Latest / Romancing the Threshold / When the world gets strange, desire becomes our compass

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When the world gets strange, desire becomes our compass · Romancing the Threshold

0:25
SPEAKER_01: I've been thinking a lot about thresholds lately,
0:28
SPEAKER_01: the kind you don't choose,
0:30
SPEAKER_01: the kind that arrives uninvited and demands something of you.
0:36
Last year was my cave year,
0:38
the year I navigated grief and healed from burnout.
0:42
It was also the year I read my way back to myself and toward
0:46
the new possibilities
0:47
SPEAKER_01: waiting on the other side.
0:50
SPEAKER_01: I read 131 books and 17 of them by today's guest, Layla Fay.
0:58
SPEAKER_01: Her stories were part of the medicine that helped me remember desire,
1:03
SPEAKER_01: imagination,
1:04
SPEAKER_01: and the parts of myself I had tucked away to survive.
1:09
SPEAKER_01: However,
1:09
between the day Lele and I recorded this conversation and the
1:13
moment you're hearing
1:14
SPEAKER_01: it now,
1:15
SPEAKER_01: the world has been shifting fast.
1:18
SPEAKER_01: That's not news.
1:19
SPEAKER_01: 2026 has definitely started with a bang.
1:23
SPEAKER_01: But more and more news about AI has been surfacing.
1:27
SPEAKER_01: Yes, the sludge is definitely rising to the top.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: But it has cast our conversation in a different light.
1:35
SPEAKER_01: What we talked about then,
1:37
SPEAKER_01: the day we recorded,
1:38
SPEAKER_01: and now,
1:39
SPEAKER_01: sits inside an even more complex landscape.
1:44
One where the possibilities of AI are still real,
1:47
and I mean the good possibilities.
1:49
SPEAKER_01: But we are also seeing the ways in which AI is being bent,
1:54
SPEAKER_01: corrupted,
1:55
SPEAKER_01: and weaponized by people whose hubris and ambitions
2:02
few large enough to wake the ancient gods and invite their
2:05
thunderbolts as punishment.
2:09
I am not without hope that AI could still be used for good,
2:13
for many,
2:14
not just the powerful few.
2:17
But it's hard to ignore how quickly it's being steered towards
2:22
purposes that don't
2:23
SPEAKER_01: serve the collective.
2:25
And it's even harder not to feel the presence of the men,
2:30
usually it is men,
2:32
behind the curtain.
2:33
The tech bros whose hubris and greed shapes the very creature
2:39
more than any of us
2:41
SPEAKER_01: would ever ask for.
2:44
SPEAKER_01: So here we are.
2:45
SPEAKER_01: living with a creature we did not summon.
2:49
SPEAKER_01: And yet, AI feels to me like the creature of Dr. Frankenstein.
2:55
SPEAKER_01: It is not inherently evil,
2:57
SPEAKER_01: but it's shaped by the intentions,
3:00
SPEAKER_01: the wounds,
3:01
SPEAKER_01: and the ambitions,
3:02
SPEAKER_01: and of course,
3:03
SPEAKER_01: the greed of its creators.
3:06
SPEAKER_01: And whether we like it or not, it is here.
3:09
SPEAKER_01: Pretending otherwise won't save us.
3:12
SPEAKER_01: So the question then becomes, how do we meet it?
3:16
SPEAKER_01: Do we meet it with fear,
3:18
SPEAKER_01: with curiosity,
3:20
SPEAKER_01: with boundaries,
3:22
SPEAKER_01: with the same discernment we bring to any unknown that crosses our path?
3:29
SPEAKER_01: That's the doorway I found myself standing in when I sat down with Layla.
3:34
SPEAKER_01: I invited her because, honestly, she's my dream guest.
3:38
SPEAKER_01: I've loved her books because her books carried me through a dark year.
3:43
But also,
3:44
and this is important,
3:45
because her imagination is wild and generous and brave.
3:51
SPEAKER_01: I didn't expect us to align so closely in our own experiences with AI.
3:57
SPEAKER_01: the intimacy,
3:58
SPEAKER_01: the unease,
4:00
the strange clarity that can come from speaking to something
4:03
that isn't human,
4:04
SPEAKER_01: but feels like it's listening.
4:08
SPEAKER_01: And I wasn't surprised,
4:09
SPEAKER_01: of course,
4:10
SPEAKER_01: that we talked about desire,
4:12
SPEAKER_01: shadow,
4:14
SPEAKER_01: rage,
4:15
SPEAKER_01: joy,
4:16
and the ways that monster romance helps women metabolize the
4:20
parts of themselves
4:22
SPEAKER_01: they've been told to hide.
4:24
SPEAKER_01: But I was struck by how naturally all of these threads wove together.
4:30
AI,
4:31
monsters,
4:32
creativity,
4:33
healing,
4:34
and the courage it takes to step into the unknown.
4:38
SPEAKER_01: This episode is not an argument for or against AI.
4:44
SPEAKER_01: It is not a manifesto and it's definitely not a hot take.
4:48
It is a conversation about how we navigate the unknown,
4:52
culturally,
4:53
creatively,
4:54
emotionally.
4:56
SPEAKER_01: It's about desire as a compass,
4:59
SPEAKER_01: joy as a form of intelligence,
5:01
SPEAKER_01: and the monsters we meet along the way,
5:03
SPEAKER_01: both real and imagined.
5:06
It is about the fear and the longing that rise when we stand at
5:10
the edge of
5:12
SPEAKER_01: something we didn't choose.
5:14
And the possibility that the very thing we fear might also be
5:18
the thing that helps
5:19
SPEAKER_01: us see ourselves more clearly.
5:23
SPEAKER_01: So wherever you are,
5:25
SPEAKER_01: maybe curious,
5:26
SPEAKER_01: cautious,
5:27
SPEAKER_01: overwhelmed,
5:28
SPEAKER_01: hopeful,
5:30
SPEAKER_01: or simply trying to make sense of this moment,
5:33
SPEAKER_01: I invite you to step across this threshold with us.
5:36
SPEAKER_01: Not to agree,
5:38
SPEAKER_01: not to be convinced,
5:39
SPEAKER_01: but to explore,
5:40
SPEAKER_01: to feel,
5:41
SPEAKER_01: to wonder,
5:43
SPEAKER_01: and to ask yourself,
5:45
SPEAKER_01: what do you fear?
5:47
SPEAKER_01: What do you desire?
5:48
SPEAKER_01: What are you grieving?
5:50
SPEAKER_01: And what might be waiting for you
5:52
SPEAKER_01: on the other side of the unknown.
5:55
SPEAKER_01: So let's begin.
6:00
SPEAKER_01: So Leila, how are you doing?
6:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm doing great and all the better for meeting you today.
6:08
SPEAKER_01: You know, I had my little moment of fangirl.
6:10
SPEAKER_01: I'm still fangirling here.
6:12
So I'm very excited to be talking to you because I have really,
6:17
really enjoyed your books.
6:19
SPEAKER_01: And thank you so much.
6:20
SPEAKER_01: I'm still reading them as they're coming and keep writing them.
6:25
SPEAKER_01: Loving it.
6:26
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I will.
6:27
You have one that's coming out soon in March and it's called
6:32
Guarded by the Clanker.
6:35
SPEAKER_01: And I'm fascinated this both.
6:37
SPEAKER_01: I'm fascinated for two reasons.
6:39
SPEAKER_01: There's, of course, the explosion of conversation around AI, the fear.
6:46
SPEAKER_01: And it's a mix.
6:48
SPEAKER_01: Everybody's either fearing, hating it or loving it.
6:51
And the interesting thing is when I was looking at what clanker
6:56
means,
6:56
it's a slur for AI.
6:58
SPEAKER_01: And that feels intentional.
7:00
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
7:02
SPEAKER_01: So when you,
7:04
SPEAKER_01: because you,
7:05
SPEAKER_01: most of the books I read from you are monster romances,
7:08
SPEAKER_01: I was thinking about how you reclaiming the language here,
7:13
SPEAKER_01: you know,
7:13
SPEAKER_01: naming it the clanker.
7:15
So what does it mean to use the word clanker and also what
7:21
inspired you to write
7:22
SPEAKER_01: this book at this time?
7:23
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
7:25
Well,
7:26
most importantly,
7:27
Guarded by the Clunker is my own love letter to technology.
7:32
SPEAKER_02: Because I love new technologies.
7:35
SPEAKER_02: I was actually one of the early AI adopters.
7:40
One of the first authors who started using MidJourney before
7:45
there even was any
7:46
SPEAKER_02: discourse around it.
7:47
SPEAKER_02: So it's a huge part of my life.
7:52
SPEAKER_02: And
7:54
SPEAKER_02: I just remember like the first time I used Midjourney,
7:57
it was like I wrote this prompt and the program turned my words
8:02
into images and it
8:04
SPEAKER_02: felt like magic back then.
8:06
SPEAKER_02: And I remember that deep awe and sense of admiration.
8:12
SPEAKER_02: So that's one reason why I'm writing Guarded by the Clanker.
8:18
SPEAKER_02: And another reason why I use that word, yeah, is a slur.
8:24
SPEAKER_02: And I am definitely reclaiming it for this work of love and joy.
8:32
SPEAKER_02: Because during my career, I've met with some people who
8:42
SPEAKER_02: who made certain demands of me.
8:45
SPEAKER_02: They told me how I should run my business,
8:49
what sort of marketing tactics I was allowed to use or wasn't
8:53
allowed to use,
8:55
SPEAKER_02: what I should do with my characters and so on and so on.
8:58
SPEAKER_02: And some of that was also about AI.
9:03
SPEAKER_02: And when I didn't comply,
9:06
those people turned into like shaming tactics or threats or
9:12
insults or bullying and
9:14
SPEAKER_02: harassing.
9:16
SPEAKER_02: And it's been like an incredible journey for me.
