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Tracer Rounds Welcomes Retired CSM Bart Womack · Military Broadcast Radio | MBR Talk

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MBR giving veterans a voice. Find us on the web at MB Radio
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dot US. Hi, welcome to Teresa Rounds.
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I'm Terry, your host, and you're a military broadcast radio where
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we're veterans of voice. And I'm so happy to have in
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studio with me today Bart Womack.
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And he is a retired Sergeant major from the 101st Airborne.
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And he has an interesting story to tell us.
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But first, we want to talk about.
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Well, I wanted to just hit another highlight.
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You are the Sergeant of the Guard of the Tomb of the Unknown
3:02
Soldier too, right? Correct.
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Ask you about that when we get a little further into the
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conversation. But you're also a show host on
3:13
the Veterans Channel, and you're a producer and a show producer
3:19
and a actor and a military technical advisor for movies
3:24
too, right? Yes.
3:27
That is so crazy. I think that is the neatest
3:29
thing ever. I love that you transition your
3:31
military experience into these marketable skill sets to go into
3:36
movies and to go into other venues that you know, it just
3:39
transcends the military experience, but it's still
3:41
inclusive of what you know and, and what you've learned.
3:45
But first, I think we'd like to talk about if you don't mind
3:48
your military service, like when did you join?
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How old were you and did you enlist in first?
3:54
And what was your MOS, things like that, if you could tell us?
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All right, it's about 6 questions.
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I'm going to try to nail them. All here sorry sorry I'm so
4:02
excited to talk to you I just can't stop asking questions I.
4:06
Appreciate being on there, being on the.
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Show so born and raised in Columbus, OH.
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So native Columbus, OH. Buckeye for life.
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That's why I joined the military.
4:15
I kind of stumbled upon the military even though I had an
4:19
older brother that served in the Navy, He's like 19 years older
4:22
than me. So I didn't really at service.
4:24
He was in and out before I knew anything.
4:26
Probably only saw him in U1 time and didn't really know you know
4:30
anything about it. So I had a single parent mother.
4:33
My father passed away when I was 1.
4:36
So I didn't really have that male influence and to know the
4:39
military in that particular way, right.
4:41
And. So come high school, the
4:44
recruiters would frequent. The the hallways of the school
4:47
trying to recruit, they still allowed to in those days, way,
4:50
way back when. So I never spoke with them at
4:55
that time. I'd always worked growing up,
4:58
always had a job, always had my own money to spend.
5:00
So I had to ask for money, and I like money.
5:05
I like being able to make money and I was focusing focused on
5:09
work, so I graduated at 17 years old.
5:13
I told myself that I would go, I would start college, but it was
5:16
going to be a year after graduation.
5:18
I just wasn't mature enough to be honest with you, right?
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So I was working a good job and. My next oldest brother, he had
5:29
wrecked the. Car.
5:30
And that was my transportation back and forth to work, so I had
5:32
to start. So it's like October ish I.
5:36
Believe and you know, it's pretty got pretty cold really
5:38
quick that year and I was in between transferring on the bus
5:42
and walked past the recruiter office and said I'm going to go
5:45
in here and get warm. I know they're going to talk my
5:48
head off about joining the military.
5:49
I'm 17. I can't sign myself so.
5:52
Well, I'll let them talk. I'll have some hot chocolate
5:56
warm. Then I'll come back out and I'll
5:57
catch my bus. So that's exactly what happened,
6:00
that they talked, I got warm, they told me some things about
6:02
the military and some options and all this type of stuff.
6:05
And I said, OK, well I'm 17, my mom has a sign wherever.
6:08
You know, maybe I'll go home and tell her I went home.
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I didn't tell my mother anything.
6:12
My birthday was in December so I finally got around and tell my
6:17
mother that I. Finally, that I went in there
6:19
and they would be calling. I think every time they called
6:22
she went home. But she also knew that when I
6:26
turned 18, I could make that decision myself.
6:29
So I turned. 18 December 17th, that's my birthday.
6:32
I still didn't make a decision. It wasn't until sometime in
6:35
January that they called and I answered and said, OK, let's
6:40
let's take a look at this. What's the next steps?
6:42
And was, you know, the testing and all that type of stuff.
6:44
I did that in February. The job I was working went went
6:48
to work and they were laying off.
6:50
They were laying off in 2 weeks and I called the guy and said
6:53
OK, I'm ready to go and I left in two weeks.
6:57
Yeah, it all happened. You know that that fast.
7:00
So basic training, AIT, all that.
7:04
That's when I signed up for airborne school.
7:05
I knew nothing about airborne school.
7:08
Nothing about air more than jumping out of airplanes.
7:11
I went to the briefing for that and they said that the guys that
7:15
were going to say you got to be crazy.
7:17
I learned that they pay $55 more a month and said I'm in, sign me
7:22
up. For 55 more, would you do the
7:26
same now if they said I'm going to give you 55 more if you
7:29
jumped? Well, yeah, now I would because
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I didn't know, you know, I was, I didn't know anything about the
7:35
military. I didn't.
7:37
The paratroopers was like the the Thing and it's 1970.
7:40
Seven, I kind of skipped over that part, but joined in
7:42
February 1977. And I I didn't because I didn't
7:47
know anything about the military.
7:48
I didn't know that paratroopers were the were the IT had no idea
7:53
and how strapped they were in the jump boots and all that
7:56
stuff that came with it. Definitely do it now we need we
7:59
need be about the $55 It'd be about we had a paratrooper yeah.
8:03
So I. Had my first time in in the 82nd
8:10
and served there for about two years.
8:12
Next time it was Korea and then back to the 82nd.
8:16
Then I re enlisted. And went to Turkey for a year.
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I played a lot of sports in in Turkey.
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I played every sport that we could possibly play because the
8:23
championships for that was held in in Italy.
8:27
That was the the higher level command.
8:31
And I played basketball, I played football, I played, I ran
8:36
track, I played volleyball, I played tennis.
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So I'm. Going to play tennis.
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We were in NA, we're in Naples. No, they were in Naples and I
8:54
left there to go back to the base in Turkey.
8:57
I was there for two days to go right back to Italy again for
9:00
for track. So then I couldn't go.
9:04
For basketball, actually, I couldn't go for football because
9:07
my boss said you spent more time in Italy than you have in
9:10
Turkey, so. I was able to go.
