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Chief of Staff: Context Switching as a Love Language · Roast the Post Podcast

• 0:01
  Hey everyone and welcome to Roast the Post,
• 0:03
  the story behind the bullets.
• 0:05
  I'm Jennifer Houle and every week Paul and I pull apart a real
• 0:09
  job posting to
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: figure out what it actually says about the company behind it.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because let's be honest, job postings are rarely just job postings.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: There are tiny windows into culture,
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: decision making,
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: and sometimes a warning flag for complete chaos.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: If you're a job seeker,
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: we'll help you read between the lines so you can spot the red flags,
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: the green flags,
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: and the run,
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: don't walk flags.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're a job seeker seeker,
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: HR folks,
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: hiring managers,
• 0:37
  anyone crafting these things will decode why certain posting
• 0:41
  structures signal
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: clarity or why others break confusion everywhere.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Each episode, one of us brings a job post the other hasn't seen.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: We break it down section by section.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: And at the end,
• 0:52
  we both give it a score and leave you with some insights from
• 0:55
  our nearly 50 years
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: of combined experience in the world of workplaces.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: All right, let's roast.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: So we are,
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: before we start the show,
• 1:08
  I think we should recognize that folks who watched the first
• 1:12
  like four or five
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: episodes and gave us feedback,
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: thank you very much.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: We're trying out something a little bit new today.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Hope you all like it.
• 1:18
  And for the person who very bravely wrote in that they could
• 1:24
  see up my nose,
• 1:25
  thank you.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: And today's brand new camera angle is for you.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: We're not doing no nostril, but we're going nostril light moving forward.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I think everyone will appreciate that.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's a protocol for nostril viewing.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: There is such thing as too much nostril, I think.
• 1:46
  So this week I am bringing you the job posting and I just want
• 1:52
  to know one thing.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: Are you ready to roast the post?
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: You can't even imagine how ready I am to roast this post.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just like turn on the torches.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do it.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: And a reminder for those listening at home,
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: we will have the full job posting linked in the show notes.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: So let's get started.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go into the Roasty profile, if you will.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: The job title is Chief of Staff Client Operations.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: The Report 2 title is not listed.
• 2:25
  The company side is 11 to 50 employees,
• 2:29
  and the industry is Operations Consulting.
• 2:32
  This company is a startup operations platform and service that
• 2:38
  handles back office
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: functions like HR,
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: finance,
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  SPEAKER_00: compliance,
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  SPEAKER_00: payroll,
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  and equity so founders can outsource administrative work and
• 2:46
  focus on growing their
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: business.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Their head office location is Beaverton, Oregon, United States.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: I had to do some digging to find that.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: Hang on.
• 2:55
  So Beaverton is not just a Canadian satire website that screws
• 2:59
  with the Times
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: Magazine's fact checkers.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's actually a place too.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's a place in Oregon.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: And the job location is fully remote.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: They have postings kind of all over the place.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, this one specifically is in Canada and it's a full time job.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to start reading the job posting as per,
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  SPEAKER_00: let's see,
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  SPEAKER_00: Chief of Staff Client Operations,
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: about the job,
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  SPEAKER_00: also known as Operations Program Manager or Client Operations Manager.
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  SPEAKER_00: You'll run back office ops,
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  SPEAKER_00: HR,
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  SPEAKER_00: finance,
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  SPEAKER_00: compliance for multiple startups,
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  SPEAKER_00: owning delivery,
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  SPEAKER_00: triaging edge cases,
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: and building scalable processes.
• 3:46
  This is a role for those who love working and strategizing with
• 3:49
  high growth founders and CEOs.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to go into the about us and then we can break.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: and discuss it.
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  SPEAKER_00: About us.
• 3:58
  This company exists to make every startup and SMB in the world
• 4:02
  successful.
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  We believe that the more successful startups,
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  the better a world will all experience.
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  SPEAKER_00: Operations are foundational,
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  SPEAKER_00: yet most companies chronically underinvest in them to their detriment.
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  We build and maintain their back office operations so that they
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  can focus on their
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  SPEAKER_00: differentiating superpowers.
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  SPEAKER_00: We work behind the scenes to help our clients win.
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  SPEAKER_00: We like efficiency.
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  SPEAKER_00: We geek out on checklists.
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  SPEAKER_00: We are transparent with each other and our clients.
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  SPEAKER_00: We are professional, inclusive and autonomous.
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  And our goal is to provide a culture that fosters long term
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  success is reputation
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  SPEAKER_00: and trust based fun.
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  SPEAKER_00: and pushes each of us to always learn.
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  We are looking for proactive detail oriented individuals
• 4:45
  interested in joining as a
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  SPEAKER_00: chief blank officer.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's the name of the company that I've blanked.
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  What we call our operation program managers or fractional chief
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  of staff lead multi
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  SPEAKER_00: work stream back office program.
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  SPEAKER_00: So HR, finance compliance,
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  for startups,
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  unblock teams and leaders,
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  and deliver outcomes across a client portfolio.
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  You are the main conduit through which all our clients' back
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  office operations run.
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  SPEAKER_00: You are their project manager and leader.
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  You are the person they trust to keep things running so they
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  can focus on their
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  SPEAKER_00: product and sales.
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  SPEAKER_00: You strategize and own their back office operation.
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  The chief blank officer serves as a fractional chief of staff
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  chief operating
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  SPEAKER_00: officer,
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  SPEAKER_00: working with multiple startup founders,
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  SPEAKER_00: CEOs to project manage key corporate matters.
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  SPEAKER_00: These responsibilities are often tactical,
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  but as you build trusted relationships with the CEOs of these
• 5:44
  world-changing
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  SPEAKER_00: startups,
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  SPEAKER_00: you will also become their strategic partner.
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  SPEAKER_00: Successful project manager operations leads get it done,
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  SPEAKER_00: figure it out,
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  SPEAKER_00: proactively get ahead of problems,
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  SPEAKER_00: and communicate every step.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we're going to pause there.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's cool.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: This is really interesting.
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  They said kind of at the beginning that they believe that the
• 6:09
  world would be a much
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  better place with a whole bunch of successful startups and
• 6:13
  small businesses and
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  SPEAKER_01: whatnot.
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  SPEAKER_01: That really vibes with me.
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  SPEAKER_01: It lines up with my kind of personal values and why I do what I do.
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  I believe the world's going to be a much better place if we
• 6:23
  have a whole whack load
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  of small businesses that are successful because you have more
• 6:27
  broadly distributed
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  SPEAKER_01: labor markets,
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: you've got decentralization of
• 6:30
  power uh economic power and those are those are good things for
• 6:34
  a society so like
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  that part i dig i dig a lot um it's also interesting from a
• 6:41
  business model
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  perspective it's kind of interesting that they are essentially
• 6:45
  they've essentially
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  SPEAKER_01: created um a back office agency
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  SPEAKER_01: So they're acting as the back office for,
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: kind of a handful of clients or whatever,
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  SPEAKER_01: and they're just kind of getting stuff done.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like they're,
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: they're,
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  SPEAKER_01: they're acting as like that team that's unsung heroes,
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  SPEAKER_01: as they say,
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  SPEAKER_01: in a lot of ways.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's very interesting.
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  yeah i thought it was a very interesting uh job posting i've
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  always kind of had an
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  interest in chief of staff roles in general i just find them
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  fascinating i think
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  that they're a very valuable role to an organization um but but
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  to me it's
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  interesting that that's the title because that's not what i
• 7:30
  think the role is they
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  SPEAKER_00: use a few different titles here and there
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  SPEAKER_00: But I guess for ease of explanation, that's the title they've gone with.
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  SPEAKER_00: I thought it was interesting as well.