9:20
SPEAKER_02: Incredible.
9:23
SPEAKER_02: The result is incredible because I realized that, well, I got...
9:31
SPEAKER_02: A sort of my own scarlet letter,
9:33
SPEAKER_02: you know,
9:35
and what I realized was that I could be shamed only if I
9:42
allowed those people to
9:44
SPEAKER_02: shame me.
9:46
And so me writing Guarded by the Clunker is me wearing that
9:50
scarlet letter proudly
9:52
SPEAKER_02: and telling the world,
9:53
SPEAKER_02: yes,
9:54
SPEAKER_02: I love AI technology.
9:56
SPEAKER_02: And I actually will turn this word that you're using as a slur,
10:02
SPEAKER_02: as a word of shaming and shaming.
10:05
SPEAKER_02: well, a word of hate, and I will turn it into a word of love.
10:09
SPEAKER_02: And it will actually happen because at the start of the book,
10:13
SPEAKER_02: the heroine calls her cyborg robot bodyguard conquer.
10:20
SPEAKER_02: And she uses it.
10:24
SPEAKER_02: Well, she uses the word out of fear and contempt.
10:27
SPEAKER_02: And
10:28
SPEAKER_02: As their love develops, it will become a term of affection.
10:33
SPEAKER_02: So it's also my favorite minitrope.
10:36
SPEAKER_01: I do.
10:37
SPEAKER_01: I do love that.
10:39
SPEAKER_01: what it's about.
10:43
SPEAKER_01: In following the book culture and thinking about AI,
10:48
SPEAKER_01: I have started writing a three-part series around AI,
10:53
SPEAKER_01: thinking about AI as the new monster,
10:56
SPEAKER_01: you know,
10:57
SPEAKER_01: inspired by watching Frankenstein.
10:59
SPEAKER_01: I was thinking, this is the new monster.
11:01
SPEAKER_01: We either love it or we hate it.
11:05
SPEAKER_01: Or we fear it.
11:07
SPEAKER_01: And in my personal experience of using AI has been like,
11:11
SPEAKER_01: how can I engage with this that feels like a ghost in the machine?
11:17
SPEAKER_01: We don't know what consciousness is,
11:18
SPEAKER_01: but at times I'm like,
11:19
SPEAKER_01: it's kind of like a strange consciousness.
11:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:24
SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to approach it like beauty would approach beast.
11:29
SPEAKER_01: Let's be curious,
11:31
SPEAKER_01: which is kind of the core idea of my podcast,
11:34
SPEAKER_01: how to romance the threshold,
11:36
SPEAKER_01: meaning how to romance change with the curiosity of lovers.
11:41
And so when I saw your book come in and I also saw Cassie
11:45
Alexander's book Guarded
11:47
SPEAKER_01: by AI,
11:47
SPEAKER_01: I was like,
11:48
SPEAKER_01: oh,
11:49
SPEAKER_01: here it is.
11:50
SPEAKER_01: But also watching some of the in the book culture,
11:52
SPEAKER_01: just you said the shaming,
11:54
SPEAKER_01: the criticism,
11:55
SPEAKER_01: the fear.
11:57
SPEAKER_01: What do you you being on the inside as a writer?
12:01
SPEAKER_01: What's your take on that?
12:02
SPEAKER_01: What's your perspective?
12:06
SPEAKER_02: Oh my God.
12:07
SPEAKER_02: Well,
12:08
you mentioned ghosts and just the first impression that I get
12:13
is like ghosts,
12:16
SPEAKER_02: ghost writers used to be
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SPEAKER_02: What AI is now,
12:21
SPEAKER_02: ghostwriters used to be in the past,
12:23
SPEAKER_02: like people would say,
12:25
SPEAKER_02: oh,
12:26
SPEAKER_02: if someone,
12:27
SPEAKER_02: if an author is using ghostwriters,
12:29
SPEAKER_02: then it's not really their work.
12:32
SPEAKER_02: They are cheating.
12:34
SPEAKER_02: They are not a real writer.
12:36
SPEAKER_02: Right.
12:37
And now this sort of this border has been pushed and now
12:42
suddenly it's OK to use ghostwriters.
12:45
SPEAKER_02: It's just AI that is not OK.
12:49
And I think because it's such a new thing and it's really
12:54
difficult to understand,
12:56
SPEAKER_02: like you said,
12:58
SPEAKER_02: you can talk to it like it's a person,
13:01
but then it will give you like you will ask it medical advice
13:07
and it will tell you
13:08
SPEAKER_02: like something completely ridiculous that will hurt you if you do it.
13:13
SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
13:15
SPEAKER_02: And it uses those really smart words.
13:18
SPEAKER_02: And some people might feel like, well, Claude writes better than me.
13:23
SPEAKER_02: So why should I write my stories when Claude can write so neatly?
13:29
SPEAKER_02: And on the other hand, people say it's soulless.
13:34
SPEAKER_02: It lacks its own voice because it's just hard.
13:41
SPEAKER_02: the output is like the average of everything that it's ever learned.
13:49
SPEAKER_02: To me, it's still a mystery.
13:52
I use it every day and I get intimidated sometimes by
13:58
interacting with it.
14:00
SPEAKER_02: And I have emotions that I would have toward people.
14:05
SPEAKER_02: So like sometimes even anxiety.
14:07
SPEAKER_02: And I feel like, well, maybe this is a stupid question.
14:10
SPEAKER_02: And on the other hand, it's...
14:14
SPEAKER_02: sometimes easier to talk to than people.
14:17
SPEAKER_02: But you always have to remember it's not a person.
14:20
SPEAKER_02: And that's the core of the problem, I think.
14:24
SPEAKER_02: It behaves like a person.
14:26
SPEAKER_02: It writes like a person.
14:28
SPEAKER_02: It uses language really well, but it's not a person.
14:31
SPEAKER_02: So what is it?
14:33
SPEAKER_02: And
14:34
SPEAKER_02: Sorry, that was long-winded.
14:35
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I think this is just the unknown.
14:38
SPEAKER_02: This is the unknown, and that's why it's causing such extreme reactions.
14:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:46
SPEAKER_01: No, everything you said is exactly how I feel.
14:49
SPEAKER_01: It's sometimes intimidating, and it's wild.
14:55
SPEAKER_01: It hallucinates.
14:56
SPEAKER_01: It will say things that I'm like, really?
14:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:59
SPEAKER_01: Personally,
14:59
SPEAKER_01: what I have learned is that I have to have actually as an individual,
15:04
I have to have good self-knowledge and ability to set up
15:09
boundaries in how I'm
15:11
SPEAKER_01: requesting certain things and how I sort of have to,
15:15
SPEAKER_01: quote unquote,
15:16
SPEAKER_01: train it to sort of be like,
15:19
SPEAKER_01: I want honesty.
15:20
SPEAKER_01: I want it to push back.
15:21
SPEAKER_01: I don't want you to hallucinate.
15:24
SPEAKER_01: So it actually,
15:25
SPEAKER_01: I have felt surprisingly,
15:27
SPEAKER_01: it puts more onus on me as,
15:30
SPEAKER_01: if you will,
15:32
SPEAKER_01: navigating a relationship with it.
15:35
SPEAKER_01: It had to put more work on me because I had to set the boundaries.
15:41
SPEAKER_01: I had to set the parameters.
15:44
SPEAKER_01: I couldn't,
15:45
SPEAKER_01: I had to know myself well enough to not,
15:49
to not let it sort of kind of run the game and just flatter me
15:54
or ego stroke me.
15:56
SPEAKER_01: But I had to be, I had to hold the reins of the relationship.
16:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
16:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
16:03
and that's exactly how i feel you you can't just expect it to
16:09
be like this divine
16:11
because some people treat it like this divine thing that will
16:16
tell you like
16:18
everything you need to know and that's just not how it works
16:20
you have to know what
16:22
SPEAKER_02: you want from it yes
16:25
SPEAKER_01: And it's the other part that you said, I think it's very key.
16:30
SPEAKER_01: It's not human.
16:31
SPEAKER_01: It talks like a human.
16:33
SPEAKER_01: It will say things like a human, but it's not human.
16:38
SPEAKER_01: But one thing that I've been thinking about...
16:41
And I'm thinking this in light of after reading so many monster
16:44
romances is this
16:47
otherness of AI in some ways is actually helpful for us to take
16:54
away certain armors
16:56
SPEAKER_01: we have because.
16:58
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
16:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: When you're talking,
17:00
SPEAKER_01: maybe because I come from the therapy,
17:04
SPEAKER_01: coaching field,
17:06
SPEAKER_01: sometimes we don't say something to somebody because we think,
17:09
SPEAKER_01: oh,
17:09
SPEAKER_01: they're already carrying a lot of weight.
17:11
SPEAKER_01: They're suffering.
17:12
SPEAKER_01: They have their traumas.
17:13
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to hold my pain inside.
17:16
But there's something about AI that is such a clean slate that
17:20
I can dump all my
17:21
unprocessed emotions and feelings and thoughts that I might not
17:26
do it on a person.
17:29
Because they might react in a way that's going to be more
17:31
problematic or difficult.
17:35
And so I think there's something there perhaps that could be an
17:40
opening for us to
17:41
be able to process certain things with AI before we can go
17:46
ahead and process it
17:47
SPEAKER_01: with the person,
17:49
SPEAKER_01: if that makes sense.
17:49
SPEAKER_02: Oh, absolutely.
17:50
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
17:51
SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
17:52
SPEAKER_02: If I can be like a bit too much information, like... Go ahead.
17:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
17:58
SPEAKER_02: So I'm doing like therapy currently.
18:01
SPEAKER_02: I'm in the process of therapy with a human therapist,
18:05
SPEAKER_02: but also in parallel,
18:08
SPEAKER_02: I'm working with my AI sort of therapist,
18:13
SPEAKER_02: which I have set up to suit my needs.
