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Tim Walz Keeps the Good Vibes Going · Pod Save America

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America.
• 0:02
  Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer. And I'm Melissa Murray. On today's show,
• 0:04
  Speaker 2: Kamala Harris and her newly minted VP pick.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Tim Wallace did the campaign trail in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: And today's show, Kamala Harris and her newly minted VP
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: pick Tim Wallace Republicans begin their disjointed efforts to define walls.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: And Trump's crimes are back in the news. With me
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: to go through all of it is the excellent Melissa Murray,
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: co-host of the amazing Strict Scrutiny podcast. Melissa, welcome to
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: the pod.
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: Thanks for having me back.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: I mean, it feels like we have been on a
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: roller coaster for weeks now. Just nonstop news. And this
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: is a very exciting news. I'm glad you're here to
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: go through all of this with me.
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: Well, I am very excited because I actually like this
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: roller coaster. This roller coaster is preferable to the other
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: roller coaster we were on.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes. There was a month or three weeks of
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: a really nauseating roller coaster. Now we're on a very
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: exciting one for the last two and a half weeks.
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: This is the better roller coaster, for sure.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: Yes, for sure. So let's start with the Walls Pick itself.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: Where were you when you found out and have you
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: been fully Walls Pilled yet?
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: So I first heard about this while I was sitting
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: in the NBC DC bureau waiting to do hair and makeup.
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: And the energy was so electric. Everyone is waiting. The
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: AP started buzzing about it. And then NBC started reporting
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: on some of its sources. And when people started hearing
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: that it seemed pretty clear it was going to be walls,
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: they were really excited. And so That was interesting to see.
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: I mean, there were a lot of really good candidates
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: being floated. I think it sort of suggests the depth
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: and quality of the bench. But people really seemed excited
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: about Walls. And I have to say, I think I
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: am a little fully Walls-pilled because this man is just
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: so adorable. He thinks turkey is a vegetarian option. He
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: rides on the slingshot with his kids. He's so uncool
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: that he is actually really, really cool. And he seems
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: really nice. And that's such a contrast to the other side,
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: which just seems kind of mean and, I don't know,
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: just mean and angry. And he's just joyful. And that's
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: nice to see. And I get the cynicism around lots
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: of things. I mean, I cover the Supreme Court and
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: Clarence Thomas all the time. So I am as wizened
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: and cynical as they come, But this Santa Claus knockoff
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: has warmed the cockles of my cold, dead heart. I really,
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: I kind of like him.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Did you have any feelings about Walz before this? Or
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: did you sort of come to know Walz as we
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: all have over the last few weeks?
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: Well, who knew Tim Walz before the last two weeks?
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: I mean, he just started coming out and sort of
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: being a surrogate for, you know, keep calm and carry
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: on Democrats. And was such an effective communicator. I think
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: he kind of willed himself into being considered for this.
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: And we all learned about him, I think, as Kamala
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: Harris and everyone else was learning about him. And, you know, so,
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: I mean, I remember hearing his name. I knew that
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: he had appointed Keith Ellison to supervise the prosecution of
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: Derek Chauvin and the other officers involved in the killing
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: of George Floyd. But I don't think I'd really kind
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: of registered what he was doing in Minnesota until he
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: kind of burst onto the stage like America's Next Top Model.
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: So I found out, as I find out most things,
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: sitting at my computer, involved in some sort of text
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: chain with Jon Favreau and Tommy Vitor and Lovett, et cetera.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: And I actually had woken up. I had convinced myself
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: the night before that the way that I would do
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: this if I was the Harris campaign is I would
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: send out a video at 6 in the morning. So
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: to me, that means 3 in the morning this news
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: is coming out. So I woke up, as I do
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: many times a night. I looked at my phone at
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: 3 a.m. No news. But you know what I couldn't
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: really do after that?
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: Go back to sleep.
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: Go back to sleep. So I had a very sleep-addled
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: day waiting for it to come. I actually, not to
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: brag about this, but I knew Tim Walz a while ago.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: I will admit, I never for one second thought he
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: was going to be the VP until maybe the last week.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: But I was around in politics 100 years ago when
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: he ran for Congress the first time. He was this
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: amazing story that people loved because he was this football
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: coach encouraged to run by his students in this district
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: that no one thought a Democrat can win. This was
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: 2006 when we were recruiting all these veterans to run
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: because it was going to be the first election where
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: people had really turned against the Iraq War fully. And
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: he had this ad. I talked about this ad on
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: the podcast last week. It's an amazing ad.
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: Was this the one about his students? Like his students
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: deserved– who went off to fight deserved?
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: The one I'm referring to is his introductory ad that
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: starts with him– like starts with his military service and
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: state champion football coach, the teacher of the year, and
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: then him. It's just like this great ad that was–
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: that I loved at the time. And then– Tim Walz
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: has this very fond place in the hearts of everyone
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: who worked for Barack Obama because no one thought Tim
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: Walz was going to return to Congress if he voted
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: for the Affordable Care Act, and he did anyway.
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: Oh, wow.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: And he said– there was this list of people who
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: were in these very endangered seats heading into that landslide
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: election 2010 who were taking great risk upon themselves to
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: vote for the Affordable Care Act, and Tim Walz is
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: one of a handful of them who said to President
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: Obama– essentially, why run for office if all you want
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: to do is stay in office? And so he voted,
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: and most of them lost, but Tim Walz actually managed
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: to survive and win. And so it's very exciting to
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: see Tim Walz here. If you had asked me to
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: list 15 VP candidates for Kamala Harris a month ago,
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: that would have been chronologically impossible if you'd asked me
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: to do that. Tim Walz would have not made my list,
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: but I really come to think he's a perfect pick.
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: Let me ask that. Why do you think she picked
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: him over all the other people?
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: Also, all of those things. I actually think there is
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: something really refreshing about someone who said years ago and
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: continues to say, what's the point of amassing political capital
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: if you're not going to spend it? And he spent
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: it in really profitable ways in Minnesota. So, you know,
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: he's done things I think are actually progressive, but also
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: makes sense. So I think it's really hard to kind
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: of pigeonhole him. He's a Midwesterner, but he's doing some
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: of these progressive things. And the things that he's doing
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: are just sort of common sense things that his constituents
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: really like. So he's providing opportunities universal school lunch to
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: kids so that poor kids can eat, but they're also
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: not stigmatized when they get this provision. And he's an
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: amazing communicator. I think that's going to be really important
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: because she's going to need an effective surrogate on the stump.
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: Gen Z fucking loves him.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: And Which is wild.