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  SPEAKER_00: It sounds pretty exciting.
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  SPEAKER_00: My background is in venture capital.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so...
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  what we do is provide this kind of support from a funder's
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  perspective so we have a
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  platform services team for example i'm employed at the venture
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  capital firm but i
• 8:05
  also provide hr guidance to our portfolio companies who don't
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  have hr in place we
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  SPEAKER_00: also provide vetted really well researched fractional support
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  SPEAKER_00: and in-house support.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we'll say our CFO,
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  SPEAKER_00: for example,
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  can help with some of our startups with their financial needs
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  and providing
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  SPEAKER_00: guidance.
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  So it's kind of like this all in one formula they're doing as
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  its own whole
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  SPEAKER_00: enterprise,
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  SPEAKER_00: its own organization,
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  SPEAKER_00: whereas it's something that
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  we offer as a VC firm and a lot of other firms as well as like
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  an in-house platform
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  SPEAKER_00: support service.
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  SPEAKER_00: So it's an interesting model.
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  SPEAKER_00: My question for you is,
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  SPEAKER_00: did you identify anything that stood out to you as like green flag,
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  SPEAKER_00: red flag,
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  SPEAKER_00: beige flags,
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  SPEAKER_00: anything?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, green flags.
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  So for me,
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  the green flags are they're kind of explaining quite clearly
• 9:10
  what it is they do.
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  SPEAKER_01: And in kind of the startup world, that is not always the case.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like some things get a little bit murky.
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  SPEAKER_01: in the startup world.
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  SPEAKER_01: So you're not always fully cognizant of what you're signing up for.
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  SPEAKER_01: But this seems to be very clear.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's like, all right, you're going to work for essentially an agency.
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  That agency is going to provide services to a staple or a
• 9:35
  portfolio of clients.
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  SPEAKER_01: And all of those clients are startups.
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  SPEAKER_01: And the way that this reads to me so far
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  SPEAKER_01: is we are going to tame the chaos for our clients.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because working back office,
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  SPEAKER_01: back office operations and kind of like the plumbing,
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  SPEAKER_01: if you will,
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  SPEAKER_01: in early stage companies is extremely chaotic.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's very chaotic.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: They don't seem to be shying away from that, which is great.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's absolutely fantastic.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think that they're probably,
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: by taking this approach,
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  SPEAKER_01: they're probably going to attract people who are like,
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, show me the chaos monkey, I got this.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, absolutely.
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  I like Green Flag for me is just kind of their blatant
• 10:25
  excitement for the work that
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: they're doing,
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  SPEAKER_00: like talking about geeking out on certain things.
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  SPEAKER_00: I like their honesty.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna get into a little bit more,
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  SPEAKER_00: some examples of the work that you would be doing in this role,
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  SPEAKER_00: qualifications,
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  SPEAKER_00: and it gets pretty intense.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I appreciate that they're so transparent about it.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like they're in no way saying, oh, this is a chill job.
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  SPEAKER_00: They're like, you're going to work.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: But if you love it, then this is the role for you.
• 10:56
  So yeah,
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  any red flags,
• 10:58
  anything that makes you feel cautious so far or...
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing yet.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing yet.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: My spidey sense is tingling a little bit,
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  but I think perhaps we're just a little bit early in the job
• 11:11
  posting for me to
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: pounce and go into attack mode and whatnot.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: So let's carry on.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really curious to see the next section.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do it.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: So the next section is going to be covering some examples of the work and
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: qualifications,
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  SPEAKER_00: skills,
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: and then we'll stop there.
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  SPEAKER_00: So some examples of the work we do.
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  The operations team is sometimes the dumping ground for things
• 11:35
  that don't go anywhere else.
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  SPEAKER_00: While others are bothered by that, we revel in it.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: We get it done when no one else can.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: Use judgment and thoughtfulness.
• 11:44
  Can you work with our accountant to get taxes filed or can you
• 11:48
  get this NDA out to
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: a customer and coordinate if there are any issues?
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  SPEAKER_00: Research and problem solving for back office edge cases.
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  Be smart enough and skilled enough to jump from a finance
• 11:58
  question to an HR
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: question to a vendor question.
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  SPEAKER_00: We handle the complex unknowns.
• 12:04
  strategic work example how should i think about compensation
• 12:07
  and benchmarks for my
• 12:08
  company we've seen this organically happen at times when ops
• 12:12
  have built a trusted
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: relationship with clients qualification skills five plus years of startup
• 12:19
  experience business experience that includes interfacing with
• 12:22
  clients or external
• 12:23
  parties is required two plus years experience in at least two
• 12:28
  of the following
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: project management
• 12:30
  product management,
• 12:32
  customer success,
• 12:33
  client operations,
• 12:34
  HR,
• 12:35
  finance,
• 12:35
  legal,
• 12:36
  or compliance.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: So they're saying two years experience in at least two.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: I just wanted to reiterate that.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Proactive detail oriented and excellent ability to contact switch.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: Great communication skills.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: This includes not only an ability to talk on a call,
• 12:51
  but much more so write down every step and communicate the
• 12:55
  value of that step
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: effectively.
• 12:57
  Ability to say no in a way that doesn't feel like a no to the
• 13:00
  other party.
• 13:01
  You love building deep trusting relationships with dynamic
• 13:04
  founders across many industries.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Are a total geek for better processes,
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: more standardization and reinventing things just enough to make them more
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: efficient.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: You enjoy improving every day.
• 13:17
  You know what Kaizen means and the fact that we care about it
• 13:21
  excites you.
• 13:22
  Checking items off of your work list while also considering how
• 13:25
  can I do this
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: process more efficiently brings a smile to your face.
• 13:29
  There's always more to do for clients and you thrive on getting
• 13:32
  things done while
• 13:33
  simultaneously knowing that you are helping to move these
• 13:36
  amazing startups forward.
• 13:38
  people who have a deep dedication to client service and doing
• 13:41
  right by our
• 13:42
  stakeholders seeing delight on the client's face brings delight
• 13:45
  to your day ability
• 13:47
  to focus in stressful situations and almost automatically
• 13:50
  prioritize openness to
• 13:52
  giving and receiving feedback you don't mind doing the unsexy
• 13:56
  part of running a
• 13:56
  startup i.e dealing with regulators including waiting on hold
• 14:00
  forever for them to
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: pick up
• 14:02
  managing employee offboarding,
• 14:04
  and basically doing the startup plumber work.
• 14:07
  If you believe you deserve to only work on sexy things,
• 14:10
  then this isn't the role for you.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: We live in the unsexy but critical.
• 14:14
  You want to join a passionate,
• 14:16
  fun,
• 14:16
  and kind team for the long term,
• 14:18
  two plus years.
• 14:19
  While this role might be a stepping stone and we celebrate our
• 14:22
  team members'
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: growth,
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: if you apply,
• 14:24
  our assumption is that you prefer a job where you can see
• 14:26
  yourself for several
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: years.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to stop there.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: So that was a lot of information,
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of hard to read sentences for me,
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: just like sentence structure,
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: which always gets me,
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: is a little bit challenging,
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: but curious to hear your thoughts.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Red flags, green flags, beige flags, what do we got here?
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: There, yeah, it didn't disappoint.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: There's even more there.
