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Audit This · The Schmidt Show PDX

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, I'm Leif Olson, and I run theliferecording.com.
• 0:09
  I record audio-only life stories of parents and grandparents
• 0:14
  and set them to original music.
• 0:17
  It's a clean,
• 0:18
  unbroken hour to preserve your parents' voices before they're
• 0:22
  gone.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Let's record your mom's laugh.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: Visit theliferecording.com today.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to the Schmidt Show PDX.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Mike Schmidt,
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: former district attorney of Multnomah County,
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: part-time podcaster and soon to be beekeeper once again.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: But that's a longer story for another day.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: Today we are talking taxes.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: Tis the season, right?
• 1:05
  We are going to have a real conversation about what we're
• 1:07
  paying and what we're
• 1:08
  getting and whether anyone is being straight with us about the
• 1:11
  trade-offs.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's been offset that there isn't a tax hike Portland voters don't like.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: And for a while, that was kind of true.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: In 2020, we voted for a tax to fund homeless services.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: We voted for a tax to fund preschool for our kids.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: We voted for a tax to fund green energy.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: And we did it all in a single election cycle.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: But something has shifted.
• 1:30
  The economic headwinds that started after the pandemic haven't
• 1:33
  fully let up.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: Inflation has hit working families hard,
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: the jobs market is soft,
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: and the mood around here,
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: let's just call it a little bit spicy.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: Some candidates are running
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: against Portland's tax burden, and they're getting traction.
• 1:47
  Even the governor,
• 1:48
  the top Democrat in Oregon,
• 1:49
  Tina Kotek,
• 1:50
  has started taking shots.
• 1:51
  She sent a letter to the Multnomah County chair in June calling
• 1:54
  the Preschool for
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: All program,
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: the one voters passed with 64% of the vote just four years ago,
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: unsustainable.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: She's put together a panel of mostly corporate executives to make tax
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: recommendations for Portland,
• 2:05
  and legislators took a run at killing Preschool for All
• 2:08
  outright at the second in
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: the last legislative session.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: At the same time,
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: and this is the part that doesn't always make it into the conversation,
• 2:16
  the federal government has also signed what they call the Big
• 2:19
  Beautiful Bill that
• 2:20
  will strip Oregon of up to $15 billion in healthcare funding
• 2:24
  over the next decade.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: One in three Oregonians is on Medicaid,
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: where the state most likely to lose the highest percentage of enrollees.
• 2:32
  And the city and the county are both staring down structural
• 2:35
  budget deficits.
• 2:37
  So the questions that we want to talk about today is what's
• 2:39
  actually true?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: Because in a moment like this,
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: with real money on the table and real services at stake,
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: the difference between fact and political spin matters a lot.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: My guest today has done the research.
• 2:51
  Marina Kaminski is the research director at the North Star
• 2:54
  Civic Foundation,
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: which is the home of the Bull Run Center,
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: one of Portland's most interesting civic leadership spaces.
• 3:01
  North Star has spent years studying Oregon and Portland and
• 3:05
  what our local
• 3:05
  governments actually do and how public investment does or does
• 3:08
  not serve our
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: communities.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: Marina, welcome to the show.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: hey,
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: just to start off,
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: I said a little bit about North Star and Bull Run,
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: but why don't you tell us who you are,
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: a little bit about yourself,
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: and then maybe a little bit about those organizations.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, my name is Marina.
• 3:31
  I have a background in economics from Reed College,
• 3:34
  so I've been in the area for a while.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: I have a graduate degree in public administration from the University of
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: Washington,
• 3:40
  and I joined Northstar first as a special projects coordinator
• 3:46
  in 2017 and began
• 3:47
  working with the research on economic and democracy policy that
• 3:52
  they do there.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: and have been in the area focused on that ever since.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, and I'll add too, you mentioned beekeeping.
• 4:01
  I currently live on Savi Island with a horse and a pony and a
• 4:06
  bunch of chickens.
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  So that is another area of my life outside of policy and
• 4:11
  research that I really enjoy.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: Well, good.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: You're not one dimensional.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: You have many facets.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: That's good to know.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mentioned beekeeping.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: I tried my hand at amateur beekeeping last season.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: A friend of mine actually helped me capture a
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: a migrating swarm.
• 4:30
  We successfully did that and transplanted it into my box and
• 4:35
  things were going great.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: I loved it.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: I had so much fun just going into the backyard and watching them.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's fascinating to me.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: They take the same flight paths.
• 4:45
  When they come back and they're burdened with pollen,
• 4:48
  they almost look drunk.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: They have trouble sometimes executing the landing.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's just so much fun to watch them.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: And then my hive was assassinated by wasps or hornets,
• 5:02
  probably hornets or yellow jackets actually is probably what
• 5:06
  took them out.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I was devastated.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: My poor hive, my queen.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: I think they went in there and assassinated her.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: And then it was a brutal fight.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: I caught some of it on live video footage,
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: which I'm happy to show you after we're done with this episode.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: But I was devastated.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: I
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: had to pack it all up, but I'm committed.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: I'm already signed up.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: This time I'm not going to rely on capturing a hive in the wild.
• 5:31
  I've signed up with local beekeepers to get a neck from them
• 5:35
  and I'll be getting it
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: in a couple of weeks.
• 5:37
  And now I've gone on way too much about beekeeping,
• 5:39
  but I'm very excited about this.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: Good luck.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: Good luck.
