Latest / Parent's Talk with Francine Juhlin / Episode 11: Parents Are Ditching Flashcards for This Method

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Episode 11: Parents Are Ditching Flashcards for This Method · Parent's Talk with Francine Juhlin

0:00
Speaker 1: What if I told you that playing the guitar can
0:05
Speaker 1: help a child learn to read faster than a stack
0:09
Speaker 1: of flashcards? I'm here today with Joe Six Strings Licari
0:16
Speaker 1: and he is going to tell us what this is
0:21
Speaker 1: all about. Joe, why don't you tell everybody about you
0:26
Speaker 1: and Playing the guitar could help them read better.
0:32
Speaker 2: Well, hi, Francine. It's a pleasure to be here today.
0:37
Speaker 2: You know, this is, it's interesting. My background is, you know,
0:41
Speaker 2: technically my career was not in music or in writing.
0:47
Speaker 2: I was in, you know, product management and I worked
0:50
Speaker 2: for a number of technology companies. But a few years ago,
0:53
Speaker 2: I retired and I And I kind of turned back
0:56
Speaker 2: to my roots. I was looking for purpose in life
0:58
Speaker 2: and looking to do something different, a way to give back.
1:02
Speaker 2: And I've always been a musician at heart. I played
1:05
Speaker 2: a lot of musical instruments when I was younger and
1:08
Speaker 2: I continued to play throughout the years, but really just
1:10
Speaker 2: as a hobby on the side. And I always loved writing.
1:13
Speaker 2: And I think when I got to that retirement point,
1:16
Speaker 2: I said to myself, you know, I need to, I
1:18
Speaker 2: felt like I needed to give some oxygen to this,
1:20
Speaker 2: these other parts of my life. And so, Today, I'm
1:25
Speaker 2: a musical instructor at Guitar Center a few days a week.
1:28
Speaker 2: I teach guitar and piano. And I've been writing children's books.
1:33
Speaker 2: And so I'm really having a great time. And on
1:36
Speaker 2: top of that, or related to that, I've been going
1:38
Speaker 2: into schools and other venues and reading to the kids
1:44
Speaker 2: and reading to children anywhere from pre-K all the way
1:48
Speaker 2: up to third and fourth grade. My books, we'll talk
1:51
Speaker 2: about that, but my books focus on some learning issues,
1:57
Speaker 2: learning topics around grammar, around vocabulary, and some really difficult
2:04
Speaker 2: things sometimes for children to pick up, especially children who
2:07
Speaker 2: are learning English as a second language. So my books
2:10
Speaker 2: help bring that out. And I used to do the
2:15
Speaker 2: school visits really just traditionally with my books, and I'd
2:19
Speaker 2: read the books, and I'd give out worksheets for the
2:22
Speaker 2: kids to work on. And that was great. And then
2:27
Speaker 2: at the end of last year, I started to introduce
2:29
Speaker 2: my guitar because I said, look, I can sing songs
2:33
Speaker 2: with the kids about some of the topics that are
2:35
Speaker 2: in the books to help reinforce the learnings. And then
2:40
Speaker 2: I started researching it and started to learn why that works.
2:44
Speaker 2: And so that's a long answer to your short question.
2:47
Speaker 2: But all of that background, I feel, has provided me
2:50
Speaker 2: with a sort of this unique opportunity to help educate
2:59
Speaker 2: children and to help spread the word that music and reading,
3:04
Speaker 2: music and literacy are really two sides of the same coin.
3:09
Speaker 1: That is so interesting. Well, first, let's talk about Mia's Mouses.
3:16
Speaker 1: That's your book series. And Mia's Marvelous Farm Adventures. And
3:24
Speaker 1: I want to know how you incorporated that music into
3:29
Speaker 1: your author's visits, because I know a lot of authors
3:32
Speaker 1: do these author's visits and are looking for new and
3:36
Speaker 1: unique ways to connect with the kids.
3:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, that's good. So my first book was
3:44
Speaker 2: called Mia's Mouses. And Francine, I've had several people come
3:48
Speaker 2: up to me at book fairs and in other places,
3:53
Speaker 2: and they say, look, you really, did you do the
3:56
Speaker 2: editing in the book? You know, it shouldn't be mouses,
3:59
Speaker 2: it should be mice. And I kind of look at
4:01
Speaker 2: them funny and say, well, you know, read the subtitle.