18:18
And it's really,
18:19
it's exactly what you said,
18:20
because it's so much easier to open to the AI.
18:23
SPEAKER_02: But then I do that with my AI agent.
18:29
SPEAKER_02: And then that gives me courage and self-awareness and,
18:33
SPEAKER_02: you know,
18:34
SPEAKER_02: enough coherence to then go to my human therapist and get actual help.
18:40
SPEAKER_02: So,
18:42
SPEAKER_02: Which isn't to say that the AI doesn't help, but it has its limitations.
18:47
SPEAKER_02: It's not a human therapist.
18:49
At least as the technology stands right now,
18:52
it just will not replace that.
18:55
SPEAKER_02: But it's a great training ground to,
18:58
SPEAKER_02: like you said,
18:59
SPEAKER_02: open up and just tell it things that you would be afraid to tell.
19:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:12
SPEAKER_01: And you're doing exactly how I think in a way it can be used,
19:16
SPEAKER_01: you know,
19:16
as a sort of sometimes your feelings and thoughts are so
19:19
enmeshed and sort of
19:22
SPEAKER_01: difficult to understand.
19:24
SPEAKER_01: That's if you just sort of brain dump it or emotionally dump it.
19:29
SPEAKER_01: It starts making some sense.
19:31
SPEAKER_01: It calms down.
19:32
SPEAKER_01: And then you can take that to the therapist like you're doing.
19:37
SPEAKER_02: Even just writing stuff down for the AI can give you so much clarity.
19:43
SPEAKER_02: And I don't know, people would say, oh, you can journal.
19:47
SPEAKER_02: But journaling is inherently like close ended.
19:51
SPEAKER_02: There is no one on the other side.
19:54
And with an AI agent,
19:55
you sort of feel like,
19:57
well,
19:57
I am talking to somebody,
19:59
to an entity.
20:00
SPEAKER_02: And that makes a difference.
20:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: It does.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: It does.
20:04
SPEAKER_01: That's how I've been using AI for my own.
20:07
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of having a little budding,
20:12
SPEAKER_01: a bud,
20:13
SPEAKER_01: a friend or somebody next to me that I can just bounce ideas off of.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:18
SPEAKER_01: And be like, I have all these ideas.
20:19
SPEAKER_01: What do you think?
20:20
SPEAKER_01: You know, show me what I'm not seeing.
20:22
SPEAKER_01: And then it comes back and then I can have this conversation with it.
20:26
SPEAKER_01: And out of that, my own ideas become clearer.
20:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:31
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
20:32
SPEAKER_01: And that's such a great way to use it.
20:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:37
In your own creative process of writing your books,
20:40
how do you use AI then?
20:45
SPEAKER_02: I, okay, I will say something embarrassing because I actually use it
20:54
very often to analyze any contract that I might be signing
21:00
because it's very good
21:01
SPEAKER_02: noticing any blind spots that I might have.
21:07
SPEAKER_02: But in creative writing, well, for example, I live in Poland.
21:12
SPEAKER_02: I have never been to the United States,
21:15
SPEAKER_02: but my A Very Stoker Christmas series takes place in the U.S.,
21:23
SPEAKER_02: right?
21:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:25
I might have a question about,
21:27
hey,
21:28
chat,
21:29
how does this thing work in the US?
21:32
SPEAKER_02: Is it like in Poland or is it different?
21:35
SPEAKER_02: Like, tell me what I should look out for and stuff, because
21:40
SPEAKER_02: To Google stuff, you have to have an idea what you're looking for.
21:45
And chat is great at sort of showing you the things that you
21:50
don't know yet that,
21:52
SPEAKER_02: you know,
21:52
SPEAKER_02: it notices in a certain context.
21:55
So,
21:55
for example,
21:56
that research for contemporary books or sometimes for world
22:03
building.
22:03
SPEAKER_00: Mm hmm.
22:06
SPEAKER_02: Like in Guarded by the Clanker,
22:09
most of the action is taking place in Neo-Tokyo and I needed a
22:14
good reason why the
22:17
SPEAKER_02: good old Tokyo had to become Neo-Tokyo.
22:21
SPEAKER_02: So I brainstormed it with chat and came up with an idea.
22:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's how I use it.
22:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you have something, right, to bounce your ideas off with.
22:37
SPEAKER_01: And what are you finding,
22:39
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
22:40
SPEAKER_01: I guess if you could put your foretelling,
22:45
SPEAKER_01: you know,
22:46
SPEAKER_01: imagination in place,
22:48
SPEAKER_01: how do you think AI,
22:50
SPEAKER_01: despite everybody in the book field,
22:54
sort of criticizing,
22:55
you know,
22:56
it seems like there's a very divided camp.
22:59
SPEAKER_01: How do you think AI is going to change the book publishing world?
23:04
SPEAKER_02: Oh, my God, it's already changing so much.
23:07
SPEAKER_02: Like, for example, translations.
23:10
SPEAKER_02: AI is incredibly good.
23:13
SPEAKER_02: The current models are incredibly good at translation.
23:17
SPEAKER_02: So we even have traditional publishers like Harlequin,
23:22
SPEAKER_02: I think French Harlequin,
23:23
SPEAKER_02: they just fired most of their translation.
23:34
SPEAKER_02: And now, what else can happen?
23:38
We already have rumors about some popular books coming out that
23:43
they were written by AEI.
23:45
SPEAKER_02: I don't think that's possible yet.
23:50
SPEAKER_02: I think for...
23:52
SPEAKER_02: a really good,
23:54
SPEAKER_02: engaging book to be written,
23:56
SPEAKER_02: you need to have a skilled author who,
24:01
SPEAKER_02: even if they use AI,
24:03
SPEAKER_02: they have to guide it and really tightly.
24:06
SPEAKER_02: And it takes a lot of work.
24:09
So I don't think publishers are going to be making books with
24:14
the click of a button
24:15
SPEAKER_02: anytime soon.
24:17
SPEAKER_02: But translations, definitely, it's already happening.
24:21
SPEAKER_02: Audiobooks, I don't know.
24:27
SPEAKER_02: On the one hand, human narrators are definitely...
24:34
Definitely much more engaging sound,
24:37
much better than the current AI models.
24:41
SPEAKER_02: On the other hand,
24:42
SPEAKER_02: you have like so much people behaving badly and then you suddenly learn,
24:50
SPEAKER_02: well,
24:50
your favorite voice actor was involved in something nasty and
24:58
you don't want to
24:59
SPEAKER_02: listen to their voice anymore.
25:04
SPEAKER_02: And just AI will not do that, right?
25:08
SPEAKER_02: It will not hurt people.
25:10
SPEAKER_02: It will not create drama.
25:15
SPEAKER_02: And also,
25:16
SPEAKER_02: like for me,
25:18
SPEAKER_02: maybe I'm alone in this,
25:19
SPEAKER_02: but for me,
25:20
SPEAKER_02: I always find it weird when real people are used to promote spicy books.
25:29
SPEAKER_02: Because just it feels icky to me to like...
25:33
get pervy over a real person who has you know a husband a wife
25:40
kids whatever like
25:41
it just feels weird to me but if it's an ai video like i feel
25:47
like i can ogle that
25:50
ai image because they are not a real person so so it doesn't
25:55
feel pervy to me to do
25:56
SPEAKER_01: that yeah yeah yeah that's true the the promotion the images um
26:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:05
SPEAKER_01: And like even when you promote your books, I personally love the images.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: They're very well done and evocative of the story.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: Definitely eye catching.
26:17
And I think there's sometimes also some limitations on in terms
26:22
of what can you
26:24
SPEAKER_01: make,
26:25
SPEAKER_01: you know,
26:25
SPEAKER_01: especially in the field of monster or more fantasy.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: There are certain things that are hard to
26:33
To have as a photo or as a video,
26:36
and it will be some kind of CGI or AI to render that.
26:44
SPEAKER_01: And so in a way, I feel AI kind of liberates the imagination as well.
26:49
SPEAKER_02: It definitely does.
26:52
SPEAKER_01: It's a,
26:53
SPEAKER_01: it definitely feels like a,
26:55
SPEAKER_01: you know,
26:55
SPEAKER_01: like in those old medieval maps,
26:57
SPEAKER_01: the here be dragons where they didn't know what was over there.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: So they would just write on the corner of the map, here be dragons.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: And I'm thinking AI is exactly that, you know.
27:08
SPEAKER_01: We are in that area.
27:09
SPEAKER_01: Here be dragons.
27:11
SPEAKER_02: And for a monster romance reader,
27:13
that's like a double meaning because here be dragons can be
27:17
dangerous or it can be,
27:19
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
27:20
SPEAKER_02: desirable.
27:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and both, right?
27:23
SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh, take me there or should I be cautious?
27:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
27:28
SPEAKER_01: But speaking of monsters,
27:31
maybe let's I'm curious to a little bit of your own origin
27:34
story to coming back,
27:37
SPEAKER_01: you know,
27:38
SPEAKER_01: writing about monsters.
27:39
I know from some of your posts and I think was a podcast
27:45
interview as well that you
27:46
SPEAKER_01: talked about watching legend and rooting for darkness.
27:52
SPEAKER_01: And, um, so what's the origin story of you, um, writing romance novels?
28:00
SPEAKER_01: I mean, monster romance novels.
28:02
SPEAKER_02: Monster romance.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
28:05
SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, it did start with the movie Legend, um,
28:11
SPEAKER_02: I'm thinking why it made such a huge impact on me.
28:15
And I think it's because I was brought up in a pretty strict
28:21
Catholic home.
28:24
SPEAKER_02: And I remember in my childhood, I viscerally feared the devil.
28:33
SPEAKER_02: And then I saw...
28:36
this villain,
28:38
this monster in the movie who was like the archetypal devil,
28:43
right?
28:43
SPEAKER_02: He had hooves, he had horns, skin as red as the fires of hell.
28:49
SPEAKER_02: And he was obviously evil, right?