• 5:44
  And I'm assuming there's nothing you can do to intervene in a
• 5:46
  situation where
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: The queen is being attacked.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: It seemed ill-advised, yeah.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know that my bees,
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: whom I loved,
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: would have perceived me as trying to be helpful in that moment.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: Right, yes, yes.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: But it was really traumatic.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_02: All right, well, that's not what we're here to talk about, although...
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: That would be a fun episode.
• 6:06
  What we are here to talk about is a little bit about the local
• 6:10
  tax landscape.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: And you've really kind of done a deep dive into this topic.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: So give us a little bit.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: What has your research been about?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: So back before the pandemic,
• 6:21
  I spent a couple of years with folks at PSU looking into the
• 6:29
  current service level
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: of local governments across the state.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: So that's counties,
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: cities,
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: school districts,
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: special service districts,
• 6:37
  and trying to understand would these jurisdictions be able to
• 6:41
  continue to provide
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: the same level of service that they did in 2018 and
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: for the next even just four years moving forward.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: And what we found,
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: unfortunately,
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: is that no,
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: most places were not going to be able to do that,
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: given the current trajectory for revenues,
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: primarily property taxes,
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: and
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: the trajectory for expenses.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: This is 2018.
• 7:03
  This was 2018 and we were looking forward to across the state,
• 7:07
  34 jurisdictions.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: So looking forward to 2022, that was one piece of the research.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: When you were,
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: sorry to interrupt you,
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: when you were doing that in 2018,
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: did you predict a pandemic for
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: No, we did not.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: We did not predict the pandemic.
• 7:22
  And that was interesting because it actually masked some of the
• 7:26
  fiscal strain that
• 7:28
  jurisdictions were we anticipated they would be feeling because
• 7:32
  a lot of federal
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: resources were provided.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately,
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: some fortunately,
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: unfortunately,
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
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  SPEAKER_00: but a lot of jurisdictions use those federal resources to backfill.
• 7:42
  Well,
• 7:43
  this is fascinating to me because,
• 7:44
  I mean,
• 7:45
  what we will get into more is Portland.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously,
• 7:48
  this is a podcast that takes place in Portland and pretty much
• 7:52
  focuses on issues in
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: the city.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: But you are talking about looking at this in community.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: across our state, seeing the structural challenges coming for them.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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  And I think that's actually really important to keep in mind
• 8:05
  when we talk about
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: what's happening in Portland,
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: because it's not just a local issue.
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  It's an issue that affects jurisdictions across the state and
• 8:13
  across the country,
• 8:14
  really.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of this is driven by
• 8:20
  nationwide trends and issues around service cost and pressures
• 8:24
  that drive up that cost.
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  And I think we have to be honest when we're talking about that
• 8:29
  and not just blame
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: local elected leaders for the current situation.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: Are you familiar,
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: this was some years ago now,
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: but I remember hearing 911 calls in Grants Pass,
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: Oregon,
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: where people were
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: in the process of potential very seriously being assaulted.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: And it's very traumatic.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: And the 911 operator said, I'm sorry, there's nobody that we can send.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: And that was a...
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, essentially a revenue issue.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: They didn't have the money to have sheriff's deputies on the road.
• 9:07
  And so in that community where taxes are incredibly low and
• 9:10
  voters over and over
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: and over again reject any way of raising those,
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: they simply just didn't have...
• 9:17
  the capacity to respond to what was a very serious criminal
• 9:21
  situation happening.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: And that was then too, the situation hasn't gotten better.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's not improved.
• 9:28
  So for places that are resistant to raising revenue to try to
• 9:32
  maintain or increase
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: service levels,
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: we just see this decreasing.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: We see
• 9:40
  Sheriff's offices that only operate part time or they don't
• 9:42
  have enough deputies to
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: respond to the number of calls.
• 9:45
  And those have to be triaged in a way that you end up with
• 9:49
  calls that seem really
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: shocking that you would expect someone to respond to.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: And nobody is available to do that.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: Is this part of a larger trend that you're seeing?
• 9:59
  It seems to me that we're seeing the federal government pick up
• 10:04
  less and less,
• 10:05
  which is forcing local jurisdictions to come up with more and
• 10:09
  more of the revenue
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: that they need to provide the basics for their constituents.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's definitely a part of it.
• 10:16
  Federal investment and support of state and local governments
• 10:20
  has been decreasing
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: over the past decade and a half,
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: maybe longer.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's one piece.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: Another major piece,
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: and again,
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: this isn't specific to Oregon,
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: but back in the 80s and 90s,
• 10:33
  folks that were designing public employee retirement systems
• 10:38
  had this idea that
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: returns would continue to be really,
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: really high in those investments.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: So they made promises to public employees based off of that.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: And those really generous
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: retirements are something that not just Oregon,
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: but other states are accountable for paying and we have to pay.
• 10:58
  There's no way around it,
• 11:00
  but we didn't see the returns that folks at that time
• 11:04
  anticipated.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: So what that has meant is that
• 11:09
  jurisdictions essentially need to pull more and more resources
• 11:12
  from payroll to go
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: towards paying those retired public employees.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: I heard a stat the other day about Portland Public Schools,
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: PPS,
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: and my memory's a little foggy,
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: maybe you know it.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: Something like almost 30% of their budget has to go to cover
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: Retired employees.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's correct.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that's, again, not just it's not a Portland public schools problem.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a city of Portland problem.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's not even a state of Oregon problem.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: This was really.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: because of a thought process that everyone in the 80s and 90s,
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: when we had really high investment returns,
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: just expected those returns to continue.
• 11:51
  So if we want to point the finger at anybody,
• 11:53
  it really should be public leaders at that point.
