Latest / A Lifetime to Learn / Calm Excellence with Lisa Brown: A New Way for Women to Think About Money, Perfectionism and Financial Confidence
Transcript
- Lisa Brown [00:00:00]: We're illuminating the financial picture for every part of the family. And so it's not just one person who has an understanding. It's typically both spouses, or maybe even children as they get older. Leslie Zanoff [00:00:15]: This is a space where presence meets purpose — where we explore the moments that shape us, from entrepreneurs and change makers to women in leadership. It's about learning out loud, together, with honesty and humor, where luminaries with real stories remind us how to live by our own rules. Because progress doesn't come from having all the answers. It comes from staying open. And we've got a lifetime to learn. I'm your host, Leslie Zanoff. Let's get started. There are guests you invite onto your show because of what they know. Leslie Zanoff [00:00:50]: And then there are the ones you invite because you know their heart and you can't wait for everyone else to know it, too. Lisa Brown is one of those people for me. She is the President of Greenwood Gearhart, a wealth management firm in Northwest Arkansas, and she brings over 24 years of experience helping clients and teams navigate some of the most important financial decisions of their lives. She leads with clarity, integrity, and a belief that I find so refreshing — she believes that stillness is a strategic advantage. And here's what you won't find on her LinkedIn: she's a devoted wife to husband Blake and a mom to three boys who she calls her greatest and most meaningful work. She loves to learn, to travel, and she is a true Enneagram One. She's also become one of my dear friends, and I think that's what's going to make this conversation so great. You might want to listen to it twice. So, Lisa, welcome to A Lifetime to Learn. Lisa Brown [00:01:45]: Thank you for having me. I've been so excited about today. I'm so excited about the work you're doing and the conversations we've had over the months and years. I can't wait to dig in together. Leslie Zanoff [00:01:57]: Me too. And I know just from knowing you, Lisa, that you're good at investing in yourself and other women. You not only have a high IQ, but I know you have a high EQ too, and that you bring that to your work at Greenwood Gearhart with calm excellence — which we'll talk about today. But first, the topic of women and money is so personal and nuanced that I've really been looking forward to your insight. You lead a wealth management firm in an industry that's historically been built by men, for men. So what does it feel like to be a woman in that seat? And what does it mean for your female clients that you serve? Lisa Brown [00:02:43]: That's a really important question, and it's a really big one. Taking 24 years of experience and trying to condense it — while also thinking ahead — is part of what I'd love to talk about with you today. I might start with three points. I'm not a stats person, but as I was thinking about our conversation, I think these things matter. The first one: if you think about it in perspective, women were not allowed to have a credit card in their own name until the 1970s. Leslie Zanoff [00:03:23]: This is so shocking. Lisa Brown [00:03:24]: So when you think about it — we're existing in a financial system that was built by men, and women are just starting to gain traction in it. It hasn't really been that long since the 1970s. The second fact: nine out of ten women will at some point in their life be the head of the financial household. A lot of that is due to the fact that women typically live longer than men. It's a longevity thing. It's a major life event thing. I encounter it typically when a woman becomes a widow or when there's divorce in the story. Those are big moments — there's often a sudden shift in responsibility. So that's a big part of the conversation around women in this business — and I'm thinking about it from the lens of a professional woman, but also the women we serve. The third point is a big conversation happening right now around the great wealth transfer. The statistics vary, so I'm not going to quote anything specifically, but over the next five to twenty years, a very significant amount of private wealth is going to transfer into the hands of women. And what that's going to do, I think, is propel our industry to think differently about how we show up. If I think about the history and the pressures I felt when I started my career 24 years ago, I felt like I needed to show up in my suit, talk about all the technicalities, and be a salesperson — that traditional broker mentality. But what I discovered is that people really want relationship. They want to be heard. They want peace around finances. And what we've experienced historically is that there's been a lot of mystery, complexity, and fear. Sitting in the seat I'm in today, I feel very excited. We've come so far, and we have so far to go — but there are a lot of catalysts that are going to create momentum for the conversation around women as leaders in finance, and as clients in our world. Leslie Zanoff [00:05:58]: I love that. That goes in so many directions we could explore. And I've seen it personally — women becoming widows or going