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3 Free Agent Targets For The St. Louis Cardinals This Offseason · Cardinal Territory: A St. Louis Cardinals Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Hello, everybody, and welcome to another edition of Cardinal Territory.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Jim Hayes with Kyle Gibson and Lance Lynn, who's already
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: in a mood and dropping F-bombs.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: Look, just a reminder.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: No, I did not. Just a reminder, this is not
• 0:24
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• 0:26
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• 0:31
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• 0:34
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• 0:38
  Speaker 1: And you can look like Lance, who has some of
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: the merch he doesn't wear, and Kyle Gibson, who also
• 0:43
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• 0:46
  Speaker 1: go to FoulTerritoryShop.com or hit the QR code. All right, gentlemen.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: This Cardinal rebuild, right, has kind of taken root in
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: a couple of ways. One, Haim has acquired a lot
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: of young talent and is hoping to develop that young
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: talent in minor league level. And the other part is
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: giving young, talented players that were already here a pathway
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: to develop, and we've seen some of that. There is
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: also another way to help in the rebuild, and that
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: would be via free agency. Now, the Cardinals have some
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: areas of need, there's no question. I think before we
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: discuss our three picks of the free agents the Cardinals
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: should look at, we should figure out the need. And
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: I'm going to start Because I do a podcast with
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: two veteran pitchers who have told me time and time
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: again that you need a veteran pitcher in the rotation. So, yes,
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: they have bullpen needs. Yes, there's no question. But I
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: think a veteran in the rotation gives them depth and
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: also leadership, and I'm on board with that. The other stuff,
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: third base, center field, I don't think the Cardinals are
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: going to spend a ton of money in free agency.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: They're looking for short-term contracts. Or if they spend some money, guys,
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: they could flip at the deadline if they're not where
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: they want to be. I don't think there's anything out
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: there better than what you have. So I'm going to
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: start with starting pitching is a good place to try
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: to land a free agent. Gentlemen, your thoughts? I'm going
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: to go with Lance first because, as you know, Kyle,
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: he's ready to go.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: Okay, so you want to go starting pitchers first. Are
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: we going to go with the three?
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: No, no, no.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: Or are we going to do what we.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: Think that we should do? I think they need one
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: starting pitcher, no doubt about, if we're going to pick.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: I'm just picking because I don't think they're going to
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: spend a lot of money on free agents. I think
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: they might get one or two. So I'm putting my
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: guys I want in either starting or bullpen.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: You're putting $ 10 to $ 12 million in a starting pitcher
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: is what you're going to do. That's one of the
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: things you're going to do a la– May from last year.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: That's the move we're making. Guy you can flip, a
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: guy you can get on a two-year deal. Well, I mean,
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: you got him on a one-year deal with an option.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: And then now he should go back on the market
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: for probably around the same or less if you're going
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: to go that route. And then there's multiple guys that
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: are in that route, whether you want prove it deal. But,
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm looking at the Otherworld series right now.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: I'm watching Freddy Peralta kind of come back into his
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: own after a bad regular season. And he's always been
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: a top. starting rotation guy. If he's willing to take
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: a one-year or a two-year build your value back up,
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: then that's a guy that I would go after just
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: because of the certain different things I've seen in the
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: postseason and we've seen over his career. I think he
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: went to New York. There's something about the Mets right
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: now where you go there and you just get worse.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: He went back to Tampa and he figured it out again.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: So I think there'll be more people call him then
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: and give him too much money or too many years
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: that the Cardinals won't. So if you're going to go
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: two to three years, it's somebody like that. If you're
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: going to go one, then it's May or maybe Bieber
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: on a, on a prove it deal after he's been
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: unhealthy and then, or Sorka. So, yeah, I mean, if
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: you're going starting pitcher, those are my, one-year guys or
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: two-year guys I'd go after.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: Kyle, so do we agree like that's if you're Heim
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: and you decide you're going to dip your toe in
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: the free agent market, starting pitching is where you would
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: probably start?
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: I don't know. I mean, I think it just depends
• 4:41
  Speaker 4: on what they want to do.
• 4:42
  Speaker 5: You know, if you want to see if you can
• 4:45
  Speaker 5: improve upon your record and push for the playoffs, then yes,
• 4:50
  Speaker 5: I think you'd go get a starting pitcher. I mean,
• 4:53
  Speaker 5: I think we would probably all agree that adding a
• 4:57
  Speaker 5: little bit of experience to that group would be good.
• 5:00
  Speaker 5: I personally don't necessarily know they're going to do that,
• 5:03
  Speaker 5: and I don't know if they're going to do that
• 5:04
  Speaker 5: before this lockout starts as well. So I probably would
• 5:10
  Speaker 5: go away from a starting pitcher. I don't think Freddie
• 5:14
  Speaker 5: Peralta is going to do a one- or two-year prove-it deal.
