Latest / The Pluralist Podcast - with Orly Erez-Likhovski and Rabbi Josh Weinberg / October 7, Where Are We Three Years Later? Memory, Accountability, and Moving Forward
Transcript
- Josh Weinberg: Orly just you were telling me about the the Tekus, the ceremony at the college today at HUC in Jerusalem. what was me? Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, so we had today, yeah, we had today's ceremony commemorating October seventh because it was the first day of the school year at the HUC. So we had I joined them Yeah, it was the opening of school year, yeah. So Josh Weinberg: it was the opening of the school year today. Wow, wow. For the for the Israeli rabbinic program, of course. Orly Erez Likhovski: yes, so we had it was a moving ceremony and then one of the rabbinical students, Zoar Vigdori, whose family members were kidnapped, his sister in law and his nephew alongside other family members, told the story. Josh Weinberg: who are his family members? or Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, Sharona Victoria and her her daughter is Norm. And Josh Weinberg: Mm. Orly Erez Likhovski: they so he told the story of their kidnap but mostly about the struggle to get them back. They came back in the first hostage deal, which was yeah, after fifty Josh Weinberg: In November of twenty three, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: days, but just reminding how the government members were just completely not supportive of them from day one that they actually had to forced their way into, you know, meeting government ministries, government ministers and they really did not care about them from the first day. I mean it was astounding, it was unbelievable. just remind Josh Weinberg: mean it's it's like we it's like we know that on an intellectual level, but then when you hear it from him, I you know, something like that, which I I didn't hear I you were telling it it's it's so vivid and it's just so absurd to it just it's it's just impossible to imagine that especially those who talk about unity all the time and and and you know we have to say together an Ami Srael like that th they wouldn't care. I and they care deeply about the soldiers in theory. or they s proclaim to but then just not to care about like it you know, those lives who were kidding. I mean, it it's it's unbelievable. N not to say Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, it is. Josh Weinberg: anything about like I don't even get into it, like Palestinian land and all that question, Orly Erez Likhovski: it was really moving and important and I think you know, the fact that we are so close to the elections and the fact that we are commemorating October seventh, I think it's really mind boggling just to to understand that nobody, you know, no government representative gave any you know, was held accountable to this to this event. And you know, it's it's now being said that even Josh Weinberg: Yeah, yeah, that's I mean Orly Erez Likhovski: if we would be able to to have a state commission of inquiry so so much time has passed that it's gonna be really, really difficult to actually Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: To piece together facts and testimonies and and actual real data and like you know, and and piece together. Orly Erez Likhovski: Welcome back to the Pluralist Podcast from both sides of the ocean. I am Oli Erasikovsky, Executive Director of the Israel Religious Action Centre. Josh Weinberg: And I'm Rabbi John Schweinberg, Vice President for Israel and Reform Zionism for the URJ and Director of Artsa. Hi, Orley, how are you? How are you? It's a it Orly Erez Likhovski: Hi, Josh. Josh Weinberg: that's the question that I think people always you never know how to ask. Like simple question, how are you? Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. so yeah, we are now really you know a a chale chagim, right? After the holidays, we've concluded the high holidays and we are really starting this time of routine. no holidays until Hanukkah, so that's like when school year really starts in Israel. But I think Exactly. But I think Josh Weinberg: Yeah, quoted back to normal, quote unquote, right? That's yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: it's that's you know, it's since October seventh, three years ago, everything has shifted and changed and Simchatuah has been changed forever. so how how was your synchatoa? Josh Weinberg: My Simchatura was a bit you know, quiet, I would say. I would say quiet, you know, and even thinking that, you know, now we in our Israeli Yom Kippur service we included liturgy for October seventh that I think will now be you know, I think about some of our liturgy from the Sidur, especially when we come to the Yi Skor prayers, you know, the memorial prayers that were written in the Middle Ages talking about times when Jews were burned and killed and kidnapped and raped and all sorts of horrible things. and then October 7th will be similar to that, that you know, a thousand years from now, we may be still reading the same, you know, keynote as we say, dirges or lamentational liturgy, if I were to frame it in weird English, you know, to to to commemorate these moments. But here we are. three years later or the and one of the things I was thinking about specifically is actually the date in which we commemorate this in that, you know, if you think about the Yom Kippur War, no one calls it the war of the of October sixth. Okay. We call it the Yom Kippur War. But somehow I think it got memorialized as October seventh and not necessarily as the Simchatora massacre or the you know Tevach Simchatura or the Milchemet Sinchhatura, you the war of Simchatura. why do you have any s like why do you think that is? I I know that actually early on member of Knesset Gilad Kariv, you know, tried to institute a bill in the Knesset that that that that said, you know, officially we call this the Simchatorah massacre. But I and I think that he wanted to, you know, have it go by the Jewish calendar and not necessarily by the Loazid, the Gregorian date of October seventh. But w help me understand that a little bit, you know, from your perspective. Orly Erez Likhovski: You know, I think I think colonic colonic in Israel in Hebrew, the massacre of Simchatuah it's right, it's an oxymoron because like how can Josh Weinberg: Mm-hmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: you