Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / We Are Live, Late Night @ Murder House: Idaho Student Murders

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We Are Live, Late Night @ Murder House: Idaho Student Murders · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Hi, guys, we are here
0:16
Speaker 1: in Idaho, camped out right in front of the murder scene.
0:24
Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to
0:27
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation
0:30
Speaker 1: in series xeleven. We specifically wanted to come here at
0:35
Speaker 1: night to see what the killer saw. And I've just
0:41
Speaker 1: got to tell you, I'm completely blown away. It's so
0:46
Speaker 1: different than anything you see in the photos or the
0:52
Speaker 1: aerial shots we're seeing on TV. I just went up
0:58
Speaker 1: this hill behind the murder scene, behind the murder house,
1:04
Speaker 1: and I took a video on my phone and Jackie,
1:09
Speaker 1: could you play the video? I just took a few
1:11
Speaker 1: moments ago. I'm here behind the murder scene right now,
1:16
Speaker 1: and you can see straight into the girl's place. This
1:21
Speaker 1: is the parking lot we've been hearing about, right behind
1:24
Speaker 1: their home. I mean it's right here. It's a lot,
1:31
Speaker 1: a lot tighter. I'm a lot smaller than you think,
1:38
Speaker 1: and just looking up here, I feel like you can
1:43
Speaker 1: see straight into their home. These girls never had a
1:46
Speaker 1: chance against a predator. They really did not. Guys, again,
1:51
Speaker 1: thanks for being with us. I want to go straight
1:53
Speaker 1: out to a special guest joining us. Joining me is
1:58
Speaker 1: Chris McDonough, director of the Old Case Foundation. I found
2:03
Speaker 1: him on the interview room on YouTube. Chris, it's exactly
2:06
Speaker 1: like you were trying to tell me. I mean, this
2:09
Speaker 1: guy would have to know exactly where he was going.
2:13
Speaker 1: And the driving here is really tight. I'm surprised people
2:18
Speaker 1: don't wreck just trying to pass each other going two
2:21
Speaker 1: different ways, the driveway up past the murder scene and
2:25
Speaker 1: circling around the murder scene to the back parking lot
2:29
Speaker 1: that I'm talking about. It's very hard to imagine two
2:33
Speaker 1: big SUVs passing each other. The streets are very narrow,
2:38
Speaker 1: there's snow banks all around us, the pavement is slick
2:44
Speaker 1: with frozen ice. But the thing is, Chris mcdonney, you
2:49
Speaker 1: can look straight into their bedrooms. You can see everything. Yeah, Nancy,
2:54
Speaker 1: And to think, you know, as we've been discussing on
2:58
Speaker 1: your shelf for weeks now this, to think about the
3:05
Speaker 1: twelve times his alleged phone was going off in that
3:11
Speaker 1: environment and then kind of process a process that with
3:17
Speaker 1: what is he doing? I mean, there's got to be
3:19
Speaker 1: a fantasy process going on here of voyeurism at some point.
3:25
Speaker 1: I mean, it is, it's that close, isn't it? Yeah,
3:28
Speaker 1: it really is. And I thought that there was a
3:31
Speaker 1: copse of trees right behind their home. Well, it's not
3:35
Speaker 1: really that much. I would say there's maybe seven or
3:38
Speaker 1: eight spindlely trees. I mean, that is no impediment whatsoever
3:43
Speaker 1: to a predator trying to look at the girls in
3:46
Speaker 1: that home. We have been out walking the streets of
3:50
Speaker 1: Moscow today and we went to the Mad Greek. When
3:56
Speaker 1: we first walked up, and say, it was a somber atmosphere,
4:01
Speaker 1: but it was really quiet and low key, almost peaceful.
4:07
Speaker 1: And when we walked up, there is a let me
4:12
Speaker 1: just say, a remembrance of the four victims out front
4:16
Speaker 1: with candles and people are adding flowers and inside I
4:21
Speaker 1: just sat there and listen to the music they were
4:24
Speaker 1: playing and took it all in and I could just
4:27
Speaker 1: see the girls working there. I saw their coworkers, and
4:33
Speaker 1: I wonder how much their murders have torn the fabric
4:38
Speaker 1: of this community. Also joining me is Cheryl McCollum, founder
4:42
Speaker 1: and director of the Cold Case Research Institute and star
4:45
Speaker 1: of Zone seven, a new hit Podcastyl it's very eerie
4:52
Speaker 1: actually walking around this college town. Everybody's so peaceful and
4:58
Speaker 1: friendly to imagine that is the backdrop for just incredible
5:04
Speaker 1: violence right behind me. I mean, Cheryl, you must have
5:08
Speaker 1: seen the video of the cleaners taking out bloody mattresses
5:14
Speaker 1: right behind me. Yes, And I've seen your videos today.
5:18
Speaker 1: And Nancy, what is so important about what you are doing?
5:23
Speaker 1: Nothing takes the place of boots on the ground. And
5:28
Speaker 1: when you were a prosecutor, that was one of the
5:30
Speaker 1: things you were the best at. You would meet us
5:33
Speaker 1: on seen you would talk to us about this is
5:37
Speaker 1: the crime scene, but what's just over the other side
5:40
Speaker 1: in those trees, what's to the left and to the
5:43
Speaker 1: right and behind it? And what you're able to determine?
5:46
Speaker 1: Where was his watch area? And that's something you and
5:49
Speaker 1: I talked about week one. He watched, he studied, he thought,
5:55
Speaker 1: And now you're tracing his steps and that is powerful.
6:00
Speaker 1: Looking off to the side and right here is the
6:03
Speaker 1: incline leading up to the back of the house. And whatso,
6:09
Speaker 1: how can I say this probative about what I'm seeing
6:13
Speaker 1: is when you go to the front of the house,
6:15
Speaker 1: you could be spotted. But when you start walking up
6:17
Speaker 1: this incline to my right, nobody can see you. We
6:23
Speaker 1: have been walking up and down in the dark and
6:25
Speaker 1: there are apartments all around us. I guarantee you nobody
6:29
Speaker 1: noticed us. Nobody could see us. It's not let up
6:32
Speaker 1: at all. There are no street lights up there and
6:35
Speaker 1: behind them. It's like a predator's dream platform, you know.
6:40
Speaker 1: To doctor Angela Arnold joining me. She is a renowned
6:44
Speaker 1: psychiatrist joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction at Angela
6:48
Speaker 1: Arnold MD dot com. Angie, I couldn't help. When I
6:53
Speaker 1: was up there on that parking lot right behind this home,
6:59
Speaker 1: I thought about a deer stand. I'm not a hunter,
7:04
Speaker 1: but I've seen a lot of deer stands growing up
7:07
Speaker 1: in the country. It's the perfect vantage point to look
7:12
Speaker 1: down on an innocent prey that has no idea you're there.
7:18
Speaker 1: I mean, you can watch them from a deer stand
7:22
Speaker 1: as long as you want and they'll have no idea.
