Latest / Harder Than Life / How to Reinvent Yourself When Your Old Identity Stops Working | Andrea Petrone

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How to Reinvent Yourself When Your Old Identity Stops Working | Andrea Petrone · Harder Than Life

0:00
What's really your purpose?
0:02
And to me is the first question.
0:05
I see people with a very increased level of depression right now.
0:09
Just in the US in 2025, 40% of CEOs that left their job, they said, no, it doesn't matter how much I get paid.
0:17
I cannot do it.
0:18
I sacrificed my entire family.
0:20
I sacrificed my entire health.
0:23
I'm a little bit more concerned for what I see to the mental health and what's the implication of that, because no uncommon see suicides of people, even at CO level, they have taken their own life based on what they're dealing with.
0:34
Money won't make you happy, but happiness will make you money.
0:39
We don't necessarily need to stand for something big as Nelson Mandela, but we need to stand for something.
0:44
Are you behaving in accordance with the message that is already aligned with your identity?
0:49
So the question for ourself is how people experience us right now?
0:53
And that is probably the biggest limitation in people's life because we are stuck in our own bias.
0:59
So perception is the biggest trap.
1:01
If someone is listening, changes one thing in the next 30 days,
1:05
What should it be?
1:07
Read the situation right now and do two things.
1:09
One is...
1:12
My guest today has spent 20 years in rooms with CEOs on their hardest days.
1:17
They call him the CEO whisperer.
1:19
And he says the thing that breaks people at the top is almost never competence.
1:24
It's the pressure that pulls you away from yourself.
1:28
His name is Andrea Petroni.
1:30
If you have ever walked out of a room knowing you said the right thing, but not the true thing, this episode is for you.
1:41
Welcome back to the Heart of Life show.
1:43
Today, I swear I'm the luckiest guy on earth.
1:47
I get to be coached by the CEO Whisperer.
1:50
And guys, you're going to want to hear this because I'm in the muck right now of releasing my identity that got me here.
1:58
All of you HDL Nation people know I share it all on social media, on other podcasts.
2:03
There's no coincidence that Andrea is here today.
2:06
So I
2:07
Thank you for being here.
2:08
Welcome to the show.
2:10
Kelly, thank you so much for inviting me.
2:12
And it sounds like a perfect time for you to have this conversation.
2:15
So looking forward to inspire you, if possible, and give you maybe some thoughts and ideas how to deal with a current situation that you're dealing with.
2:22
I love it.
2:23
Pressure doesn't create great leaders.
2:26
It reveals them.
2:27
What does it reveal that most people are not ready to see?
2:31
I think leaders and individuals right now, they're really dealing with something that is quite unexpected at a very personal level.
2:40
I mean, we can say pressure has been always there for all of us.
2:44
You know, pressure to deliver, pressure that we have in family.
2:46
Pressure is a part of the game.
2:49
And, you know, we know from athletes, pressure is really what energizes them, is what they are...
2:55
That's why they are in the game.
2:56
So pressure is not really something new.
2:59
Pressure has been there.
3:00
But what really has shifted in my experience in the last years has been more about the increased level of expectation people have on us to deliver something in whatever role that we have in life.
3:13
So that's one element.
3:16
And you might say, Kelly, but why expectations are increasing?
3:18
But expectations are increasing because we have less time to deliver stuff.
3:23
We have expectations that we build for ourselves.
3:25
We have expectations coming from whoever owns the company that we work with.
3:30
We have expectations from society.
3:32
We have expectations from media.
3:34
So there are a number of reasons why expectations increase.
3:37
Yeah.
3:38
And, of course, there are new trends and new forces that are hitting on us strongly than ever.
3:45
There are so many things that are essentially giving us more level of uncertainty.
3:50
So, pressure, expectation, uncertainty.
3:52
If we bring everything together,
3:55
God, I mean, we are really facing a hard time as individuals to deal with all of that.
4:00
And during the moment of pressure like this, unfortunately or fortunately, something emerges, which is really who we are.
4:09
And sometimes who we are is perfectly fit for the pressure that we're dealing with.
4:14
And sometimes we are not.
4:16
I couldn't agree more personally, and I'm only speaking for me.
4:20
The watching other people on social media and also friends of mine succeed despite all odds drives me insane.
4:30
So the comparison is the thief of joy, but I find myself comparing myself no matter what, and it drives me insane.
4:38
So what is that revealing about me?
4:42
Well, there is something there.
4:44
So let's, you know, let's explore it.
4:47
So what do you feel different right now, Kelly, compared to how you felt before?
4:53
You said the media, the social media.
4:55
How do you feel that you are yourself at the moment?
4:58
My coach and everybody that's close to me has been saying, Kelly, you've been performing.
5:05
I ask questions based on what I think the audience wants to hear, not what I want to know.
5:11
And the last couple of episodes, especially right now, I'm just being me.
5:17
I just finished an IFS therapy and I'm not quite sure who that guy is, but I just aspire to help people and move forward and be better.
5:28
And I find myself and I don't argue with them.
5:30
They're right.
5:31
I say what I think they want to hear versus what I want to hear.
5:37
In my experience, Kelly, that is a moment where we feel that something's going on.
5:43
Something is not right.
5:45
Right.
5:45
And it sounds like you are dealing with something similar.
5:49
And normally is when we start to face the reality is our past identity is.
5:54
is not serving to what we are dealing with right now.
5:57
So something else needs to be potentially created for you.
6:01
And by the way, that is not an easy process.
6:03
And sometimes it takes time for us to be 100% clear.
6:07
What is the new identity that we're looking for?
6:10
However, what you're pointing to, to me, is such a great point, as I say, because if people are not aware that whatever happened in the past, whatever past version of themselves,
6:23
is not serving anymore, the purpose of what they're dealing with, that is even a bigger challenge, right?
6:29
Because people that are not aware, how can you realize that your past identity is not serving you anymore?
6:36
And I'm sure they serve you in the past.
6:39
That is the power of our identity.
6:41
Back to the first question then, what does the pressure reveal?
6:45
So let's use me.
6:46
What is it revealing about me?
6:48
Because to me,
6:50
The more the pressure amps up, the stronger and more focused and more dialed in I get.
6:56
But I'm realizing that what got me here won't get me there.