through divorce and suddenly finding themselves in charge of all the finances when they may never have been before. Lisa Brown [00:06:27]: Yes. Someone put it this way in a conversation I was in recently: it's like you're flying on a plane and something happens to the pilot, and all of a sudden you have to figure out how to land it when you've never been taught. So a big part of the work we have to do is demystifying the world of finance and personal money management — and empowering every member of the household. Not just women. It's children. It's the spouse who may not have been in the conversation before. It's multifaceted. Leslie Zanoff [00:07:05]: Do you have any thoughts, just off the cuff, on how women could start getting more involved — managing things in a way that maybe softens the shock when they have to take over? Lisa Brown [00:07:24]: The ideal scenario is that you get a head start before a major life event happens — which is what I really advocate for in our daily work. To me, it looks like a lot of things that seem simple. We try to invite every member of the household, where appropriate, to the conversations we're having about money. I don't know if you grew up this way, but my dad controlled the finances and my mom managed the household — and that's just how it was. The way we structure conversations with clients now is different. The first meeting is about inviting everyone to the table. There's a lot of magic that happens when both genders are represented. We ask a lot of questions in that first meeting. It's all about being heard — not just asking the historical leader of the finances, but also the other spouse who may be managing so many other things for the family. Then in the second conversation, we put one page in front of virtually every client, summarizing what we heard in the first meeting. We bring all the voices together and say: is this what you want to accomplish? Have we really heard you? It's a really good opportunity to confirm that — and then we do the technical part and build the strategies and make the recommendations. We typically have a lot of numbers involved in our work. But the important part is that we're illuminating the financial picture for every part of the family, so it's not just one person who has an understanding. It's typically both spouses, or even children as they get older. What that does is bring, hopefully, peace and clarity — because they understand the total picture. They're not in the dark. We have a lot of clients say, "If something happens to me, I know they can call you" — and the other spouse typically has a good enough understanding that it doesn't feel as scary. So I think a big part of it is just opening the conversation and creating transparency and illumination around someone's financial picture. Leslie Zanoff [00:10:12]: That's huge. If more businesses operated that way — just that one practice of "here's what I heard you say, is that right?" — I think, wow. Especially when it comes to finances. Lisa Brown [00:10:34]: And our industry has done a really great job of making things complex and fearful. Some of it's intentional, some of it's unintentional. But a lot of times it doesn't serve clients when all they're trying to do is meet the goals that are important to them and do it in an effective way. Leslie Zanoff [00:10:58]: You touched on this a little bit already, and I know it from conversations over the years — I know so many accomplished women who are carrying beliefs they've learned or inherited when it comes to their own money. Brilliant, successful women who are handing off their finances or avoiding them entirely. Why do you think that happens? Lisa Brown [00:11:23]: I think it's conditioning and inherited behavior. I think about what we observed our parents do. Traditionally, men have run the finances and women have managed everything else. The other thing that comes to mind is the mental load — what women carry every single day. If your spouse is really good at finances and that's one thing you don't have to carry, it feels like a relief. It's probably been a function of survival — divide and conquer. And I'm not going to take on the thing that's complex and takes a lot of time and energy, especially when you're already operating at capacity. Leslie Zanoff [00:12:17]: Exactly. When you're already managing the household and everything else — especially with kids involved — yes. Something you touched on briefly: when life throws us curveballs — divorce, losing a spouse, selling a business, an unexpected inheritance — what's the first thing a woman should do when she has to get financially fluent? Lisa Brown [00:12:49]: The most important thing a woman can do is pause. In my experience, if someone tries to make a decision — especially when it's centered around death, divorce, or a really traumatic life event — they can make choices that are very hard to undo. Even selling a business is a huge life event. When you have a windfall, it's overwhelming. Of course, I would recommend finding an advisor you really, truly trust, or surrounding yourself with family members who have the acumen to be part of your team going forward. Significant life changes can create so many decisions beyond finances. You just don't want to do something irreversible. So: take a pause. Find a