talk about a massacre together with a holiday that right? Exactly. Josh Weinberg: The re rejoicing of the Torah, right? It's yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: About happiness and about yeah, rejoicing. So I think it's like it's it's I think it's very hard for Israelis Josh Weinberg: Mm. Orly Erez Likhovski: to make it sort of part of I mean obviously Yom Kippu is a day when you, you know, lament and you reflect and it's very different. So I think this putting them together feels very alien. Josh Weinberg: Mm. Orly Erez Likhovski: it's interesting. I I I haven't thought about what yeah, what you s right said about the Yom Kippur war. I think the yeah, the Yom Kippur was I mean the whole issue of you know the war was very connected, you know, with Saira in the middle of Yom Kippur and sort of became Yeah. Josh Weinberg: There's a surprise attack and yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: so I think yeah, I think it's different, but I think all of us keep, you know, reminding ourselves where were we, right? On October seventh on the Day of Simcha Tawa and to think about you know where we were and what had happened since I can tell you that I I think every year we have a dilemma how to celebrate Simcha Ta. Obviously, the year after October 7th, people didn't couldn't feel think about celebrating a year later, maybe a little bit so I think this year some congregations choose to celebrate and like I completely understand that. I felt that I needed something like you said, sort of a quiet celebration. So we went in my shoulder, just you know, sort of having haka fot, but there was sort of like quiet. So we danced to sort of quiet music, Josh Weinberg: Mm. Orly Erez Likhovski: which sort of made sense to me. And when we sort of opened the whole of the Torah scroll and finished, you know, the reading of the last Torah portion, Vizota Bracha. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: And then immediately going to Bereshi to Genesis, it was like for me something very deep because I felt I really need to put some things away and to start Josh Weinberg: Mm. Orly Erez Likhovski: you with like new energy. So for me it was like a really timely thing, and really the the ending of yeah. Josh Weinberg: That's a beautiful there's like a metaphor there. There's like that's like your drush almost that like that's you know, like and so can I ask you, like, can i is it possible to begin anew now or or is it still too early? Is it still too raw? Orly Erez Likhovski: So I think it's a good question, you know. I think for a long time we said we kept saying that the whole of Israeli society, and of course many Jews outside of Israel are not post-traumatic because we're still living the trauma. Now I think that, Josh Weinberg: Mm. Orly Erez Likhovski: you know, a year exactly a year ago, right, on on Sukkot, there was a Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: ceasefire and the hostages, all the living hostages came back. and that was really an exhilarating moment. But I think we are all still in that moment of trauma. Josh Weinberg: Mm. Orly Erez Likhovski: I think that as long as nobody was held accountable by the government, this we're still processing what has happened. I don't think we can feel a sense of closure. and I think that a lot of yeah, divisions in self society. Josh Weinberg: Just just just say a bit w more about what that means to be held accountable by the government because just just spell that out. Maybe some of our listeners are not necessarily aware but yeah yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, you know, I I I obviously we're talking about State Commission of Inquiry that has not been you know, set up by by the government. they actually try to push for a different you know, commission that would actually be, you know, they would have a say on how who would be part of it. But even that was not, you know, set up and really nobody actually investigated what has happened. I mean we keep seeing books and articles about the unbelievable failure, I mean, of so many people, right, within the military and the government, but there was no one investi deep investigation as should have been. And I think this is something that we carry with us. and that's like one thing. And I think the the other really Josh Weinberg: And just from Israeli history, those those investigations are fairly standard operating procedure after Yom Kippur War, after the you know, Lebanon war, even after there was a horrific killing of thirteen Israeli Arab citizens, you know, in in October of two thousand. State inquiry, official state inquiry, you know, like so Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, and and people and listeners have to understand that those State Commission of inquiry were in this you know set up very quickly, like a few weeks after those events, right? It didn't take years, it didn't take months, despite the fact that we're really traumatic events, right? I mean the Yom Kippur War was like a mega event, Josh Weinberg: Mm, mmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: right? People thought it's gonna be the end of the state of Israel. Within a few weeks, you know, a state commission of inquiry was, you know, started to debate, Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: started to deal with that. So that's like un Josh Weinberg: So so Orly Erez Likhovski: Believable. Josh Weinberg: can we break that down? Like why, in your opinion or your analysis, has there not been yet a state inquiry? Orly Erez Likhovski: Well, obviously, you know, I think the people in the government, obviously the Prime Minister and many, many others feel that they would need to be held accountable and they don't want to be held accountable for anything they have done. and you know, they don't want the truth to be investigated and, you know, brought brought to the Israeli public into the world. Josh Weinberg: Mm-hmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: and i i you know, if if they would thought they would have been, you know, okay, then they wouldn't have not have opposed this, right? So obviously they think they are Josh Weinberg: Yeah, Orly Erez Likhovski: Blame, Josh Weinberg: yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: despite the fact that they're trying, especially Netanyahu and many others, to, you know, you know, push the blame on on