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: No, but also just like, of course, he's like the
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: Coach Taylor from Friday Night Lights. He doesn't look like
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: Kyle Chandler, but he acts like Kyle Chandler. And I
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: think he's really inspiring and people like him. And I
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: truly believe that Gen Z can turn this election if
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: it wants to. It is like a sleeping giant of
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: an electorate that hasn't really been turned on. And if
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: He turns them on, then God love him. Let him
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: do that. I think he's going to balance out aspects
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: of this ticket. I mean, you can't really just sideline
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: this as some kind of California ticket. He's a Midwesterner.
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: Even if his politics are very progressive, he does have
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: these Midwestern sensibilities that I think make it very difficult
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: to just write him off as a leftist and subsequently
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: to write the entire ticket off as this sort of
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: pinko communist California ticket. I think all of those things
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: are really appealing.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: You know, in reading the reporting on this, it sort
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: of jives with what I kind of expect in the
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: sense that she just really likes Tim Walz, right? Like
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: when you were picking your vice president, you're picking someone
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: who's going to be in most of your meetings for
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: four to eight years.
• 7:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: The president and the vice president have lunch together once
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: a week.
• 7:40
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: So it's not just like, is this person going to
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: deliver me this date? And they do this. It's like,
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: I have to hang out with this person all the time.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: And Tim Walz seems like somebody you would want to
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: hang out with for sure, right?
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: I also think there's an additional level of this. And
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: I think other women of color... who have existed in
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: the workplace will know what I mean. You can have
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: people who are on your team who are not necessarily
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: working to your benefit. They don't understand the assignment. And
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: the assignment, when you're the principal, is to support you
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: and to do it fully and joyfully. And I think
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: one of the things that she probably really likes about
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: Tim Walz is that he has a kind of Joe
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: Biden-esque quality about him. I think one of the things
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: I liked about Joe Biden was that he happily and
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: cheerfully talked shotgun for the first Black president for eight years,
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: sidelining his own ambition to do it. And he did
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: so happily and joyfully. And I think that there's something
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: about Tim Walz that speaks in the same register. He's
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: not going to mind ceding the stage to her. He
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: gets that she's the principal. He's there to be the
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: running back, to do whatever she needs to do to
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: get the ball down the field. But he understands that
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: he's the number two. And I think that's really important
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: for the first woman president.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: I think that's such a great point. And there's just
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: something about people who end up being vice president who
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: never expected to be president. Tim Wallace has never done
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: a single thing that most governors imagine themselves as president
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: and they're going to do the Iowa JJ dinner. They're
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: going to do the 100 Club in New Hampshire and
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: all that stuff. And they're planning for the day when
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: the world will eventually recognize their talents and charms and
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: make them president. And Tim Walz really hasn't seemed that
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: way at all. He was an accidental politician. He only
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: ran because the students asked him to. And then he
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: lasted longer than he thought he would. And then people
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: were like, you know what? You'd be a great governor.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: You could do some cool stuff. So he ran for governor.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: And so he's just sort of in this to do
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: the right thing. I think that's probably pretty appealing. Joe
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: Biden obviously wanted to be president much of his life.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: He'd run multiple times. But as President Obama's vice president,
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: he never did a single thing to put his ambitions
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: above President Obama's. Even in the moment when he came
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: out for marriage equality before President Obama, none of us,
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: as frustrating as that was for those of us who
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: are working on President Obama's rollout of his position, no
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: one thought he was doing that, Joe Biden was doing
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: that to put himself above President Obama. There was that
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: trust there. That's absolutely essential for the working relationship. The
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: other thing that I think led to this is there
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: is something very balancing to the ticket. Kamala Harris, she
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: is a woman of color. She is from Oakland, California.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: She was a district attorney of San Francisco, California. and
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: who have as your running mate, someone who is from
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: the quintessential Midwestern state. He's a public school teacher, coach,
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: gun-owning veteran from rural Minnesota. That's cultural balance. We should
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: just be clear. I love Tim Walz. I hate J.D.
• 10:38
  Speaker 6: Vance.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: The vice presidential pick adds maybe a point or two
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: or costs maybe a point or two unless you pull
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: a Palin. But there are going to be these voters
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: who are looking for tiebreakers, right? And they all live
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, in more rural areas. Maybe they
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: voted for Obama in 2012, Trump in 2016, Biden in 2020.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: And Tim Wallace can be a tiebreaker, right? It's a
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: validation in some ways of who can, like him speaking
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: about Kamala Harris is going to be very valuable with
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: those voters, I think.
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: Well, I also think that He's very hard to pigeonhole.
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: And I think that's also really valuable in a Veep pic.
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: So it is, I think, easy to pigeonhole her. She's
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: from Oakland, California. You can talk for days about how
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: California is, you know, like you just tax these companies
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: out of existence and they leave and they go to Austin.
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: Tim Walz is a pro-labor governor, but he's also cultivated
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: one of the most thriving economies in the country. Like
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: Minnesota has an amazing economy. There are 15 or so
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: blue chip Fortune 500 companies in Minnesota. He makes clear
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: that you can be pro-labor and it's not anti-business, that
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: these things are not irreconcilable. You can give workers the
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: protections that they want and that they need, and it
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: doesn't affect your bottom line. You can still build a
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: thriving economy. And I think one of the things that
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: was so impressive to me yesterday when the pick was announced,
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: there was a lot of hand-wringing from the business community
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: about there were other candidates that they thought would have
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: been better for business. And then people immediately were like,
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: what are you talking about? Minnesota's great for business. 3M, UnitedHealth, Target.
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: I mean, this is the man who cultivated the conditions
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: for every American to go on a Target run where
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: they are expecting to spend $ 20 and instead they spend $ 220.
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: Like that's economic progress.
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: And I mean, just there aren't a lot of people
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: who could get enthusiastic tweets of support from both AOC
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: and Joe Manchin in like a three-minute period like Tim
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: Walls did. So, I mean, it's just truly great pick. Now,
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: while picking Josh Shapiro wouldn't have guaranteed a win in Pennsylvania,
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: history in the polling says it would be easier with
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: him on the ticket. Any chance this ends up being
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: a major mistake?
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: I don't, I really don't like doing this Monday morning quarterbacking.
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: I think you just, you made your pick and now
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: you lean into it and you run as hard as
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: you can. And I think fundamentally, there was no perfect
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: running mate. There were a lot of really good people.
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: Kelly would have offered a lot, but then there would
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: have been this open Senate seat that would have come
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: up during the midterms that would have been very hard
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: to defend. Beshear was great, did great things in Kentucky
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: on COVID, but you weren't moving a red state like Kentucky.