• 5:17
  Speaker 5: I think he has just pitched himself back to his
• 5:21
  Speaker 5: Milwaukee numbers and he will get a five plus and
• 5:27
  Speaker 5: 25 to 30 a year. That's he he's done that
• 5:31
  Speaker 5: for himself. I don't think that's, I don't think that's
• 5:33
  Speaker 5: going to be a question in my mind. Um, I
• 5:36
  Speaker 5: do think there's some interesting possibilities here. Um, you know,
• 5:41
  Speaker 5: as I'm looking at, you know, just the free agent list, um,
• 5:45
  Speaker 5: a guy like Walker Bueller is interesting. Um, I do
• 5:49
  Speaker 5: agree with Bieber. Bassett, I think there's some guys here
• 5:53
  Speaker 5: that are interesting. If you want to do a couple years,
• 5:57
  Speaker 5: I think there's a guy like Shota, but I think
• 5:59
  Speaker 5: he's going to be on a longer deal as well.
• 6:03
  Speaker 5: So I'm not sure about that. I would probably stay
• 6:08
  Speaker 5: away from starting pitchers. At least I think they're going to.
• 6:11
  Speaker 5: I think as I counted, there's eight. And then if
• 6:15
  Speaker 5: you include Doyle, we got nine good options for this
• 6:18
  Speaker 5: rotation right now. I would probably stick with those guys
• 6:23
  Speaker 5: and I would go get three bullpen guys because I
• 6:27
  Speaker 5: think for that 12 or so to 15 that you're
• 6:31
  Speaker 5: going to spend on that starter, if you're going to
• 6:33
  Speaker 5: get one that is good, then I think you could
• 6:37
  Speaker 5: almost get a couple relievers for that cost.
• 6:42
  Speaker 4: That's just me.
• 6:43
  Speaker 5: I'd probably get a lefty and I'd get two righties
• 6:46
  Speaker 5: and I would fortify the bullpen to so that my
• 6:49
  Speaker 5: young starters, when they do have a couple games in
• 6:52
  Speaker 5: a row here, where we're five into the sixth inning,
• 6:56
  Speaker 5: we're not wearing it, we're not the back end of
• 6:58
  Speaker 5: the bullpen, and I think you're probably looking at fortifying
• 7:01
  Speaker 5: a bullpen that, you know, might have been one of
• 7:04
  Speaker 5: the weak spots at times, and is going to steal
• 7:08
  Speaker 5: some wins for you, because I think your offense is
• 7:10
  Speaker 5: going to be better, and with a good defense, so
• 7:14
  Speaker 5: That's probably the direction I would go is adding two
• 7:16
  Speaker 5: or three arms and probably calling it good because I
• 7:19
  Speaker 5: don't know that there's any position players or starters I
• 7:21
  Speaker 5: want to block right now.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: So I'm flabbergasted. I'm not opposed to getting three relievers.
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: The question is, which three relievers would you go after?
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: Because I think, in my opinion, with the lockout and
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: all that, if you can shore up something like that
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: because the Cardinals– They don't need starters. They don't need
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: position players technically, right? They need bullpen arms. They will
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: need back-end bullpen marks if they want to be relevant
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: next year. And I think they have the players, starters,
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: and relievers to be relevant. Or starters and starting pitchers
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: and position players to be relevant. So which three arms
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: do you go after and get it done before the lockout?
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: So then post-lockout, we all see this. There's guys that
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: are going to be scrambling for jobs. And that's when
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: you snake a guy. Snake a starting pitcher for a
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: one-year deal. snake a outfielder if you need an outfield
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: bat or something like that, or a third baseman, something
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: like that. So my question is, which three relievers do
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: you just go get right now and say, all right,
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: that's done. I'm going to wait until after the lockout,
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: and then I'm going to see how I can just
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: steal somebody, and the next thing you know, we're right there.
• 8:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: Can I wait? Hold on, hold on. No, you're out.
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: This is our show. I'm flabbergasted. I have said through this,
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: you guys talked about the importance of having a veteran
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: in the starting rotation.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: That's always doable. There's veterans there until two years after
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: they retire because they just don't sign until the end.
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: And lockouts, veterans aren't going to sign before lockouts. So
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: we changed the whole narrative of your question because that's
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: what Kyle does, and I love that about him, is
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: the lockout has changed the version of this, right? If
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: you're looking at the lockout, you're looking at when's the
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: lockout date?
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: December 2nd.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah. All right. So what can you do before then
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: that you know you need and you have to have?
