I wish I always wish that there was an easier way to commute back home because there's so much to do and I missed out on so many things at home.
43:52
[SPEAKER_01]: We're also at the same time.
43:53
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not a noi.
43:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I get to do the things that I wouldn't be able to get if I was in Vietnam.
44:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm very lucky to be able to do these things in the US right now.
44:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm scoring these for people in New York and LA, which are coming soon.
44:11
[SPEAKER_01]: So hopefully that's amazing.
44:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I'm, but at the same time, like I've said no to so many things in Vietnam that I wish that if I, if there was an easier way to commute home, I would totally do it.
44:25
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know, maybe in the future, this away, to, to bridge that, like, I want to be able to bridge, like US and Vietnam and work like, um, virtually.
44:37
[SPEAKER_01]: So everybody could create and connect together.
44:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
44:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
44:42
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't want to go back to your father's relationship with you.
44:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Was there ever a time even before now that you feel like
44:52
[SPEAKER_00]: the pressure to be just as good as he was, or even the reverse of like, oh, now you're better than him.
44:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what is the dynamic like with the guy who went to Berkeley decades before you were in this?
45:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, what is the sort of like the dynamics that you experience with him?
45:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, yeah.
45:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I would ever call myself better than him.
45:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Really?
45:20
[SPEAKER_01]: He's a, I think he's a legend and he stays the legend.
45:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And you're just saying that though.
45:25
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, the thing is because I value him and I look up to him so much, I decided not to pursue.
45:32
[SPEAKER_01]: But he's not just that, not just because of him, but it's like I've decided to pursue a different path.
45:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Then just focusing on jazz saxophone and the saxophone.
45:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Like he has a dying love for the saxophone.
45:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And I love saxophone as my best friend, as in like a tool, an instrument.
45:52
[SPEAKER_01]: But I start doing all these production work.
45:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I focus on doing more like film scoring, production work, music, advertising and music for the people.
46:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it differentiates me from my dad.
46:05
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's no competition.
46:07
[SPEAKER_01]: So we don't butt-head, you know?
46:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Wait, so that's a conscious decision you have to make?
46:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Or was it a natural thing that just, you're like, I don't know, I don't want to go in that direction.
46:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a conscious decision that I made with myself because if I wanted to just keep learning and practicing this saxophone, I totally could have.
46:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Does he know this?
46:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
46:32
[SPEAKER_00]: You guys have a discussion about this?
46:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, hey, you might think that I should keep going and be better than you and be the greatest of all time, but I'm making a decision not to do that.
46:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, do you guys talk about that?
46:44
[SPEAKER_01]: We did, but I, so this is how I told them.
46:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, hey,
46:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I will ever be better than you.
46:51
[SPEAKER_01]: I should or like I don't want to go and that route.
46:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I don't I think I don't want I don't want to like I think I respect him and and he should stay being the greatest.
47:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I pursue a different path.
47:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
47:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
47:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Roni, I don't know if I'm getting to the bottom of this, but we're gonna leave it at that for a minute.
47:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think it's interesting.
47:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And when I think about your father being the great, the greatest in Vietnam, is he still practicing and still going at it?
47:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
47:26
[SPEAKER_00]: How does he get better in your opinion and your thoughts?
47:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, how can when you get to that level, how can you be even better than that?
47:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Well he had a stroke in 2021 and it basically resets his skillset and he had to relearn the saxophone.
47:44
[SPEAKER_01]: The first thing that he asked when he woke up from the ICU was where like where's my saxophone, where's my wife, where's my kids.
47:51
[SPEAKER_01]: like he wanted to play the saxophone so badly that when the doctors were like, you can't play it, it's gonna blow your brain up, don't do it.
47:59
[SPEAKER_01]: He was like, I'd rather die than not play the saxophone.
48:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
48:03
[SPEAKER_01]: So he kept playing, but he had to relearn.
48:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Now if you watch videos of him, he's a little shaky, like because from the stroke, he's a little shaky, but relearning the skill set and relearning the saxophone really helped him.
48:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Really?
48:16
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's minus sharp because he had to relearn the whole instrument itself.
48:22
[SPEAKER_01]: So I feel like that for him is a new level.
48:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Because at his age, learning something new again for the beginning with your muscle memory, like, but you have to make conscious decision and like conscious thoughts of like, oh, we're practicing this.
48:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
48:37
[SPEAKER_01]: There are lights that I'm like, oh my god, it's 10.
48:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you should go to sleep.
48:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Why are you up practicing?
48:43
[SPEAKER_01]: But he's like, I need to get this back.
48:45
[SPEAKER_01]: He was like, this is my life, like, I need to get it back.
48:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just felt so, like, I felt touch and at the same time, like, really sad that happened to him.
48:55
[SPEAKER_01]: But also, like, really thankful that he's alive and well, you know.
49:01
[SPEAKER_01]: But yes, the man is still practicing, the man's grinding, the man's like buying new books.
49:09
[SPEAKER_00]: That's so inspiring.
49:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, so inspiring.
49:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Vietnam's new chapter, the music scene, it's a two-part question.
49:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Where do you think it's at right now?
49:23
[SPEAKER_00]: and then the question I always ask musicians like how do we beat the damn Koreans.
49:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And I love the Koreans.
49:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I love what they've done to entertainment in Asia and the world.
49:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And I love the fact that I
49:38
[SPEAKER_00]: when I go out into the world and when I'm dating and all these American women, whatever color they are, they look at Asian men and a completely different light than how they looked at me in the 90s.
49:50
[SPEAKER_00]: So I appreciate everything about BTS and G-Dragon and all these guys.
49:55
[SPEAKER_00]: So I have a lot of love, a lot of love.
49:57
[SPEAKER_00]: But Vietnamese people, we need a kick-smasse too.
50:00
[SPEAKER_00]: So that is part of my conversation.
50:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so what's the first question?
50:04
[SPEAKER_00]: The first question, where is Vietnam right now?
50:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what does it look like to you?
50:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't sugarcote either.
50:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure if you're going to get it.
50:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I want to hear all of the warts.
50:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to hear all of the yes and sue.
50:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to hear all of that ugliness and the beauty of it.
50:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to hear all of it.
50:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I want to hear, hopefully you can make a jump over to like.
50:25
[SPEAKER_00]: How far are we from beating the Koreans at their game?
50:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think the Vietnamese art industry and music industry is growing and at a pace like a really fast pace.
50:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone is doing game shows, reality shows, all these amazing platforms to help boost an artist.
50:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we're learning a lot from the Koreans and the Chinese.
50:52
[SPEAKER_01]: We're learning how to do commercial music.
50:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think we're at a transitional point where like, okay, like, rap via, it was like the biggest thing from 2020 to 2023, four.
51:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was like, like, rap has been in Vietnam for so many years.
51:09
[SPEAKER_01]: But people really, the mass audience really pay attention to it because it went viral.
51:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And I guess like, more mainstream in 2020, after when the show got introduced to people.
51:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And now we have more shows like that, which helps push the music industry faster.
51:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that so much is happening, like maybe too much is happening.
51:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm kind of lost in the sauce, but at the same time, really shocked to see how fast and big
51:46
[SPEAKER_01]: all my friends, I guess, I became after when I left home for like just a minute.
51:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, wow, like your superstar now, after a year or two, it's insane.
52:00
[SPEAKER_01]: There's some people that I know from like seventh grade that once that reality show and become superstar now and like we go in the street and everyone's like, I'm like, oh wow, it's crazy to see that.
52:13
[SPEAKER_01]: But so the media and Vietnam is pushing all these new artists really well and everyone's growing really fast.
52:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And I hope that they stay growing because without the media it's really hard for an artist to say consistent.
52:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, that's interesting answer though, without the media.
52:36
[SPEAKER_00]: it's hard to keep the artist growing.
52:38
[SPEAKER_00]: So what are you saying?
52:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you saying that the media has a lot to do with raising artists, pushing the brands of an artist, even stopping their careers?
52:50
[SPEAKER_00]: That's just your saying.
52:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
52:52
[SPEAKER_00]: What makes the media fall out of love with artists?
52:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a talent plus the media because I know those people, they're so talented.
53:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And people don't, people are back in the days didn't know them yet because they didn't know them promote numbers, no big company behind them, like no one's promoting them.
53:09
[SPEAKER_01]: So like nobody knows who they are yet.
53:11
[SPEAKER_01]: But with the help of these companies, with the help of promotions and PR, they has really become like, you know, they're really blown into this huge, huge star.
53:24
[SPEAKER_00]: But what would the media do to stop that for certain artists?
53:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, what would he do to stop?
53:30
[SPEAKER_01]: If they get to a, like a trouble, like if they can make it.
53:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And they have to, and the artists, you don't think the artists have, this is interesting to me because, are you saying that the artists don't have an alternative to the media and can't they do it in a different way?
53:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Why would the media control them in that way?
53:53
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you mean?
53:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess what I'm saying is like, when I think about like an artist, how can you contain them?
54:00
[SPEAKER_00]: If they're good, they're gonna be good.
54:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Why would the media influence their rise in their fall, right?
54:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Unless they just on the down hill?
54:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I guess like the media helps push them.
54:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
54:13
[SPEAKER_01]: You're a good artist.
54:14
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, I think about this as like, there's two people selling the same product or like fresh produce.
54:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
54:22
[SPEAKER_01]: one is like at a rank and corner on the street and you don't get promoted nobody knows one it's like flyers everywhere and then like promotions on Instagram like hey good orange juice here from 2 to 5 or like free orange juice to 5 come everyone's gonna come to that instead of this brand I'm like
54:42
[SPEAKER_01]: place that nobody knows about and that's what I mean when like PR and promotions really comes in and those artists that were like I guess not promoted doesn't get as much attention.
54:56
[SPEAKER_00]: What do we need to do as a Vietnamese artist to get the attention to get the PR machine, the media machine to work for you?
55:04
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to be good or you're good and you have to have money.
55:13
[SPEAKER_00]: money.