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: So there was no perfect candidate to be VP. And
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: Shapiro would have brought a lot of great things to
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: the ticket. I think he might have suppressed some of
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: the enthusiasm from young people in part because of his
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: stance on Gaza and the student protest. But I think
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: at bottom, you have to respect the fact that this
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: is a deeply, deeply personal choice. And like all of
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: the things I just said, I mean, this is the
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: first Black woman running as the top of a national ticket.
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: She has to feel fully comfortable with whoever she's picked
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: to be her second. And sometimes that comes down to intangibles.
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: And it's not just about polling. It's not just about
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: someone's record It's literally about how you feel with this
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: person and that's got to be okay too.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: There was no wrong choice here and there was no
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: perfect choice. And Josh Shapiro would have been a great pick.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: Josh Shapiro is someone who, like Kamala Harris, is very
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: familiar to people who were with President Obama early because
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: he also, like the Vice President, endorsed Obama when a
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: lot of people thought that was a really bad political
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: idea and stuck with him through tough times. It is
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: true that a home state governor or senator can add
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: a point or two. And Pennsylvania's been decided by less
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: than a point. But I just don't think, one, the
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: most important part of this decision has to be about
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: governing and how you feel and the chemistry there. But also,
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: it's just you can't make the decision based on one
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: state alone. If you win Pennsylvania and you lose everywhere else,
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: you're still not president, right? And so... Josh Brewer would
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: have been great, but Tim Walsh, I think, brings a
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: lot to the table and across a whole bunch of
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: states that would be very, very valuable, right? You just
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: can't get beyond– there is like no better bio for
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: a politician than veteran, teacher, state champion, football coach, governor.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: Like that is designed in a lab to be appealing.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: And I think he just brings a lot to the table.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: Shapiro would have been great, but just making it a
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: decision solely over one point in Pennsylvania I think is
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: sort of an overly simplistic way to look at it.
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: And big props to Josh Shapiro for showing up at
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: the announcement to support this ticket enthusiastically and wholeheartedly, even
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: while we all understand that he was one of the
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: ones who was considered and he ultimately wasn't successful. I
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: think if he continues to be a surrogate in Pennsylvania,
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: you can get all of the advantages of having him
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: on the ticket. But as you say, there are a
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: lot of other options and doorways that Walls opens up.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: That was a very impressive thing to do under, I'm sure...
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: Imagine the sliding doors moment for his life based on
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: one phone call in the morning. And he gave a
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: great speech. He put his heart into it. And I
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: guarantee you that he is going to work his tail
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: off to deliver Pennsylvania for Kamala Harris and Tim Walz.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: And so you're right. I think you can sort of
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: get the best of both worlds here. Before we go
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: to break, if you're listening to this, you probably, like
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: all of us, have been both fully Walz-pilled and coconut-pilled.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: And surely you're signed up for Vote Save America and
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: ready to knock doors and make calls, right? Another great
• 16:09
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• 16:27
  Speaker 1: of Democracy or Else now from your favorite bookstore or
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: at crooked.com slash books. Harris officially introduced Walls at a
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: rally in Philly yesterday. The place was packed. There was
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: huge energy and excitement. We got to see them appear
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: together for the first time and get a sense of
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: how their messages work together. Here are some of the highlights.
• 16:57
  Speaker 7: To his former high school students, he was Mr.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: Walls.
• 17:02
  Speaker 7: And to his former high school football players, he was Coach.
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: And in 91 days.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: The nation will know Coach Waltz.
• 17:15
  Speaker 7: By another name, Vice President.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: Of the United States.
• 17:21
  Speaker 7: He signed the most significant expansion of voting rights in
• 17:26
  Speaker 7: Minnesota in over 50 years. After Roe was overturned, he
• 17:31
  Speaker 7: was the first governor in the country to sign a
• 17:35
  Speaker 7: new law that enshrined reproductive freedom as a fundamental right.
• 17:40
  Speaker 6: In Minnesota, we respect our neighbors and their personal choices
• 17:43
  Speaker 6: that they make. Even if we wouldn't make the same
• 17:46
  Speaker 6: choice for ourselves, there's.
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: A golden rule.
• 17:48
  Speaker 6: Mind your own damn business. Like all regular people I
• 17:53
  Speaker 6: grew up with in the heartland, JD studied at Yale,
• 17:57
  Speaker 6: had his career funded by Silicon Valley billionaires, and then
• 18:01
  Speaker 6: wrote a bestseller trashing that community.
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: Come on!
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: I can't wait to debate the guy.
• 18:07
  Speaker 6: That is if he's willing to get.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: Off the couch and show up. Melissa, did you get
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: a chance to watch the event? What was your sense
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: of the energy in the room?
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: So I did watch it. I was on Amtrak. So
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: I was using their Wi-Fi, which meant it kept cutting in.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: So pretty spotty, I would guess.
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: So I missed some of that. I'm actually glad to
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: hear the supercut. But wow. I mean, it had all
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: of the great elements, like a really substantial discussion of
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: the legislative record. He was folksy. She introduced him as coach. Like,
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: that's going to get Tommy Tuberville really exercised. I love that.
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: And then at the end, you know, you had the
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: sort of subtle couch necrophilia issue that was like inserted
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: in there. I mean, he's funny and snarky. And I
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: think I kind of loved it. I thought it was
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: a great introduction.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: I love the event. Tim Wallace was amazing. That's a
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: hard thing to do, right? Tim Wallace is the governor
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: of Minnesota. I can't imagine there's a time he's had
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: to speak to a packed basketball arena of people screaming
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: his name. Maybe he has introduced a president coming to him,
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: but nothing like that where he's the headline. We saw
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: this with J.D. Vance at the convention. That's a hard
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: jump to the big leagues, and he killed it in
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: that thing. He was funny. He was charming. He's also–
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: if you'd asked me a few years ago if the
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: one politician in the Democratic Party other than AOC who
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: would truly understand social media and TikTok would be Tim Walz.
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: I would love to know if the couch thing was
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: in the remarks or if that was an ad lib,
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: but it's just smart to throw a little grist to
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: the mill, throw a little chum in the water and
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: get people to do it because it's funny. 99% of
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: people who don't get it will go right over the
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: head and they won't care. It was great.
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: It was the perfect subtweet. I'm not surprised. This is
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: the guy who just kind of decimated the Trump-Vance ticket
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: by just, they're weird. They're weirdos. And that didn't surprise
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: me at all. He was terrific. I'd heard that one
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: of the things he discussed with the Harris vetting team
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: was that he never really used a teleprompter. And so-
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: This is going to be one of his first forays
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: using a teleprompter. It's not easy to use a teleprompter.