• 14:54
  And maybe this is kind of a good place to call out that how you
• 15:00
  write a job ad
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: structurally,
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: like your word choice,
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: the length of the sentences,
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: punctuation,
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: breaks,
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: all of that,
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: it can have an impact on the audience.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like Jen said,
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: these were really,
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: really long sentences and reading them out loud was kind of like,
• 15:16
  you know like did I give myself a tongue cramp or something
• 15:19
  like it works the same
• 15:21
  way with your brain right so if you're if you're writing a
• 15:23
  paragraph or you know
• 15:25
  three four sentences to kind of communicate and explain each
• 15:29
  point in your job that
• 15:31
  you're maybe doing yourself a little bit of a disservice so
• 15:35
  this like you know
• 15:36
  minor comment that this perhaps could have been simplified
• 15:39
  without losing the the
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: impactful language though I did quite like
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: what was in here.
• 15:44
  But yeah,
• 15:45
  green flags,
• 15:46
  beige flags,
• 15:47
  red flags,
• 15:48
  no red flags for me so far.
• 15:51
  Like my Spidey sense is still kind of like quietly buzzing in
• 15:55
  the background,
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: but there were a bunch of green flags.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: They said that they're a dumping ground
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: for stuff, for operational stuff.
• 16:06
  And some people get mad that the dumping ground is dumping
• 16:08
  ground and whatever,
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: but they love it.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's a green flag because it's true.
• 16:13
  Operations teams do tend to be the dumping ground for stuff
• 16:17
  that other people don't
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: wanna deal with.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes that creates the animosity.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: So calling it out right there and being like,
• 16:23
  you are the kind of person who likes to kind of bring order to
• 16:26
  that scenario.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome, green flag for sure.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: Context switching,
• 16:32
  explicitly calling out that you need to be the kind of person
• 16:36
  who can switch
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: context.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: That was a green flag because context switching,
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: it's often talked about,
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: you hear a lot about the penalty to context switching.
• 16:46
  So if your brain has to jump from thing to thing,
• 16:50
  there's a cognitive penalty.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's called attention residue is the way that scientists,
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: behavioral scientists kind of look at it.
• 16:58
  And attention residue is basically just like a period of time
• 17:01
  where after you stop
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: thinking about one thing and start thinking about another,
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: you're still actually thinking about the last thing.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it kind of causes a bit of a train wreck in your brain.
• 17:12
  some people can actually manage context switching quite well
• 17:17
  and it's usually
• 17:18
  people who have been bombarded with it a lot and they've just
• 17:22
  become used to it so
• 17:23
  them saying you got a context switch green flag because people
• 17:27
  who like know what
• 17:28
  that is and know like what it's all about know they can manage
• 17:31
  it they'll be like
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: yeah this is my bag I'm going
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: Another green flag,
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: it sounds to me,
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: with the whole two by two experience thing that they talked about,
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: that they're going to put some thought into tailoring or matching,
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: like playing matchmaker and matching the person who joins,
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: because I assume there's going to be a bunch of these people.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: chief of staff kind of people, right?
• 17:56
  So it sounds like they're going to do a little bit of
• 17:59
  matchmaking between the
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: person and the client.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a great sign.
• 18:04
  When you start thinking about agency work through that light
• 18:09
  and you start putting
• 18:09
  effort and attention into matching the right people with the
• 18:13
  right client,
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: your outcomes are a heck of a lot better.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen that in the agency world.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: It wouldn't be any different here.
• 18:19
  So if that's what they're doing with the two by two thing,
• 18:22
  great,
• 18:22
  good for them.
• 18:23
  Another green flag,
• 18:26
  they said that they want people to stay,
• 18:28
  to stick around for several years.
• 18:31
  If that's not just lip service and they actually do want to
• 18:35
  build a long-term team,
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: huge green flag.
• 18:39
  that means they're going to be investing in people and they're
• 18:42
  going to be
• 18:42
  investing in professional development training empowerment and
• 18:46
  they're also
• 18:47
  probably i hope knock on wood they're going to think through
• 18:50
  the compensation
• 18:51
  structure and come up with something that will keep people
• 18:54
  around um so i'm really
• 18:56
  curious when we get to the the compensation section i have to
• 18:59
  guess how much this
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: is worth uh what that's gonna be beige flags a couple um
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to do everything in this job.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to wear many hats.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's pretty common in the startup world,
• 19:13
  but it'll be it'll be even more of a thing with a fractional
• 19:17
  agency serving
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: startups.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: Think of it as like compounding of hats.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: So you're going to have many hats on top of many hats.
• 19:24
  It's going to be it's going to be chaotic,
• 19:26
  which is where the context switching thing comes in.
• 19:32
  They said that you're basically going to be a plumber and
• 19:35
  you're going to love it.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think I used the same word.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: Just think about what that means for you, how you like to work, right?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because being in the bowels of an organization, it is not sexy.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's a grind.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: They're doing a good job of calling that out,
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: but you need to really think about whether or not that's for you.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: You're also probably not going to have a life.
• 20:00
  This is going to mean that you're going to be on call serving
• 20:05
  your clients.
• 20:05
  So you're going to take calls,
• 20:07
  text messages,
• 20:08
  emails,
• 20:08
  whatever at random hours of the day.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: And if there's time zones and like,
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: your clients on the East Coast,
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: but you're on the West Coast,
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: if that's kind of in the mix,
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: it's going to be amplified even more like time travels hard.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: So those are beige flags,
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: not killers,
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: but things to watch out for when you're thinking about this job role,
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: if this is like for you or not.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 20:29
  And I think that you touched on something really important that
• 20:33
  ties into that
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: commitment to two plus years.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's because of what you just described.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to be on call.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to be doing everything and then some.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's exhausting.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I can totally understand why they're asking people,
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: look,
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: if you're going to be here,
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: please at least be here for two years.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: We will incentivize that for you.
• 20:54
  But there's a reason they're saying that because to me that
• 20:56
  reads high turnover,
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: high expectations,
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: high turnover.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Some of the things that I,
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: I guess,
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: beige flags for me,
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think you had,
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: you had more green flags than I did.
• 21:10
  I worry a little bit about somebody who can provide sound HR
• 21:19
  guidance and sound
• 21:22
  financial guidance and sound compliance right like how do you
• 21:28
  it's they're each
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: their own discipline and it almost feels a little bit like
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: the assumption that anyone can just walk in and do,
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'll use human resources for an example,
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: because I've built my whole career on it.
• 21:43
  And so I'm not just going to turn around and say I can
• 21:47
  magically do these other functions.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: This is my discipline.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: This is what I am like a subject matter expert on.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I wonder if they do have,
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: like you talked about,
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: like the actual pairing,
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: maybe they pair up
• 21:59
  somebody who can do it has HR experience with compliance or
• 22:02
  something that is a
• 22:03
  little bit more of a natural fit because I would be worried as
• 22:07
  an entrepreneur that
• 22:08
  I would be getting HR guidance from someone who maybe like they
• 22:12
  say they say you
• 22:13
  need to have two plus years in each of these things but like
• 22:16
  how how does that
• 22:17
  happen then how is somebody actually meeting these requirements
• 22:21
  um and getting a
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: new experience to give
• 22:24
  sound advice to such a fragile environment like a startup right
• 22:30
  like startups
• 22:31
  really really good point live and die off of poor guidance i've
• 22:37
  seen it i've seen
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: it happen um in in my world and so
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's a little bit of a reddish flag for me.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: Let's dig into that a little bit.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're absolutely right.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's something that is,
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: if I wasn't so enamored by all the damn green flags I saw,
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: I probably would call that.
• 23:02
  Expecting one person to be a subject matter expert in
• 23:09
  specifically like finance and
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: regulatory compliance and human resources.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's a challenge.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: You're probably not going to find someone who is like an SME,
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: a subject matter expert in those three areas.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: especially if this is a price sensitive role,
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: like maybe you would find someone who has been,
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: like a,
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 23:35
  like a chief compliance officer for 10 years and like a chief
• 23:38
  operations officer
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: for 10 years,
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: like had that escalating period of like senior,
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: senior leadership.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: You might find some of those people, but like half a million bucks,
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: This is what I'm saying.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: There's a huge disconnect because they're not asking for that.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: They're asking for two plus years of experience.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like, honey, it's not enough time.
