Latest / Women Disrupting Tech / How Women In VC NL Close the Gender Funding Gap with Erica van Eeghen & Maud Vermeulen | Ep. 119

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How Women In VC NL Close the Gender Funding Gap with Erica van Eeghen & Maud Vermeulen | Ep. 119 · Women Disrupting Tech

0:10
Welcome to Women Disrupting Tech.
0:13
My name is dear Kanupkas, and on this podcast, I give the women
0:16
who work in tech the platform they need to inspire and empower
0:20
each other. Join me on a journey into the
0:23
world of entrepreneurship, funding biases, and role models
0:28
to discover the strategies for success in the tech industry.
0:32
In other words, how women can disrupt tech.
0:36
Are you ready to listen? Hey, welcome back to Women
0:45
Disrupting Tech, and thank you for tuning in to episode 119.
0:51
As you know, only 2% of venture capital goes to all female
0:55
founding teams. That's one of the most
0:58
persistent inequalities in tech, and it's a number that has
1:02
barely changed in the past decades.
1:05
My guests today are Ian Cavan Eichen from VP Capital and Mount
1:09
from Merlin from Golden Egg Check.
1:11
Together they lead women in VCNLA community of more than 170
1:17
women changing who gets funded. We talk about how they break
1:22
open the closed networks that shut women out, challenge the
1:26
stereotypes around risk that hold female founders back, and
1:30
build the education infrastructure that women in VC
1:34
need to advance. By the end of this episode,
1:37
you'll understand why closing the funding gap is not just
1:40
about fairness. It's about creating smarter
1:43
systems and better opportunities for everyone.
1:47
So when you're ready to discover how women in VCNL close the
1:51
funding gap, please welcome to women disrupting tech, Erica von
1:55
Ehren and mount for Merlin. Erica von Ehren, mount for
2:00
Merlin. Welcome to women disrupting
2:02
tech. It's an honor to have you.
2:05
Question I always ask at the start is how you got into your
2:09
current job and current positions.
2:11
And Erica, let's start with you. Yes.
2:15
So I've actually always believed that capital is one of the most
2:19
powerful levers for driving positive change and development.
2:24
And my my first real awareness on how equal access, unequal
2:29
access to finances between men and women was actually when I
2:33
was working for FMO in the Middle East and Northern Africa.
2:38
But what actually struck me even more was realizing that this
2:42
imbalance isn't limited to emerging markets.
2:45
It's just as present here in Europe and especially within the
2:49
venture capital industry. And that realization led me to
2:53
join Borsky Fund, which is a fund that is investing in tech
2:57
companies or female founders. And I saw what I saw was just a
3:03
direct way to address the funding gap and to really help
3:06
diversify the kinds of innovations that receive that
3:09
backing. And today, I, I continue that
3:12
journey at VP Capital, which is a family office to well
3:17
dedicated to sustainable and inclusive impacts.
3:21
And because the shifts in capital flows go hand in hand
3:25
with reshaping who sits at the investor table, I pursue that
3:30
that mission through the women in VC in in the Netherlands as
3:33
well. So we really work to build a
3:36
more balanced and representative investor community that drives
3:42
broader and more meaningful change.
3:45
Yeah. So that that's actually what
3:47
brought me to VP, but women in VC in particular.
3:50
OK. Thank you and I'm out.
3:52
How about you? Yeah.
3:54
So my first experience with the entrepreneurial ecosystem, to
4:00
say it like that started during my bachelor and I did an
4:04
internship at it's best Inc and I joined their pressure cooker
4:07
program with a startup. And that's where I found that
4:11
working with startups is something that I really enjoy
4:14
and also energize me a lot. So working with founders that
4:18
have like passions and they really want to change something
4:22
in the world and they're working on, on the big societal
4:25
problems. So that's something that I, that
4:29
I, yeah, really inspires me as well and motivates me to work
4:33
together with them and how I got into my current position.
4:36
So today I'm working for Golden Egg Check as investment
4:40
associate. And I got in contact with
4:43
Thomas, well, a few years ago when I was writing my thesis on
4:48
the team factors that VC funds look at.
4:51
And we kept in touch actually. And yeah, since the 1st of May,
4:55
I joined, I joined the Golden Egg Check.
4:58
Yeah, wow. Congratulations on that.
5:01
Sounds like a really cool place to work VP Capital.
5:05
So by the way, but Thomas has been on my radar ever since I
5:12
started this journey myself. So he's quite also quite focal,
5:17
I think about having a more balanced ecosystem.
5:22
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah.
5:24
And about the funding gap, I joined women in FEC 1 1/2 year
5:29
ago. So I went to, besides my job
5:32
that, well, back then, I was working for the regional
5:35
development agency in IT. And yeah, I wanted to do more on
5:40
my network. And I saw it was actually the
5:43
first time that I saw that the capital is so like weirdly
5:47
divided or distributed across the ecosystem.
5:51
And I read the news and all the the data and statistics on see
5:56
more entrepreneurship. And then yeah, I wanted to do
6:01
something about that as well and also help women in their PC
6:07
careers. And I just started my own PC
6:09
career. So also help young women in in
6:13
their career. Yeah, to get to know each other.
6:16
And yeah, that's when when I asked if I could join the board
6:20
of women in PC. And I'm very happy that I did it
6:22
because I get a lot of energy from this and from networking
6:26
with women in the sector and also with with women founders.
6:31
OK, so just to double click on that, why does it give you
6:36
energy except for the the connection part, which I
6:40
understand. What what What makes for you
6:44
that it's like makes it alive? Yeah, I think it's also part of
6:51
the problem that we're going to talk about.
6:53
But I think it's just like women like the, this, the sector is a
6:59
male dominated sector. And originally there were many
7:03
men working in, in the sector And you see that that women had
7:08
a hard time or like it, it was probably less attractive to
7:12
women this sector. And as a young woman in in
7:16
venture capital, I find it important that opportunities are
7:20
equal. And also for me.
7:22
So while I'm like building my own career in this sector and,
7:28
and well, hoping that I'm seen as equal as well and also trying
7:34
my best for it, I also want other people to know that they
7:38
are equal, that they deserve to to be taken seriously.
7:43
And yeah, that's something that also personally touches me.
7:46
And I've seen many young women that have a heart.