9:13
Later on for for volleyball. But after that, I was influenced
9:17
by one guy and this guy. Was a, was an Army Ranger, you
9:23
know, surgeon Rangers and now he was in this unit and he was also
9:27
also had been a drill Sergeant. So that, that inspired me to do
9:30
both of those things, starting with being a drill Sergeant.
9:33
So I, I signed up for to be a drill Sergeant, left Turkey,
9:36
went straight to drill Sergeant school.
9:38
I mean, I had just turned 23 years old.
9:41
I was starting at 23 now, but you could back in those days.
9:45
So now it's 1982. I'm a drill Sergeant for two
9:48
years. I completed that time and then
9:52
went to Korea and I was assigned to the JSA, which is, which is
9:57
called the Joint Security area where, you know, part of your
10:01
job you're, you're interfacing with the enemy of North Korea,
10:05
the KPA to Korea, they call it Korea's people Army, you know,
10:10
so you're facing with that, with that enemy right there on, on a
10:13
regular basis now, although in the JSA itself, that's why they
10:17
have the peace talks and everything.
10:18
I mean, there's no, there's no fighting going on, but they're
10:23
still the enemy. There could be going on.
10:26
And long and behold on the sign there in July and long and
10:29
behold on November there. We did have a firefight with
10:32
them, someone that came to the JSA on the communist side and
10:37
they were, they were, they had already planned A2 year plan to
10:41
defect from North Korea into South Korea.
10:45
And they ran across the border, the KPA started shooting them,
10:49
and then that started a firefight between US and them.
10:53
Wow. Kind of a, a story that most
10:57
people never even heard of, never even knew that it even
11:00
happened, that there was an actual, you know, firefight for
11:03
about 25 minutes or so between the KPA and the US on the South
11:09
Korean side. Oh, wow.
11:11
Yeah. So left there.
11:13
I went to the old guard just in a regular unit there.
11:17
It's another unit they really didn't know anything about.
11:19
I hadn't been there. A guy that was that was in Korea
11:22
with me had been there and he talked me into going.
11:25
So I went to the old guard. He kind of showed me the ropes
11:28
and everything on how to March like they do, how to March with
11:31
the sword. So now I'm a staff Sergeant and
11:34
he went down to try out for the two men.
11:37
Unknown Soldier and he was. So the two-minute Unknown
11:40
Soldier has has three reliefs now, first, second and third and
11:43
they kind of kind of they go by height.
11:46
The first relief, those guys are like 645 and above.
11:52
Second relief is about 6-1 is to six, three third relief is 510
11:57
and somewhere in between that maybe 5-10 to six footage.
12:01
So based on my height of 5-10, I could only go to one relief.
12:05
So he was there and had the third relief and then he moved
12:08
to second because he was, he was taller.
12:10
So that open spot and 3rd relief.
12:14
And I went to trial for that spot.
12:16
So it was me and another guy and then he quit.
12:18
So that meant that I was probably going to be the guy.
12:21
But they don't. So you still have to do all the
12:23
work, you know, so you're doing all the training.
12:25
What you do outside, you have to know, you know, a mass amount of
12:30
knowledge. So when you take the badge test,
12:32
there's 100 questions on that test.
12:35
You have to get 90% on that test.
12:37
And most people this stuff is. Drilled and grilled.
12:41
Into you so most. People get 100% but you know
12:46
that cemetery in and out like the back of your hand.
12:48
Everyone who is said say like that.
12:52
I would say prominent. People that are buried there,
12:55
you, you know their not only their names, but you know their
12:59
gravesite. If they have some history
13:01
attached to them, you know where their gravesite is.
13:06
I used to call us the the living historians of the of the
13:10
cemetery because it took they the pedestrians would come and
13:17
and visit or to visit. I get such a.
13:18
Column. And you're like, we're the only
13:21
living, moving thing. Right who we are by our.
13:24
Haircuts and all that type of stuff.
13:26
And they just may ask you a question while you're going from
13:28
point A to point B. Not, not when you're on your way
13:30
out to do the ceremonial part and you're in civilian clothes.
13:33
But they can see by the haircut, right?
13:35
Have it all over our jacket and a polo shirt and everything.
13:39
So they know. And they may ask you a question
13:42
about where someone may be buried, you know, But we knew
13:45
whatever it was very there was someone.
13:48
So when the visitors came, we could kind of tell them that so.
13:52
I did that job for. 18 months and then I went to be a tuna
13:56
Sergeant while I was doing that job, I also went to Raider
14:01
school from from there and my job was relief commander.
14:05
So that's the guy Have you ever seen the terminal known soldier
14:07
and seen a guard chains. That's the person who's coming
14:10
out. They they're the ones with the
14:12
the holster and pistol and they're saying, ladies and
14:15
gentlemen, have your attention, please.
14:17
The ceremony about the witnesses, the changing of the
14:19
guard, That's the one doing all the talking and that's the one
14:22
who was inspecting the weapon. The Sentinels is what's called
14:25
the person that's walking back and forth.
14:30
So after 18 months, I went to be a batoon Sergeant and then I
14:32
later. Came back to be the Sergeant of
14:34
guard at the tone on those sorts.
14:35
That's a guy when you turn your television on Memorial Day and
14:38
Veteran's Day that's interfacing with with the president or and
14:42
with the reef. You know, I did that for so two
14:44
of those years when you turn your television on, if you have
14:47
happened to then it was me. Wow, that's awesome.
14:52
I can imagine it's it's pretty to be in that spot.
14:56
You really have to sequester yourself from everything, right?
15:02
I mean, I've, I've read about it and my, my drill Sergeant when I
15:05
went through AIT was a, he worked, he, well, he was at the
15:11
Tomb of the Unknown Soldier before he came to our AIT unit
15:16
in Fort Jackson. But he, from what he, the way he
15:19
talked, he said that you really had to like agree to a lot of
15:24
different things in order to be one of those soldiers that was
15:27
there and, and worked at the tomb.
15:29
Like no alcohol and no cursing and things like that.
15:33
Is that true? What's his name?
15:40
I don't even know that I remember his name now.
15:43
I don't know where that came from.
15:45
First, he was. Really tall.