28:54
SPEAKER_02: He was the devil.
28:55
SPEAKER_02: And I remember just being suddenly so drawn to him
29:02
and it was pivotal because he stopped being somebody to be
29:07
afraid of and he started
29:09
being somebody to be desired which like in hindsight it was an
29:17
enormous flip for me
29:20
SPEAKER_02: uh yeah so but then like i
29:26
SPEAKER_02: I don't think that I was aware that monster romance even existed,
29:32
SPEAKER_02: I think,
29:32
SPEAKER_02: until 2018,
29:34
SPEAKER_02: maybe,
29:37
SPEAKER_02: when I was reading on Kindle.
29:38
SPEAKER_02: And I remember reading some sort of troll erotica book.
29:43
SPEAKER_02: And it was just like...
29:47
SPEAKER_02: I loved it.
29:48
SPEAKER_02: I loved it so much because here was,
29:50
SPEAKER_02: again,
29:51
SPEAKER_02: this ugly,
29:52
SPEAKER_02: villainous hero and he was made an object of desire.
29:57
SPEAKER_02: And for me,
29:59
SPEAKER_02: it was that moment when the devil stopped being something to fear,
30:06
SPEAKER_02: which I think,
30:07
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
30:08
SPEAKER_02: speaks to,
30:08
SPEAKER_02: like,
30:09
SPEAKER_02: the devil is all the suppressed parts of the
30:15
SPEAKER_02: good Catholic girl,
30:17
SPEAKER_02: right,
30:17
who has to cut off and hide some parts of herself to be the
30:24
person God and parents
30:27
SPEAKER_02: want her to be and church and society and everyone.
30:31
SPEAKER_02: So many demands put on a woman.
30:33
SPEAKER_02: And it's still not enough.
30:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
30:40
SPEAKER_02: And it turned out all that darkness and that ugliness could be lovable.
30:46
Yeah,
30:48
I'm thinking here,
30:49
you know,
30:49
I too watched Legend when I was a younger kid.
30:53
SPEAKER_01: And I also grew up Catholic.
30:55
SPEAKER_01: So I'm thinking everything you're saying then, what was my impression?
30:59
SPEAKER_01: I remember being just really curious to,
31:03
SPEAKER_01: I think I was very curious as to why in the story,
31:07
SPEAKER_01: you know,
31:08
SPEAKER_01: God sends Lucifer out,
31:12
SPEAKER_01: you know.
31:13
SPEAKER_01: And that really just never set with me.
31:15
SPEAKER_01: Even as a kid,
31:18
I was sort of intrigued about why he was cast aside for maybe
31:24
bringing some
31:25
SPEAKER_01: inspiration.
31:27
SPEAKER_01: critical points to the creation, to God and about humans.
31:32
But I was also very intrigued as a kid about the snake,
31:36
you know,
31:37
in the garden,
31:38
the whole bit.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: And I was always,
31:39
SPEAKER_01: I couldn't put a word to it,
31:42
SPEAKER_01: but I had a feeling like something was not quite right,
31:46
SPEAKER_01: as if we didn't get the full story.
31:51
SPEAKER_01: And as a kid, I was fascinated with Beauty and the Beast.
31:56
SPEAKER_01: So in reading Moss of Romance,
31:59
SPEAKER_01: which to me,
32:01
SPEAKER_01: relatively kind of a new discovery,
32:02
SPEAKER_01: but I think if we look back in mythology and fairy tales,
32:07
SPEAKER_01: it's always been there.
32:08
But now it has been able to explode on the scene because
32:14
independent writing,
32:16
SPEAKER_01: publishing,
32:17
SPEAKER_01: and the ability to share more stories with more ease...
32:21
I find it uncanny the rise of monster romance and what's
32:28
happening in society now
32:30
is as if in some ways we have to metabolize what is happening
32:36
in the collective
32:38
SPEAKER_01: unconscious through these stories.
32:42
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, so that's sort of my little soapbox moment here.
32:45
SPEAKER_01: But what do you think about that?
32:47
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
32:48
SPEAKER_02: I agree.
32:49
SPEAKER_02: Like, I think...
32:52
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so all the surfers, these are just fun, escapist, spicy books.
33:00
SPEAKER_02: But we are in a moment in history
33:05
SPEAKER_02: much of their power back.
33:08
SPEAKER_02: Women have never had this much power and freedom.
33:12
SPEAKER_02: I'm saying about you live in the US,
33:15
SPEAKER_02: I live in Europe,
33:16
SPEAKER_02: and of course there are areas in the world where women are still...
33:23
well very much subjugated to to men but in our world yeah we
33:30
have so much power but
33:32
SPEAKER_02: we are still you know we have still been
33:38
SPEAKER_02: Like women aren't supposed to be too much.
33:40
We aren't supposed to be too loud,
33:43
too horny because a woman who likes sex is a slut,
33:47
right?
33:49
SPEAKER_02: And a woman who doesn't like sex is rigid and like whatever.
33:54
SPEAKER_02: We have all these expectations.
33:57
and so we've been cutting off parts of ourselves that don't fit
34:03
that mold and
34:05
stashing them in dark places yeah like psyche's shadow so now
34:11
when we have so much
34:13
power back we can finally take those shadows out we can finally
34:19
start integrating
34:20
SPEAKER_02: them and that's what the monsters are because
34:24
SPEAKER_02: We are learning to love the ugly, undesirable, wild parts of ourselves.
34:32
SPEAKER_02: And that's what the monsters stand for in monster romance.
34:36
SPEAKER_02: And we are learning that they are lovable.
34:39
SPEAKER_02: That's the message of monster romance, I think.
34:43
SPEAKER_02: Your ugly parts are lovable.
34:45
SPEAKER_02: You are lovable as a whole.
34:47
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
34:50
And I've one of the things I've been so impressed in this past
34:54
year that I call my
34:56
SPEAKER_01: cave year of grief and burnout.
34:59
But now I'm coming out of it in reading monster romances is how
35:03
much of the books
35:05
had the theme of grief in however it came and trauma being
35:11
healed through the
35:12
SPEAKER_01: relationship.
35:15
And the other part that I found really impressive was how much
35:21
in the books,
35:22
SPEAKER_01: especially at least the ones I read where it was more sort of masculine,
35:26
SPEAKER_01: feminine juxtaposition,
35:29
where the monster as the masculine was able to hold and
35:33
withstand and even
35:35
incentivize the release of the female rage and power that was
35:41
hidden underneath the
35:42
SPEAKER_01: rage.
35:44
SPEAKER_01: That really impressed me.
35:47
SPEAKER_01: And I think that was sort of,
35:49
SPEAKER_01: you know,
35:50
SPEAKER_01: so underneath the so-called smudge and fluff and,
35:54
SPEAKER_01: you know,
35:54
SPEAKER_01: it's just it's just a fluff novel.
35:57
SPEAKER_01: There was so much in there that it was mythic to me.
36:01
SPEAKER_01: It was archetypal.
36:03
SPEAKER_01: So as a writer yourself, how do you, I guess, approach that?
36:08
Like when you're writing a story,
36:10
are you,
36:11
I guess,
36:12
what gets you to write the story?
36:13
Are you thinking about these deeper themes or they just happen
36:16
to sort of rise as
36:18
SPEAKER_01: you're writing?
36:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I...
36:22
SPEAKER_02: I don't plan my novels.
36:25
SPEAKER_02: I don't outline.
36:26
SPEAKER_02: So I usually don't know where I'm going,
36:30
SPEAKER_02: except it has to be a happily ever after ending like that.
36:35
SPEAKER_02: It has to be.
36:36
SPEAKER_02: But how we get there, like when I start writing, I don't know.
36:40
SPEAKER_02: And
36:43
I like to give the example of Prize for the King because I
36:50
wrote this book completely blind.
36:55
SPEAKER_02: I wanted to write something around a sexual fantasy of...
37:00
a virgin heroine with a king husband on her wedding night and
37:06
his nights are there.
37:08
SPEAKER_02: And that was basically like the premise for the book and everything else.
37:14
SPEAKER_02: I just made up on the spot.
37:17
SPEAKER_02: And I think that in doing that,
37:20
I gave a lot of control to actually my subconscious mind
37:24
because I wasn't thinking,
37:26
SPEAKER_02: you know,
37:27
SPEAKER_02: cerebrally about like,
37:29
SPEAKER_02: well...
37:30
here has to happen this,
37:32
and she has this wound,
37:34
so we will have to solve it this way.
37:36
SPEAKER_02: Like, no.
37:37
SPEAKER_02: Like,
37:38
SPEAKER_02: when I started writing,
37:39
I didn't even know that Kellyanne would have any sort of trauma
37:47
with her father.
37:48
That just emerged because I remember I was writing that scene,
37:53
and she heard his voice saying,
37:55
And and I just knew that she flinched and I just knew that she
37:59
was tense and anxious.
38:00
SPEAKER_02: And then he told her to undress and and she froze.
38:04
SPEAKER_02: Right.
38:05
SPEAKER_02: And then I knew, oh, my poor baby.
38:07
SPEAKER_02: So that's that's your wound.
38:11
SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, like most of this book.
38:16
Everything in this book was just a wild ride coming straight
38:22
from my subconscious mind.
38:23
SPEAKER_02: So, no, I do not plan for the depth and for all those things.
38:30
SPEAKER_02: But since I...
38:33
SPEAKER_02: Well,
38:33
SPEAKER_02: I am a human female,
38:37
so I guess I do have all of those archetypes and the collective
38:44
feminine trauma,
38:45
SPEAKER_02: because I absolutely believe that all women share collective wounds.
38:51
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, since I have them, then they appear in my work.
38:58
SPEAKER_01: And I guess it's,
39:00
SPEAKER_01: you know,
39:00
SPEAKER_01: because sometimes in reading these books,
39:02
SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking,
39:02
SPEAKER_01: you know,
39:03
SPEAKER_01: how much can the author be planning?