• 11:57
  So we should point the figure at the people who set the
• 12:00
  retirements who are currently
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: Not even the retired folks.
• 12:07
  I think it's the policymakers from the 80s and 90s who thought
• 12:10
  we would be able to
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: pay these really generous amounts,
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: which would be great.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, our public employees deserve support in retirement.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: They deserve to be able to retire.
• 12:22
  It was just that the plan that was envisioned at that point is
• 12:27
  not sustainable and
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: hasn't been sustainable.
• 12:30
  And that's hitting governments,
• 12:31
  not only across our state,
• 12:33
  but across states across the country.
• 12:35
  And actually,
• 12:36
  in other states,
• 12:37
  the situation is even worse,
• 12:39
  if you can believe that.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that is great background context.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: Let's zoom in to Portland.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 12:47
  cause I know you've taken a deep dive and what I have seen over
• 12:51
  and over again in
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: the media on social media,
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 12:55
  there's a person running for governor on the Republican party
• 12:59
  and he's throwing out
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_02: quotes right now that are,
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 13:01
  Portland is either the most tax place in the country or the
• 13:04
  second highest tax
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: place in the country.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and, um,
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 13:08
  of course I do a little bit of research into these claims and
• 13:11
  it's not that he's
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: necessarily wrong,
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: but it depends what you're talking about.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: But you've kind of dove into some of that.
• 13:17
  So tell us a little bit about your work around looking at
• 13:19
  Portland's tax burden.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll say just to respond directly to that statement,
• 13:27
  a lot of folks really focus in on Portland's income tax as
• 13:31
  being one of the highest
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: in the country.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I did dig around and I wanted to make sure I got all of this
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then could report it accurately.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: But so in terms of the highest personal income tax bracket,
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: Portland is ranked sixth in the country.
• 13:47
  There are several states that have a higher rate for their
• 13:51
  highest brackets.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: That said,
• 13:54
  it is true that between the range of about four thousand and
• 13:58
  seventy thousand,
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: Portland taxes those folks the highest in terms of income taxes only.
• 14:05
  That does not mean that that group of people actually pays the
• 14:09
  highest taxes to
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: either the city or the state.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I might have said that wrong.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just talking about the Oregon piece right now.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: Not the city.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: Not the city.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: So just in terms of state taxes.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: Compared to other places,
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oregon taxes folks in the $4,000 to $70,000 range,
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: the highest in personal income taxes only.
• 14:34
  That said,
• 14:35
  other states like Minnesota have a 5% to 6% income tax rate for
• 14:42
  that population.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then they also charge 6% in sales tax.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: Folks that earn that amount spend most of their money in a year.
• 14:53
  So they're probably paying higher state taxes overall than
• 14:57
  folks in Oregon who are
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: paying an 8% income tax rate.
• 15:01
  So I think that's important to keep in mind that we don't have
• 15:05
  a state sales tax.
• 15:08
  And when we're talking about the total resources that residents
• 15:15
  pay in taxes,
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: That comes from various sources in other places.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: In Oregon, it primarily comes from income and property taxes.
• 15:23
  So when somebody says our income tax is the highest or this
• 15:26
  high or whatever,
• 15:28
  true.
• 15:29
  But when you look at the tax burden that individuals or
• 15:33
  families are facing,
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: it's not as clear cut of a picture or actually...
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: we're not in that high range.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: And overall,
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: and then this is speaking more to Portland specifically,
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: if we add up all of the income,
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: property,
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: taxes,
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: charges,
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: utilities,
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: fees,
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: and then the state and local tax burden,
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Portlanders pay in the 59th percentile
• 16:04
  This is compared to 150 other cities that have a population of
• 16:09
  200,000 or more.
• 16:11
  So if we look at the total obligation per capita as a percent
• 16:16
  of total mean income
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: for a location,
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: Portland ranks 83rd in that list of 150.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: That is not the perception.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right, right.
• 16:31
  And the interesting thing about that too is I think a lot of
• 16:37
  other places,
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: not only do they rely on sales taxes,
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: which we don't have,
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: but they also rely on charges for highways,
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: for parks and rec,
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: for community development.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: Portland really does not.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: So it's more of a question.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: I grew up in New York.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so we had a sales tax.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I love that Oregon doesn't have sales tax.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: But also, like you're saying, I mean, we had thruways.
• 17:02
  We had to pay a toll every time we hopped on the highway to get
• 17:05
  from my town to the city over.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not something that exists here.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: In Oregon.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that actually speaks to the values of the city.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: Those charges,
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: just like sales tax,
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: tend to be more regressive because everybody who uses that thoroughfare,
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: who uses the park,
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: they pay the same amount,
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: whether they're low or high income.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: It seems that in Portland,
• 17:33
  we've really placed a value on trying to ask folks who earn
• 17:38
  more to pay less.
• 17:43
  a share of their income that is comparable to what lower income
• 17:47
  folks are paying.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas in other places,
• 17:49
  lower income folks end up paying a much higher overall share of
• 17:54
  their income to
• 17:55
  taxes or charges because there's a sales tax and then because
• 17:59
  they're having to pay
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: all of these fees and charges at the same rate as everyone else.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: So in your work,
• 18:06
  you mentioned that Portland is around the 59th percentile if
• 18:10
  you take into account
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: all of these things.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things that I heard you say was utilities.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I love that because I think we so frequently...
• 18:19
  And this conversation has dominated around looking at a
• 18:22
  specific tax and then
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: saying,
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: see,
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: we're the highest tax in the country.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: And people are trying to make political hay out of that.
