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Tolkien and Creativity: Creation as Jazz - Part 2 · Mythmakers

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  Welcome to part two of our discussion of Tolkien and creativity.
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  Okay so let's move on to on fairy stories. For me I mean again this is just a wonderful
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  read. So many nuggets in this I've got in my edition there's like side bars of pencil
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  all over the place. But one thing in particular I find really helpful is the answer to the question
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  is what I'm writing original. So that's really tricky. Somebody does sort of doubts their
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  own creativity. The anxiety of influence is another you know I'm just writing too much
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  like somebody else. There's a CS Lewis quote about this which is helpful if if a
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  piece is man but if a person doesn't give tappens about being original but just wants
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  to write truth nine times out of ten they'll find they are being original. So you can just
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  forget about that entirely and just try and tell the truth as you see it and you'll end
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  up being original. But I think in this on fairy stories in terms of our creativity what
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  Tolkien is saying absolutely you're going to be using things that other people have used
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  before because it's all gone into the cauldron of story and he has this sort of long extended
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  metaphor about the cauldron about all the things that have gone into it. He's sort of mentioning
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  all the things he loves that has gone into it or the myths and legends and fairy stories
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  of the past. And then he goes on to say but if we speak of a cauldron we must not wholly
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  forget the cooks. There are many things in the cauldron but the cooks do not dip in the
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  ladle quite blindly. Their selection is important. So that's your role you've got available
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  to you dragons and werewolves and vampires and ghosts and princesses you know the whole
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  thing and it's how you dip in your ladle. I think here what he's pointing at is the role
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  of the intentionality and it did make me think because I've been sort of worrying at this
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  recently because of all the the anxiety at the moment about chatbot GPT and all these
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  other AI generated material that you could say that they're doing a very similar thing. There's
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  a massive cauldron out there of everything that's ever been written that this algorithm is
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  skimming away at and producing passable material. But what is lacking there is the cook. There's
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  a cook behind the AI program but there is no intention on the part of the algorithm. It's
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  a bang of instruction from you but it's it's blind to what it's putting together it doesn't feel
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  anything about it. It can't it's a well not yet anyway not until we're in the world of Star Trek
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  and data at the moment as far as we're aware they don't feel anything about this material. So I think
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  one answer to what's right and what's wrong about AI doing this selection is don't forget the cook.
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  So the cook has to even if the cook is using the equivalent of a microwave to heat up a meal by
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  plugging something into the algorithm there still has to be a cook doing more than just blindly
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  following something that comes back out. Don't just scoop out this stuff with the massive ladle
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  and slop it onto the the world literary world because that is happening at the moment. There was a
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  science fiction publisher who has said it's closed it's closed it's list to new entries because
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  it was being swamped by AI generated work. And of course the front runner on this will be a
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  science fiction publisher because people who write science fiction would be more techy and using
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  these things but it's going to be elsewhere too it'll be going to romance and you know literary
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  fiction and elsewhere. So we have to rethink the role of the cook in all this I think to make
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  if we're going to have literature going forward. I can't imagine anything more anti-talking than
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  Chatbot GPT. Can you? He would be just I don't know. Dropping his butt. I think he would say yeah
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  so he would say well because he's already he's already suspicious of technology and things
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  that are used just to further. So like so he would say yeah that that's essentially that's
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  melkori and magic right. So yeah. Saving words and other people have created
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  testing them and then using them for your owners that that I feel like that's what talking would
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  say that would be his hot take. Yeah. So well so do you draw out of the unfairly stories in the sense
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  of creativity? Yeah in terms of the original creativity for authors artists individuals I think
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  for me there was a couple different things one of them was kind of again this capacity that we saw
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  in in metapia where essentially right where we we make in the law by which we're made right
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  you're referring to a T. S. Eliot right that each individual has something innate in them that
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  allows them to create right the humanity one of our shared capacities is for creation that's what
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  sets us apart from the other animals and trees and like you're saying that or from AI
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  chatbots is that that we are doing something with language and so like the ability so so that's
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  one thing that so each person but but sure the fact that we use language and that we can be aware
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  about the language that we use we can use it intentionally and so he so I love this how he
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  equates language with magic and so I just want to read a little bit of here and this is again
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  from from fairy stories says the human mind endowed with the powers of generalization and abstraction
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  sees not only green grass discriminating it from other things but see that it is green as well
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  as being grass so you can separate not just like green grass as like a single a single word a