trusted advisor. And then allow time for decisions to be made. Some decisions are short-term — but a lot of times with clients navigating divorce or death, we ask: what do you need to do in the next six weeks to be okay? And then, what do you need to do in the next six months? When we do retirement planning, we're planning to age 95 — but that's not what you need to be thinking about in the middle of a major life event. It's about doing the next right thing until you're able to make longer-term decisions. So be very cautious, and relieve yourself of the pressure that you have to figure it all out. Leslie Zanoff [00:14:30]: I love that — pause. Think in terms of six weeks and six months, not 25 years. Thank you. Okay, so you mentioned finding a financial advisor. What questions should we be asking? Are there red flags we should be aware of? Lisa Brown [00:14:52]: This is so important. And again, our industry has not always done the best job of creating clarity for consumers. The first and most important thing, in my opinion, is to seek out a fiduciary. The fiduciary standard means that we as professional advisors are always required to put our clients' best interests before our own. Leslie Zanoff [00:15:20]: Can you expand on that a little for people who may not know? Lisa Brown [00:15:25]: You would think that would be the standard across the board — but there's also what's called a suitability standard. Both exist in our industry, and both are okay. But the fiduciary standard puts you in the best position to truly be partners. Under the suitability standard, an advisor can put two solutions or products in front of you, and if one pays them more but is still suitable for the client, they can recommend it. To us, that presents an area of conflict. Again, it's not wrong — you can still have great outcomes. But it's something you'd want to know. The second thing is to ask your advisor how they're compensated. In our world, there's commission-based and fee-based. We operate as a fee-based firm because it fully aligns us with our clients. We charge a percentage of the assets we're actively managing, and the only way that percentage grows is if we're also growing the value of the client's assets. We're fully aligned. Beyond that, find someone you can genuinely build a relationship with. Dealing with someone's money is often more intimate than your relationship with your physician. You need trust, partnership, and rapport. As for red flags — if something feels off, if you don't feel clarity, if you don't have an understanding, if it feels too complex, dig deeper and ask more questions. Our world is complex, but our job is to simplify it and be transparent enough that there's never a question of motive. Leslie Zanoff [00:17:51]: I would never have thought to ask how someone is compensated. I'd wonder — is that allowed? Can you ask that? Lisa Brown [00:18:08]: You absolutely should ask. In our industry, we're required to disclose all of that. But the disclosures are one to five to seven pages long. So it's important to ask transparently — and a good advisor should be willing to answer clearly and succinctly. Leslie Zanoff [00:18:30]: To you, what does it mean to be a good leader? You're in a significant position at your company — what does leadership mean for you? Lisa Brown [00:18:39]: Oh, gosh. I've had so many stumbles as a leader. Leslie Zanoff [00:18:45]: That's how we learn. Lisa Brown [00:18:46]: That's exactly right. That's the name of your podcast — A Lifetime to Learn. I always say the moment I feel like I'm a great leader is probably the moment I'm not, because I'm constantly learning. I'm in a season right now — in real time — where I'm being challenged. And even when you feel like you've dialed in the culture you've built, invested in your team, and created solid structure, there are moments of drift and moments of real challenge. The way I always want to show up is listening, asking questions, discerning carefully, and being cautious in how I respond. We're serving each team member individually, but we're also serving the whole organization — and that's a really hard balance to strike. I want every single person who sits across the table from me to feel heard and seen. And we really believe that if we stay attuned to our culture and invest in the professional growth and fulfillment of our team, it directly impacts our business and what our clients feel every day. There are so many reasons why it matters beyond just being human — but I love digging in with people and hopefully creating change that looks different from what I experienced early in my career. I read Brené Brown constantly. Her book Dare to Lead has been wonderful. She talks a lot about armored leadership versus striving to be unarmored. All of our natural tendencies are to armor up and march in with gusto — and I just feel like taking that armor off and meeting people where they are is the most effective way to show up. Leslie Zanoff [00:21:18]: Don't you think being a woman in that position also helps — in terms of seeing people, drawing them out, helping couples and individuals feel comfortable? Lisa Brown [00:21:32]: I do think it's a gift. And I'll give credit to Brock, too. Brock Gerhardt, my partner — we co-lead, and we have very different and complementary strengths. I