4:05
Speaker 2: Mia and her mouse friends learn about plural nouns. So
4:10
Speaker 2: this book introduces children to some really wonderful characters. I
4:16
Speaker 2: created three mice, Squeaky, who likes to Sneeze and Tease, Speedy,
4:23
Speaker 2: who's the fastest mouse of all, and Squeaky, I'm sorry,
4:27
Speaker 2: and Nibbles, who likes to eat berries and cheese. So
4:30
Speaker 2: three mice. And Mia makes friends with them. And these mice,
4:33
Speaker 2: they're great friends and they play and they have a
4:36
Speaker 2: great time together. But she continues to call them mouses.
4:39
Speaker 2: And she begins to learn that, wait a minute, it
4:41
Speaker 2: should be mice. And so within the book, she ends
4:45
Speaker 2: up going and talking to her parents. She talks to
4:48
Speaker 2: her teacher. And she learns all about plural nouns, especially
4:53
Speaker 2: the irregular plural nouns, which are challenging for children. And
4:57
Speaker 2: as she learns those things, she comes back to her kids,
5:01
Speaker 2: to her kids, to her mice friends at the end
5:04
Speaker 2: of the story, and she shares everything she learned with them.
5:08
Speaker 2: And kids love that story because they really relate to
5:11
Speaker 2: the characters and they relate to the idea that it's
5:15
Speaker 2: okay to make a mistake. like saying mouses instead of mice.
5:21
Speaker 2: And they can learn from that. So this was the
5:24
Speaker 2: first book, and it's really a wonderful learning adventure for children.
5:29
Speaker 2: Usually this type of topic is part of the second grade,
5:35
Speaker 2: first grade, second grade curriculum. The second book is Mia's
5:40
Speaker 2: Marvelous Farm Adventure. And this I published last year. This
5:44
Speaker 2: was a follow-up to Mia's Mouses. And This is interesting
5:51
Speaker 2: because Mia and her sister actually go with the mice
5:54
Speaker 2: to a farm. Now, I'm sure a lot of farmers
5:57
Speaker 2: would not like you to bring in mice, but this
6:00
Speaker 2: is a fictional story. So they go to the farm
6:04
Speaker 2: and there's a small orchard in the farm and they
6:09
Speaker 2: decide to go pick some pears. But what's interesting is
6:13
Speaker 2: that Mia picks the pears, squeaky on her head, picks
6:18
Speaker 2: the pears, but the pears come down in pairs. So
6:23
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, she starts learning about words that
6:26
Speaker 2: sound the same, but mean different things.
6:29
Speaker 1: Oh, wow, how cool.
6:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, so when their baskets were full of the pears,
6:35
Speaker 2: they returned to their house. Each mouse ate eight pears.
6:38
Speaker 2: That's a lot for a mouse. Then Mia scratched her head.
6:41
Speaker 2: She was somewhat confused about the words two and two,
6:44
Speaker 2: and even two which were used. Now, isn't that funny?
6:48
Speaker 2: These words sound identical, but they mean different things. How
6:51
Speaker 2: completely nonsensical. And so she begins to learn about homophones.