7:49
I mean, boardrooms, for example, they're not taken seriously or
7:53
they're yeah, people just interrupt them.
7:58
So I feel like, yeah, we should stand out and do something about
8:04
that and and show so that everyone has a place, can have a
8:07
place at the table, regardless of their age or their gender.
8:12
Yeah. So Erica, what is your
8:14
experience with that? Yeah, I, I totally conquer with
8:19
that. And I think it's, it's for me,
8:20
what really drives me as well is to see that you actually as a
8:25
woman, you kind of face similar challenges in this sector in
8:31
particular. And that just well, just
8:33
bringing all these women together and, and well, just
8:39
making well have open conversations about the
8:44
challenges that we face really helps in just well become
8:50
stronger, but but really help out in in just kind of
8:55
progressing in your career, but also in indeed your interactions
9:00
with other Co investors or boards members.
9:06
So it, it's really, I see such a strength of just having that
9:12
network and, and really strengthening or feeding that by
9:16
well organising events or other types of education or trainings.
9:22
So maybe good to get a bit of a feel of the landscape here.
9:28
Is is there like like there are in, in terms of female founders,
9:32
I think it's about 60, forty, 40% women, 60% men, if I'm not
9:41
mistaken in the Netherlands. How is that on the on the
9:44
investor side and especially with women in positions where
9:48
they actually can. Yeah, how to say pull the
9:52
trigger? Yeah.
9:54
So that's still really low. Actually.
9:57
We've seen that over the last years.
9:59
There are more women and younger women as well entering the VC
10:05
job market, so to say. But currently actually there was
10:10
a research done by the MVP and level 20 and they researched
10:15
that in 2025, said this year there's 18% of the professionals
10:22
in VC is women, so 118. And in 2023 that was 15%.
10:30
So it increased a little bit, which is good to see.
10:34
But we've seen that that mostly increased on the junior and
10:37
meteor levels and in senior positions, there's still only 9%
10:42
women working in in senior level positions.
10:46
So one in eleven decision makers in VC is a woman?
10:52
How did that happen? Is that, is that something that
10:56
just happened because it was initially a male, totally male
11:00
invented markets I would even say or is that because women?
11:05
Yeah. Yeah, I think VC really thrives
11:08
on informal networks and local networks.
11:11
So you have to basically, yeah, share the deal with each other
11:18
just because of like willingness and connections.
11:22
So there's any yeah, information that's actually kept between
11:26
these informal networks and because there were less women in
11:31
these sectors. Yeah, originally.
11:34
I think it's, it's more difficult or it can be more
11:37
difficult for them to yeah, to have access to all this
11:41
knowledge or networks or deal flow or so that was originally,
11:45
right. Luckily, we see now that yeah,
11:49
women are breaking into CC and it's very, very good for the
11:52
sector, not only for the funds, but also for investing in female
11:58
founders because the the lack of of women is in decision making
12:04
positions in this sector also has a very big impact on on how
12:10
much capital is distributed to women founders.
12:13
So we do see a change. But I think that that, yeah, the
12:16
the reason for this is the informal networks or one of the
12:21
Yeah. Erica, you want to add?
12:23
Yeah, I would like to add to that as well.
12:24
And and actually echo also what Mao T is saying.
12:28
But I, I think 1 is indeed maybe on the why on the investor side,
12:34
it's so male dominated. I, I think it's indeed, it is
12:37
something that is already, well, they're from, well, a long time
12:43
ago. It's already something that kind
12:46
of grew because the financial sector in itself is male
12:51
dominated. But it's also, I think if you
12:55
look at the funds that have been built, they indeed have been
12:59
built by men. And it's to, in order to kind of
13:04
create a culture among funds where you embrace more
13:09
diversity, not only women, but also other types of diversity,
13:13
you need certain mass and a certain changing culture in
13:17
order to kind of, well, be more inclusive in that.
13:22
And I think that's often still lacking.
13:24
What so you feel when I talk with other female investors, I
13:29
often hear that either funds are still just doing it in a very
13:34
kind of classical way, but also in terms of personal development
13:40
and and creating that culture. And I think there it is
13:45
something that certainly has to change and I think will change,
13:50
but it needs to come from both sides.
13:53
So the fund management as well as women becoming kind of more
13:57
well equipped and confident that they actually have that position
14:03
in the fund as well and never well and and very good say in
14:08
and good input in decision making as well.
14:12
So is it, is it, do I hear you say that in part, let's say the
14:17
the classical setup of the of the whole ecosystem, but also a
14:23
matter of women needing to be more confident about themselves.
14:31
I think it's indeed on both sides.
14:33
So, well, I think indeed women also need to kind of, well, kind
14:38
of or get more equipment or tools in order to thrive in CC.
14:46
But I think there also needs to be more openness for other types
14:51
and other ways of investing because I think I really would
14:56
never say that women just need to change in order to kind of
15:02
fit in the the C industry. I think the authenticity and the
15:08
actually the way they do it, not to generalise too much, but it
15:13
is brings actually a lot of diversity in decision making,
15:17
but also, as Mao said, in the types of investments that you
15:21
make. And I think that's link to
15:24
indeed the types of companies that are are being invested or
15:29
backed by VC. We were were really kind of
15:33
quite monotone in, in what type of companies we invest in.
15:39
Well, if you have more a more diverse VC team, you also see
15:44
that there are a lot of other types of opportunities in the
15:47
market that actually do deserve investments as well and really
15:52
make and return as well. So hence it is important to have
15:58
that diversity in the teams of VC funds.
16:02
Yeah, also to open up more, more opportunities in terms of of
16:08
widening the scope of of what is considered investable.
16:13
Exactly. But what I also heard you say,
16:17
I, I just want to touch back on that, is that it's also a matter
16:21
of, let's say, mass, the sheer number of women in VC.
16:26
So Mao, you indicated that currently there there, the book
16:30
of the women is in junior or media positions.
16:35
Do you know of that? There's a sort of structured
16:41
education plan of sorts to bring those up to the to the more
16:47
senior levels. Well, I haven't, I haven't heard
16:51
of that in infants for example. So I think that's partly what we
16:56
are doing with women in CC. We're trying to structure
17:01
education and network and we can tell you more about that later.
17:05
But so, so because there isn't, we are trying to to do it.