• 23:59
  I don't understand what kind of guidance you would be expecting
• 24:02
  from someone who's
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: had two years of experience in these.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: So that's interesting to me.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: And also,
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: I see this as,
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: to me,
• 24:09
  this isn't a job that someone with that kind of experience
• 24:11
  would apply for because
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: it seems a little bit more entry level.
• 24:17
  feels like something that you can do for a bit as it implies by
• 24:20
  asking for a
• 24:21
  two-year commitment and then move on to like something a little
• 24:24
  bit bigger so it's
• 24:26
  interesting to me i would really want to know the
• 24:28
  qualifications and backgrounds of
• 24:30
  the individuals that they are hiring for these roles because i
• 24:33
  feel like yeah five
• 24:34
  plus years of like entrepreneurial experience um startup
• 24:39
  experience and two plus
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: years of experience and at least two of the following is like
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: like interesting to me.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: Who is that?
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: What's their ideal candidate profile?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: That would be really interesting to me.
• 24:54
  You know,
• 24:54
  there's also an implicit risk to the business here,
• 24:58
  like the agency business.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're starting a company,
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: and you hire someone who has three,
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: four years experience and they're
• 25:09
  kind of your office manager slash your um uh your recruiter or
• 25:14
  hr person slash like
• 25:16
  your payroll administrator that's that's not a great idea but
• 25:19
  you often have to do
• 25:20
  it and you're shielded from risk to some extent because they're
• 25:25
  a direct employee
• 25:26
  like or i should say the employee is shielded from liability
• 25:29
  because they're
• 25:30
  directly employed by the business now in an agency relationship
• 25:34
  it's different
• 25:35
  so if you're an agency advising a client and you bugger it up
• 25:40
  and cause the client
• 25:41
  material harm because you gave bad advice there's liability
• 25:44
  there yeah so you from
• 25:46
  the agency side like that business structure that agency they
• 25:49
  would have to be
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: really really
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: really on top of their,
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: their liability limiting kind of like things,
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: their contracting and everything else like this,
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: this,
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: I,
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is,
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: this is quite a big red flag,
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: for the agency business as well as the employee.
• 26:07
  yeah yeah so that absolutely stood out to me um and you know
• 26:12
  some green flags are
• 26:12
  what you mentioned they're they're really uh overt with what it
• 26:17
  is that they're
• 26:17
  into and you can you can get a good read on their culture
• 26:21
  through this job posting
• 26:22
  which frankly does not happen very often um so kudos to them
• 26:27
  for doing that like i
• 26:28
  can kind of tell what it would be like to work there just based
• 26:31
  on their the
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: language that they're they're using
• 26:34
  um so the other thing i guess for me was yeah that two plus
• 26:40
  years they want you to
• 26:42
  be there for several years because i think that it's going to
• 26:44
  be a tough job to be
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: in for several years um so
• 26:50
  Yeah,
• 26:50
  I mean,
• 26:51
  I didn't really break that down into flags per se,
• 26:55
  but there are a few.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: There's some green, some red, some beige-y type flags.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: But let's continue.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk a little bit about what's in it for you.
• 27:07
  So now for compensation,
• 27:10
  the best parts,
• 27:11
  the benefits,
• 27:13
  all of that kind of good stuff.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: So the compensation, actually,
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: Why don't I get you,
• 27:19
  do you feel like you have enough information right now to guess
• 27:23
  something about the
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: comp?
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because the comp is like the next thing that we can discuss.
• 27:28
  Or I can talk a little bit more about some of the other
• 27:31
  benefits and save comp for last.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: What are your thoughts?
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think a role like this would be paying?
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: Okay,
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: so if this were in Canada,
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: which it's not,
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: and if this agency was kind of new,
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: which it sounds like it is,
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: though I suspect that they have a portfolio of clients already.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a Canadian, an American company, the role is for remote Canada.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: So interesting.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 28:09
  is it is there was there anything that gave you the sense that
• 28:12
  this is meant to be
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: like a Canadian role?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: Or is it simply like we're casting a wide net?
• 28:19
  We'll we'll hire anybody from anywhere like Canada,
• 28:22
  Europe,
• 28:22
  doesn't matter.
• 28:23
  That one,
• 28:24
  they have several postings for very similar type roles like all
• 28:28
  over the place.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's what it is.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: And for fairness to you, the comp is listed and it's listed in U.S.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: dollars.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that might help a little bit.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: OK, I would I would probably put this.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm thinking that this is kind of a kind of a newer agency,
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: just starting out looking for a bunch of people,
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: I would probably put the base compensation like 60 to 65 US in there.
• 29:00
  And I think that it's probably worth double that on the market,
• 29:04
  given what they're going to do.
• 29:07
  yeah i was i was thinking like canadian in my mind i was going
• 29:11
  to canadian dollars
• 29:11
  and i was thinking like oh 80 000 something like that um so
• 29:15
  base compensation is
• 29:18
  and the wording is a little bit odd i'm just going to read it
• 29:21
  verbatim because
• 29:22
  that's what they've written base compensation comma starting
• 29:25
  compensation wait a
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: minute i said verbatim they didn't write comma i i added that
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: Base compensation,
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: starting compensation is $80,000 US per year,
• 29:36
  but we expect most teammates once ramped will earn an average
• 29:41
  of $96,000 US or more
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: per year.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's weird wording, isn't it?
• 29:49
  yeah um so that that makes me wonder what okay base
• 29:54
  compensation 80 um you'll be
• 29:57
  earning 96 something once ramped uh what what does that mean
• 30:02
  are you billing hours
• 30:03
  like are you earning based on the hours that you bill to your
• 30:06
  clients are you an
• 30:07
  independent contractor that's very strange wording it makes me
• 30:12
  it makes it makes me
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: wonder how you're how you're earning your paycheck
• 30:15
  um it even makes me wonder you know is your paycheck dependent
• 30:19
  on um on client
• 30:20
  companies paying their bill on time like are you a portfolio
• 30:23
  manager and you're
• 30:24
  compensated based on that how does that work yeah it's it's
• 30:29
  interesting so 80 you
• 30:31
  know you're talking like a 16 000 difference and then it says
• 30:34
  but we expect most
• 30:36
  teammates once around it also makes me wonder if this is like a
• 30:40
  brand new business
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: that
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: They're just getting started,
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: so they're building and hiring now,
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: and they're giving a rough idea of once everyone is onboarded,
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: they estimate that they're going to be able to,
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: depending on contrast,
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: depending on,
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: I felt like that was such bizarre wording.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: The way that it's worded hints at some kind of variable compensation.