7:25
Speaker 1: And that's all I can think about there in that
7:27
Speaker 1: parking lot. And he did it at least twelve times. See,
7:33
Speaker 1: I mean, he was stalking these girls. It's so creepy
7:39
Speaker 1: and so scary for all young girls going to college everywhere.
7:43
Speaker 1: If you ask me, well, the mind of a predator
7:46
Speaker 1: that would go up there and stare at them, and
7:48
Speaker 1: I'm glad you said at least twelve times. I caught
7:51
Speaker 1: that in the PC probab will cause warrant after David
7:54
Speaker 1: at least twelve times. And this is really interesting, and
7:59
Speaker 1: everybody up in when you have a thought, Cheryl, you know,
8:03
Speaker 1: at the very get go, I said, listen, this is
8:06
Speaker 1: going to be an exhaustive task. It will take meticulous working.
8:11
Speaker 1: But what they really need to do is a cell
8:13
Speaker 1: tower data dump, which means you get all of the
8:18
Speaker 1: cells that are around the area. Hold on, my papers
8:22
Speaker 1: are flying away within a certain couple of hours. And
8:26
Speaker 1: I now found out, and now find out they did that,
8:30
Speaker 1: but they didn't see Coberger's phone. And now we know
8:34
Speaker 1: it's because he left. He turned his phone off when
8:36
Speaker 1: he was leaving his home, his apartment in Pullment, and
8:41
Speaker 1: that has been verified by the cell phone records. So
8:45
Speaker 1: he had this thing planned down to a t. He did.
8:50
Speaker 1: But Nancy, that's going to come back to biting because
8:53
Speaker 1: you and I always talk about patterns, patterns, patterns. How
8:57
Speaker 1: often did he shut his phone off or put it
9:00
Speaker 1: on airplane mode? I bet not very often? So why
9:04
Speaker 1: that night during that time frame. That's a bad look
9:08
Speaker 1: all day for him. Yeah, I've been thinking about a
9:11
Speaker 1: lot of other defendants that turned their phone on airplane
9:14
Speaker 1: mode just coincidantly at the time of the murderer, and
9:17
Speaker 1: we're seeing that more and more and more. Now, is
9:20
Speaker 1: that Chris McDonough or is that our friend Josh Fiology
9:24
Speaker 1: jumping in? Yeah, it was Chris Dancy. Go ahead, Chris.
9:27
Speaker 1: And to think is it possible that his intent was
9:30
Speaker 1: to methodically monitor these poor victims. I wouldn't be surprised
9:36
Speaker 1: if he took notes. Yeah, I would not be surprised
9:41
Speaker 1: if Brian Coburger took notes, sat up there in his
9:45
Speaker 1: car or on foot and took notes about this one
9:48
Speaker 1: goes to sleep at this time and this one turns
9:50
Speaker 1: off the light at this time. He probably watched them
9:52
Speaker 1: changing clothes, making out with their boyfriends, cooking dinner. I mean,
9:56
Speaker 1: I just wish you guys could be here and see
9:58
Speaker 1: what I was seeing right behind. I look straight in
10:01
Speaker 1: their windows. It's very voyeuristic, but it's a crime scene.
10:06
Speaker 1: I feel very odd about looking in their windows, even
10:09
Speaker 1: at a distance. A Fox Nation exclusive and international pop
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10:37
Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. It looks like across the street,
10:43
Speaker 1: I'm looking right at the Sigma Kai house. It's still
10:46
Speaker 1: loot up for Christmas and it looks like they're having
10:50
Speaker 1: a lawn party, which means they drag all the sofas
10:53
Speaker 1: out onto the front yard and drink and party. I
10:57
Speaker 1: just it's like, wellfe is just going on and this
11:03
Speaker 1: crime Saint is right in the middle of it all.
11:06
Speaker 1: Now joining me, guys is a new guest, our new friend,
11:09
Speaker 1: Josh Fiallo. He is a breaking news reporter at The
11:12
Speaker 1: Daily Beast and he has been investigating Coburger's background. What
11:18
Speaker 1: if anything, Josh have you learned. Yeah, We've learned a
11:21
Speaker 1: lot by talking to people who were close to Coburger,
11:23
Speaker 1: a different phases in his life, and what I can
11:25
Speaker 1: tell you it seems he really took on his current
11:27
Speaker 1: personality during his senior year of high school in Pennsylvania.
11:30
Speaker 1: Now two of his friends about Colms told us say
11:32
Speaker 1: he was overweight and really down to earth in his
11:35
Speaker 1: first few year of high school, but then once senior
11:37
Speaker 1: year came around, he really thinned out, and then his
11:40
Speaker 1: personality being but over the summer, Josh, yes, I guess,
11:43
Speaker 1: so I guess he was. You know, he was overweighted
11:45
Speaker 1: and kind of this weird kid the first three years,
11:48
Speaker 1: and then senior year came, Hey, Josh, you know what
11:50
Speaker 1: else I read? I read that because he was overweight,
11:55
Speaker 1: that people would bully him. And don't get tuned up,
11:58
Speaker 1: doctor Angela Arnold, somehow that excuses crimes in the future
12:03
Speaker 1: because he were bullied as attaining high school. Don't even
12:07
Speaker 1: because I know where you're going to come from. So
12:09
Speaker 1: I heard that, Josh, that he would be bullied about
12:12
Speaker 1: his weight, and then over the summer leading into his
12:15
Speaker 1: senior year, he got Dan as a rail r Ai
12:19
Speaker 1: l was the quote I read, Yes, Mammy, he did.
12:22
Speaker 1: He was thin as a rail when he came back,
12:24
Speaker 1: and wasn't only his weight that was different, was his
12:26
Speaker 1: higher personality. His friends told us that he now you know,
12:31
Speaker 1: started taking boxing classes and now he was kind of
12:34
Speaker 1: the bully, not just with strangers, but even within his
12:37
Speaker 1: own friend group, and he would talk down to people,
12:40
Speaker 1: including his friends and saying they weren't intelligent enough to
12:43
Speaker 1: be his friend. And he would basically pushed his friends
12:47
Speaker 1: to shun him from the friend group because he had
12:49
Speaker 1: just became a completely different person from his senior year. Josh, guys,
12:54
Speaker 1: Josh Fiello's joining us from the daily based you know,
12:59
Speaker 1: doctor Angie, what do you think of that the bullied
13:05
Speaker 1: turns into the bully? Nancy? Wasn't there also a history
13:09
Speaker 1: of some heroine of us in him? Yeah, I've read that.