15:46
Really, really tall. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
15:48
Not true. Yeah.
15:50
I don't know if we could survive without the profanity.
15:54
I mean, I was just not sitting outside, not where you're on the
15:56
mat, not where you're doing your job, But right.
15:58
I mean, yeah, so not true. I'm not sure where that came
16:03
from. Now you, you, you do walk a
16:05
tight line in terms of being the best of the best, in terms of
16:10
discipline, you know, honor, respect, loyalty, all those
16:14
things that the Army does in the 1st place is taking to a level
16:19
there. You really have to walk the walk
16:22
and talk to talk. But it doesn't go, doesn't go
16:25
that. Far.
16:26
Now, if, if you do something that's unbecoming, and probably
16:32
it'll be it, it would get you in trouble anyway in the military.
16:38
But if you do something that's going to get you in any trouble
16:43
period, the only thing that's added on to that Article 15 or
16:49
whatever, whatever it was, they will remove your badge.
16:54
Oh, wow, that's probably the worst that happened.
16:56
That's a lot because you know, you get a lot to get that badge.
16:59
Well, there's several. Like if you were able to go down
17:01
there and you look at the badge board of all the names that are
17:05
on there and they're all going in in badge order number and
17:12
then you see a plate moved, that means that person that did
17:15
something in their. Badge was taken away but wow
17:18
drink unless they got a DUI you know and then do it drinking or
17:23
profanity but. You do have to walk a tight
17:25
line, but. It's not not that.
17:28
Strict. Well, we need to take a quick
17:30
break, but when we come back, we'll kind of wrap up your
17:34
career and then we'll kind of move into the story that you're
17:39
going to tell us and then about your book.
17:41
So we're going to listen to Dustin Gardner, Brother in Arms.
20:36
Welcome back to Tracer Rounds, and I'm your host, Terry.
20:39
And I have with me retired Sergeant Major Bart Womack.
20:42
And we were talking through your career and how you were at the
20:46
Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. And then you can pick up the
20:49
story from there, if you don't mind.
20:50
Yes, it's kind of funny. I'm going to a tune guard
20:53
reunion that they have. I guess they.
20:55
Have it every other year and that's kind of mid November I
20:58
believe. So first thing I'm going to do
20:59
is say what about your drink? I heard you guys can't drink so.
21:06
You can't talk to me like that. Either that's funny.
21:11
So so I I left the left the tune Unknown Soldier I got promoted
21:17
to. I guess I should say when I, I
21:21
started, I was relief command. I was a staff Sergeant and I got
21:23
promoted and I had to leave and that's when I became tune
21:26
Sergeant in one of the companies and then went back down to be a
21:30
Sergeant to guard and then I was promotable again to 1st
21:33
Sergeant. Then I left there to go to
21:34
Hawaii. I spent three years as a first
21:36
Sergeant in Hawaii where we deployed.
21:39
Actually, right off the bat, my first 30 days we deployed to
21:42
Malaysia to train with the, with that Army, something called
21:46
Gagaco, which meant strong in wine and strong in they like and
21:52
like a 30 day training thing. And then deployed going to Haiti
21:58
for Operation for Democracy. Spent three years there.
22:03
Then I left to go to be a Ranger instructor down in the Florida
22:07
phase of Ranger School. So it's kind of unique and funny
22:11
in that, you know, you go through Ranger.
22:13
School, you got that, that other side of being a being a student
22:16
and now your other side. Right, cadre.
22:21
Different, yeah. And you, you control it.
22:24
You know, you control that particular control.
22:27
I was the first song. You control the company, you
22:30
control a lot of a lot of things from that particular side.
22:33
So it's kind of kind of unique and different.
22:36
But I guess my some takeaways I learned was how things were when
22:40
I went through and should you be doing some of those same things,
22:45
or do you keep doing them? Or do you change it because you
22:50
can? Change some things.
22:51
And there's certain controller methods or stuff like that, you
22:54
know, probably little, you know, silly things that maybe I never
22:59
got a lesson out of because the RI decided to do it that way.
23:05
It's something. They just put in there right
23:06
versus? Let's do things that they can
23:09
truly get a lesson out of it versus just.
23:11
You know, playing around. So my point is having the
23:15
ability to to do that. I had been in charge of the
23:19
company and and the patrol when I was out there.
23:23
I left their promotable so I was only there for 10 months.
23:27
I got there in September. I made this song majors list in
23:30
December, then I left in July. So I made this county for a
23:35
year, spent a year a year there and was assigned to her first
23:38
Airborne Division and Secondary 327.
23:42
No slack was the battalion arm major for actually three years.
23:46
I was having so much fun that and the last three years had
23:49
come. Up We deployed at Kosovo.
23:52
During during that time and then I became the first Brigade
23:55
Combat Team commands arm major in about.
24:00
So I was took that job in May and shortly after, you know, 911
24:04
happened and then we were just waiting and buying at the bit,
24:08
if you will to deploy Afghanistan 1st and then you
24:13
know, Iraq they began to emerge. So end up deploying for the
24:18
invasion of. Iraq so, so in all that
24:21
preparation leading up to that and we were always.
24:25
Kind of ready to go. It's like, where is it going to
24:28
be? And, you know, it finally became
24:30
Iraq and. Some.
24:36
Advanced party kind of left in February of that year, so now
24:39
it's 2003. I think I left on the the 3rd or
24:42
4th of March to go over there and also putting our plans
24:47
together, waited for the exact time of when the US forces was
24:53
going to invade Iraq. You know, it's Thursday, I guess
24:58
it's probably March the 20th, March the 20th over there.
25:02
And that's when they had the bomb zone, Baghdad, Baghdad,
25:07
that's what I call it. I think it was officially called
25:10
shop and all. They thought Saddam was in
25:12
certain area and it's kind of, you know, pepper that area with,
25:16
with, with bombs. So two days later we were
25:20
putting final touches on our, on our plan across the border and
25:23
invade our rock. Now it's a Saturday, March 22nd.
25:27
And at that particular time, we were told that we were going to
25:30
do our part of the invasion that that coming Thursday, so about 5
25:34
days from then. And finished up the plans and
25:37
everything. Our ammo just came that that
25:41
day, late in that day, almost almost dusk.
25:45
The brigade commander, total battalion commanders, you can
25:48
issue it whenever you want to. You can put a guard on there.