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: So I mean, if that was his first shot at it,
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: he cleared the high bar. He was great. He didn't
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: get fumbled up on it, did not knock anything over.
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: He was fantastic.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: It was also, and this has been true over the
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: last few weeks with Harris's events everywhere, it has been
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: so long since we have had that much excitement in
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: these sort of packed arenas of people jumping out of
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: their seats for a Democrat. Obviously, Biden ran in the
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: pandemic in 2020, so we never got to see that.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: There was plenty of enthusiasm for Secretary Clinton, but they
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: sort of got in that campaign a little wrapped around
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: the axle of the campaign, like crowd size comparisons with Trump,
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: and they didn't do those sorts of events. And so
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: it really has been since Obama ran for re-election that
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: we've seen things like this. And it's just.
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: I was around in 2007, 2008, when Obama was running
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: for the first time. And this is the first thing
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: that I've ever seen approximate that kind of energy and
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: the hopefulness. And that part, I think, is actually really important.
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: And again, I keep coming back to the younger voters,
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: like Gen Z voters. they don't remember what that moment
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: felt like. But I think this is that moment for
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: them where they're excited about politics. It just doesn't feel
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: like yet another slide into hell with this election. But
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: the promise of something better. And that's exactly how it
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: felt in 2008.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah. We've lived, for good reason, in a politics of
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: fear for the last decades as Trump was around. Both
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: these elections were about what happens if Trump wins. Not
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: what we can, you know, sort of like what Trump
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: will do to us if he wins. Not what we
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: can do if we win. And we had that in 2008.
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: And then Obama had that again in 2012. And then we,
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: this is the first time. And it's wild. She is
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: the vice president of the United States. But she is
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: the change candidate. She is future. She is hope. And
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: it's just like, it's infectious. I can't even tell you
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: the people in my life who have not talked to
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: me about politics in six years.
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: Who have brought up Kamala Harris and brought up Tim Walz.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: Like they're excited about Tim Walz. Like they've seen him
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: on– like they've seen some of his stuff because they
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: engaged three weeks ago when the vice president got involved.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: She became the nominee. They've seen him. They've seen those
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: clips go viral. And they're just like excited in a
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: way that is just really, really thrilling.
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: I think part of this too is Kamala Harris on
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: the stump as a primary candidate in 2019, 2020. I mean, okay.
• 22:30
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: And I say this as someone who loves her. I
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: am from Oakland, California. I remember when she was AG.
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: I remember when she was DA in San Francisco. I've
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: been in the K-high for a long time now. But
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: she was OK as a primary candidate. She kind of
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: seeded the spotlight to Joe Biden, as she should have,
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: as VP. She is absolutely fantastic on the top of
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: the ticket. So she is overperforming. She has this new
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: partner who is clearly overperforming. And I think together— The
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: energy is just so infectious and the enthusiasm is refreshing
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: and booing. I mean, I think it's a really exciting
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: time to watch politics, to be in politics. If I
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: was like a young person, I am a young person,
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: I guess, but if I were younger than I am,
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: I would be so excited to watch this happening and
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: so excited to vote in November.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: You're right. I remember her announcement speech in 2019. when
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: she had that huge rally in Oakland, and she was amazing.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was there.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: And that was the promise. It was an incredible event.
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: And she was sort of the frontrunner in some cases
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: in that race, because I think Biden hadn't actually gotten
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: in the race yet. And it didn't work after that.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: But what we're seeing now is the talent that people
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: have seen in her for a long time, right? That
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: President Obama saw in her, and the 2020 Democratic primary
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: was a messy primary for She was clearly uncomfortable in
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: how then how that portrayed, but this is like, and
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: obviously she's got, you get a lot of reps, right?
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: She has been, and she has been out there after
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: that sort of first tough year, sort of under the radar,
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: especially the last year. kind of killing it in her events,
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: especially since Dobbs. It really has been since Dobbs.
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: Well, can I do a callback to the Strict Certainly
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: live show at the Howard Theater back in June? So
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: we had as a guest, second gentleman, Doug Emhoff, who
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: came out and spoke with us about what men could
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: do to support reproductive freedom. And we had a surprise
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: guest and it was the vice president. And when Kate
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: and I walked out on that stage, like it was
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: the same time they were seating her in the audience,
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: The applause was so overwhelming. And I couldn't see because
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: the lights are shining in your face, so you can't
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: see what's going on in the audience. I literally thought
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: the applause was for us. And I was like, okay,
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: we are killing it. We are killing it. She's like,
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: calm down. I don't think it's for us. And the
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: lights go down a little. I'm like, oh, yeah, it
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: was for her. It was like we are ancillary here.
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: But I mean, it was so exciting just having her there.
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: And people were really jazzed. So, you know, When there
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: was all of the talk that would Biden drop out,
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: what would happen, I fully believed that if she were
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: at the top of the ticket, she could totally carry
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: it because I saw how stoked people were about her
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: at that live show.
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. So there was a poll out
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: yesterday that showed that 70% of Americans don't know enough
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: about Tim Walz to have an opinion on him. Clearly,
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: one of the focuses of the event was introducing Walz
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: to the American people. The vice president spent a lot
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: of time going through his bio in great detail. Walls
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: sort of reemphasized some key points. What do you think
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: the most compelling parts of his bio or from the
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: remarks yesterday were?
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think one, the combination of both executive
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: and legislative experience is really important. He's done a lot
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: as governor of Minnesota, but he also had some real
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: issues that he had to deal with. He was criticized
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: for his handling of the protests after George Floyd's death.
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: He had to answer for that when he ran for reelection.
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: He did. I think he told a very compelling story.
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: That was important. And then it translated into legislative action,
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: like they passed a police accountability reform bill that allows
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: law enforcement to do their jobs, but also to do
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: them under conditions in which ordinary citizens can expect. measure
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: of public safety. And I think that's really important. So
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: she matched up the record with actual specific discussions of
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: things that he had done, the codification of Roe, which
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: is enormous for many women who are headed to the
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: ballot box this November. Minnesota was the first state, I believe,
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: maybe one of the first states, perhaps even the first state,
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: to actually take steps to ensure protections for abortion access
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: and reproductive freedom in the wake of Dobbs. That's executive
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: actions that preserve the possibility of gender-affirming care for youth
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: and let their parents decide as opposed to allowing state
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: legislators to decide. The menstrual equity bill, I think, is
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: also critically important. You know, Republicans... are calling him Tampon Tim.
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: If I were him, I would make a t-shirt. Yes,
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: I am Tampon Tim and I'm here to stop the
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: red wave. That's why I'm here. And lean into it.
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: I mean, who's mad about providing sanitary napkins and tampons?