13:12
Speaker 1: I don't know how much stock to put in it,
13:14
Speaker 1: but I haven't read that he got on heroin high
13:16
Speaker 1: school and then he got off of heroin and a
13:19
Speaker 1: quick turnaround. And I find that hard to believe that
13:23
Speaker 1: you can just stop cold turkey. But really, yeah, because Nancy,
13:29
Speaker 1: people will turn People that have mental some mental illness
13:34
Speaker 1: will turn to drugs. Heroine specifically will help you depreciate anxiety. Okay,
13:40
Speaker 1: you know, I know I'm out here freezing at my
13:43
Speaker 1: rear end off and Moscow in front of this house,
13:46
Speaker 1: but I can cut your mic even from here, so
13:48
Speaker 1: don't start up about mental illness. The man is getting
13:51
Speaker 1: a PhD in criminal studies. They asked him point blank
13:56
Speaker 1: in court, do you understand what's going on? Do you
13:58
Speaker 1: have any mental past? He's like, I'm fine, I understand.
14:03
Speaker 1: So you said mental illness. You said mental illness being
14:09
Speaker 1: a bully. It's not, oh, dear lord, and having guys.
14:11
Speaker 1: Can you look over there? Look, I guess he's right
14:14
Speaker 1: in that guy's I could see what he's cooking for dinner.
14:18
Speaker 1: That's how close all of this is. I mean, I'm
14:22
Speaker 1: just thinking of him, doctor Angela, looking right into these
14:26
Speaker 1: girls kitchen and seeing everything they were doing, keeping notes
14:31
Speaker 1: about what time they would come home, and this will
14:34
Speaker 1: be in bed by this time. Although I'm starting to
14:37
Speaker 1: wonder ahead, you know, worse than that too, Nancy. I mean,
14:42
Speaker 1: he wasn't just taking notes. He may have every time
14:46
Speaker 1: he did that, he was getting off on that somehow,
14:51
Speaker 1: just the voyeurism was was bringing him some sort of pleasure. Okay,
14:56
Speaker 1: it was it was stimulating him. Okay, I believe he
15:01
Speaker 1: wants Okay, that's a far cry from what you said
15:04
Speaker 1: mental illness. But I want to get back to what
15:07
Speaker 1: we are seeing here and what is happening right now.
15:11
Speaker 1: There are guards outside the house, and we just saw
15:14
Speaker 1: them change shifts. The house is still being protected. Going
15:19
Speaker 1: back to what Josh Fiolo was saying from the Daily
15:23
Speaker 1: beast about his personality Jackie. We learned a little bit
15:27
Speaker 1: more about his past, specifically from a woman that claims
15:31
Speaker 1: she met him on a dating app. Let's start with, um,
15:37
Speaker 1: see see is in cat Jackie? Um? We matched on
15:41
Speaker 1: tender UM. We talked for a couple hours and then
15:44
Speaker 1: he was like, hey, you want to go to the movies.
15:47
Speaker 1: I was like sure, so, um we want the movies. UM. Honestly,
15:53
Speaker 1: I don't even remember what movie we saw. UM. We
15:57
Speaker 1: ended up going back to my dorm um and he
16:02
Speaker 1: kind of invited himself inside. I thought he was just
16:04
Speaker 1: going to drop me off, but that was not the case.
16:06
Speaker 1: He kind of invited himself inside, and I was just
16:09
Speaker 1: like okay, I went along with it. So he wanted
16:13
Speaker 1: to watch another movie on Netflix, and I said, sure,
16:17
Speaker 1: you can't trying to touch me, not like inappropriately, just
16:22
Speaker 1: like trying to tickle me and like rub my shoulders
16:26
Speaker 1: and stuff. And I was like, why are you touching
16:29
Speaker 1: me or what are you doing? And he would just
16:31
Speaker 1: like get super serious and he's like I'm not and
16:36
Speaker 1: I'm like you are though, and he's like I'm not
16:38
Speaker 1: touching you kind of like trying to gaslight me into
16:43
Speaker 1: thinking that he didn't touch me, which is weird. But
16:46
Speaker 1: then I was like, I'm just gonna run to the
16:48
Speaker 1: bathroom quick, and he was like okay, and then he
16:53
Speaker 1: followed me to the bathroom, which I thought was kind
16:56
Speaker 1: of weird, and I believe Jackie. He mentioned something about
16:58
Speaker 1: she had breath year his hips. Could you play that part?
17:03
Speaker 1: Like in the door and there was like a shared bathroom. Um.
17:07
Speaker 1: He didn't go in with me, but like he stood
17:10
Speaker 1: outside the door and like, I don't know. I just
17:14
Speaker 1: thought that was weird. UM. And I was like, I
17:17
Speaker 1: need to get this stude to leave, um, like just
17:22
Speaker 1: not into it. UM. So I proceeded to pretend to
17:28
Speaker 1: throw up um to get him to leave. UM. It
17:32
Speaker 1: wasn't because I was scared of him or like thought
17:35
Speaker 1: he would hurt me if I asked him to leave.
17:36
Speaker 1: It was just mostly because I'm socially awkward. I didn't
17:40
Speaker 1: know how to ask him to leave. UM, so I
17:44
Speaker 1: thought I did UM. He ended up messaging me on
17:47
Speaker 1: Tinder that he was going to go, and I was like, awesome,
17:51
Speaker 1: my plant worked. And then about an hour later he
17:55
Speaker 1: texted me and said I had good birthing hips. So
17:57
Speaker 1: I never talked Okay, mccau director to the Cold Case
18:01
Speaker 1: Research Institute an starves zone at seven. That's pretty bad
18:06
Speaker 1: when the girl has to go in the bathroom and
18:08
Speaker 1: pretend to throw up to get the guy to leave.
18:12
Speaker 1: I mean, something was telling her to get away from
18:15
Speaker 1: this guy. Yeah, it's that gut feeling. It's that, you know,
18:19
Speaker 1: the hair on the back of your neck stands up
18:21
Speaker 1: kind of feeling. She can say she wasn't afraid, but
18:25
Speaker 1: she certainly wanted him out of there, to the point
18:28
Speaker 1: that she was going to pretend to be physically sick.
18:31
Speaker 1: So I mean, I'm glad she listened to her gut
18:33
Speaker 1: because again, this guy shows persistent. He's not going to
18:37
Speaker 1: give up. Even when you basically throw him out. He's
18:40
Speaker 1: gonna take you back and say something like you've got
18:43
Speaker 1: you know, good birth and hip. So again, you know,
18:46
Speaker 1: it kind of shows where he sees women and how
18:49
Speaker 1: he thinks of them, I guess. But you know, Nancy, again,
18:54
Speaker 1: I want to go back to where you are and
18:56
Speaker 1: how crucial it is that you were there, because people
18:59
Speaker 1: are saying he had no connection to these people, he
19:03
Speaker 1: never crossed paths with them, and I want to be
19:06
Speaker 1: very clear, there is no way the families or the
19:10
Speaker 1: family attorney can know that. Yet they could have crossed
19:14
Speaker 1: path not electronically. He could have found a way to
19:19
Speaker 1: go into the restaurant or to force them to meet
19:22
Speaker 1: and make it look like it was, you know, happenstance.