• 31:05
  yeah and so so it does there are a couple more bullet points um
• 31:09
  every team member
• 31:10
  receives equity in this company which is variable based on
• 31:14
  level since we're
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: building for the long term we offer equity on the high side
• 31:20
  so again they're using language that makes me think that
• 31:22
  they're not quite
• 31:23
  established yet like since we're building on um yeah yeah and
• 31:30
  then variable the
• 31:31
  equity is variable based on level um i'm assuming they mean
• 31:36
  like role seniority um
• 31:38
  yeah that's my assumption yeah but the so the the equity thing
• 31:44
  there is a question
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: that i have about that
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: Is it equity in the agency or is it equity in the portfolio company?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because those are very different things.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: Great question.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: Very much different things.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't have the answer for you.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because if it's equity in the agency, that's not a great perk.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: Agencies don't accumulate a ton of
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: value,
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: a ton of capital value,
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: like their agencies are cash flow businesses,
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: really,
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: especially if they're smaller businesses like you,
• 32:20
  you start an agency because the overhead is low and you can
• 32:24
  kind of get money in
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: and out quick and,
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: it's all good.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: You can kind of skim off, you can kind of skim off enough profit.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: to pay bonuses and everything else.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: But there's very little accumulated capital inside an agency.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas with the portfolio company,
• 32:40
  the whole point is to accumulate capital inside the business so
• 32:43
  that it grows in
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: value so that you can pay back the investors and the employees,
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: blah,
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: blah,
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: blah,
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: blah,
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: blah,
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: blah.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: So like ESOP in an agency, not worth that much.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: That ain't a benefit.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: No, absolutely.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: And a couple of other ones.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: So up to $50 per month in reimbursable health care costs.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: $50 a month is low.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: And particularly in like,
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: I know this is a Canadian job posting,
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: it would be,
• 33:11
  that'd be kind of the equivalent of saying you're going to get
• 33:14
  a healthcare
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: spending account for 50 bucks a month with socks,
• 33:20
  but at least we don't have to use that 50 bucks a month for
• 33:22
  heart surgery.
• 33:23
  If you're in the U S and you're 50 bucks a month turns into an
• 33:26
  ambulance ride that
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: costs 3000,
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: you're kind of puttered.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: That was really interesting to me.
• 33:31
  So they don't they don't then have a benefits or insurance
• 33:35
  health insurance program.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's what that tells me.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it's interesting because if you were a small organization,
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: it is really hard to get good rates in the U.S.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: for a health insurance program.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like absolutely.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of companies don't even bother until they have a certain headcount.
• 33:52
  So,
• 33:52
  again,
• 33:52
  another indicator that maybe this is a very young organization.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: But even then, $50.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: So the company I work for, we only have three U.S.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: employees and we reimburse monthly, but we reimburse $1,500 a month U.S.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: And still, that's very generous, but it's still not great for U.S.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: employees.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: So to reimburse $50 is like,
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: wacky to me, but it's better than nothing.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's better than nothing.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to tear them completely apart.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: At least they do something.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: Here's an important note, I thought.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: Note,
• 34:30
  we do not negotiate as we believe it is biased against various
• 34:34
  groups and creates
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: poor dynamics.
• 34:36
  Instead,
• 34:37
  we pay a quote based on performance and meeting clearly defined
• 34:41
  metrics.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think about that?
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: So that means with the salary they hire you at,
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: you cannot say,
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: actually,
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'm worth this or whatever,
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: and they state their reasons.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: What are your feelings?
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: And presumably that ethos also applies to salary adjustments,
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: compensation,
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: promotions,
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: et cetera,
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: et cetera.
• 35:04
  I would assume that that means they have a rate card based on
• 35:08
  performance and
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: metrics and whatever else.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: On paper, it looks great.
• 35:13
  The idea that negotiation disadvantages certain groups is
• 35:19
  absolutely true.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: There are groups of people who feel very uncomfortable negotiating.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not even groups of people based on their characteristics,
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: like ethnicity,
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: gender,
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: et cetera,
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: et cetera,
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: et cetera.
• 35:32
  There are just some people who do not like negotiating and do
• 35:35
  not like asking for raises.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm one of them.
• 35:39
  I've never asked for a pay raise in my life because the thing
• 35:46
  makes me deeply uncomfortable.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 35:48
  I've also been fortunate enough to be offered pay raises that
• 35:52
  reflected the value
• 35:52
  that I had without a whole lot of talk because I focused on the
• 35:55
  work and delivered
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: really good value to the businesses I worked for.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I got pay raises, so it wasn't an issue for me.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't care about it.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: But there are people who that's not the case for.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: So on paper, interesting.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: I like it.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: In practice,
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: it's actually going to reduce the level of meritocracy in the business,
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: which meritocracy is a very good thing in a business,
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: especially an early stage startup.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say even especially, especially for like
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: a startup agency serving startups.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: You want to be able to retain people who are high performers,
• 36:34
  who can really make a difference in generating revenue for your
• 36:36
  business and
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: serving clients.
• 36:38
  And if you'd say to them,
• 36:40
  you can't negotiate and what you get is you get,
• 36:43
  they'll piss off.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: I understand where they're coming from with this.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't, it's a newer thing, but it's not kind of
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: exclusive to this organization, but I think
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's also another indicator to me that they are,
• 37:01
  they themselves are new and in their infancy because they're
• 37:04
  probably trying to get
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: everyone in at the same rate to make things a little bit easier.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I can see why they would do it at that point.
• 37:12
  I think that there are good ways to do this and there are not
• 37:16
  so great ways to do it.
• 37:17
  So I would want to know a little bit more,
• 37:21
  but I do agree that it would kind of like
• 37:24
  come to surface eventually who your high performers are and um
• 37:30
  you at a certain
• 37:31
  point like you said meritocracy then goes out the window and
• 37:34
  then what you're gonna
• 37:35
  lose you're gonna lose your stars so i'm really just repeating
• 37:38
  what you said but i
• 37:39
  think it's like a full a future episode to talk about things
• 37:43
  like compensation and
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: philosophies i think that there's a good argument for that um but i will
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm still reeling a little bit from that.
• 37:53
  I have never,
• 37:54
  ever in a job posting seen,
• 37:56
  we do not believe in negotiation.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: You get what you get.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm still stuck on that.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, carry on.
• 38:05
  no it's just it's funny because when you you said you get what
• 38:10
  you get and my this
• 38:11
  is totally off off topic but my son was playing in a rugby
• 38:15
  tournament and this one
• 38:18
  player this one little girl like tackled him and just was
• 38:23
  relentless with him
• 38:24
  And then she looked at him and said,
• 38:27
  you get what you get and you don't get upset.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: She knows what that means.
• 38:36
  But my son kept bringing it up and saying,
• 38:38
  remember when that girl tackled me and said that?
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: So you just reminded me of you get what you get and you don't get upset.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's what they're saying, right?
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's what they're they're tackling you and saying you get what you get.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: Take it or leave it.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: And again, you know, you know what that means?
• 38:53
  I think that means that she has a crush on him because you only
• 38:56
  kick sand on people
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: in the sandbox when you like them.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, right.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: She, it means she, she might need some, um,
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: Behavioral therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: If that's the way that she's expressing her emotions.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm just kidding.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: She was, I'm sure she's fine.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: Her parents are doing a great job.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, there's another section, another couple of sections here.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: So the best, that's their heading.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: The best parts.
• 39:25
  We are fully remote,
• 39:26
  do not require any travel and have somewhat flexible hours.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: Somewhat.
• 39:31
  The expectation is that all company CEOs work standard US hours
• 39:36
  from nine to five
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: across PST EST time zones.
• 39:40
  We're good people who work well together while solving critical
• 39:42
  problems for awesome startups.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: The universal benefits are unlimited PTO,
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: Work from home stipend up to $250 a month for things like office setup,
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: coffees,
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: co-working space.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: Why is executive coaching only valuable for executives?
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: We think that's stupid.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: Optional coaching two times a month.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: Only four 30-minute team meetings per week.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: Support from a team of other experts and teamwork to complete your work.
• 40:11
  Additional notes,
• 40:12
  this is about the interview process itself,
• 40:14
  the selection process.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: There will be five 15 to 16 minute interviews via Google Meet,
• 40:21
  one of which is a Q&A with another company's CEO to vet the
• 40:24
  role for you too.
• 40:25
  To help set you up for success,
• 40:29
  half of the questions are provided for the first interview.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: We will ask for up to four former or current manager references.