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: You have eight-ish starting pitchers that you can deal with
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: being in your rotation. You have a whole lineup of
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: people and young people in AAA that you can be
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: okay with, right? You are not okay with the bullpen.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: right now we are just not if we wanted and
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: just not only for their sake but just the kids
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: that are in the bullpen to slot them down maybe
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: in any or a different spot to let them grow
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: that's what you need so i think when we're looking
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: at it what's pre-lockout three players we need it's relievers,
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: and then we'll go from there.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: Okay, I got a guy. I like A.J.
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: Mentor.
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: Okay, 33-year-old guy. He's made some money. I don't know
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: if they want to– because it's tough. You're not going
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: to spend a lot if you're the Cardinals because, look,
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: let's face it, relievers have a shelf life, though. Mentor's
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: done it for a long time, 33-year-old lefty. I like
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: that guy a lot. I like Yarborough a lot. That guy,
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: another lefty, little younger, really good season last year. Those
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: are two guys that I would start looking at just
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: so I can quiet Lance and say, see, I have
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: names for bullpen. Because let's be honest, their bullpen was
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: near the bottom of the National League last year. It
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: was the one area that needed help, and they have
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: an opportunity to fix it. However... I wanted to start
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: with starter because I thought these guys are going to
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: say we need a veteran starter. Damn it.
• 10:54
  Speaker 4: Well, yeah, we do. We do.
• 10:56
  Speaker 5: But I don't see that being the way this goes personally, right?
• 11:03
  Speaker 5: And if they are not going for the playoffs in 2027,
• 11:07
  Speaker 5: which by all reports they're not, at least going for
• 11:13
  Speaker 5: like really pushing their eggs all in, all the chips
• 11:16
  Speaker 5: all in, then they're not. So if that's the case,
• 11:19
  Speaker 5: then you get relievers that you're able to trade and
• 11:24
  Speaker 5: do that.
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: And those are tradable pieces.
• 11:26
  Speaker 5: All right, so I'm looking at a couple lefties. If
• 11:29
  Speaker 5: I'm going for, I'm probably going to do one lefty
• 11:31
  Speaker 5: and two righties if I had to pick. And I'm
• 11:35
  Speaker 5: going to pick some former teammates here because I know
• 11:37
  Speaker 5: who they are and I know what they're going to
• 11:39
  Speaker 5: bring to the table. A guy who's had on and
• 11:42
  Speaker 5: off the last couple years but can really pitch, Has
• 11:45
  Speaker 5: a good fastball and a changeup as well that I
• 11:49
  Speaker 5: think plays really well in St. Louis because of a
• 11:51
  Speaker 5: little bit bigger park. Keegan Aiken is a lefty that
• 11:55
  Speaker 5: Cardinals fans aren't going to know. But three of the
• 11:57
  Speaker 5: last four years, I believe, has had a sub 3-7
• 12:01
  Speaker 5: and a rubber arm. Really, he's good. I would go
• 12:05
  Speaker 5: Keegan Aiken. Everybody knows the name Andrew Kittredge. I don't
• 12:09
  Speaker 5: know what Kitt's looking for. He's, you know, going to
• 12:12
  Speaker 5: be 37. probably looking to compete in the playoffs. So
• 12:15
  Speaker 5: maybe you can't bring him in. So maybe that's not
• 12:18
  Speaker 5: a possibility. I have seen, I think somebody came out with,
• 12:23
  Speaker 5: with a report about Jason Adam. I think Jason Adams
• 12:26
  Speaker 5: is going to get a three or four year deal.
• 12:28
  Speaker 5: I think the guy, I know he's 35, but he's
• 12:30
  Speaker 5: going to get a multi-year deal. I would do that
• 12:32
  Speaker 5: because I think he's the type of player in the
• 12:35
  Speaker 5: bullpen for the Cardinals. So I don't necessarily know that
• 12:38
  Speaker 5: that is going to be an option. But a guy
• 12:40
  Speaker 5: that struggled a little bit this year who has a
• 12:42
  Speaker 5: good track record will be Ryan Thompson, a rider that's
• 12:45
  Speaker 5: been on the West Coast. So those are the type
• 12:48
  Speaker 5: of bullpen guys I would go after. Yeah, I mean,
• 12:50
  Speaker 5: I'm looking at this list. You can go after a
• 12:53
  Speaker 5: Trinan or a Bednar or something like that. Pete Fairbanks,
• 12:57
  Speaker 5: a St. Louis guy, might be on a one-year deal
• 12:59
  Speaker 5: trying to improve some value. But yeah, those are the
• 13:03
  Speaker 5: three or four names I would go after and see
• 13:07
  Speaker 5: if you can get them for a total. of $ 12
• 13:09
  Speaker 5: million to $ 15 million and really make the back end
• 13:14
  Speaker 5: of the bullpen better. And then let these young starters
• 13:17
  Speaker 5: do their thing because you've got eight or nine of them,
• 13:19
  Speaker 5: including Graceffo, that I think are going to be needing innings.