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  single object but this is grass and it is green so he says but how powerful how stimulating
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  to the very faculty that produced it the invention of the adjective no spell or incantation in
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  fairy is more potent so he's saying the adjectives by qualifying nouns right so I'm not saying
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  grass like green grass that's something that is powerful our ability to qualify
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  give quality to a particular object so he goes on to say the mind that thought of light heavy
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  gray yellow still swift and those are thoughts that ball had have daily right also conceived of
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  magic that would make heavy things light and be able to fly turned gray led into yellow gold
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  still into us into a swift water when we can take green from grass blue from heaven and red from
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  blood we have all the n and canters power so the each person essentially and I love the way that
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  that kind of reframes just our our conversations like what we're having right now this is kind of a
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  and it's not like a magical duel like that's an argument an argument any argument can be seen as
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  a duel of magic because you're using words and you're using them for certain purposes and you
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  can use words to make people hurt you can use words to make people laugh you can use words to make
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  people feel joy and think and it's the words themselves how you're shaping them not just using those
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  sounds or just saying words but your intention as the creator to do that you can do it in fashion
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  things and so he says using those adjectives or just the fact like just that I think is remarkable
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  and this revolutionary for me is like yes like just the fact that I can qualify a noun I can say
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  that it is green grass that I can then say well what about bluegrass and token uses this idea here
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  like the green sun right um positing and creating a world in which these things can be other than
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  what we're experiencing right now he says we may put a deadly green upon a man's face and produce a
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  horror we may make the rare and terrible blue moon to shine or we may cause woods to spring with
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  silver leaves and rams to wear fleeces of gold and put hot fire in the belly of the cold worm such
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  in but in such fantasy as it is called new form is made fairy begins man becomes sub-creators this
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  is going back to that term sub-creator that we saw uh in uh in uh nitha pia um and so he he kind
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  of essentially says this aspect of mythology or sub-creation rather than either representation or
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  symbolic interpretation of the beauties and terrors of the world is I think too little considered so
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  where you have mythology what he sees and he's addressing people they're talking about um Andrew Lang
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  and the mode of understanding myth is uh good to this school and what he's addressing is people
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  who are looking at the idea of creation of mythology that how this has happened historically are
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  the humanities longing for putting order and making sense of the world so this is essentially
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  these are just kind of allegories if you will for how the world works of Thor is actually just
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  thunder and lightning that's that and they're just creating they're just because they're too simple
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  to touch people are too simple to understand it in terms of like bare metric pressure and
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  right precipitation and these sorts of things and how you know liquids become solid and evaporate
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  in that right so so they're kind of the uh a more simplistic in this way of saying more simplistic
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  mode of engaging the world is just understanding what's already there um in kind of symbolic or
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  visceral terms but what Tolkien is saying here is what another type of mythology is taking
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  the language and remixing it right rearranging it intentionally to create something holy new to
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  create a green sun to create dwarves to create beings um so that they then become something holy new
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  that doesn't actually exist in our world but then becomes part of this way he calls a secondary
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  world yeah which is what you're creating so uh yeah so that's that's something i don't know the
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  from from on various stories julia for you where he's talking about sub creation and the creation
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  of fantasy what did you take away as like a fantasy author uh implications for you uh so many things
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  but um i think one of the things is don't patronize our ancestors so don't think oh they
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  Thor is only going back to your example Thor is only an explanation for thunder um it's not
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  a Thor is a character uh he's grown into his own world he's much more than just a pseudo scientific
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  explanatory well not an explanation of just so story i suppose it's not a just so story um
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  and another thing i i took away and i think this is why so many of us love talking is that sense
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  of intensity that when you look at the way fantasy captures and describes the tree the hill the home
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  the hearth there is something extra that's still a breathed idea of Lewis but with retaining the magic
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  um and that's that goes runs all the way through this uh this essay is that sense of
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  how you're entering a special atmosphere and why we want to go there and go home and he has a
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  um a phrase about this actually which is a sort of defense of um escapism um
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  why should a man be scorned if finding himself in prison he tries to get out and go home
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  or if then when he cannot do so he thinks and talks about other topics than jayla's and prison walls
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  so there's a sense of there is a kind of home that you can find within fantasy and that's not
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  it has meaning it's not just a lie it an answering to the the cs Lewis problem that he raised back
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  when he was writing with appear but let's do a little nice little segue to um tree and leaf