• 40:37
  you want us to consider your application you must apply to the
• 40:39
  role via the form
• 40:40
  that's linked we like fun and making some magic join us you'll
• 40:44
  learn more and we
• 40:45
  expect have more fun than any other role you've ever had and
• 40:50
  that's the job posting
• 40:51
  so i have some thoughts you look like you have some thoughts um
• 40:56
  share please do
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: tell uh
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: I would suck at playing poker.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: I would need to wear like a big old ski mask or something.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: I was in a high stakes poker game.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: Damn.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: I got some thoughts.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: I got some thoughts.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: CEO.
• 41:18
  First off,
• 41:21
  maybe this is just a typo or something,
• 41:23
  but I'm a little confused.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: This is a beige flag.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a little bit confused.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: I thought they were hiring chief of staff, not CEOs.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: Are they also hiring CEOs to plug into their portfolio clients?
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: If they are, cool, good for them.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, great question.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it's typo.
• 41:42
  I think I mentioned earlier on,
• 41:43
  too,
• 41:43
  that there are a few different titles thrown around here.
• 41:46
  So there's Chief of Staff,
• 41:48
  but then there's also Fractional Language,
• 41:50
  then there's the CEO.
• 41:51
  So I don't know if these are typos or if they're trying...
• 41:57
  Keyword called foolery.
• 41:59
  yeah yeah so it's a little bit odd i i flagged that too and i'm
• 42:02
  sure listeners did
• 42:03
  as well i did not read that incorrectly i read as a written and
• 42:07
  it does say okay
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: yeah that company cf ceos work standard us power so don't trust me
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_01: Another beige flag, coaching.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: On paper, great.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: Offering executive coaching to people who are in this role.
• 42:26
  It does kind of suggest or hint at who they're trying to hire,
• 42:32
  who they're targeting.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: To me,
• 42:34
  it sounds like they're going after someone who is kind of early
• 42:40
  to mid-career and
• 42:42
  they've kind of figured out their path and they've kind of
• 42:44
  figured out that they
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: need to invest in themselves.
• 42:47
  And executive coaching is a great way to do that if you've got
• 42:49
  a good coach.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can see that.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: But beige flag, not a green flag.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's a weird perk.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: Weird perk.
• 42:59
  references another beige flag for me uh four references is kind
• 43:04
  of a lot that's a
• 43:05
  lot and i think one of the first pieces of your writing that i
• 43:10
  ever read on your
• 43:12
  Substack while like last year was about reference checks and why
• 43:17
  you should just
• 43:18
  like skip them and it gave me give me a pretty new perspective
• 43:21
  on that and i was
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: like
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: That makes a lot of sense.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like I never put a ton of stock in references as a hiring manager before,
• 43:28
  simply because like all that a reference check proves is that
• 43:31
  you can generate
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: someone who is willing to lie for you.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't tell me anything.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: But the perspective you put on it was,
• 43:38
  was different and it was about like equity and structural
• 43:40
  disadvantage and whatnot.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: It was quite interesting.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe we shouldn't stick the link to that post in the show notes too.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'll take that on.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'll do that.
• 43:47
  And folks can kind of read about that because it was,
• 43:49
  it was eyeopening for me.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: References, beige flag for sure.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: Red flag, unlimited PTO.
• 43:57
  Unlimited PTO sounds awesome if you're an employee,
• 44:01
  but it's a bait and switch.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: There are problems with unlimited PTO policies.
• 44:07
  Nobody who offers unlimited PTO is going to tell you that the
• 44:10
  reason that they do
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: it is financial.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: If you have unlimited PTO, then you're not accruing vacation.
• 44:16
  So there's no value that the employer then has to turn over to
• 44:19
  you in a settlement
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: if you're laid off or dismissed or whatever else.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a backdoor to kind of like limit liability in those cases.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that's never talked about.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't dig that.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: unlimited pto also and i suspect that this will be very very true in this
• 44:38
  organization it creates a cultural um kind of situation or
• 44:45
  scenario where people
• 44:47
  feel like they can't take vacation unless other people are
• 44:50
  taking vacation and
• 44:52
  people who aren't taking vacation will begrudge people who are
• 44:56
  taking vacation
• 44:57
  when there's no structure to it that ends up happening a lot
• 45:02
  and that can get very
• 45:04
  toxic very quickly and it can also accumulate and lead to
• 45:09
  burnout and in an
• 45:11
  environment like this doing this job burn it's always already
• 45:15
  going to be a very
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: very severe risk like
• 45:18
  you will probably burn out at some point doing this job if it
• 45:23
  doesn't become a
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: regular occurrence.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: So unlimited PTO sounds great,
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: but it does not support your wellness,
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: especially in this environment.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: A couple of green flags, though, in this or one green flag, really.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: The interview process,
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: they say that they're going to have client companies,
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: CEOs from client companies participate in the interviews.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: I really like that.
• 45:47
  That kind of takes this 360 model that's kind of off and on
• 45:53
  like,
• 45:54
  you know,
• 45:54
  on vogue.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: for performance reviews and brings it into the hiring process.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: I really, really like that.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of this matchmaking thing, right?
• 46:04
  I think that having that client CEO participate in the
• 46:08
  interview is going to
• 46:10
  strengthen the bond between the person who's hired and the
• 46:14
  client company very,
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: very early on.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's quite smart.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: I've never heard of that before, but I liked it.
• 46:22
  see i'm like squirming in my seat to say to say something about
• 46:26
  that i'm just like
• 46:27
  it's my turn isn't my turn listen i don't know that that's what
• 46:33
  they mean because
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: the reason i don't know is because
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: They said CEO earlier in this section, right?
• 46:44
  They had said the expectation is that all company CEOs work
• 46:46
  standard US work hours.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: So when I read one of which in the interview process,
• 46:51
  like one interview is a Q&A with another company CEO to vet the
• 46:55
  role for you too.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't automatically read that it was like a portfolio CEO.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: I read it as another person with the same role in our company.
• 47:08
  like a peer interview or something like that because they like
• 47:14
  misworded CEO
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_00: elsewhere in the job posting.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: To me, I read this and I was like, I don't know what this means.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: I have no idea what they mean by that.
• 47:22
  And they do say,
• 47:24
  you know,
• 47:24
  with another company CEO to vet the role for you too.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't provide any clarity to me.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't read that from it.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't interpret it the same way that you did.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good point.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: uh, a peer, a peer interview.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: So the fact that we both don't know what they mean by that.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: Cause either, either one of us could be right.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's,
• 47:46
  it's ambiguous enough and there's enough confusion in the way
• 47:49
  that the back half of
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: the job posting was written that,
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_01: it could be interpreted either way.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_01: It could probably be interpreted another way that we're not thinking.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 47:58
  So,
• 47:58
  so interesting that we both got something completely different
• 48:01
  from like one sentence.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: I find that fascinating.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: Unlimited PTO,
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 48:09
  I would love to make a case for having a special one-off
• 48:13
  episode where we talk
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: about things like perks and benefits.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've been in organizations that have it.
• 48:23
  They usually try to have some kind of qualifier with a minimum
• 48:25
  of five weeks of
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: vacation per year.
• 48:29
  We make sure you take five weeks of vacation,
• 48:31
  whether we assign it to you or however it happens.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: like come hell or high water, you're taking five weeks.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: But the thing is like on average,
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: most people with unlimited PTO,
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's like four weeks average.
• 48:45
  So like just make it four weeks or just if five is your
• 48:47
  minimum,
• 48:47
  just make it five weeks,
• 48:49
  right?
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like, again, I understand why they're doing that.