feel so fortunate that we have each other to lean on when we're working through challenges or celebrating wins, because we see things through a very different lens. But we can typically come together and find a really good solution. And he's given me so much freedom to lead and build culture in the ways I've felt passionate about. I see that as a true luxury — especially being a woman in a typically male-dominated industry. I want to make it look different from what I experienced. Especially for moms and people who have families. It all just matters so much. I'm really grateful I've had the freedom to experiment and hopefully build something better. Leslie Zanoff [00:22:44]: Yes. Let's talk about legacy, because so many women I speak with are starting to think about what they leave behind — how they give, how they take care of the people they love. How does that conversation change when a woman is in the driver's seat of her own finances? Lisa Brown [00:23:04]: My immediate thought goes back to the great wealth transfer conversation. And some of this is generality — I don't want to alienate anyone — but women tend to come to the table very values-focused. There is more philanthropy in the conversation. It's a very different conversation than "how is my investment performing and what are the percentage returns every year?" And it's wonderful. As wealth transfers over the next several years, I think we're going to see more values-based financial strategy. I also think a lot about the family dynamics work we're starting to do — creating a mission statement for your family, communicating distinct values, educating the next generation, and setting them up to educate the generation after that. Those are all very important conversations. And historically, there's been a lack of transparency around money — I know my family operated that way. Leslie Zanoff [00:24:26]: You did not talk about money. That was the rule. Lisa Brown [00:24:28]: That is shifting. And I think women are driving a lot of that. It's getting memorialized in a different way, and I hope it's going to empower multiple generations. Leslie Zanoff [00:24:43]: That brings up a great point about parenting. You're raising three boys — what are you teaching your kids about money? Lisa Brown [00:24:57]: Mr. Beast is very popular in our household. They think they get $10,000 for everything. Not true. So a lot of it is teaching the value of a dollar. I've been using the Greenlight app with them for several years and I love it. They have their own debit cards and their own accounts. There's an age-appropriate set of chores every week, and I can check off in the app whether they've completed them. If they do, they get paid the following week — just like a paycheck. And then they can designate what goes to spending, saving, investing, or giving, and they can see their balances. So when we're at Target and they want a toy, I ask: do you want it badly enough to use your Greenlight balance? That's really impactful versus just saying "throw it in the cart." Do I do that too? Absolutely. But I'm really trying to teach them to feel the real impact of dollars in and out. All three of them respond very differently — they have different money habits, which is interesting. Beyond that, we've started long-term savings accounts for them, whether for college or hopefully a down payment on a house someday. And I've started teaching them, at age-appropriate levels, what investing looks like — what it means to have a return, to hold a stock. We'll often connect it to things they recognize, like Walmart or Disney. Giving them budgets for certain activities. I'm not perfect at it, but I try to instill little nuggets of knowledge here and there to set them up for success. Leslie Zanoff [00:27:02]: These are great ideas. And today there really are a lot of good apps families can use. Giving kids some control — age-appropriate, of course — and letting them feel that tension: is this really worth $10? Lisa Brown [00:27:29]: Exactly. It feels different when they have to bear the responsibility. Leslie Zanoff [00:27:33]: As we're talking about giving kids money and allowance — is there something you don't regret spending money on, even if it felt like a stretch? A non-negotiable for self-investment? Lisa Brown [00:27:48]: I don't regret spending money on experiences with my family. We love to travel, and we've built so many great memories on trips together. I've also had to learn a hard lesson about being willing to invest in myself — whether that's nutrition, healthcare, fitness, books I enjoy. That matters. From a financial advisor lens, we practice what we call reverse budgeting — we set goals for our clients around how much they need to save every year. Once that's done and I've hopefully exceeded it, I know I have the freedom to enjoy what I have. We always say, don't trade today for tomorrow — meaning, you have to enjoy the money you work hard for while responsibly planning for the future. There's a balance. I've watched a lot of clients work so hard to stack it up and sock it away, and that's not always joyful when you don't feel permission to actually use your resources and have fun with them. Leslie Zanoff [00:29:14]: You still have to enjoy it. In a responsible way — but yes. I've seen that in my own family, where