Latest / The Photography & Video Show Podcast / 24: Hannah Couzens on personal connection in portraits; Sony RX1R III full-frame compact camera breaks cover; in-person show returns to Birmingham in 2026

Transcript

24: Hannah Couzens on personal connection in portraits; Sony RX1R III full-frame compact camera breaks cover; in-person show returns to Birmingham in 2026 · The Photography & Video Show Podcast

0:09
David McClelland: Hello and welcome to the photography and video show Podcast.
0:14
David McClelland: It is August 2025.
0:16
David McClelland: I'm David McClelland and we are back for another series of developing camera news and insights from professionals right on the front line of photography and filmmaking.
0:26
David McClelland: Coming up in this month's show.
0:30
SPEAKER_02: My job is to connect with a person.
0:32
SPEAKER_02: Someone, when I was first starting out when I was 16 and did my work experience, he told me that portraiture was 80% personality and 20% skill.
0:41
SPEAKER_02: And I thought that was really off.
0:43
SPEAKER_02: But as time has gone on, I understand what he means.
0:47
David McClelland: Is AI playing part of your workflow?
0:50
SPEAKER_02: I had concerns about where it was going.
0:52
SPEAKER_02: I didn't want to upload it somewhere.
0:54
SPEAKER_02: These are pictures of people, people's families, and having found some software that can edit in a more almost realistic and better and faster way than I probably could in the first place.
1:07
SPEAKER_02: What?
1:09
SPEAKER_02: Yes, David, this is okay.
1:13
David McClelland: Portrait photographer Hannah Cousins joins us later on.
1:17
David McClelland: But first, helping navigators on this month's news cruise, it is none other than editor-in-chief at Digital Camera World, James Arteas.
1:26
David McClelland: Hello, James.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: Hello, David.
1:28
SPEAKER_00: It's good to be on a news cruise rather than a booze cruise, but we know we take what we can get in this world.
1:32
David McClelland: Gosh, I think booze cruise, we're showing our age when we're talking about booze cruises there.
1:36
David McClelland: I think that kind of stopped a very long time ago, maybe.
1:39
David McClelland: Uh, how the devil are you?
1:41
David McClelland: It's been such a long time.
1:42
SPEAKER_00: It has.
1:42
SPEAKER_00: What were we saying?
1:43
SPEAKER_00: It's been it's been a good, it's a good six months or so, hasn't we last talked about?
1:47
SPEAKER_00: Something like that, yeah.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I'm doing very, very well.
1:49
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, lots and lots has happened in the world of imaging and pictures and video and stuff since then.
1:55
SPEAKER_00: So very much kept on our toes at digital camera world.
1:57
SPEAKER_00: Um, and uh genuinely, genuinely looking forward to speaking to you and catching up on the highlights of what's been happening recently.
2:05
David McClelland: And eagle-eyed, eagle-eared listeners may have noticed that since we last spoke, you have a slightly different job title.
2:13
David McClelland: Editor in chief there.
2:14
David McClelland: Let me be probably the 50th person to congratulate you on whatever that means.
2:20
David McClelland: Um, if that means you have more fun, get some more time with with with cameras and chatting about this sort of stuff, then it it's all a good, all all, all a good thing.
2:30
SPEAKER_00: It means more spreadsheets, in all honesty, David, but you know.
2:33
SPEAKER_00: We take the rough with the smooth.
2:34
SPEAKER_00: I've uh fair enough, fair enough.
2:36
David McClelland: Now I have to I have to apologize because today I'm feeling a little bit seasick.
2:41
David McClelland: Uh I these glasses, uh, for those of you who are watching, these glasses are new glasses.
2:46
David McClelland: I've reached a certain uh maturity, shall we say, where I need to have some special glasses specifically for um for VDU.
2:57
David McClelland: They they still call it VDU for display work.
3:02
David McClelland: Um the glasses that I used to have, actually, I I wonder if there's something here.
3:06
David McClelland: So I do need some eye correction.
3:08
David McClelland: I spend a lot of time with a camera on my shoulder, so I need to have very, very short distance, you know.
3:14
David McClelland: I need to be able to see stuff up close.
3:15
David McClelland: And as much as there's a diapeter, you know, what I've got my viewfinder on all the rest of that, I still need to be able to see up close, but I also need to be able to see far, far, far in the distance.
3:25
David McClelland: I was really struggling with that refocusing from very short to very far constantly all day long, and my eyes were struggling as well.
3:32
David McClelland: So a couple of years ago, I went to my opticians and I got some very focal lenses that would enable me if I kind of look down, yeah, okay.
3:44
David McClelland: When I look down at the bottom half of my lenses, I can see really, really close.
3:48
David McClelland: But when I look at the top of my lenses and kind of tilt my head down, and there's a funny cool sort of nodding thing that very focal people have in common, uh, I can see far, far in the distance.
3:59
David McClelland: And that really, really worked for having camera on shoulder.
4:03
David McClelland: But it did mean that when I'm set sitting at a screen and I've got you know screens in front of me, I'm editing or whatever, I'm kind of having to lean my neck back because my when I've got my screens at sort of eye height, yeah, my focal point is set for the distance, you know, set for many, many meters away.
4:22
David McClelland: So I'm having to lean back in order to see quite close, which clearly is a bad thing.
4:27
David McClelland: So they recommended I get these glasses, which are specifically screen glasses.
4:32
David McClelland: And oh boy, I put I got them yesterday morning.
4:35
David McClelland: I felt about 12 foot tall.
4:37
David McClelland: I'm sitting at a desk, I feel as though the desk is slanting towards me.
4:41
David McClelland: There's this kind of uh I don't know if you used to call it the tombstone effect, but the bottom of everything seems much wider than the top.
4:48
David McClelland: And I'm like holding my phone.
4:49
David McClelland: I have my laptop out uh this morning, and the screen of the laptop just kind of went wider as as it got to the bottom, and that's really, really difficult.
4:59
David McClelland: When you're trying to design stuff, and you know, when you're trying to look at how things look and compose stuff, if everything's sort of out of kilter a little bit, then it's really weird.
5:07
David McClelland: So I'm kind of hoping that my that my brain does some kind of auto-correction over the next few days.
5:13
David McClelland: Otherwise, these glasses, they're going back.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: You know what?
5:16
SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is this is adjacently related.
5:18
SPEAKER_00: So, Nikon, who people may or may not know, make glasses for spectacles.
5:23
SPEAKER_00: And um, I think my last glasses were Nikon glasses, technically.
5:26
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, in Japan, when they launched the Nikon Z mirrorless system, they also launched a new optical eyeglasses technology that was also called Z, Z, Z spectacles, Z glasses, whatever.
5:38
SPEAKER_00: I don't think they've made it outside Japan, but for folks such as yourself and such as myself who need something resembling verifocals, the area of focus is like a circle of equal there's some sort of cleverness that reduces the eye strain and improves um viewpoints when you look anywhere around the sort of slightly spherical nature of glasses.
5:57
SPEAKER_00: I couldn't tell you anything more than that.
5:59
SPEAKER_00: I wrote a news story about it about two or three years ago.
6:02
SPEAKER_00: Um, it may be worth looking at in case that sort of technology exists from other brands who exist outside Japan.
6:08
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it's it's a thing that you tend to forget.
6:11
SPEAKER_00: These optics companies who once upon a time started off life making microscopes or endoscopes or all sorts of other things, um, also make cameras.
6:18
SPEAKER_00: Oh, who knew?
6:19
SPEAKER_00: Nikon makes glasses, Zeiss makes glasses, these other people you think, wow, there's it's all connected, it's like Kevin Bacon.
6:25
David McClelland: Yes, indeed.
6:26
David McClelland: Yes.
6:26
David McClelland: Uh these lenses I think are Seiko lenses, I think.
6:31
David McClelland: Uh anyway, so uh watch this space as to whether I'm wearing these glasses next month or not, whether I've handed these back.
6:36
David McClelland: But I will still have my old glasses when I am having to do the long distance, short distance thing.
6:42
David McClelland: But hey, it's all a all a learning journey.
6:45
David McClelland: Um anyway, should we uh should we have a look at this month's uh this month's news?
6:50
David McClelland: Uh let's do it.
6:52
David McClelland: Yeah, so well, the big thing I think that's certainly been landing very, very heavily on the camera sphere, if we can call it that, is a new thing that Sony's brought out, which has only been what nine years in the making.
7:07
David McClelland: Uh tell me a little bit about the RX1R Mark III.
7:12
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's a big thing, in fact, it's a very, very small thing.
7:15
SPEAKER_00: Would you like to see how small it is, David?
7:17
SPEAKER_00: Because I do have I do have in my my magic photographer's box a Sony RX1R3R.
7:25
SPEAKER_00: Aww, isn't it cute?
7:27
SPEAKER_00: It's a thing of beauty, it is absolutely tiny.
7:29
SPEAKER_00: So bearing in mind, this is a full frame 60 megapixel camera.
7:34
SPEAKER_00: It's um it's it's a comp it's a full-frame compact camera, so in the same vein but different, things like the Fuji X106.
7:41
SPEAKER_00: Um fixed integrated lens, 35mm F2 Zeiss lens.
7:45
SPEAKER_00: This lens is the same as the camera's predecessor, so almost a decade-old, which um it's a great lens.
7:55
SPEAKER_00: It was then it is now.
7:56
SPEAKER_00: I think the only difference now is that maybe it doesn't quite have the resolving power around the full image circle, because of course now we're going from uh to a 60 megapixel sensor, 61 megapixel sensor, so it's got to resolve a little bit more detail.
8:08
SPEAKER_00: It's still a great lens.
8:09
SPEAKER_00: I love the fact that it's got, you know, it's got a proper clicky aperture dial.
8:13
SPEAKER_00: Um it's got you can turn it into macro mode, which is a bit of a a little bit of a pain.
8:18
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's 0.3 to infinity or 0.2 meters to 0.35 meters.
8:22
SPEAKER_00: So it's sort of in that middle distance where you might be taking just a regular environmental close-up of something or trying to take a photograph of a a flower, and you have to turn the lens into macro mode either way.
8:33
SPEAKER_00: So that's a little bit jiggery-puggery.
8:35
SPEAKER_00: But the point is, so it's been about a decade in the making, and I think certainly camera lovers, camera enthusiasts, camera people have been begging and begging and begging for this camera or a successor to the RX1R2.
8:47
SPEAKER_00: Because, as everybody knows, compact cameras have taken off like wildfire, thanks largely to the Fujifilm X100 series, um, which is a bit of a strange place to be because the manufacturers kind of forgot that people like these cameras.
9:00
SPEAKER_00: You know, they were overtaken by smartphones for a lot of years and they kind of stopped making them, really.
9:04
SPEAKER_00: Um, and we were then, come on, Sony, all you've got to do is put a new sensor in it and bring it back.
9:09
SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of literally what this is.
9:11
SPEAKER_00: It's the same camera, different body design.
9:13
SPEAKER_00: It no longer has the pop-up EVF that the old one did.
9:15
SPEAKER_00: Now this is a full-time fixed EVF in the corner, which you either love or you hate.
9:20
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think it's great.
9:21
SPEAKER_00: But it's nice to have one, frankly.
9:24
SPEAKER_00: It's nice to have one.