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  which is at one point in this essay he says who can design a new leaf the pattern from bud to
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  unfolding and the colors from spring to autumn were all discovered by men long ago but that is not
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  true he goes on he's basically saying there's yet more places that you can develop a leaf
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  and that's niggle's problem he's trying to paint he wants to paint the whole landscape but he's got
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  stuck doing a leaf because he's trying to get it right he clearly there is a um a bit of self satire
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  here because talking did niggle away at his world in a delightful sense and um the neighbor who
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  pulls talking talking away possibly the neighbor who's cutting down the tree you know going back
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  to that issue um mr. parish stands for parish duties i suppose it could mean the calls on your
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  life by you know admin at the university and having to fix the car and wash the windows you know
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  that stuff um well he liked doing the garden but feed the chickens whatever it was that he found
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  more of an onerous task um mr. parish is he i think talking is aware that he
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  that that person that thing is necessary in his life because what happens in the story is
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  for old niggles trying to do this leaf he doesn't get very far and then when he goes on his
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  journey which is a sort of metaphor for death uh and he gets to the other side mr. parish is there
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  and together putting their mr. parish's knowledge with niggle's artistry that able to create
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  something even more beautiful um so it's a wonderful um it is pretty much and i don't know
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  i love states and allegory because talking hated allegories it feels very allegorical to me if you
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  think about it does feel more within the kind of pilgrims progress uh sort of
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  structure so i don't know am i am i committing some kind i think i don't think i hear yeah i think
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  i know i think yeah i think you i would like to think i'm talking would be okay with us thinking
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  about this is allegory because this is again this is like a different mode this is him kind of
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  reflecting upon his own creative life and it's impact right uh so i i do not think he would be
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  or is turning in his grave the sort of conversation because i'm taking it seriously and putting it
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  in the context of his life yeah and we're free to apply it to other things so that word
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  applicability he was he was happier with so with this he does actually there is the pressure in
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  niggle's life that what he's doing isn't worth anything why are you spending all this time
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  just working on one leaf and then finding that that leaf is actually a thing that creates a whole new
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  world after death and i'm reminded of the sort of the last battle the different versions of
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  nania there's a sense that you enter in new worlds and it becomes more real and there's more to
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  discover so both Lewis and i'm talking have a sort of concept of the next what happens after death
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  as being creative and read more real and i think both of them are drawing on the the sense of
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  that very fairy tales are capturing something more visceral more profound so maybe that's
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  something that we see after now we see in through a glass darkly then we shall see face to face
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  is you know obviously the biblical way of phrasing that so i think it's quite a optimistic work
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  about the value of art um yeah i see it yeah no no go ahead i was gonna say i think that's a really
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  good way for talking to reconcile himself to the fact he's never going to finish his project
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  to write the silmarillion and maybe in a sense he doesn't want to um because you know you would never
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  say oh yes i finished writing the history of my world because that would close it down and make it
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  himetically sealed and maybe it would die whereas this by having it branching off um and continuing
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  get keeps it alive yeah yeah no i think there's a beautiful way of putting it but then like in
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  you know personal letters and you kind of alluded to this earlier that he saw what he was doing with
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  the creation of middle earth is something that that what he said the language he says that other
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  you know hands and minds would be able to work with and that they could work out other you know
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  corners of this canvas they could you know in uh in opera right in in art and it would inspire
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  people so it's an open system like you're saying instead of a closed system and i think that's
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  that that idea of openness uh to creation uh like he said that maybe he'd never actually really
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  wanted to finish the silmarillion because he keeps tinkering he keeps settling with it to his
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  dying day right he's he's still like playing with these different ideas and um and so here yeah in
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  this story you see that beautifully illustrated by somebody who just like keeps going and he's like
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  i can't possibly do this and then he realizes that he's gonna die and so he knows that it's coming
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  he's like well i can't focus on one thing or maybe maybe all and he's rushing to figure like how
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  i'm just do this lead for this tree and then it just kind of keeps growing and expanding but for
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  me yeah there's this this lead by niggle um speaks to a few different things except like this
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  optimistic view of the creative act and our creative legacy as well so it's the the creative atmosphere
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  at the um kind of context in which we create is inseparable from the community in which we live
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  and so with the the leaf uh when so he's painting the recap of the story you know he's he's painting
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  this lead from this tree uh and that's kind of his life work and he's always thinking about it and he's
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  annoyed his neighbor for asking him to help fix his house and up with his wife who's sick and everything
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  else is an inconvenience and he'll curse at them in his mind or under his breath but never to