6:57
Speaker 2: And there's some back matter in the book that lists
7:00
Speaker 2: a number of homophones and homonyms in the back of
7:04
Speaker 2: the book as well. So again, another fun story. The
7:08
Speaker 2: youngest kids I find, pre-K level, even kindergarten, they may
7:13
Speaker 2: not be up to homophones yet. They usually aren't. That's
7:16
Speaker 2: something that's later in second grade and sometimes even into
7:19
Speaker 2: third grade. But the younger kids just love the story
7:23
Speaker 2: and the characters and they love the rhyming. And that's
7:29
Speaker 2: really what clued me into the link to music is
7:32
Speaker 2: the rhythm and rhyme. And, you know, have you ever
7:36
Speaker 2: noticed that, you know, you read a book, maybe like
7:39
Speaker 2: my books, but gosh, there are so many great rhyming
7:43
Speaker 2: books that have, been some of them out for decades
7:46
Speaker 2: and decades and you read the book once and the
7:49
Speaker 2: kids love it and then they say again and again
7:51
Speaker 2: they want it again and it's the it's the rhyming
7:54
Speaker 2: that continues to attract the child the rhyme is like
7:58
Speaker 2: song and children begin to anticipate all of the next
8:03
Speaker 2: words that are coming in the rhyme in my books
8:06
Speaker 2: if you know there are lots of places where we
8:08
Speaker 2: come up with the word mice in the first book
8:11
Speaker 2: i'll give you an example um She said that each
8:17
Speaker 2: one of them was a mouse quite precise, but together
8:19
Speaker 2: they weren't mouses. Instead, they were mice. And you just
8:25
Speaker 2: did what the children do in the classes and the
8:30
Speaker 2: programs that I run. I hesitate to say mice, and
8:33
Speaker 2: the kids all shout out mice. And that happens about
8:37
Speaker 2: six or seven times in the book. And that got
8:40
Speaker 2: me thinking, Francine, that it's the rhyming that actually can
8:44
Speaker 2: help help teach the principle of these things. They can
8:49
Speaker 2: hear the word coming, and then they learn the correct
8:52
Speaker 2: use of it. And song is very much like that,
8:56
Speaker 2: especially rhyming song. You hear the rhythm, you hear the beat,
9:00
Speaker 2: and you can start to anticipate what the next word is.
9:04
Speaker 1: Like the ABC song. I mean, that is just so
9:07
Speaker 1: basic that everybody knows it.
9:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, and even as adults, sometimes somebody says, you know,
9:14
Speaker 2: out of the blue, What's the letter that comes before R?
9:17
Speaker 2: And even adults will sit there and go, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H.
9:21
Speaker 2: They'll sing the song. I know medical students who made
9:27
Speaker 2: up songs because the breadth of material that they have
9:32
Speaker 2: to learn in a relatively short period of time is amazing.
9:37
Speaker 2: And they would make up songs in order to be
9:39
Speaker 2: able to learn and remember some of these very difficult
9:46
Speaker 2: words and phrases. So it really works. And I did
9:50
Speaker 2: a little bit of research and I won't get into
9:53
Speaker 2: all the details on it, but it's really astonishing that
9:57
Speaker 2: there are studies that have proven that when you introduce
10:01
Speaker 2: music to children at a young age, not only do
10:05
Speaker 2: they learn the music, but their grades in general improve
10:13
Speaker 2: over those that don't have the music background.
10:17
Speaker 1: I think discipline of learning music has something to do
10:20
Speaker 1: with that.
10:21
Speaker 2: I think you're right. I played a lot of music
10:24
Speaker 2: when I was younger, and I think certainly playing in
10:26
Speaker 2: a band or an orchestra, you're following a leader, but
10:29
Speaker 2: you're listening to the people around you. You're listening to
10:32
Speaker 2: the tone. You're listening to the rhythm. You're listening to
10:34
Speaker 2: the drums. And you have to coordinate with others. I mean,
10:39
Speaker 2: it truly is teamwork, as much as teamwork on a
10:43
Speaker 2: soccer team or a baseball team. Right, both. but using
10:47
Speaker 2: different tools and talents.
10:48
Speaker 1: Talking about teamwork, I just put a post up on
10:52
Speaker 1: Facebook this week asking what we could do to help
10:57
Speaker 1: fill the gaps that the kids aren't getting in school.
11:02
Speaker 1: And one interesting concept came up that some parents don't
11:09
Speaker 1: have the ability to take the kids higher in education
11:13
Speaker 1: than they are. But I think with these rhyming books
11:18
Speaker 1: like yours, any parent can help their kid learn how
11:23
Speaker 1: to read, whether they're a good reader or not, because
11:28
Speaker 1: it's just reciting these sing songs that together. And I
11:37
Speaker 1: think that's the key right there, regardless of how educated
11:40
Speaker 1: the parent is. It's just that time together. And books
11:45
Speaker 1: like yours and even mine, I have some, some of
11:51
Speaker 1: my rhymes are more about self-regulation. But these songs and
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Speaker 1: these rhymes that the parents could read with their kids,
12:02
Speaker 1: doesn't matter what education level they're at. They shouldn't have
12:07
Speaker 1: to wait for a teacher to teach the kids. They could,
12:11
Speaker 1: it starts at home. And it all starts with the
12:14
Speaker 1: love of words and the love of stories.