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: All right. I don't think you're going to get Bednar
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: for cheap, but I like Fairbanks, right? I think you
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: might be able to get that guy. He's nasty when
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: he's right.
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're looking at a guy coming off of
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: surgery in Fairbanks where you might get him for a
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: one-year contract. Prove it, deal. And then that goes in
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: where I was thinking with Evan Phillips coming from L.A.
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: He's in his second year removed from surgery and all that.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: I think he's a guy that's perfect for that back end.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: Bullpen guy. Obviously a former teammate of mine, too. Like
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: you say, that fits what Dusty and Oliver would be
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: about on how they... go about preparing and doing things
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: like that. So I could get on board with that.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: And then I'm looking at lefties. I'm looking at, if
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: you're looking at a lefty, in my opinion, you're looking
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: at a guy that you can put in as a,
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: that can get you seventh or eighth or close if
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: need be like high leverage guy. I mean, it would
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: be awesome if we could get Jojo back. That would be,
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: I think, huge, not only for the just rapport that
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: he's had in St. Louis, but also uh, you know,
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: just for that bullpen, they know him and all that. Um,
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: but I don't think he might be too expensive. So
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go with like a, maybe Alvarado. That
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: might be a, uh, a prove it deal for a
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: lefty that has stuff.
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: I love the idea of the Yarbrough's and, and stuff
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: like that, but those are more swing men to inning.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: They're not, they get outs, but they're not like, look at,
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: look at me, put them in the seventh, eighth inning role,
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: in my opinion. So, That's where I'm at on those guys.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: I think you can find young lefties to use as
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: multi-inning swingman type as your second lefty. I think you
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: need a lefty that you can plan in in the seventh,
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: eighth inning with stuff. So then I'm going to go
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: Alvarado and approve it deal after that. So what did
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: I say? Phillips, Alvarado, and Fairbanks. Those are my three receivers.
• 15:21
  Speaker 5: And Alvarado, I mean, you know, if you take a
• 15:24
  Speaker 5: look at his numbers, you know, he's given up some
• 15:26
  Speaker 5: hits this year, but his issue is walks. So if
• 15:29
  Speaker 5: you can cut down the walks, he's got over a
• 15:31
  Speaker 5: strikeout printing basically.
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: For his career. You know, you.
• 15:35
  Speaker 5: Cut down the walks, you're looking at a guy that,
• 15:37
  Speaker 5: you know, takes that whip down and, you know, the
• 15:39
  Speaker 5: ERA comes down.
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: And, you know, some of those runs are probably inherited runners.
• 15:43
  Speaker 5: I know he goes on some streaks where, you know,
• 15:45
  Speaker 5: being his teammate, you know, He throws 100 miles an hour,
• 15:48
  Speaker 5: and his stuff moves a lot. And sometimes it's hard
• 15:50
  Speaker 5: to keep it in the strike zone. So I understand
• 15:54
  Speaker 5: kind of some of his struggles, just seeing him firsthand.
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: But great guy.
• 15:59
  Speaker 5: I know he had the suspension as well, so we'll
• 16:04
  Speaker 5: see how that goes. But he'd be a good prove-it deal.
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: He would.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: We're talking free agency and what the Cardinals may possibly do.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: You're watching Cardinal Territory. on the Fowl Territory Network.
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: Okay, Kratzy, here we are again, man. How many times
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: do we have to tell people to get the best
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: tickets in the house? Where do we got to go?
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: We got to go to SeatGeek. It's been worth it
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: so many times, so many years. The green light will
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: let you know when it is time to go and
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: the best seats available. The red will let you know
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: if it's not the best. Kratzy, tell them how easy
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: it is.
• 16:40
  Speaker 6: Todd, I know it's easy, but I'm looking for the
• 16:42
  Speaker 6: deals because that's what I do. Even so much, like
• 16:46
  Speaker 6: we're getting such a good deal, I want you to
• 16:47
  Speaker 6: come across the river and we'll go to a Sixers
• 16:50
  Speaker 6: game together. I don't know where to sit in the stadium,
• 16:53
  Speaker 6: but it'll let me know that it's a perfect view
• 16:55
  Speaker 6: because I'm not a big NBA fan, but I gotta
• 16:58
  Speaker 6: go see the Sixers play with LeBron and the boys.
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: And of course I have a code for you all.