25:51
You can issue it in the dark with with lights from headlights
25:54
so you can wait to daylight. And issue it in the morning.
25:56
From there, my driver bringing me my ammo.
25:58
So my plan for tonight was I'm going to watch.
26:01
I'm watch golf. It was TV in our in our tent
26:04
where me, the commander and the executive officer slept and had
26:09
watched golf few weeks before. I had watched it the two days
26:14
prior and Tiger Woods was lapping the field playing in
26:17
Arnold Palmer Invitational. Had a different name at that
26:20
time. And it's my night, it's going to
26:23
be filled with watching Tiger play golf, load ammo, had bought
26:27
some snacks, and I was on my computer setting up bill pay.
26:32
Yes, they had that back in 2003, brand new.
26:37
And so that was my plan for the night.
26:39
So it's about, you know, it's after midnight getting closer to
26:43
1:00. The the tent flat would just
26:46
kind of blowing the wind or scraped up against the four.
26:48
You could, you know, hear that with the sand and everything.
26:52
And the first time it hadn't kind of got my attention.
26:55
I realized it was just that. So when it happened again, I
26:59
didn't really look at the flat, but I was sitting at the end of
27:02
a table. The television was about 5 feet,
27:06
maybe 4 1/2 feet to my right. I'm at the end of the table and
27:11
just on the other side of the table would probably have no
27:13
space to sit down. And then there was the tent
27:15
wall. Well, an object that came in.
27:19
I didn't see it come in, but I saw sparks.
27:23
So I knew we were in Atlanta. Not quite right.
27:25
And that was a not quite right grenade.
27:26
The sparking before explodes had never gotten that close to see
27:30
what they actually do. So as soon as that's all the
27:33
sparks had jumped up, ran to the back of their tent to wake up
27:35
the commander who was asleep. He had gone to bed like 2200
27:39
hours the first time he had gone to bed that early.
27:41
Wake him up and say, Hey, is he about to go off up front?
27:44
We got to get out of here, you know, So he, he, he gets up,
27:47
he's kind of on the knees, like get him up.
27:48
He gets, gets his boots on and everything.
27:50
So I'm going to count to 3 and we're going to run down the
27:52
middle of the aisle. So those tents have two, two
27:56
exits, one in the front, one in the back.
27:59
But it's a tempered tent, which has a air conditioner, heating
28:02
unit. And because that's right in the
28:04
the back or whichever side you choose, that exit is all roped
28:10
up and you can't get out. You could, it'd probably take me
28:13
1520 minutes to get through all that stuff to open it up or
28:16
more. So I only exit quickly was out
28:19
the front. So I said I'm going to count the
28:20
three of them going to run. So I was operating under more
28:24
rest of the light and everything was nice and bright and then
28:26
boom, it was pitch dark. And I always say you can put
28:29
your, you can close your eyes, put your hands over that and put
28:33
100 mile an hour tape around that.
28:34
That's how dark it was. I'm.
28:37
Trying to figure out what the middle of the aisle is and just
28:39
say, hey, we're going to run on three 123 go and I'm running
28:43
down the aisle with my hand up as if that's going to protect me
28:46
from a grenade blast. And we just keep running.
28:50
I, I make it out of the tent. He doesn't.
28:54
I'm calling for him and, and and hush tones.
28:57
I I believe that we're under some type of attack.
29:00
I don't know what type. I don't see any attackers and
29:04
he's not out there. Then I hear a gunshot, so I pull
29:08
up my weapon to cock it and it doesn't cock.
29:14
So you know if you load a weapon and you you, you cock it and it
29:18
goes well if you don't have ammo in there, it had a magazine but
29:22
no ammo, then it just goes locks to the rear.
29:25
Remember all my ammo was on the table.
29:27
Now it's guilty that I didn't load the one in my in my holster
29:34
first, so I didn't have any ammo.
29:38
So that gunshot shot the XO when I was coming out of the tent,
29:45
there's a little like a little vestibule area and I could feel
29:49
that he was in that area. He didn't know what I was doing
29:53
or where I was coming from or anything.
29:55
And I could feel that someone was there.
29:58
So when that shot happened, I and I heard her yell, I knew it
30:01
was him. I couldn't do anything without
30:05
ammo. You know, they say don't bring a
30:07
knife to a gunfight. We don't bring a gun dead shoot
30:10
to a gunfight either. So talk is about 25 meters
30:15
behind me, 25 yards behind me. And so I turn around and run to
30:20
the top to get a weapon, get nods and ammunition.
30:25
So I'm running there Holland, for those things.
30:27
You know, those guys got to kind of have a deer in the headlight
30:30
look and I position people at the various interests of the
30:36
talk, finally get the weapon and everything and come back out, go
30:40
to my tent to look for the exo and the commander.
30:42
And I can't find them. And so I go back to the talk and
30:47
summon someone to go in the vicinity of my tent, look for
30:50
them while I look for the enemy. So when I went back out that,
30:53
that, that with, with the knives and everything, I, I didn't see
30:57
anyone. I, I didn't, couldn't find them.
30:59
I didn't see the enemy. I I didn't see any of our
31:02
soldiers. So once I went back in, someone,
31:06
someone to do that, I asked, got on the radio and asked for a
31:10
platoon to come in the vicinity of the talk and just called my
31:12
old unit, the no slack unit and said, Hey, I need a platoon over
31:16
here. And we're sending the talk to
31:18
look for the enemy. And then someone came out on the
31:20
radio and said, do you need Fla? You know, feel that our aimless.
31:23
I said, yes, send that over. I knew one person that had been.
31:26
Shot. So all those things are
31:28
happening. I come back out of the tent,
31:30
then I'm challenged, you know, identify myself and you guys
31:35
said so, Major, what's going on? So I don't know.
31:37
Major Romain has been shot, they said.
31:39
Captain Severt. Has been shot.
31:40
So the time it took me to go in that talk, you know, back and
31:43
forth twice, but Grenade had gone off in the second tent and
31:51
grenade had gone off in the third tent, and someone else has
31:55
been shot who came out of the third tent.
31:57
Now there's something happening with all this adrenaline.
32:00
I can't explain it. I, I didn't hear, no, I hear
32:03
either explosion or that second gunshot.
