Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1235 - Doing Away With Punishments & Rewards

Transcript

#1235 - Doing Away With Punishments & Rewards · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: What if it was not a good idea to not
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  Speaker 1: just punish your children, but a bad idea to reward them.
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  Speaker 1: Imagine if somebody was to write a book that explained
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  Speaker 1: that rewards and punishments are the lowest form of education
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  Speaker 1: and there are so many different things we could be
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  Speaker 1: doing to help our children to behave in helpful ways,
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  Speaker 1: in fact, to go deeper to develop moral character. Hello,
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  Speaker 1: welcome to the Happy Families Podcast, Real Parenting Solutions every Day.
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  Speaker 1: It's Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. Thank you so much
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  Speaker 1: for joining us. We are Justin and Kylie Colson and Kylie.
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  Speaker 1: Today we're going to have a quick chat a preview
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  Speaker 1: of an interview that I did with one of the
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  Speaker 1: world's most fascinating people, I think, a guy called Alfie Cone.
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  Speaker 2: Let me read out his bio.
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  Speaker 1: Alfie Cone is a renowned author, educator, and social critic
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  Speaker 1: who's been challenging conventional wisdom in education, parenting, and human
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  Speaker 1: behavior for over three decades. Known for his provocative books
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  Speaker 1: including Punished by Rewards and The Schools Our Children Deserve,
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  Speaker 1: Alfiecone's been a vocal critic of standardized testing, traditional grading systems,
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  Speaker 1: and competitive educational approaches. His research back to arguments advocate
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  Speaker 1: for collaborative learning environments, unconditional parenting, and intrinsic motivation over
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  Speaker 1: reward based systems. As one of the world's most outspoken
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  Speaker 1: voices on these topics, he continues to influence teachers, parents
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  Speaker 1: and policymakers through his lectures, articles, and books that question
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  Speaker 1: our fundamental assumptions about how we learn and grow. And
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  Speaker 1: he's on the Happy Families podcast on Saturday. Such a
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  Speaker 1: great conversation. Kylie got to talk to him about some
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  Speaker 1: really cool stuff, and this was an interview that you
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  Speaker 1: listened to and just were blown away by.
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  Speaker 3: For an academic who writes very dry, listening to him
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  Speaker 3: is just an exercise of sitting on the edge of
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  Speaker 3: your seat the entire time. Everything that comes out out
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  Speaker 3: of his mouth is just a what.
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  Speaker 1: I don't even think he right strive, but the way
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  Speaker 1: he speaks, he's dynamic and excitable would be the word
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  Speaker 1: that I use.
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  Speaker 3: Passionate.
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  Speaker 2: Passionate. Yeah, that's right.
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  Speaker 1: So we're going to share just two snippets of a much, much,
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  Speaker 1: much much longer conversation in today's podcast. We'll replay the
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  Speaker 1: whole thing on Saturday. I think that you're going to
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  Speaker 1: love it. We're going to start by sharing a thing
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  Speaker 1: that he shared with me when I asked him what
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  Speaker 1: is the problem with punishment, Here's what he said.
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  Speaker 4: Punishment teaches power. It undermines the possibility of moral growth
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  Speaker 4: in children. If I say to kids, do this, or
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  Speaker 4: here's how I'm going to make you suffer, which is
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  Speaker 4: what punishment is. And by the way, you can call
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  Speaker 4: it consequences, it's still the same thing. It says to kids,
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  Speaker 4: do this or here's what I'm going to do to you.
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  Speaker 4: Then kids are first of all, thinking only about themselves,
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  Speaker 4: how do I avoid the punishment? Never about the impact
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  Speaker 4: of their actions on others. All use of consequences, punishment
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  Speaker 4: focuses kids narrowly on self interest.
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  Speaker 1: That was about forty seconds. There are so many things
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  Speaker 1: that we can pull out of that that. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: this is dense. There is a lot for us to discuss.
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  Speaker 3: The thing that stands out to me specifically here is
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  Speaker 3: the word I. I have read his works, I have
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  Speaker 3: listened to him specifically talk about this topic a number
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  Speaker 3: of times now, and maybe I've just forgotten, but hearing
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  Speaker 3: at this time the recognition that while ever we provide
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  Speaker 3: a consequence for our child. Essentially, what we are doing
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  Speaker 3: is turning their thinking inward.
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  Speaker 1: So the way that I described this when I'm teaching
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  Speaker 1: similar principle is that punishment makes kids the victim and
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  Speaker 1: they start to think about themselves. Like if you stick
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  Speaker 1: a child in time out to think about what they've done,
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  Speaker 1: they just think about how much they hate you, how
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  Speaker 1: unfair you are, how you don't understand what's going on.
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  Speaker 1: It makes it all about them, And like you said,
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  Speaker 1: therefore it undermines moral growth and it exacerbates, it amplifies
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  Speaker 1: selfishness because I'm thinking about me rather than the impact
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  Speaker 1: of what I did and how it affected other people.
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  Speaker 3: And then if you take it the next step further,
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  Speaker 3: then how do I avoid punishment actually pushes bad behavior underground?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, we.
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  Speaker 3: Just find ways to do the same thing without getting
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  Speaker 3: caught next time. I think about the numerous times, whether
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  Speaker 3: it be in the classroom, even in our home from
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  Speaker 3: time to time where kids have literally said you can't
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  Speaker 3: do that to me, they're not thinking about what they've done.
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  Speaker 3: They're literally thinking about how they get away with doing.
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  Speaker 3: What they're doing is a no. That idea of a
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  Speaker 3: moral compass. There isn't one.