19:26
Speaker 1: But you know from being there there's one way in
19:29
Speaker 1: and one way out. You don't just happen upon the
19:32
Speaker 1: eleven twenty two King Roads. Now, once you're in these
19:37
Speaker 1: tight little streets, and once you go up that hill,
19:40
Speaker 1: you should have seen arthrod Dus. You're trying to back
19:43
Speaker 1: out of that a few moments ago on the ice.
19:46
Speaker 1: You know, when I was sitting in the Mad Greek today,
19:50
Speaker 1: I was actually looking at the menu and they had
19:54
Speaker 1: something called Sydney. Wasn't it Kiera's Amazing Vegan Pizza? Something
20:01
Speaker 1: like that. I would bet you anything, because you know,
20:05
Speaker 1: he was a very staunch vegan. He was, you know,
20:09
Speaker 1: crazy about it. I could just see him sitting there.
20:12
Speaker 1: It was a very chill, laid back place. It was
20:15
Speaker 1: not what I thought it was going to be, like
20:17
Speaker 1: a loud and boisterous pizza parlor. It wasn't like that
20:21
Speaker 1: at all. It was actually almost serene in there. They
20:28
Speaker 1: had music playing gently. Everybody was very low key. I
20:32
Speaker 1: could just see him in one of those booths, having
20:35
Speaker 1: his vegan pizza and checking out the two victims that
20:39
Speaker 1: worked there, maybe even following them home. It's not that
20:43
Speaker 1: far at all from the scene. Back to Josh Fiollo,
20:48
Speaker 1: Josh again, thanks for being with us. What more did
20:51
Speaker 1: you learn about his background? Yeah, so kind of going
20:54
Speaker 1: back to that TikTok's video, So that would have been
20:56
Speaker 1: shortly after he graduated high school, right, that's whenever he
20:59
Speaker 1: was in commun eighty college studying. I believe it was psychology.
21:03
Speaker 1: So you know, we didn't learn a lot about that
21:05
Speaker 1: from that period and our own reporting. So it's interesting
21:08
Speaker 1: that that TikTok video kind of shine some light on
21:10
Speaker 1: who he was at that point in his life. Probably,
21:12
Speaker 1: and I mean think about it, Josh. The woman had
21:14
Speaker 1: to go to the bathroom and pretend to puke to
21:17
Speaker 1: get him to leave, and then she stayed in there
21:20
Speaker 1: until he finally just left on his own, and he
21:23
Speaker 1: checked her. I think that he was leaving. That's good much.
21:27
Speaker 1: Can we talk about that, Nancy for a second. Yeah,
21:30
Speaker 1: go ahead, Christie, you know, to your point a minute
21:33
Speaker 1: ago into Cheryl's just to dovetail him too. That think
21:37
Speaker 1: about him as you know, ego driven, because everything is
21:42
Speaker 1: done in the dark with this guy. Hey, and he
21:45
Speaker 1: this guy. Thank goodness, that young woman followed her gut
21:51
Speaker 1: to Cheryl's point, and that should be a lesson to
21:54
Speaker 1: all young women today that you're not wrong. You're never wrong,
22:00
Speaker 1: all that gut because this guy sits back and he
22:06
Speaker 1: was enjoying striking the fear in that young lady that
22:12
Speaker 1: goes towards his personality that I'm sure the doctor could
22:17
Speaker 1: get into and break down. But I didn't mean to
22:19
Speaker 1: interrupt Josh. I apologize, but that was my point on that. Josh,
22:25
Speaker 1: feel a free to interrupt him whenever you feel like it. So,
22:28
Speaker 1: Josh Fiallie, what else did you learn real quick on
22:31
Speaker 1: that point? How you know she's saw right away after
22:35
Speaker 1: just one date, Like how she saw the red flags
22:39
Speaker 1: right she knew she needed to get out of there
22:40
Speaker 1: in the middle of the first date. And I found
22:43
Speaker 1: it telling that, you know, all these years later, she
22:45
Speaker 1: said today, the moment she saw his mug shot, she
22:48
Speaker 1: recognized him right away. I mean, how many people do
22:51
Speaker 1: you you know, recognize immediately who you saw one time
22:55
Speaker 1: years ago? He obviously left an impression on her, which
22:59
Speaker 1: is kind of scary thought that kind of goes back
23:01
Speaker 1: to we see that stare in his eyes even in
23:05
Speaker 1: the clips that we've seen since his arrest, and you know,
23:11
Speaker 1: people in his paths have commented on that, Hey, Hey, Josh,
23:14
Speaker 1: I want to I want to talk to you about
23:15
Speaker 1: what you just said. You said, we the same pictures
23:18
Speaker 1: and clips at him when you look into his eyes.
23:21
Speaker 1: I've got to tell you, just before we went to air,
23:23
Speaker 1: I pulled up a picture of him and he was
23:25
Speaker 1: looking at the camera and I went look at his
23:29
Speaker 1: eyes that look, there's just something. You're not the only
23:34
Speaker 1: one that noticed that, Josh, Go ahead, Yeah, And it's
23:37
Speaker 1: not just you and I, It's it's been other people
23:39
Speaker 1: we've talked to from throughout his life. You know, whenever
23:42
Speaker 1: he was in grad school in Pennsylvania, people commented, you know,
23:46
Speaker 1: and interviews to us that he always had this stare,
23:49
Speaker 1: you know, and we see it even to this day.
23:52
Speaker 1: And you know, just going back to a little bit
23:55
Speaker 1: that we've learned about him, is he obviously thought that
23:57
Speaker 1: he was the master criminal, who could know if he
24:00
Speaker 1: was the one who did this crime. As cops believe,
24:03
Speaker 1: and seems more and more apparent each day that he
24:06
Speaker 1: thought he could do this perfect crime and get away
24:08
Speaker 1: with it. And he studied criminology, you know, he was
24:10
Speaker 1: studying under professors who written books about the psychology of
24:14
Speaker 1: a killer. He thought he could get away with this,
24:17
Speaker 1: and you know he was. We learned from his classmates
24:21
Speaker 1: at Washington State where he was in the PhD program,
24:23
Speaker 1: that he was always talkative in class and he's just
24:26
Speaker 1: like everybody has said, he was a really smart guy.
24:28
Speaker 1: But when it came time to talk about the Idaho murders,
24:31
Speaker 1: you know, the murders in Moscow, Idaho, right down the road,
24:35
Speaker 1: this suddenly talkative, really bright guy in class, you know,
24:38
Speaker 1: started to become quiet and he didn't want to talk
24:40
Speaker 1: about that in person. And I found that really interesting
24:43
Speaker 1: and telling you know another thing. I want to go
24:46
Speaker 1: back to the she print, and that's where you're going
24:48
Speaker 1: to come again and again, Cheryl. But to doctor Angie
24:53
Speaker 1: joining us, I read a lot about people that knew him,
24:58
Speaker 1: what they had to say. I was reading the comments
25:02
Speaker 1: of his downstairs neighbor, one of them, and the neighbor
25:08
Speaker 1: said that he would often come up and trying to
25:11
Speaker 1: create conversations, and he would become very low guacious, very gregarious,
25:17
Speaker 1: to the point the friend, I guess you could call
25:21
Speaker 1: him the neighbor, would think it was going to be
25:23
Speaker 1: late to where he was going. So he started avoiding coburger,
25:27
Speaker 1: and they kept trying to get together, and I'm hearing
25:31
Speaker 1: more and more that people just innately just avoided him.