32:10
The people in the second tent, they had began to get up after
32:13
they heard the the gunshot in the first tent and the grenade
32:18
explodes at a 15° radius. So anything above the 15° or
32:23
above is going to get hit with trap or anything below may have
32:27
a good chance, especially about 10°.
32:31
So a couple guys, a few guys that began to stand up and the
32:36
ones who were already, you know, fully standing up caught a lot
32:40
of shrapnel. Somebody just got into their
32:42
knees. So they got some of them in
32:43
their legs and just various places like 1 was in the in the
32:47
face because he was standing all the way up and he just.
32:50
Flies. He was just flying razor blades.
32:52
Then the third tent, some people started to come out of the tent.
32:57
A grenade rolled in one one guy had was on his way out, realized
33:02
he didn't have his ammo, went back in to get his ammo, then
33:06
started coming out. That's when that grenade
33:07
exploded. He was 17 inches.
33:09
Away from the grenade. Oh wow.
33:12
The the one other person who came out of the tent was shot
33:14
point blank in the back. So now we have this this this
33:20
hunt for in circuits because who else could the the border is 6
33:26
kilometers away. It has to be in circuits that
33:29
guard towers. Our camp is at least 10 football
33:32
field big. It's probably 20 is it was
33:37
humongous. There's 5000 people in this
33:39
camp. It's surrounded by 12 foot burns
33:42
at the top of the berm is is concertina wire.
33:45
So very, very hard to infiltrate the camp without the guards
33:50
seeing you. I mean, you would have you would
33:52
have to somehow scale that that burn that's all sand without
33:56
sinking to get up and over to get into the camp.
34:00
The guards and they were doing all the right things, but I
34:02
figured they had to have fallen asleep for this to happen.
34:07
So I'm kind of furious that that hey, you're falling asleep and
34:10
in surgeon got into our camp. I realize I said that something
34:14
had to have changed because we, if they're in the camp and we
34:16
can't, we don't see them. Like, like there's no sign of
34:20
them. Something's wrong with that.
34:23
So something had to have changed in this camp.
34:26
And then I'm told that interpreters came into the camp
34:28
and said, well, it has to be them.
34:29
Go find them. So they find the interpreters.
34:32
You know, we apprehend them there on the ground, hands
34:35
behind their head in force, pointing at the back of their
34:37
heads. We get them into a room and
34:39
interrogate them just to learn that they have nothing to do
34:41
with it. So now we're back to square one.
34:43
We're trying to figure out who did this.
34:47
And I'm thinking if, if those insurgents can come here and
34:49
commit this attack and then get out without a sign, then our
34:54
Intel is bad. We're going to get annihilated.
34:56
We're going to be in for a serious fight when we finally do
34:59
cross that border and get into Iraq.
35:03
The commander had been. Concussed.
35:05
I guess I should. Tell you at this point the
35:07
reason he didn't make an out of the tent when I did?
35:09
Because the frag grenade came into the tent and when that
35:13
exploded and knocked him back in in to his sleeping area.
35:16
So there were three frag grenades thrown.
35:19
The first grenade that I saw that was sparking was actually
35:22
incendiary grenade that starts fire.
35:24
So that's why I was doing that sparking before, admitted the
35:27
flame, like, you know, I wasn't waiting around.
35:29
So sparks all got out. So he's escorted into the talk
35:35
and he says we need to get a counter building.
35:40
So that call goes out of the radio.
35:42
We learned that one person saw in Akbar's missing saw grenades
35:45
in ammunition. So as I mentioned that the ammo
35:48
just came that night and Akbar was on guard.
35:52
So he just opened up the crates and everything, took out
35:54
ammunition, took out grenades and, and where he was guarding
35:59
the ammo that's aborting the unit.
36:01
He came 300 meters across the desert floor to the headquarters
36:05
area of where we were to, to commit this attack.
36:12
We found him. Once we learned that it was him,
36:15
our intelligence officer came out of the tent.
36:18
We came out together. He went to the right.
36:21
He realized it was a bunker that he hadn't gone to all night just
36:24
to check, check on people, see how they're doing, give him some
36:26
direction, etcetera, and his approach all night, he'd walk up
36:30
to the bunkers. He was getting there saying who
36:31
we have here. Of course they would answer.
36:33
In this case, he went and said who we have here and the person
36:36
says I'm not Sergeant Akbar. Akbar didn't know we were
36:39
looking for him and he maneuvered his way behind him
36:42
and took him down. That's how he's apprehended.
36:45
Oh wow. So and and we asked him why he
36:53
did this. He said to keep y'all from
36:54
killing our women and raping our children.
37:00
At the time it didn't register. What?
37:02
Oh, you are, what's our like? You're an American.
37:06
You are serving in the United States Army.
37:10
You're not from here. Who the heck is our?
37:15
They didn't register. They didn't put two and two
37:17
together that, you know, he was talking about his faith, his
37:20
Islamic faith and everything. And that's what he meant by our
37:24
women and our children. Yeah.
37:30
He's apprehended. I take his weapon and smell it
37:33
and see if he'd been recently fired.
37:36
At some point I had gone back to my tent to get my gear because I
37:39
didn't have anything all night. Finally got ammo grab magazines
37:43
that weren't loaded. They put them on a weapon and
37:46
and then my other holsters, I mean my other ammo carriers.
37:50
And. But when I went over there, I
37:52
realized that there was the brass that was expended from
37:56
where the executive officer had been shot was on the ground.
38:00
So when I smelt that weapon, I could tell I'd been recently
38:03
fired. I put it on safe.
38:05
I did not clear it, which we know is always the, you know,
38:07
standard procedure to clear a weapon when that round that was
38:12
in the chamber and the and the rounds that were in the magazine
38:16
untouched. Because if that piece of brass
38:19
that was on the ground matched all the rounds that was in that
38:23
weapon, they have numbers on them just like your audience is
38:27
seeing on your screen when they see the back of that bullet,
38:31
those numbers they're caught are doted.
38:33
So if they all match, if we were to turn all those around, we
38:36
don't know if they're all the same and have the same numbers
38:38
on your screen, but if they came from the same lot, then they
38:42
would match. So I think that one on the
38:44
ground, that's the ones that are in this weapon, not only the
38:48
because the smell alone, we saying that the smell like we've
38:50
been fired, but those numbers matching, it's a totally
38:54
different story. So I took a weapon to the to the
38:57
brass, laid it down, put a guard on it.