7:00
And what got me here will keep me here.
7:02
And that's usually when I just I feel the pressure and I proceed despite the pressure.
7:08
And then I make decisions based on the old me, which is more fear and scarcity base.
7:15
What is this pressure revealing about me that?
7:18
I'm missing, and I'm one of the most self-aware people.
7:21
We're gonna get into self-awareness because that's another problem, people denying it.
7:26
So just let's talk about, I usually hit force with force.
7:30
What is it saying about me?
7:32
First, there's something that is not working for you.
7:36
So that's clearly, it's the sign.
7:38
And by the way, it's not necessarily negative.
7:40
No, I was just building.
7:42
It's not necessarily negative, but the fact that you feel like something is not as it's supposed to be, that's a great starting point.
7:50
I think what is really revealing to me is that there is either lack of clarity for you in terms of what's really your purpose?
8:01
And to me is the first question.
8:04
So I have a sense, I might be wrong because we just met,
8:08
that what you stand for as a person, as a leader, is not necessarily clear to you.
8:14
And when I say what I stand for, I mean literally, because, you know, we know from society, we all experienced amazing leaders in the past, you know, not only politicians, but really people that mobilize people, you know, Mandela, Nelson Mandela is one of them.
8:31
He stood for something.
8:32
And it was very clear to everybody what he stood for.
8:35
You know, equality, you know, no racism.
8:39
And we all know that.
8:42
At a personal individual level, we don't necessarily need to stand for something big as Nelson Mandela, but we need to stand for something.
8:49
Do we stand for being ourselves?
8:51
Do we stand for building an empire?
8:55
Do we stand for generosity?
8:57
Do we stand for X, Y, Z?
8:59
Yeah.
9:00
So when people say purpose, I would say what we really stand for, because the purpose could be sometimes a little bit fluffy, you know, not specific, because what you stand for is what you're going to commit to.
9:15
And what you stand for, it will inform what kind of identity is needed to fulfill what you have in mind.
9:23
So to me, that is a good question for you to start with.
9:27
What you stand for.
9:29
put me on the spot.
9:30
Thank you, Andrea.
9:31
I know you asked for it.
9:32
So no, I'm going to do it because my follow up was going to be, what does my heart and life nation do?
9:39
What do I stand for?
9:41
What I stand for feels abnormal to what mainstream society believes.
9:48
I believe most people are good.
9:51
I believe that the world is good.
9:54
My heart is fluttering when I'm saying this, by the way.
9:57
I believe that we are all created equal.
10:01
And our lives can be what anything we want it to be.
10:06
I was a poor, abused kid that grew up in absolute terrible conditions.
10:13
And now I've made something of myself.
10:15
I have a top podcast.
10:17
I have two bestselling books, a third on the way.
10:20
If I can do it, anyone can do it.
10:23
And it hurts my heart to see people suffer, especially when they're doing it to themselves mostly.
10:30
So you asked me why I wanted, I am a world changer and I'm going to inspire, educate and lead the way.
10:37
I'm the lead bird flying and there's no birds beside me or even saying, you're right.
10:43
I get more flack from people around me.
10:46
Like that's not the way the world is.
10:47
And I'm like, it is to me.
10:49
I don't know, I'm a crusader.
10:51
And I just, I feel like sometimes I'm an alien of one.
10:56
To me, that is great.
10:57
So you have clarity about that.
11:00
So the next question would be, why are you thinking, because you said, I'm not clear who I am right now.
11:06
So where do you think there is at the moment a sort of disconnection between the
11:12
The identity that you had before, and I'm sure that you have created your own identity, I call in the book achieved identity or origin identity, meaning normally is a product of our education.
11:25
It's a product of our values.
11:27
It's a product of our experience.
11:29
So we all become somebody on the back of things that we believe to.
11:35
things that happen to us.
11:37
And that, in our experience, normally it happens way, way earlier.
11:41
Normally when we are a teenager or so, we build the success, the new identity to fight what we dealt with.
11:50
We build the identity that helps us to survive and thrive in life.
11:56
So normally that identity could last forever because that identity is sufficient for what we're dealing with.
12:03
But I bet in your moment right now, as many leaders I work with, I talk to, and a lot of example in the book, there is a moment, and I call it a pivotal moment, or the defining moment, probably is a better word.
12:17
A defining moment when you started to realize that whatever you created to succeed in life...
12:25
is not sufficient.
12:26
It's not enough because something else is needed from you.
12:31
We don't necessarily know what it is about, but something is not sufficient.
12:35
And I mean, me as an entrepreneur, as you are, etc., I've been through this at least twice in my life.
12:43
This moment of...
12:44
not being clear who I am, not being clear who I want to be.
12:47
Or maybe I have an idea, but I said, you know, if I don't change something about it, I will never get there.
12:55
So something else is needed for me to fulfill what I stand for, for the future, for myself.
13:04
And that is really a true moment.
13:06
That's why it's very introspective.
13:07
It's not an easy moment for us.
13:09
What happened, my identity, I said it in a cliche, what got me here will keep me here.
13:14
But my identity became a liability.
13:18
It became my ceiling.
13:19
A lot of times I'll say, your healing is your ceiling.
13:23
And I got to a point in my healing where I couldn't unsee that my identity, for lack of a better word, was bullshit.
13:33
and that's as blunt and as vulnerable as I can get.
13:36
I created this tough, harder than life persona to get me through tough times, because when I was a child, my parents beat me so much that I became a tough, big, strong man, so that wouldn't happen.
13:51
And I got to a point where I can't unsee that, and that's where I'm at right now.
13:55
It's like, oh, that got me here.
14:00
but it is an absolute liability to me now and I need to shed it.
14:05
So when does that flip for everybody?
14:07
Because people, I can guarantee you someone's in their car right now or they're working out and they're like, oh my God, that's me.
14:13
When do you see with your people you work with, when does that flip?
14:16
For me, I'm 50 and I ran and I interviewed an IFS therapist and that just changed my life.
14:24
Don't know why it happened.
14:26
but it did.
14:26
First of all, one comment about what you're dealing with.
14:29
And again, it's not personal, but I think it's going to help, you know, the listeners about if they're dealing with something similar.
14:36
I would say that potentially you are not complete from that past because normally when you feel fully complete about the past, you don't feel what you're probably feeling right now.