12:17
Speaker 2: I think you're right. You know, as a parent, my
12:20
Speaker 2: wife and I both read to our kids and they've
12:23
Speaker 2: done very well. But, you know, I remember sitting in
12:27
Speaker 2: the hallway between the three bedrooms and I read the
12:31
Speaker 2: entire Harry Potter series to my kids. And, you know,
12:34
Speaker 2: a new book was coming out every year or two
12:36
Speaker 2: and we just read. And the kids were even older
12:38
Speaker 2: and I was still reading it because it was something
12:40
Speaker 2: that we enjoyed together. and they saw that I loved it,
12:45
Speaker 2: and I tried to make it interesting. I didn't have to.
12:48
Speaker 2: The books were terrific, but the kids were really into it,
12:52
Speaker 2: and at a young age, they learned that reading was fun.
12:55
Speaker 2: These stories were fun, and that helped them a lot.
12:58
Speaker 2: I had written an article recently. I called it From
13:05
Speaker 2: Rhymes to Rhythm, and I was just looking at my notes.
13:09
Speaker 2: I jotted down a few things that parents and grandparents
13:12
Speaker 2: could do at home to help tie these things together.
13:15
Speaker 2: So I'll share that with you. When you're reading a
13:18
Speaker 2: rhyming book or story, as you're reading it, you don't
13:22
Speaker 2: have to be a teacher or a musician by background.
13:25
Speaker 2: Just try to maintain a steady beat as you read
13:27
Speaker 2: the words. So much of writing rhyme is difficult. And
13:31
Speaker 2: in fact, there are publishers that discourage authors from writing
13:36
Speaker 2: in rhyme because it can be so difficult. It Most
13:40
Speaker 2: of the uninitiated don't realize how difficult it is. It
13:43
Speaker 2: is tricky. And part of the reason is that you
13:46
Speaker 2: just can't come up with rhyming words. You have to
13:50
Speaker 2: tell the story. And so many times people force rhymes
13:53
Speaker 2: into a story just to make it sound good. So
13:56
Speaker 2: that's the first challenge. The second challenge is that you
13:59
Speaker 2: may get the rhymes right, but you don't get the
14:01
Speaker 2: rhythm right, the meter right. And for me, I think
14:05
Speaker 2: having the musical background helped me write rhymes effectively because
14:09
Speaker 2: of that. So when you're reading to a child a
14:12
Speaker 2: rhyming story, keep that rhythm in mind. You can even
14:16
Speaker 2: tap your foot or pat your leg out loud or
14:19
Speaker 2: ask the child to do that too. And that's a
14:22
Speaker 2: great way for them, even if they're not taking music lessons,
14:25
Speaker 2: they can start to get the idea of the rhythm
14:27
Speaker 2: and it helps with the anticipation and learning. When you
14:32
Speaker 2: come across words that are new, ask your child to
14:36
Speaker 2: clap out the syllables. And again, that's bringing rhythm into
14:40
Speaker 2: the learning process. And then I started to do this
14:44
Speaker 2: in some of my reading workshops. When you finish reading,
14:48
Speaker 2: then you can make up a song about the story,
14:50
Speaker 2: even just a few lines, and then sing it together
14:54
Speaker 2: with the kids. And that helps reinforce the learnings in
14:59
Speaker 2: the story as well. And it's easy to kind of
15:01
Speaker 2: make up. You know, you can take some of the...
15:05
Speaker 2: the words directly from the book and put it to
15:07
Speaker 2: a common melody. I have an example for you if
15:11
Speaker 2: you're interested.
15:11
Speaker 1: Please, yes.
15:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, I promise I'll pick up my guitar again for that.