9:25
SPEAKER_00: I think this is the thing with a lot of compacts these days, and probably more on the more affordable end, where you think or the the wisdom might be that an EVF is disposable because we're looking at the sort of maybe the more smartphone-y generation who actually, even if they have an EVF, they're so used to shooting off the back screen that they may not actually use the EVF.
9:42
SPEAKER_00: So to have one is brilliant.
9:43
SPEAKER_00: It's a lovely good quality one as well.
9:45
SPEAKER_00: But just for just for size reference, David, because it's really hard to see, it looks small in my hands, but this is another full frame camera that is a small full frame camera but not a compact.
9:57
SPEAKER_00: So this is the Sigma BS.
9:59
David McClelland: I recognize that.
10:00
David McClelland: I had a very beautiful chat with Sam Smith from Sigma uh at the photography show back in March, and it's it's a thing of beauty, that for sure.
10:12
David McClelland: But to see that next door to the R1R3 is really interesting.
10:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so you can see just how small the RX1R3 really is, because this is a full frame camera with a full frame sensor and a 35mm lens.
10:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
10:28
SPEAKER_00: Full frame camera, full frame sensor, 35mm lens.
10:30
SPEAKER_00: You can see the size difference is pretty pronounced.
10:33
David McClelland: It feels so people who are listening rather than watching, uh, I would say there's about maybe 20% smaller.
10:41
David McClelland: The lens is certainly much, much smaller on the Sony.
10:46
David McClelland: Um, and yes, you've got the kind of black body versus the silver body option you've got there of the Sigma BF.
10:52
David McClelland: But there is a notable difference between the two.
10:55
David McClelland: Is the weight kind of similar as well?
10:57
David McClelland: Because one of my concerns when I see that camera in your hand, the Sony in your hand, is that yes, it's full frame, yes, it's incredibly powerful, 60 megapixel, all the rest of that.
11:08
David McClelland: Does it feel like a toy, or does it still have the pleasing heft that goes with the we'll come on to the price in a moment, but with quite a hefty price price tag too?
11:17
SPEAKER_00: So this is interesting because I think it feels quite premium.
11:21
SPEAKER_00: It's got a lovely matte finish, it feels solid in the hand, it's metal construction, so it feels substantial, feels sturdy, feels what I would say a premium product.
11:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
11:31
SPEAKER_00: One of my colleagues saw it the other day and thought it felt cheap, which is a really interesting thing because that wouldn't be.
11:38
SPEAKER_00: You can look at maybe some of the maybe like Canon power shot kind of compact cameras, but they're not cheap cameras, they don't feel cheap and nasty, but they're made of sort of, you know, plastic or sort of polycarbonate kind of materials, and they they just don't feel as robust and premium as this does.
11:54
SPEAKER_00: So it was interesting when my colleague said, Oh, feels a bit cheap, because that is not my read on this camera at all.
11:59
SPEAKER_00: Whether it feels up to its price tag may be another conversation, but it doesn't feel like a toy, it certainly doesn't perform like a toy.
12:05
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's got really, really cutting edge AF.
12:07
SPEAKER_00: I think it's got the same AF system as the sort of flagship alpha cameras of the H7Rs and such forth.
12:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, what I found really good, even though the the macro sort of switch is a little bit fiddly, um I put it into macro mode yesterday.
12:20
SPEAKER_00: I was in town at a community garden in Wiltshire, put it into macro mode, put it onto the sort of fast burst mode that it's got, and it's got Insect AF, which is you know, not all manufacturers have insect AF, so I thought, oh, I'm gonna try and photograph these bumblebees and these honeybees flying around.
12:34
SPEAKER_00: And it's pretty good.
12:35
SPEAKER_00: I mean it's if if you're it that's a notoriously challenging thing to photograph if you're a macro photographer, trying to get bees in flight or bees sitting comfortably.
12:42
SPEAKER_00: Um so just a sort of macro photography machine, it worked really, really well.
12:46
SPEAKER_00: Um, Grey Street photography machine as well, you know, 35mm lens F2, nice and fast.
12:50
SPEAKER_00: Uh, like I say, got a got the clicky aperture wheel, which is great.
12:54
SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, and a really, really powerful machine.
12:57
SPEAKER_00: 35mm isn't my favourite focal length, but it is nonetheless a lot of people's favourite focal lengths.
13:02
SPEAKER_00: And as I'm sure we're gonna come on to, there are some alternatives to this camera that also have a fixed 35mm lens.
13:10
David McClelland: Well, what I want to come on to next with this camera first, though, is that it's a 61 megapixel sensor, which is massive, of course, particularly for it's it's it's a lot of megapixel for a small camera.
13:23
David McClelland: But you mentioned that 35mm lens there.
13:27
David McClelland: I understand that there are some kind of cropping options that give you an effective, as well as 35, effective 50, and effective 70mm options as well.
13:36
David McClelland: So you've kind of got three in one, Sony might say.
13:39
David McClelland: I don't know what that works in practice, but yeah, you do.
13:43
SPEAKER_00: So it's it's again, this is a this is a tactic, tactic, technique, mode, feature, however you like to dress it up or not, that was, I think, sort of spearheaded by Leica when they were using the the 61 megapixel sensor in their compact camera.
13:55
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, the idea being 35mm isn't everyone's favourite focal length.
13:58
SPEAKER_00: So you have it's it's essentially a digital crop, right?
14:01
SPEAKER_00: You've got this 61 megapixel surface area, you crop in a little bit, you artificially increase the focal length.
14:07
SPEAKER_00: Crop in a bit more, it goes a bit further.
14:09
SPEAKER_00: It seems to work really well.
14:10
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, the more you crop in, the less resolution you have, but you're starting with 61, so it's it's still significant.
14:17
SPEAKER_00: The one thing that I think is a shame.
14:21
SPEAKER_00: Well, there's two things that are a shame, honestly.
14:23
SPEAKER_00: So you've got this lovely 35mm lens.
14:25
SPEAKER_00: This camera's tiny and it's easy to stabilize, but it does not have any stabilization otherwise.
14:31
SPEAKER_00: There's no IBIS.
14:32
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
14:33
SPEAKER_00: Which is one of the reasons why it's able to be so small, because there's no IBIS mechanism, but there's no in-body image stabilization, which does limit if your camera craft or your discipline is not spot on, with a 60 megapixel or 61 megapixel sensor, it will show every little bit of lack of discipline.
14:49
SPEAKER_00: So the the days of like holding it up at arm's length and taking a picture like it was a smartphone, you can forget that if you're shooting anything resembling a show uh shutter speed, um, holding it up to your really proper both.
15:00
David McClelland: Locked-in, really kind of rigid arm arm.
15:03
SPEAKER_00: That's the you know, that and and as as we should be using all cameras that way, really.
15:06
SPEAKER_00: Sort of elbows, elbows on ribs, making your own tripod um to create the stabilization.
15:11
SPEAKER_00: And you forget, we are spoiled.
15:13
SPEAKER_00: I especially am spoiled with stabilization.
15:15
SPEAKER_00: I've been using cameras with IBIS since 2014.
15:18
SPEAKER_00: So when I use a camera that doesn't have it, I forget how wobbly my hands actually are.
15:23
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's going to be a wake-up call for some people, because a lot of folks have the logic that, oh, I need to make better pictures, so I'm gonna get a camera with more resolution.
15:32
SPEAKER_00: But the more resolution you have, it might actually make your pictures worse if your camera discipline is not great because it will reveal every little shake that exists.
15:42
SPEAKER_00: So it doesn't have the eyebys, that's a potential downside.
15:45
SPEAKER_00: The other thing is the screen is fixed, doesn't tilt, doesn't flip, doesn't articulate.
15:51
SPEAKER_00: So again, this is designed to be a roving reportage street camera that most people would be using with the EVF.
16:01
SPEAKER_00: But if you are the sort of person who likes to flip it out and shoot sort of waist level, maybe one of those photographers who shoots discrete street portraiture or street candid photography, which you know, people have their opinions on that, but it is nonetheless thing that people do.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: Um, you can't do it because you can't flip the screen out to be able to look down at it.
16:16
SPEAKER_00: So it does limit your shooting opportunities in the ways we've become accustomed to.
16:21
SPEAKER_00: No IBIS, no flippy screen.
16:23
SPEAKER_00: But then you go back a few years, no cameras had IBIS and no flippy screen.
16:26
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it's kind of a first-world problem in that respect.
16:30
David McClelland: So I guess that leads us onto the question of who is it for then?
16:34
David McClelland: You know, you mentioned street photography as being something with that, particularly with that 35mm, and because it is quite a discrete camera in a way that maybe the Sigma BF that you had next door to you isn't quite so discreet.
16:48
David McClelland: You want to look at that thing for sure.
16:50
David McClelland: Um who do you think this is for?
16:52
David McClelland: Who uh obviously the Mark II had a really strong following uh and and the RX's as part of that range around that period as well were incredibly popular.
17:03
David McClelland: Um who do you think will be most drawn to the Mark III?
17:09
SPEAKER_00: That's I think that is the question everybody, including Sony, is asking.
17:14
SPEAKER_00: Because funnily enough, in this particular category of full-frame compact cameras with a big sensor, there's a surprising amount of choice.
17:23
SPEAKER_00: And the advantages the Sony has are it's technologically very clever, it is very small and very discreet.
17:33
SPEAKER_00: The criticisms I think a lot of people have, myself included, is that Sony cameras are wonderful examples of technical innovation.
17:41
SPEAKER_00: They don't have quite the soul or the spirit of a liker, of a Fuji film.
17:47
SPEAKER_00: They're not inspirational in the same way that those cameras might be, or certainly in the way those cameras are considered.
17:53
SPEAKER_00: So who is it for?
17:55
SPEAKER_00: It's for the person who wants to shoot who wants an everyday carry.
17:58
SPEAKER_00: I think that's a phrase that's become part of the photographer's parlance now.
18:01
SPEAKER_00: It's a perfect everyday carry camera.
18:04
SPEAKER_00: But there are others that fall in the same category.
18:07
SPEAKER_00: If you shoot street photography, reportage, documentary, family snaps is a great vacationing camera.
18:12
SPEAKER_00: You know, it fits all of those boxes, but then so do Lica's options, so do Fujifilm's options, and it's kind of competing against those guys.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: And those guys do have Ibis, and well, some of them do.
18:23
SPEAKER_00: Um those guys do have flippy screens.
18:26
SPEAKER_00: So it's it's a curious one.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: The people this appeals to, the alternatives also appeal to, and the alternatives appeal to the photographer's soul in another abstract way that this camera may not.
18:40
SPEAKER_00: So a curious one.
18:43
SPEAKER_00: I don't have a I don't have a concrete answer, is the cop-out response to your question.
18:47
David McClelland: And and maybe the fact that it's taken Sony nine years to come up with the successor to the Mark II, and it's still using the same lens in there, maybe suggests that um either the Mark II was doing incredibly well and it didn't need to put put a lot of resources into developing, retooling, releasing a new model, or maybe it wasn't sure, like you suggest there as to what exactly what the market for this might be.
19:14
David McClelland: You mentioned the others that are sort of in the same bracket in terms of a compact full frame.
19:19
David McClelland: Obviously, the likers uh in there for sure.
19:23
David McClelland: Um from the other kind of flagship camera brands though, what is there from our friends at Canon or friends at Nikon in this kind of full frame compact space?
19:33
SPEAKER_00: Interestingly, the answer is a big fat nothing, which is a bit of a, you know, it's been a glaring emission for some time.
19:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:39
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, since I I it's interesting because those of us who were sort of very much in our little photography bubble, and when we see things like the Fuji X105 take off when it took off, and we thought, this is this is it it's not the future, it's kind of the past, but the past was come back round.
19:55
SPEAKER_00: This is the future for the next 10 years, people are going to be wanting cameras like this.
19:59
SPEAKER_00: Whereas where's Canon's version of it?
20:01
SPEAKER_00: Where's Nikon's version of it?
20:02
SPEAKER_00: You would think the first thing they would do is down tools on whatever they were working on at the moment and throw a bunch of money and resource into making their own compact or full-frame compacts.
20:11
SPEAKER_00: And it just hasn't happened.
20:12
SPEAKER_00: On the Canon side of things, we've got things like the Canon PowerShop V1, uh, which is um a one-inch, you know, it's one point, it's it's a microphone, it's a 1.4-inch compact camera with a zoom lens designed primarily for vlogging.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: So a compact camera, but a very different proposition.
20:27
SPEAKER_00: Um Nikon don't have anything in that sphere.
20:30
SPEAKER_00: You know, you can look back to Nikon's older sort of compact cameras, but nothing in the current lineup.
20:34
SPEAKER_00: So it feels like a very, very big open goal and not a lot of folks kicking balls at it, which may be to the Sony's advantage.
20:42
SPEAKER_00: And like I said, for the longest time, maybe because we were so starved for the RX1R successor, you know, the parlance retail of the chatter really was Sony, just put a new sensor in it and give it to us as it was, it was fine.
20:53
SPEAKER_00: And I think we've got exactly what a lot of people wanted.
20:56
SPEAKER_00: And now they're like, oh, it's got no IBIS, or it's got no flippy screen, or this, that, and the other.
21:00
SPEAKER_00: And those are all perfectly valid issues.
21:03
SPEAKER_00: Perhaps the real kicker is the price.
21:07
SPEAKER_00: And there really is no getting around this.
21:09
David McClelland: Yeah, so I I and I guess the who is it for?
21:13
David McClelland: The price plays into that because my response would be it is for somebody who really wants this camera, it's not an accidental purchase, it's not a kind of unintentional, oh, I'll just upgrade.
21:25
David McClelland: It is a deliberate amount of money and a real deliberate choice to pick up this camera.
21:32
SPEAKER_00: Very much.
21:32
SPEAKER_00: In a way that the the way, and I I keep coming back to the X100, which isn't a direct technical comparison because that's an APS C sensor with a 40 megapixel resolution.
21:42
SPEAKER_00: So it's it doesn't do what this camera does, but it's the mold, right?
21:46
SPEAKER_00: It's the one that was successful.
21:47
SPEAKER_00: That camera exploded in popularity, I think in large parts, it's about a grand and a half.
21:53
SPEAKER_00: So it's not an impulse purchase to most, but it's not an impulse purchase to me, but I appreciate there's a lot of folks who have a bit more money than I do, and a grand.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: And a half, if you, you know, if you're in that more luxurious world or if you're upgrading kits, you might go, actually, that's not that different from buying a new, you know, gr quote unquote proper camera.
22:10
SPEAKER_00: I'll have one of those as well.
22:12
David McClelland: Yeah.
22:12
David McClelland: And I think that's maybe where the whole TikTok, the whole social media phenomenon came across came from, because it was aspirational, yet kind of just about affordable as well for a certain bracket of creator of TikTok residence.
22:27
David McClelland: But the um this is a different a different bracket altogether.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: It is.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, it's the thick end of five grand.
22:35
SPEAKER_00: And what's really interesting to me about that price point is that you've got the Fujifilm GFX 100RF, which is a medium format fixed lens compact camera.
22:47
SPEAKER_00: So if you are all about the resolution and the the sensor size, and that's cheaper.
22:53
SPEAKER_00: So you can have something that's a lot bigger than this, admittedly, it's a lot bigger, and it still doesn't have inbody and stabilization, which is its own conversation.
23:00
SPEAKER_00: I'd argue the lens on this is better than in the GFX 100RF.
23:04
SPEAKER_00: But if you are just that person looking at what you get for your money, for I don't know, best part of a grand less, you can have a medium format version of this camera.
23:13
SPEAKER_00: So again, the sort of person who might want this kind of tool, there are a lot of other options.
23:19
SPEAKER_00: You know, the Leica Q3 and the Q343 are more expensive, but they also, they're likers.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I would say maybe a grand and a half for the Fuji X100, you know, that's not, you know, uh, that's that's not drop of the uh spend of the drop of the hat money.
23:35
SPEAKER_00: Five grand, definitely that's an investment for anybody.
23:38
SPEAKER_00: And if you're gonna spend five grand on this and you're really into cameras, you might just go, actually, I'll spend six grand and get the one with the red dot.
23:47
David McClelland: Get the red dot, exactly that.
23:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:49
SPEAKER_00: I think that's the thing.
23:49
SPEAKER_00: And that and you know, the people for whom this is an attractive proposition would also, I think, go, you know what, if I put it on finance, an extra hundred quid a month or whatever, I'll probably get the one with the red dot.
24:00
SPEAKER_00: And that's the quandary, because it's a wonderful, it's a really capable camera, great AF, great performance, lovely lens, wonderful images that come out of it.
24:07
SPEAKER_00: It's got something resembling film simulations, not in the same way that Fujifilm does, but it does have um picture profiles that are quite filmic.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: So it does everything you might want of it, but it's so close to the other guys that you might just be tempted to go a bit more for the like a lot less for a Fuji.
24:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you pays your money, it takes your choice.
24:29
David McClelland: One thing that it's not, I understand, is video first.
24:32
David McClelland: It does video, but it's like 4K 30, 120 frames at 1080, but it's not a video workhorse.
24:40
David McClelland: And w would it be out of uh out of place to say if video is a big part of what you want to do with this, then maybe this isn't the camera for you.
24:50
David McClelland: You know, if you are investing a good chunk of money and you want to be able to do a bit of both, maybe review your options a bit.
24:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
24:58
SPEAKER_00: I would I would certainly say this is a street photography camera.
25:01
SPEAKER_00: So video is there.
25:03
SPEAKER_00: And I don't want to call it remedial, but it is kind of what it's kind of the industry-based line, 4K 30.
25:09
SPEAKER_00: You know, you kind of expect every camera these days to do that.
25:11
SPEAKER_00: I think the official line, not just from Sony, but from a lot of brands these days, is for cameras such as this, for whom video isn't top priority.
25:21
SPEAKER_00: They present it in such a way that ah, this is good for your Instagram reels and your stories and your incidental video.
25:28
SPEAKER_00: So while you're out doing your street photography, you might decide, oh, I want to do you know, a minute of vertical with whatever.
25:34
SPEAKER_00: And it's perfectly great for that.
25:35
SPEAKER_00: You know, if there's little snatches of video um for putting online on your socials, absolutely perfect.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: But yes, if you are a creator and you're somebody for whom video is actually needs to be you worried about codecs and bit rates and stuff, um, probably not the camera for you.
25:49
SPEAKER_00: But for someone who's a photographer first, maybe shoots a bit of incidental video, or you know, you take a picture of the kids and then they start playing football and keepy uppies or whatever, and they all get a bit of that, it's that kind of camera.
25:59
David McClelland: What I really like you mentioned about turning it vertical there if you are doing a reel or or or shooting a portrait if it's stills, is that the the menus all kind of flip around with it as well, which uh which is isn't isn't um isn't unheard of, but it's still really nice to see.
26:16
SPEAKER_00: It is, and I want I uh yes, like you say, it's not unheard of.
26:20
SPEAKER_00: The most recent camera that's done it, and it may be the first that's done it with such intention, was the Canon EOS R50V, which was the video-oriented version of the R50 entry-level mirrorless camera.
26:32
SPEAKER_00: And Canon put a lot of resource into this sort of seamless, going from horizontal, turn it vertical, all of the icons and um menu systems all slide around in a very nice way.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: A bit like when you use a smartphone, you know, it all sort of it it's it's slick and it's nice, um, and it makes a real difference.
26:48
SPEAKER_00: And this is that same experience.
26:49
SPEAKER_00: So you're shooting in landscape, oh I want to shoot Portrait now.
26:52
SPEAKER_00: Everything swivels around so it feels like an organic, friction-free kind of experience.
26:57
SPEAKER_00: You kind of wish all cameras did it, but then you realise that actually camera companies are not good at menu systems and interfaces.
27:03
SPEAKER_00: So the fact that they put investment into that, I think it's it's good on you for raising that, because that's definitely an undervalued point.
27:10
SPEAKER_00: I think we're all so used to using menus sideways that we forget actually we shouldn't have to do that.
27:15
SPEAKER_00: So when the companies give us a camera that does it, oh, I can shoot vertically with all the things are the right way up.
27:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, definite hats off to Tony for that.
27:23
SPEAKER_00: And it's it's uh it'd be nice if that trickled down to a lot of other cameras as well, but certainly you pay your five grand, you're gonna get menus vertical.
27:29
SPEAKER_00: So that's a big plus point.
27:31
David McClelland: James, I just love the fact that we're chatting about this camera.
27:34
David McClelland: You just happen to have it in your in your magic camera box there.
27:37
David McClelland: I would love to have a rummage through your camera box.
27:39
David McClelland: And I I know one or two other things that are in there that we aren't allowed to talk about yet, but that's uh that's that's great that you've got it's such great access and can talk with such authority when you know so much of the commentary online about about this camera, about many cameras, is just from having read the specs and you know seen other people.
27:59
David McClelland: You've actually been hands-on with this camera.
28:01
David McClelland: So it's great to hear your first hand reflections, all of which, I'm sure, are over there at digitalcameraworld.com.
28:08
SPEAKER_00: Yes, they are indeed.
28:09
SPEAKER_00: Come and join the fun.
28:11
David McClelland: Well, uh, we're gonna have to leave it there for now.
28:14
David McClelland: Next month in September, as we record, there's the there's a few bits of camera goodness coming up and and video goodness.
28:21
David McClelland: There is IBC, IBC in Amsterdam that takes place uh every September.
28:25
David McClelland: So I'll uh I'll do my best to try and be across that.
28:27
David McClelland: I'm not going this year, but uh I will uh certainly try and be across that.
28:32
David McClelland: Uh is there anything exciting that you're up to in the next few weeks that you're allowed to talk about?
28:38
SPEAKER_00: That I'm allowed to talk about that that's the that's the big one.
28:40
SPEAKER_00: Yes, there are some exciting things, and there are bits of paperwork that mean I can't talk about them.
28:44
SPEAKER_00: I think it's safe to say there is there are some fun new kits on the way.
28:49
SPEAKER_00: And we've had a bit of a lull in exciting new things for a little while, you know, the Sony notwithstanding, it's been a bit quiet from some of the big players.
28:56
SPEAKER_00: So it's nice.
28:57
SPEAKER_00: It feels like we're going into that post-summer season now, you know, IBC and things at EFA that are coming up, um, those shows where we're getting the more cinema-focused things as well.
29:07
SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, the whole spectrum seems to be coming together.
29:10
SPEAKER_00: Um, it feels like, you know, for a while the big brands have been sort of poised to make their announcements, and it feels like we're sort of approaching that sort of season.
29:18
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's it's an exciting time to be a camera geek.
29:21
David McClelland: I'm looking forward finally to some big news.