17:11
And I think sponsors, so, so people that support you and also
17:16
want you to grow into partner positions, for example, are very
17:20
important. So a sponsor is someone like
17:22
it's a role in a company. It's someone that helps you
17:25
actually grow into senior positions.
17:28
I think that's super, super important.
17:29
Because if that's not the case, like yeah, it's going to be very
17:33
difficult to to join a distance decision making position, right.
17:39
So I think also the board of if you see funds really need to
17:43
yeah, try and diversify their look or their the way that
17:48
they're currently doing things. And I think that the quickest.
17:53
What? What is standing in the way?
17:54
What? What is standing in the way of
17:56
that? Yeah.
17:58
Why? I mean, this is, this is a bit
18:01
just to go on a tangent here, this is a bit my frustration
18:05
with the whole topic is that we have known since well at least
18:11
2015, the diverse teams perform better.
18:14
We know from companies left, right and centre that if the,
18:21
the moment you promote women to leadership positions, the, the
18:27
culture changes in a positive way.
18:29
And I I'm like, OK, so what's keeping these quote, UN quote
18:35
guys in VC from making that change?
18:41
Yeah, I, I think it's it, it has several factors, but I, I think
18:47
it's, I think it's, it has to do also a lot with unconscious
18:51
bias. So not actually knowing that
18:55
you're working in such way and that other people that may not
19:03
well look in the same way as you do have have also interesting
19:09
inputs. So I think it's, it's often just
19:12
not knowing that and also the culture that you have built in
19:15
your fund is actually maybe not welcoming to everyone.
19:20
So I, I think it has to do with one on the the fund level.
19:25
I think it's, it's just will become more aware of your blind
19:30
spots and making sure that you will in the end be more
19:36
inclusive in well, gathering other inputs from others and
19:42
really appreciating, appreciating it.
19:45
So I think on, on that level, it's, it's lacking.
19:48
And I think also on the, what I also see is, well, people,
19:53
especially when they're younger, they, they kind of need to
19:56
indeed they need sponsors like Mod said, but you also need,
20:01
well, you need also a certain training in order to develop
20:05
and, and well, develop your personal skills and, and
20:08
technical skills. And I think that's in PC also
20:12
lacking a lot. There is very little budget.
20:16
For trainings, so there is actually almost none.
20:21
Well that also has to do with the cost structures of funds
20:24
often. But the the problem is that then
20:28
you'll have to find it somewhere outside and and that's something
20:31
that we really try to address with women if you see.
20:35
OK. So yeah, Mao, do you want to
20:38
chime in? Yeah, maybe in addition to that
20:40
as well as if you've started a fund with for men, for example,
20:44
you're also doing things the way you've already you've always
20:49
been doing it, right. So I think it's really changing
20:52
a narrative of your fund and also hiring a, a woman in this
20:57
team, but then keep a woman in the team of four male people
21:02
that are more senior perhaps in running this fund.
21:06
So it's also it, it requires also, yeah, adaptation skills of
21:12
the people that are already in the fund.
21:14
It's very difficult to actually hire a woman as a partner in a
21:17
fund with four men, for example, because that's still not equally
21:21
distributed, right. So also, yeah, a woman in a
21:27
partner position where most of the team is still male can be
21:31
still quite difficult. And I still hear that people
21:35
also in those positions, they yes, sometimes people don't let
21:40
them talk like they get interrupted all the time.
21:42
So that's, it's like the same problem, I think.
21:46
So it's also really indeed, like Erica said, also being open to
21:52
changing the way you work and be aware of the way that you look
21:56
at things and that other people can actually bring fresh and new
22:00
perspectives that maybe you, you yourself haven't thought about.
22:05
OK, Yeah. So I was, I'm wondering, yeah,
22:08
how can we bring this sense of urgency in?
22:12
Because if, if I hear you correctly, one, one of the
22:16
things that is lacking, there's education, of course there's I
22:21
was actually quite shocked by your remark that there's no
22:24
education budgets, Erica. Yeah.
22:27
Because I, I, I, I think that's like one of the base parts of
22:33
running a good company anywhere. Yeah.
22:37
And yeah. And I think, I think to that, I
22:39
think particularly the smaller funds that are that, that will
22:45
have just also more little or or smaller budgets because of the
22:51
management fee that is in the end related to the fund size,
22:56
which also kind of in the end leads to very little budget for,
23:01
for training. But the bigger the funds,
23:04
probably they'll they'll have bigger budgets.
23:06
So it also depends a bit on on well the type of fund.
23:10
But overall we see that there is very little money spent on
23:17
trainings, personal trainings. So that, that's why we kind of
23:21
take that role and, and, and people feel really kind of
23:25
personally motivated just to develop and, and work on their
23:31
skills, but it's not per SE something that is driven by old,
23:37
well, your, your, your partners. No, but yeah, then that that
23:42
keeps me wondering why, how we can get the sense of urgency in.
23:47
Is that is that also a matter of training or because I recognize
23:52
your remark amount on on if you're hiring a woman and you've
23:57
been running the front with four men, you tend to continue
24:02
running as as you've always done, maybe with with more
24:08
literally a fifth wheel on the wagon.
24:12
How do how do we get these guys to be more open, more
24:19
hospitable? Good question.
24:23
I think that's very difficult to answer because changing like
24:26
it's also in our culture, right? It's rooted, it's rooted in our
24:30
culture. So I think it's also very
24:32
difficult to change it, but I think there are more funds like
24:36
seeing that they're actually missing out on good deals or
24:40
diverse deal flow and that they're there.
24:44
There's also like, I don't want to say that people don't want to
24:46
change. They do want to change.
24:48
I have this this talk with my male counterparts as well.
24:52
And they, they also wanted to change, you know, but changing
24:55
it is, is difficult. So it's not that it's their
24:59
fault or something, but it's just going to take a lot of time
25:04
to, to make a culture change. And also, of course, women also,
25:10
yeah, it's necessary that they also want to stay in the sector
25:14
because if, you know, we have a quite dynamic work and sometimes
25:20
it can require quite some time to, to carry out our work.
25:24
So it's also you, you have to be able to manage that during your
25:29
week. And it's the same for men, but
25:31
maybe also in some families there are still some like more
25:35
traditional structures or you know, so I think there's,
25:38
there's also more, yeah, the, the job is not very easy just to
25:43
to leave at 5:00 and then do that every day.