39:00
Tell them not that you don't get relieved until I relieve you.
39:04
CID finally came. They they took Akbar.
39:08
They began their investigation and everything.
39:10
We tried to check on some of our wounded.
39:12
The next morning they went to local cash and we learned that
39:17
one person had died. The one that was shot point
39:20
blank in the back. Captain C had died.
39:22
Yeah, while while we were still looking for the attacker, in
39:28
this case the insurgents, everyone the injury were taken
39:35
to the aid station. Medevac helicopter came in, they
39:38
were loaded into the helicopter. I think the first four
39:41
helicopter took off and it had like a one minute ish flight to
39:47
the closest cast is about 500 meters away.
39:49
Inmate took. One minute to get there.
39:53
That one took off. The second one landed.
39:55
They got those loaded as that one you got ready to take off or
39:58
while it was being loaded, the huge fireball was in the sky,
40:02
just a huge explosion. So we're thinking that part of
40:06
this attack, it's coordinated coming from the air in the
40:08
ground, that that was a Scud. We later found out that that was
40:12
a British fighter jet returning from a mission, a British
40:15
Tornado fighter jet, and it was shot down by one of our Patriot
40:21
missiles. Oh no.
40:23
These explosions going on the ground, gunshots, even though
40:26
the pictured battery wasn't on our camp, it was on another
40:29
camp. It was still, you know, one of
40:31
the 101st airborne invention assets.
40:33
And they're monitoring the radar.
40:35
So they hear all these things going on on the ground and here
40:37
comes this fast moving object across the radar.
40:40
They just figure it's part of the attack in a SCUD and it
40:43
shooted down. Oh.
40:45
No. So he calls all this, all this.
40:49
Yeah. Yeah.
40:51
Obviously it killed the two person crew, you know, So my, my
40:55
takeaways from that is that one, we don't go home with people at
40:59
night, so they don't know what they're planning.
41:02
You know, trust for me just went out of the window from the very
41:05
beginning. Of course, it took the same oath
41:08
to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and
41:10
domestic, just like I did. And now he's literally shooting
41:13
us in the back. In the end 2 are dead.
41:17
One of the people in the second tent.
41:18
Like I said, once you stand up you get more of the grenade
41:21
blast. He had 83 grenades trapping the
41:23
holes in his body. Oh my goodness.
41:26
So he died of wounds 2 days later.
41:29
The the the best thing that happened for us was we left the
41:34
camp two days later. So this this ended up being
41:38
early early Sunday morning. Monday morning we had a memorial
41:41
service for for Captain Seaford. Tuesday morning 08 we LD to
41:46
cross the border into Iraq. Best thing ever happened to us
41:50
when CID was doing the investigation, they had us
41:54
cleaned out all the tents and, and a lot of our soldiers were,
41:57
were there along those tents and this kind of sitting on this
42:00
wall and, and look on their faces, Terry, I saw these are
42:05
people in this unit at this time cannot fight a war.
42:10
They, they are not ready. And I understood that people
42:15
needed to grieve, But I said, everybody, get up, get out of
42:18
here. I don't care where you go.
42:19
It's a big camp. Get get out of here.
42:21
I don't want to see you go someplace.
42:23
Get out of here. Like I didn't want to see that
42:26
anymore. And more importantly, I didn't
42:27
want the division commander to show up and see that because you
42:30
might make the decision, OK, what everyone else can go into
42:33
Iraq and fight this war, but not this unit.
42:36
And it wouldn't be right because we weren't ready as a, as a, as
42:39
an organization at that particular time.
42:42
And rightfully so. I, I, I get it.
42:45
But I just made that decision to get out of here.
42:47
You know, I don't want to see this.
42:49
Go fix yourself. Go don't do the grieving thing.
42:52
And then then you come back. And, and that's why the best
42:56
thing happened to us was that we LD two days later, because now
43:00
we could put this thing in the rear view mirror.
43:03
But more importantly, you know, now we know who the enemy is,
43:06
everything you have enemy, which makes it a hell of a lot easier
43:10
than thinking it's going to be, you know, coming from your back.
43:15
Right. I agree.
43:17
Wow. Well, we need to take a quick
43:18
break and then when we come back, we'll talk about the book
43:21
that comes out of from this story.
43:23
So we're going to listen to Mr. Red, White and Blue by Copy
43:26
Anderson. Welcome back to Tracer Rounds
47:01
and I am your host, Terry and you are on MBR where we're
47:04
giving both men's a voice and it's to Jared, Sergeant Major
47:09
Bart Womack and we were talking about his tour and and the
47:15
happening that his unit went through and from that event with
47:21
the insider threat, you came up with a book called Embedded
47:25
enemy and I it's on your background.
47:27
I don't you can't really see it here either.
47:29
I can't get it to be in the focus, but I've been reading it.
47:31
I didn't get through it yet, but it's a really good read.
47:34
And I mean, it's, it's a very poignant story and it's not one
47:38
that you want to have happen, but you relay the information
47:41
really well to kind of really put you into the moment to see
47:44
what was happening on the ground and kind of, you know, walk us
47:48
through the scenario and what was going on that day and the
47:50
mindset of the people that are involved.
47:52
So we really appreciate that first hand account.
47:55
So tell us a little bit more about that and about what you're
47:57
doing next. Yeah, I I'm very miss if I
48:01
didn't, didn't tell you the effect of that last song there,
48:04
Mr. Red, White and Blue. You talked about the part where
48:08
you you left your, your newborn with your wife and and Captain
48:12
Seeper, who was, was killed. His son was only four months
48:17
old. So I I hit me when I saw that.
48:19
Yeah, Yeah, sure. So this this story, you know, as
48:25
I, as I told you. No unprecedented, unprecedented
48:31
deadly attack that can happen in that manner.
48:36
It was gobbled up by the war as well as should be in terms from
48:41
a, from a, a new standpoint. And you know, the investigation
48:46
still needed to happen. Of course they put out that the
48:49
attack happened and someone was in custody, but they didn't know
48:53
any details, so it got got swallowed up.
48:56
That same day was when the Jessica Lynch convoy got
48:59
commandeered. So now we got prisoners of war.