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: You can use code TERRITORY10 for 10% off your next
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: set of tickets at SeatGeek. That's 10% of all tickets
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: with promo code TERRITORY10. Make sure you click the link
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: in the description to download the app and have the
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: code automatically added to your account so you can use
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: it later.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: One of the questions I think the Cardinals have to
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: have to figure out as they try to navigate the
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: bullpen is Libby a starter or do you move them
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: back to the bullpen? We've talked about it quite a
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: few times on this podcast. We all love Libby, but
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: let's face it. His numbers were better out of the bullpen.
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: And if that's now the team's, glaring weakness maybe they
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: look at moving him back to the bullpen where he
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: thrived Lance is that something you think the Cardinals should consider.
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: Well here's the only way you consider that if you
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: sign two starters that are better than him because to
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: be honest with you his underlying numbers he's your he
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: might be your best stuff wise starter so that's where
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: we're at you can't run a full season with guys
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: that can't strike out nine and be an elite rotation Now,
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: you can get away with it if you have multiple
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: guys that do the things they do, but Libby, in
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: the sense of things, is your best stuff-wise starting pitcher. So, no,
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: unless you get two guys that are your one and two,
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: and then Palante, McGreevy, Leahy, Quinn start, you know, go
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: in after that, then, yeah, you can think about, okay,
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: then Libby turns into your then Libby turns into your seventh,
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: eighth inning setup guy. And then you, but it's like, Hey,
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: you can get Alvarado for, say you get Alvarado for
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: three to $ 5 million, then Libby's a starter. But if
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: you've got to pay $ 10 million for your lefty, Libby
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: might be a reliever. And then you get a starter
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: that is in the $ 10 million range. And you, you're,
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: you're kind of just figuring out which mathematic equation you
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: want and which one's going to be better. But Libby
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: in all accounts is your best stuff wise starting pitcher.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: So it's hard to move him to the bullpen when you,
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: are still looking for a one or two in your rotation.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: What do you think, Kyle?
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: That's tough.
• 19:19
  Speaker 5: I mean, he's a super two, three and 144 is
• 19:23
  Speaker 5: what it looks like service time. So, I mean, you
• 19:28
  Speaker 5: got three, four. You got so much control of this guy.
• 19:33
  Speaker 5: Which is a good thing, right? I agree with Lance.
• 19:36
  Speaker 5: He's got good stuff. So I think now you just
• 19:39
  Speaker 5: kind of have to make a decision here. In my mind,
• 19:42
  Speaker 5: I think he's gone back and forth enough um between
• 19:45
  Speaker 5: bullpen and starting uh i think you gotta you gotta
• 19:48
  Speaker 5: kind of stop that in my opinion um do i
• 19:53
  Speaker 5: think he has stuff to be a starter yes i
• 19:55
  Speaker 5: do believe it um do i think maybe i haven't
• 19:59
  Speaker 5: dug into the numbers so this is i'm sure what
• 20:01
  Speaker 5: dusty julio and the staff is going to be looking
• 20:03
  Speaker 5: at like all right what do we do with libby
• 20:05
  Speaker 5: how can we get the best out of a starter
• 20:07
  Speaker 5: and maybe if it's not sure, let's go to the bullpen,
• 20:10
  Speaker 5: and he's a swing man, and this is what he.
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: Makes a career on. And that's not a bad thing, right?
• 20:16
  Speaker 5: Like, I mean, he has the ability to be really,
• 20:19
  Speaker 5: really nasty for an inning or two, and I think
• 20:20
  Speaker 5: that's a weapon for really good teams.
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: So, yeah, I think Lance hit it there.
• 20:27
  Speaker 5: If you're going to sign a starter, then, you know,
• 20:29
  Speaker 5: Libby might be able to be that lefty in the bullpen,
• 20:31
  Speaker 5: and you don't go sign that lefty.
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: So, yeah.
• 20:37
  Speaker 5: But I think this is the year where you've got
• 20:39
  Speaker 5: to pick one or the other. And I would not
• 20:42
  Speaker 5: want to trade Libby, but I think there's going to
• 20:45
  Speaker 5: be teams that see that strikeout per inning. And he
• 20:48
  Speaker 5: would be, I don't know, I can't say this for certain,
• 20:52
  Speaker 5: but if I'm another team and I'm looking at Libby's
• 20:55
  Speaker 5: peripherals like Lance just said, that's a guy that you
• 20:57
  Speaker 5: get a lot of control with. Probably taking a chance
• 21:00
  Speaker 5: on a trade on Matthew Libertor and putting him in
• 21:03
  Speaker 5: my rotation if I feel like I have a good plan.
• 21:06
  Speaker 5: to uh help limit some of the hits and you
• 21:09
  Speaker 5: know take that era down.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: I think we all agree libby has great stuff so
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: does riley o'brien who was an all-star last year bunch
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: of saves right um and look good but there were
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: some points where you wondered about it right at toward
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: the end he wore down a little bit so how
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: do you think the cardinals handle that lance going in
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: are they just At spring training, saying you're the closer
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: and let's see how it goes and then probably have
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: a plan B waiting in the wings somewhere. How do
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: you think the Cardinals handle Riley?