15:17
Speaker 2: But here's an example. I wrote the words to the song,
15:22
Speaker 2: but I didn't write the music because the music is
15:25
Speaker 2: something that all the kids know already. The song is
15:28
Speaker 2: If You're Happy and You Know It. So sometimes I'll
15:30
Speaker 2: finish reading the book, me as mouses, and then I'll
15:33
Speaker 2: just sing a verse of If You're Happy and You
15:35
Speaker 2: Know It Clap your hands. And all the kids know
15:38
Speaker 2: those words and they all sing it, right? And then
15:41
Speaker 2: we go into my own lyrics. So I'll give you
15:45
Speaker 2: a couple of verses so you can hear it. If
15:48
Speaker 2: you see a lonely dog, it's a dog. If you
15:52
Speaker 2: see a lonely dog, it's a dog. If you see
15:55
Speaker 2: two or three, they are dogs, don't you see? If
15:58
Speaker 2: you see more than one, they are dogs. And that's
16:03
Speaker 2: the regular S sound. And so then I do a
16:06
Speaker 2: verse with fox and foxes for the E-S sound. The
16:11
Speaker 2: irregular E. I like this one. This is one of
16:13
Speaker 2: my favorites. If you look at the end of your leg,
16:16
Speaker 2: it's a foot. If you look at the end of
16:18
Speaker 2: your leg, it's a foot. But together you have two.
16:24
Speaker 2: So we call them feet, it's true. If you have
16:27
Speaker 2: more than one, they are feet. So we do that
16:33
Speaker 2: with sheep. I do that with leaf and leaps. And
16:35
Speaker 2: of course, because my book has mice and mouses, I
16:39
Speaker 2: end on, you know, if they're running through your houses,
16:43
Speaker 2: you have mice instead of mouses. If you have more
16:47
Speaker 2: than one, you have mice. So that's a fun way, right?
16:52
Speaker 2: It's a fun way to kind of reinforce those learnings.
16:56
Speaker 1: Love it. And the parents could do this. It's not difficult.
17:01
Speaker 1: You don't need a music background just to make up
17:03
Speaker 1: funny songs.
17:05
Speaker 2: No, and you don't need a guitar either. You can
17:07
Speaker 2: just sing it to a melody that the kids know already, right?
17:10
Speaker 2: You can use the ABC song, like you said. You
17:12
Speaker 2: can use that melody. It's already used for a dozen
17:16
Speaker 2: different songs.
17:17
Speaker 1: And then make up a dance.
17:20
Speaker 2: Now you're talking about it. Movement. Right. Movement and music.
17:24
Speaker 1: Yes.
17:25
Speaker 2: I love that.
17:27
Speaker 1: Well, How can people find your books?
17:32
Speaker 2: Good question. They really can find them certainly on Amazon.
17:40
Speaker 2: You can search for Mia's Mouses or you can search
17:45
Speaker 2: for my name, Joseph LeCary or Joseph LeCary author. I
17:52
Speaker 2: have a website, which is also easy to remember. It's www.miasmouses.com.
17:59
Speaker 2: So that's a great place. And then there are links
18:03
Speaker 2: on the homepage that can take you directly to Amazon
18:06
Speaker 2: and Barnes & Noble. And, you know, there's been a
18:11
Speaker 2: real increase, which I think is wonderful. There's been such
18:14
Speaker 2: an increase in indie bookstores. I don't know if you've
18:17
Speaker 2: seen that where you are as well, Francine, but I
18:20
Speaker 2: love these independent bookstores that are popping up all over.
18:24
Speaker 2: On Sunday, here on Long Island, I'm doing a program
18:28
Speaker 2: at an independent bookstore. It's inside a coffee shop. So
18:31
Speaker 2: it's a combined coffee shop and bookstore. And I'm going
18:34
Speaker 2: to be bringing my Mears Mouses program there and singing
18:37
Speaker 2: these songs and reading the books and families and kids
18:40
Speaker 2: will come and mom and dad or grandma can sit
18:42
Speaker 2: back with a cup of coffee while the kids are
18:44
Speaker 2: in the program. So I'm starting to do a lot
18:48
Speaker 2: with independent bookstores as well. And they can always order
18:53
Speaker 2: my books as well because they're available through Ingram. And
18:56
Speaker 2: as you know, Ingram is is the big book distributor
18:59
Speaker 2: throughout the world.
19:01
Speaker 1: Well, you know what? You should join Children's Authors Unite.
19:05
Speaker 2: Yes.
19:06
Speaker 1: We'll be streaming live on the next weekend is the
19:11
Speaker 1: 13th and 14th. Oh, no kidding.
19:13
Speaker 2: We're going to.
19:14
Speaker 1: Be streaming live, everybody watching this. If it's after June
19:20
Speaker 1: 13th and 14th, 2026, check the replay.
19:21
Speaker 2: We did it.
19:25
Speaker 1: For Christmas, this is going to be our kickoff to summer.