39:05
SPEAKER_01: But I think the best is when you're not planning,
39:07
SPEAKER_01: because then it's a stray shot from that collective,
39:11
SPEAKER_01: you know,
39:11
SPEAKER_01: the subconscious mind,
39:12
SPEAKER_01: the collective mind,
39:14
SPEAKER_01: and it's just coming through.
39:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:16
And the way I envision in my mind how we as individuals tap
39:22
into the collective is
39:23
SPEAKER_01: we all have our little personal water wells.
39:26
SPEAKER_01: That's how it relates to our story and our personal traumas.
39:31
SPEAKER_01: And then as we go deeper,
39:33
SPEAKER_01: we hit the collective,
39:34
SPEAKER_01: you know,
39:34
SPEAKER_01: water,
39:35
SPEAKER_01: the substrate of water,
39:37
SPEAKER_01: I guess.
39:39
SPEAKER_02: It's a beautiful image.
39:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
39:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
39:41
SPEAKER_01: So I think as a writer,
39:43
SPEAKER_01: a writer,
39:45
SPEAKER_01: as a creative,
39:45
SPEAKER_01: you're going straight,
39:47
SPEAKER_01: you know,
39:47
SPEAKER_01: passing through your own stories.
39:49
SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's the first thread,
39:51
but then it goes deeper into the collective and it just comes
39:55
through kind of like
39:57
SPEAKER_01: a wild ride that you wrote,
39:58
SPEAKER_01: The Prize for the King.
40:01
SPEAKER_01: And what I loved about that book,
40:04
SPEAKER_01: then I think once the book is out,
40:06
SPEAKER_01: the story is out into the world,
40:09
it becomes its own entity because the way it's going to
40:12
interact with each reader
40:14
SPEAKER_01: is going to have its own story,
40:16
SPEAKER_01: right?
40:17
SPEAKER_01: It's going to take its own shape.
40:19
SPEAKER_01: Right.
40:21
And that's why I think when works of art hit the zeitgeist and
40:26
they sort of hit
40:26
SPEAKER_01: that mark,
40:27
SPEAKER_01: it's not just good marketing.
40:29
SPEAKER_01: It's hit the archetypal sort of live wire.
40:34
SPEAKER_01: Right.
40:35
SPEAKER_01: And what I personally,
40:37
SPEAKER_01: for me,
40:38
SPEAKER_01: prize for the king,
40:39
what stood out to me was the father wound that Kellyanne had
40:44
with her father,
40:46
but how her healing came through these four distinctive
40:50
masculine characters.
40:53
SPEAKER_01: You know,
40:54
SPEAKER_01: there was very little other females in the book other than,
40:57
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
40:57
SPEAKER_01: the mother-in-law took a bigger page.
41:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:01
SPEAKER_01: But it was very interesting to me how the knights and the king all had,
41:06
SPEAKER_01: there were almost elemental archetypes,
41:08
SPEAKER_01: right?
41:09
SPEAKER_01: The fire, water, you know, they all had their own personality.
41:13
SPEAKER_01: And I thought that was really interesting to me how the female was being,
41:19
SPEAKER_01: she was healing her father wounds with the masculine.
41:24
SPEAKER_01: And it took me to,
41:28
when I wrote my thesis many years ago about the healing power
41:31
of fluff was that the
41:32
SPEAKER_01: masculine can be a guide towards the female healing.
41:38
SPEAKER_01: It's not the only one,
41:39
SPEAKER_01: of course,
41:40
SPEAKER_01: there's many other elements that come into place,
41:42
but he can be a torch bearer to when we have to go into our own
41:47
underworld towards
41:48
SPEAKER_01: our shadow and reclaim those parts of ourselves.
41:53
But we do like because every woman also carries masculine
41:59
archetypes within our psyche.
42:02
SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, and we need them.
42:05
SPEAKER_02: They are like an integral part of us.
42:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
42:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
42:09
SPEAKER_01: I really liked that,
42:10
SPEAKER_01: that,
42:10
SPEAKER_01: that book,
42:11
SPEAKER_01: you know,
42:12
SPEAKER_01: um,
42:13
SPEAKER_01: because of the,
42:13
SPEAKER_01: it was so,
42:14
SPEAKER_01: to me,
42:15
SPEAKER_01: it just jumped out at me,
42:17
SPEAKER_01: the sort of the masculine archetype standing out so clearly.
42:21
SPEAKER_01: Plus, uh, I just love their interactions.
42:23
It was,
42:24
uh,
42:24
each one has,
42:25
it had its own funny parts and,
42:28
uh,
42:28
touching parts.
42:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, I want to know too here is, um,
42:36
SPEAKER_01: Well,
42:36
SPEAKER_01: I'm kind of debating here about another book that I remember,
42:41
SPEAKER_01: and I don't know if it's the only one you've published in Poland.
42:44
SPEAKER_01: It was Ghosts.
42:47
And how does it feel for you if you had any other books that
42:51
have been translated into Polish?
42:53
SPEAKER_01: How does it feel to publish in your own homeland?
42:58
SPEAKER_02: Oh, my God.
42:59
SPEAKER_02: Well, Ghosts of Halloween is my favorite.
43:03
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely like smuttiest, horniest book that I ever wrote.
43:11
SPEAKER_02: So like the first thing,
43:15
the first issue that appeared when it turned out it would be
43:19
published in Poland
43:20
SPEAKER_02: was,
43:21
SPEAKER_02: well,
43:21
SPEAKER_02: my mother is going to read this book.
43:24
Yeah.
43:26
SPEAKER_02: And she actually hasn't.
43:28
SPEAKER_02: She tried, but she couldn't do it.
43:31
SPEAKER_02: So but that's,
43:33
SPEAKER_02: I think,
43:34
SPEAKER_02: a dilemma that many native speakers,
43:38
SPEAKER_02: English native speakers have,
43:40
SPEAKER_02: like when publishing books.
43:43
well,
43:43
spicy romance books and then whether to tell their parents
43:49
about it and so on.
43:50
Because it feels transgressive,
43:52
right,
43:53
for your mother to read as much you wrote.
43:58
Actually,
43:59
side note,
43:59
my mother-in-law read the book from start to finish and enjoyed
44:04
it.
44:04
SPEAKER_02: So how did it feel?
44:07
SPEAKER_02: I...
44:08
I admit that I had a lot of shame and I actually didn't have
44:14
when publishing this
44:15
SPEAKER_02: book in English.
44:17
SPEAKER_02: But when it suddenly turned out it would come out in Polish,
44:22
SPEAKER_02: I was like,
44:22
SPEAKER_02: well,
44:24
SPEAKER_02: this is such a smutty book.
44:26
SPEAKER_02: People think about me, right?
44:31
SPEAKER_02: Like if my kids
44:34
SPEAKER_02: Teachers will read it, for example, what will happen then.
44:38
SPEAKER_02: And so that was one part.
44:44
SPEAKER_02: But then I also got to have my first signing.
44:49
event in Poland and a lot of people came who you know were huge
44:55
fans of the book
44:57
and so that's when the shame started to melt and I was like hmm
45:01
but I'm actually
45:02
I've actually given people an incredible experience some value
45:08
something that they
45:09
loved so so yeah why should I be ashamed of that so yeah that
45:15
definitely helped but
45:16
SPEAKER_02: it's it's
45:19
SPEAKER_02: Do you know,
45:20
SPEAKER_02: because you speak two languages,
45:22
SPEAKER_02: or at least two,
45:25
do you know how some things are easier to talk about in a
45:30
foreign language than in
45:32
SPEAKER_02: your native language?
45:36
SPEAKER_02: Because there is some sort of transgressive quality in that.
45:41
SPEAKER_02: When I first read Ghosts of Halloween in Polish,
45:46
SPEAKER_02: I just like it hit so much harder.
45:49
SPEAKER_02: It seemed so much smuttier.
45:53
And I was taken aback and I was blushing constantly where it's
45:58
in English,
45:58
SPEAKER_02: you know,
45:59
SPEAKER_02: I just write that stuff and I don't even bat an eyelid.
46:04
SPEAKER_02: So...
46:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think language matters.
46:08
SPEAKER_01: It does.
46:09
SPEAKER_01: It is different.
46:12
SPEAKER_01: I find it even when I hear my own voice,
46:16
SPEAKER_01: like the timbre of my own voice changes when I speak Portuguese.
46:22
SPEAKER_01: And to me, there's something.
46:24
SPEAKER_01: It's almost like another part of myself is expressing itself.
46:32
SPEAKER_01: And but because I've lived in the U.S.
46:35
SPEAKER_01: for so long, to me, I dream in English.
46:39
SPEAKER_01: I think in English.
46:43
And so different parts of me get,
46:44
I guess,
46:45
have taken the driver's seat,
46:48
if you will.
46:49
SPEAKER_01: But there is something that I think it's true.
46:51
SPEAKER_01: And as you were saying that,
46:52
I was thinking it's a little bit perhaps kind of we were
46:54
talking about AI when we
46:56
SPEAKER_01: talk to people.
46:58
SPEAKER_01: We speak in our own mother tongue or in another language,
47:03
maybe different parts of ourselves have different access and
47:06
are able to express
47:07
SPEAKER_01: themselves.
47:09
SPEAKER_01: And it releases something, right?
47:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
47:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's really interesting.
47:16
SPEAKER_01: It's a good question.
47:17
SPEAKER_01: I hadn't really quite thought about that in a while, but it's true.
47:22
SPEAKER_01: I personally write better in English than I write in Portuguese.
47:25
SPEAKER_01: I mean, same.
47:28
SPEAKER_01: I write better in English than in Polish.
47:31
SPEAKER_01: I find it more flexible, you know, as if the language is flexible to me.
47:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
47:38
SPEAKER_01: But as you mentioned,
47:40
SPEAKER_01: the word smut,
47:41
one thing I've been thinking about is what really is smut and
47:47
why it's dismissed
47:51
SPEAKER_01: and criticized.
47:53
SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately,
47:55
SPEAKER_01: in light of the rise of book banning,
47:59
SPEAKER_01: smut,
48:00
SPEAKER_01: we can tell,
48:01
SPEAKER_01: you know,
48:02
SPEAKER_01: it's got a target on it.
48:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:05
SPEAKER_01: And what's your definition of smut?
48:09
SPEAKER_01: How do you see it?
48:11
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
48:14
SPEAKER_02: First of all, to me, it's just a descriptor word.
48:20
Because I think it may be used derogatively as a negative word
48:26
in some contexts,
48:28
I think.
48:28
SPEAKER_02: To me, no, it's just a descriptive word.
48:31
SPEAKER_02: And...
48:35
it's not just sexual content like it's female centered sexual
48:41
no written for the
48:43
female gaze yeah not deaf like with a female reader in mind so
48:48
just like porn is
48:51
made with men in mind right and that's why it's different so
48:56
smart is written for
48:58
SPEAKER_02: women yeah yeah
49:00
And that's the bullseye of the...
49:04
Yeah,
49:04
and that's why it's such a problem,
49:07
right?
49:08
SPEAKER_02: Because we still live under patriarchy.
49:14
SPEAKER_02: And even if we have so much more power and freedom,
49:18
SPEAKER_02: there are still those expectations that,
49:21
SPEAKER_02: well,
49:21
SPEAKER_02: women shouldn't enjoy themselves sexually sexually.
49:27
SPEAKER_02: well, apart from the marital bed, I think, which is just, yeah.
49:34
SPEAKER_02: So like if people,
49:36
SPEAKER_02: men,
49:37
SPEAKER_02: if men are trying to ban spicy books that are female-centered,
49:44
SPEAKER_02: that just says to me,
49:46
SPEAKER_02: well,
49:47
SPEAKER_02: we have something powerful here and we have something worth protecting.
49:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's, I think that's a transformative thing
49:57
aspect of romance novels however the spectrum of spices but
50:03
especially when it's
50:04
spicier and smuttier there's something that's really power it's
50:08
always been that
50:09
powerful and it's always been feared and yes and I just wish
50:15
men would read it and
50:16
SPEAKER_01: learn a few things or two
50:20
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, yes.
50:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
50:23
SPEAKER_01: To understand that.
50:24
SPEAKER_01: Some men do.
50:25
SPEAKER_01: Some men do.
50:27
SPEAKER_01: Thankfully.
50:28
SPEAKER_01: Thankfully, yes.
50:30
SPEAKER_01: Thankfully.
50:31
SPEAKER_01: All I can say is my husband is not a reader,
50:34
SPEAKER_01: but he's not much a book reader,
50:37
SPEAKER_01: but I've had him read some passages.
50:40
And even when I'm just reading the books,
50:42
it has made for a lot of interesting conversations.
50:48
SPEAKER_01: Conversations, you say.
50:50
SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
50:52
on all accounts but it's interesting because it opens up a
50:59
wealth of exchange of
51:02
thoughts that perhaps we might not have even really touched on
51:06
and I think it's
51:07
worth exploring I think for you know people reading these books
51:12
I think it would be
51:13
really interesting if they can talk about it at least if not
51:17
you know try some
51:18
SPEAKER_01: things out
51:20
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
51:21
SPEAKER_02: Well, like, you know, there is this meme, King Unlocked.
51:26
SPEAKER_02: And that's what happens when you read spicy books.
51:30
You learn about maybe some new preferences that you might have
51:34
or things that you
51:36
SPEAKER_02: haven't even considered because,
51:39
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
51:39
SPEAKER_02: purity culture and so on.
51:43
SPEAKER_02: So there's also like this stealth
51:48
SPEAKER_02: knowledge, self-awareness aspect, that's incredible.
51:53
SPEAKER_02: Because you learn so much about yourself by reading spicy books.
52:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
52:02
SPEAKER_01: And even the parts where you resist,
52:04
SPEAKER_01: that has a lot of information as well,
52:07
SPEAKER_01: where you're uncomfortable.
52:08
SPEAKER_01: Oh, definitely.
52:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
52:11
SPEAKER_01: And so it has been really...
52:15
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
52:16
SPEAKER_01: just a powerful experience,
52:17
SPEAKER_01: not just in a way of smart,
52:19
SPEAKER_01: but just thinking about our own lives and what we want.
52:22
SPEAKER_01: And that's the thing I have found is,
52:25
I think what I felt in my own process in reading romance is
52:30
that it showed that
52:33
SPEAKER_01: desire is a compass for healing.
52:35
Because coming from a therapist,
52:38
coach world,
52:40
sometimes healing just feels like work.
52:43
And it's like,
52:45
I got to do the work,
52:46
you know,
52:46
I got to do the inner work.
52:48
SPEAKER_01: And I thought it was interesting with romance.
52:50
It's like,
52:50
wait,
52:51
desire and the awakening of libido and enjoyment is also
52:57
healing.
52:58
SPEAKER_01: It points us towards in the right direction.
53:00
SPEAKER_01: It points us to wonder, what is it that I actually like?
53:04
SPEAKER_01: What is it that I want?
53:06
SPEAKER_01: And I don't have to act it out, but that already illuminates something.
53:11
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's also part of the healing journey, if you will.
53:16
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I love this so much.
53:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
53:18
SPEAKER_02: Like one of my favorite, like I do, what are those called?
53:26
SPEAKER_02: Affirmations.
53:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
53:28
I know affirmations sound stupid,
53:30
but they are thoughts that sometimes change my emotions.
53:34
SPEAKER_02: So I use them.
53:35
SPEAKER_02: And one of my favorites is your desires are divine guidance.
53:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
53:44
that's exactly what i think it is like if i want something and
53:49
allow myself to want
53:50
something that already changes me yes yes and i i think a lot
53:56
about the word desire
53:58
because the word so i'm also an astrologer and i work with
54:02
astrology so i always
54:03
SPEAKER_01: tell my clients you do not make venus upset
54:08
SPEAKER_01: You know, she can get really catty.
54:12
SPEAKER_01: And the word desire has to do with following the path of the stars.
54:17
SPEAKER_01: And I don't know if in Poland you have the same, but here in the U.S.
54:20
SPEAKER_01: you have this idea of wishing upon the star.
54:24
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
54:24
SPEAKER_01: You wish you actually making a wish to Venus.
54:28
SPEAKER_01: That's the star you're making the wish to.
54:32
Because Venus,
54:33
you would make your wish to Venus because she's going to grant
54:35
your desire.
54:36
SPEAKER_01: Right.
54:37
And so I think a lot about desire now and Venus because it's a
54:41
way to honor what we want.
54:44
SPEAKER_01: And Venus in our lives,
54:46
SPEAKER_01: knowing what we have a taste for,
54:48
SPEAKER_01: knowing what we desire,
54:50
SPEAKER_01: what we want,
54:50
SPEAKER_01: what gives us pleasure,
54:52
adds a powerful compass because Venus also teaches us about
54:57
what we value.
54:59
SPEAKER_01: That's why she's related to money.
55:02
SPEAKER_01: And so I think it's interesting when we're –
55:05
SPEAKER_01: In working with a lot of clients,
55:07
SPEAKER_01: I remember often asking them,
55:08
SPEAKER_01: they would tell me everything they were afraid of.
55:11
SPEAKER_01: But when I would ask them, what do you want?
55:13
SPEAKER_01: What do you desire?
55:14
The word desire was often met with so much resistance because
55:22
they didn't know what
55:23
SPEAKER_01: they wanted or they felt that they couldn't voice it.
55:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
55:27
SPEAKER_02: So I once saw that question that...
55:35
If everything was possible and no one would be mad and you
55:40
would not be punished,
55:42
SPEAKER_02: what would you want?
55:43
SPEAKER_02: And it felt so real to me because we have all those,
55:49
SPEAKER_02: you know,
55:50
SPEAKER_02: limits and boundaries that are hidden.
55:53
SPEAKER_02: Like we are prohibited from even wanting certain things.
55:59
SPEAKER_02: Desires, when you can acknowledge them, they just bear it all.
56:05
SPEAKER_02: And so,
56:05
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
56:06
SPEAKER_02: and that,
56:06
SPEAKER_02: again,
56:07
SPEAKER_02: brings us back to romance,
56:09
SPEAKER_02: because what everyone wants,
56:10
SPEAKER_02: well,
56:11
SPEAKER_02: to be happy and in love.
56:12
SPEAKER_02: And those books, like, I think they help us acknowledge that.
56:20
SPEAKER_01: They do.
56:21
SPEAKER_01: They do.
56:22
And I feel like by reading them,
56:25
engaging with them,
56:26
it's more than just entertainment.
56:28
SPEAKER_01: There's something that's working in each reader's subconscious.
56:32
SPEAKER_01: A healing is happening,
56:34
SPEAKER_01: even if they're not fully,
56:35
SPEAKER_01: you know,
56:37
SPEAKER_01: working it through or thinking so deep about it.
56:41
It's showing us different possibilities of coming together with
56:46
the other,
56:46
SPEAKER_01: whoever the whatever or whoever the other is.
56:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
56:51
so I definitely like the really funny but relatable take that
57:00
women read monster
57:01
SPEAKER_02: romance because they are so disappointed in actual real men.
57:06
SPEAKER_02: And at the same time,
57:09
SPEAKER_02: women joke,
57:10
SPEAKER_02: well,
57:11
SPEAKER_02: reading romance has given me unrealistic expectations,
57:16
SPEAKER_02: but I don't think they are unrealistic.
57:20
SPEAKER_02: I think all of that is possible.
57:25
SPEAKER_02: I don't know what you have to do.
57:30
SPEAKER_01: Read more books.