others, on the people who, you know, their predecessors and and so forth. So so I think and and we also should remind our listeners that basically all the top ranking army officials who were you know in office during on October 7th left the army, right? So they Josh Weinberg: Yeah, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: actually sort of paid the price in a sense, but nobody in the government other than the you defence minister who, you know, Netanyahu kicked out because, you know, he was not extreme enough for him. nobody was held accountable. So I think Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and I think Josh Weinberg: Or I think was was pushing back against him and giving him warnings, right? You know, Gallant. when I posed this question directly to the Speaker of the Knesset, Amir O'Hana, this was several months ago already, Orly Erez Likhovski: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Josh Weinberg: with the conference of presidents of major American Jewish organizations in New York. and it's a crowd that is often fairly sympathetic to the Netanyahu government and the state of Israel, Orly Erez Likhovski: Mm. Josh Weinberg: you know. And he said very clearly, and I appreciated his Honesty about it, you know, that ease of well, the Supreme Court are the people who appoint the members of the commission, and we think that the Supreme Court will be extremely political and partisan and and won't give us a fair shot. And I said, I said back to him, I said, Well, if you think you have nothing to hide, then you shouldn't worry about them being political or them being partisan, you know. and but that that's his answer is that even to allow politics into this is already just so telling of of the government and and who we're dealing with. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, you know, and the fact that now with the elections coming up, you know, those same people are running for office again. it's just unbelievable, right? And I think that so that's one thing. And I think the other huge issue is what happened with the hostages, right? The fact that you know the the you know a lot of people from the government now say, w they're boasting, you know, we brought back the hostages, which is okay, they didn't want to bring back the hostages, and of course not all the hostages came back, right? So forty one hostages were Killed or murdered when they were captive by Hamas in in Gaza, right? So and we see I think today I saw another article saying that of course we we could have brought you know had a hostage deal earlier and brought back hostages and would save their lives, right? those who were killed. So I think that's like a huge issue for a lot of people. again, reminding ourselves that the government did not care. about the hostages. It was not their priority. actually vice versa, right? They actually said we're gonna have a war forever, even if we have the to pay the price of the hostages. And that's like a very deep wound in Israeli society. The fact that they were willing to give up and that both the families of the hostages, Israelis and Jews all over the world have to put so much public pressure in order for this to happen, not because of the government, but despite of the government This is like a huge thing that trauma that, you know, can't be healed, right? I mean the people are in place and they're not saying we're sorry, like they don't care. So that's like a huge issue for Josh Weinberg: They're not saying they're sorry. They also I mean I I have like so many things to say on this, but like first of all, I I think I think that is incredibly important what you just said and really, really necessary for not only Israeli citizens who are going to the polls in three weeks, but also Jews abroad to really understand that that when we paraded around everywhere, you in the country, and I'm and I'm holding up the sign that that you made. you know, that saying clearly there is no Orly Erez Likhovski: Mm-hmm. Josh Weinberg: greater mitzvah, there's no greater commandment than the Orly Erez Likhovski: Mm, yeah. Josh Weinberg: redeeming of captives than P. Del Chuin. well it appears that that you know, by people who claim to observe mitzvah, y you know, to say they said, Well, sorry, there is a greater mitzvah, and my continuation in power is more important than redeeming the captives. So a few things. One, I just started reading this new book by Brett McGurk. Who is who was one of the national security advisors for Biden. He'd served four different presidents. and he was one of the lead negotiators before Trump got elected. So in 23-24, you know, he helped orchestrate the deal in in November. that brought home the first round of you know, a hundred hostages. And it was sort of unbelievable to listen to him tell that the war could have ended a year earlier. and that the hostages could have been brought home, including the lives of some of those forty one hostages who were killed, could Orly Erez Likhovski: And of course we should we should mention the lives of soldiers and of Palestinians, of course. Josh Weinberg: No, I mean I r right, right, right. R I absolutely. I mean h hundreds of soldiers we're talking about. These are like our our our kids, Orly Erez Likhovski: And and thousands of Palestinians, of course. Yeah, innocent Palestinians in Gaza. Josh Weinberg: Y y yes, y t it goes without it should it should not go without saying, it should be said a hundred percent. And so you know, so he deta details this. And he's very clear to say this is not a documented history of the events that happened. This is my story, my take on on things, you know, my my accounting. so so that's that's one thing. two, the failure to show up for the families, I think is just inexcusable like if you know I the Prime Minister should be going to every Shiva House and every bereaved family and every, you know, return hostage who is recuperating and deal with making amends. the third thing is and and this is what I'm I'm thinking about personally the most. Yeah, yeah, please, yeah, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, I just wanna say, refer to what you're saying that you know, Netanyahu is very big on actually you know, going and meeting people when it's convenient to him, right? for instance Josh Weinberg: Mm-hmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: we had terrible incident