14:48
So there is a moment of say, and sometimes it's really just a matter of, you know,
14:54
Say, just say strongly, I'm complete with whatever pass happened to me.
14:58
I'm complete with that.
14:59
Now I can really open the door for something else.
15:02
Pause for a second.
15:03
Did you say I'm complete?
15:05
Complete.
15:05
Correct.
15:06
Complete.
15:08
I work well on action.
15:09
So I'm complete.
15:10
It's a moment of truth and say, am I really complete?
15:13
But sometimes we complete about something that happened in the past just because we say so.
15:18
So we want to be, we want to face the reality is the past is the past and we need to be complete.
15:23
Otherwise, it's really hard opening new doors.
15:27
So that's something that is worth thinking about it.
15:30
To the second question, I said, okay, how people know when is the time for shifting, right?
15:36
Well, that shift is needed.
15:38
And again, that is circling back to the pressure.
15:42
So, and there are some very specific practical examples.
15:45
Especially, you know, in my line of business is in organization.
15:48
So it might be different, you know, when you deal in other reality or context, but in organization primarily, you started to feel like a number of things.
15:58
And I give you some examples.
15:59
One is you speak, but you're not really sure about what you're talking.
16:05
You know that you are rambling or saying things, they don't really make a difference.
16:10
You're not even clear why you're saying some of the stuff you say.
16:13
But you say anyway.
16:15
One, sometimes it's like we are performing...
16:19
In not necessarily a negative way, but we're performing because we are trying to mask or to hide what really is our own identity gap.
16:28
That's what I call it in the book.
16:29
And we use words in a particular way, you know, just to get off of the hook most of the time.
16:36
So the way how you speak normally is a very good sign for those people that can actually really...
16:42
listen intentionally what people say, how people show up, right?
16:46
And they're saying, and on my level, you know, when I speak with CEOs, that's what I really interesting about it.
16:51
What they say, is it clear what they say?
16:54
Is unmistakable?
16:55
Does actually lead to interpretation?
16:58
Do they say something today and tomorrow?
17:01
They say something that is a contradiction.
17:04
Yeah.
17:05
is it they keep the same message consistently.
17:07
And that is become, and I don't know whether you want to go there, but this is a part of the architecture, what I call the through line in the book, is once you're clear that your past identity doesn't work anymore, well, it's a time to start rebuilding your own new identity.
17:22
And there is a number of ways to do it.
17:24
But also, the second point is, okay, what's your message?
17:28
How your message is aligned with...
17:31
to the identity, because if it's not, right, the question is, you know, how can you, can you really bring the identity to life?
17:41
And the third element of the true line architecture is your presence.
17:45
Are you behaving in accordance with the message that is already aligned with your identity?
17:50
So to your question, Kelly, normally it shows up to people.
17:55
Because people experience in you, whether you're listeners, whether people around you, they might probably perceive that there's something that's going on.
18:05
And that is a reflection on lack of clarity of your identity, because your message maybe is not always clear, it's not always straight, or it does necessarily offer to people a very...
18:15
strong clarity in terms of how you stand for.
18:17
And maybe how you show up is also a little bit strange for people because at the end of the day, it's all about how people experience you.
18:25
So the question for ourselves is how people experience us right now.
18:29
So the book is an opportunity, I suppose, Kelly, to reflect on these things and see, are you aligned?
18:35
Are you in balance or out of balance in one of these three major pillars?
18:41
Because if you are through self-reflection and awareness,
18:44
then you can do something about it.
18:46
But if you are not, well, good luck because context is shifting around you and you don't see it.
18:53
So the past identity wins.
18:55
How much of that can be just the wrong audience as well?
18:59
Because a leader can say all the right things and still lose a room.
19:04
I'm speaking from experience.
19:06
Sure.
19:07
Sometimes I'm in the wrong room and sometimes I'm watching that as I've grown,
19:14
A lot of my staff have fallen off because they were the old identity.
19:20
But how much of that can be the wrong room and how much of it is the incongruency?
19:25
Because I'm trying to rack my brain and think about, am I incongruent in any way, shape, or form?
19:30
And I don't see it.
19:32
It could be a blind spot, but I don't say one thing and do another.
19:36
I live my life.
19:39
Honestly, with integrity in my bathroom, it says, love everybody and tell the truth.
19:44
I am love.
19:46
I want everybody to succeed.
19:48
And I am I model the behaviors it takes to succeed.
19:54
How much could be just the wrong room?
19:55
Or is there something else with your expertise?
20:00
How can somebody say the right things and still lose a room?
20:03
I think it's not a matter of, Kelly, as a very important distinction.
20:07
I don't think it's a matter of say the right thing or say the wrong thing.
20:10
It's more a matter of say something that is aligned to what you really stand for, which is different.
20:18
Because I'll give you an example.
20:20
If I stand for, imagine that I'm a CEO or I'm a...
20:26
Yeah, let's take some examples here that's closer to me, to my world.
20:31
If a CEO says, you know, we want to grow our company, our business, we want to become the number one in the industry, we want to do X, Y, Z.
20:41
And then the next thing that he says is, in the next occasion is, yeah, but we need to reduce costs.
20:47
Yeah, but also we need to get rid of people because people, they are not really in service of that.
20:52
That is an example of inconsistencies.
20:54
It's not the right or wrong in what people say, but it's different than what people are really standing for.
21:00
So it's more about alignment with identity versus the alignment with what is right or wrong because there's nothing right or wrong.
21:07
What we say is what we say as long as it matters.
21:10
It's more about is he aligned with the change I want to really create?
21:15
I've seen CEOs changing through the coaching that I do, but also some people clearly without me, they don't need me.
21:23
But I've seen people, how they have been able to shift the context.
21:26
They say, great, I was X until yesterday.
21:29
I'm going to be Y from today.
21:32
And that's how my message is going to change because that's exactly what I want to portray.
21:38
That's how I want to mobilize people.
21:40
And again, it's the context shifted that should be a shift in your identity, which is really an important distinction because the identity at personal level, it's more about our core values.
21:53
And you said it, your core values, they don't change it, will not change it.
21:57
And please don't change it because these are amazing core values.
22:01
But your leadership identity is something slightly different.