25:48
And, and, and that's it. You know, it's also quite
25:51
demanding job. Yeah, yeah.
25:53
Because yeah, we, we yesterday we had a WhatsApp conversation,
25:56
I think at 11 in the evening. I'd I hope that that doesn't
26:02
represent your standard working hours, but.
26:06
No. And I'm, I'm, yeah, I also like
26:10
it a lot, you know, because yeah, I'm thinking a lot about
26:15
my work, but it also gives me a lot of energy.
26:17
So I still have the time for that right now.
26:21
Is that also one of the sites of the work that you actually
26:28
there's a lot of analytical skills involved.
26:30
I think that that you can actually, I mean, there's always
26:34
time to to think I would would believe.
26:39
Where am I wrong there? No, of course, yeah, that's
26:44
true. And, and it's also you learn
26:45
something about new markets every day because the one day
26:49
you're working on company that's active in farming and then the
26:53
other day you're looking at a company that's active in AI.
26:56
So totally not related, you know, so that's something that I
27:00
actually find really interesting that you learn something every
27:03
day. But like I mentioned before,
27:07
it's also, it's also very important in a sector to network
27:11
a lot. And there are many, many
27:13
networking events like especially in these months that
27:17
can be 1 every day. And these networking events are
27:20
always in the evening, you know, at these side events or yeah, or
27:25
drinks or gatherings. They're, they're often in the
27:29
evening. So yeah, it's it requires a lot
27:34
of flexibility. Yeah.
27:36
And just for context of the listeners, we're recording this
27:40
at at the beginning of July, sorry.
27:43
And and June and July are really busy at least in the Netherlands
27:48
with networking events, I think internationally even.
27:53
So just before the summer starts and then you get a dip in August
27:57
and then in September through November, you get a lot more.
28:03
And, and to your point, you have really you need to be flexible,
28:08
be able to, to be flexible. So Erica, I was wondering about
28:13
one thing. Yeah, we talked about education
28:16
and, and that it's possibly also part, part of the cause is that
28:24
there's an issue with budgets. So how do you educate yourself?
28:28
How do you keep up to standard with the information about
28:33
sector besides from reading the newspaper?
28:36
Well, I don't, I don't know. Do you need newspaper or
28:40
websites or what? Yes.
28:41
Well, certainly you also need so, so you have indeed maybe
28:45
just to get the that get that clear.
28:47
So you have one education more on the kind of personal
28:50
development and of course you have education on just diving
28:53
into specific sectors or specific propositions.
28:57
And that is I think just well inherent to or or that's just
29:02
your job. So you really need to dive into
29:05
when you see a certain startup that you really like, you'll
29:09
just need to know every nitty gritty of the market.
29:13
And so that that is something that you'll, you'll actually
29:16
learn either well, both through kind of desk research, but also
29:20
talking to people, reference calls, talking to industry
29:25
experts or people in your network.
29:27
So that's where this network is also very important for.
29:31
And then on the, so more on the educational side, if you want to
29:35
learn more about well, how you, you do well, how, how do you
29:40
actually negotiate a term sheets?
29:43
So what are the kind of important terms that you need to
29:47
be aware of? And, and so, so that's or, or
29:50
for example, on valuations, how do I evaluate a company, but
29:57
also on personal skills, indeed, how, how do I perform in a
30:02
board? Those are, I think the ones that
30:05
do need well, either trainings or mentorships or through well
30:11
coaching. And that is something that we
30:14
really try to do also with the women in VC is to, to really
30:19
bring that knowledge and network in order to kind of well propel
30:26
your, your, your, your skills and, and your knowledge and, and
30:32
development. Is that your career?
30:36
Yeah, exactly. And, and in the end that will,
30:39
will, will it, it will help you in, in just your promotions also
30:43
in, in within your fund or outside.
30:46
And I think that's super important.
30:48
And maybe to my point where I was saying so there's too little
30:52
budget. I think I'm I'm mostly talking
30:54
about just kind of the, the classical VC funds.
30:58
There are of course many other types of funds or investor types
31:03
which may have budgets. For example, VP capital where I
31:08
work, there is actually a big training budget, but that's a
31:12
family office. So it's it has a different
31:14
structure. So, so it really depends.
31:17
Overall you see that the kind of classical VC funds have very
31:22
little budget there. And maybe, yeah, to the point
31:26
and maybe we'll we'll be discussing that a little bit
31:28
later as well. But I think on, on education,
31:32
one of the things that we we've set up last year was a newly
31:37
venture program, which is a program that is actually meant
31:41
well for female investors with work experience of above 5
31:45
years. But it's, it's both meant for
31:48
women that actually just entered the CC industry as well as
31:52
people that are already more seniors or also on partner
31:55
level, because we believe that you can learn a lot from each
31:59
other. And that program is in the end,
32:03
it, it consists of several workshops where you'll just be
32:07
talking, discussing on specific topics like fundraising,
32:11
negotiations, and then you'll have intervision sessions where
32:16
you'll just be talking with other, well, smaller groups, but
32:21
people like minded people that you want to present your
32:26
specific challenges that you face too.
32:29
And, and they'll, they'll can actually provide feedback.
32:31
And I think that's through these.
32:33
I'm just talking, this is an example of, of a program that we
32:37
set up. But I think it, those are super
32:40
important in order to, to really equip the female investors in
32:45
one, broaden their network, finding just people that you can
32:49
really trust and, and will discuss and be very open to
32:55
things that that will, that will challenges or problems that you
33:00
face. But also, well, it's, it's in
33:04
the end also just the education that we want to provide.
33:08
Yeah, it's a sort of education session meets mastermind meets
33:13
networking. Yeah, exactly.
33:15
It's a bit of a mix of those opponents.
33:19
Yeah, because it also to, if I hear you correctly, it also sort
33:24
of creates opportunities for the for the coaching and mentorship
33:28
part, because you have, let's say, different people operating
33:35
in different levels of of AVC organization.
33:39
And I think also for smaller VC funds for women working there.
33:44
It also provides an opportunity then to touch base on things
33:50
that they run into on a daily basis.
33:52
And yeah, if you're alone, you're alone.
33:56
Certainly so I think there you do we actually well, this was a
34:01
kind of a first cohort where there were now doing this for a
34:05
second one. But I, I think the feedback that
34:08
you get also from the the kind of higher levels is that there
34:12
is a huge need for just for discussions on everyone has in
34:20
their work challenges that you'll be facing.