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: I think we've kind of hit the nail on the
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: head on what they should do. Bring him some help.
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: It's his job to lose, I guess, because of what
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: he did last year and the stuff he has. But
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: when you put a full season of you get every
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: close or you get every situation– it wears on you
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: as the season goes on. He'll be better for it
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: next year because it was his first time doing it.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: And if you give him some help, whereas the season
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: goes on, he doesn't have to go three out of
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: five and things like that. And you get a guy
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: that you can trust to cover that ninth inning or
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: maybe two guys. Next thing you know, your team's fresh
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: at the end of the year. And if you want
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: to make the playoffs... You have to have your back
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: end rolling at the end of the year, and you
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: do that by making sure that they don't get used
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: too much as the season goes on. I think in
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: the last couple of years, you're looking at JoJo and
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: then Helsley, and then you had JoJo, and then you
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: had Riley. You have to have a third option or
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: even a fourth option as the year goes on, or
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: you're just going to bury those bullpen arms as the
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: year goes on. And they're going to go in stretches
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: of being used too much, especially if you only have
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: one and two options. There's nothing worse than a manager
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: looking up being like, man, I've used this guy two
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: of the last three, but I got it and we're
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: trying to win the game. We got an off day tomorrow.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: You need to have another guy so you can give
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: him that extra day or extra two days and have
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: a guy that will win you that game or close
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: that game out for you. So this season gets shorter
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: for these guys because they don't feel like they're being
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: used too much. And then they're fresh at the end
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: of the year. So get him some help. Get him
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: two guys that can help him close some games. But also, hey,
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: we know you can do it. You're our guy. But
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: when you need a breather, we got you. We're not
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: going to bury you.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: What do you think, Kyle? And by the way, I
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: think Gastelum is that guy. Gastelum. I think he's that guy.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: He really came on.
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: At the end.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: And I love what I saw. I agree with you.
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: I think he has great stuff. But you're looking at, okay,
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: so you have him and Riley. You still need three
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: other guys because– Graceffo's a two-inning swing guy, and I
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: know you want to start him, but there's already eight starters,
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: so he's going to have to be in there. When
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: it's all said and done, yes, you have some of
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: the pieces, but the pieces that you need to add
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: that will take a breather from these guys, yes, he
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: had a great year. He did, but he didn't have
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: a full year in the big leagues. Next year, they're
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: going to figure him out a little bit. He figured
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: out how to use his pitches to his advantage. They're
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: going to start figuring out how he uses his pitches,
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: and he's going to have to do another little regroup
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: as the year goes on because that's how the game works.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: What do you think, Kyle?
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: All right.
• 24:35
  Speaker 5: I'm just– I mean, I know you guys love when
• 24:39
  Speaker 5: I do this. I'm sure the people that listen love
• 24:41
  Speaker 5: when I do this.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: Let's do it.
• 24:43
  Speaker 5: You have one outing for Riley O'Brien that took him
• 24:47
  Speaker 5: from a 3-2 ERA to a 4 ERA. when he
• 24:51
  Speaker 5: gave up six runs against the Phillies, all right? Six
• 24:54
  Speaker 5: runs in. 2 innings, and he goes down to 23
• 24:58
  Speaker 5: runs over 63 innings. My math tells me that's just
• 25:01
  Speaker 5: over a three, all right? And then he has a
• 25:04
  Speaker 5: couple other outings where he gave up, you know, two
• 25:06
  Speaker 5: runs in. 1. I mean, he just, he had a
• 25:10
  Speaker 5: great year. He's three outings away from having a sub-three ERA,
• 25:14
  Speaker 5: and nobody is mentioning one thing about needing a closer.
• 25:18
  Speaker 5: So I am leaving Riley O'Brien back there. I'm not
• 25:21
  Speaker 5: signing a closer because of the money that those guys cost.
• 25:25
  Speaker 5: And I'm just getting three relievers to take the 6th, 7th,
• 25:28
  Speaker 5: and 8th and take some of the pressure off. I
• 25:30
  Speaker 5: hope Swanson comes back. And I'm calling it good. And
• 25:34
  Speaker 5: I think Kittredge, if he's there, he can close. Alvarado,
• 25:36
  Speaker 5: he can close to take some pressure off. I agree
• 25:38
  Speaker 5: with you guys. Take some pressure off is great. But
• 25:41
  Speaker 5: Riley O'Brien is the closer. This is not even a question.