22:03
The leadership identity is the kind of a leader that is needed right now in a specific context.
22:10
So that is not necessarily related to your core values.
22:14
It's more related to the context is shifted.
22:17
If the company is going through crisis, their identity should change it.
22:21
If the company is going to require a different intervention, their identity needs to be shifted.
22:27
So it's more about reading the context and see, how am I doing for that context?
22:34
Am I the right leader, the right person for that moment?
22:38
I asked last week, what is it like to sit across from me?
22:44
And I got unequivocally intimidating.
22:49
And I was like, what?
22:50
Because I try to embody love.
22:52
And I listened.
22:53
I'm extremely intentional about everything I do.
22:56
And my core value, number one core value is excellence.
23:00
And I know it's a tough core value, but if I...
23:04
performed excellently.
23:06
Another word for it to me is extraordinary.
23:09
Because a lot of people are ordinary and you just do a little extra and you add extraordinary, you get extraordinary.
23:14
I don't wanna live an average life.
23:16
So I use excellence and if I'm not being excellent, I wanna understand that and that scares people.
23:22
I don't know what to do about that.
23:24
That's where I get confused.
23:25
That's where I feel like I'm different than everybody else.
23:28
But I can imagine that all of the CEOs that you coach or that you work with all feel the same.
23:33
By the way, it's a great example, excellence, because that's standards, right?
23:38
These are your standards.
23:40
These are your personal standards.
23:41
And you try through integrity to stay really consistent with the standards.
23:47
Now, do they scare people?
23:50
Possibly, but these are your standards.
23:51
And your message, I'm sure, is connected and related to that standard because that is what you stand for.
23:57
I stand for, you know, being excellent.
24:00
Now, to me, nothing wrong, actually, that is great, having a level of commitment.
24:05
Now, the risk that you might potentially face, as many others in the world, they're raising expectations on people and assuming that all the other people that are working with us or around us, they can achieve the same standards, or they can stand to the same thing that you stand for, which might not be right and probably is not even fair.
24:25
Because not necessarily people that have the same standards that we have.
24:28
Now, you can build, if you're a company, you can build a company based on the standards that you're looking for.
24:34
Absolutely, 100%.
24:35
But having expectation on people to commit to the same thing that you committed to, sometimes it could be a little bit forceful.
24:44
And especially when it comes to our personal life.
24:47
That sometimes triggers people because we have high expectation, we become perfectionist and people, they don't accept it.
24:55
I've seen so many leaders, so many leaders, Kelly, believe me, go into that direction of be perfectionist to the maximum standard.
25:04
And that killed them, at least, you know, not clearly, not, you know, from a personal perspective or in terms of their performance.
25:13
They killed their performance because the people, they couldn't cope it.
25:16
They couldn't stand.
25:17
They couldn't keep the same pace and standard they were asking for.
25:21
Now you have a question.
25:21
Do I have the right people with me or not?
25:23
That is a great question to ask of that.
25:25
So that, I think, is the hardest job, you know, as a leader.
25:29
How can I find the right balance to protect my standards but at the same time be so far away from the people that I work with or I deal with every day?
25:39
This is so good.
25:40
I've heard you say...
25:42
performance, purpose, and perception several times now.
25:48
We're 25 minutes into this.
25:49
Performance, purpose, perception.
25:51
Which of those three traps do you see the most, and why is it the hardest for us to see in ourselves?
25:58
I would say perception, because perception be reality all the time.
26:03
And that is the hard truth of human beings and psychology.
26:08
I mean, you are a learner.
26:11
You are a student of life, Kelly, and probably you have seen that for yourself.
26:15
How many times we are trapped into our own perception and we believe our perception, their absolute truth, and then we don't challenge anymore what we feel anymore.
26:24
what we think about stuff.
26:26
And that is probably the biggest limitation in people's life because we are stuck in our own bias and perception and that will become...
26:34
So perception is the biggest trap.
26:36
Be able to make...
26:39
identify what is an interpretation versus what is reality, it's difficult for us, not only for people there, for everybody.
26:50
It's difficult.
26:52
So that is the trap, because when we start to perceive that our employees are not engaged, and then you started to build it in your mind and say, yes, they're not engaged, they're not engaged, they're not engaged.
27:04
Clearly, they're not engaged now in your mind, because...
27:07
It's your truth.
27:09
You are not going to challenge that anymore.
27:11
So you're not listening.
27:12
You're not anymore engaging in conversation because you feel like it's useless.
27:17
Because anyway, I have made already the decision because that's what I see.
27:21
That to me is the secret, by the way, to unlock personal performance, business performance, business.
27:29
learning, innovation.
27:30
So you name it, it's all about that.
27:33
And that has been an experience.
27:35
You know, I do a lot of work on perception.
27:37
So because that's part of the mindset, part of the work.
27:41
So that's to me is number one.
27:44
How much of my performance could be from the feeling of unworthiness?
27:51
Do you see a lot of that?
27:52
Yeah, I do.
27:54
It's amazing how many high achieving men have unworthiness and shame.
28:01
And I've been trying to talk about this more and more.
28:04
And since I've been doing it, people are like, whoa, me too.
28:06
Me too.
28:07
I mean, I live a great life.
28:11
I am healthy.
28:13
I have a healthy family.
28:15
How could I feel shame?
28:17
Where do you find, are you seeing that as well in the people you work with?
28:23
I do, but he lives most of the time in the background, Kelly.
28:27
He lives in the background of people.
28:28
So people, especially at the level I coach,
28:32
they're not going out and say, I feel shame.
28:36
I'm not confident.
28:37
I'm terrible.
28:38
Sorry.
28:39
Why am I here?
28:40
Yeah, exactly.
28:42
They don't really do that.
28:43
But, you know, between closed door, normally that happens in coaching as you realize.
28:50
In coaching, there is a completely different reality.
28:53
And, you know, that's really lives in perception.
28:55
It lives in perception of I'm not good enough here.
28:59
Look, I got paid maybe a million dollars for a salary.
29:03
I have 3,000 or 5,000 people waiting for me to make decisions.
29:07
Every single hour, I need to make decisions.
29:09
And whatever decision I make, it will have a huge implication on shareholders, my people,
29:15
Am I good enough to make this decision?