49:02
Yeah, the ground. Troops.
49:04
On the ground you got contact, all sorts of things, so all
49:06
those things took over the news, and rightfully so.
49:10
But I realized that. No one knew about the story and
49:13
I wanted to know about the story.
49:15
I want them to know about the sacrifices and, more important,
49:17
I want them to know that someone from the inside committed this
49:21
attack. Someone leveraged the military.
49:24
To commit an attack against the military.
49:28
And, and that's why I named the book Embedded in the Insider
49:31
Threat. And as you can see, right after
49:33
that it says we have met the enemy and it is US like one of
49:36
us has done this. Yeah, when I was writing.
49:38
A book I began to look at. All all attacks and then if the
49:44
attack aligned. With an insider threat like a
49:48
school shooting and it was a student or a a shooting in the
49:52
workplace and it was an employee, there was another,
49:56
there was another military person who committed an attack
49:59
that there was a. Colonel in charge.
50:01
He was the in a Royal Air Force, Canadian Air Force, and he had
50:06
killed two of his own soldiers and you know, he's breaking into
50:11
women's houses and still under, under clothes and all kinds of
50:14
stuff. And he was regarded obviously
50:15
not as only the commander, but he had been a guard for, for the
50:19
Queen, you know, so it. Fit the profile of an insider
50:23
threat. And we had met the enemy and it
50:25
was us. You know, I learned later, two
50:29
years after the trial, because you think, OK, what's the sign?
50:32
Like, what was there? Why do you guys know?
50:35
And now it's stuck with me. Like what did that lower level
50:37
of leadership in our subordinate unit?
50:39
Not see something? Yeah, not have been as soon as
50:43
the animal. Comes I'm going to commit this
50:44
attack, but what was there? So that always kind of stuck
50:47
with me, even though in this particular case, unless he came
50:51
out and said it, social media wasn't like it was now, unless
50:55
he came out and said it, there wasn't a sign.
50:59
So in 1993 he wrote I do not like the military, that they
51:03
have too much control over people's lives.
51:05
I suppose I'm just anti government.
51:07
A Muslim should see himself as a Muslim only.
51:10
His loyalty should be only to Islam. 1996 Anyone who stands in
51:15
front of me shall be considered the enemy and dealt with a
51:18
coralie. 1996 Destroying America was my plan as a child, as a
51:23
juvenile and while in college. My life will not be complete
51:26
unless America is destroyed. Destroying America is my.
51:28
Greatest goal? Excuse me?
51:31
1998, he joined the Army. So all of this is already in
51:37
place before it comes in after always saying I'm anti
51:40
government, I don't like the military to have too much
51:43
control. However, now that I have this
51:46
ideology about America as a whole, let me join the military.
51:54
And he's he's extremely patient. Yeah, this happened in 1998.
52:00
Yeah. So five years.
52:02
That's right. So February 2003, he writes, I'm
52:06
not going to do anything as long as I stay here at Fort Campbell.
52:09
But as soon as I am in Iraq, I'm going to try to kill as many of
52:12
them as possible. I remember we, we deployed there
52:17
in March. So that was we were never going
52:20
to, we were never going to know that.
52:24
So that's why I said earlier we don't go home with.
52:25
People at night. And it led me to this quote that
52:28
no profession, level of education, ideology or religion
52:32
is above reproach. There is no profile.
52:35
The insider threat is closer than you think.
52:38
So we don't even look at another country over here just because
52:41
they look like, or they're from the same country or the people
52:44
who flew the planes into the into the towers.
52:47
You know, we don't even look that far that they are right
52:50
here up under our nose. And that's why I'm to align them
52:54
with this attack and these titles with school shootings and
53:00
workplace shootings, because it's the employee who's doing
53:02
it. It's the student who's doing it.
53:04
Yeah. It's closer than you think, but
53:07
we So don't get fixated that it's someone else.
53:10
No one's walking down the street of the of the campus in your
53:13
town and commanding this attack. It's the student who already
53:16
goes there. They already have a relationship
53:18
inside of there. Yeah.
53:20
They know where the students are.
53:21
They know where the classrooms are.
53:22
They know where the doors are locked, which ones aren't in the
53:25
high school where the resource officer is.
53:26
Resource officer is not stopping in these attacks.
53:29
Yeah, I'm getting a little far down the road, but but but if it
53:33
aligned and all these things start popping up as I was
53:37
writing the book. So not only do I tell the story
53:40
in the book, I also have these these strategies, these
53:45
proactive situation awareness strategies to mitigate an
53:49
attack. You know, I was always on this
53:51
thing and still to this day, it's like, OK, I I know he had
53:55
that in his diary and we didn't see his diary, but what was
53:58
there? Like what did he present that
53:59
just was missed? I think they all present
54:02
something. But if we aren't situation
54:04
aware, then we don't pick up on, you know, so I wasn't down there
54:07
at his level, but his Sergeant. What, what did he present to his
54:12
Sergeant? They all said I'm going to do
54:15
this thing, but what are they putting out that we are not
54:18
paying attention to? And that's what drove these
54:22
proactive situational awareness strategies.
54:26
Yeah. I mean, you have to to look at
54:28
everything in context and really delve into how why somebody's
54:33
acting the way they are. Or if something seems really
54:36
off, I mean, you need to start looking into that and figuring
54:39
it out and figuring out why, Because if you don't, you know,
54:43
you could end up in another situation like what you
54:45
experienced. And I think the first thing, the
54:49
first thing I put in there, because that's the first thing
54:50
that happened to me is trust, because you're supposed to
54:53
trust, you know, our, our, our, our comrade to protect us and to
54:59
have our right and have our left and have our back and not shoot
55:01
us in the back like he did, you know.
55:03
So when you guys start thinking about trust, and I'll tell you
55:06
this in, in the story itself, the trust went out of the window
55:10
like immediately, like this attack happens at 01 in the
55:13
morning. Whatever you go through that
55:15
day, that night, I have a platoon of my own soldiers
55:19
guarding us in this perimeter. There's 5000 people in the camp.
55:24
So that perimeter around the headquarters, guess what they're
55:27
facing now? Their weapons are facing out,
55:31
pointing at who bomb soldiers. Yeah, wow.