someone passes away and you think, you could have enjoyed this. Lisa Brown [00:29:25]: You can't take it with you. Leslie Zanoff [00:29:29]: Is there a money story you grew up with that still influences you today? Lisa Brown [00:29:42]: My parents had very different money behaviors, which was interesting to observe even as a kid. My dad was more of a spender, and my mom physically saved half of every paycheck. So that was a fun contrast to watch. But the thing that sticks with me most is generosity. I grew up with a very generous family. I benefited from it, but I also got to witness how they used money to help others — and that stuck with me the most. It's something I've carried with me. Leslie Zanoff [00:30:19]: That's important. That is so important. I love that. Those conversations — what are your values, what matters to you — those are the ones we're having in our house, too. Lisa Brown [00:30:38]: And it goes back to responsible planning, but also recognizing that your resources are something you can be generous with. You don't have to hold on to everything. Leslie Zanoff [00:30:51]: When you reflect back on your life, what are you most proud of? Lisa Brown [00:31:00]: My boys. Any mom could gush about her kids for days. They're 13, 11, and 9 right now, and I'm watching them become these magical little people with their own opinions and their own passions. I see their kindness and their generosity — and yes, they're also boys, so a little wild. But motherhood is my greatest accomplishment and what I'm most proud of. I'm also proud — and I say this humbly — of my resilience and my willingness to keep learning and growing. I've had a lot of hard things in my life. But in hindsight, it's always been worth it to learn from what you're experiencing, learn from your challenges, and become a better version of yourself. Leslie Zanoff [00:31:54]: I love that. And we should all take account of our resilience and name it. That matters. Lisa Brown [00:32:10]: It's hard to say without feeling like I'm bragging — but I think in hindsight, that is something to be proud of when you can overcome. It really is. Leslie Zanoff [00:32:18]: That's life. It happens on a Tuesday. Just to be able to say — I've been through it, and I can handle it. Leslie Zanoff [00:32:33]: Okay. I want to talk about the work you're doing at Greenwood Gearhart — specifically the culture you've created with calm excellence. As a mindfulness teacher, this resonates so deeply with me. I'd love for you to share what it is and how it works within the business. Lisa Brown [00:32:51]: It's my favorite topic, so let me rewind just a little, because I think it all ties together. I think about your first Instagram handle — Perfection Is a Unicorn. I love it. I noticed that right around the same time I was starting to understand my own journey with perfectionism. It was about eight years ago that I read Brené Brown's The Gifts of Imperfection. In my head, I knew I was a perfectionist, but I always thought it was a really good thing — I didn't understand the pitfalls of it. I actually heard something recently: excellence is about growth, perfectionism is about protection. And I really started to understand that I had been living an armored, protected life — a lot of it as survival, especially in my career as a young woman in a demanding industry. I started working through that personally and trying to understand the pros and cons of perfectionism. By the way, there are a lot of pros too. Fast forward to a couple of years ago. We're a fast-growing organization, and we're very innovative — which means change is part of who we are, and that's not easy for everyone to embrace. Virtually every person on our team is a high performer. A lot of us are true Enneagram Ones. Leslie Zanoff [00:34:34]: I can imagine. Lisa Brown [00:34:35]: And in our industry, that tends to be more often the case than not, which is interesting. But what I started noticing — and this is the opposite of calm excellence — is what I started calling urgent perfectionism. The symptoms were things like working until 2 a.m., morale dipping under the pressure. If a 50-page document got lots of accolades last time, then this time it should probably be 70 pages because that's going to be even better. There were so many symptoms creeping up, to the point where we thought we might lose a couple of team members. So I used the phrase urgent perfectionism to define what I was observing. And then I developed calm excellence as the antidote. What calm excellence means is showing up with genuine excellence — boundaried, focused on growth, not operating out of self-protection or insecurity. I created a little illustration I called the band of excellence. At the top was urgent perfectionism — a place we didn't want to be. At the bottom were the negatives we see in our industry: advisors who don't respond, take weeks to return a phone call, don't follow up. We don't want that either. We have very high standards. What we want is for people to fall within that band of excellence — and to be aware when they're drifting toward perfectionism, which can be toxic, destructive, and unhealthy. The fruit of it: we have people say they feel more like partners to their clients now, rather than service providers hustling for approval. I've had team members