29:17
Or am I to do it?
29:19
Now, the great thing about coaching, I would say, is those people that I coach, those people that I talk to, as you said, you used the word before, the vulnerability.
29:28
They have the vulnerability to say openly, although again, in closed door, hey, that's how I feel every single day.
29:36
You must be amazed how many CEOs I interviewed and I coached.
29:39
They came to me and said, I'm not confident.
29:42
I'm sorry.
29:43
I cannot say this to everybody, but help me because I don't feel like I'm good enough for the challenge.
29:50
Now, if we build from where we started, right, increased level of pressure, increased level of expectation, imagine how leaders are dealing with right now.
29:58
And by the way,
30:00
I'm biased because I work with CEOs, so I tend to defend or protect the world of CEOs because I see so many great people.
30:07
They're trying to do their best, honestly.
30:10
Clearly, there are some bad examples in society.
30:14
But the people I have the opportunity to work with, and I talked to them in my pod, the World Class Leader Show, where I have amazing CEOs coming, they're
30:23
I can tell you, these are amazing people that are trying to change the world.
30:26
They're really trying, but they don't know necessarily how to do it.
30:31
Lean in, man, lean in.
30:32
I made myself two notes, two conflicting notes.
30:35
And then I make show notes in front of me.
30:38
And I'm in awe of two notes that absolutely clash a little bit.
30:45
So I'm gonna read them to you.
30:48
And let's dissect them to the things.
30:50
I put here, lies are polished.
30:53
And then I put in my show notes, some leaders speak in polished bullet points.
31:02
What is the tell that a person has stopped saying what they actually believe?
31:08
Can you believe?
31:09
These were written at two separate times.
31:12
And then I say thoughts are magical lies.
31:14
What's going on, Andrea?
31:16
Make some sense of this for me.
31:18
Well, that is performing.
31:19
That is an example of, is a performance theater.
31:23
People speak for be nice, be light and appreciate it.
31:28
And that's people how they talk.
31:29
And that's how it shows up as well all the time in presentation, in events, in conferences.
31:35
They don't speak from the heart.
31:37
They don't speak from, and you do.
31:39
So, you know, just listening to you, it's just amazing because I know that you're speaking from your heart.
31:46
You said the soul cue.
31:47
And I believe it, and I can see, I can feel it.
31:50
I know how to listen to people.
31:52
And I've seen many other people that are just performing, and as you say, they're talking in bullet points.
31:58
They're talking with jargons.
32:00
They're talking with buzzwords.
32:01
I mean, guys, can we really start sharing our own personal stories?
32:05
Can we be open enough to say what we're dealing with in front of people?
32:10
People will love it.
32:11
People will love us more if we are open enough to say, hey, look, I made a decision last week.
32:16
It was a terrible failure.
32:18
And I'm sorry if I created that.
32:21
But unfortunately, we have seen many, many times, instead of taking responsibility for something that doesn't work, they start pointing fingers and maybe firing people, say, that was you blaming and pointing a finger just for not taking responsibility.
32:37
I mean, this world needs to change at all levels.
32:40
Yes, it does.
32:41
And that's why the harder than life podcast exists.
32:43
And I'm going to tell the listeners right now, I'm going to shameless plug guys, email me, Kelly at harder than life.com and just tell me what part of he just said resonates with you because all the CEOs and every leader, it's not just a CEO, everybody that's doing something to lead.
33:01
That's not falling in the pack is feeling this stuff.
33:05
So I can't believe I've gone 35 minutes into this and I haven't asked you about, you know,
33:09
drinking and drugs.
33:11
How often are you coaching or working with someone where they're medicating?
33:18
I'm hoping you're going to say it's less and less because I'm seeing it less and less, but a lot still are stuck.
33:27
with drinking and drugs, especially in the United States where cannabis weed has become legal everywhere and it's become so commonplace.
33:36
How often is drinking and drugs a correlation, not the causation?
33:41
Because for me, before I quit, it was the correlation to a lot of my challenges.
33:47
It wasn't the reason.
33:48
The root was my
33:51
unworthiness, shame, unlovability, these lies that I told myself to cope through my terrible childhood.
34:00
That was the real culprit.
34:01
And once I healed that, the drinking and drugs just fell off.
34:05
How much are you seeing that?
34:06
And if somebody is using just a little bit to medicate, what do you tell your people?
34:12
What do you coach your people?
34:13
Complete 100% no?
34:15
I don't think it's 100% no, but it's less and less as you were hoping for.
34:21
Now, at some level, you might think that people, they don't necessarily share with the coach what they're doing, you know, privately at that level.
34:32
You might have a sense of it, but they don't necessarily come in conversation and say, I have a drinking problem.
34:37
I had an example of one person, so there aren't really many.
34:41
One example that he had, not drug, but drinking problem.
34:45
But honestly, it was so clear.
34:48
It was the best possible reaction to forget what he was really dealing with.
34:55
And that's not uncommon.
34:56
That's, you know, we know what the drinking normally means for people.
35:00
It's a way out, right?
35:01
It's a way out for the challenge, the problem that we face every single day.
35:05
However, I'm going to tell you this, which is not necessarily related to drinking and drugs, but it's more about health, depression, and burnout.
35:13
Yeah.
35:15
which is still important because I've seen people with a very increased level of depression right now.
35:21
And again, that level of pressure expectation is increasing depression, is increasing mental health.
35:27
Just in the US in 2025, 40% of CEOs, they left their job.
35:32
And they made a research and most of them, they left because they couldn't do it anymore.
35:38
Too much, too much.
35:39
And they had a sort of implication that,
35:43
From a health perspective, they said, no, it doesn't matter how much I get paid.
35:47
I cannot do it.
35:49
I had an amazing CEO on my podcast, a CEO of a very large organization in the US.
35:55
And he said, look, when I retired, I think now he's about probably 65-ish, when I retired,
36:03
It normally happens at the end when you start to have your own reflection about your past, your story, your experiences, all of that.
36:11
I said, you have no idea how many things I sacrificed for this work.
36:14
I sacrificed my entire family.
36:17
I sacrificed my entire health.
36:19
I had a number of health issues.
36:22
And the only reason why I had it, because work, it was impossible, the level of pressure I had at the time.