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  their faces and he's always and he's always willing to do nice things but it's kind of grudgingly
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  but he just like wants to get back to this work and then he dies and then ultimately he sees this work
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  represented in some other place he's he's it's it's been made real and when he looks at this tree
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  that he's been painting and kind of imagining and trying to work out uh he sees that the tree has
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  all these leaves and they're familiar he knows that it's the tree that he was painting but as it
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  really is or has he really wanted it to be in his mind but as he looks at each of the leaves they
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  have a little date on them for when which part was created and he said you know that the
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  leaves that were that he thought the very best leaves were also done in conjunction with
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  parish this annoying neighbor and so in the year your creative output you can't divorce you
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  you can't just and shouldn't just isolate yourself you know kind of monastically or even more you
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  even even monasteries they were still that was still in the context of community you can't just be
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  like an anchorite like out in the desert and just like be completely segregated because the best
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  art that we do is when we are engaging with others as people in the world and taking them seriously
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  and this speaks to that right so the best parts of his creation were done
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  with some sort of input influence as grudging as that was from his his annoying next door neighbor
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  and so it kind of opens us up I believe as as creatives to the idea of welcoming in interruptions
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  right welcoming uh what's annoying taking life seriously and like you said with with CS Lewis
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  you know if you end up writing truth like the truth of your life and your experience your genuine
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  engagement with humanity that's going to be a real that's going to be far more original and
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  interesting than anything that you're kind of trying to do yourself for your own purposes again
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  that kind of melchorean I'm doing this for my own world because I want to create this and I want to
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  be seen as this creator of this world um one of the things that it one of these voices uh that is
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  talking about uh nickel and they're trying to say like do we let him out of essentially purgatory
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  yeah um into the next stage um there's two voices arguing one saying like no he was he wasn't
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  kind to his neighbors uh he was he didn't even paint that well like why should we let him go he
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  needs to kind of keep working this out but then this other voice kind of the voice of mercy uh says
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  well uh he was a painter by nature in many ways he's still uh in many ways still a leaf by
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  niggle has a charm of its own um he took a great deal he niggle took a great deal of pains with leaves
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  just for their own sake but he never thought that made him important so again there's that attitude
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  intentional it's not writing for the sake of becoming a famous painter a famous author this is
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  concerning yourself with the creative work for its own purpose and because it's inherently good and
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  you're bringing something beautiful in the world not just for you to look at like fan or or your
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  family to look at and peek at and and shield from others but this is really the act of creation is
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  an act of a gift to the world or should be uh in its in its highest in best sense and so
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  because it went when art is done in that mode then it becomes something that enriches others and
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  can inspire them to do the same or do other things in their lives and so really what we see at the end
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  of the story that's really inspiring is you know niggle didn't think that he drew well right and he
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  draws and the little what was left behind when he died ended up getting burned uh ultimately the
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  little bit was was was recovered put in a museum but then like that museum burned and later
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  somebody knew it but the idea of it and when people did interact with it as small as it was
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  and as meekers it was um what these kind of voices say at the end of the story is that
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  this leaf in this other world you know as as he lived on so like the legacy of um of this story
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  that he was creating or this this leaf this painting that he was doing just for its own sake to make
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  something beautiful um he said uh one of voice says it is proving very useful indeed as a holiday
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  as a refreshment or as in very stories you'd say is an escape right um it is splendid for convalescence
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  and not only for that for many it is the best introduction to the mountains and so in this story the
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  mountains is kind of like higher truth higher reality so this this little leaf that he was wasn't
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  doing even that well that because it was a genuine generous creative act it's serving as kind of
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  a conduit for people to see something bigger that lies behind it um and kind of inspires people to
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  move on to bigger better and brighter things in their world um and this voice says it works wonders
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  in some cases and i'm sending more and more there so more people are being referred to their
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  friends are referring each other to this work because it's doing something for them and we do see
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  and again this is before contextually in Tolkien's life this is before he's created before he's
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  published Lord of the Rings so this is i think in a sense prophetic like uninfected so this is kind
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  of optimistic yeah but this actually because so but this happens this this is what actually
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  happens yeah with Lord of the Rings right that everybody recommends it to each other and you
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  you're inspired by it you reread it and for some like this is it touches a nerve in people um that
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  that makes them they want to live inside this world this makes them aware of if it doesn't it doesn't