say, "I'm going to exercise calm excellence right now" — and call us back from going off the rails in a conversation. It's become a reference point. It's simple, but it's been really helpful. And I'll be honest — it's not a one-and-done solution. We're dealing with it in real time right now. We as leaders have to constantly recognize when we're glorifying the behaviors that feed into perfectionism and pivot back. But at least it's a tool. Leslie Zanoff [00:38:12]: And the best example I've heard you give to break it down: someone saying, "I can get you the information you need within 24 hours, but if you give me three days, I can give you my best work." Lisa Brown [00:38:28]: Yes. Thank you for saying that. Leslie Zanoff [00:38:30]: People appreciate that. And I've started doing it myself — acknowledging someone's email without immediately responding to it, and allowing myself the time to respond well instead of stressing over a rushed reply that isn't my best work. Calm excellence is really about allowing people to do their best work. Lisa Brown [00:39:03]: Hopefully that's honored — and we have seen that. It's a work in progress, for sure. Leslie Zanoff [00:39:09]: Is there a piece of financial advice that gets repeated all the time that you actually disagree with? Lisa Brown [00:39:27]: Probably two things. The first is the notion that debt is bad. Debt can actually be really good — there are healthy versions of debt. A mortgage, for example, is good debt if it's a responsible amount. There are tax benefits. A lot of people use debt or leverage to build a business. The notion that you have to operate on cash only can work for some people — especially when you're starting out — but it's not always the most productive financial choice. The second is the notion that a financial solution has to be complex to be good. There are a lot of simple solutions that serve people really well and net great results. Things can easily become overcomplicated, which creates anxiety and confusion — and that's just not a productive way to build a financial picture. Those are my two. Leslie Zanoff [00:40:53]: And what was serving you in your 20s isn't necessarily what's going to serve you forever. Lisa Brown [00:40:59]: Exactly. There are healthy versions across the whole spectrum. Leslie Zanoff [00:41:05]: Are there books or podcasts you're loving right now? Lisa Brown [00:41:21]: Brené Brown — I feel like I say her name too much, but she's amazing. She and Adam Grant have a new podcast called The Curiosity Shop, which has been really fun. I've listened to Dare to Lead and Unlocking Us, and I love all of her content. On the way to record today I listened to Amy Poehler's Good Hang — I think she's wonderful. We all need levity in our lives. And Smartless is another favorite. I love to read. I'm constantly reading whatever I can get my hands on. Emily P. Freeman — The Next Right Thing is wonderful. Sue Monk Kidd is an author I love. When you talk about soul work, she's the one I think of. I love reading books written by women. I've also been reading books by men lately — maybe because I'm raising sons. There's a book called Notes on Being a Man that's very interesting. And Ian Morgan Cron is another one. He's an Enneagram specialist and he's also written novels like Chasing Francis that are really good. I could go through my whole library. Leslie Zanoff [00:43:00]: I know the feeling. When friends ask for a beach read, I'm never much help. Lisa Brown [00:43:15]: Blake frequently asks for less heavy topics. Please. Leslie Zanoff [00:43:20]: Okay. As this podcast is called A Lifetime to Learn — are there lessons you're still learning that you want to share? Lisa Brown [00:43:31]: The first thing that comes to mind — and it ties right back into perfectionism and armored living — is this: I don't have to be anyone other than myself to be valuable. That is a hard, hard lesson to learn, and I will be learning it until the day I die. But it's so important. I've found that I have so much greater connection with others when I show up that way. It's a very active exercise that I go through daily. Leslie Zanoff [00:44:08]: Thank you so much for sharing that. I see myself in it completely. And I know you and I have had so many nuanced conversations about learning for a lifetime — all of our lessons. I appreciate you being here today, Lisa. It means so much. Lisa Brown [00:44:24]: It's been so fun. Thank you for the work you're doing. I'm so excited for this to be part of our world and for the people who get to listen to you. Leslie Zanoff [00:44:32]: Oh, thank you. Thanks for being here on A Lifetime to Learn. If today's episode inspired you or sparked a new thought, please share it with someone who might need it too. And if you haven't yet, be sure to subscribe so you get notified when we launch new episodes. I've got conversations with extraordinary people lined up, and I can't wait for you to listen. For more information on how to work with me, visit lesliezanoff.com — it's where I share resources to help you lead with presence and live with intention. Because remember, we're not here to have it all figured out. We're here to keep showing up with open hearts and open minds. Leslie Zanoff [00:45:13]: Because we've got a lifetime to learn. Until next time, friends. Be well.