36:28
So drinking could be a habit that you develop as a reaction to something that you're dealing with.
36:37
I'm a little bit more concerned for what I see to the mental health and what's the implication of that.
36:42
Because no uncommon see suicides of people that even at CO level, they have taken their own life based on what they're dealing with.
36:50
I only do it when I know somebody's in need.
36:53
And I'm finding that it doesn't come up, as you said, they don't say, I have a drinking problem.
36:58
But I'll ask questions such as like this.
37:01
What do you do to unwind?
37:03
And I'll hear, well, I have a drink.
37:07
Or I go to the gym and I say, what do you do after?
37:10
Will I have a drink?
37:11
I usually can pull it out of them.
37:14
And the one that just gets masked over and over is the cannabis.
37:18
And so my soapbox to people is, you know, if you can cultivate a life, which we all can, that you love,
37:27
you don't need anything to make it better.
37:30
Meaning you don't need a toxicity, you don't need an alcohol or drugs.
37:35
It's not gonna make it better, it is known poison.
37:38
So I'm gonna get on a soapbox and say, unless it's one, it should be none.
37:44
That's my opinion.
37:45
Because if you're sitting in your feelings,
37:49
You remember I said sealing is healing, and so is feeling is healing.
37:54
So there's a correlation there, guys, and I would tell you this much.
37:58
Money won't make you happy, but happiness will make you money.
38:02
So focus on that.
38:04
And if you're using masks and crutches for drinking and drugs or anything, it could be women.
38:10
It could be social media.
38:12
It could be Netflix.
38:14
You're robbing yourself.
38:15
You're robbing your new identity.
38:17
So whatever that is.
38:19
Now, now take what I just said and polish it up in your experience and say it back to me.
38:25
Tell it back to the listeners.
38:27
I would say the good news is, at least from this side of the world, meaning the UK where I live, but also broadly speaking Europe, I can tell you, Kelly, that's probably less of an issue right now.
38:41
For example...
38:43
Sports is something that a lot of people, they are now taking sports so seriously to chill out, right?
38:51
To get rid of all the pressure they have, people running very early in the morning.
38:55
I see how people are starting to shift their way of living, really, and living in this world of increased level of pressure.
39:04
I would say, but that's my observation, you know, after COVID hit,
39:09
there's been also a major trigger on shifting and changing people's behaviors about health.
39:15
So the fact that people have been walking, I don't know about you, but during COVID time, I was walking one hour and a half every day.
39:22
I didn't walk before.
39:23
I'm a sport guy.
39:25
But I never used to walk.
39:26
And I started to enjoy walking as if I couldn't.
39:29
It was like my own drag was I needed to walk for releasing tension, for thinking strategically.
39:37
So I would say the good news, I see a lot of CEOs that regardless what they're dealing with, they found some much more healthy behaviors and habits.
39:45
to respond to that level of pressure, less about drugs and drinking.
39:51
But now, again, you never know because sometimes, unfortunately, you don't see it, but that is happening.
39:58
So what I heard is I need to move to the UK because I'm going to tell you right now, in the United States, during COVID, it was like day drinking was the thing.
40:07
I'm going to pick on – I better not say names, but I had close people, friends that were like –
40:12
That's literally what they did.
40:13
They drank way more because you were sitting around doing nothing.
40:17
I was like you.
40:18
I declared war on my mental and physical health.
40:22
And when it first hit, I ordered immediately a home gym and built a home gym because I knew it was going to last more than two weeks.
40:30
And then I discovered gratitude walks.
40:32
Holy smokes, guys.
40:34
Gratitude walks.
40:35
And as I've healed, the gratitude walks become these things.
40:39
I get to see the world that I didn't, that I had been masking for years.
40:43
I noticed the sky is bluer.
40:46
The clouds are fluffier.
40:48
I may be floating.
40:50
And it's all with my mindset and just being present.
40:54
Growing up the way I grew up,
40:56
I always had to talk my way out of everything.
40:58
And I like to say a lot, God gave you two eyes, two ears and one mouth for a reason to use in that order.
41:05
And what you're hearing from me is speaking a lot less hard to do for someone who gives keynotes than someone who has a podcast.
41:12
But I'm finding that the less I speak, the more my message lands.
41:18
What's the psychology behind that?
41:19
Could you speak with influence, you know, speaking through words, you speak with influence, with impact.
41:26
So you have a very clear ability to make sure every single word that you use is intentional, like you said it, but also lands on people.
41:37
So that's how I'm perceiving you right now.
41:40
You landed.
41:41
You landed.
41:42
And there is a different way of describing it.
41:44
It's called an engagement, calling the way I influence people.
41:47
in a simplistic way, is influence.
41:49
You're speaking with influence.
41:51
So I'm not surprised that you have a big audience, the podcast.
41:55
People follow, you know, clearly for a good guest and for the show itself, but because it's you and what you say, the way how you say things, you know, stays with people.
42:06
And I think it's a good connection to what you were pointing to before, you know, speaking in bullet points.
42:11
You don't speak in bullet points.
42:13
I think that is a great message, I think, for the audience is...
42:16
be more intentional in what context you want to create in a conversation.
42:21
How you want shift the context for people when they listen to you.
42:26
They would inform you how you speak with power, with influence,
42:32
And that is a good starting point.
42:33
By the way, some people, they have it like their talents.
42:36
Fair.
42:36
There are people that are really talented.
42:37
They know how to do it.
42:39
But honestly, Kelly, that is, you can build it.
42:43
That is a capability that people can build.
42:45
Speak with influence because that's what the audience, whatever audience you have in life is looking for.
42:52
Influence.
42:53
Not speaking just because talking cheap.
42:56
Oh, maybe I'm not used to receiving compliments, but thank you.
43:01
I've been working...
43:02
extremely hard day and night therapy, coaching, trying to get better, trying to get, and I am getting better.
43:10
And I'm noticing it in your book.
43:13
You argue quiet leadership is not soft.
43:16
That's what I was building up to is the quiet leadership that you talk about.
43:20
And it is controlled power.
43:24
What does a quiet leader do in a room that everybody else misses?
43:28
Because I'm sure I'm doing it right now and I don't even notice.
43:31
So quite leadership.
43:32
And I mean, a lot of people talk about this.