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: You guys were wearing sanitary napkins on your ears a
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: month ago. So I thought it was really important that
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: she introduced him as someone who was a person of action,
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: but it was sort of common sense legislation that his
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: constituents wanted, and indeed that the majority of voters support.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought, I mean, his record is a model
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: for what you want a record to be. It is progressive,
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: but it is populist. It is common sense. These are
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: all incredibly popular proposals that he has turned into law.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: I would say the anecdote that I found most heartwarming
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: and maybe said the most about Tim Walz that I
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: think will be very I think could really mean a
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: lot to a lot of people. And there are actually
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: two of them. The first is the story about how
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: he decided to become the faculty advisor for the Gay-Straight
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: Alliance at the school and that he thought it was
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: important for a straight man football coach to do it,
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: what the message with that would send. And what just
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: a way of not just being self-aware, but being empathetic
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: to others and understanding the role and responsibility you have.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: And Yeah.
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: The football coach, right? I mean, I've been covering the
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: Supreme Court on strict scrutiny, and we've been talking about
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: football coaches who want to prey on the 50-yard line
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: in the middle of a public football field at halftime.
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: But here's a guy using his position, using the clout
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: that he has with his students, not to proselytize to them,
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: but literally to lift some of them up and ensure
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: that they feel included.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: You just imagine when people are having the conversation in
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: that time about gay students at the time. And they
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: can say the football coach is okay with it. The
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: defensive coordinator on the state championship football team is okay
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: with it and supports us. That just carries so much
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: weight in a high school. And it's just like, particularly
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: in a rural part of the country, it's just like
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: the football coach is so important and such an influential part.
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: They're like more than the mayor. And to do that
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: just said a lot to me. And then the way
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: he talked about their struggles to have children and using IVF.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: And just like, once again, how... the old white football
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: coach from rural Minnesota, talk about it in that way,
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: something that men almost never talk about in private, let
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: alone in public at a time in which the Republicans
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: are trying to ban IVF. We're having all of these
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: questions around and they're trying to do everything they can
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: to get involved in women's personal lives and to talk
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: about it in that way. It's like that will– like
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: one of the keys to success is making also men
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: care about Dobbs and what Republicans are doing. I just
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: think just– he just is so– Relatable. Comfortable in his
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: own skin.
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: And relatable.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: He just– yeah. It's just– it's really– it's just really,
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: really– it was really great. And people who did not
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: know anything about Tim Walz who watched that came away
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: loving him. People who went into it, favorably disposed to him,
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: came away loving it. I thought it was just– It
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: was great.
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: You know how they did those shirts with a young
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: Doug Emhoff, and he looks like he's straight out of
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: a John Hughes movie with the Laguna Beach t-shirt? They
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: have to do a t-shirt of Tim Walls holding that
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: pig at the state fair. Like that's the t-shirt. Like
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: he's so adorable.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: Have you seen the video of he and his daughter
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: trying to film the PSA for the new hands-free driving law?
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: Oh, that's hilarious too.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: In Minnesota.
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: It's so good. It's so like, I mean, telling his
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: daughter that, having his daughter tell him that turkey is
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: meat and him saying, no, it's Minnesota turkey special. It's
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: just so funny in the state fair. I mean, it
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: really is. He is like, this is the underrated part
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: is that he is great at the internet, which you
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: would not have expected from Tim Walz. And it's a
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: huge asset to the ticket.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: Is it unexpected?
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: I mean, this man is a teacher. He knows how
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: to communicate. Yeah, that's true.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: He knows how to relate to kids.
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think that's really a big part of this.
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: And there was this one tweet this morning, this woman
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: who was like, I'm 100% sure that Tim Walz could
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: teach me how to drive stick shift without making me cry.
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's that kind of energy. Yes.
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: I saw someone else say, Tim Walls can talk about
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: heat pumps and install them. It's great. Now, Strict Scrutiny
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: is a legal podcast, but you guys talk a ton
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: about these hot button social issues that tend to divide
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: the country. Abortion is because of this court and reproductive
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: rights are always at the top of the ticket. What
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: is your take on what Walls' addition to the ticket
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: does in terms of the issue environment around reproductive rights
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: and abortion? What's the Harris-Walls ticket like?
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: No, it's a great question. I'll just say, I know
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: that Strict Scrutiny is a podcast about the Supreme Court
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: and the legal culture that surrounds it, but law and
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: politics are inextricably intertwined. So when we talk about law,
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: you're right.
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: Especially these days.
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: Especially these days when politicians have convictions and they are
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: about issues, but also actual convictions, and we have to
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: deal with that. I think one of the things that
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: strikes me as really unusual about this ticket, and maybe
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: even unprecedented, is that It is a reproductive justice ticket.
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: And I just want to be clear about what I
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: mean by that. Like there is the discussion of reproductive rights,
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: which is typically about access to abortion and access to contraception,
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: about how to not become pregnant or how to stop
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: being pregnant. Black women for many years have been talking
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: about reproductive justice, which is not simply about avoiding pregnancy
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: or avoiding parenthood. but being able to choose whether and
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: how you become pregnant and the conditions under which you parent,
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: if in fact you do choose to become a parent.
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: And it's just a much more capacious frame. And I've
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: always been struck by the fact that Kamala Harris has
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: been talking about reproductive freedom in ways that are really
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: registering in a reproductive justice frame. So it's not just
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: about access to abortion. From the time she was in California,
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: she talked about maternal mortality and maternal morbidity and about
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: the disproportionate rates of maternal mortality among Black women. She
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: talked about access to prenatal and postpartum care. So not
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: just access to abortion, but how are you going to
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: become a parent in ways that are healthful and conducive
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: to your own thriving? And What I like about this
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: ticket in terms of reproductive freedom is that Tim Walz
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: is also talking about these things in a broader frame.
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: So yes, he signed the protections of Roe into Minnesota's
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: state law, but the menstrual equity bill, the gender-affirming care bill,
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: the universal school lunch bill that he signed into law,
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: those are all about reproductive justice too. Like the idea
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: that you have these children and you raise them in
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: conditions where you don't have to worry about whether they're
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: eating at school. Like there's lunch provided, they can eat
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: and they can learn. And there's someone, not just you,
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: thinking about their broader health, that if your kid is
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: questioning their gender identity, You're not assailed by these legislators
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: who are trying to make this choice for you. That's
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: a reproductive justice issue. The fact that he is a
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: hunter and a veteran, but he supports common sense gun regulations,
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: that's a reproductive justice issue. Gun violence is a scourge
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: on so many communities and how parents raise their children
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: in these conditions where violence is literally around the corner.