• 48:52
  You explained it really well,
• 48:54
  but I don't think it's the perk that people think it is
• 48:57
  anymore.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's kind of like a passe thing to offer.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think offer generous vacation,
• 49:03
  make sure people take it and just don't be a place where people
• 49:08
  will like literally
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: die if they don't get their vacation.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's so hard to work there.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: I've also been in like behind closed doors and the conversations from the
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: leadership team.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: who have unlimited PTO being judgmental towards people who take it,
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: like being really,
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: really mean about it.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: this person,
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: like actually going through the spreadsheet and being like,
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_00: this person took this much and like,
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: it's a thing.
• 49:31
  It's very politically charged and it can negatively impact your
• 49:35
  reputation at work
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: if you were the one taking a bunch of PTO.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't care about that, that's totally fine.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_00: But I would say if you like to have a lot of
• 49:45
  paid vacation negotiate that when you join an organization
• 49:49
  negotiate a higher thing
• 49:50
  you can't do it here but not here but somewhere else um so that
• 49:56
  was what was
• 49:57
  interesting to me i loved that they put um only four 30-minute
• 50:02
  team meetings per
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: week hell yeah
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, get that shit done in four 30 minute meetings a week.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_00: If you can't, then I don't know what you're doing.
• 50:13
  There's so many other asynchronous tools out there like this to
• 50:16
  me is something
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: that is a bit more forward thinking and
• 50:22
  You know,
• 50:23
  maybe it's aspirational because,
• 50:24
  again,
• 50:24
  I feel like this is a very new organization.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: But if you can do that and if you can stick to that,
• 50:29
  you open up so much more potential for everyone else to get
• 50:34
  their real work done.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: What's interesting to me is that that's on the internal side.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: Now,
• 50:39
  if you're doing this job and you've got your portfolio
• 50:41
  companies that you're
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: supporting,
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: you are not having four 30 minute meetings a week.
• 50:45
  you're on all the time so that's probably why they're trying to
• 50:49
  minimize it on the
• 50:50
  internal side um and it's hard to do that um i also think that
• 50:55
  they're i love that
• 50:57
  they're talking about the interview process i think five 15 to
• 51:01
  60 minute interviews
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: is a lot lot of interviews five and then 15 to 60
• 51:09
  like that's what if it's 560 minute inter like that is a lot of
• 51:13
  interviews for this
• 51:15
  role so that was while i appreciate their transparency and i
• 51:19
  appreciate that
• 51:20
  they're saying like half the questions are provided in the
• 51:23
  first interview that's a
• 51:25
  weird like what is what's the math there how did they determine
• 51:28
  that feels very
• 51:29
  arbitrary just give the questions or don't um and then the four
• 51:35
  references hated it
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: Four references, are you kidding?
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like you mentioned,
• 51:39
  references are a form of currency and you're asking people to
• 51:44
  use up that currency
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: and for what,
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 51:49
  Like if you're asking for what point during the interview
• 51:53
  process are you asking
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_00: for the references?
• 51:54
  It better be when you're ready to give them the offer because
• 51:58
  if you're asking me
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: to use four references and I don't even get the job,
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_00: no thank you.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, we'll link.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: to that piece,
• 52:07
  but I'd love to do a full episode on references and some of the
• 52:12
  kind of more
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: outdated practices that we rely on for this kind of process.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: So those are my thoughts.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's the full job posting.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm curious about,
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_00: what you think,
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: any advice that you might have for the job seeker,
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_00: the applicant here,
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: the job posters,
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_01: if you're,
• 52:37
  if you're looking for a job and you come across something like
• 52:41
  this buyer beware,
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: This may be completely up your alley.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_01: This might be your thing.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: You might absolutely love this.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it's true that they were honest about the chaotic, crazy nature.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_01: And they were honest about your role.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to be unglamorous.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to be a lot of slog work.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: So they were very honest about that.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_01: But still ask questions.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: Think very critically about the job ad.
• 53:17
  And if you have an interview for something like this,
• 53:20
  be very inquisitive.
• 53:23
  The more questions that you can ask to really figure out what
• 53:26
  this culture is going
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: to be like,
• 53:28
  the better armed you're going to be to ultimately decide if
• 53:32
  it's for you or not.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_01: And if it were me, I would be asking about that ESOP thing.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_01: Where is the equity coming from?
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_01: Is it equity from the agency?
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_01: Is it equity from the portfolio company?
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's equity from the portfolio companies.
• 53:45
  And that's just kind of a part of the standard agreement that
• 53:49
  the agency enters
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_01: into with the portfolio companies.
• 53:54
  great I mean that that could potentially be huge like that you
• 53:57
  have one portfolio
• 53:58
  company that that goes public or exits or whatever else that
• 54:03
  could be a pretty
• 54:04
  substantial payoff for you so it makes a hell of a lot of sense
• 54:07
  but if it's equity
• 54:08
  in the agency no yeah no no yeah so be diligent more so with
• 54:18
  this than like an
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_01: established company like a big old bank
• 54:22
  yeah absolutely i agree i think ask some take your time come
• 54:28
  prepared with a lot of
• 54:29
  questions you'll you have tons of interviews so lots of
• 54:32
  opportunities to ask all of
• 54:34
  your questions um but go into it with a plan of what you need
• 54:38
  to know and primarily
• 54:39
  like what what does good look like in this role um i going back
• 54:45
  one second to the
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_00: executive coaching i actually like it because
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_00: Having worked with portfolio companies,
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_00: and a lot of the times the CEOs are the founders or co-founders of the
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_00: organization,
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_00: and there's that emotional attachment,
• 54:58
  it is very challenging to go into a company and try to tell
• 55:02
  them what is best for
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_00: them.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_00: So some kind of coaching on how to have those conversations,
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: how to be influential in those conversations,
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_00: or how to construct
• 55:16
  you know give constructive criticism I think there's a benefit
• 55:21
  for that and I also think that
• 55:24
  um yeah yeah I feel like I have so much to say about this job
• 55:29
  posting but I think
• 55:30
  just be cautious be cautious have a good list of questions that
• 55:33
  you want to ask
• 55:34
  understand what good looks like understand how you will be
• 55:37
  supported in this role
• 55:39
  um who are you accountable to there is no reporting structure
• 55:42
  listed so who
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_00: actually are you accountable primarily to the portfolio companies are you
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: accountable internally um what does that look like
• 55:52
  when when we talk about meritocracy if you're going to have
• 55:54
  performance reviews and
• 55:55
  those are opportunities to get to grow and to get raises are
• 55:59
  they looking for
• 56:00
  feedback from the portfolio companies as well is it just
• 56:02
  internal like i would just
• 56:03
  want to know so much more information about how i can really
• 56:07
  succeed at this
• 56:08
  company so that's kind of my guidance for the job seeker here
• 56:11
  what about the job
• 56:14
  seeker seeker what would you tell the person writing this job
• 56:17
  ad to maybe improve
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_01: upon it
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_00: No,
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think I would tell them to like take a CBD gummy,
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: clear your mind,
• 56:26
  clear your desk and just like take your time writing this job
• 56:31
  description because
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: there is a lot there and it's very like befuddling.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like I can't quite, it's hard to understand.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I think just like slow it down.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: Some of what you're saying is redundant.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_00: So look for patterns of what you're saying, group them together.
• 56:49
  and then just like edit edit edit you know like like coco
• 56:54
  chanel said before you
• 56:55
  leave the house take off one accessory like that needs to
• 56:59
  happen to this job
• 57:00
  posting you need to just clean it a little bit um and otherwise
• 57:06
  i mean it's it was
• 57:07
  fun and exciting i would also tell them be careful what you're
• 57:10
  looking for because
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: it does seem like they're gonna be
• 57:15
  some junior people here and that could be detrimental to the
• 57:18
  portfolio companies.