43:35
In my experience, and I think it's connected to what we just said, you know, that speaking with influence is, and my wife, I actually was talking with my wife about the same thing.
43:46
We both had, and they both passed away.
43:49
Our dads were really speaking softly, gently, when was the right time to do it?
43:57
while our mothers were more vocal, right?
44:00
More present, more shouting sometimes in a good way, in a positive way.
44:06
But, you know, without trying to compare things in person, whenever our dads were talking, they landed better, different, you know, with that level of influence.
44:17
So it's now proved that speaking when it's needed is an art, but it's also more powerful sometimes that keep talking.
44:27
Yeah.
44:29
Why?
44:29
There is a very simple reason, you know, without thinking too much about philosophy.
44:33
It's because when people don't talk a lot because they are listening well, and when they're listening well, they appreciate it better, the nuances, the colors of what they're being used by people.
44:46
Also, the things that haven't been said.
44:49
To me, that is really a skill, Kelly, the ability to read among the lines, to read people and understand what they're not saying.
45:01
Because what they're not saying that lives in the background is really the pivotal moment for us in our listening.
45:08
And honestly, that is difficult.
45:11
So we can talk a lot about listening, how to listen intentionally with generosity.
45:16
But to me, the key, the mastery, the mastery of speaking starts with the mastery of listening what people don't say.
45:26
And if you are able to do that, that's really personal mastery.
45:30
I do this all the time.
45:32
I try at least to do all the time, primarily not only in coaching, but also with the executive team when I'm facilitating session.
45:39
Reading the room is already difficult because you have different individuals, different personalities, eight, ten people.
45:44
It's already difficult facilitating at that level.
45:48
But when you start really listening for what people are not saying,
45:52
and then you poke them, you then trying to bring that to the foreground, that shifts completely the conversation that can be.
46:02
So all good value reason to think why leadership is key, because influences start from your listening.
46:12
I will go into several meetings and say, I'm going to listen, and then I will talk like crazy.
46:20
And what I have to say to myself,
46:23
is I need to go in here to listen, to understand, not be understood.
46:29
And that helps me a lot.
46:31
And slow way down.
46:33
If you hear my cadence, I do that intentionally because I want to let your words land.
46:41
It is a skill.
46:43
That's all I was wanting to say is guys, this is something I am working on as much as I work on lifting weights daily in the gym.
46:50
It is listen, pause.
46:54
A lot of times I'll mirror back what I heard and say, did I get that right?
46:59
And then sometimes I don't even respond.
47:01
I'll say, I'll get back to you on that.
47:04
I used to be a leader that had to have every answer.
47:07
I got a newsletter, I don't have all the answers, but I'm fearless at trying, and I'll fail a million times.
47:13
What did I say?
47:14
Try, fail, learn.
47:17
Repeat.
47:18
Try, fail, learn.
47:19
That framework that you just said is simple.
47:23
It's manageable and people can really become extraordinary speaker and leader just following what you said.
47:30
Was it both or just the listen to understand, not be understood, or then try, fail, learn?
47:37
No, both.
47:38
But I was primarily referring to the first part, you know, the way how you listen.
47:43
Yeah, yeah.
47:44
That's great.
47:45
All right, we're getting up to the end.
47:46
In the book it says, your hardest addiction for a leader is not money or power.
47:52
It is being needed.
47:54
And I identify with this.
47:57
How does someone break that neediness?
48:01
Well, it starts with lowering your ego.
48:03
That's a good starting point.
48:06
It's all about lowering your ego.
48:07
You are not the most important person in the world.
48:10
You're not the hero.
48:11
You are not the hero.
48:12
And let me repeat again, you're not the hero.
48:15
Now, I have seen so many leaders, they perceive themselves as the hero.
48:21
Without them, nothing happens.
48:23
Without them, nothing changes.
48:25
Everybody is a fantastic, fantastic individual.
48:28
Absolutely.
48:29
We are all capable people.
48:32
We're all amazing people if we are given the opportunity and the possibility to demonstrate what we can do.
48:40
If the leader is needed, needy, and he'll always be at the top, at the core of everything, he will speak every single time.
48:49
He will take the action that he wants.
48:51
How can you really inspire people?
48:53
How can you ask people to step up when it is all about you?
48:57
So I need to start with ego.
48:59
Servant leadership.
49:01
Yeah, I love it.
49:02
Yeah.
49:02
If someone is listening, changes one thing in the next 30 days, what should it be?
49:08
So I would start first with some sort of self-assessment.
49:12
So I really start with that.
49:14
I do a lot of beginning of the coaching is, okay, look, read the situation right now and do two things.
49:21
One is, read it is what context I'm dealing with right now.
49:26
and read it like an analyst.
49:29
Read it.
49:29
That is not really working.
49:31
That is working well, keep it.
49:32
So that sort of analysis about what you're dealing with.
49:36
You know, at 360 degree, with no bias, be as much as possible an analyst, okay?
49:43
Second is, okay, look at your own identity, who you are, and be very clear.
49:51
What has helped you so far?
49:54
Because whoever you are, the way you show up is a product of something that worked in the past for you.
50:00
And it worked and allowed you to become who you are right now and you have been successful.
50:05
So that's not to be discussed.
50:08
But whatever it is, that part of you is still serving what you are dealing with or somebody else.
50:16
By the way, I'm not asking to change.
50:18
I'm asking to evolve.
50:19
There is an evolution of yourself, of you, that now is needed and might be a better fit for the context that you just analyzed.
50:28
That is, to me, the most extraordinary things you can do as a starting point.
50:33
All the other things are more tactical.
50:35
Or you can learn more skills.
50:39
But that is the real work.
50:40
And I don't think leaders at the moment, they do enough to have a moment of check-in and see whether they are on track or not with their own identity, not with the results they're taking or they're having.
50:53
Did I just hear you write, say, the awareness of your own identity?
50:56
Yes, it is.
50:59
Why do we lie to ourselves?
51:01
Why do we say this is working when it's not?
51:04
Because we don't want to face the reality of failing.
51:07
So we have, unfortunately, as individuals, we don't always have a good relationship with failing.
51:16
And when we don't have good relationship with failing, we do prefer keeping doing the same thing instead of facing the reality and say, no, that doesn't work.
51:25
I did it twice in my life.