• 18:29
  But it is an entire system of things that you get in return for
• 18:35
  your money.
• 18:37
  And the taxes or fees or charges that you have to pay on
• 18:40
  utilities is part of that package.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: And utilities are publicly owned in some regards, right?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, a lot of most of them.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so,
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: so that's another,
• 18:49
  I think that has been my frustration with this conversation is
• 18:54
  it hasn't been
• 18:55
  around the entire basket of fees and taxes and charges and
• 18:59
  everything that people
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: have to pay to,
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: that you have to pay.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: You have no choice.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's, it's your income tax.
• 19:05
  Yes,
• 19:05
  but it's your property and it's all the fees and other things
• 19:08
  that we get charged.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: And that really seems to me to be the most relevant comparison.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: If you're going to compare a city to a city.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's,
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a bit disingenuous to look at one specific tax and say,
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: see,
• 19:22
  this is super high and not look at overall how much are people
• 19:27
  being charged,
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: compared in Portland compared to people in other places.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so your analysis putting,
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: Portland taxpayers at the 59th percentile,
• 19:36
  does that include our newer taxes that we've added on our
• 19:39
  preschool for all our
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: supportive housing services?
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that included, that includes, um,
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Income taxes on businesses as well.
• 19:48
  So the whole suite of revenue sources that our county and city
• 19:54
  depend on and our
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: school districts depend on goes into that analysis.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: And this data comes from the Lincoln Institute of Land Policy.
• 20:06
  What they've done essentially is they've collected all of these
• 20:08
  revenue sources and
• 20:10
  then calculated per capita how much each city charges their
• 20:15
  residents or not just
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: the city,
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: but again,
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: how much residents pay overall for all of these taxes.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: This data that I'm referencing is from 2023.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it is post preschool for all and PSAF and yeah.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: And we are talking right now a lot about individuals and families.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: We're not necessarily talking about the business side of the equation,
• 20:37
  which that's not as much your expertise or at least the
• 20:40
  research that you've done.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't done a lot of research on the business side of things.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: What I will say is, again, I think...
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: So not a lot of places charge business income tax.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's just not as common.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: That said...
• 20:58
  If they're not charging a business income tax,
• 20:59
  they are charging a sales tax.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: They're getting it some other way.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they are getting it some other way.
• 21:04
  And what's really tricky is to compare what businesses pay in
• 21:10
  Portland to other
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: places when other places have a sales tax,
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: for instance.
• 21:14
  So a sales tax,
• 21:16
  usually folks think,
• 21:17
  oh,
• 21:17
  the consumer pays that,
• 21:18
  which yes,
• 21:19
  they do.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: But the burden of that tax is
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: can be held by businesses.
• 21:26
  It just depends really on what,
• 21:28
  sorry,
• 21:28
  this is going to get a little wonky.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: The elasticity of demand is for a product.
• 21:33
  So if demand is really inelastic,
• 21:36
  meaning like gas,
• 21:38
  for instance,
• 21:38
  got to have it.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: People, they can't easily change their commutes every day.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: That tax will be born primarily by the consumer.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: If it's something that consumers don't need to have as much,
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: like let's say it's- Baseball cards.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: That sales tax will be borne primarily by the producer.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: Got it.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: So-
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: I find this fascinating because one,
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: this is not the conversation that I'm hearing in local politics,
• 22:13
  even from the governor of this state seems to be very focused
• 22:16
  on the need to reduce
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: taxes.
• 22:18
  And part of the reason that I'm hearing why taxes need to be
• 22:22
  reduced are taxes.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: burden needs to be reduced.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: Not only is it being framed as one of the highest in the country,
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: but that people are choosing to leave.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: I know that's not necessarily your area of research,
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: but I'm sure you've come across some research as you
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: have dove into some of these tax questions.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: What are you seeing out there about people leaving based on taxes?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: Professor John Roark,
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: he's an economics professor at Reed College,
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: just released some research on this.
• 22:52
  What they tried to do in that paper was really dig in to
• 22:56
  understand what the impact
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: of preschool for all has been on people who
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: migrating or leaving the county.
• 23:04
  It's challenging because Preschool for All came about around
• 23:08
  the same time that we
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: had a pandemic.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: There were racial protests in the city.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: We've had a mental health.
• 23:17
  health crisis,
• 23:18
  a homelessness crisis,
• 23:19
  and all of these things came to a head at the same time.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really hard to tease out.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think they call that it's noisy data.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 23:26
  So this paper really tried to isolate the impact of just
• 23:30
  preschool for all.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: And again, with the caveat that it's really challenging to do that.
• 23:35
  They did find that some high income households have left the
• 23:40
  county,
• 23:41
  but I think it's hard to
• 23:45
  really move away from all of the other things that were
• 23:47
  happening at that time and,
• 23:49
  and,
• 23:49
  um,
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: I've seen some back and forth from some of the elected officials,
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: who have been,
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: corresponding through the media on this topic.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 24:00
  and the most recent I saw was that actually maybe more people
• 24:04
  were moving into
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: Multnomah County and not a huge amount,
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: but more.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so it, it does seem to be noisy.
• 24:10
  Well,
• 24:11
  and I think so,
• 24:12
  um,
• 24:13
  his work for instance,
• 24:14
  found no impact on people moving in.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, um, I think I'm getting that correctly.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh,
• 24:21
  Where they saw an impact was folks who were already in the
• 24:23
  county moving out,
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: but that the immigration has stayed the same.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: That said,
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: if immigration is constant and more people are leaving,
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: that is they calculated an overall revenue loss to the state,
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: actually,
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: from people not just leaving the county,
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: but a lot of them potentially moving to Vancouver,
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: Washington.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's another tricky aspect of Portland's tax approach.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's both the Multnomah County and the Portland City taxes.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: And then there's, so then that's compared to, I think,
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: some of our surrounding metropolitan area.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: So Washington County, Clackamas County.