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: So to me, what's great about this ticket is not
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: that it's about reproductive freedom in the traditional sense, but
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: that it's really a capacious frame that's thinking about what
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: are the conditions in which we exercise our reproductive capacity
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: and then parent in ways that are consistent with our
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: values and with the long-term health of our communities and
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: our children.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: That's a really smart and interesting way to think about this.
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: And it just says so much about what Wallace brings
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: to the ticket, that he can reinforce that frame from
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: the vice president's experience.
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: As a white guy.
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: As a white guy. As a white guy. Who would
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: believe that? I always believed it, Dan. You're exactly right.
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: I always believed it.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: We don't get it right often, but Tim Walz is
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: making a good case for us. All right. Donald Trump
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: and the Republicans wasted no time attacking the choice of walls.
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: Their arguments were all over the map, to say the least.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: Let's take a listen. What bothers me about Tim Walz
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: is the stolen valor garbage. Do not pretend to be
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: something that you're not.
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: This is a ticket that would want this country to
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: go communist immediately, if not sooner. We want no security.
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: We want no anything. He's very heavy into transgender. Anything
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: transgender he thinks is great. This is a shocking pick.
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: And I think it's very insulting to Jewish people. I
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: think that any Jewish person who votes for a Democrat
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: or in this case, these people, but who votes for
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: a Democrat should have their head examined because everyone thought
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: it was going to be Shapiro. It turned out not
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: to be Shapiro. I have very little doubt that it was,
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: you know, not for the reason we're talking about. It
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: was because of the fact that he's Jewish and they
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: think they're going to offend somebody else.
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: Truly wild stuff from these Yahoo's. Um, Based on reporting
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: from Politico and elsewhere, it seems like they've settled on
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: two of these crazy arguments. The first is that Walz
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: is a radical liberal. And second, that not picking Shapiro
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: is evidence of some sort of rampant anti-Semitism within the
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: Democratic Party. Let's start with the first argument. What do
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: you think? Can the Republicans make a gut-owning football coach
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: from rural Minnesota seem like a dangerous lefty? Not to
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: lead the witness here to use one of your terms, but.
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: I think they're going to try. I think one of
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: the things I think is going to be difficult about
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: painting him as a pinko commie is that there's so
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: much support for the things that he's doing. Like, right now,
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: drawing the contrast between the Republicans is they hate feeding
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: school kids. Like, they don't think these kids should not
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: get fed at school, whereas he thinks that they should
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: be fed so they can go and learn. And if
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: they need the food, they shouldn't be stigmatized for taking it.
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: And that's the reason why it's universally provided. If that's
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: the contrast you wanted to draw, we should say bring
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: it on. That's a really important contrast. The party of
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: compassion versus the party of lock her up, I guess.
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: But to me... if you want to call this communism,
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: I think there are a lot of people in the
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: voting public who are like, I don't think that's communism.
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: I think that's just like being a good neighbor. And
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: I think Walls is great at talking about this, like
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: talking about the other side is these are my neighbors.
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: Like I may not agree with them, but I have
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: to live with them and we have to find a
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: way to work together. And so I think he is
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: kind of practicing a politics where he's not afraid to
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: call them out, but he's also not afraid to bring
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: them in. Whereas they're just like Like, we want away
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: from these people. We don't want anything to do with them.
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: We don't want anything to do with their politics. But
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: their politics are actually shared by a wide number of
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: people in the public.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I just... I think it's going to be really,
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: really hard to convince the public that Tim Walz is
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: some sort of radical lefty, right? For a lot of
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: the public, they don't go through the white papers and
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: look at all the policies. I don't know, Dan.
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: Santa Claus is pretty much a communist. He's like giving
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: all these presents to kids and.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: Their parents aren't. But because he's an old bearded white guy,
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: no one thinks he's a communist. But the elves, the elves.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: The elves. It's like ideology, how people see ideology is
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: more about identity than policy positions. And it's just, he
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: does not code as a radical lefty.
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: He doesn't code as a radical lefty. And I hope
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: this comes up in the debate with J.D. Vance, if
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: we have one. The things that he has done as
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: governor of Minnesota are the same kinds of programs that
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: enabled a young J.D. Vance, when he was going by
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: a completely different name, to survive while his mother was
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: struggling with drug addiction, like while his grandmother was raising him.
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: And J.D. Vance talks about that in Hillbilly Elegy. Those
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: government programs were the bridge that allowed them to keep
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: going as a family. Why then are you against them now?
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: And why are you pillorying Tim Walz? Because he did
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: more of that as governor.
• 39:28
  Speaker 7: Right.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: But these things are also popular, right? Free lunch, popular.
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: Free college for people who make less than $ 80, 000, popular.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: Paid family medical leave, popular. Legalizing marijuana, incredibly popular. And
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: these things are popular, not just like 51% popular, they're
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: like 60, 70, 80% popular with large swaths of the
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: Trump base being okay with it. And so Tim Walz
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: is of a, like he is a progressive, but he
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: is a populist progressive in the like Sherrod Brown mold, right?
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: Where it's just that really works in that part of
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: the country. I think it's just gonna be really hard
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: to make him seem crazy. And even if they break–
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: it's a kind of– I hope they spend all their
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: time doing it. Focus on that, not the vice president, right?
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: Because that is a– I don't think they can succeed.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: And if they did succeed, I don't think it would
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: make a huge difference. And so they are clearly– it
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: is interesting that Walls wasn't– maybe if you were ranking it,
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: you would have thought Shapiro was the most likely pick.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: But they had a list of three for a week now,
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: and they haven't really– they didn't really prepare for this
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: one in any way, shape, or form and seemed pretty flummoxed,
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: much as they were by Kamala Harris taking over, another
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: thing that was maybe not definite, but certainly foreseeable. And
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: it's interesting that they were not ready for this, and
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: that's the best they have. But I take a lot
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: of solace in the fact that they don't have anything
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: better for that than Tim Walz.
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean, that was predictable too. I mean, their
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: whole approach to governing was like, so we actually have
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: to govern this thing? I mean, the whole four years
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: was like, wait, how do you do this? And I
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: think we're seeing them getting caught flat footed. And to
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: be clear, I do not think this is going to
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: be a walk in the park. I think the level
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: of distortion in the electoral landscape because of gerrymandering, because
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: of voter suppression is really, really complicated. And it does
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: mean that if Democrats want to win and to do
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: so decisively so that there aren't a ton of legal
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: challenges going forward about who won the election, Democrats are
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: really going to have to flood the zone. Turnout's going
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: to have to be enormous. You are going to have
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: to overwhelm them in order to run up the numbers
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: to make it very clear that Kamala Harris and Tim
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: Walz won, and it wasn't even close. I think that
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: has to happen.