55:36
Like someone almost got me, but I ain't giving no one else a
55:39
chance to get me. You know one thing I left out
55:42
and telling the story was that when I went back to my tent to
55:44
get my gear I I noticed that the the grenade that did explode
55:48
blew up right where I slept. So had I not been watching Tiger
55:51
Woods play golf, then I wouldn't be talking.
55:53
To you right now. Yeah, that's.
55:55
Oh man. So the trust went out of the
56:01
window. I came that close.
56:04
I came. I came that close to.
56:06
Good thing I like golf. They won't try to like Tiger
56:09
Woods playing golf, right? Otherwise, I've been asleep.
56:13
Yeah, so trust. So when I'm speaking to
56:17
audiences, I tell them, I tell them these strategies, but trust
56:21
no one. Now they're going to think we've
56:22
probably got to trust somebody and say, well, maybe you do, but
56:24
how do you do it? I say trust no one because I
56:26
know it's going to make them think that they have to.
56:30
But the the the message is how do you do it?
56:32
Because some people say, well, I trust people until they give me
56:34
a reason not to. And I think wrong.
56:37
Listen, we need to change that one right away.
56:39
But they have to say this. It's it's they have to do it.
56:42
It's not me. I don't want them to truly think
56:44
about how they trust 'cause I trust it.
56:45
I trusted based on the uniform. I trusted based on the oath.
56:48
I trusted based on those things. And that almost got me killed.
56:52
Right. So think about how you trust the
56:56
next one is an observed listening report.
57:00
And each one of these I have a story about.
57:01
We're not too much time we'll have to get into.
57:03
We have about 4 minutes, yeah. Yeah, I'll go through the
57:05
strategies, but when I'm speaking, I have stories related
57:08
to them that anyone can can relate to that you know, any
57:13
age, for the most part, you know, any of age person can
57:17
exercise these things. Next one is know your neighbors.
57:19
So not just the person who lives next door to you, but know your
57:22
fellow student, know your person that you work with.
57:24
The more you know them, the more they're going to tell you.
57:26
The people will tell you anything.
57:27
They'll tell you what's happening at home.
57:29
They'll tell you what they're going to do to the person who
57:31
cut them off coming to work. I got their number, I got the
57:33
license plate. I know where they live.
57:35
I'm going to, you know, but they will tell you those things if
57:38
you take the time to get to know them.
57:42
Listen, don't just hear. A lot of times you hear things.
57:45
I'm not sure if you married or people close to you, whatever.
57:47
So take the example of telling someone in your house to take
57:50
out the trash and they didn't do it when you told them to do it,
57:52
but you know they heard you and you said I know you hear me, but
57:56
they're not listening. So they didn't move.
57:58
So you say it again until they're finally listening and
58:00
then they do it. That's not the story that's
58:02
associated with it, but you understand what I mean.
58:05
The difference between listening and not just hearing, it's just
58:09
gut check. Like our gut is our strongest
58:11
thing. And we hear after these attacks
58:13
at a school or whatever where someone says, well, I always
58:16
thought that that there's something about their personal
58:19
that's their gut telling them. Yeah, their intuition.
58:24
Maybe something they heard. But more importantly, if they
58:26
always thought, OK, your gut told you something based on
58:29
something, but then what'd you do about it?
58:31
You didn't do anything about it. You didn't report what your gut
58:36
was telling. But now it's, it's the, it's the
58:39
day and age where we have to start, you know, reporting some
58:42
of those things you got to tell somebody about what your gut's
58:44
telling you. Because if you go to a place
58:46
with it and you say, my guts tell me, blah, blah, blah.
58:48
And if you talk to them long enough, they may be able to
58:51
translate not only what your guts telling you, but to come up
58:54
with some signs and some clues or whatever.
58:56
When the, if this is happening, then that could be dips instead
59:00
of the end that the people did say.
59:01
My gut said, well, you didn't do anything about it so you don't
59:06
care. What your gut said.
59:07
But we hear it every single time, right?
59:09
Those are the strategies. Trust no one.
59:13
Observe this report. Know your neighbor.
59:16
Listen, don't just hear and then gotcha.
59:19
And so you're going to do a movie about the book, too?
59:24
Yeah, so I, I wrote the screenplay, I think 2018, I did
59:29
some updates and everything in 2020.
59:32
So now I'm just trying to I'm trying to align with with film
59:34
makers, representation, indoor champions to to get the movie.
59:44
Very cool. Well, is there anything else you
59:46
want to say before we close because we've got about a minute
59:48
left, but I, I really appreciate you coming on, but I want to
59:51
give you an opportunity to just wrap up whatever you want to
59:53
say. Yeah, I appreciate you having
59:55
it. I mean, go buy the book.
59:57
It's not just to go buy something.
1:00:00
It's to learn about the store, learn that this bedded enemy
1:00:07
exists and. Is not going away.
1:00:10
These attacks are still happening and we hope that they
1:00:13
don't happen in the military anymore.
1:00:15
But because Akbar did this over 22 years ago, they have been
1:00:20
others that come behind and do the same thing.
1:00:22
We're a copycat world. What people say they do.
1:00:25
He did it, pulled it off, didn't get away with it, but he
1:00:28
executed what he had planned to do and others behind him have
1:00:31
done the same thing. They don't have time to tell you
1:00:34
about, but it's real and exists. Then, more importantly, those
1:00:40
strategies are in there to mitigate attacks of where you
1:00:44
work, where you live, and where your students or your children
1:00:48
go to school. Well, thank you so much for
1:00:50
coming on tonight. I really appreciate the
1:00:52
conversation. It's really nice to talk to you
1:00:54
and to kind of hear your story and, and hear your history of
1:00:57
service basically too, because you have quite a quite a history
1:01:01
in the military and the Army. And I really want to thank you
1:01:04
for all you do for veterans and for what you do for the society
1:01:08
as a whole, kind of preparing them and getting them ready to
1:01:12
watch out for, you know, some unknowns and something that can
1:01:16
potentially happen if you're not paying attention.
1:01:20
Thank you very much for having us, been a blast.
1:01:22
Thank you. This is Teresa Round signing
1:01:24
off. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you
1:01:28
for tuning in to Military Broadcast Radio.
1:01:32
As we wrap up today's show, we want to remind you that the
1:01:36
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