29:23
David McClelland: Uh, and again, I have no insight here, and I'm not I'm not digging or anything like that, but finally something more concrete from Nikon and Red.
29:32
David McClelland: Fingers crossed that there'll be something in September.
29:34
David McClelland: But again, I'm I I'm not digging for anything like that.
29:36
David McClelland: Uh, we will leave it there.
29:38
David McClelland: James, thank you so much for joining us.
29:40
David McClelland: Hopefully, we'll be able to uh uh surface some of the things you're not allowed to talk about uh yet very soon here on the Photography and Video Show podcast.
29:47
David McClelland: But for now, thanks a lot.
29:49
David McClelland: Thank you, David.
29:52
David McClelland: Hannah Cousins is a multi-award-winning portrait photographer, best known for her work with actors and authors, musicians and celebrities, as well as running a busy studio working with families and corporates.
30:04
David McClelland: She now mixes her work behind the camera with work in front of it as a European ambassador for Sony and an educator for Pro Photo.
30:14
SPEAKER_02: I'm very much a portrait person.
30:16
SPEAKER_02: I'm very and when I say that, I don't sort of delve into the you know, I don't really care about the fashion side of things, what people are wearing.
30:24
SPEAKER_02: Um I very much care about the person that I'm photographing and making sure I do an accurate job of representing who they are.
30:32
SPEAKER_02: That's why I guess sort of fashion and beauty and things like that don't really, I don't really cross over into those genres because it's the person, it really is about the person for me.
30:42
SPEAKER_02: Um my clients are completely varied all over the place.
30:45
SPEAKER_02: And for me, I just want to make sure that for I have to understand the brief correctly, what is it that they're coming in for?
30:52
SPEAKER_02: How do they want to be put across and getting to most importantly, getting to know that person enough so that in a very short space of time as well, enough so that I can basically give them a proper representation and a proper portrait of who they are.
31:07
David McClelland: So when I heard you speak at the photography and video show in London back in March this year, you were a lot on the Sony stage.
31:14
David McClelland: Uh I heard you say something and I wanted to I want you to expand on it now.
31:19
David McClelland: Maybe, maybe you'd said it before, maybe it was a throwaway comment, but let's just see what you got to say to it.
31:24
David McClelland: Uh, you said in front of the audience that I heard I'm not a real photographer.
31:31
David McClelland: I wonder what you meant by that.
31:34
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so that was probably a second part.
31:37
SPEAKER_02: Okay, that was me.
31:38
SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, I always joke about the fact that I don't use a light meter.
31:44
SPEAKER_02: And so that was the second part of that.
31:48
SPEAKER_02: So when everybody says, so I say to people, I'm like, I don't use a light meter, I'm not a real photographer, you know, kind of and you know, ingest basically, um, because I I know that a lot of people that I speak to when they're learning, etc., are so shocked when I turn around and say I don't use a light meter.
32:07
SPEAKER_02: Um and I still get it now.
32:09
SPEAKER_02: And I and I said, this isn't a diss to people that do or don't, it's just the way that I tend to work.
32:14
SPEAKER_02: Um, I would rather concentrate on keeping the flow going with the client um rather than coming from meter it.
32:21
SPEAKER_02: Um, I can do everything.
32:22
SPEAKER_02: I'm a pro photo user, so I can do everything from the trigger at the top of my camera.
32:26
SPEAKER_02: Um, I think it's quite amusing as well.
32:29
SPEAKER_02: I like to play the game of human light meter because I'm working a lot in I work in a very similar style.
32:35
SPEAKER_02: So I suppose sort of I get to know my lights, I get to know distances, I get to know my modifiers.
32:41
SPEAKER_02: So I'm pretty good at guessing for my first sort of my first shots as well.
32:45
SPEAKER_02: And kind of it becomes a little bit of a challenge to me.
32:48
SPEAKER_02: But I certainly know that if you were going by the book, buy a camera clubs, buy the all loads of things, I would be shot down because basically um it would be like, oh, I'm not doing things the proper way, as it were.
32:59
SPEAKER_02: So that was probably a comment on the second part of me sort of saying, I don't use a light meter, I'm not a real photographer, you know, because uh a lot of people kind of, yeah, I think it it gets a split reaction, um, you know, but I think people can sort of see see the joke of where I'm going is that I don't take myself very seriously.
33:18
SPEAKER_02: And I I think the whole thing doesn't really need to be taken too seriously either.
33:22
SPEAKER_02: I think we can all get far too caught up in the seriousness of what we should and shouldn't be doing, and we lose track of the fact that this is actually an art form and you should really be doing what you want.
33:32
SPEAKER_02: You're the artist.
33:33
David McClelland: And I think that draws out a really important point, particularly as you speak about the portrait work that you do, and it's about connection, it's about drawing out the person, and very often to draw out the person behind the portrait, then it's about a connection with the photographer, whether that's a real or a fake, whether you are triggering something in them for a kind of character shot or whatever it might be.
33:57
David McClelland: But that sense of not taking yourself too seriously, following your instincts and following your intuition rather than following goodness knows how many rules we have as uh as photographers, that sounds as though it's a really important part of how you've developed your skill as a portrait photographer.
34:18
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
34:19
SPEAKER_02: And uh, you know, don't get me wrong, I uh you know you have to, when you're first starting out, you're learning, um, there has to be some guidelines, you know.
34:26
SPEAKER_02: You kind of have to get a rough idea of where you're heading, of how you achieve this.
34:30
SPEAKER_02: And um, I I suppose, and this is also, I'm 20 years in this year, and so a lot of that has come from confidence of me being able to just go, yeah, okay, well, I don't care if this is supposed to be done by the book this way, I want to do it like this.
34:44
SPEAKER_02: I've got 20 years experience behind me and confidence in my work of being hired and all of this.
34:49
SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying I'm the greatest photographer in the world at all.
34:52
SPEAKER_02: Technically, there's people that are far better for me, better than me.
34:56
SPEAKER_02: There's people that probably aren't as good as me.
34:58
SPEAKER_02: We're somewhere in the middle, but the point is that I haven't lost track of the fact that my job is to connect with a person.
35:05
SPEAKER_02: Someone when I was first starting out when I was 16 and did my work experience, people have probably heard me say this before.
35:12
SPEAKER_02: Um, he told me that portraiture was 80% personality and 20% skill.
35:16
SPEAKER_02: And I thought that was really off.
35:18
SPEAKER_02: Um, but as time has gone on, I understand what he means.
35:23
SPEAKER_02: Um, and when people, when I'm teaching people and people come to workshops, etc., you can technically be the best photographer in the world, but if you can't connect with somebody, and sometimes the way I hear people talk to their subjects, and you know, it's very bizarre, it's very interesting.
35:39
SPEAKER_02: But as you say about not taking yourself too seriously, when I did first start out, I was very young, I was 19.
35:46
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I wasn't, I didn't have this confidence.
35:48
SPEAKER_02: I wasn't, I didn't have all of that, and I almost felt like I needed to make up for it.
35:52
SPEAKER_02: So I was very, I was probably taking myself a bit too seriously to be in sure that I was coming across in a professional manner.
36:00
SPEAKER_02: Um, and in so doing that, I left who I was behind.
36:05
SPEAKER_02: I lost sort of lost my personality.
36:06
SPEAKER_02: So I was so worried that people were thinking, oh, but you're just a kid, you're so young, and can you actually do it?
36:12
SPEAKER_02: I was so worried about making sure I was very professional with everything, but I left my personality behind and I started to realize that the more relaxed I was, the more relaxed the people in your company became as well.
36:24
SPEAKER_02: So I'm very much like that now.
36:26
SPEAKER_02: I sort of feel that you know, the more no matter who it is, I'm always myself.
36:30
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I'm not gonna be everybody's cup of tea 100%, and that is fine.
36:35
SPEAKER_02: But I think that there is something about you know you don't have to be best friends with these people that you're photographing, but I feel that there is something they will be able to pick up on, is if you are being genuine, authentic, and being yourself, and that way that allows them to do the same.
36:51
David McClelland: You you photograph actors as well, presenters, or all sorts of people come into your fantastic-looking shop there in St.
36:59
David McClelland: Albans on the High Street.
37:01
David McClelland: Um, is that is there anything different about when you are photographing somebody there for a family portrait, maybe bringing in a newborn or something, versus when you are working with an actor who is uh speaking from experience of working with actors and once upon a time as an actor, you are used to being somebody else.
37:22
David McClelland: You're used to kind of putting on a character.
37:24
David McClelland: And actually, there's a there's a lot of skill, three years of drama school as well, that help you actually just to be you.
37:31
David McClelland: Sometimes you need to work quite hard for that honesty, for leaving the bags, leaving the baggage at the door and being in a space, being in an environment and just being that authentic you.
37:42
David McClelland: You've kind of honed that skill and you've had an opportunity to learn.
37:46
David McClelland: But sometimes are you having to coach people who come in through the door to to almost be themselves, to remember to show their authentic selves in order that you can then bring that out of them in your portrait session?
37:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, definitely.
37:59
SPEAKER_02: Because let's face it, a not many people roll out of bed in the morning and think, oh, well, today's the day I'm gonna go and have my picture taken.
38:06
SPEAKER_02: There's usually a reason for it.
38:09
SPEAKER_02: Um, so for actors, it could be that um they are needing new headshots because they suddenly are sick of being typecast and they want to change that up, or perhaps there's a particular thing that they want to be, you know, auditioning for.
38:21
SPEAKER_02: If you've just had a new baby, you might want to document this tiny, you know, a little tiny human you've just created.
38:27
SPEAKER_02: All the emotions are there, all the feelings are there.
38:29
SPEAKER_02: Um, so it's a very different experience for each person.
38:33
SPEAKER_02: But sometimes, I mean, the actors are kind of different because most of the time they've they've done it before.
38:38
SPEAKER_02: But for a lot of people that walk into my studio, this might be their first time that they've ever been in a studio, or it could be their first photo shoot.
38:45
SPEAKER_02: And so and I've also photographed a hell of a lot of corporate work as well, and um business owners, and these are people that perhaps have been in the corporate world and all of that, but this is the first time that they are starting their own business and they suddenly feel like they're out on their own and everything's new for them, suddenly their own position where they've got to be, they've got to be the face of their business, they're not just sort of tucked away somewhere in the back, and it's a whole new experience for them.
39:10
David McClelland: There's a pressure to be something, almost to be someone, and that artifice can break that connection that you want when you are trying to capture their portrait.
39:20
SPEAKER_02: This is it.
39:21
SPEAKER_02: So, as I said at the beginning, this is very much a case of finding out what is what are we doing this for, what are the portraits for?
39:28
SPEAKER_02: Yep, who are they, and how do they want to come across?
39:32
SPEAKER_02: Now it could be, and there's a lot of the time, and I'm saying I'm it an accurate, you know, I'm making an accurate representation of who they are, that is correct.
39:40
SPEAKER_02: But we all have different versions of ourselves in the sense that when I go on stage, I'm still Hannah, I am still Hannah, I'm completely still Hannah.
39:47
SPEAKER_02: Um, but of course, there has to be an element of you've got to step up and perform almost.
39:53
SPEAKER_02: So there has to be extra element of confidence, Hannah.
39:57
SPEAKER_02: Um, whereas sometimes when I'm, you know, I'm kicking around the park with the kids, you know, and I'm just I'm not really my my head's just in a different place, you know.