with right Josh Weinberg: It's gonna sit yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: with the plane last week, the the flight the near yeah. Right. And you know, it's really endangered Josh Weinberg: The near hijacking of flight one seven three from Fly Dubai, yes, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: the life, I think a hundred and eighty people on board. and Netanyahu was very quick to meet with one of the, you know Very brave Israeli passengers who, you know, Josh Weinberg: The heroes, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: one of the heroes. And you know, some family members of the hostages said, Well, he never came to meet us. I mean, w why isn't there for us, right? And obviously, they kept, you know, the government kept boasting, my god, those are heroes, but it was again like a huge failure. Of our Josh Weinberg: Mm. Orly Erez Likhovski: transportation minister who doesn't care about anything and she was also accused of corruption. It was her responsibility to make sure that this thing would not happen. She did not do it. But again, nobody is accountable, held accountable for anything. They just talk about as it is a success story, which is like it's like a huge failure. But it's sort of, you know, this Josh Weinberg: It's an unbelievable failure. And had he been able to either, you know, crash the plane into the airport or fly it into, you know, the Azraeli Towers in Tel Aviv or or something like that. And that and you know, and I'm thinking about that in terms of the social contract, is that you know, you as citizens or even we from abroad, don't think about how much goes into preventative pr preventing terrorism. preventing attacks. And then when that one, you know, thing gets through the lines or falls between the seats, it's an unbelievable tragedy. And still people aren't taking responsibility, aren't taking responsibility for it and saying, yeah, this is, you know, this could have been like by some miracle it was averted, really. and and great heroism, you know. but those things should have definitely been avoided. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, and and and you know, I say the resembles with October seventh and the fact that like the story being told is not the story that should be told, right? Which is how did it happen? How can we make sure it doesn't happen again? Nobody talks about this. Like when we're talking about the government, right? Same goes with the near airplane crash. Like, how would you prevent this from happening? How could if this have happened? Nobody, you know, actually has to Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Give us any report for why they did it. And by the way, we're not surprised because we keep saying that the government ministries, I think it's the same in the US. The ministers are completely incapable of taking care of their ministries. And actually, if they do anything, they just destroy everything that is under their responsibility, right? And we see it very clearly in the terrible state of transportation in Israel. And this was, you know, another example for that. And it's really over and over again we're seeing people who are really not incapable. We're seeing people who are incompetent Josh Weinberg: gross incompetence, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: in their jobs. And instead of paying a price for that, they are held as heroes and come to the Israeli voters and say, Well, vote for us again. Look how successful we were. Where you were like a complete failure. Why wouldn't you admit this? I think it goes back to the fact that we have sort of two groups of Israelis telling parallel stories of the reality, right? We're not talking about the same reality and it's very hard to bridge the differences between people seeing reality so differently. Josh Weinberg: You I'm thinking a lot about Israelis telling their stories. And you know, I I I looked up just now and I wrote a piece about it this last week, you know, thinking about all the books that are coming out after after October seventh. There have been hundreds and hundreds of books in general coming out. and some of them I've been trying to read and some of them I'm like, I I just can't anymore. You know, I just started to read Amus Harel's latest book about you know, called it's called Six Twenty Nine. 629 a.m. and so so many others. And thinking about ser you know, significant stories coming out by the hostages and those who survived and made it back. And some have taken a very public light, like like Ali Sharabi, whose 2025 book Hostage was very informative and and and sort of went viral. and he's I think I think correct me if I'm wrong, he is leading the state ceremony. The the non-state ceremony, you know, the unofficial ceremony, the alternative ceremony, right, right. We're talking about and and then other people Orly Erez Likhovski: The the alternative. The alternative sermon. Yeah, we'll we'll t we'll talk soon about how Israelis remember this. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: like, you know, Alon Ohel, who has, you know, been performing publicly and and and others, and e even our own close friend Aviva Siegel put out a book called called The Main Thing Is to Wake Up to a New Morning. what what do we understand about, you know, what's going on with Orly Erez Likhovski: It's Josh Weinberg: the let's call them the hostage community, shall we say, and those who have survived, and those who came back. And how did they get their life back again? I mean, let's just add to the fact that they they were quasi celebrities. I mean, you know, their posters were hanging all over everywhere. I once heard, you know, groups of kids saying, who's your favorite hostage? Who's your favorite? You know, like like almost like like we used to trade baseball cards. Like they were you know, looking at the Haji, like they knew their entire stories, their names, and then when they came back it was this euphoric experience. But now, you know, people moved on. Do you see them taking sort of different roles in in public life at all? Orly Erez Likhovski: You know, it's a good it's a good question. I think each one really has a different story. I think we see a variety of opinions. We've saw some hostages who are who identify with the government talk quite critically about some, you know, organizations who protested for their