25:37
Speaker 1: You know, Nancy, psychopaths are very empty inside, okay, and
25:44
Speaker 1: they're so that means that they are they're trying. They're
25:48
Speaker 1: always trying to excite themselves or stimulate themselves, and they
25:54
Speaker 1: can be they can be okay socially. But this guy
25:57
Speaker 1: was going out of his way to make conversation with
26:00
Speaker 1: people because he doesn't He lacks good boundaries. That's the
26:05
Speaker 1: same reason he was trying to touch this girl that
26:07
Speaker 1: he went on this tender date with. He lacks all
26:10
Speaker 1: kinds of boundaries. He's trying to sit in in society,
26:15
Speaker 1: but he knows deep down inside of himself that he
26:19
Speaker 1: does not fit in. And so that's why the low
26:22
Speaker 1: quacious talking to other people and trying to engage them
26:26
Speaker 1: and asking them to go have coffee with him and whatnot.
26:30
Speaker 1: He's trying very hard to be like other people, but
26:33
Speaker 1: people find his actions weird because he is weird. He
26:37
Speaker 1: really doesn't know. He doesn't have that sense that normal
26:41
Speaker 1: people do of how to interact on a normal basis. Jackie,
26:45
Speaker 1: could you get our cut two fifty six or ready?
26:48
Speaker 1: It's Brian Flores from Fox thirteen. But I want to
26:51
Speaker 1: lead up to Cheryl McCollum, Cheryl joining me from the
26:54
Speaker 1: Cold Case Research Institute. Cheryl the sheeprint. I've been studying
27:00
Speaker 1: the sheeprint a lot, and of course we need to
27:03
Speaker 1: know more about it before I can be sure, but
27:07
Speaker 1: it seems to me that the shoeprint corroborates or confirms
27:13
Speaker 1: what DM the one of the two roommates that lived stated,
27:20
Speaker 1: we believe it is a Van sneaker sheeprint because of
27:24
Speaker 1: the diamond print on the bottom of it. Now, Coburger
27:30
Speaker 1: was seen entering and leaving court one day and a
27:33
Speaker 1: pair of Vans. I don't see how those could be
27:37
Speaker 1: the same ones. But don't you know they tore his
27:41
Speaker 1: apartment up looking for those sneakers because you know they'd
27:46
Speaker 1: be blood on them if he kept them. But I'm
27:49
Speaker 1: just thinking about what we can learn. We don't know
27:53
Speaker 1: if the shoeprint was bloody in fact, but I don't
27:56
Speaker 1: really see how it could be anything else but blood
27:59
Speaker 1: for them to have noticed it. Well, there's a couple
28:03
Speaker 1: of things. The footprint is near the home. The critical
28:08
Speaker 1: thing is it's in the home, and it's in the home.
28:12
Speaker 1: But the direction that it's heading, and that's what verifies
28:15
Speaker 1: what she said, the direction he was going the same thing.
28:19
Speaker 1: So now you have a shoe that he obviously liked.
28:22
Speaker 1: That type of shoe. It wasn't an air Jordan, wasn't
28:24
Speaker 1: a work boot, it wasn't a flip flop. So if
28:27
Speaker 1: he's got more than one pair of those type of shoes.
28:31
Speaker 1: But if I'm the primis there investigator and I cannot
28:33
Speaker 1: find a bloody pair of Vans, I'm gonna take everyone
28:37
Speaker 1: to show again this pattern. This is a shoe that
28:40
Speaker 1: he likes. I've also at that scene got the size,
28:44
Speaker 1: So now I've got, excuse me, the same size shoe
28:48
Speaker 1: you wear, the direction of the shoe heading out of
28:52
Speaker 1: the house, which is what DM says, And I've got
28:55
Speaker 1: a pair that should be bloody. You're giving me a
28:58
Speaker 1: horrible flashback of the j Simpson trial and the Bruno
29:01
Speaker 1: Molly's I just want to get that out of my head,
29:04
Speaker 1: where he swore he would never wear those ugly ass shoes,
29:09
Speaker 1: And then there were pictures from the inquirers showing him
29:11
Speaker 1: on the side of a football field that he was
29:13
Speaker 1: covering the game wearing Bruno Molly's so bad flashback. Thanks
29:18
Speaker 1: for bringing conjuring up that, Emma, Cheryl McCollum. Go ahead,
29:21
Speaker 1: but the soul of that shoe is going to tell
29:23
Speaker 1: you which van it is. So for example, if I've
29:27
Speaker 1: got you know, the diamonds go in one direction or
29:30
Speaker 1: they're in a different pattern than other shoes, I can
29:32
Speaker 1: tell you exactly what van that is because the FBI's
29:35
Speaker 1: got the whole database where I can go in there
29:37
Speaker 1: and tell you precisely what shoe it is. So now
29:40
Speaker 1: if I can go back through his debit cards and
29:43
Speaker 1: credit cards and he has purchased that and get the
29:46
Speaker 1: receipt to find out if he bought that van, and
29:50
Speaker 1: I do wonder, are these vans he was wearing his
29:53
Speaker 1: own shoes? I mean, they very well could be. It's
29:56
Speaker 1: the same style, it's the same size. We think obviously
30:01
Speaker 1: they were his shoes, so they very well could be.
30:04
Speaker 1: I would get those shoes off his feet in a
30:07
Speaker 1: minute and get them tested. Take a listen to Brian
30:11
Speaker 1: Floras and our cut two five six. Now, in terms
30:14
Speaker 1: of timeline, we are learning a lot more about that
30:16
Speaker 1: as well. We understand two of the victims, Kaylee Ganalvez
30:19
Speaker 1: and mass and Mogen, they went to get food at
30:21
Speaker 1: a place called the Grub Truck in the early morning
30:23
Speaker 1: hours of November thirteenth, roughly around one o'clock in the morning.