• 25:46
  Speaker 5: To me, not even a question. And I'm not getting
• 25:49
  Speaker 5: fired up at you guys. I just like, I can't
• 25:50
  Speaker 5: believe that people in the world of analytics, we're going
• 25:53
  Speaker 5: to look, oh, Riley has a four ERA.
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: He struggled down the stretch. What do you mean?
• 25:58
  Speaker 5: If you just take a look at the game logs
• 26:00
  Speaker 5: and take a look at what this guy did. I mean,
• 26:03
  Speaker 5: he was nasty for nearly all of the year, except
• 26:07
  Speaker 5: for three outings. Just, and without those three outings, nobody's
• 26:11
  Speaker 5: saying anything.
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: That's all I'm saying.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: So just so you know, I mean, I love his stuff, right?
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's no question. And it was his first
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: full year closing, so that's going to come with some
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: bumps and bruises. But if you're a major league organ–
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: It's like his first full year in the big leagues.
• 26:31
  Speaker 6: Right, true.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: So he's learning.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, everyone talks about him like he's a 24-year-old.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: He's 31, so I think that's why people are like, oh,
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: we expected better. But, like, if you look at his
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: overall numbers, too– You take away the worst one. Always
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: take away the worst one, and that's kind of who
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: the guy is. So if he's that guy and you
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: get Alvarado or you get somebody else that can take
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: the burden off a certain day, a Phillips, a Fairbanks,
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: take the burden off one day a week, right? One
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: day every seven where he doesn't have to close. September
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: looks better. It will just because of that. And that's
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: where it's like it is his to lose. When I
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: say his to lose, it's like, man, he just loses it.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: there's like, it's his spot unless he just doesn't get
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: it done. But if you give him that one day
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: a week, five or like four days a month where
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: he doesn't have to ramp up, September is going to
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: be great. And that's why I think that's why he
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: needs help.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: And it's just, he's got, he's got two years.
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: He's got two years on 130 days of service time. Right.
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: At the end of this year.
• 27:39
  Speaker 5: And yeah, he's still the one I get it. Like we're,
• 27:41
  Speaker 5: People talk about the age. We're talking about signing 34-year-old relievers.
• 27:45
  Speaker 5: He's 32 years old. What's the big deal? You let
• 27:48
  Speaker 5: him go close. He's an all-star closer with very good
• 27:54
  Speaker 5: peripheral numbers for league minimum right now. And his arbitration
• 27:59
  Speaker 5: because of broken service time and all the other factors
• 28:01
  Speaker 5: that the Cardinals will throw at him in arbitration is
• 28:04
  Speaker 5: going to keep his first and maybe even second year
• 28:07
  Speaker 5: numbers low unless he's an all-star again. And, I mean,
• 28:10
  Speaker 5: this is what you're trying to do on a team
• 28:11
  Speaker 5: that's rebuilding. This is exactly how you get more out
• 28:15
  Speaker 5: of a team is you have a closer that has
• 28:18
  Speaker 5: this type of control, contract control, and these type of numbers.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: And let's not forget, it's not just free agency.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: It's not just free agency. You can replenish your bullpen
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: via trade. The Cardinals have an ample amount of talent
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: where they could end up turning a deal and bringing
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: arms in that, you know, aren't available free agency. I
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: did want to throw one more thing by, because if
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: the Cardinals do decide to add a veteran pitcher, I
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: had a couple of names that I wanted to throw
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: out there just because I want to see your reaction,
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: but how about Jack Flaherty bringing him back? Now, Jack
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: is a guy who has really good stuff, but he's
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: had injuries and hasn't lived up to that potential. And
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: now he's a guy that's looking, as you say, I
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: would assume, for a prove-it contract. A guy like that,
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: if you're looking for a starter, thoughts, concerns.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: What were his numbers last year to say he's a
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: prove-it deal? It was a 3.8? Did I read that
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: right somewhere?
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: I think it was over 4. So 4.8, yeah.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: 3.6, 4.48.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so he, I mean, you're looking at, it is
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: a prove-it deal. The question that you have to ask
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: yourself on Jack is there's a reason why he keeps
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: getting one year deals. And there's a reason why you
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: traded him when you traded him. And as the question
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: that you have to ask is that bringing that back
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: in going to be good for what you're, what you're
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: building or will it be a problem for what you're building? So,
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: that's where I'm at on Jack. I like Jack. I
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: played with Jack when he first came up. So I'm
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: coming up through the minor leagues. He's had great stuff
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: when healthy and doing his thing. So I think the
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: front office and the coaching, all that coaching stuff's still
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: there from when he got traded. So I, you know,
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: I don't know how they feel about him, but he
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: got traded for a reason. I know that they were
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: kind of out of it and all that when he
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: did get traded, but there was, you know, there was some,
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: I think there was some bad blood, so I don't
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: think it's a fit, to be honest with you. I'm
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: not positive on that. But I don't think it's a kumbaya,
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: big warm hugs if he comes back. That's just my guess.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: Now, sometimes people can change. You go somewhere else and
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: you're like, hey, St. Louis is pretty good. I like
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: it there. But Kyle, what about that just a veteran
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: guy thing? to throw into the mix. You're not spending
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: a lot of money. A guy who has talent just
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: hasn't been able to put it together.