51:27
I stopped and said, that doesn't work.
51:28
I'm failing here.
51:29
I'm failing.
51:31
And that changed completely my trajectory.
51:33
So whoever I am right now is probably my identity number three in the last 15, 20 years.
51:39
And I'm so happy that I'm the identity number three because identity number one and two were not good enough for what I'm doing right now.
51:48
We're not the right identity.
51:49
Yeah.
51:50
but you need to stop and accept in failure.
51:52
I always say failure is feedback.
51:54
And if you're going to fail, fail fast, fail forward.
51:57
Tell me about your relationship with failure and how did you, you said you're on your third identity.
52:03
What did you do on your first failure so the audience can understand it?
52:07
Give us a minute or two about a failure and how you reframed it.
52:13
And knowing you, you probably weaponized it because that's what I would do.
52:18
It's the reason why I have written this book, Kelly.
52:21
That's the reason.
52:22
So it's an observation about the CEOs and my clients and all of that.
52:27
But I started with you.
52:28
And I say in the book at the beginning, in 2010, so I'm not talking about 16 years ago-ish, I was winning everything, Kelly.
52:36
I was winning.
52:37
I had a fantastic career, fast track.
52:39
I was promoted every single year.
52:42
It's like, you know...
52:44
We call it in Italian, you know, the king, everything he touches, it turns to gold, right?
52:52
So that was me.
52:54
That was my own incredible wrong perception about myself.
52:58
Everything I was touching turned into gold.
53:01
Once then, what happened is I started to get my first setback and then the second setback and then the third setback.
53:07
So like this, in a matter of an year, I started to say, nothing works anymore here.
53:13
But for an year, I kept doing the same thing as if, you know, it's them, it's the market, it's the company, it's my boss, it's whatever.
53:23
Then I said, no, no, there's something else going on.
53:25
So I had an identity crisis.
53:27
And what I realized, and that was through thanks to coaching when I was exposed for the first time to coaching, what I realized is...
53:35
I built my fortune, whatever was a fortune in my mind at the time, based on a very specific identity for the last five, six years, has really worked for me.
53:46
But in a context where I was at that time, 2010, that identity was completely wrong or completely unfit for what I was dealing with at that time.
53:58
So I went through a six, nine months, so through introspective, and that changed completely the way I thought about myself.
54:04
I became somebody else.
54:06
I was different in many different ways.
54:09
And that version, I started to like it.
54:11
And then in 2019, there was a second revolution.
54:15
in terms of what I thought about myself.
54:17
But that was more like an upgrade of identity versus a crisis, pure crisis.
54:22
That's so good.
54:22
I wrote here, guys, get out and grab his book, Reinvention at the Top.
54:26
I wrote a note that I said, it's a playbook for CEOs to lead under pressure.
54:30
But I'm going to tell you it's deeper than that.
54:33
It talks about identity, self-awareness,
54:36
what it really means to lead and how to do it.
54:39
And as you just heard, 60 minutes of just straight fire.
54:44
I have enjoyed this immensely.
54:46
How can people get a hold of you and reach you?
54:49
Thank you, Gary.
54:50
First of all, important clarification.
54:52
The book is for CEOs, by essentially it's for all leaders that have a huge responsibility in their life.
54:57
So it's really open to a larger audience.
55:00
So first of all, the book is clearly out in Amazon.
55:03
You can find it in all the places that you want.
55:06
About me, LinkedIn is probably the best place to start because I have
55:10
Quite large follower.
55:10
I write every day.
55:12
People love what I write because I write from experience.
55:16
I write from what I see every single day.
55:18
And people appreciate the fact that I'm quite straightforward with what I say.
55:22
Sometimes I'm provoking a little bit, but I want to make sure people, again, to your point, we're not talking bullet points.
55:30
No.
55:30
Before we start the rapid fire, I want to go back to our first question and I want to reiterate to the audience.
55:35
You asked me, what do you stand for?
55:38
That's what you want people to ask themselves?
55:40
That's the, what do you stand for?
55:42
Was that it?
55:43
That is, is just a part of the introspective work that we do with coaching, but that is the starting point in coaching.
55:49
My homework is I'm going to go away and I'm going to write this a little bit better.
55:53
But when I start speaking about what I stand for, I start getting the butterflies.
55:58
So do it and be fearless because the things I say, they sound woo wooey and they sound utopian, but that's just, I speak from the heart.
56:07
Rapid fire starts now.
56:09
One word to one sentence.
56:11
Loud leader or quiet leader?
56:13
Quiet leader.
56:14
The most overrated word in leadership right now?
56:18
Transformation.
56:20
One question every CEO should ask their board and almost never does.
56:24
Am I doing the right thing here?
56:27
What's it like to be me?
56:29
Confidence or clarity?
56:30
Clarity.
56:31
Clarity.
56:33
Best leader you have ever sat across from, and one word for why?
56:39
Integrity.
56:40
He was one of my previous boss when I was a little bit younger.
56:45
He was the example of integrity.
56:47
He did what he said all the time.
56:50
That is so simple, but yet hard.
56:52
Some days it's hard.
56:53
Something you believed about leadership at 35 that you think is dead wrong now?
56:57
That is all about confidence.
57:01
Projecting confidence.
57:03
I do wish it was.
57:04
Finish this sentence.
57:05
Pressure does not break leaders.
57:07
It reveals.
57:09
Reveals them.
57:10
Andrew Petroni, this has been beautiful.
57:12
I learned so much.
57:13
I hope the audience did.
57:15
And get out, read it or buy his book, follow him on LinkedIn.
57:20
I'm speechless right now.
57:21
I don't know how our producers found you, but I'm grateful they did.
57:25
And this is exactly what I needed.
57:27
When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.
57:30
And you just got all the Heart of Life Nation just got an absolute master class.
57:36
Thank you for spending the hour with me.
57:38
And until next time, everybody be harder than life.
57:40
Please rate and share this podcast.
57:42
I'm active on all social platforms and love to hear from my Segal supporters.
57:46
Each and every episode is sponsored by my company, National Technology Management, the easiest and best IT company to do business with.
57:52
Delivering peace of mind with technology every day, even simplifying cybersecurity.
57:57
Visit TrustNTM.com for more info.
58:00
Until next week, be harder than life.