30:27
Speaker 1: They came back to the home and around four in
30:30
Speaker 1: the morning, Gonalves apparently was heard saying the phrase there's
30:34
Speaker 1: someone here. It goes on to describe a person in there,
30:37
Speaker 1: described as a skinny build, a man who was masked
30:39
Speaker 1: in there. As well. Investigators also discovered a latent shoeprint
30:43
Speaker 1: eventually that had a diamond shape similar to a van
30:47
Speaker 1: shoes if you ever seen shoes like that. Another issue
30:50
Speaker 1: beside the van shoes, two things sprang to mind. In
30:55
Speaker 1: addition to the cell phone data of that police obviously
31:00
Speaker 1: have put together haven retrieved also emerging now as video
31:07
Speaker 1: from various homes. I guess it's their surveillance video. And oh,
31:11
Speaker 1: speaking surveillance video, I'll circle back to that but Chris mcdonnah,
31:16
Speaker 1: you told me about a home that was fifty feet
31:21
Speaker 1: away from the house, the murder house, and I believe
31:25
Speaker 1: it was that home that may have picked up sounds
31:28
Speaker 1: coming from the house. You're right, it may not even
31:31
Speaker 1: be fifty feet, Chris mcdonna. And when we talked about that,
31:35
Speaker 1: Nancy wasn't interesting that immediately that's video camera was taken
31:42
Speaker 1: down and collected right away by the police. And I
31:46
Speaker 1: agree with you one hundred percent. I think that's going
31:48
Speaker 1: to be the piece of evidence that puts the vehicle
31:53
Speaker 1: coming in making that three point turn. And now that
31:56
Speaker 1: you're you're there and you feel it, yeah, see it.
31:59
Speaker 1: It's I've got to tell you, it's a feeling now
32:02
Speaker 1: that i'm here, of immense heartbreak. There's just when I
32:07
Speaker 1: was sitting in the mad Greek thinking about two of
32:12
Speaker 1: the girls working there, it just it's heartbreaking. And when
32:18
Speaker 1: you see the campus, I just think of all the
32:22
Speaker 1: things they had to live for, Chris. You know, there's
32:25
Speaker 1: their studies and the dances and the parties and the
32:29
Speaker 1: whole future before them. And I look back at this
32:32
Speaker 1: house is just like a blood bath. It's just such
32:37
Speaker 1: a stark dichotomy. Chris. You know, and I'll go back
32:41
Speaker 1: to your comment about the hunter. You know this individual
32:49
Speaker 1: if he is the individual, and allegedly at this point,
32:51
Speaker 1: you know he's innocent toil proven guilty, but he is
32:56
Speaker 1: so again I keep saying this, He's so methodical. It's
33:00
Speaker 1: almost as if this was a mission for him, like
33:03
Speaker 1: a daily event in our lives. Let me throw a
33:07
Speaker 1: question to everybody on the panel, Chris, something you just said,
33:10
Speaker 1: I want to jump off of that. You know, he
33:13
Speaker 1: would send out these questionnaires to felons, rapists, murderers and
33:18
Speaker 1: say what were you feeling at the time of your crime?
33:22
Speaker 1: How did you pick your victim? Then we find out
33:25
Speaker 1: that he had tried to get on with the local
33:28
Speaker 1: police department, and you know that would have made him
33:31
Speaker 1: privy to crime scenes and violent crimes. I'm just wondering
33:36
Speaker 1: if all of his interviews and his experiments and his
33:41
Speaker 1: attempt to get onto crime scenes just wasn't fulfilling him,
33:46
Speaker 1: and so he set out to do the murder himself.
33:51
Speaker 1: Because there's no rape that we've heard, nothing was stolen,
33:55
Speaker 1: So what more motive could there be other and the
34:00
Speaker 1: desire to hunt and murder to see what it really
34:06
Speaker 1: feels like. There's basically four reasons people are killed. Money, sex, revenge,
34:13
Speaker 1: and crazy. Now you're about trial killing, well, that falls
34:19
Speaker 1: into sometimes or it could fall into sexual. It depends
34:25
Speaker 1: on what you see at the seeing. But again, just
34:27
Speaker 1: because there's no sexual assault doesn't mean he wasn't self gratifying.
34:31
Speaker 1: And I'll tell you something else. You look at Ted
34:34
Speaker 1: Bundy works at the rape Crisis Center. This is a
34:38
Speaker 1: need that he was feeling for himself. There was nowhere
34:42
Speaker 1: online where he could get what he wanted, and that's
34:45
Speaker 1: to hear from the people that actually did it. This
34:48
Speaker 1: guy didn't want to hear from the victims. This guy
34:51
Speaker 1: wanted to hear from the killers. And that is critical
34:54
Speaker 1: for us to understand. He wanted to know how did
34:57
Speaker 1: you feel before? During and asked, and at some point
35:02
Speaker 1: he wants to experience them, you know himself. This is
35:06
Speaker 1: not new to us. We see people all the time.
35:08
Speaker 1: They can't, you know, fulfill their own fantasy in their minds,
35:11
Speaker 1: so they turn to porn. Porn's not enough, They go
35:14
Speaker 1: to a prostitute. The prostitute's not enough. They go to
35:18
Speaker 1: you know, another victim that is completely unsuspected. It has
35:21
Speaker 1: no idea this guy's around. This is what I see
35:24
Speaker 1: in this guy. Okay, Doctor Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrists. We're
35:28
Speaker 1: trying to explain it in layman's terms, but the questionnaires
35:32
Speaker 1: and the desire to go to crime scenes, it just
35:36
Speaker 1: wasn't cutting it anymore if in fact, this is the killer.
35:41
Speaker 1: So he set out to find out what it really
35:44
Speaker 1: did feel like to commit a martyr. Well, sure, Nancy,
35:48
Speaker 1: because again he is empty inside. Okay, he's completely empty. So,
35:54
Speaker 1: as Cheryl just said, none of these things will fulfilling
35:58
Speaker 1: him enough. It's also very interesting to me, Nancy, and
36:02
Speaker 1: I think we should point this out on the show
36:03
Speaker 1: that you know, he chose to study with a woman
36:07
Speaker 1: named he picked out who he studied with. He studied
36:12
Speaker 1: with doctor Catherine Ramsland, and she's written like sixty books
36:17
Speaker 1: on different killers and stuff. He wanted to get in
36:20
Speaker 1: there and study with this particular person about the and
36:25
Speaker 1: be very close to the murders. I happen to think
36:28
Speaker 1: that he wants some sort of notoriety from this. I
36:32
Speaker 1: think he wanted to connect with some of these different
36:35
Speaker 1: killers that have been written about, and he wants some
36:38
Speaker 1: notoriety out of this. To Josh Fela joining us in
36:41
Speaker 1: the Daily Beast, how does what we're spending out right
36:44
Speaker 1: now this theory fit with what you've learned? You know,
36:47
Speaker 1: everybody's kind of comment said that he was a real
36:50
Speaker 1: smart guy, but he was also there was always something
36:52
Speaker 1: about him that that was different, and like I said, prior,
36:56
Speaker 1: you could see it in his eyes. So for me,
37:00
Speaker 1: I can sell from what we've learned about how he
37:02
Speaker 1: repeatedly went to the crime scene with his phone thinking
37:06
Speaker 1: that you know, cops would never even think it's him,
37:08
Speaker 1: to that one night where he thought to turn off
37:10
Speaker 1: his zone he went to the crime scene, you know,
37:12
Speaker 1: or left it at home or put it on airplane mode.