19:30
Speaker 1: Find all the great books for you and your kids
19:33
Speaker 1: to read over the summer. We have an activity book
19:38
Speaker 1: that you can get the link to get that activity
19:42
Speaker 1: book and find out more. So that's June 13th and 14th,
19:47
Speaker 1: live streaming to YouTube, LinkedIn, and Facebook. So if you
19:52
Speaker 1: want some more information about that, just drop a note
19:57
Speaker 1: in the comments and we will let you know all
20:00
Speaker 1: about it. But Joe, you are officially invited to come
20:03
Speaker 1: and take a 10-minute segment on that live stream.
20:07
Speaker 2: Oh, I'd love to do that. That sounds great. Awesome.
20:11
Speaker 1: Well, I love that we were able to explore how
20:17
Speaker 1: music helps kids learn. Because I was in music in school.
20:24
Speaker 1: From the fifth grade all the way up to my
20:27
Speaker 1: freshman year of college. And I know that it made
20:30
Speaker 1: a real difference in my life. Because when I said
20:35
Speaker 1: that it gives an element of Discipline. The discipline of
20:41
Speaker 1: practicing every day. It's the same with reading. So instead
20:47
Speaker 1: of practicing the notes and learning the songs and preparing
20:50
Speaker 1: for my band concerts, I also had to practice reading,
20:57
Speaker 1: practice math, and math. practice anything else I wanted to
21:02
Speaker 1: get good at. I'm a dancer too. I had to
21:05
Speaker 1: practice my dancing.
21:07
Speaker 2: Makes so much sense.
21:08
Speaker 1: I'm a public speaker. I practice my speaking.
21:11
Speaker 2: That's right.
21:12
Speaker 1: And you know that being a dancer has made me
21:15
Speaker 1: a better speaker because I've learned how to practice. I've
21:22
Speaker 1: learned how to memorize. I've learned how to put my
21:27
Speaker 1: body movements together with my words. And reading books is
21:32
Speaker 1: all the foundation for.
21:37
Speaker 2: That. It's so true. And more than the discipline, the
21:42
Speaker 2: discipline is absolutely, you're absolutely correct. The science is showing
21:46
Speaker 2: that between reading and music, you're sharing the same cognitive
21:51
Speaker 2: mechanisms and the same brain regions for both music and reading.
21:55
Speaker 2: And when children start, you know, their brains are still growing, right?
22:00
Speaker 2: To me, it's very much the same as trying to
22:04
Speaker 2: learn a second language when you're 45. That's tough, right?
22:08
Speaker 2: But if you learn when you're very young, and I
22:12
Speaker 2: think schools don't even begin teaching a second language early enough.
22:15
Speaker 2: I think they should start even earlier. Because when your
22:18
Speaker 2: brain is still forming, the neuroplasticity of your brain, when
22:23
Speaker 2: your brain is introduced to all of these other things,
22:25
Speaker 2: you're starting to grow all those neural pathways. And that's
22:29
Speaker 2: your chance in life to really capture all of that.
22:31
Speaker 2: So that's a great thing to do for your kids.
22:34
Speaker 2: Let them go dancing. Let them learn music. They don't
22:38
Speaker 2: have to be concert pianists or lifelong musicians, but exposing
22:43
Speaker 2: them to music when they're young really goes a long
22:46
Speaker 2: way in terms of helping their education because it starts
22:49
Speaker 2: to form their brain in a way. It's exercising their
22:52
Speaker 2: brain as it's growing in those early years. So that
22:56
Speaker 2: plus the discipline. I think is really a wonderful thing
22:59
Speaker 2: parents can do for their kids.
23:02
Speaker 1: Yes. And you heard it here on Parents Talk. Well,
23:08
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on the show. This
23:12
Speaker 1: was amazing. And I'm going to make sure that you
23:17
Speaker 1: have all the information for Children's Authors Unite live stream
23:24
Speaker 1: or check the replay if it's after June 13th and 14th, 2026.
23:30
Speaker 1: Check out our website, Children's Authors Unite, and find out
23:34
Speaker 1: when our next live stream is if the summer restream
23:39
Speaker 1: is already over. Joe, thank you so much for coming on,
23:44
Speaker 1: and we'll do this again sometime.
23:46
Speaker 2: All right. Thank you very much, Francine. Appreciate it.