• 25:05
  But then there's just hop across the river and you don't have
• 25:08
  to pay income tax at
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: all,
• 25:10
  yet you can still work and play and enjoy all the great things
• 25:15
  that Portland
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: provides.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: That seems like a real, what do they call that?
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like a free rider problem or something like that.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, there's this narrative, right?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: That people will
• 25:27
  Live in Vancouver and then shop in Portland because they can
• 25:31
  avoid sales tax and
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: avoid income tax if they're not also working in Portland.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: If that was true, you might assume that Vancouver has no businesses.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:45
  But I think they do have grocery stores and they do have other
• 25:48
  types of stores.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: So clearly people are still shopping where they live.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know to what extent that narrative is real.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't researched it.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: But it does, I think...
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: Make it tricky for policymakers here when they are considering,
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: maybe bringing up a new tax for voters to consider that.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: Are we sufficiently taking into account our neighboring jurisdictions?
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: Not just Washington, but a Washington County or a Clackamas County.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: We do have the metro government system,
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: which is a little bit unique,
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: which is where our supportive housing services tax goes.
• 26:32
  Washington County and Clackamas County pay into that and also
• 26:35
  benefit from it.
• 26:36
  But should we have more of a kind of metro conversation when
• 26:41
  we're looking at taxes
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: as opposed to like a city led conversation?
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: Is that something that you might encourage policymakers to consider?
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think it makes sense to look at it.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: But I also,
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 26:52
  having a varied tax system in different places allows residents
• 26:57
  to choose what
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: level of service they want to receive.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know,
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: Places like the circles back to the beginning of our conversation,
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: places that collect less revenue overall tend to provide fewer services.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: folks can kind of decide like,
• 27:15
  what is the level of service that makes sense for me and what I
• 27:19
  want to benefit
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: from in my community?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: And, um,
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 27:26
  I'm so glad that we've circled back to that because I do really
• 27:29
  think that that is
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: maybe a less spoken part of this conversation.
• 27:35
  I think a lot of folks want to jump to we're the worst in the
• 27:38
  country or we're the
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: 50th in the country,
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: whatever it is.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: People love to do comparisons.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: Really,
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: at the end of the day,
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: the question is,
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: what are the services I'm receiving in return for the taxes that I pay?
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: Do I think that's worth it or not?
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: I've heard a lot of frustration around those issues.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: Take the preschool for all tax, for example.
• 28:03
  I think part of the frustration that I've heard people voicing
• 28:06
  is that it's not
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: actually for all.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: At this point,
• 28:10
  it's the rollout is slow and there are big surpluses of money
• 28:16
  that are sitting
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: there for this tax.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: similarly with the SHS funds,
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: the housing services funds as well,
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: that the surpluses are high and maybe people don't see the returns.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: So,
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 28:29
  does your research at all touch on how people might be feeling
• 28:33
  in terms of how much
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: they're paying?
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: if they're getting back enough for the taxes that they're paying.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: Do you see anything out there about that?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't have too much research on perceptions.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: We actually are putting out a survey.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this is a great point to talk about that.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: Let's talk about your survey.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: In April,
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: so mid-April,
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: the survey is going out,
• 28:56
  and this survey will be focused on understanding Portlanders'
• 29:00
  perceptions of taxes,
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: the city's growth trajectory,
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: And the quality of services that they receive.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: So folks want to.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: How.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I will put the survey in the show notes.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_02: We'll link to it.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: But for folks who are driving and listening to.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: So if you go to OVBC dot info slash.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: You can respond to the survey.
• 29:27
  We would greatly appreciate it as this will inform the
• 29:30
  conversation around what
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: Portland does moving forward in terms of,
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: taxes,
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: growth,
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: and how we think about providing services,
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: the level of service provision that we offer.
• 29:42
  One of the biggest frustrations for me has been a lot of the
• 29:46
  conversation and I'll
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: just use preschool for all.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: I have two small kids.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of the conversation has been negative about that program.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's not going fast enough, isn't it?
• 29:57
  I would love to see that instead of focusing on the negative,
• 30:02
  focusing on the positive.
• 30:04
  How can this be a recruitment tool to get young professionals
• 30:07
  to move to Portland?
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the cost, I paid a child
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: Daycare costs.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's like $2,000 a month for a kid.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: That's $24,000 a year.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: And by the way, they have vacations just like the schools do.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so they have those days off.
• 30:27
  Parents are sent scrambling to figure out even for they're
• 30:30
  paying $24,000 a year.
• 30:33
  I mean,
• 30:33
  you almost need an entire another job and income just to cover
• 30:37
  the cost.
• 30:38
  And I know that that impacts people's choices to enter the
• 30:42
  workforce in the labor market.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, some people are looking at this.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_02: What if you have two kids?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 30:50
  It actually doesn't make sense for one of us to be in the
• 30:52
  workforce right now.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: We are better off with somebody staying home.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: Now you're setting back careers.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_02: You're setting back earning potential over the long term.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, just massive things.
• 31:02
  I would love to see Multnomah County aggressively going out
• 31:06
  there to young
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: professionals and saying,
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: this is a place you want to raise your family.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_02: Look at what we're doing.