34:23
And I think just the strength of just being able to in, in a very
34:29
kind of secure and, and trust environment to be able to share
34:35
these challenges and, and thoughts that you're having is
34:38
just super powerful. I think in the end it, it, it
34:43
also is something that you that men will appreciate as well.
34:47
But I think it is in the end, the women that we want to
34:51
support here in particular because they're a minority.
34:56
Yeah. And I think it's it's also a
34:58
beautiful way to at least create an ecosystem with a safe space.
35:04
Yes, exactly. And you're sort of in the
35:07
process creating this this pipeline because do you then
35:11
also see people transfer from 1 VC to the other as a result?
35:15
I haven't seen it directly from the New Leaf program yet, but
35:20
I'm sure there will be because there is often transitions to
35:25
other funds as well. I think it's in the end we do
35:28
see that happen. I mean overall the PC industry
35:31
is a pretty small market in the Netherlands.
35:35
Every well people know each other or or well get to know
35:39
each other quite, quite fast, particularly through these types
35:43
of networks like the the women in VC.
35:45
But so that that definitely enhances or facilitates those
35:50
transitions as well. Yeah, and I, I.
35:53
Think sounds. You mentioned something here
35:57
that's actually also quite important because what happens a
36:00
lot in VC is that vacancies are not even coming online.
36:04
So you also get jobs just because, you know, people.
36:08
And yeah, therefore it's also super important to network.
36:12
Maybe we can, as fans, we can also do something differently
36:15
here to really share a vacancy because that's actually very
36:20
important for for people to open up the space a little bit.
36:23
But yeah, I think that's also what's what helps a lot is if
36:27
you increase your network, you will also better know like where
36:32
our positions open and and yeah, you get these chances.
36:36
Yeah, A, you get, you hear about them, and B you're, you get on,
36:42
as I call them, scouting lists. Yeah.
36:46
Because most, most employers and I don't think from what I hear
36:52
VCs are the exception there have a sort of list of people, hey,
36:56
if we have an open position here, we want to ask the this,
37:01
these are the top 3 outside candidates.
37:03
Let's say you need to be on that on those lists as well.
37:09
So maybe a good time also to, to switch to, to women in VC as a
37:14
community. We talked about the new leaf
37:16
program it's in. It's it's coming up to its
37:19
second cohort. What I heard both of you say is
37:25
that there's a lot of networking, a lot of education
37:28
going on. What else do you offer as a
37:34
community to female investors? I can tell a little bit more
37:39
about it and please add on mouth, but I think with with
37:44
indeed there there's educational training is is a very important
37:47
one. Network is an important one.
37:49
Indeed the well the new leaf program.
37:51
What we actually, I think I do have to mention that because it
37:54
is actually also makes it even more powerful is that we Co
37:58
organise that with NVP and level 20.
38:03
So those are well it makes it very kind of powerful because
38:08
they'll bring a lot of input as well on the the educational side
38:12
and and then the exposure to a bigger network.
38:17
But other than that, we have a gallery, which is all the female
38:22
investors have registered their with their funds and the types
38:26
of the focus that they have on the types of investments and
38:31
founders actually have female founders have access to that
38:34
gallery. So that it, it helps a lot in
38:38
just bringing the female founders a bigger network of the
38:43
right type of investors that they're looking for.
38:46
So it it's so it's enabling them And well, MO MOT had actually
38:53
did, did a lot of work on that. I think on one hand, it's just
38:56
super cool to see that the female investors are actually
39:01
giving access to their, their, their kind of focus.
39:04
And, and because that is not very uncommon thing that people
39:08
are so open about what they, what they do, what they, what
39:14
they're looking for, because they are also afraid that
39:17
they'll just be bombed by founders that are looking for
39:21
capital. But here there's actually a lot
39:23
of openness in order to make sure that we actually reach
39:27
those female founders as well. Yeah.
39:30
What I really like about that is that it also makes the whole due
39:37
diligence part for the founders a lot easier because usually one
39:41
of the these, that's what I hear a lot is that it's so difficult
39:46
to find the right investor because you need to be in the
39:49
right vertical, the right stage, the right ticket size.
39:55
And if you have, I think it was an air table or another at least
40:01
sort of dashboard thing where you can see, OK, hey, I need to,
40:06
I can skip these people off the list and I need to really focus
40:10
on, on these people. It makes your your funding
40:13
efforts a lot easier. Yeah, yeah.
40:15
And we see that that in particular for female founders,
40:19
one of the reasons why they will have more difficulty in, in
40:24
finding capital, attracting capital is because they don't
40:29
always have that network. And therefore this isn't a way,
40:34
a tool to enable them and, and, and well, also giving them that
40:39
exposure. So that is an important one.
40:44
Maybe one other I would like to add is that we're, we're
40:47
actually actively looking for a lot of partnerships as well with
40:50
other types of organizations. Like for example, there were,
40:55
there was an event organized by Femstart where we Co organized
41:01
Femstart is actually organizing pitch competitions for female
41:05
founders. And they also provide the well
41:08
education on the, the pitch pitches itself or how to hold a
41:12
company. And I think those are also super
41:14
important to have in our ecosystem.
41:19
And, and we're very much looking for these type of of
41:22
partnerships as well, Although we do want to, I mean our main
41:28
focus is really to get more female investors in the industry
41:33
and really retain them also in the industry.
41:37
Yeah, so I'm out. You want to chime in?
41:42
Yeah. So, so I think indeed what
41:44
Erica's saying is, is we've we've recently had a strategy
41:48
session on logic. OK, what are we going to do?
41:50
Because the funding gap is a real big issue.
41:52
Is it something that we can solve?
41:54
Well, we, we do this, we are in a board with four people.
41:58
So Erica, VP Capital, Sophie Heimbach had no such ventures
42:03
and lots of it like at Gapya Ventures and me from Golden
42:06
Golden Neck check. But so we, we all do it besides
42:12
our job, right. So, but but we really want to do
42:15
something about it. And this was basically for us a
42:18
way to say, OK, we are focusing on one part of the problem,
42:22
which is that there's a lack of women investors in decision
42:27
making positions, but we want to do something about it.
42:31
And that's basically opening up our network to FEMA founders.
42:34
So indeed the database can be used as a first filter on like
42:39
which funds are there, which, which funds fit your strategy?