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  Speaker 1: And that is the thing when I'm talking about why
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  Speaker 1: we need to move away from punishments, it's because of
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  Speaker 1: moral reasons. If I'm only doing something out of self interest,
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  Speaker 1: then I'm not going to experience the inner growth. I'm
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  Speaker 1: not going to develop the moral character that's necessary for
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  Speaker 1: me to understand that. I'm not going to develop the
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  Speaker 1: empathy because it's just about if I do it, what's
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  Speaker 1: going to happen to me?
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  Speaker 2: Or if I don't do it, what's going to happen
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  Speaker 2: to me? Am I willing? It makes everything transactional. I
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  Speaker 2: think it breeds psychopathy.
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  Speaker 3: And when you see it so starkly put like that,
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  Speaker 3: you can see how within school systems specifically, because we're
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  Speaker 3: talking about children, you've almost got this vicious cycle happening
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  Speaker 3: between kids doing the wrong things, teachers punishing or providing
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  Speaker 3: consequences for their behavior, which then in turn creates a
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  Speaker 3: bigger dynamic that's going on, and we just keep going
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  Speaker 3: around in this ugly, ugly circle of kids who then
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  Speaker 3: become labeled for being troubling kids, but the systems actually
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  Speaker 3: creating it.
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  Speaker 1: You've used the word consequences several times now as you've
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  Speaker 1: been talking about it, and I'm really glad that Alfie
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  Speaker 1: points this out that punishment and consequences are basically synonymous.
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  Speaker 1: It's just that consequences is a diluted, softer, nicer.
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  Speaker 3: Way, so we feel like we're being a good person
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  Speaker 3: because we're not punishing them.
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  Speaker 2: That's right. There's just consequences to what you've done. Now.
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  Speaker 1: Now, it's true that consequences exist whether you apply them
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  Speaker 1: or not. But really, at the heart of it, punishment
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  Speaker 1: is about applying the kinds of consequences that lead to suffering,
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  Speaker 1: but they don't necessarily lead to learning.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I like that.
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  Speaker 1: After the break, we're going to talk about something else
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  Speaker 1: that Alfie Kohn is not a fan of rewards.
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  Speaker 2: Okay.
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  Speaker 1: One of the most fascinating conversations that I've ever had
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  Speaker 1: on the podcast was with Alphie Carr. Alphacone's written some
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  Speaker 1: of the most influential books in my life. Unconditional Parenting
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  Speaker 1: and Punished by Rewards are two books that I leave
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  Speaker 1: in my top ten at all times. They're just phenomenal books.
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  Speaker 1: And he answered my question when I asked, what's the problem?
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  Speaker 1: I get the issue with punishment. What's the problem with
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  Speaker 1: rewards because so many parents really do want to reward
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  Speaker 1: to bribe their kids.
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  Speaker 2: Here's what he said.
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  Speaker 4: Rewards are just the flip side of punishment. So if
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  Speaker 4: I reward children or offer to reward them, I'm saying,
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  Speaker 4: do this and you'll get that. So in the first case,
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  Speaker 4: with punishment, kids come to ask the question what do
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  Speaker 4: they want me to do? And what happens to me
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  Speaker 4: if I don't do it. If you offer a reward
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  Speaker 4: for good behavior, which typically means mindlessly obedient, not generous
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  Speaker 4: or thoughtful, then the question kids come to ask is
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  Speaker 4: what do they want me to do and what do
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  Speaker 4: I for doing it? And so the research is very
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  Speaker 4: clear that rewards, like punishments, can only get temporary compliance,
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  Speaker 4: and in both cases they retard moral and social and
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  Speaker 4: intellectual development.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, this guy's so good on the surface, you think
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  Speaker 3: that by offering your children a reward, you're encouraging them
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  Speaker 3: to do good things. And yet his words, just what
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  Speaker 3: is it that I'm trying to achieve when I ask
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  Speaker 3: my child to do something? When I suggest that if
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  Speaker 3: they do X, Y and Z, there's a reward, no
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  Speaker 3: parent is going to ask for mindless obedience.
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  Speaker 2: Well, every now and again, it's kind of handy.
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  Speaker 1: I'm not going to lie like sometimes it's just just
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  Speaker 1: do it, don't even ask, just do it. But again,
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  Speaker 1: if you go back to the punishment conversation, what we're
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  Speaker 1: really loving for is character.
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  Speaker 2: We're looking for moral de development.
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  Speaker 3: But mindless obedience only helps them while ever you're in
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  Speaker 3: the room, precisely as soon as you're not there, there's
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  Speaker 3: no moral compass guiding their every move.
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  Speaker 1: Wouldn't it be nice if they had developed the character
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  Speaker 1: to look for ways that they could serve and have
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  Speaker 1: an impact in the lives of others, So that, for example,
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  Speaker 1: if you were away for a couple of hours, you
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  Speaker 1: came home and they cleaned up the kitchen or hung
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  Speaker 1: out a lot of washing or done something like that,
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  Speaker 1: why not because they want not because they want a rod,
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  Speaker 1: but because they've recognized that there's a need and they're
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  Speaker 1: inclined to help. We will have a much longer conversation
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  Speaker 1: with Alfie Cone on Saturday. We just wanted to give
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  Speaker 1: you a taste because my goodness, is this an interview
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  Speaker 1: that you want to catch to home?
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  Speaker 3: Miss out?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, So that's on Saturday the full thing.
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  Speaker 1: Alfie Cone, author Social critic, commentator.
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  Speaker 2: And all round a genius is what I'm going to say.
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  Speaker 1: Genius and the author of some of my favorite book
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  Speaker 1: books will play the whole interview for you on Saturday.
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  Speaker 2: I think that you're going to absolutely love it.
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  Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: Bridge Media. For more information and resources to make your
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  Speaker 1: family happier, visit happyfamilies dot com dot a