40:06
SPEAKER_02: I'm still me, but just it just takes different, different skills.
40:09
SPEAKER_02: So it's the same if you're launching a new business or something like that.
40:13
SPEAKER_02: Suddenly, this could be that they're actually not feeling that comfortable.
40:17
SPEAKER_02: Um this isn't the you know, they know they have to do it, they know they want to do it, but they have to come across like they've been doing this all their life and they're completely confident you can trust them and all of this.
40:28
SPEAKER_02: So there is an element of like both of us getting like, okay, we can do this, it's gonna be fine.
40:33
SPEAKER_02: And that is the same for anyone that walks through the door.
40:36
SPEAKER_02: The same with the new parents that might walk through the door, this is their first time.
40:40
SPEAKER_02: Um, as I say, they've you know, it perhaps mum's just given birth, this is they don't really know what's going on, everything's new for them.
40:46
SPEAKER_02: And all I'm there really to do is kind of go, it's gonna be fine, it's gonna be okay.
40:51
SPEAKER_02: I'm here to make sure it's gonna be fine.
40:53
SPEAKER_02: Um, and that is just really putting people at ease.
40:56
SPEAKER_02: And I think that is the nicest compliment when I get feedback is when people say, You really put me at ease and I really enjoyed myself.
41:03
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, that's it.
41:04
SPEAKER_02: And they get the you know, the photos too, of course, that's great, but the experience to get them there, it has to be a good experience, otherwise they're not gonna relax and you're not gonna get those shots at all.
41:14
David McClelland: As someone who conducts a lot of interviews, not only with people who are used to appearing on camera, but again, corporates, business people, people who are not used to answering questions in a foreign environment, that feedback is lovely to get.
41:32
David McClelland: Thank you.
41:33
David McClelland: You made me feel comfortable, you helped me be the best version of myself that I feel I could be in that context, right?
41:40
David McClelland: That's that's it's exactly you know.
41:43
David McClelland: That's the golden tick.
41:44
SPEAKER_02: 100%, you know.
41:46
David McClelland: You mentioned 20 years in business.
41:50
David McClelland: Wow.
41:50
David McClelland: Um working with entrepreneurs and people who are just starting up businesses.
41:55
David McClelland: Uh, among your many accolades, Hannah, you are well, were, but I'm gonna say still are young bird, young business person of the year 2010 and 2012.
42:05
David McClelland: Congratulations for those accolades.
42:07
SPEAKER_03: Oh my gosh.
42:08
SPEAKER_02: I still I am 100% past the young category now.
42:12
SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm past that about 20 years ago, but it was um it was it was good fun and they're nice things to have.
42:18
SPEAKER_02: Um it was yeah, it was fun to do.
42:21
SPEAKER_02: It has been a ride.
42:22
SPEAKER_02: Um, it's quite strange because yeah, definitely October this year will will mark 20 years of me being self-employed and HCP being a business.
42:32
SPEAKER_02: It's so strange.
42:33
David McClelland: Well, so you were an early bloomer, you qualified for the BIPP at age 19, probably some sort of record.
42:40
David McClelland: You opened a high street portrait studio when you were 22.
42:44
David McClelland: So really a uh a uh an early achiever in many ways.
42:50
David McClelland: What was driving you back then?
42:53
David McClelland: Was it the business ambition?
42:56
David McClelland: Was it flexing your creative muscles?
42:59
David McClelland: Did you even know at the time what it was that was driving you towards achieving something, whatever it was?
43:06
SPEAKER_02: It was an interesting question.
43:07
SPEAKER_02: So I feel like I feel like I've just been lucky because I knew what I wanted to do at an early age, and I feel that really does help because of course back then I'd been doing all sorts of things.
43:19
SPEAKER_02: So I'm, you know, a very long story short.
43:23
SPEAKER_02: This is what I knew I wanted to do.
43:24
SPEAKER_02: I left school at 16, went to college, studied photography for two years intensely, came out of there, and because I was so young, that's why I looked to join the BIPP.
43:34
SPEAKER_02: And you know, someone sort of pointed me in the direction of that because I thought, I feel like I'm so young, I feel like I need something to show that I'm qualified.
43:42
SPEAKER_02: I mean, obviously it's different, it's different now.
43:44
SPEAKER_02: Now I've kind of like come, you know, 20 years down the road, you realise that people have just got to like your work.
43:49
SPEAKER_02: That is actually all that matters.
43:51
SPEAKER_02: Um, however, back then, being that young, I sort of felt like I needed an official qualification that wasn't just a sort of you know, college diploma.
44:00
SPEAKER_02: Um, which is why I sort of had went in that direction.
44:04
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, pretty much it was it this, and I often say this to people if I wasn't doing this, I literally don't know what else I would be doing because this is all I have done.
44:13
SPEAKER_02: And I wasn't sort of really hard pushed to, you know, I mean, as I was growing up, I suppose my interest was, and I still am interested and fascinated by other business owners and you know, kind of how they work.
44:26
SPEAKER_02: A lot of I've read a lot of biographies of, you know, kind of all your standard, your standard entrepreneurs, and because I just because I found it interesting, I found their journeys really inspiring and encouraging.
44:36
SPEAKER_02: And that's what I took interest in.
44:38
SPEAKER_02: I don't, I don't read, they're the only things that I have read.
44:41
SPEAKER_02: Um, and it just sort of, I don't know, it just sort of made me when you're that age, when you are 20, or you know, 20 to 22 is when I was really starting to do things for myself.
44:52
SPEAKER_02: I worked for other people and I found out I could sell for them, which was massively encouraging as well.
44:58
SPEAKER_02: So that sort of made me any doubts that I might have had of, you know, is my work gonna sell, I'd already had that kind of insight because I've been working for other people and my images were selling.
45:09
SPEAKER_02: So I sort of knew I had an insight that my work would sell and for a reasonable amount of money, perhaps more than what I would have charged if I'd just gone out there on my own, if you know what I mean.
45:20
SPEAKER_02: Um, so that sort of gave me, and I got to the point where I was like, well, I'm doing this and running this stuff for other people, I might as well just do it for myself.
45:28
SPEAKER_02: Um, being, you know, young, 22, and no commitments, just the yeah, whatever, I've got nothing to lose, that kind of attitude massively helps.
45:38
SPEAKER_02: Of course, now, now of course everybody can do math, everyone's figure it out.
45:41
SPEAKER_02: I'm 42, having, you know, kids to support and you know, mortgage to pay, all those sorts of things, life takes you on a different journey.
45:48
SPEAKER_02: Back then, I didn't have those commitments.
45:50
SPEAKER_02: I just moved back from New Zealand, I moved in with my parents, I was just like, let's just give it a try and see, you know, and see what happens.
45:56
SPEAKER_02: So I did have that insight, like that insight of working for other people and the blessing of being young and not having those life commitments that other people do now.
46:07
David McClelland: Were you just following your own nose at that point, or were you being inspired by any other business people or photographers or people working in the creative industry who you thought, actually, that there feels like a next step.
46:19
David McClelland: That's somewhere I'd like to work towards.
46:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, definitely.
46:23
SPEAKER_02: Um, I was um no, I had I had a very good business mentor as well, but nothing he was nothing to do with photography.
46:29
SPEAKER_02: He was a toy inventor um and a massively massively successful one, unfortunately.
46:35
SPEAKER_02: He's passed now.
46:36
SPEAKER_02: But um, yeah, he was um massively successful, sold his business for an astronomical amount, but names like Mattel, Bluebird, uh all household names of toys that you would have known growing up, you and I would have played with growing up.
46:48
SPEAKER_02: Um, so it wasn't related to photography at all, but his business sense and his advice, because he was the person that told me when I was 15 that I was unemployable, which I took as the biggest insult.
46:59
SPEAKER_02: I was like, what do you mean I'm unemployable?
47:02
David McClelland: That's a big statement to make to a to a 15.
47:05
David McClelland: I I I have a daughter who's 15 years old now, and goodness knows I don't know how she'd be if I were to say that to her.
47:10
SPEAKER_02: Right.
47:11
SPEAKER_02: However, exactly.
47:13
David McClelland: What did he mean by that?
47:14
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
47:15
SPEAKER_02: This is where I got it wrong because initially I thought, oh my god, what's wrong with me?
47:19
SPEAKER_02: Why am I this?
47:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, what does he mean?
47:21
SPEAKER_02: And he said, No, no, no, he said you're not understanding me right, because he's very blunt and to the point he said, You're getting the wrong end of the stick.
47:26
SPEAKER_02: He said, You're unemployable because you're an entrepreneur.
47:29
SPEAKER_02: You are going to be working for yourself, you have to work for yourself.
47:31
SPEAKER_02: You're one of life's people, you will be doing this for yourself.
47:35
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, How?
47:36
SPEAKER_02: I'm 15.
47:37
SPEAKER_02: How am I going to work for myself, etc., etc.
47:40
SPEAKER_02: And you know, he kind of over time sort of you know showed me the way of how to do things, and you know, which was one of which was negotiating a lease on a property when I was 21 years old.
47:52
SPEAKER_02: Um, and this isn't somebody coming in, stepping in, doing it for you.
47:56
SPEAKER_02: He was saying, because the guy wasn't coming back to me.
47:58
SPEAKER_02: I felt, you know, you're kind of building up the courage to pick up the phone and and do it, you know, because of course it's all scary at that age.
48:04
SPEAKER_02: And the guy wasn't coming back to me because he was pretty much thinking, who's this kid?
48:08
SPEAKER_02: as if he, you know, she's gonna be able to afford this, etc., etc.
48:11
SPEAKER_02: Um, and he said, Then you, I said, look, he's not coming back to me.
48:14
SPEAKER_02: I don't think this is gonna work.
48:15
SPEAKER_02: He said, No.
48:16
SPEAKER_02: He said, You pick up the phone and you ring again tomorrow.
48:18
SPEAKER_02: And he said, then you ring again the day after, and you ring again the day after.
48:22
SPEAKER_02: I was like, I can't because I'll be a pain.
48:24
SPEAKER_02: He said, Exactly, and that's exactly what I want you to do.
48:27
SPEAKER_02: Be a pain, because you'll get to the point where he's like, Do you know what?
48:30
SPEAKER_02: I'm so sick of this kid calling me every day, I might as well just say yes.
48:33
SPEAKER_02: And he was right, that's exactly what happened.
48:35
SPEAKER_02: And he this the the the landlord took a punt on me as well, which was incredible.
48:40
SPEAKER_02: Um, but I wouldn't, without having that mentor say encouraging me to do things perhaps not the the traditional way, and I felt, I mean, don't get me wrong, every day I picked up the phone and made that same phone call.
48:54
SPEAKER_02: I felt sick to my stomach because I knew I was being a pain, and that isn't in my instinct to be a pain, um, if I could help it.
49:01
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's different when you're older and you've got more confidence, but at that age, I was like, oh, you know, kind of like hoping in some respects that he wouldn't pick up because I was like, I'm gonna have to have that conversation again.
49:11
SPEAKER_02: But it got me what I wanted, and that sort of made me realize there's different ways of doing this thing.
49:17
SPEAKER_02: It's not just down the straight road, there's other ways in which to do it.
49:21
SPEAKER_02: So I did have a fantastic business mentor, but yeah, lots of people, and perhaps I I did think that my business was gonna go in a different direction.
49:29
SPEAKER_02: So it's at one point I thought I would expand.