42:43
We hope that's helping. And I also sometimes get asked
42:47
questions from founders like, hey, do you know a fund that's
42:50
good that suit my company. So then, yeah, of course I can
42:55
try to make introductions for you with the investors.
42:59
And yeah. And indeed, the partnerships
43:02
will also help us to reach more female founders and to open up
43:06
our network even more. So yeah, I'm really, really
43:10
happy we we were able to do that.
43:12
Yeah. And on on the on the partnering
43:14
side, I think there's also a list of what I would call
43:19
service providers. So people who can do marketing,
43:23
who can do accounting, etcetera. I mean, can you tell a bit more
43:27
about that? Yeah.
43:28
So we since January, we restructured the community.
43:32
So right now we have basically have three groups, one for
43:35
investors only, one for investors and founders, and one
43:39
for investors and service providers.
43:41
So often PCs are looking for services to help their portfolio
43:45
companies. And in this WhatsApp group, we
43:47
often see that PCs are, for example, asking like, hey, I'm
43:51
looking for a fractional CFO for a company in My Portfolio.
43:56
Anyone in this group that could help me?
43:59
So yeah, indeed, we, we try to, yeah, keep, keep those
44:04
connections also close to us. And we also use it sometimes for
44:09
them workshops that we give. So outside of the newly venture
44:14
program, we also give workshops just for any member.
44:18
And if we want to do a session on scaling, for example, we can
44:23
ask in the service provider group if, if someone wants to
44:25
give a workshop on scaling. So yeah, it's very helpful.
44:30
OK cool. And if there's someone who is
44:34
who can do workshops on biases, then probably you also ask that
44:38
question. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
44:40
Yeah, yeah. So to give an example, we also
44:45
worked with Ian who's on session on on term sheets, for example.
44:50
But indeed, I'm, I'm still looking at a service provider
44:54
that could help me on a session on investment biases.
44:57
So if there's anyone, then they reach out to me.
45:00
That's a nice little bridge to the back to the biases because
45:04
there's one thing that struck me.
45:06
I think you said it mouth that when you've always done things
45:12
like you've done things, you will continue to do that.
45:16
Also you need, you will keep looking for the same things.
45:21
So that's yeah, a pattern matching, I think, or
45:25
confirmation bias. How do you how can we break that
45:28
a bit? Besides adding more women, what
45:33
else can we do? Yeah, that's very difficult
45:36
actually to to change that I think.
45:39
Yeah, good question. What?
45:40
What role can what role can more women play there?
45:44
Well, I think I think for example, what women can do
45:47
indeed is, and that's also what we discussed internally with
45:52
with our members during International Women's Day.
45:54
We had a really nice breakfast and we had a discussion on this,
45:58
like what can we do to find more women and support them better
46:01
during their founder journey? And one of the things that we
46:07
discussed there is also like if, if we, if you reject the
46:11
proposition, for example, from a female founder, also try to
46:14
really give them honest feedback.
46:16
And yeah, sometimes, like we always try to give honest
46:21
feedback, of course, but sometimes, yeah, it just doesn't
46:24
fit. Or you know, it's, it's a bit,
46:27
yeah, you just want to keep it short.
46:29
But what I'm trying to do as investor is also to really take
46:34
time then and, and explain them why it doesn't fit for us at the
46:37
moment or if I think they're investor ready at all.
46:42
And I really try to also put some time in in consulting
46:46
people on this and how they should approach reaching
46:50
investors or what they can do or if they're investor ready.
46:54
So I really try to share the knowledge that I have in a
46:58
network that I have with people and more, I think even more if
47:01
they're women founders, yeah. Yeah, I think also indeed
47:06
sharing your, your network, I think that the women that are
47:10
there, I think, well, one, it's of course important to create
47:13
that mass of more female investors at the investor table.
47:18
I think super important. But other than that, I think
47:21
it's indeed the, the women that are already there share as much
47:26
network that you are, you're having, but also try to coach
47:29
other, other women in your in your network or in, in this
47:35
industry to really create that kind of ripple effect.
47:39
I think it's, it's super important that we all are, are
47:43
open to kind of help each other out instead of competing with
47:48
each other. Not, I'm not saying that that is
47:50
the case, but I think it is we, we should be very collaborative
47:54
and I think and overall women have that in them.
47:59
So, but let's do that more actively.
48:01
Let's let's make sure that we'll all yeah, help each other and,
48:07
and also trying to be visible in this industry just to because I
48:12
think also talking, for example, about role models.
48:16
I think it is in the end, I think we, we, we maybe sometimes
48:23
have that definition of role model in our minds that you have
48:26
to be like a celebrity or something, but that's not the
48:29
case. I think a role role model is in
48:31
the end, just something that you have that inspires others and,
48:35
and everybody can be a role model.
48:37
I think there's also not as a person myself, I, I don't have
48:42
one role model, but I just take different pieces of different
48:47
people around me, which I really appreciate and, and think I
48:51
would like to well, kind of add to my skills or to my way of
48:59
doing so. What I'm saying is that role
49:03
model models are important, but I think everybody should be
49:06
aware that they actually are a role model, probably a role
49:10
model to someone else as well. Yeah, Yeah.
49:13
I think that's really powerful to say that really there's
49:16
always, because I also have this, as I call it, pick and
49:21
choose approach where I look at sometimes people can do things
49:27
one thing really well and rest maybe well, they're they're at
49:33
the standard level, which is quite OK, But I always try to,
49:38
to really lead to focus on what people do well and then what can
49:42
I learn from them? And if you, I agree with you,
49:47
Erica, that if you changed your approach of learning and looking
49:51
at role models at that makes it makes the pool bigger and also
50:00
makes it easier to let's the rest go.
50:04
It's also because many people have sort of fall in the trap,
50:08
Like if you have to be a role model, then you have to be
50:10
perfect all around. Like you almost have to be gold.
50:17
And this this sort of avoids that trap I would say.
50:22
Yeah. And I think as a founder, I
50:25
mean, like if you start a business, you're, you come in a
50:29
bubble of people that also found these companies and it maybe
50:32
have more ARR like annual recurring revenue already.