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  shy away from sorrow sadness pain heartache um and tragedy but there's something in it
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  that that inspires it can give you the strength to go on and to do good in whatever
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  way that is in whatever small hobbitish way that is that you can bring something and do something good
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  to help the world move uh in in in a better brighter direction and you're part of it
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  i must bear this i must bear these lessons in mind when i'm writing i've actually just this week
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  handed in a 90,000 words novel um to be my publisher for editing and when you're doing that you
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  at the end there is an element of you go through a whole kind of life cycle when you're writing
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  and novel um and part of it is the business side of it you know the sort of outward focus how does
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  this work in the market all that kind of thing um but the bit that you really want to protect and
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  to value is the leaf by niggle bit which is the how can i make this a distinct world um something which
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  is my sub creation um and it's it's keeping hold of those whilst also doing it as a profession that
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  is is can be can be quite a challenge um anyway so thank you i think we've we've covered that quite a
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  lot of ground there but there is always more to say um sure we'll dip back into this in many different
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  directions over the over the course of our conversations but i thought i would wrap this up by asking
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  the usual question about where in all the fantasy worlds is the best place to be something and in
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  honor of um the idea we all get to play jazz in and have a riffs of our own what about jazz where do
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  you think the best place to be a jazz player in all the fantasy worlds why would you like to wander on
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  with your saxophone or your you know drums and i know i've already used this answer uh for
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  the previous one we're talking about uh you know a professor uh okay so you're going back there again
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  going back yes so temperate the world of the name of the wind with Patrick Rothfuss so
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  it had some of the most yeah gorgeous descriptions of music and in that world again right so like
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  language is power uh and knowing the names the true names of things much like in uh Ursula
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  Gwins um uh works with earthcy words have power uh and one of these characters you know is because
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  they're concerned about words and the beauty of sounds um and stories they're essentially a bar
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  and and seeing and then it's it's a beautiful description um that can like stop the breaths of an
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  entire stadium you know an auditorium uh over over the uh the description it has of right this
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  main character there and how everybody is kind of hanging on every note every word of that song
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  he's kind of he really is casting a spell on them uh and that just yeah that that part
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  the loot play yes yes yeah that's actually it does have that freestyling thing because he
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  he put one scene he's playing hoping that some a female voice is going to join him he doesn't know
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  if it is going to happen or not right but there's a sense of if this is going to work it sends
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  someone else joins me but not if they don't uh right right yeah so for me I think I'd like to extend
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  the Star Wars world I know they've extended it in many many ways um through all their Mandalorians
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  and what have you but obviously we all know about the cantina band why is nobody making the
• 29:19
  Star Wars extension about that cantina band I think that would be hilarious to make a wonderful part
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  I want to be in the cantina band um because they don't seem to get hurt so you seem to survive
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  which is good but you could imagine them you know getting a gig at the about there and perhaps
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  getting a bit of fame and then going off to another location and you can have a whole sort of
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  subset story about um their their Trubodore life seeing sort of side views of the main Star Wars
• 29:48
  action that's that's where I figured it out I love it and what about top fantasy tip if you got
• 29:54
  something you'd like to share with us I do and I can finally talk about it now because it is
• 29:58
  officially on shelves and available uh for purchase uh on amazon uh and other places but it is
• 30:06
  for those users saying I have here uh the Lord of the Rings adventure book game produced by
• 30:11
  raven's burger as this is where a company that I work for um and so yeah so this is a great game
• 30:16
  it's based off of the films and not the book specifically so it's taking drawing kind of um
• 30:23
  narrative beats from uh the film specifically so there's you unfortunately you will not find
• 30:29
  Tom Vaughan Baudille yeah yeah um very kindly you you sent me an advanced copy of this when I've
• 30:35
  started playing it with my family and what I really like about it is uh I hate really competitive
• 30:41
  games like monopoly where you can spend hours feeling really miserable because you've got
• 30:45
  you know only the old Kent Road to your name um in this you are working cooperatively and you
• 30:51
  have to be aware of what everybody else has got in order to achieve the story and because my
• 30:57
  children no longer live at home but come back from time to time we can go back into this game and
• 31:01
  say right we're onto the next chapter let's have a go of that it doesn't take hours and hours
• 31:05
  like diplomacy or something um so we've thoroughly enjoyed what we've um played so far and um
• 31:13
  and it's very pleasingly got like a nice book that you sort of work your way through my top tip
• 31:18
  this week is um not Star Wars it's Star Trek that Star Trek Picard has come back um and I thought
• 31:29
  the last season was a bit weak I didn't really like it that much but it was okay but I really am
• 31:36
  enjoying this third and final series there's the pleasure for people who who followed Star Trek
• 31:42
  of seeing old faces coming back um but you know there's few creepy bones out there um in terms
• 31:50
  of they're all much older obviously but there's a I think it seems to be quite an interesting story
• 31:56
  and it's building quite nicely so I am looking forward to the weekly episodes um so if you're a
• 32:02
  a trekie who's not been following the Picard you might enjoy this so you can actually join it
• 32:06
  in the last season you don't need to have watched the previous ones to understand what's happening
• 32:12
  um yeah so they are still being creative out there in the world of Star Trek and I wait for
• 32:18
  the call from the Star Wars studio for me to pitch my cantina band side story thank you Jacob thank
• 32:26
  you so much and uh thank you very much for listening
• 32:34
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• 32:41
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