• 57:19
  You need people with like a real depth of experience versus
• 57:24
  like shallow breadth of
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_00: experience across a whole bunch of different things.
• 57:28
  So yeah,
• 57:29
  I would say just slow it down and edit,
• 57:32
  edit within an inch of its life.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_00: What about you?
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for me, for me, I would reevaluate the business risk of the model.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_01: And like this,
• 57:43
  this really kind of that exchange we had earlier talking about
• 57:47
  how you wanted a
• 57:50
  you're basically hiring someone who could be an advisor in
• 57:53
  different functional
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_01: areas that have quite a bit of exposure sometimes.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: But you wanted that kind of packaged into one person.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then from an agency standpoint, you want the you want the person
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_01: to be able to provide advice,
• 58:06
  that creates a liability risk in the middle because it's not a
• 58:10
  direct employee of
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: the portfolio company,
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_01: it's an agency.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: So you can be sued if your employee fucks something up.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_01: So think about that very, very carefully.
• 58:21
  And if you're still like sold on doing that and you're still
• 58:24
  sold on structuring
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_01: the role this way,
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_01: then you're gonna hire a person who you want to be able to do A,
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: B and C even though it creates risk.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_01: Spend a lot of time on risk mitigation and hire a good lawyer,
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_01: not someone who is also your accountant.
• 58:42
  Don't employ the same strategy for your own business if you're
• 58:45
  still sold on this.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's such a good point.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_00: No, and you bring up a good point.
• 58:50
  Like when I'm on calls with portfolio company CEOs and I'm
• 58:55
  helping them with an HR
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_00: matter,
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_00: I need to be able to have the answer for them.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_00: immediately.
• 59:00
  And I don't know that they're able to find someone who can do
• 59:02
  that with HR and with
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_00: legal and with compliance and with like finance.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I agree.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think that it's, it's quite risky what they're doing.
• 59:11
  And it would be interesting to know whether or not this is an
• 59:13
  established company
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_00: or brand new,
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_00: like we suspect,
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_00: or at least I do.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_00: What about a full idea?
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's a cool idea.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_00: This company, this business model, it's a good idea.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_01: I absolutely love it.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_01: if I was if I was a little bit earlier on in my career,
• 59:30
  like I'm I'm kind of at the age now where I'm a little bit
• 59:32
  beyond the whole I want
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_01: to be on call 24 hours a day and like put out fires 24 hours a day.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_01: There was a time in my life when I found that validating.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_01: But that time is behind me.
• 59:45
  But if I was if I was younger and still in that phase of my
• 59:47
  life,
• 59:47
  yeah,
• 59:47
  I'd jump on this.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_00: Once upon a time, I wanted to have my own HR consulting firm.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_00: I even had the name, feel free anyone if they want to steal it.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think I still have the domain though.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_00: So just DM me, but start me up consulting.
• 1:00:01
  And basically it's doing HR for startups because usually that's
• 1:00:06
  the last role that
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_00: they hire for.
• 1:00:08
  And it leads to a whole bunch of mistakes down the road that
• 1:00:11
  they may not realize
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_00: in the beginning,
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_00: but helping startups with their HR needs.
• 1:00:16
  processes,
• 1:00:17
  everything,
• 1:00:17
  and then I exit by hiring their first HR hire for them.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good idea.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I don't have, who has the energy for that?
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_00: But it's a good business model.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_00: I do like what they're trying to do.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_00: I get it.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's very near to the work that I'm doing,
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_00: so I can see what they're trying to do,
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_00: but I think that it's a little bit risky.
• 1:00:40
  And the impact will be outsized if they're successful at like
• 1:00:43
  helping a lot of
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_01: their portfolio companies.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like this is a leveraged model that creates outsized impact.
• 1:00:48
  You know,
• 1:00:49
  if you're doing this for like one business,
• 1:00:51
  you're helping one business.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_01: If you're doing this for like 20 in a leveraged way,
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_01: and then each of those 20 businesses is hiring,
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_01: they're adding jobs,
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_01: they're creating economic growth.
• 1:01:01
  Like your little kind of nexus point of this where you like
• 1:01:04
  kick it all off,
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_01: making a huge impact on the world.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I really hope that these folks are successful.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_01: Good luck to them.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_00: If you had to score this job posting out of a 10, what would you give it?
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_01: Three and a half.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, no way.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's the lowest.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 1:01:29
  I and it's hard for me to say that because I do genuinely hope
• 1:01:37
  that these folks are
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_01: successful.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_01: I want them to be successful.
• 1:01:42
  But there was there was too much intermingled weird stuff that
• 1:01:46
  was fundamental.
• 1:01:48
  like fundamentally a problem in this job post so like I say
• 1:01:53
  that with a very heavy
• 1:01:54
  heart yeah like three three and a half it was unclear what the
• 1:01:58
  person will actually
• 1:02:00
  be doing there was structural systemic risk in the way that the
• 1:02:04
  role was structured
• 1:02:06
  we don't know if if we're going to be interviewed by one of the
• 1:02:10
  clients or by
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_01: another person in the organization there's five interviews
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_01: There's a bunch of benefits that are wrapped in very showy,
• 1:02:24
  flowery language to try and make them more than what they
• 1:02:28
  actually are in terms of
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_01: real value to the employee.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I get that,
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_01: especially if you're a new business,
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_01: like you don't have the resources to kind of put like
• 1:02:40
  money into your total comp programs you don't so you've got to
• 1:02:43
  be creative i get
• 1:02:44
  that but this this was a little much like some of those perks
• 1:02:47
  not perks the equity
• 1:02:48
  thing for instance yeah which what equity is it um yeah so i
• 1:02:54
  this was not a good
• 1:02:55
  job posting for me but if they rewrote it using some of the
• 1:02:59
  kind of feedback that
• 1:03:00
  we are talking about like in this for the last hour uh maybe it
• 1:03:04
  would be better and
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_01: i'd give it a better score
• 1:03:06
  this is this is a long one and this is um your lowest score if
• 1:03:10
  i recall correctly
• 1:03:12
  which is yeah you were like green flag green flag um but it's
• 1:03:15
  funny because that's
• 1:03:16
  how it is right like you start to read a job posting and then
• 1:03:19
  as you get into the
• 1:03:19
  nitty-gritty you're like oh dang this isn't as this isn't as
• 1:03:23
  great as i thought it
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_00: was going to be um which is
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it kind of how I feel about it, too.
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_00: I like I like what they're trying to do.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_00: I like their enthusiasm.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_00: I would say probably like a five or something like that.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_00: But I agree there's a lot that needs to be reworked here.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious and interested in following this company as well,
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_00: just to see how they do learning a little bit more about them.
• 1:03:49
  i would say about a five they need to work on some things they
• 1:03:52
  got some stuff they
• 1:03:53
  did some stuff well they were super transparent like i feel
• 1:03:55
  like i have to give
• 1:03:56
  them bonus points for being really transparent about what what
• 1:03:59
  it is um that
• 1:04:00
  they're trying to do here and uh yeah so like for spirit and
• 1:04:05
  intent i would say
• 1:04:07
  that it's a five out of ten for that one well shall we consider
• 1:04:13
  this thing roasted
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_00: yes done
• 1:04:19
  Thanks for hanging out with us on Roast the Post,
• 1:04:21
  the story behind the bullet points.
• 1:04:23
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• 1:04:26
  helped you understand why
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_01: some postings feel like structural puzzles waiting to happen,
• 1:04:31
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• 1:04:37
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• 1:04:54
  We'll see you next time with another roasted post to lay out on
• 1:04:56
  the dinner table.