50:35
And they're, they have a very successful business that perhaps
50:38
there are many people that are still in their corporate life,
50:41
they've thought about like setting up a business that they
50:45
like didn't have the, the well chance or, or not or whatever
50:50
to, to start it. And yeah, if you are a founder,
50:54
you did, you know, you, you give up a lot actually to build your
50:58
business because you believe in in your vision and anything that
51:03
you're building. And that's already super
51:05
inspiring. I think any founder can be and
51:09
any person indeed can be a role model.
51:12
And yeah, sometimes it seems like I said that if you're in a
51:15
bubble of founders that maybe you're not doing well, but
51:19
actually you've already come so far by starting your own
51:22
business, you know? So it's really worth it also to
51:25
share that with people and, and go on stage and tell your story
51:28
on how you did that because you you actually might inspire many
51:31
people to do the same. Yeah, I think that's really
51:34
often underestimated power you have by by starting and and also
51:41
as an investor I would think because that's a question I
51:44
still had. Can you also be an investor,
51:49
maybe on an Angel level if you're still working a corporate
51:53
job? Yeah, definitely.
51:54
Yeah. There are Angel initiatives
51:57
where you can actually, yeah, put in small amounts of money
52:03
and you don't have to be a rich person or an Exodus founder to
52:07
become A to become a business Angel.
52:10
So I think to communities that are good, like if you're
52:14
interested that to become an Angel founder that are very good
52:17
in this is for example, the Angel initiative or there's a
52:20
new initiative now it's called adventure.
52:23
Those are really yeah, good, good initiatives to to start
52:27
Angel investing. Yeah, sorry that they even also
52:32
touch on another thing that's very important and that's also
52:35
personal wealth. So, you know, as as female
52:40
Angel, for example, if you can invest your money this way, it's
52:44
also, yeah, it's helping other founders, but also your own
52:47
personal wealth. Yeah, if you do it right, yeah.
52:51
But that's probably, probably, yeah.
52:55
That's always a thing that we have to keep in mind.
52:59
You don't. You do this with money you can
53:01
miss, and you do this probably start with companies where you
53:04
at least have a bit of a feel of what they do that you at least
53:08
understand what's the risk you take.
53:12
Yeah, and there are education programs as well.
53:15
OK. To learn how to educate the the,
53:20
the that bottom of the pipeline, I would say.
53:22
The Angel, if that's. You mean yeah.
53:25
Well, Angel, it's just more in our community, but we like
53:30
they're, they're welcome to join our sessions, of course.
53:35
But it is I think we mostly focus on on women in venture
53:38
capital. And there are also other
53:41
platforms that focus on solely Angel investors.
53:43
But Angel investors are welcome to our community, but we don't
53:46
have specific workshops on Angel investing.
53:49
No, OK, clear. So I want to move a bit towards
53:55
the end of this session. You talked about having a
53:58
strategy session. What are the plans for the
54:00
future? There's the second cohort of New
54:04
Leaf coming out. What else?
54:05
Yeah. I think with New Leaf, we've
54:07
seen that because, because there's also many senior women
54:11
joining this program and we've seen that they also like to have
54:15
like sparing partners to to share experiences with.
54:20
So I think what we will do internally is also see how we
54:24
can restructure it even more and yeah, create smaller groups
54:29
because right now we have a community of 180 female
54:33
investors. So it's becoming quite big.
54:36
And sometimes that also makes it that you feel more anonymous.
54:39
So we're currently thinking on how we could, yeah, structure
54:44
the the community better to also, yeah, connects people a
54:48
bit more on, on a deeper level. So we're going to work on this
54:53
during the summer and yeah, hopefully after summer we can,
54:58
yeah, we can kick it off. OK, cool.
55:01
Yeah. And also I think what's also
55:04
nice in New Leaf program is that you see we, we connect also more
55:09
senior people with, with people with at least five years of
55:13
working experience. So there's also, I think we, we
55:16
also hope that there's like for example, mentor duos rising from
55:22
this, you know, if you have a question on building your own
55:25
fund or yeah, whatever that, you know, who to call and that yeah,
55:30
people can help each other out. So I think that's going to be
55:33
our main thing to connect our community even more.
55:36
OK. So building connections and
55:38
educating people, Yeah, that's there.
55:40
That's the two focus points. Yeah.
55:42
And I think maybe to add 1 is what we also are are thinking of
55:47
because you, you do have other women in CC communities also
55:51
outside of the Netherlands. So really try to see if we can
55:55
join forces there as well. So there is one pan European,
55:58
one unlucked sea and also trying to see if there are good
56:04
collaborations with these networks to actually make it
56:08
also international. Because in the end also for
56:12
your, your, the start-ups that you're investing in that want to
56:15
internationalize or want to raise another fund outside of
56:19
the Netherlands, it's actually, well, a big strength to have
56:23
that network outside our borders as well.
56:26
Yeah, I was about to say Dutch market is is the Dutch market.
56:32
It's not particularly big. No, no, no, no.
56:37
We do realize that there is a rule outside.
56:40
So let's say we're about 10 years from now and there's how
56:45
many percent of work positions are then filled by women.
56:50
So investor on the investors on the VC side.
56:53
Do you want to have our the the dream answer or the realistic
56:58
answer? No, the dream answer the.
57:00
Dream answer. Well, in that case, I would
57:03
actually, I really would like to push that in the end, the board
57:11
and just I think in general in the PC industry, it is more of a
57:15
reflection of society. So it's not only women and men,
57:19
of course, but just overall diversity.
57:22
Well, as you said, the figures, the numbers are real, that
57:26
they're there. Diversity is in the end well
57:31
brings the best performance and and is is in the in the end the
57:36
the answer. So if I have to give my dream
57:40
answer, I would say that the board would look exactly as a
57:44
reflection of society, meaning that there is half female, Half
57:49
Men, but also other types of diversity in the board.
57:54
And that will really in the end bring the kind of balanced
57:57
decisions in the companies and and well you see them building
58:03
also for customers that are more diverse and not only surfing one
58:09
type of customer base. Yeah, I think same.
58:13
I think the reflection of society is very important and
58:18
we're now focusing on gender, but there's there's more ways of
58:22
diversity that we should indeed focus on to to make the results
58:27
even better. What can men do?
58:30
So because if we want to move to a more 5050 base of women in
58:36
decision taking positions, how can men facilitate this?
58:41
Yeah, I, I think it's important to be aware that you have your
58:45
own bubble network. So it's important to also try
58:49
and, and look at other networks outside of your own bubble.