release and saying, you know, we don't agree with you, you should not have, you know, protest on our behalf and it was really Josh Weinberg: Wow. Orly Erez Likhovski: hard to to hear that. I think we don't know, the you know we don't know in details the struggles that the families are going through. I just saw that there is a new Josh Weinberg: Mm-hmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: podcast that I haven't heard yet about the wives of Sagidekilchen, so Avital's Josh Weinberg: sure. Orly Erez Likhovski: wife and Lishai, the wife from Rimiran, who speak about yeah, Josh Weinberg: The the same Iran, yeah, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: how about how it is to actually build your life back. And obviously it's not like a miracle. It it's very, very challenging. I have to still say Josh Weinberg: Yeah, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: but but I'm sure it is. So I think it's you know, we sort of the first high and exhilaration after the the hostages came back was amazing, but after that there was this, you know, reality of how they adjust back to reality. I remember hearing that the hostages said, Josh Weinberg: Kids reactant, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: What what is this like AI and Chat GPT that everybody's talking about? Because they have never heard of it, right? And it's just amazing that like came back to a different world. I think like that's a very har very hard work for them and their families to, you know, go back on track and each one obviously has hero his or or her own story and definitely writing what they've gone through is I think is like a therapeutic experience which is important for them and for us, right? To understand what they have gone through. But I want to talk a little bit about how both Israelis and you know people in North America, Jews in North America commemorate October seventh. Because I think every year we th sort of have, you know, additional thoughts on what's the right thing. And obviously there is no right one right thing. We should mention that the government decided that the official memorial day would be actually today, which is two days after Simchatua. Okay, so Kafdaleti Shrei. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: Twenty fourth of Tishre, right. Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: And they usually have like a formal ceremony, but I think most people don't care about it because you know I feel like completely alienated from anything this government is doing. I mean, the government that deserted the hostages is now, you know, talking about October seventh and We have also to remind our listeners the government that after October seventh was completely completely failed to address the needs of Israelis, right? Like the government completely disappeared after October seventh for weeks and weeks. So we we remember Josh Weinberg: Mm. Orly Erez Likhovski: that and we should remember that. And I think like for me, October seventh is is about two things, three things actually. It's about remembering what happened, right? The terrible massacre. All the terrible things that have happened, some of which are still very hard to you know grapple with. The other thing is not to forgive. So remember not to forgive to those who should be held responsible and have not been held responsible. And the other thing is not to give in to the sentiment and narrative of complete darkness or you know revenge or hate, but to continue to. Talk about the light, about spreading the light, about peace, about trying to bring about a different future. and z those three things are, you know, it's not easy to do all those three. I think Josh Weinberg: No, really? Orly Erez Likhovski: that at least some of them are being represented in the alternative ceremony, which is held every year on October seventh. And it's you know it's Josh Weinberg: D you wanna just say a word about that just so that we understand what that is and then we'll I I wanna Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, so this is it's you know organized by by an organization called Kumu, by one of one of her brothers of the of one of the hostages that was Jonathan Shimli's, that his brother was tragically tragically mistakenly killed by the IDF. And this ceremony attracts I think thousands of Israelis on cornpalk and many, many Josh Weinberg: No Orly Erez Likhovski: others watch, you know, on you know live stream. and I think this really tries to bring together as many Israelis as possible in remembering, in saying that this should not happen. I mean it's not like really I mean it is political to some extent. but really talking about it always gives place to the the you know victims that are non-Jewish, right? Arab or you know, Bedouins, Druze, talking about the fact that we should be together, that we should care for one another, talking about mutual responsibility. Al Vuta Dadid, so it's I think it's a beautiful ceremony in the sense that it talks about the sadness, but also about like sort of the positive values that we've seen after October seventh Israeli society. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, I think I think that's really wonderful. And I think that we many American Jews also, or many diaspora Jews, also learned a lesson in watching the resilience of Israeli civil society in being able to just in a second mobilize. Now, it it is important to mention that of Israeli society was mobilized prior to October seventh because of the protests in favor of Israeli democracy. and the you know all the WhatsApp groups and what we put together call you know, in Hebrew they're called the Kamalim or the the war rooms which you know which is spun into existence or or which sprung into existence and was able to collect materials and y you know work with each other for all those who were in need and to help with the displaced people and and and all of that. I don't think we necessarily have that muscle. Now American Jews did also mobilized in a major way, first in terms of funding. I mean, the the American Jewish community, the North American Jewish community raised close to a billion dollars, actually, Orly Erez Likhovski: Amazing. Josh Weinberg: just just in the official ways. And then every army unit was like having its own bake sale basically. You know, like how many messages I got from, my brother needs helmets, my my