• 31:12
  I've been very frustrated that I don't feel like that case is
• 31:15
  being made anywhere.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:16
  And I think the other thing that's happening is people are
• 31:19
  really expecting to see
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: results right away.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: And these things take time to stand up.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's part of the frustration, too.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: And there hasn't been a lot of patience around,
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 31:32
  the development of the program and trying to really make it
• 31:36
  accessible for
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: everybody.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: and I think like all things,
• 31:41
  we were talking about the public benefits systems and when
• 31:45
  those benefits were
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: being contemplated,
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: the outlook was very rosy for returns on investment.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: That has not been borne out over the long run.
• 31:54
  Similarly,
• 31:55
  I think locally,
• 31:56
  when we look back to 2020,
• 31:58
  our economy was doing relatively good.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: We hadn't hit COVID yet.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: People were making decisions to pass these taxes.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: Today, it's feeling a little bit tighter.
• 32:08
  Will your survey kind of try to touch on some of those ambient
• 32:13
  economic factors?
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: A little bit.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: The focus is really on how people are...
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: perceiving services,
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: whether they would be open to new taxes,
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: what they think about growth and development in the city and what is,
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 32:32
  growth that spurs economic development and what is maybe growth
• 32:35
  that concerns them.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 32:38
  there are some questions around like how constrained are you
• 32:44
  feeling financially
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: right now and those types of things.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_02: So what I think, um,
• 32:50
  My takeaways from our conversation today have been that,
• 32:52
  first of all,
• 32:53
  it's nuanced.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's a little complicated.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: If anybody comes to you and says,
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 33:00
  Oregon is the lowest tax rate in the nation because we don't
• 33:04
  have sales tax.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: We're like, well, yeah, but we have other taxes.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: Conversely,
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: if they say Oregon's the worst in the country because of income tax,
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: it's like,
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: yes,
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: but we don't have other taxes.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 33:13
  So what I'm learning from our conversation today is that if
• 33:17
  somebody wants to be
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: informed and they are hearing some of these claims,
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 33:22
  maybe they should be a little bit skeptical and maybe
• 33:24
  considering more holistically
• 33:27
  the total overall burden in the services that we get in
• 33:30
  exchange for the taxes we
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: pay.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think,
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 33:35
  there's this other piece there that there just needs to be more
• 33:39
  education around
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: why the cost of providing services is growing.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a frustration that a lot of people feel they feel.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: And again, this is not specific to Portland.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's everywhere.
• 33:49
  People feel frustrated that they're being asked to pay more and
• 33:53
  more taxes and
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: they're not seeing anything.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: in their minds, a proportionate response in terms of service delivery.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: And there's just a lot of things.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: We didn't even get into property taxes and property tax limitations,
• 34:06
  but there's a lot of reasons for that that don't have to do
• 34:10
  with decisions made by
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: current elected leaders or administrators.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: And we didn't get into the kicker either, right?
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a whole other thing that we could do another podcast on.
• 34:26
  But I think so more grace when considering the decisions that
• 34:32
  elected leaders are
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: making in terms of the budget.
• 34:34
  And also,
• 34:36
  I would just ask folks to really lean in and educate themselves
• 34:40
  on what the
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: aspects of revenue and expenditures are that are driving these tensions.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then consider like, what does our community really need?
• 34:53
  Where might we be able to cut things that maybe less people are
• 34:58
  benefiting from?
• 34:59
  And where can we really move resources to support programs that
• 35:02
  are really
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: meaningful and important to the community?
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: If somebody listening to this show today wants to learn more,
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: they want to do what you suggest,
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: which is try to educate themselves,
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_02: maybe their friends and family,
• 35:17
  and be able to be a more sophisticated consumer of information
• 35:21
  on this topic.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_02: How do you suggest,
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: aside from they've just gotten a class from this episode,
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: but how should they do that?
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: it's a little bit dated now,
• 35:32
  but Northstar put together a website back in 2019 focused on
• 35:38
  this question of what
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: do local governments do?
• 35:40
  So the first thing is maybe just inform yourselves about which
• 35:43
  government provides
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: which service.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: The city and county do different things.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's one of my big pet peeves.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: So trying to understand who is responsible for what service.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: And we have a page on that.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's ournext20.org if you want to check it out.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then from there,
• 36:05
  I think if folks are really interested in understanding how
• 36:10
  taxes in Portland
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: compare to other places,
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: you can go to websites like the Lincoln Land Institute's website.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: page where they collect data on this and do the analysis for yourself.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to trust me or other experts.
• 36:26
  I think it's really important for people to look at the data
• 36:29
  and and feel like and
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: integrate it and not just depend on what others are saying.
• 36:36
  Well,
• 36:37
  Marina Kaminsky,
• 36:38
  thank you so much for coming on and talking to us about this.
• 36:42
  I warned you at the beginning of this episode that we like to
• 36:44
  play a little game at
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: the end of every episode to add a little bit of levity.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: And we prepared a game.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: for you called tax or fiction.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm going to read to you a tax that was either proposed or passed.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: And then you are going to tell me whether or not it is real or fiction.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then whether you think it's real or fiction,
• 37:07
  I'm going to ask you to opine on whether or not Portland voters
• 37:11
  would vote for that
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: tax or against it.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: And this tax is anywhere in the world?
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: Anywhere in the world.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: We're going to have some fun.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: So starting us off,
• 37:22
  Oregon passed a $15 excise tax on the purchase of every new
• 37:26
  adult bicycle priced at
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: $200 or more,
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_02: making it the first state in America to tax bicycle sales.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_02: True or false?