• 31:02
  Speaker 5: Well, I mean, I think there's a couple of names,
• 31:04
  Speaker 5: you know, somebody mentioned Bieber earlier. I think in the
• 31:07
  Speaker 5: text messages you sent before you had Robbie Ray and
• 31:09
  Speaker 5: we have Jack Flaherty. I think all three of those
• 31:11
  Speaker 5: guys are possible fits, but I mean, I really just
• 31:16
  Speaker 5: think it comes down to, would I rather have the
• 31:21
  Speaker 5: eight or nine possible starters in our system? get the
• 31:25
  Speaker 5: innings and then get three relievers or sign a starter. Yeah. I,
• 31:31
  Speaker 5: I think adding the right starter and I would do
• 31:34
  Speaker 5: it on one of the guys for a two or
• 31:35
  Speaker 5: three year deal because who knows what this is going
• 31:38
  Speaker 5: to look like after the lockout. So I would take
• 31:40
  Speaker 5: advantage of that and I would do a longer term
• 31:41
  Speaker 5: deal personally. But yeah, I mean, I, because I think
• 31:46
  Speaker 5: this team in, if it's not this year, next year,
• 31:49
  Speaker 5: they're not going to be looking to do this one
• 31:51
  Speaker 5: year deal. So maybe if we go and look at
• 31:53
  Speaker 5: the 2028 free agents, maybe that's a better list of
• 31:56
  Speaker 5: guys to pick from. But I'm going after a guy
• 32:00
  Speaker 5: for a two-, three-, four-year deal, and I want him
• 32:03
  Speaker 5: to be here after the lockout when this team's really good.
• 32:07
  Speaker 5: I think this is the time where you kind of
• 32:10
  Speaker 5: do what the Rangers did a little bit with Corey Seager.
• 32:12
  Speaker 5: They got Corey Seager in 2022, I believe, and signed him.
• 32:21
  Speaker 5: And Simeon, they signed both those guys before they went
• 32:23
  Speaker 5: for it. They kind of got those guys there, and
• 32:25
  Speaker 5: then the next year they went for it. So that's
• 32:28
  Speaker 5: kind of what I would think of. If you find
• 32:29
  Speaker 5: a guy that you can get for a three- or
• 32:31
  Speaker 5: four-year deal that you like as a starter, you get
• 32:33
  Speaker 5: him now, and he's here for when you're winning in
• 32:34
  Speaker 5: two years.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: Well, gentlemen.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: Especially if the makeup fits what you're doing. That's a
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: big thing. You have to know, when they signed Corey
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: Seager in Texas, our manager, Chris Woodward, knew what he
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: was getting and knew how that was going to build
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: to what they were doing and what he didn't get
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: to reap the benefits of what he was building because
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: they axed him after he had to build them through
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: the whole rebuild and all that and then they axed
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: him when it was time to win. I find that
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: to be rude, but that's part of it. Hopefully, Ollie
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: doesn't get the same ax, but you find someone that
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: is going to fit what you're building and fit with
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: the starters that you have and the organizational outlook and
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: i'm hyams got guys that he knows in this game
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: that are that fit what he's built in the rays
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: the boston era so i'm anxious to see if he
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: says if we get a surprise like hey this guy's
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: for a four-year deal and you're like whoa didn't see
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: that coming it's like well he's going to be our
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: number one so we can figure out who the rest
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: of the guys are as they come and let's be
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: honest the reliever or not the relievers the prospects they
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: got They're hoping that the Doyles and those guys are
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: at least twos. And if we can get one of
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: those guys to be a two, then that's when it's like, hey,
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: we got a young top of the rotation guy. And
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: then that's when you can start doing your position player,
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: pick your guys that go for it. Fair enough.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: And Lance, you started the show, actually, before we rolled
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: tape on it. You were dropping F-bombs and you had
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: none during the actual show.
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: You used them all up.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: You pissed me off right when we opened the screen
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: today and we weren't even recording yet. I've never seen it.
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: That's great. And you guys did a total flip on me.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: I said, I'll build this where they're going to be
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: engaged because they love veteran starters. And they were like, bullpen, bullpen,
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: which I agree with.
• 34:32
  Speaker 4: Good job, fellas.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: That's going to do it for this edition of Cardinal Territory.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: We'll see you for the next episode. Hopefully that one
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: won't suck.