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: What do you think of the anti-Semitism attack? Can they
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: really make that stick?
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's hard to make the anti-Semitism
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: claim stick when, you know, the candidate who's running for
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: president goes to bed every night with an observant Jew.
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: I mean, you can try, I guess. I think for
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: most people, you can understand that there were lots of
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: things that Shapiro could have brought to this ticket. And
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: there were a lot of things that might have been
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: disadvantages that he could have brought. It's not just the
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: question of Gaza, although I do think that and the
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: question of the student protesters certainly had some relevance, especially
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: when thinking about how to relate to younger voters. But
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: I mean, there are other things too that I think
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: may have made Shapiro a less exciting pick relative to Walls.
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: Same for Bashir, same for Kelly. I mean, these are
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: very practical considerations that are then leavened with these very
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: personal considerations. So I think that's the way to deal
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: with the antisemitism. We're not antisemitic. It's a personal thing.
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: There's chemistry, there's vibes. My dog agrees.
• 42:47
  Speaker 4: Exactly.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: One thing I will say is, There is a long
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: history of Republicans using these false charges of anti-Semitism against Democrats,
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: particularly Democrats of color. They happen to Barack Obama all
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: the time.
• 42:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: There's a real effort to that. That's a really good point.
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: That would be very real.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: The idea, though, that because she did not pick a
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: candidate who happens to be Jewish is evidence of anti-Semitism
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: is absurd because guess who also picked a vice president
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: recently and did not pick someone from the short list
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: who is Jewish? Donald Trump. Guess which one, as you said.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: Doug Hemhoff. Second gentleman, Jewish. Donald Trump tends to die
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: with Nazis, right? Has called them very fine people. It's
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: just it's an absurd thing. And so I like I
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: don't we I think the Harris-Walls community is going to
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: have to watch some of the really pretty gross under
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: the radar stuff to try to target Jewish voters. But
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: as as a broad attack about the Walls pick, I
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: think it's kind of ridiculous. Now, Walls and Harris were
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: scheduled to do five rallies in five battleground states this week.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: The rally they had in North Carolina for later in
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: the week was canceled due to weather from Hurricane Debbie. Trump,
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: on the other hand, has only one event this week,
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: which is a rally in Bozeman, Montana, which is not
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: exactly a battleground state. But he did announce he's going
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: to be interviewed by Elon Musk on Monday, so I
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: guess he's doing some stuff. Why do you think Donald
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: Trump is so absent from the trail? This is a
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: very sparse schedule 90 days from the election.
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: I mean, does this surprise you? Like, I watched The
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: Apprentice in the early 2000s. Like, Donald Trump did fuck
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: all on that show. I mean, he literally showed up
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: at the beginning, announced the project, kind of intermittently showed
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: up to ogle some of the contestants, and then showed
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: up at the end to fire someone. Like, this is
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: business as usual. And I think this was also the
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: way he ran his administration. I mean, there was, like,
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: I didn't see a lot of action from him. And
• 44:33
  Speaker 3: I think, you know, that was one of the reasons
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: why I think the attacks on Joe Biden when he
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: was the nominee were so galling at this idea that,
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: you know, Joe Biden is Sleepy Joe and he's not energetic. Like,
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: neither are you, dude. And That's okay. That's kind of
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: what you do when you're in your 70s, kind of
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: kick back. You're not working a full-time job, but you're
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: also not running for president. So I'm not surprised by this.
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: I think this is par for the course. And then
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: you leaven his natural proclivity toward being lazy with being
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: an older person. I think it's not surprising that he's
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: not out stumping hard.
• 45:09
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: You would think he would work harder to stay out
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: of prison since that's his primary impetus.
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: Oh, he's working really hard on that.
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah. You're right. He is lazy and he's entitled. And
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: three weeks ago, he thought he was cruising to the presidency,
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: which is why he scheduled this rally in Bozeman, Montana.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: The reason you go to Bozeman, Montana is not to
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: win the White House. It's to have a Republican Senate
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: when you're president, because that's a rally to defeat John Tester,
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: not to defeat Kamala Harris. And I think they just
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: don't know what they're... And they thought they could run...
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: If you're running against Joe Biden... who was also doing
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: one or two, he was doing more than Trump for sure,
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: but he was doing one or two events a week.
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: Here you have Kamala Harris. She's doing two rallies today.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: She's going to do more today than Donald Trump has
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: done in the last two weeks, right?
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: I'm just going to say, as a Jamaican, we always
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: have three or four jobs. She can do this. This
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: is part of, it's what we do. It's what we do.
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: Yes, she can handle it. Melissa, before we go, I
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: wanted to get your take on some recent legal developments
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: that we haven't talked about because we haven't had anyone
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: on the podcast recently who's made it through law school.
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: John Lovett and his LSAT score.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: He's only brought it up once or twice.
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: Don't worry.
• 46:10
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: Let's start with the Supreme Court. President Biden recently announced
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: his support for, and then Kamala Harris immediately endorsed, a
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: series of reforms to the Supreme Court, including term limits
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: and ethics reform. A decision that was validated by a
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: report in the New York Times this week that Justice
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: Thomas had gone on even more junkets paid for by
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: the billionaire Harlan Crowe. What do you think about the
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: reforms and this latest news about one of your favorite justices?
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: Let me do it in reverse. Was anyone even surprised
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: by this?
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: I was going to say your favorite justice, but I
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: knew that was probably your... Sarcastically, I knew that was Alito,
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: so I had to put it in the plural.
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: So many to choose from. There are just so many
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: to choose from. I thought it was hilarious that this
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: whole thing about Clarence Thomas and the other trips, I
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: don't even think it registered with the public. You're like,
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: Clarence Thomas accepting freebies? Again, some more? It was just
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: sort of like, okay, more of the same.
• 46:59
  Speaker 4: It's fine.
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: It's fine. I think people are just truly over it.
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: And it's just become a kind of oversaturation, like what
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: else is going to happen? And it's almost like he's
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: trolling us at this point. So there's that. And that's
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: all I'm going to say about it. I do think
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: that Biden's decision to issue this proposal about Supreme Court
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: reform is really, really important. Not because I think it's
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: going to be successful. I don't think anything is going
• 47:24
  Speaker 3: to happen before the election. And I think you're going
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: to need A wider majority in the Senate in order
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: to get any of this to happen. But it means
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: that one, he has zero fucks left to give. And
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: he's now devoting it to this question, which has been
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: a huge issue that many of us wish he had
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: been more forceful on during the four years of his
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: term in office. So I think this is great. And
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: I think it's great that he's doing this. I will
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: emphasize that these proposals are very modest reforms. The term limits,
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: that's something that every constitutional court around the world already has.