37:15
Speaker 1: He thought that he was, you know, the killer expert
37:19
Speaker 1: who was going to go when cops are going to
37:21
Speaker 1: check you know, the phone data and we're not going
37:24
Speaker 1: to see his phone anywhere in sight, And he thought
37:26
Speaker 1: he took all the other precautions, He did everything he
37:28
Speaker 1: needed to do in order to make sure it never
37:30
Speaker 1: got back to him. So, you know, for me, I
37:34
Speaker 1: think that all these years of studying criminology and studying
37:38
Speaker 1: under professors who wrote, you know, tons of books about
37:41
Speaker 1: you know, the art of killing, or what goes on
37:44
Speaker 1: in the mind of a killer. I think this all
37:46
Speaker 1: kind of turned into him, you know, killing in November,
37:50
Speaker 1: and quite frankly, I'm not sure that had he not
37:53
Speaker 1: been caught, this would have been his only instance. As
37:55
Speaker 1: from what we've learned since his arrest. You know, your
37:57
Speaker 1: words are very chilling to me, Josh, but I can't
38:01
Speaker 1: say that I don't agree with you crime stories with
38:16
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. We also learned that his extradition hearing, defendant
38:26
Speaker 1: Brian Coburger did something very extraordinary. He actually spoke to
38:31
Speaker 1: some of the law enforcement at the extradition hearing and
38:35
Speaker 1: one thing he said, and I quote, it's really sad
38:39
Speaker 1: what happened to them. I mean, just let that sink
38:43
Speaker 1: in for a moment. This guy, who we believe compstibli
38:47
Speaker 1: murdered four people, said, that's so sad what happened to them.
38:53
Speaker 1: Back to doctor Angela Arnold's story that he's just imitating
38:58
Speaker 1: life because there's nothing inside. He's saying or doing anything
39:02
Speaker 1: he thinks a normal person would do. So, Chris McDonald,
39:05
Speaker 1: what I was trying to get back to with you,
39:06
Speaker 1: as in addition to the cell phone data placing him
39:10
Speaker 1: in various locations at the time of the killings and
39:13
Speaker 1: that morning later on video surveillance has emerged of a
39:18
Speaker 1: white melanchra speeding by. You can see it through bushes
39:22
Speaker 1: and trees, and I believe that's why cops are still
39:25
Speaker 1: begging for information as they should be to help shore
39:28
Speaker 1: up their case. Yes, and it's going to be really
39:33
Speaker 1: interesting to find out what else they have in relationship
39:37
Speaker 1: to that behavior. You remember, every behavior has a purpose,
39:44
Speaker 1: and for him to be methodical through this, I really
39:49
Speaker 1: feel that he's forgotten the idea of that the crime
39:55
Speaker 1: sheen is going to show just how disorganized though he
39:58
Speaker 1: really was, and that all of this rejection that he feels,
40:03
Speaker 1: you know, potentially from society, women, the grudge, the resentment,
40:08
Speaker 1: all of that I think has built up to this
40:11
Speaker 1: quality where he felt that he was going to be
40:15
Speaker 1: the deliverer of justice, as we've talked about in the past, Nancy.
40:20
Speaker 1: And that's going to be as undoing here because those
40:24
Speaker 1: pieces of evidence like the car, like hid Mary turning,
40:28
Speaker 1: are going to start surfacing. I don't know if you
40:30
Speaker 1: guys could hear it, but just in the background, right
40:34
Speaker 1: across the way, there is a steeple of some sort
40:38
Speaker 1: on campus, just right across the street from campus, and
40:44
Speaker 1: it was chiming the time, and I was just thinking
40:49
Speaker 1: about is that night went on and those chimes were
40:53
Speaker 1: going every hour after the girls were murtyred and he
40:59
Speaker 1: had gotten away seemingly scott free. I wish you could
41:07
Speaker 1: feel the feeling here. How would you describe it? Guys?
41:11
Speaker 1: It's kind of erie, erie and very very quiet. It's
41:18
Speaker 1: almost like when you walk through a graveyard or you
41:20
Speaker 1: go into an empty church like it. Yeah, like it
41:24
Speaker 1: is frozen in time. Everything is still out, people still
41:29
Speaker 1: have at Christmas decorations. It's like everybody just left the
41:33
Speaker 1: moment these murders happened. I want to go back to you, Cheryl.
41:39
Speaker 1: I really believe police have to shore up their case.
41:43
Speaker 1: They've got a short up. You know, you think you've
41:45
Speaker 1: got DNA. They could easily the defense could easily argue, Hey,
41:50
Speaker 1: I went to a gun and knife convention and I
41:53
Speaker 1: looked at a lot of knives and a lot of guns.
41:56
Speaker 1: That was obviously one of them. That's not mine. I mean,
42:00
Speaker 1: we've got to find the murder weapon. We've got to
42:03
Speaker 1: find more DA right behind me in this home or
42:06
Speaker 1: in his Elantra. What do they need to shore up
42:10
Speaker 1: the case, Cheryl, Well, let's talk about some really good
42:13
Speaker 1: police work we've already seen. They had his attract number
42:18
Speaker 1: by November twenty fifth. Then the campus police officers spotted
42:22
Speaker 1: it said yep, it's here. They had his name before Thanksgiving,
42:28
Speaker 1: so they were already in full swing, even though they
42:32
Speaker 1: were telling the general public, Hey, we need your help.
42:34
Speaker 1: They need your help. Once they went into his apartment,
42:38
Speaker 1: I guarantee you there was a plethora of evidence. I
42:42
Speaker 1: bet he had maps, I bet he had writings. I
42:45
Speaker 1: bet he had journals. I bet on his computer he
42:47
Speaker 1: had done all kinds of searches. He was not going
42:51
Speaker 1: to be able to hide this, Nancy. Just like his
42:54
Speaker 1: old line questionnaire, can you imagine his topics from when
42:59
Speaker 1: he got his bachelor's and masters to his PhD. Roger,
43:03
Speaker 1: He's done nothing but right about this. And one thing
43:07
Speaker 1: that I bet they're doing is they're collecting all those
43:10
Speaker 1: papers from all those teachers and they're talking to all
43:14
Speaker 1: of them. And the topics that he chose are going
43:18
Speaker 1: to be powerful. But one thing I'm going to be
43:21
Speaker 1: real interested in are the topics that were rejected. You know,
43:26
Speaker 1: another thing about his meticulous nature. I wonder if he
43:32
Speaker 1: would get rid of all all the notes, all the writings,
43:36
Speaker 1: all the computer searches. Of course, anything on computer is
43:40
Speaker 1: going to be in the cloud forever. You can't get
43:42
Speaker 1: rid of that. But I'm just wondering how much they'll
43:46
Speaker 1: actually be able to retrieve what they found in his apartment.