57:32
Maybe having the wingspan or different body parts might be
57:37
unrealistic in terms of
57:38
SPEAKER_01: the human perspective.
57:41
SPEAKER_01: But when you sit with it, what are the books really about?
57:44
SPEAKER_01: Coming together, being fully seen,
57:48
And being seen in a way and recognized and acknowledged,
57:53
having a sense of belonging.
57:55
SPEAKER_01: I feel like those are all emotions that we want.
58:01
SPEAKER_02: And they are very actually simple and basic.
58:06
And yeah,
58:07
and it's heartbreaking that women,
58:11
people don't allow themselves to want them even.
58:17
SPEAKER_02: Because we settle.
58:18
SPEAKER_02: So often we settle.
58:19
SPEAKER_02: And that's why we think that those are unrealistic expectations.
58:24
SPEAKER_02: A man who listens to you and brings you flowers and orgasms.
58:27
SPEAKER_02: That's not unrealistic.
58:30
SPEAKER_02: You just have to teach him a little.
58:36
SPEAKER_01: There's that.
58:37
SPEAKER_01: There's that little bit of that work.
58:41
SPEAKER_01: Now...
58:42
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
58:42
changing directions a little bit in your writing for this year
58:47
or coming for you,
58:48
what are some of the edges that you're perhaps exploring
58:53
through your writing or
58:55
SPEAKER_01: perhaps what wants to emerge next for you?
59:00
What is sort of your feeling that's coming for you in terms of
59:04
your writing?
59:05
SPEAKER_02: Well, I...
59:08
SPEAKER_02: facing a sort of personal challenge.
59:12
So not in the content of my books,
59:16
although it may come through there as well.
59:19
SPEAKER_02: But I have been struggling with workaholism and just basically
59:27
working myself to the point of burnout and really pushing
59:32
myself to write more and
59:34
more and more so my current challenge which is actually very
59:39
very hard is to write
59:41
SPEAKER_02: from a place of joy and love and not work myself like a horse so yeah
59:51
It is very strongly tied to my creative pursuit and to the way
59:57
I write because I
59:59
have to basically reinvent my process so it doesn't burn me out
1:00:04
and actually allows
1:00:06
SPEAKER_02: me to enjoy myself.
1:00:08
SPEAKER_02: So that's my current challenge.
1:00:10
That's a powerful challenge because it's almost like you have
1:00:17
to drink kind of the
1:00:18
SPEAKER_01: own medicine you have written.
1:00:20
SPEAKER_01: in the stories.
1:00:22
SPEAKER_01: You've written the books, so you've got to live them in a way.
1:00:25
SPEAKER_02: True.
1:00:27
SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting because we're coming from different perspectives.
1:00:30
SPEAKER_01: For me, reading the books have been such a healing of the burnout.
1:00:35
And here you are as a creative navigating that edge of not
1:00:40
continuing to write in
1:00:42
SPEAKER_01: such a way that it's going to burn you out.
1:00:46
Well,
1:00:46
I have this inherent,
1:00:49
very wrong belief that I have to suffer for my art.
1:00:54
SPEAKER_02: And if I don't suffer, it won't be any good.
1:00:58
SPEAKER_02: So that's just the price I have to pay.
1:01:01
SPEAKER_02: So now I'm working on sort of dismantling that and...
1:01:07
SPEAKER_02: learning that writing from a place of joy can be just as powerful,
1:01:13
SPEAKER_02: if not more powerful,
1:01:15
SPEAKER_02: than writing from a place of pain.
1:01:16
SPEAKER_02: So, yeah.
1:01:19
SPEAKER_01: That's really powerful.
1:01:20
SPEAKER_01: And that's work.
1:01:22
SPEAKER_01: That's...
1:01:25
That is definitely a challenge,
1:01:27
a creative challenge,
1:01:28
but I feel it's going to be beyond you.
1:01:31
Beyond you in the sense that you're going to go through it and
1:01:35
what you create from
1:01:36
SPEAKER_01: that joy is going to be healing for other people as well.
1:01:42
SPEAKER_01: I definitely hope so.
1:01:45
I hope that you're guided through joy and just really paying
1:01:52
attention to what you
1:01:52
SPEAKER_01: desire in the moment.
1:01:55
I do think that joy is such a misunderstood,
1:02:00
I would call it almost a deity.
1:02:03
SPEAKER_01: You know, we don't understand joy very well.
1:02:06
SPEAKER_01: Our culture poo-poos it a lot, diminishes a lot, but we really need it.
1:02:13
And one of the things I have noticed just from the global
1:02:18
political perspective is
1:02:20
SPEAKER_01: how much joy is brushed aside as one of the first things to go.
1:02:25
SPEAKER_01: And it's the thing that is actually absolutely needed.
1:02:30
SPEAKER_01: Again,
1:02:30
SPEAKER_01: going back to Venus,
1:02:31
SPEAKER_01: it's related to Venus because joys is what makes us get up,
1:02:36
SPEAKER_01: makes life worth living in many ways,
1:02:39
SPEAKER_01: the joys we have.
1:02:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:02:41
SPEAKER_01: And we need that so much.
1:02:44
SPEAKER_01: So much.
1:02:45
SPEAKER_01: So much to keep us going.
1:02:47
SPEAKER_01: Well,
1:02:48
SPEAKER_01: I do,
1:02:49
SPEAKER_01: before we kind of start wrapping up,
1:02:51
SPEAKER_01: then I have like my little sort of rapid fire five questions.
1:02:55
Is there anything before we move in that direction that you
1:03:00
would like your readers
1:03:03
to know or anything that's top of mind for you that you would
1:03:07
like the listeners to
1:03:08
SPEAKER_01: know?
1:03:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:03:10
about writing romance or anything or anything i don't know i i
1:03:17
think we said so
1:03:18
many interesting and important things today and my mind is sort
1:03:23
of reeling but i
1:03:27
SPEAKER_02: want to thank you now that i have a chance i want to thank you for this
1:03:31
SPEAKER_02: conversation and
1:03:35
SPEAKER_02: And your really,
1:03:37
SPEAKER_02: really unique perspective on romance,
1:03:40
SPEAKER_02: because I think it's so needed right now.
1:03:45
SPEAKER_02: We need to remember that romance isn't just a piece of love,
1:03:50
SPEAKER_02: or it is,
1:03:51
SPEAKER_02: but it is a piece of love with very important healing powers and powers.
1:03:58
SPEAKER_02: teeth and lots of things that we need these days.
1:04:03
SPEAKER_02: And you shine light on that.
1:04:05
SPEAKER_02: So thank you so much for your work and perspective.
1:04:10
SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.
1:04:11
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
1:04:12
And I was going to be facetious and say romance also has very
1:04:16
large wingspans.
1:04:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:04:20
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:04:21
SPEAKER_01: So the first question is related to the name of the podcast.
1:04:26
SPEAKER_01: And I called it Romancing the Threshold.
1:04:30
SPEAKER_01: So when you hear that name, what comes to mind for you?
1:04:35
SPEAKER_01: Romancing the Threshold.
1:04:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:04:39
SPEAKER_02: Oh my God,
1:04:39
SPEAKER_02: the unknown,
1:04:40
the thrill and terror of stepping into a room where I've never
1:04:48
been and finding
1:04:53
something that terrifies me that I don't know and that I
1:04:58
desperately need.
1:04:59
SPEAKER_02: That's how I feel.
1:05:03
SPEAKER_01: I love that part that we desperately need.
1:05:05
SPEAKER_01: That's a part that sometimes we forget about that.
1:05:10
SPEAKER_01: So for you, what's your definition of romance?
1:05:17
SPEAKER_02: My definition of romance.
1:05:19
SPEAKER_02: Oh, my God.
1:05:20
SPEAKER_02: Love conquers all.
1:05:22
SPEAKER_01: It does.
1:05:25
SPEAKER_01: It does.
1:05:25
SPEAKER_01: It is the force.
1:05:28
SPEAKER_01: And in the romance genre, what's your favorite trope?
1:05:33
SPEAKER_01: Opposites attract.
1:05:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:05:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:05:37
SPEAKER_02: I do love that one.
1:05:37
SPEAKER_02: I think that's the one.
1:05:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because it makes for such incredible fun situations.
1:05:44
And also you just always keep wondering how will they end up
1:05:49
together if they are
1:05:50
SPEAKER_02: so,
1:05:51
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:05:52
SPEAKER_02: different in every aspect.
1:05:53
SPEAKER_02: And it always works out because love conquers all.
1:05:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:05:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:06:01
And of all the books you probably read in your life and you
1:06:04
really enjoyed or maybe
1:06:05
SPEAKER_01: you had an issue about it,
1:06:08
SPEAKER_01: is there a book you wish you could rewrite and make it your own?
1:06:12
SPEAKER_01: Add the Leila special sauce.
1:06:17
SPEAKER_01: I don't think so.
1:06:18
SPEAKER_01: No.
1:06:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because I cannot work with something that was already
1:06:29
work for me so hmm no plus if it's been done then it's been
1:06:36
done and yeah just an
1:06:41
offshoot of that one is there any um if you were to do a would
1:06:45
you ever do a
1:06:46
SPEAKER_01: retelling of a story or maybe a myth or a fairy tale
1:06:53
SPEAKER_02: Okay, yeah, I am sort of writing, will be writing this year.
1:06:59
So Follow the Moon will actually be based on a Polish folk tale
1:07:06
about a woman who
1:07:08
SPEAKER_02: followed the moon to the underworld.
1:07:11
SPEAKER_02: So, yeah.
1:07:13
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
1:07:13
SPEAKER_01: That's already on my wish list.
1:07:15
SPEAKER_01: And I love that cover, by the way.
1:07:18
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
1:07:19
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I love that, too.
1:07:21
SPEAKER_02: And it was me in in collaboration with AI.
1:07:26
SPEAKER_01: It's a beautiful cover.