cousin needs gloves, you know, my cousin you know, everyone else needs different kind of equipment. Can you, you know Bring it over with you and can you do I mean it's a it it's sort of like this will go down in the annals of history as like a major, major moment. Orly Erez Likhovski: And but I think Josh, it's not only you know, like financial support. I remember you came with the you know, mission of the URJ very close after Josh Weinberg: Yeah, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: October seventh and you kept coming along many other people on missions on the first month after October seventh. And I kept telling you and all the missions that I met that it's I really thank you for coming because it means a lot to us that at this moment you choose to come. you know, to like a war zone and be with us. And I think that right after October seventh it seems to me that the f feeling of being, you know, the same people was really strong. And I think a lot of Israelis felt very close to diaspora Jews in a sense that they have not felt before. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, a absolutely. I remember as in the days before I was going, my wife sort of asked me, She's like, Why w why why are you going now? Like like what what are you gonna put on your uniform and fight? Like I actually donated my uniform and boots and it went, you know, to someone who actually could use it. and you know, I w I was in the spokesperson's unit, you know, whatever. and she's like, And are you gonna take the place in a bomb shelter of someone who might need it or a hotel room of a displaced person? And and I said, Look At the end of the day, I'm going to do two things. I'm going to to to give a hug and I'm going to pay shiva calls. And I'm going to do what we call in Hebrew the Vuyuchani, like a like like visiting sick people who are experiencing trauma and to be there. and those, you know, our tradition even tells us that those are obligations beyond, you know, a different Sha and Sheo. Like those are, you things. So I said like like I'm not a hero. I'm just going Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: because our people are in need right now. And that's and it's that. And I'm thinking about that three years later and trying to get people to come to Israel and trying to get people to, you know, see it as something that they get back in the habit of of doing right now. And I think I think we're not quite there yet. you know, in terms of the American Jewish community. And there are people who have gone, you know, like they're commuting basically. Like they've gone every few months, been there or done volunteer programs and just, you know, come to visit and to see how Is Israeli society has changed. And I think everyone else is sort of struggling, you know. I I don't think and here's where I think we do see things somewhat differently. for many in our movement, the experience of what happened to Palestinians in Gaza has has also been deeply jarring. And and to see that and to sometimes hear from Israelis who are liberal, you know, and to say, you don't talk to me about Palestinians. I can't talk about peace right now. And I I myself am conflicted with that. You know, just i in a very open and raw way. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: When I look at the out you know, when I look at the layout of who our neighbors are right now, I I don't see the Palestinian people accepting a Jewish state living in Israel. And and with that, I don't see us acting in the way that I think we should be acting. You know, I'll put it I'll put it very bluntly and and simply, you know, to simplify it. And so that's that's really difficult. That's really difficult. I still see Hamas. Yeah. What what do you think? Yeah tell me. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah. No, I you know I think that I think that right after October seventh, I don't remember if we have discussed this before. I think Israelis were in such deep trauma that it was very hard to see the pain of others. and I think I told you that for me it took a few weeks. because I felt so deep in my sorrow. it took me a few weeks until I could see the pain of others. for a lot of Israelis it took them months and years. I do think now we are in a different situation. I mean, obviously it's not like right after October seventh. I think people are more rational in their attitude in the sense that it's not that they can't, you know, think about it, they don't want to think about it. And I think part of it is because it's not at all part of the political discourse now leading to the elections. So nobody talks about, you know, the future of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It's just a non issue and that's I think tragic and unbelievable. But in Israel, obviously, you know, the government side does not talk about it. I think the government side does not want to talk about this because obviously they're not in favor of any, you know, solution to the conflict. And the opposition side does not want talk about this because it's you know, they're trying to attract sort of soft right wing voters so they don't want to talk about this at all because it's considered, you know, not very popular to talk about peace or, you know, solution to the conflict. So this is why it's an on issue. And I think that's obviously tragic. And I think the fact that you don't have a vision of, you know, a situation where we don't have to be in an ongoing and constant war is is really terrible and should definitely be changed. it's Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: and I think it's terrible that people don't talk at all about casualties in Gaza, which by the way continue to you know, happen. not talking about the West Bank, settler violence. So this is something that is it's very concerning. I think the whole issue of Arab Jewish relationship with betwe you know within Israel is also very very sensitive issues leading up to the elections. We should mention that we had a whole issue of disqualifying one of the Arab candidates in the joint Arab list. who was accused of publishing an an article on october eighth which did not condemn the massacre of october seventh. I think this article Josh Weinberg: Yeah, I mean I he wasn't just accuser, he he he did publish, you know, that article yeah and Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, no, no. Yeah, he