55:14
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're saying that, I mean, it sounds like America too.
55:17
[SPEAKER_00]: It sounds like everywhere.
55:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So you have that money from your family or like, where does that money come from?
55:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I think those artists have big companies behind them, that pace for the publishing, and I mean, pace for the promotion of PR and marketing.
55:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's where they really grow and glow, I guess.
55:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
55:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's here and there are some artists that would pay out of pocket.
55:43
[SPEAKER_01]: But like, I mean, if you're rich and you can do that, and if you're a Neppo baby and like, you have helped from your family great.
55:55
[SPEAKER_01]: most of the artists that I know that I see the company really help them.
56:00
[SPEAKER_00]: So now when you pull backward, back out and you think about on a national international stage that it's all about the money, right?
56:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Because if it's truly all about the money, shouldn't the government be putting money into ours?
56:18
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just like the Korean government.
56:20
[SPEAKER_00]: If you think about it, that's really the difference between South Korea and the rest of the world.
56:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that the South Koreans put money behind it?
56:29
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why when that told them things happening in New York and you're on, you know, and the concert.
56:34
[SPEAKER_00]: the soft power of that.
56:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope that the government recognizes that art is a soft power.
56:43
[SPEAKER_00]: And that Dolom's administration should be putting art money into art, money into performers.
56:48
[SPEAKER_01]: They do.
56:49
[SPEAKER_00]: They do.
56:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they do.
56:50
[SPEAKER_01]: The thing is, they do.
56:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I did not know this.
56:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know that Dolom is a huge art and music fan.
56:56
[SPEAKER_00]: They did not know.
56:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, he is, he is, he is.
56:59
[SPEAKER_00]: You think they're diverting funds into this?
57:05
[SPEAKER_01]: not found it but I heard from a source that he put together the orchestra and like the orchestra would travel wherever he like have you know important so he likes music he does he loves music and art yeah I need to double check my source but like I heard that he like put together
57:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's a good sign because, you know, everybody in the entertainment industry knows that, you know, the South Korea's government has been putting money into their industry for many, many years and many, many millions of dollars to grow that industry and why they need to feed hardware.
57:50
[SPEAKER_00]: They need a good entertainment to feed LGTV's Samsung, all the product that was coming out of South Korea needed to have really good content for people to buy it.
58:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's like an ecosystem that they thought about.
58:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't want to think that there's any TV brands that are coming out of Vietnam or any hardware that's coming out of Vietnam.
58:10
[SPEAKER_00]: But damn, if we can export music and film and culture and our society, I mean, that what a way to go.
58:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I think, I think the biggest difference for me is Korea, they're targeting, not just Korea, but internationally, but the music in Vietnam, I think, staying a little too local.
58:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And yes, yet mass audience, a lot of fans in Vietnam, but I don't think that we're at the place where we're targeting international market yet.
58:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I think hopefully the younger kids will start thinking about that, because I think the sub-in and the Benz generation is probably still focusing very locally, but hopefully the ones that are younger coming up is probably going to see.
59:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there's a lot of potentials at home.
59:03
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of potentials at home.
59:04
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of great talents at home.
59:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a lot of great talent.
59:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Where are you headed?
59:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Where am I heading?
59:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, where do you want to be?
59:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Where do you see yourself?
59:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I think where I'm out right now, I am working in film industry.
59:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm scoring for film and advertisement.
59:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And I am collaborating with artists here, mainly working as a producer.
59:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I play this saxophone for special events and I play this saxophone as my best friend again.
59:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And I still urge to perform.
59:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And I do love performing to put out music.
59:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think,
59:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just creating.
59:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm at a point where I'm like focusing on creating with people that, you know, new people that I meet here, making friends and connection because I'm here for another like three years.
59:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, okay.
59:55
[SPEAKER_01]: My visa.
59:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I'm enjoying, I guess, enjoying my time and my life while working in the entertainment industry here.
1:00:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I want to, um,
1:00:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Let you know that I welcome you to come back.
1:00:11
[SPEAKER_00]: If you have a show, a sax show, a film that's coming out, anything that you want to come back.
1:00:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I think that film scoring is something that I am terribly terribly interested.
1:00:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm really big.
1:00:28
[SPEAKER_00]: love for film music.
1:00:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I listen to film music almost every day in my car and when I drive and when you're thinking space, I put on any of them more economy and listen to film scores a lot.
1:00:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's a whole thing that we can talk about and film scores coming out of Vietnam and
1:00:47
[SPEAKER_00]: the details that you have to kind of understand and shift into as you're scoring for films.
1:00:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
1:00:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:00:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for coming on today.
1:00:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Appreciate you so much and I do hope to see you again soon and we can pick up another part of the conversation.
1:01:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for having me.
1:01:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there anything I left off?
1:01:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Left out?
1:01:07
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
1:01:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to the Vietnamese with Kenneth Wynne.
1:01:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Special thanks to Brittany Tran, to Jane Wynne, Catherine Wynne, Tina Fam, Sydney Jamie and Crystal Tran.
1:01:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Please find us on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok at the Vietnamese podcast.