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's fiction.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't heard of it.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think Portland would pass such a tax?
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: I don't.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think so.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: I could see people attempting to do it.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you're one out of two.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: I think you're right.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: Portlanders probably wouldn't go for that.
• 37:52
  We love our bicycles here and taxing them seems
• 37:55
  counterproductive to encouraging
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: more people to ride.
• 37:58
  However,
• 37:58
  House Bill 2017 actually did tuck in a $15 flat tax on new bike
• 38:07
  sales over $200.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: When was this?
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: It has raised over a million dollars in 2022.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: No, I hadn't heard about that.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you're one for two.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: Next question.
• 38:20
  Denmark passed a law requiring farmers to pay approximately
• 38:23
  $110 per cow per year
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_02: in a methane emissions tax,
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: gas tax of sorts,
• 38:29
  specifically targeting the gas produced by bovine digestion and
• 38:32
  flatulence.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: I could see them doing that.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think Portlanders would go for that?
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have enough cows in Portland.
• 38:41
  Maybe we would vote for it,
• 38:42
  but I don't think it would raise much revenue.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: Well, hey, I'm going to give you two points on that.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_02: You're right.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_02: It is real.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I think Portlanders probably would go for that, right?
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: That strikes me as something maybe our vegan community would get behind.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_02: Next question.
• 39:00
  Spain's government imposed a fee on homeowners for generating
• 39:03
  their own electricity
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_02: using rooftop solar panels,
• 39:06
  essentially taxing people for harvesting the sunlight from
• 39:09
  their own roofs.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's real or not.
• 39:14
  Um,
• 39:15
  I,
• 39:17
  it doesn't,
• 39:18
  I don't think they should do that,
• 39:19
  but I think they may have done that.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you think Portland voters would go for that?
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: No, it is real.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_02: You are correct.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_02: And it has been universally mocked as the sun tax.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: Uh,
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: and I think it was repealed in 2018 after,
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: they figured out also what you already figured out,
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: which is that's a bad idea.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: All right, next one.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: In New York,
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: buying a whole unsliced bagel is tax-free,
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_02: but the moment a bagel is sliced,
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: toasted,
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: or receives any topping,
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: including a schmear of cream cheese,
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_02: it becomes prepared food and therefore subject to sales tax.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: I believe that.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: What about Portlanders?
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: Would we go for the schmear tax?
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_02: You're right.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_02: Any alteration to a bagel,
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: slicing it or anything else,
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_02: transforms it into a prepared food and that's subject to an 8% sales tax.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, we agree.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_02: Portland would say no.
• 40:15
  Now I know why my boyfriend's family who lives in New York only
• 40:19
  buys whole bagels.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_02: See, you figured it out.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: Again, I love this, right?
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_02: Behavioral economics, how people change and move.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know that.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 40:28
  Italy passed a law requiring shopkeepers to pay 100 euros per
• 40:31
  year if their store
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: awnings,
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: signs or outdoor seating cash shade onto any public sidewalk.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: Effectively, a tax on shade.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_02: You think that's real or fiction?
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: I don't.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's fiction.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_02: Fiction.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_02: You think Portland voters would go for that?
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_02: There's too much shade in Portland.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_02: Apparently it's real and technically still the law.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_02: Italy's 1993 regulation established the,
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not going to read it in Italian,
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: a fee for any private structure affecting public spaces,
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: including
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: including shade.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_02: Enforcement though is pretty inconsistent.
• 41:11
  Imagine standing there as the assessor being like waiting for
• 41:13
  the sun to hit a
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: perfect spot and hitting them.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we agree.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_02: Portlanders probably wouldn't go for that.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_02: Czar Peter the Great imposed a beard tax in 1698.
• 41:25
  Men who refused to shave paid an annual fee and were issued a
• 41:28
  copper coin stamped.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: The beard is a superfluous burden.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_02: Police could publicly shave non-compliant men on the spot.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think that really happened?
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's so ridiculous.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think it did happen.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: But Portlanders, no way.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_02: A beard tax?
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_02: We love our beard.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: We'd be in the streets.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_02: It is real.
• 41:48
  He returned from touring Western Europe and determined to
• 41:51
  modernize Russia.
• 41:52
  And the beards associated with the Orthodox tradition had to go
• 41:56
  for a price.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so they actually would find them.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, no way Portland goes, I got a beard myself.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm against it.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: In Sweden,
• 42:05
  parents are required to submit their child's name to the
• 42:07
  Swedish tax agency for
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_02: approval before the child's fifth birthday.
• 42:11
  Names deemed offensive,
• 42:12
  confusing or too unusual are rejected and parents face a fine.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, my gosh.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I guess I believe that one.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: The offensive name tax.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_02: Portlanders, no way.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_02: No way Portlanders go for that.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't think so.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: Although I do remember,
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: this just reminds me of,
• 42:35
  I went on a rabbit hole maybe 10 years ago reading about really
• 42:38
  strange names that
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: people have put on their children's birth certificates,
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: like a stop 16,
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: things like that.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_02: So you're in favor of it.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I'm in favor,
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: but there are some things that you're like,
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: probably you shouldn't name your kid that.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: There's a very famous book for economics, right?
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 42:57
  And I believe there's a chapter in there about children named
• 42:59
  Lemon Jell-O or
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_02: Lamangelo and Orange Jell-O,
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_02: Orangelo.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_02: That's better than Bus Stop 16, though.