published he was yeah, that's why they asked to disqualify him. and I think that Josh Weinberg: And and it was pretty I I I read some of the parts of it that were translated and I I have to say, I mean, it's a it's a big question of whether he should be disqualified or whether that should just be disclosed and let the electorate decide. But it it was pretty jarring to hear that from a member of Knesset, his name is Samy Abushada, but you know, for the listeners and I Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: I i i i it was deeply concerning and you know whether he did chuva or not from that. I mean, what how does how do you s Orly Erez Likhovski: So, you know, it w it would I th Josh Weinberg: How should we see that? Orly Erez Likhovski: I I think obviously the article is very concerning and infuriating, but there is no legal basis for his disqualification over one article. So this is like a consistent series of l Supreme Court cases stating that. And I should mention that when we disqualified racist candidates in twenty nineteen, we brought twenty, Josh Weinberg: Mm-hmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: thirty, forty expressions that justified disqualifying. Okay, so this is something that had no legal basis. Nevertheless, there was huge support among the political parties, including opposition parties, for his disqualification, including the attorney general. and this is why the su Josh Weinberg: Yeah, and and the democratic meant yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: yeah, the Supreme Court felt that they had to disqualify him, but since there wasn't a strong legal basis, they just suggested that he withdraw his candidacy, which he did. And I think the feeling now Josh Weinberg: Well she then did, right? Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: is that you have this case and then you have a case of you know, dozens of coalition members who repeatedly incite to racism and violence and they don't, you know, pay any price for that. Josh Weinberg: and call for mass ethnic cleansing. I mean that you you know, that that that Orly Erez Likhovski: In Gaza, right. Josh Weinberg: r right. So I I think I mean I think that's the other critical point here is that we're saying, Okay, if you're gonna disqualify him on on that basis, then the same standards should be applied, or same criteria should be applied to those who called for turning Gaza into a parking lot and Orly Erez Likhovski: Right, right. So yeah, so yeah, so yeah, it's a f it's a fit yeah. It's a filling of double standard and it remains to be seen how it's going to affect especially the Arab electorate. And that's like a hugely critical component in the upcoming elections, which are going to be decided according to the percenta the voting the voting rate and how you know how what what is gonna be the size of the threshold, right? how many votes you need to actually pr pass the threshold. exactly. Josh Weinberg: To to cross the electoral threshold. Yeah. What do you think is gonna happen? Do you think this is gonna motivate more of the Arab or the Palestinian Israeli community to come out and vote? Orly Erez Likhovski: So it's it's it's a big question. It could go either way. I know there are a lot of efforts to increase voter turnout with the Palestinian citizens of Israel. I do hope that, you know, they go out and vote in in large numbers despite a lot of disappointments, because it's clear that, you know, you know, what's at stake now is like huge. so you know, obviously we are working in general to increase voter participation and I I really hope This is going to, you know, we're going to see a a huge voter turnout, because it's very critical. But, you know, and and I think the fact that, you know, we kept people kept saying, well, the elections are going to be on on October 27th and it's going to remind people of October seventh. Unfortunately, despite the fact that obviously it's being talked about this week because of the commemoration, I don't think that's going to be like a huge issue because people that support the government. They they don't talk about this. It does not seem to meet you know, to matter to them as much. and Josh Weinberg: Yeah. And even the reports coming out of the direct warnings from different leaders in the Arab world, whether it's MBZ or it's you Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: know, the intelligence leader of Egypt, you know, coming to warn Netanyahu pretty directly that something was going to happen. And then he of course said, no, that's you know, the why the the timing of this is just many you know, meaning to tr try and detract people from voting for me. which is I mean, I mean, do you think that will have a an effect in this. Orly Erez Likhovski: No, I I I I don't think that's really going to, you know, matter very much. I think not a lot of people are gonna switch sides, you know, between the different blocks. it's really a matter Josh Weinberg: Uh-huh, uh-huh. Orly Erez Likhovski: of how many people are going to go and vote. and, you know, s it could really i it it doesn't seem to you know, I we're not going to see like a landslide victory for neither block, right? So it's gonna be a close call. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, could end up in a stalemate. And and we'll do our own an elections analysis here. I mean, this is really we're talking about October seventh and how we commemorate and i if I can I I just wanna say something about, you know, North American Jewish the Jewish community here. and that you know, life I think has changed demonstrably since October seventh. And I was thinking, you know, as I was thinking about Simchatura this year, it brought me back to a moment of Simplatora in 2023 and on October 7th, where our community celebrates about 20 different communities together in a very public plaza in Grand Army Plaza in Brooklyn. And we quickly reconstituted the celebration to be a vigil in which different people spoke and we, you know, sang moving songs and offered prayers. And a lot of people came out just to be together. And as I was standing there in the middle and I got up on the the the podium, you know, the the makeshift bima to to to to say a few words, I saw three groups. I saw the main group coming together. Some people were just shocked. Some people hadn't quite figured out what was happening