49:33
SPEAKER_02: I had two premises, six staff, and hated every single minute of it.
49:38
SPEAKER_02: Oh, six staff, goodness me.
49:40
David McClelland: I mean, we as a as a as a young business, as a as a as a startup, I guess you are looking at different models that you can use to try and scale, to try and grow without you working 367 days a year, 24 hours a day.
49:56
David McClelland: So, you know, bringing on extra staff is certainly a thing, but that that changes the nature of your work, right?
50:02
SPEAKER_02: It does.
50:03
SPEAKER_02: And that just showed me it was the biggest lesson because basically I'd had one premises, and there was myself and two others that were working in there, one front, one front of house, one other photographer.
50:12
SPEAKER_02: And then I thought, well, let's replicate this in a busier town because this is great.
50:15
SPEAKER_02: But what if we went somewhere busier?
50:16
SPEAKER_02: Now we're, you know, we're used to coping with volume.
50:18
SPEAKER_02: So I did the same.
50:19
SPEAKER_02: I went up there with two other people and then replaced myself almost.
50:23
SPEAKER_02: But then you realize that there were two things.
50:27
SPEAKER_02: Firstly, I wasn't seeing any clients, and at one point I wasn't really even doing much photography.
50:31
SPEAKER_02: People would come and go, I didn't know who they were, and I hated that.
50:34
SPEAKER_02: I was like, and actually, the other thing is that photography is personal, and it came back to the same old thing that if you are gonna be the photographer, it's about you and your connection.
50:45
SPEAKER_02: So I would have other photographers in there, and they were great and they were lovely and all very nice.
50:49
SPEAKER_02: But if someone has met you, have met you at a networking event, let's say, or something like that, and they want to then come and have their headshot taken, and you're like, Oh hi, yeah, it was nice to meet you, you're gonna be with so-and-so today.
51:00
SPEAKER_02: They're like, Oh wait, but I thought I was yeah, I thought I just met you, so I thought it was you that was gonna.
51:04
SPEAKER_02: And it was a big lesson, and I was really miserable, and slowly, slowly, circumstances became that I sort of I got rid of one premises and then just sort of went back and then ended up doing everything myself again.
51:16
SPEAKER_02: I was much happier for it.
51:17
SPEAKER_02: So an interesting lesson.
51:19
SPEAKER_02: So sometimes big art is not better.
51:22
David McClelland: All of that, taking on the shop lease, making those first steps as uh well, has Hannah Cousin's photography?
51:29
David McClelland: That was a little while ago.
51:30
David McClelland: In the intervening period, you've gone from being a working photographer and business person to a working mum, photographer and business person.
51:40
David McClelland: Two young children now?
51:42
David McClelland: Yes, yeah.
51:43
David McClelland: Um how's how's that been?
51:46
David McClelland: How are you balancing what wearing those three hats at least?
51:50
SPEAKER_02: Honestly, David, this is the biggest challenge of my life.
51:53
SPEAKER_02: This is the the biggest challenge, and um because mine are very close together and they're very young, so Joel will be four in September.
52:01
SPEAKER_02: Sienna's just turned two.
52:02
SPEAKER_02: Um, so it's um it's I mean, I had to have them close together because we were getting older, and basically biology is biology, and the surgeon pretty much said to me, You need to hurry up.
52:14
SPEAKER_02: And that this is the surgeon I had after having my first because I had a C-section because he was upside down.
52:19
SPEAKER_02: And uh I was like, Well, how long do you generally leave it?
52:21
SPEAKER_02: And he would say, he would said, Well, you know, probably about two years for your body to fully recover, should you need another C-section, etc.
52:28
SPEAKER_02: I was like, Okay, he said, How old are you?
52:30
SPEAKER_02: And I said, um 38.
52:32
SPEAKER_02: I was 38 at the time.
52:34
SPEAKER_02: And he said, Oh, six months.
52:35
SPEAKER_02: I was like, wait, what just happened?
52:37
SPEAKER_03: Oh, wow, okay.
52:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I was like, Oh, so it was a big, a big shift, and we kind of just went, Well, if we're in for a penny, we're in for a pound.
52:46
SPEAKER_02: We were like, let's just, you know, we knew we wanted more than one if we were lucky enough to do that.
52:51
SPEAKER_02: And um, I think timing-wise and sort of everything else of you know how my body is now, you kind of realize that we probably just did that by the skin of our teeth.
53:00
SPEAKER_02: But my word, they are wonderful, but they age us.
53:03
SPEAKER_02: It's um you know, they it's the bags under my eyes, it's the because the kids kids don't know.
53:09
SPEAKER_02: They don't they don't know if you've had a long day, they don't care, it's not their problem either.
53:13
SPEAKER_02: You know, it's they they still, you know, and that that's the fun thing is trying to trying to juggle it all.
53:19
SPEAKER_02: Um it just requires so many different parts of my brain, and flipping between during the day is I do find it very hard.
53:27
SPEAKER_02: It is a massive challenge because I want to be the sort of person that does everything the best that I can, which is sort of my downfall as well.
53:35
David McClelland: Yeah, the the pie is only so large, however.
53:39
David McClelland: Um, so how how would you say that that being a busy working mum has changed how you work practically, of course, the logistical challenges or all of the balancing there.
53:49
David McClelland: But I wonder if it has changed how you work creatively in in any way about how you think about the work, about your output, about your connection with certain clients or client groups as a result of being a mum?
54:04
SPEAKER_02: It's a good question.
54:05
SPEAKER_02: Um, because it's one that I hadn't really sort of thought about.
54:09
SPEAKER_02: But it is weird, it's it's kind of you're very lucky and fortunate to be able to join a club.
54:14
SPEAKER_02: You know, you're very fortunate that you you get to join the parent club.
54:18
SPEAKER_02: Not many people can do that, and not everybody can do that that really wants to as well.
54:22
SPEAKER_02: So every single day, even if they're driving me nuts, I still am very appreciative about the fact I have them because many people would love to be in the position.
54:31
SPEAKER_02: First thing there's I'm in a very fortunate position position.
54:34
SPEAKER_02: People would love to be in the position of being a full-time working photographer, and people would love to be in the position as a mum.
54:39
SPEAKER_02: Um, so I I do feel like I've won the lottery of life, and especially when I've been out at work, perhaps it's not been a full-day shoot because those I find hard.
54:49
SPEAKER_02: Um, we do manage the kids between us, we don't, they're not in nursery or anything like that just yet.
54:54
SPEAKER_02: We decided that we were gonna take care of them because uh my other half videographer, so we we chop and change between us, but even that brings its challenges because then we go, yeah, when our clients want the same date, we're kind of like, okay, well, who takes the job?
55:06
SPEAKER_02: Um, what do we do?
55:08
SPEAKER_02: And but we sort of said five years out of our life, you know, roughly, roughly five years before they go to school, and then they're gonna be at school for X amount of time, we would rather be with them and try to, I don't know, it just it just makes you look at things differently.
55:25
SPEAKER_02: And so you realize that the relationships that you have, especially if you've lost as well, you know, having lost my mum, suddenly makes you look at life completely differently and relationships completely differently, and you realise that time it's it just becomes so much more important.
55:40
SPEAKER_02: So instead of getting caught up in what everybody in society thinks that I should be doing with my kids, or you know, which perhaps initially I was a little bit, oh, you know, should they bring a nursery, should they bring this?
55:50
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, they're my kids, I'm gonna bring them up however I want, because on my deathbed, I'm gonna be thinking about my relationship with them, the memories I gave for them, the foundation that I gave for them, rather than what everybody else thought I should be doing.
56:03
SPEAKER_02: Um because you realise that time is precious, it just makes you re-evaluate things.
56:07
SPEAKER_02: And so therefore, you realise with your clients as well, a lot of you know, a lot of people that I photograph are also parents.
56:13
SPEAKER_02: We all have something, we have something in common.
56:16
SPEAKER_02: Um so when people walk through the door and they're like, oh my god, can you do something about the bags under my eyes?
56:20
SPEAKER_02: My uh youngest got up at four o'clock this morning.
56:22
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, join the club.
56:23
SPEAKER_02: I was like, no exactly how that feels, and you know, there's a common ground sort of straightaway, you're more sympathetic, you've been in the situation, you end up talking about all kinds of different things and how family life is, and you know, how the juggle and how we're all in the same boat trying to make this thing work.
56:39
SPEAKER_02: Um, so it's a nice kind of it's an interesting uh way that how you I had to I had to cancel on one guy, which you know I hate doing, but I ended up um having to take my son to the hospital.
56:52
SPEAKER_02: He was only eight months old, he'd ended up getting COVID, we didn't realise at the time.
56:56
SPEAKER_02: Um, but I didn't know what was wrong with him, and nobody knew that he had COVID, and you know, I was in the hospital late at night, it was getting later and later and later, and I didn't know if we were staying overnight, so I just had to message him and say, I'm so sorry, I'm not gonna be able to do a headshot in the morning.
57:10
SPEAKER_02: I bet you know, I I thought it's his milk allergy, I don't know what it is.
57:14
SPEAKER_02: And he just messaged me back and said, Hannah, I have three children, one of which has a severe milk, uh, a severe allergy.
57:20
SPEAKER_02: I know exactly what this is like.
57:22
SPEAKER_02: Take care of you, take care of your kid, and we'll figure this out.
57:25
SPEAKER_02: It's only a photo, it doesn't matter.
57:27
SPEAKER_02: And it was like the best reply I could have got because I felt this overwhelming sense of guilt at having to cancel or rearrange.
57:34
SPEAKER_02: But he just kind of went, I understand, I know where I've been where you are, I get it, it's completely fine.
57:41
SPEAKER_02: I sympathize with you, just concentrate on you.
57:44
SPEAKER_02: And suddenly it was like, Oh, yeah, of course.
57:46
SPEAKER_02: All these people that, you know, they are just people and they are just, you know, have families too.
57:50
SPEAKER_02: They do also experience these things.
57:52
SPEAKER_02: So perhaps everything that I've been blowing out of proportion before about how important things are, it's you do realize that everyone is just trying to make this work, and we're just all in it together.
58:04
SPEAKER_02: So it's a nice kind of common ground that you have with people.
58:07
David McClelland: Do you know it's it's funny?
58:09
David McClelland: I remember very clearly when uh when my first daughter was born.
58:13
David McClelland: I have two two daughters who are four, uh, fifteen and twelve now.
58:19
David McClelland: Um, and I was at my best man's house, very, very good friend of mine, and he had three kids by that point.
58:27
David McClelland: And they were always, oh, this is daddy's friend.
58:30
David McClelland: Um, nice guy, but you know, fine, we we'll we'll wave and then and then whatever.
58:36
David McClelland: I walked in with a bait with with my with my daughter that day when we went to visit, and it was like, Oh, you're a daddy, oh, we know what to do with daddies, and then within half an hour the kids were jumping all over me, wrestling me to the ground.
58:52
David McClelland: Now, I always remember friends uh saying, Oh, David, when you have kids, it'll hit you like a bus.
58:58
David McClelland: Goodness me, you won't, you know, in a kind of jokey-jokey way.
59:02
David McClelland: And I didn't really know what that meant, and of course, it it wasn't some apart from the sleep, perhaps, didn't really hit me.
59:10
David McClelland: But what changed most of all was the dynamic that people had with me, I think, because people go, Oh, you're a dad.
59:17
David McClelland: Oh, right, okay.