• 43:07
  Yeah.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's better than bus stop 16.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_02: It is real.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_02: Sweden's naming law requires that type of oversight.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_02: And no, we think Portlanders probably wouldn't go for that.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_02: France's National Assembly proposed requiring social media.
• 43:23
  influencers with over 10,000 followers to pay a 15% digital
• 43:27
  vanity levy on the
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_02: retail value of any free products.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_02: Luckily, this show would still be underneath that tax.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_02: So that's maybe a positive.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_02: And what do you think?
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think that's real?
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_02: That proceeds would go to cultural equity fund?
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_02: Real tax Portland voters.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_02: We might go for that.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we might.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_02: It actually is fiction, but apparently France has been trying.
• 43:53
  They have gone further on influencer regulation,
• 43:56
  so maybe we're going to give them ideas.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_02: But I agree.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: Portland voters would probably say yes for influencers.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's just it seems like something the French would do.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: All right, you're doing really good.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: Two more.
• 44:08
  Japan's Ministry of Health proposed a corporate surcharge on
• 44:11
  any company allowing
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_02: employees to accumulate more than 10 unused vacation days per year,
• 44:17
  charging 2% of the employee's annual salary to fund a national
• 44:21
  rest and wellness
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: initiative.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: You think that really happened?
• 44:26
  So they're really kind of forcing you to take your vacation,
• 44:28
  I think,
• 44:29
  is what that is.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know about this one.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_02: Would Portland go for that?
• 44:42
  But they're charging a tax on companies that give their
• 44:46
  employees more than 10 days.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what I'm understanding?
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_02: If the employee accumulates more than 10 days.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, got it.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, maybe Portland would go for them.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_02: All right, let's see.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_02: It is fiction, so you're right about that.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, Portland would likely support this.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: So two for two on that one.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_02: All right, last one.
• 45:05
  A Portland city ordinance would require any household
• 45:07
  maintaining a live sourdough
• 45:09
  starter for more than 30 consecutive days to register it with
• 45:12
  the Bureau of
• 45:13
  Development Services for a $10 annual fee with proceeds funding
• 45:17
  community bread
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_02: baking programs and food deserts.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um...
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: No, I don't think people maybe it's been attempted.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think people people like their sourdough too much.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_02: So fiction, you're absolutely right.
• 45:30
  And at least the computer here thinks that Portlanders might
• 45:35
  actually go for that.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: But really, I feel like that would be very hard to enforce.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_02: Well, hey, overall, 16 out of 20.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_02: You did fantastic on our quiz.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_02: So you win the prize.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_02: Congratulations.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: What's the prize?
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_02: We'll figure that out later.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe some sourdough.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_02: Marina Kaminsky, thank you so much for coming on the show today.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_02: Here's what I want to leave you with.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_02: Taxes are not inherently good or bad.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_02: They are a tool.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_02: And like any tool, what matters is what you build with them.
• 46:15
  Who gets to decide and whether the people making those
• 46:18
  decisions are being honest
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_02: with you about the trade-offs.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_02: Portland voters have generally trusted that tool.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_02: They voted for services.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_02: They voted for kids.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_02: They voted for housing.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_02: And in many cases, those programs are working.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_02: Kids are getting preschool.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_02: People are getting housed.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_02: And the climate fund is doing real projects.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: But trust
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: is not unconditional.
• 46:38
  And when programs run big surpluses while services are still
• 46:41
  ramping slowly,
• 46:42
  when the people convened to evaluate them are almost
• 46:44
  exclusively from the business
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_02: community,
• 46:47
  when the governor of your own party starts firing shots at
• 46:50
  voter-approved programs,
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_02: voters are right to ask questions,
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: and hard ones.
• 46:55
  What I hope today's conversation gave you is a framework for
• 46:58
  asking those questions
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_02: with some actual grounding.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_02: Not taxes bad or taxes good, but what does the data actually say?
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_02: Who's benefiting and who's paying?
• 47:07
  And when someone in power tells you a story about Portland's
• 47:10
  economy,
• 47:10
  what's the source?
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: What's their agenda?
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_02: And what are they leaving out?
• 47:15
  Because here's the thing they don't tell you when they talk
• 47:17
  about the tax burden.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_02: There's also a cost to cutting.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_02: A kid who doesn't get preschool,
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: a family that loses health coverage,
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_02: a shelter that closes,
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_02: those costs are real.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: They just don't show up on anybody's balance sheet.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_02: Before I let you go, a quick word about the show.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_02: Our Substack subscriber list is well on its way to 100.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_02: And when we cross that threshold,
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_02: we're going to do something special for all of our subscribers.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_02: I've got a few fun ideas in mind, so stay tuned.
• 47:45
  A special shout out to Anthony and Adrian,
• 47:47
  two of our latest paying subscribers.
• 47:49
  People who sign up at $5 a month or $50 a year go a long way
• 47:53
  toward helping us defray our costs.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: Because even though the show is free to listen to, it's not free to make.
• 47:59
  Your support covers everything from the software we use to edit
• 48:02
  to the makeshift
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_02: studio space we rent to record in.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_02: We appreciate every single one of you.
• 48:07
  And a big thank you to our first ever business sponsor,
• 48:10
  theliferecording.com.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_02: Make sure you check them out in the services they provide.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_02: Link in the show notes.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, as always, help us grow the show.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like, subscribe, kick us a few bucks a month if you can.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_02: And most of all, tell a friend.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Mike Schmidt.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_02: This is The Schmidt Show PDX.
• 48:27
  If this conversation was useful to you,
• 48:29
  share it with someone who's still making up their mind.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_02: That's how we build an informed city.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_02: And we'll see you next time.