and some people were like, okay, it still seemed Khatora, you know, we'll figure that out later. And the far end of the plaza was a group of far left progressive Jews who had planned a protest in front of Senator Chuck Schumer's house, which is adjacent to the plaza, to protest against the sale of arms or the you know foreign military support for Israel. Okay. And at as they were marching over chanting towards the senator's residence, another group of Haredi Jews were running by chanting Mavitla Arafin. In Hebrew, gentlemen, death to Arabs in in Hebrew. Okay. And that scene has stuck with me as sort of a microcosm of the North American Jewish community as as it goes forward. And I said, okay, I have to reject, you know, no to this and no to that as well to both. And here we are in the middle of, you know, trying to build up our community. And look, many people Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah and it Josh Weinberg: have come out. We've talked a lot about the October 8th Jew, and people have come out of the woodwork. and change. And I think people are really still struggling to find that what I call the Zionist middle, you know, to say, like, yes. Yeah. Right, right, Orly Erez Likhovski: And and and a new a nuanced position, right? Nuance. Josh Weinberg: right, an absolutely nuanced position to say, like, okay, Israel still needs their support. We believe deeply in the state of Israel, and we believe deeply in Israeli people, right? In Israeli civil society. And and we're upset at how its government is both failing to take responsibility. And about how it conducted the war, okay, without being, you know, armchair generals, but saying, look, look, you know, seventy-three thousand Palestinians have killed, have been killed, and Hamas is still operating and you know, all all you know, some of those basic things. and trying not to adhere to those who have given up on Israel or to see Israel as the evil, you know, in this story, as the evil character in this in this story. And those who say, like, see, okay, you know. mm making you know horrible racist comments about Arabs a as well. and so three years later I I th I think that's that's still our job. That's how we're trying to memorialize this. In also trying to not overplay our victimhood, even though I we were victims of this, and trying not to see us as victimizers as well. And it's really hard. I just want to say that it's it's not it's not simple. that's what we're doing now. Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, and I and I wanna no, I I completely agree from Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: afar. I I wanna go back to Simcha Torah because I think that when I looked at this Torah stroll open, I Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: thought about what you know could be done on behalf of Torah, on behalf of Judaism, Josh Weinberg: Mm. Orly Erez Likhovski: and about our responsibility three years later to you know raise the voice of a Torah of peace, a Torah that calls Josh Weinberg: Mm. Orly Erez Likhovski: for life, celebrates life. a Torres that spreads the light and believes in you know in a future of inclusion and compassion. And I think this has just become more important over the years, I think in both our countries. and as you said, I think this nuanced position and complex position is harder maybe to present, but it's it's more important to do so these days. and I wanna maybe end by reading you probably know the isko that Varina Levanon, who is a rabbinical student, Josh Weinberg: Yes. Orly Erez Likhovski: wrote, which is really, really beautiful. it's called Remember. We remember our brothers and sisters, the loyal and faithful, the brave and courageous, whom we lost amidst the horrors of war. We remember the shining eyes. The warm embrace, the confident heart, the photo albums, the life stories, the homes built with great effort and burned in an instant. We remember the loving families, the beauty, the hope, the eyes that look upon us with trust. May the souls of those who have left us be bound up in the bond of life, and their memory be connected to us by a thin thread of life, like a bouquet of wildflowers and rainwater, squills. Golden puddles, almond trees, oleanders and mulberries, laughter carried on the flight of swings, a beating heart, tenderness and compassion. May our souls be connected to theirs in deep memory and gratitude, and may we choose life. We remember and we choose life, in the gentle hand extended, in the thin ray of dawn, in the sprouting stem, in the breath of the earth. Yeah, yeah, I think really choosing life Josh Weinberg: Amen. Orly Erez Likhovski: is sort of the bahim. Yeah, this is what we Josh Weinberg: Yeah, I'm in. Orly, thank you and thank you for this this conversation was helpful to me as well. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, same. Josh Weinberg: And you know, I I just want to wish for healing and for the ability to begin anew, with all of the trauma and with all of the pain that we are carrying. and to the ability to look towards a new day and bring about that kind of change that that we can on on both sides of the ocean. Orly Erez Likhovski: Amen. Yeah, so conversations like this are exactly why we started this podcast. This podcast exists because we believe Israel can be better for all who live here and for all who care about it from afar. But that takes honest conversation and it takes partnership. So if these conversations are important to you, please share this episode and help us keep the conversation going. Josh Weinberg: To stay up to date, subscribe on YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you'd like to help us grow, please make an engaging post on social media and leave a five star review. Maybe something like this this episode of the Pluralist Podcast was so helpful to me in processing my own thoughts and feelings and giving language and expression to exactly the kinds of things that I was thinking about. You know, you don't have to use that verbatim, but You know, something like that would be helpful and send this episode to someone who should be part of this conversation and feel free to sponsor an episode. A great way to mark a birthday, anniversary, or even at this somber and sad moment of October seventh. we need your help and need your support. So thank you so much. Orly Erez Likhovski: Thank you, bye bye.