58:54
Maybe ask different questions to to founders because women tend
59:01
to be more or that's that's always what I read like women
59:05
tend to be more risk averse. But actually I always see only
59:08
like very well motivated propositions of women.
59:11
They exactly know where their money goes.
59:14
They have everything well thought true actually.
59:16
So I yeah, I'm always like risk. Like by only building your
59:22
company, you already take a lot of risks.
59:24
So yeah. And actually the risk aversity
59:29
it's. Actually.
59:31
They are aware of all the risks that are in the business and
59:34
they actually have a plan on how to mitigate them.
59:37
So I'm I'm only enthusiastic about this.
59:40
Yeah, I, I think women are more risk prepared than men.
59:44
I don't think they're necessarily they're better.
59:48
It's it's a myth that women are more risk averse.
59:50
They're not. They need, they want more
59:53
information and they want, they are usually better prepared,
59:57
which actually from my own experience makes them better
1:00:02
risk managers. So that's why you see in
1:00:05
especially in risk management positions in, in large finance
1:00:09
financial companies, actually the the split man where woman
1:00:14
is, I would not say 5050, but at least close to it.
1:00:19
Yeah. And I think another thing that
1:00:21
that men maybe could do is also try to see if you can create an
1:00:25
unbiased evaluation tool if if you're evaluating companies and
1:00:30
it shouldn't actually matter if there's a man or a woman or a
1:00:34
woman in front of you. Yeah.
1:00:37
And be aware of this and see how you can actually diversify your
1:00:41
funnel and your and the way that you look at companies.
1:00:45
Yeah. Would opening up the networks
1:00:48
also help? Because I I think it's, it's a
1:00:51
small network, everyone knows each other.
1:00:53
But if the the moment you start sharing deals with women with
1:00:59
women feces. Yeah, No, I think super, super
1:01:02
important also just opening indeed.
1:01:05
Well, I think from, from our end, I think it's in the end
1:01:08
also a goal I think just to integrate our network more with
1:01:12
the mill network. It's not like we're want to
1:01:15
build a kind of container network that is just interacting
1:01:20
completely separately from, from men.
1:01:22
I, I think that's not where you where we should go to.
1:01:25
But I, I think indeed also on the, for example, with events,
1:01:30
you always go to the same events and then you actually, it, it
1:01:36
helps so much better if if you just look around and see, OK,
1:01:40
but what, what is actually, what are other events I would
1:01:43
normally typically not go to. Let's let's attend those and see
1:01:48
if I can actually broaden also my source of of leads by doing
1:01:54
that. Yeah, or, or if you're
1:01:57
organizing an event, see who are who are your Co organizers.
1:02:01
I had a funny example of this because I went to a side event
1:02:08
and and it was organized by only men.
1:02:10
And in the first few hours there were only men present and I was
1:02:16
well, one of the few women. Luckily later on there came a
1:02:19
few women more. But then the other day I, I had
1:02:23
another event that was organized by a very diverse team.
1:02:26
And actually there the crowd was also very diverse.
1:02:28
So I think also in organizing stuff and teaming up with other
1:02:33
VC funds, because men and women in VC can find each other really
1:02:36
well. Also make sure, yeah, if you
1:02:39
could organize something that the team that's organizing it is
1:02:42
also diverse because then you would also attract more diverse
1:02:47
network. So I think that's that's a very
1:02:49
quick win. Yeah, with a with a huge ripple
1:02:52
effect. Exactly.
1:02:53
Yeah, yeah. And it also, it also counts for
1:02:57
us, right. So as women in TC, I think it
1:02:59
would also indeed, like Erica said, would also be good to,
1:03:03
yeah, try to see how we can diverse it, diversify with the
1:03:06
meal networks as well and organize something together.
1:03:09
We're not there. We haven't done it so far, but
1:03:12
but of course, we're also open to this.
1:03:14
So yeah, I think that's very important.
1:03:17
Cool. Let's close it there.
1:03:19
Yeah, out for Mary, Erica for Nathan.
1:03:22
Thank you very much for this wonderful conversation.
1:03:28
Question I always ask at the end is where people can learn more
1:03:33
about you, where they can connect with you, and where they
1:03:37
can find out more information about women in VCNL.
1:03:42
Yes. Well, you can find more
1:03:44
information about women in VCNL at LinkedIn.
1:03:48
So we have our LinkedIn website. We of course are.
1:03:50
We have our WhatsApp groups. So if you want to you're, you're
1:03:55
not member yet and you're an investor or a founder or service
1:03:58
provider, please reach out to us personally and we can make sure
1:04:02
to include you. And we can also, of course, add
1:04:07
you to the gallery as a, as an investor.
1:04:10
And for the New Leaf program, well, currently where the
1:04:13
selection has taken place. So for this year it will not be
1:04:18
open, but it will for next year. We're happy to onboard new
1:04:22
people on on the programme. Yeah, to have people on the
1:04:26
waiting list already. Exactly.
1:04:29
Cool, and people can connect with you Erica via LinkedIn as
1:04:34
well as Oppose. Yes, definitely can always reach
1:04:38
out. Cool.
1:04:40
Mao Sing for me. Yeah, on LinkedIn.
1:04:42
OK, cool. We'll include those links in the
1:04:45
show notes. So once again, thanks very much
1:04:48
for the amazing conversation. Really insightful, this nurse.
1:04:54
Thank you very much for listening and until the next
1:04:56
episode, keep being awesome. Well, that's it for episode 119
1:05:06
of Women Disrupting Tech with Erika Vonageen and Out for
1:05:09
Merlin, titled How women in VCNL close the Funding gap.
1:05:15
Erica Maout. And I hope that you found our
1:05:17
conversation as inspiring as we intended it to be.
1:05:21
And if you have any questions for Erica or Maout, please leave
1:05:25
them in the comments on Spotify, Apple, or YouTube.
1:05:29
I'll make sure you receive an answer.
1:05:32
When you want to connect with Erica or Maut or learn more
1:05:36
about women in VCNL, please check out the links in the show
1:05:39
notes. As usual, you can find the show
1:05:42
notes at Women Disrupting Tactile Block and that link you
1:05:45
can find in the description. If you've enjoyed listening to
1:05:49
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1:07:09
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1:07:12
And until then, as always, keep being awesome.