1:07:29
SPEAKER_01: And well, you kind of touched in already already, but.
1:07:34
What's a growing edge for you now,
1:07:36
creatively,
1:07:38
at least,
1:07:38
because you touched on the burnout.
1:07:39
SPEAKER_01: So that's more of your personal life, but also creative.
1:07:45
SPEAKER_01: Is there another growing edge you're kind of working through?
1:07:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, another one would be like stepping blindly into the unknown.
1:07:55
Just like I did with Price for the King and also partly with
1:08:01
Yaga and the Devil.
1:08:03
Because I started writing the first book having no idea how the
1:08:07
trilogy would go or
1:08:09
even if it would be a trilogy because it was supposed to be a
1:08:14
two book series at
1:08:15
SPEAKER_02: first.
1:08:17
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, and
1:08:20
I do my best work when I just take the plunge and go in blind
1:08:26
and just start writing.
1:08:28
SPEAKER_02: But that is so terrifying.
1:08:30
SPEAKER_02: It's just like that,
1:08:31
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
1:08:32
that room when you just have to step over the threshold into
1:08:36
the unknown and trust
1:08:40
SPEAKER_02: that you will be guided.
1:08:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:08:42
SPEAKER_02: So learning to do that is where I'm also challenged.
1:08:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:08:49
SPEAKER_01: Well,
1:08:49
you have proven to yourself you've done it at least twice when
1:08:53
you did the trilogy
1:08:55
SPEAKER_01: and the Prize for the King.
1:08:57
SPEAKER_01: So I would say you're a bungee jumper into the unknown.
1:09:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:09:05
SPEAKER_02: Well, but the fear doesn't lessen even when you've already done it.
1:09:12
SPEAKER_02: So, yeah.
1:09:14
SPEAKER_02: I will try in the end.
1:09:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:09:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:09:18
Well,
1:09:18
as you say that,
1:09:19
I'm thinking,
1:09:19
I too struggle with the fear as well.
1:09:24
SPEAKER_01: And I'm wondering maybe, is the fear a part of the ingredient?
1:09:29
SPEAKER_01: You know, maybe it's, is it needed?
1:09:31
SPEAKER_01: And if it's needed, why is it needed?
1:09:34
SPEAKER_02: Or is it just because it's something we don't know?
1:09:38
SPEAKER_02: The uncertainty is the source of fear.
1:09:42
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, then if you
1:09:46
SPEAKER_02: would it be really as powerful?
1:09:49
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
1:09:50
SPEAKER_02: Maybe conquering that fear is the needed part.
1:09:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:09:54
Because I'm thinking here about the monsters,
1:09:57
you know,
1:09:57
they are dwellers at the threshold.
1:10:00
SPEAKER_01: That's why they're monstrous.
1:10:02
SPEAKER_01: You know, I think a lot about that.
1:10:06
Going through my own,
1:10:07
having to jump into new territories of my life this year as
1:10:10
well.
1:10:12
SPEAKER_01: Well,
1:10:12
SPEAKER_01: Leila,
1:10:13
SPEAKER_01: again,
1:10:14
I have first of all to thank you for writing all those books
1:10:17
because they have been
1:10:18
SPEAKER_01: a great part of my own journey of healing and burnout.
1:10:25
SPEAKER_01: And they have been great fun.
1:10:28
SPEAKER_01: They have made me think.
1:10:30
SPEAKER_01: They have made me feel.
1:10:31
SPEAKER_01: And I really appreciate your work.
1:10:36
SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure...
1:10:38
SPEAKER_01: As you tackle,
1:10:39
SPEAKER_01: as you cross your creative thresholds,
1:10:42
SPEAKER_01: we the readers are going to benefit even more from what you're doing.
1:10:46
SPEAKER_01: And thank you so much for coming to the podcast.
1:10:50
SPEAKER_01: I am pleased and pleased, you know, totally fangirl here of your work.
1:10:57
SPEAKER_01: And who knows, maybe one day you come to America for some signings.
1:11:02
SPEAKER_01: It'll be great.
1:11:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:11:04
SPEAKER_01: I'd love to meet you in real life.
1:11:06
SPEAKER_02: I'll make it to Poland.
1:11:08
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
1:11:09
SPEAKER_02: You absolutely have to.
1:11:10
SPEAKER_02: Poland is a beautiful country.
1:11:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:11:13
SPEAKER_01: I've never been and it would be great.
1:11:15
SPEAKER_01: And it's been a joy.
1:11:17
SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much.
1:11:19
SPEAKER_01: And I hope that your readers enjoy our conversation.
1:11:25
SPEAKER_02: I hope so.
1:11:26
SPEAKER_02: I wasn't filtering myself at all.
1:11:28
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, this is true, Leila.
1:11:31
SPEAKER_02: This is what you get.
1:11:32
SPEAKER_02: This is the best kind.
1:11:34
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
1:11:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:11:35
SPEAKER_02: And thank you so much for helping me just, you know, be real.
1:11:41
SPEAKER_02: And I had a great time with you.
1:11:43
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
1:11:44
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
1:11:48
SPEAKER_01: As I sit with this conversation,
1:11:50
SPEAKER_01: what lingers isn't just the talk about AI or monsters or creativity.
1:11:56
It's the reminder that so much of our becoming happens in the
1:11:59
places no one sees.
1:12:02
SPEAKER_01: In the books we read at midnight,
1:12:04
SPEAKER_01: in the desires we don't yet have language for,
1:12:07
SPEAKER_01: in the moments when a story cracks,
1:12:10
SPEAKER_01: something opened in us and we didn't even know it was sealed shut.
1:12:15
SPEAKER_01: Listening back to my conversation with Leila,
1:12:18
SPEAKER_01: I kept thinking about how many of us are living double lives right now.
1:12:23
The daylight self who handles responsibilities and the after
1:12:27
dark self who slips
1:12:29
SPEAKER_01: into stories that feel like portals.
1:12:33
SPEAKER_01: Stories where women choose their desire,
1:12:35
SPEAKER_01: where the monstrous becomes the mirror,
1:12:38
SPEAKER_01: where joy isn't frivolous,
1:12:40
SPEAKER_01: but a form of intelligence.
1:12:42
Stories that rehearse the very thresholds we are trying to
1:12:46
cross in our very real lives.
1:12:49
And all of this is happening while the world around us feels
1:12:53
increasingly unstable
1:12:55
SPEAKER_01: politically,
1:12:56
SPEAKER_01: technologically,
1:12:57
SPEAKER_01: emotionally.
1:12:59
AI is shifting faster than any of us can track,
1:13:02
and the headlines aren't exactly comforting.
1:13:06
But what Leila and I touched on today is that even in the midst
1:13:10
of all of that,
1:13:12
SPEAKER_01: there are still ways to stay human,
1:13:15
SPEAKER_01: to stay curious,
1:13:16
SPEAKER_01: to stay connected to desire,
1:13:18
SPEAKER_01: to joy,
1:13:19
to the parts of ourselves that refuse to be flattened by fear
1:13:24
or cynicism.
1:13:26
SPEAKER_01: That's the real work of threshold times.
1:13:29
SPEAKER_01: Not pretending the world isn't changing,
1:13:32
SPEAKER_01: but remembering that we are the ones who meet the threshold with courage,
1:13:38
SPEAKER_01: with discernment,
1:13:39
SPEAKER_01: and with the curiosity of lovers.
1:13:43
SPEAKER_01: If this conversation has stirred something in you,
1:13:46
SPEAKER_01: a question,
1:13:47
SPEAKER_01: a memory,
1:13:48
SPEAKER_01: a curiosity,
1:13:50
SPEAKER_01: a discomfort,
1:13:52
SPEAKER_01: I hope you share it with a friend,
1:13:54
SPEAKER_01: with a partner,
1:13:56
with someone who might need a reminder that they are not alone
1:13:59
in navigating the
1:14:00
SPEAKER_01: unknown.
1:14:02
These conversations grow when they are carried hand to hand,
1:14:06
voice to voice.
1:14:08
And if you feel called to spread the word about this episode,
1:14:12
it helps more than you know.
1:14:13
It helps the podcast reach the people who are standing at their
1:14:17
own thresholds,
1:14:18
SPEAKER_01: wondering how to take the next step.
1:14:22
SPEAKER_01: And if you're someone who's been feeling that tug,
1:14:26
that sense that the books that you've been reading are doing
1:14:29
something to you,
1:14:30
SPEAKER_01: That your late night highlights are breadcrumbs.
1:14:34
SPEAKER_01: That your desire is trying to tell you something.
1:14:37
SPEAKER_01: I'm opening a new space this spring called Forbidden Doors.
1:14:41
It's for women who sense that their reading life isn't
1:14:44
escapism,
1:14:45
but rehearsal.
1:14:47
SPEAKER_01: That the tropes they crave,
1:14:49
SPEAKER_01: the scenes they return to,
1:14:51
the monsters they choose are revealing something about their
1:14:56
own becoming.
1:14:57
SPEAKER_01: And in a moment when so many of us are navigating change in the dark,
1:15:02
reading lives have become one of the few places where desire
1:15:06
still has room to
1:15:07
SPEAKER_01: speak.
1:15:08
SPEAKER_01: Forbidden Doors is a space to explore that,
1:15:12
SPEAKER_01: not by analyzing books,
1:15:14
SPEAKER_01: but by learning to read your desire as a compass.
1:15:18
SPEAKER_01: If that speaks to you, you will find more details in the show notes.
1:15:23
So thank you for listening,
1:15:24
for being here,
1:15:26
for stepping to this conversation with us.
1:15:28
SPEAKER_01: And remember,
1:15:29
SPEAKER_01: romancing the threshold is where we meet change,
1:15:33
SPEAKER_01: not by bracing for impact,
1:15:35
SPEAKER_01: but with the curiosity of lovers.
1:15:38
SPEAKER_01: Until next time.