59:18
David McClelland: As you say, you're in that club, you know all of these things.
59:22
David McClelland: We have all of these shared experiences that we now have in common.
59:25
David McClelland: And with children, that manifests itself in a very different way to other adults going, Oh, yeah, okay, how's the sleep going?
59:31
David McClelland: You know, all the knowing looks and so on.
59:33
David McClelland: But yeah, you're right, it does break ice, it does, and we've spoken so much about connection today already.
59:39
David McClelland: It just creates a different level of of connection, which however you choose to use that in your work, you you certainly can.
59:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it does, and you're a hundred percent right.
59:49
SPEAKER_02: That's exactly it.
59:50
SPEAKER_02: And that's a really lovely and interesting story of how the kids perceived you as well.
59:54
SPEAKER_02: It's like it is fascinating.
59:56
SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, it's just I don't know, you just you just I don't know, and I perhaps have seen things differently.
1:00:03
SPEAKER_02: Perhaps if I'm photographing a lady that's pregnant now, having been through it twice, you know, you kind of like are more appreciative of uh, you know, or or or sensitive to the fact that you know, I'm like, okay, it always I used to check on people anyway, but you check on people in a different way.
1:00:17
SPEAKER_02: You're like, are you okay?
1:00:19
SPEAKER_02: Or you know, they'll be like, No, I'm fine.
1:00:20
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, no, actually, you sit down for five minutes, I'm gonna change the lights and set up.
1:00:23
SPEAKER_02: You know, you just like it's a different level, it just it just changes things.
1:00:27
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, it's it's lovely.
1:00:29
SPEAKER_02: Um, and boy, it has showed me that I can get my work done in a very short space of time because I have to.
1:00:36
SPEAKER_02: So there's that part as well.
1:00:39
David McClelland: So efficiency.
1:00:41
David McClelland: Um, it's funny you should mention that because uh just to but move the conversation on to something that I'm not really sure if I want to talk about or not, because there are so many conversations about AI.
1:00:54
David McClelland: I knew that was done.
1:00:55
David McClelland: Yeah, goodness me.
1:00:56
David McClelland: Uh there's enough of that on the internet and podcasts, and goodness knows where else.
1:01:00
David McClelland: But I am nevertheless, I feel as though on this in the conversations that we have on this show, we've sort of moved past the novelty.
1:01:09
David McClelland: You know, we're what, three years in almost to this generative AI wave right now.
1:01:13
David McClelland: There's a lot of the hype, a lot of the fear still there, but uh a lot of that has kind of moved to one side as people are experiencing trying, finding their own, finding out for themselves the way that all of a sudden these different tools than what were available before might be able to help them.
1:01:33
David McClelland: So I'm just curious, my m my duty, I guess it is to ask uh how is AI playing part of your workflow, particularly when time is increasingly precious in a way that not that it wasn't precious before, but there are different pressures on your time now that weren't there before.
1:01:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, 100% it is.
1:01:53
SPEAKER_02: And I would be a fool not to, is kind of the way that I look at it because I was searching.
1:01:58
SPEAKER_02: There's there's a couple of a couple of things that spring to mind here, and it remind me if I forget to tell you about a job that fell through.
1:02:05
SPEAKER_02: So the first thing is the editing side of things.
1:02:08
SPEAKER_02: I had been looking to outsource my editing for so long.
1:02:12
SPEAKER_02: And of course, I was I like everybody else get the thousands of emails about clipping path companies and all of this every single day.
1:02:20
SPEAKER_02: And I just and I even looked at independent retouches, etc.
1:02:25
SPEAKER_02: And I just couldn't find anything.
1:02:28
SPEAKER_02: It was so overprocessed for me because a huge part of my stuff is that I don't really want it to look like it's been edited.
1:02:35
SPEAKER_02: I don't want, I don't like that overdone look.
1:02:37
SPEAKER_02: I there's no point in me kind of going to all this effort of getting to know somebody and finding out who they are.
1:02:42
SPEAKER_02: I need to completely transform them in Photoshop and they don't look anything like they are anyway.
1:02:46
SPEAKER_02: That would be a complete waste of time.
1:02:48
SPEAKER_02: Um so to get to get it right, where of course, yes, those people that have had the late nights, those people that have had a breakout, whatever, whatever, trying to undo those things that they don't want to be a permanent record, and maybe if they come in the following week they wouldn't have been there.
1:03:02
SPEAKER_02: So something non-permanent.
1:03:04
SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, I mean, there's then having found some software that can edit in a more almost realistic and better, a faster way that I probably could in the first place.
1:03:17
SPEAKER_02: What did you do?
1:03:18
SPEAKER_02: Yes, David.
1:03:19
SPEAKER_02: This is the thing.
1:03:20
SPEAKER_02: This is the thing because I thought when I looked at this, I was looking into it and I thought, oh, and and this is me kind of like, you know, thinking about the time it took and everything else.
1:03:30
SPEAKER_02: And then I'm thinking about small things because I'm not the best retoucher in the world at all.
1:03:35
SPEAKER_02: Um, I did all right for what I've been using it for probably yeah, two, two years, maybe, maybe and not a huge amount of time.
1:03:42
SPEAKER_02: So I'd retouched every single single image that had gone out before then myself.
1:03:46
SPEAKER_02: I'd never and because every I had concerns about where it was going.
1:03:50
SPEAKER_02: I didn't want to upload it somewhere.
1:03:52
SPEAKER_02: These are pictures of people, people's families.
1:03:54
SPEAKER_02: I don't want them, you know, I don't know where I don't want to just send them off somewhere and not have control over where they are.
1:03:59
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to give them to somebody else.
1:04:01
SPEAKER_02: And I don't know, I'm a bit funny about that.
1:04:03
SPEAKER_02: I sort of felt like I wouldn't really want photos of my family being sent off on a Dropbox somewhere and somebody on across the other side of the world was doing it.
1:04:10
SPEAKER_02: And that, you know, I don't know, it just made me feel uncomfortable.
1:04:12
SPEAKER_02: So then I looked at something and I went, I looked at it and I went, you know what?
1:04:16
SPEAKER_02: I think that's actually done a better job than I would have done.
1:04:19
SPEAKER_02: And that is interesting.
1:04:21
SPEAKER_02: That's when you're like, okay, if this has better skills than I have, this is good.
1:04:26
SPEAKER_02: Like, use them, you know.
1:04:27
SPEAKER_02: It's if if somebody had edited that, I thought if somebody had edited that and I had paid them to do that, I would be well happy with the result that I got there.
1:04:35
SPEAKER_02: So and add into that as well how much how much time that gives me back.
1:04:42
SPEAKER_02: And for the out, you know, for the outcome to be better, the efficiency sort of just oh, just can't even tell you how much time I save.
1:04:52
SPEAKER_02: I am absolutely all for it in that sense.
1:04:56
SPEAKER_02: So like I would be, as I say, I would be a fool not to use it.
1:05:00
SPEAKER_02: And then the other side of that is that it all stays on my computer, and I like I like the way it works.
1:05:06
SPEAKER_02: I'm not having to send it off.
1:05:07
SPEAKER_02: All the concerns that I had are being managed.
1:05:10
SPEAKER_02: So that is where AI has been beneficial for me, and I kind of feel like it's gonna be one of these things that if you don't find out a way of how to make it work for you and to incorporate it somehow, it will eat you.
1:05:23
SPEAKER_02: I feel like we're kind of there with it.
1:05:25
SPEAKER_02: I feel like you've got to try to find the way of how you work with it because if you're gonna push against it, all of a sudden it's just gonna flatten you over.
1:05:32
SPEAKER_02: I kind of I feel that's kind of where it may end up.
1:05:37
David McClelland: Yeah.
1:05:38
David McClelland: But there are the cliches, aren't they, about you know, so many jobs will disappear or so many people will lose their use their job because of AI.
1:05:47
David McClelland: But but but I think the reality, and it's it's a cliche in its own right, is that you won't be replaced by an AI.
1:05:53
David McClelland: You'll be replaced by somebody who knows how to work with an AI, who uses AI.
1:05:58
SPEAKER_02: So Absolutely moving on from that.
1:06:01
SPEAKER_02: And I had a uh brief come in from an agency uh a couple of probably about three or four weeks ago now.
1:06:08
SPEAKER_02: Very interesting one.
1:06:09
SPEAKER_02: It was for um a petroleum company, should we say?
1:06:12
SPEAKER_02: Um, and um it was kind of the budget was okay, it was all right.
1:06:17
SPEAKER_02: But then when they said they wanted they wanted four models, um, they wanted um usage rights for Europe and uh for three years.
1:06:26
SPEAKER_02: So kind of you started to add this up, and then of course there's my there's my usage rights as well on top of that.
1:06:31
SPEAKER_02: Um but trying to manage this when you start to look at that budget, that's soon gonna disappear.
1:06:37
SPEAKER_02: And I did say that when I went back to the agency.
1:06:38
SPEAKER_02: I sort of went, if you want four different models and you want that kind of those kind of usage rights, the budget isn't massive for for that.
1:06:46
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, went back to them because I don't think they've really taken that into account.
1:06:50
SPEAKER_02: So I thought I don't know why that what they've been thinking of.
1:06:52
SPEAKER_02: Um, but I sort of said, look, you know, if you're gonna go through an agency, you know, like through a professional model modeling agency, these are the fees that you're looking at.
1:07:01
SPEAKER_02: Because I wrote to an agency that I know, modelling agency, and went, can you give me a quote for this usage for four models?
1:07:07
SPEAKER_02: You know, kind of gave them the demographics of what they were looking for.
1:07:10
SPEAKER_02: Went back to uh client and they were like, Oh, that's quite expensive.
1:07:14
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, it's gonna be, it's gonna be.
1:07:17
SPEAKER_02: These people have got to get paid.
1:07:18
SPEAKER_02: Um, so uh it went back and forth and it was annoying me because I sort of I had two dates penciled, like two days, where I was like, is this happening or not?
1:07:28
SPEAKER_02: I mean, because I had some other, you know, bigger jobs that I kind of wanted to book in.
1:07:32
SPEAKER_02: So I sort of went back to them.
1:07:33
SPEAKER_02: I said, Look, I'm I'm sorry to push on this, but do you know if this is happening or not?
1:07:37
SPEAKER_02: Because I would really do with having those dates back if it's not going to.
1:07:40
SPEAKER_02: And she said, Oh, yes, sorry, Hannah, we were waiting to cut here back.
1:07:43
SPEAKER_02: The clients decided that they're actually going to go with AI.
1:07:47
SPEAKER_02: So I kind of went and I she said, We tr we tried, we tried to discourage them from doing so because of course what they have to write on the advert that this image is not real, this person is not real.
1:07:58
SPEAKER_02: But but from a business point of view, I kind of get it.
1:08:03
SPEAKER_02: And I I kind of get the fact from them having to go, we've got to find four models that are exactly how we want them to be, because they were very specific.
1:08:15
SPEAKER_02: The budget and the control and the licensing, the you know, the the contracts, making sure their word perfect, nothing's gone wrong, etc.
1:08:24
SPEAKER_02: Like that is so much more effort.
1:08:27
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I know what I would rather have happened, I would much rather have been doing this with real people and it actually happening.
1:08:33
David McClelland: But I mean a real budget as well.
1:08:35
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
1:08:35
SPEAKER_02: Well, that would have been a good start, wouldn't it?