43:51
Speaker 1: You know he was also a TA teaching assistant. Did
43:54
Speaker 1: he have an office at work? I would come through
43:57
Speaker 1: that when the fine tooth comes. And do you believe,
44:02
Speaker 1: Chris McDonough, that he could actually get rid of all
44:06
Speaker 1: traces of blood? Now you heard DM say he was
44:11
Speaker 1: dressed all in dark clothing with a mask over his
44:14
Speaker 1: nose and mouth. Do you think he got rid of
44:18
Speaker 1: that clothing? Do you think he got rid of those
44:21
Speaker 1: van sneakers? Even the socks? Remember the blood that was
44:25
Speaker 1: on O. J. Simpson's socks. Could he would he think
44:29
Speaker 1: to get rid of every sintilla of evidence? Chris? You
44:34
Speaker 1: know he certainly would think about it. The probability of
44:38
Speaker 1: some type of transfer of some type of blood or
44:43
Speaker 1: any type of trace evidence that you cannot you get
44:50
Speaker 1: away with him. You've seen thousands of cases like that
44:53
Speaker 1: in your court time. Yeah, I just don't see how
44:56
Speaker 1: he could get rid of all of it, because if
44:58
Speaker 1: he wore those clothes into the car, I don't care
45:01
Speaker 1: if you got rid of the clothes, how could he
45:03
Speaker 1: get rid of everything in the car? And isn't it correct?
45:07
Speaker 1: Joining me, guys, is our friend from the Daily Beast,
45:12
Speaker 1: Josh Fiollo. Josh, it's my understanding that surveillance on the
45:17
Speaker 1: family home in the Poconos, the Coburger family home, they
45:21
Speaker 1: were out there twenty four seven. They had to be
45:25
Speaker 1: because they spot him at four am dumping the family trash,
45:28
Speaker 1: his trash into the neighbor's receptacle. I think it was
45:33
Speaker 1: there that they observed him meticulously cleaning his Elantra over
45:40
Speaker 1: and over, inside and out. Yeah, that's absolutely correct. And
45:44
Speaker 1: you know what, I think this is one of the
45:46
Speaker 1: reasons why it took so long to take him into custody.
45:48
Speaker 1: Who cleans their car outside in the Poconos when it's
45:52
Speaker 1: snowing and it's freezing kind of like it is right here.
45:56
Speaker 1: Who would do that? Somebody who has something to hide?
45:59
Speaker 1: And another their detail that was picked up while they
46:01
Speaker 1: were surveiling him, you know in Pennsylvania, was who takes
46:04
Speaker 1: their trash out in the middle of the night. First
46:07
Speaker 1: of all, who takes her trash out in the middle
46:09
Speaker 1: of the night. Second of all, who takes her trash
46:11
Speaker 1: out in the middle of the night and then takes
46:12
Speaker 1: it to their neighbor's yard and puts it in there. Ben,
46:16
Speaker 1: that's somebody that tells me you're trying to hide something.
46:18
Speaker 1: And I think that the reason they were surveiling him
46:21
Speaker 1: so much in Pennsylvania was maybe once they got into
46:23
Speaker 1: his apartment, or they weren't getting the DNA and the
46:27
Speaker 1: evidence they needed back in Pullman back in Moscow, and
46:31
Speaker 1: they were able to whenever back in Pennsylvania because he
46:34
Speaker 1: had no clue either on him. I'm just wondering how
46:36
Speaker 1: right in front of the murder house, and I'm just wondering, Cheryl, Chris,
46:42
Speaker 1: doctor Anji, Josh jump on, if you have any ideas
46:45
Speaker 1: where else could they retrieve DNA or hair one hair
46:52
Speaker 1: of his at the scene? Because Cheryl, you'd not been
46:56
Speaker 1: on a lot of homicide saints. Have you ever noticed it?
46:59
Speaker 1: There's always hair in the blood at a murder saint. Always, Nathew,
47:06
Speaker 1: there's gonna be evidence a whole lot of places that
47:10
Speaker 1: I'm sure we're not thinking about. They got evidence off
47:13
Speaker 1: the sheets, they got evidence off the floor, they got
47:17
Speaker 1: evidence off the victim's clothing. There's gonna be a transfer too,
47:21
Speaker 1: you know, the lockmark principle. He left his own hair,
47:24
Speaker 1: possibly at that scene when the victims were fighting. We
47:28
Speaker 1: know some had defensive wounds. They could have his skin
47:31
Speaker 1: under their nail. You know, you just never know. But
47:34
Speaker 1: I know this. The amount that has already been in
47:38
Speaker 1: the arrest Affidavid was just enough to get him arrest.
47:42
Speaker 1: They have so much more. Yep, you know, one more
47:45
Speaker 1: thing before we close out for tonight. I'm not so
47:50
Speaker 1: sure you got to think about in the probable cause
47:55
Speaker 1: affidavit and anything we have heard from police. I don't
48:01
Speaker 1: know how it ever got started that the victimus were
48:04
Speaker 1: actually asleep in their beds. Now we saw the bloody
48:08
Speaker 1: beds being carried out right behind me, so we do
48:11
Speaker 1: know that the murders took place on the bebbit. I
48:14
Speaker 1: just don't see how you can be looking at a
48:16
Speaker 1: TikTok at four o two I think it was four twelve,
48:22
Speaker 1: thank you, Kelly. And then he's leaving. Was he leaving
48:26
Speaker 1: at four twenty six? Four twenty five? I don't think
48:32
Speaker 1: that they were all asleep, Cheryl Well, the arrest have
48:36
Speaker 1: a David says that Zannah was on the floor, so
48:39
Speaker 1: we know that. But upstairs on the third floor, if
48:43
Speaker 1: they were in the bed asleep and under the covers,
48:46
Speaker 1: you remember the Jeffrey McDonald crime scene photographs, you could
48:49
Speaker 1: tell several of them were asleep. You can tell even
48:53
Speaker 1: if they're murdered, that they were asleep prior to that.
48:56
Speaker 1: But I do believe that Ethan and Zannah were awake.
48:58
Speaker 1: I do believe that. One thing that is really hard
49:01
Speaker 1: for me. I was just gonna go to you, Chris McDonagh's,
49:05
Speaker 1: when I see how close these apartments are to the
49:09
Speaker 1: murdered seemed right behind me, and one of them seemingly
49:14
Speaker 1: picked up whimpering. Just imagining those girls whimpering in that
49:21
Speaker 1: house behind me as they were stabbed dead. I'm telling you,
49:28
Speaker 1: if this is not a death penalty case, then we
49:30
Speaker 1: should just abolish the death penalty because we might as
49:32
Speaker 1: well not even have it. To think what these girls
49:35
Speaker 1: and Ethan went through. And don't you know they are
49:40
Speaker 1: trying to enhance that sound right now, so one day
49:44
Speaker 1: they're going to play it for a jury. We'll be
49:47
Speaker 1: back here again tomorrow. I hope you can join us
49:51
Speaker 1: here at Crime Stories. I wish you could be with
49:55
Speaker 1: us right now and see what we're seeing and hear
49:58
Speaker 1: what we're hearing. But I'll try my best, my very best,
50:02
Speaker 1: to relate it to you as best as I can. Goodbye, friend,