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: We're the outliers here. The proposal to have a binding
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: code of ethics, that's low-hanging fruit, too. It's just the
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: court won't do it. The most interesting proposal is the
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: constitutional amendment to overrule Trump versus the United States. That's
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: the recent presidential immunity case. That, I think, is the
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: biggest lift because it would require a constitutional amendment and
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: the most significant thing. But I just want to emphasize,
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: he is not talking about packing the court. He is
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: not talking about recalibrating or rebalancing the court. These are
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: all really modest proposals. So the thing that I think
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: is great about it is that he's willing to talk
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: about it. He's willing to inject it into electoral discourse.
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: And I love that Kamala Harris has doubled down on
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: it because it means that the Supreme Court can be
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: a part of the electoral discourse going into November, which
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: Democrats have almost never done when stumping for their particular candidates.
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: And I think the court has to be on the ticket.
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: And it has to drive not only the race for
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: the presidency, it should also drive the race for the Senate.
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: And everyone should be talking about it. We could actually
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: impeach Clarence Thomas and Sam Alito if we had a
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: wider majority in the Senate. And so court reform in
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: all of its many facets has to be part of
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: how we talk about what's at stake in this election.
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the most notable, I agree with you
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: that reforms are more important. modest than I would like. Obviously,
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: nothing is going to happen in the near term. But
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: there is– it does feel like a watershed moment that
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: the ultimate institutionalist, the former chair of the Judiciary Committee,
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: the one who is more reticent than anyone else in
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: the party to criticize the court publicly, was willing to
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: go this way.
• 49:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: Whatever happens next, it makes it easier for, we hope,
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: President Harris to be able to take this on next time.
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: He creates a permission structure for Democrats who were maybe
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: worried about the politics or worried about the precedent or
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: the norm busting of these sorts of reforms to do it.
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: So I think it's a very, you know, it's not
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: everything I would want, but the fact that Joe Biden,
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: of all people, did it. And what is interesting enough
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: was going to do it. if he was still running
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: for president. Like this was signaled as something, this was
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: not something he was like, oh, now I'm not on
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: the balance. I mean, he was playing, this was, they
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: had booked that venue when he was still running and
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: they went ahead with it anyway. And so I think
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: that was a, I think it's just, We have to
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: do something about the court. It is what you guys
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: talk about all the time. And Joe Biden has moved
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: the ball forward in a way that he did not
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: have to, but I think is very consequential.
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: Well, and the fact that he did, I mean, that
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: just shows if an institutionalist is over this court, like
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: we all should be over this court.
• 50:34
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: Okay. Finally, after a very long and unnecessary delay that
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: involved a president getting immunity, the January 6th case has
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: finally been sent back to Judge Chutkin's courtroom and What
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: happens now? Any chance we get some action before the election?
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: Just give us an update. We used to follow this
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: every single minute of the day, and then we've been
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: on this, as we mentioned, rollercoaster for the last month.
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: So what do we need to know?
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: All right. So what kind of action are you seeking?
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: Frankly, anything. I mean, I would like to see Trump
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: frog march to jail, but I have leavened my expectations
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: that will happen before the election. Will we get a hearing?
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: Will there be testimony? What are we going to get here?
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: I'm glad you're being realistic about this.
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: What's the next thing?
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: All right. So I'm glad you're being realistic about this.
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: So The case is back with Judge Chutkin, and she's
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: ultimately going to be forced to determine what aspects of
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: the alleged conduct that took place in the run-up to
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: January 6th, which of those actions were quote-unquote official actions
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: and therefore immunized from prosecution, which were unofficial actions and
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: can be subject to prosecution. And She has set an
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: August 9th deadline for a status report that both sides
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: will file jointly. So they're going to have to agree
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: on a kind of timeline for how this is going
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: to play out and how they're going to address these questions.
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: I imagine that in the process of trying to work
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: out that timeline, there's going to be some push and pull,
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: maybe some delays on that. But there's supposed to be
• 51:58
  Speaker 3: a meeting or sort of, I guess, a hearing of
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: the party's on August 16th that's going to determine the
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: pretrial schedule. I imagine that one of the things that
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: will be set at that meeting, if they can agree
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: to the schedule, is a date for some kind of
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: hearing where Judge Chuckton will hear evidence about whether or
• 52:19
  Speaker 3: not certain aspects of that conduct were official and that
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: which was unofficial. And my co-author on the Trump indictments,
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: Andrew Weissman, has, I think, for months said that this
• 52:28
  Speaker 3: might be the closest that we get to some kind
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: of public airing about what actually happened on January 6th
• 52:36
  Speaker 3: and the events leading up to January 6th. Maybe we
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: have testimony from Mike Pence about this. I mean, all
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: of this could happen as she tries to sort of
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: suss out what is official, what is unofficial, and therefore
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: what is subject to prosecution. But I don't think we
• 52:53
  Speaker 3: are going to actually resolve any of these questions to
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: the point where we can get to a trial before November.
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: And We've been saying that for months. On strict scrutiny,
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: we said as early as March that it was unlikely
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: because of the Supreme Court's delay that we would ever
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: get to a trial on this. I think the fact
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: of a hearing on these questions about what's official and unofficial,
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: that might be the best that we can hope for,
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: for a public airing of what happened on January 6th.
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: Hey, look, I'll take it, right? Public airing, a little
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: focus on Trump's actions on January 6th before the election
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: seems interesting for the persuaded voters out there.
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: But that's, again, why the election is so important. I mean,
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: you've said this multiple times today. Donald Trump is running
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: for president, so he doesn't go to jail. If he
• 53:40
  Speaker 3: wins the presidency, we're not going to have these trials
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: at all. He's going to direct his new attorney general
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: to kill these prosecutions. He will not get sentenced for
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: the New York convictions because we've never had a situation
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: where a sitting president has been convicted and sentenced, and
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: I doubt we will. And it's very likely he'll figure
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: out a way to kill the Georgia prosecution. So the
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: stakes of this election are not just about the Supreme Court,
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: not just about abortion rights, not just about voting rights.
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: It's about whether or not we're going to have accountability.
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: If Harris and Walz win, these prosecutions will go forward.
• 54:17
  Speaker 3: And if they don't win, they will not. It's as
• 54:20
  Speaker 3: simple as that.
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: That seems like a great place to end it. Melissa,
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: thanks so much for co-hosting today. John and I will
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: be back in your feed on Friday morning with another podcast.
• 54:28
  Speaker 4: Thanks.
• 54:30
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