1:08:37
SPEAKER_02: But you can see, and then I could see, I was like, well, yeah, of course, I kind of get that they're just gonna go get me a man in his 40s between 42 and 45, smiling, holding or whatever it is on a blue background, whatever, you know, and then bam, AI is gonna come up with it, but I don't have to pay that person anything because they don't exist.
1:09:01
SPEAKER_02: And so it's that is a is a shame.
1:09:05
SPEAKER_02: And that's where I want I worry for the models and the commercial side of our work because that was the first time that I'd seen that in reality happen.
1:09:14
SPEAKER_02: You you worry that it might happen, but that was the first time I'd heard of it, I'd heard about the people saying to me, Oh yeah, like Adidas have been doing this for years, and you know, this this campaign was AI, this was AI, and you're thinking, Yeah, but was it really, or is this just somebody saying that?
1:09:30
SPEAKER_02: But this is when an actual job with money came in to quote for and looking at all the details, just went, sorry, we're gonna we're we're gonna do it this way because basically it's just easier for us to do it, and we can do it in a smaller, a shorter time frame.
1:09:46
SPEAKER_02: We haven't got to consider makeup artists we haven't got to consider nail text, we haven't got to consider stylist, photographer, usage rights, bloody bloody blur models.
1:09:54
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Well, you can kind of see when they've got this and that, why how and why they're gonna make that decision.
1:10:00
SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying I feel that is the right decision, but I'm saying if you've got somebody there going easy, difficult, what are people gonna do?
1:10:08
SPEAKER_02: We know people will take the easiest route.
1:10:10
SPEAKER_02: And that unfortunately is the first time I've seen the commercial side of things play out in such a way that we're being replaced.
1:10:17
SPEAKER_02: That's the first time.
1:10:18
David McClelland: And I guess in terms of what happens next, they all have some KPIs against the success or otherwise of that campaign.
1:10:25
David McClelland: You know, what were those or was the output from the AI for from the uh AI shoot, was there a connection, coming back to that word again, between the audience and between the creative there?
1:10:39
David McClelland: And if it was there, then great, if it had the desired outcomes, the calls to actions and all the rest of that sort of stuff, then they'll do it again.
1:10:46
David McClelland: If it didn't, however, if it whatever it didn't work, if there wasn't that authenticity, that authentic connection, something which can be difficult to put your finger on sometimes, then they'll go, yeah, didn't quite work yet.
1:10:59
David McClelland: Maybe the AI is not quite there.
1:11:01
David McClelland: Let's go back and test it against a real photographer with real models, with real connection, with real budget and and with real creative.
1:11:10
David McClelland: And that's it.
1:11:11
David McClelland: I I guess you'll you'll find the right projects for the right budgets ultimately.
1:11:15
David McClelland: But ultimately, if those things aren't getting the right, the the right results, then I guess it's your job to make sure that your work does create those right results consistently every time so that you are putting the AIs out of business.
1:11:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's a weird one because I was thinking this to myself, and you know, you kind of think about the industry because I think uh, you know, we were you know, my Seth and my other half were speaking, and we sort of went, where are we gonna be in 10 years?
1:11:39
SPEAKER_02: Are we gonna be replaced?
1:11:41
SPEAKER_02: Do we, you know, should is this that we should start thinking about other things?
1:11:44
SPEAKER_02: And then I thought, well, hold on a second.
1:11:47
SPEAKER_02: You have got, yeah, a person is a person is a person.
1:11:50
SPEAKER_02: If I'm a portrait photographer, you know, if I went and typed into AI, go and make Hannah look like Hannah, it's still not there.
1:12:02
SPEAKER_02: Like it's still gonna be a little bit weird, you know.
1:12:04
SPEAKER_02: There's still, I mean, even for a laugh the other week I did some um what did I do?
1:12:10
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I did some promo shots for a theatre for um Great Gatsby.
1:12:14
SPEAKER_02: It's um everything was lovely, everything was sorted out.
1:12:17
SPEAKER_02: And um, my other half to he went, Oh my gosh, is it that looks like a Netflix poster?
1:12:20
SPEAKER_02: That actually looks exactly like a Netflix poster.
1:12:23
SPEAKER_02: And uh he said, You just put a logo down there, that's what it would look like.
1:12:26
SPEAKER_02: I said, you know what, for a laugh, let's stick it into Chat GBT and go make this into a Netflix poster.
1:12:31
SPEAKER_02: Sure enough, it did, but it even the real people that we put in, it still decided it wanted to alter their faces slightly, so they ended up looking weird.
1:12:40
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think there's a few things that I've seen.
1:12:43
SPEAKER_02: I saw an advert this morning, somebody hiring for um uh um waiting staff, and uh I was like, that is a hundred percent AI, those two people that are in that.
1:12:53
SPEAKER_02: I was like, that they're not that's not real.
1:12:55
SPEAKER_02: So I think until it gets to the point, I think people are kind of largely wising up to when they can see something that's AI.
1:13:05
SPEAKER_02: But I'm thinking, you know, if David comes to me for a headshot or needs a photo of himself, you what what are you gonna do?
1:13:13
SPEAKER_02: Do you put a photo of you into Chat GPT and say, make me in, make this a portrait of me or something?
1:13:19
SPEAKER_02: It's still gonna probably do something weird.
1:13:22
SPEAKER_02: It might get there, you might be lucky, but chances are you probably just need a good picture of you actually looking like you that isn't AI generated.
1:13:31
SPEAKER_02: Other things, like we say, the commercial side of things, as my story we've just gone over, has indicated that that might be more of a problem.
1:13:40
SPEAKER_02: But weddings, I think, are still safe because you still want to document those two people getting married, you know.
1:13:45
SPEAKER_02: That's it's not like somebody else is gonna step in.
1:13:47
SPEAKER_02: And same with kids, suddenly we're not gonna start bringing in kids that aren't getting our own kids that we're gonna put on the wall.
1:13:53
SPEAKER_02: So there is an element that I hope that within portrait photography and certain, you know, certain genres, it's gonna still stand up because ultimately it's the people, it's the photos of the person that we want to see, not an AI-generated version.
1:14:06
SPEAKER_02: So I hope we've still got a bit of time left.
1:14:09
David McClelland: And this takes us all the way back to the beginning of our conversation today, where you were talking about the type of work that you specialise in and particularly the type of portraiture.
1:14:18
David McClelland: And you know, we we've spoken on this show to any number of fashion and beauty portrait photographers who do some and you know their names, but they do some weird and wonderful things with lighting and with makeup and with costume, and it's beautiful, but I almost feel as though there are ways in which that is easier to disrupt than the kind of work that you do where you are dealing with a person, you whether it's repertage-style stuff, you know, you mentioned weddings and and babies, you're capturing how somebody felt at the moment when that shutter was was was pressed, or you're you're capturing some truth about themselves in that moment.
1:14:57
David McClelland: That sort of stuff is very, very difficult to replicate because often the audience for that is the person themselves.
1:15:03
David McClelland: I don't like looking at synthetic versions of myself.
1:15:06
David McClelland: I've tried all that stuff as well.
1:15:07
David McClelland: I had a photograph taken of me at an event a couple of years, no, last year, and I think the photographer had used some AI touch-up thing because they were just taking photographs of speakers and delegates at this event.
1:15:20
David McClelland: I got the photo back, and I'm not gonna lie, I felt quite sick in my stomach because, well, for people who are listening and have never seen my face before, they may not know that I had got a big dimple, hereditary genetic dimple in my chin.
1:15:36
David McClelland: Now, whatever AI I presume was retouching these photos of me, it decided to remove the dimple in my chin.
1:15:45
David McClelland: And when I yeah, right.
1:15:47
David McClelland: When I saw that image, I had a visceral physical reaction to it.
1:15:51
David McClelland: Not that I'm particularly vain, I'm not really vain at all.
1:15:54
David McClelland: You you you take me as I come, frankly.
1:15:57
David McClelland: But just seeing that it's that kind of uncanny valley response that we have when something's close but not quite right, we know it, and it hits us in a weird human sort of way.
1:16:07
David McClelland: Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:16:09
David McClelland: So I think that's it, it it was really, really weird.
1:16:12
David McClelland: I've still got the photo somewhere, but I'm a bit scared to look at it.
1:16:14
SPEAKER_02: Uncomfortable, yeah.
1:16:15
SPEAKER_02: And also the thing that I hate about that as well, and I I still I always say this is that as and that's why I did mention when we were talking about retouching, these are things I always talk about removing the things that we've asked to be removed or things that are not permanent, you know, like it's the spot, it's the bags under the eyes that perhaps if you'd had a couple more hours' sleep, would you know the following week wouldn't have been there?
1:16:38
SPEAKER_02: But like scars, moles, anything like they're part of who people are.
1:16:44
SPEAKER_02: You know, I I don't know, I just I would never take that away unless somebody asked me to, and even then I would kick back and sort of say, You but you are you sure you want this taken away?
1:16:54
SPEAKER_02: Because that's how you are.
1:16:55
SPEAKER_02: And hilarious that you mentioned the dimple in your chin, something that you go straight to, something that I have never I've been staring at this screen for the last what nearly an hour.
1:17:03
SPEAKER_02: I haven't like I wouldn't notice that at all.
1:17:05
SPEAKER_02: It's just you know, but we we know and we go to it.
1:17:09
SPEAKER_02: So of course, as you say, the first thing you did is went, Oh, that's not there, and that makes you feel weird.
1:17:14
David McClelland: Yeah, right.
1:17:15
David McClelland: Listen, Hannah, it has been great to chat with you for around about an hour now.
1:17:20
David McClelland: Yeah, uh, and it's been great to talk about connection.
1:17:23
David McClelland: I I've really enjoyed hearing about your work uh and about your connection with your well, with your public as well, because uh things that we haven't spoken about, and maybe we'll have an opportunity about uh to talk about those in the future is about you working on the other side of the lens as well.
1:17:39
David McClelland: And how on earth do you find time to do all of the education work that you do?
1:17:43
David McClelland: But for now, Hannah Cousins, thank you so much for joining us on the Photography and Video Show podcast.
1:17:48
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
1:17:49
SPEAKER_02: It's been a pleasure to talk to you, David, as always.
1:17:51
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
1:17:55
David McClelland: And a big thanks to Hannah Cousins for joining us on the show.
1:17:58
David McClelland: We'll pop her website and her socials in the podcast show notes.
1:18:02
David McClelland: And that is almost all for this month.
1:18:05
David McClelland: A reminder that the in-person photography and video show returns to the NEC in Birmingham.
1:18:10
David McClelland: That's right, back in Birmingham.
1:18:12
David McClelland: Between the 14th and the 17th of March 2026, head over to photography show.com for more details as they get announced.
1:18:20
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1:18:27
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1:18:30
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1:18:34
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1:18:37
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1:18:42
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1:18:47
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1:18:50
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1:19:01
David McClelland: We'll be back on the first Thursday of next month with more photography and video news in chat.
1:19:07
David McClelland: The first Thursday of September.
1:19:09
David McClelland: That's um it's an early one.
1:19:10
David McClelland: It's Thursday, the 4th of September, so we better get our skates on and get that show uh ready for you.
1:19:15
David McClelland: But there'll be lots to talk about.
1:19:17
David McClelland: I've got a really exciting uh feature guest lined up for that one.
1:19:21
David McClelland: But until then, from all of us here, bye bye.